The American Musical w/ Ben West

Summary

Broadway Breakdown — “The American Musical” with Ben West
Podcast Summary
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Ben West (theater historian and author of The American Musical: Evolution of an Art Form)
Date: July 11, 2024

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Matt Koplik welcomes Ben West, noted theater historian and author, to trace and dissect the origins, misconceptions, and evolution of the American musical. Their lively, passionate conversation charts the art form’s development from minstrel shows to modern masterpieces, tackles persistent myths about Broadway history, and offers advice for young writers and theater lovers. The discussion mixes deep facts, personal experiences, and opinionated (often hilarious) commentary in classic Broadway Breakdown fashion.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben West’s Musical Roots

• [07:22] Ben discusses his early fascination with theater—putting on puppet shows and musicals as a child in Chicago and Miami.
• His first Broadway show was “Sunset Boulevard” with Glenn Close (and Alice Ripley), a trip that included a ticket scam and a happy ending at the Minskoff Theatre.
• [10:09] “My mom fell in love with Alice Ripley. And I get it. Especially 90s Alice Ripley is prime.”

Memorable Quote:

“I was here for what, 10 minutes... I got the whole situation in 10 minutes. It’s the beginning of Thoroughly Modern Millie. Welcome to New York, it’s been waiting for you.” — Matt ([12:29])

2. Formative Shows and Early Influences

• The impact of formative musicals like “The Fix” (Donmar, London, 1997) and “Triumph of Love” (Broadway, closing weekend).
• The importance of rare experiences: “That’s a very fortunate one to see.” — Ben ([16:12])

3. Discovering Theater History

• Matt and Ben swap stories about the books that opened up Broadway history (“Opening Nights on Broadway,” Stanley Green’s “Show by Show”).
• [18:22] Ben talks about Cy Coleman’s “The Life” souvenir program leading him to discover columnist Lee and the deep well of cast recordings.
• [20:05] Discussion of classic theater history books being selective (“They’re making no illusions that this is a complete... it’s just some key shows”).

4. Misconceptions About Musical Theater History

Ben highlights “myths that just snowballed”:

• [23:23] The Oklahoma! Myth:
  • “Oklahoma! is the first integrated book musical” — Not true. Earlier shows were striving for story integration and structure.
• Review and Burlesque:
  • Modern understanding often mistakes revue (scripted variety without story, historically vital) for compilation style like “Fosse.”
  • Burlesque pre-1930s was more comedy/slapstick than striptease.
• Formulaic “Golden Age” Myths:
  • Pre-1970s musicals dismissed as “one story, one sound, one set of characters, weak women, and nothing to do with society, politics, culture” are “completely false on its face.”
• [27:26] Reference to current figures (e.g., Lear deBessonet at Encores!) misunderstanding or mischaracterizing the era.

Notable Rant:

“If you think that every show pre-1970 was that, why are you in theater? For every ‘Bloomer Girl,’ there is a musical with actually a great female character. Calm down.” — Matt ([27:26])

5. Correcting the Narrative: Examples & Counterarguments

• [27:56] Ben cites “Lady in the Dark” (1941): strong women, non-traditional romance, psychological depth—defying stereotypes of the era.
• Refutes Sondheim’s claim that Golden Age songs were all AABA:
  • “It’s very popular, but it’s not the only structure... especially in Tin Pan Alley.”

6. The Progression of the Art Form

• [34:44] More Than Nostalgia:

  • Musicals up to the 1960s were driven by a quest for artistic maturity and narrative excellence, not just escapism.
  • Writers then balanced artistic ambition with audience appeal, a delicate blend sometimes lost today.

• [39:20] “You have to also write for an audience... the medium should evolve, but not hold people at arm’s length.” — Matt

• [41:02] Ben’s challenge to younger writers:

  • Ignoring Rodgers & Hart, Hammerstein, Frank Loesser, etc. leaves a “gap in excellence, professionalism, storytelling” for new generations.

Memorable Quote:

“It matured in the middle of the 20th century... dismissing the works prior to that, you are missing possibilities of excellence... 1,000%.” — Ben ([41:02])

7. Tracing The Roots: Where Did the American Musical Come From?

• [44:25] The origins:
  • Minstrelsy (1843), variety shows, burlesque (comedy-forward in early 1900s), Gilbert & Sullivan’s influence, influx of Black musical theatre.
  • “It’s not exactly a straight line... it’s a complicated scene-scape of different styles and forms” — Ben ([45:59])
• Debunking the “Black Crook Myth”: Not really the “first” American musical, but famous due to its long run and spectacle ([49:06]–[52:48]).

8. Shifts Toward Integration

• [56:35] Princess Theater musicals (Kern, minor integration), and increasing sophistication in the integration of song and story through the 20th century. Opera and vaudeville both provided influences in structure and performance style.
• [58:12] Vaudeville’s impact: sharpness, immediacy, “five minutes to put over your act”—these values deeply infect later musical construction.

9. Surprises in Research: Nightclub Influence

• [60:38] Ben shares fascination at discovering how integral nightclub revues were to Broadway’s development in the teens–forties.
• Nightclubs functioned like mini-theaters, often importing entire elaborate stage shows to Broadway.
• “There’s not even a line that exists in terms of separating legitimate shows from nightclubs...” — Ben ([63:44])

10. Major Milestones & Lost Shows: “Shuffle Along,” “Show Boat,” and More

• [67:35] “Shuffle Along” (1921):
  • Huge for Black artistry, catalyzed the Harlem Renaissance, launched careers of Florence Mills and Paul Robeson.
  • “Not the first Black musical but a culmination — it was absolutely an incontrovertible milestone...” ([69:20])
  • Noted the critical (and fastidiously accurate!) but unflashy contributions of artists like Bob Cole, Alex Rogers, Henry Creamer.
• “Show Boat” (1927):
  • Not the first “book musical” but a technical and tonal milestone, integrating strong narrative, music, and challenging subject matter (notably race).

11. 1930s–1960s: Era Definitions and Trends

• [87:49] Ben structures theater history by stylistic “eras,” not strict decades to better serve the art’s evolution:
  • 1920s: Flapper musicals, intimate revues, a move away from earlier extravaganza.
  • 1930s–40s: Emergence of “sophisticated revue” (Dietz, Yip Harburg, Kurt Weill, etc.), more literary content, further integration of ballet and modern dance.
  • Notable: Disappearance of Black authors from Broadway but continued, if modest, presence of Black performers (Ethel Waters, etc.).

12. “Oklahoma!” and the Folktale Wave

• [100:16] After “Oklahoma!” (1943), there’s a drive for storytelling excellence and integration, but not a single formula or template.
• Cautioning against the industry’s overemphasis on “I want songs” or rigid templates — the best musicals each have distinct architecture.
• [104:28] “Guys and Dolls” vs. “Gypsy” vs. “Chorus Line”: all exceptional, none fitting a cookie-cutter.

13. The Value of Studying History: For Writers and Audience

• [108:11] Ben describes the craft of musical storytelling as a “rigorous creative science,” essential for today’s writers to study in context.
• The book prioritizes not just canonical works, but overlooked shows and epochs, with the aim of providing a “jumping off point” for deeper exploration.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Matt (re: misconceptions):
  "If you think all pre-1970s musicals are weak women, one sound... why are you in theatre?" ([27:26])

• Ben (on history's function):
  “History is not just facts and figures. It is prospects and possibilities.” ([107:00])

• On the marathon of nightclub-to-Broadway transitions:
  “There’s not even a line... separating legitimate shows from nightclubs.” — Ben ([63:44])

• On forms and formulas:
  “There’s no one formula. If you look at the exceptionally well written musicals... all are individual in their character and the way they operate... I’m very cautious about saying there’s a particular formula.” — Ben ([102:12])

• The “Al Jolson–Taylor Swift” Moment ([77:15]): Matt: “Al Jolson, the Taylor Swift of his day. That might have to go on merch.”

• On what musical theater means to the American experience:
  “The stage is the quickest way to the people.” — Florence Mills, quoted by Ben ([79:49])

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Essential Timestamps

• 07:22–10:09 — Ben’s first theater experiences, first Broadway show
• 15:29–16:50 — “Triumph of Love” and formative theater moments
• 20:05–20:32 — The bias of early musical theater history books
• 23:23–27:56 — “Oklahoma!” myth, revue and burlesque misconceptions, challenge to current artistic directors
• 45:59–49:06 — Mapping the origins of the American musical
• 52:48–53:40 — Princess musicals, their place in development
• 60:38–64:17 — Nightclubs as a precursor and their overlooked theater legacy
• 67:35–73:29 — The importance and (mis)understanding of “Shuffle Along” and “Show Boat”
• 87:49–93:10 — How Ben divides up the timeline, key trends in 1930s–1940s
• 100:16–103:28 — “Oklahoma!” and the dangers of formula

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Where to Find Ben West and His Book

• The American Musical: Evolution of an Art Form is available:
  • Online (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc.)
  • In-person (Drama Book Shop, Museum of Broadway gift shop, Theatre Circle in NYC)
• Ben West Musicals website: benwestmusicals.com
• Instagram: @benwestmusicals

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Final Thoughts & Tone

Matt and Ben’s conversation is spirited, detail-rich, occasionally foul-mouthed, and always opinionated, blending deep knowledge with a playful, “theater geek” energy. The episode bursts with insider references, excavated facts, and myth-busting. Both speakers emphasize how learning the real, messy, multi-threaded history of musical theater can enrich creators and audiences alike — and how “everything old” is worth a fresh look.

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Closing Diva

For the outro, the guest chooses a “deep cut”: Belle Baker’s “I’ve Got the Yes, We Have No Bananas Blues,” a novelty piece that matches the episode’s delight in comedy history and forgotten gems.

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To learn more, dig up the book, subscribe to the Broadway Breakdown Discord, or revisit this episode’s timestamps.

Transcript

[Matt Koplik]

Hey guys, it's Matt giving you a quick update before our interview with Mr. Ben West. First, I want to apologize from last week. I had the venue wrong for BroadwayCon. I didn't check the website. I just went with where it was last year because that's all I knew. And that's when I did my panel. Or rather I should say when I guested on a panel. Last year it was at the Marriott. This year it is at the Hilton in Midtown. So if you are interested in going to BroadwayCon, that is where it's going to be on 6th Aven. The date is still correct, July 27th. We still don't have a time slot. We are almost ready to announce the guest or guests depending on how it all shapes up. But BPN will be confirming with me where they are at sometime today or first thing in the morning on Thursday when this episode drops and we will have everything locked in. So hopefully by the next episode we will have the official announcement of that. Other points of business, if you haven't joined yet, please I would love it if you joined the Broadway Breakdown Discord Channel. I will have the link once again in the episode description. In our first week we have almost 50 members and it's going really great. We have sub channels to talk about new episodes of Broadway Breakdown, to talk about sort of theater in general, ticketing advice for, you know, if you need tips on Rush or Lotto or discounted tickets or whatever, stuff like that, and then a whole random thread to just sort of talk about movies, books, whatever, the whole world and culture at large. But it's been a lot of fun and we have had a nice discussion prior to the Once Upon a Mattress casting coming out, discussing who we were thinking could possibly get put into the show and then when the casting was announced talking about that. And there's been some talk about the nine production or semi concert production that's happening at Kennedy center this summer. It's a fun time and anyone who joins you'll be warmly welcomed. It's a good group and just keeps growing day by day. So yeah, please join us there. And last but not least, we have two new reviews to read and I wanted to do it now because if I didn't read them for this episode it would be like another three weeks till you got to hear your handiwork. So I want to give you guys your roses now please play the Light and the Piazza Overture Music 5 stars One of the best Broadway podcasts out there. Every episode of this show is like having a long nuanced debate with a friend who knows nearly everything there is to know about modern Broadway. When it comes to matters of opinion, Matt and I don't agree all the time or even most of the time. But I look forward to his show every week and appreciate his thoughtful commentaries on shows past and present. His guests are just as knowledgeable as he is. They're a treat every time. Just a real gem of a show all around. Thank you very much, Liz. That's a wonderful review to get. And listen, I've said this before, I'll say it again. You don't have to agree with me. If I can get you to understand my point of view and you still don't agree, but you can get where I'm coming from, then I think I've done about as good a job as anyone can. I don't love it when people just agree, you know, I would love it if more people agree with me, but I don't want it to always be that because how else am I gonna, you know, get better? Next review, 5 stars. An updated review with an exclamation point. I haven't left a review since the old version of this podcast, but now that I visit New York yearly for a Broadway trip every spring, I think it is due for an updated review. Matt transparently lets the listener into the Broadway community scene unlike anyone else in the industry. His investigative breakdowns into the musicals of the past remind us of the trends of the Broadway that once was, what it turned to and where we are going. I believe that an entire college level class could be taught on Matt's material alone. As for discussing the current seasons, I feel like we're right there in the middle of all of it, thanks to him. Thank you, Matt. You have created great discussion of history for the little place we call Broadway. And that is from J. Pardon? Thank you very much, Jay. That was lovely. You guys are so good at these and I love reading them. I love sending them to my mom and, and actually, and my grandmother. Speaking of which, other update, we did see Stereophonic this Tuesday. And by we I mean myself because my grandmother, Sally Koplik, who is 100, came down with a cold a few days ago and she's a lot better now, thank you guys for asking. She had some wine today, so clearly she's doing okay. But she had a really bad cough for most of the past week and was, you know, while feeling better, just still kind of felt crummy and she didn't really want to go to the show for three hours and just be coughing the whole time and not feeling great. So I took my friend Sarah and we had a lovely time and hopefully she and I can still go and see the show maybe in September when prices will probably lower a bit. And yeah, there was talk about maybe doing a bonus episode with her, talking about Stereophonic and some of the shows she has seen over her hundred years of living. And I will investigate about that, see if I can get her to warm up to that. I think it would have been easier to get the ball rolling while talking about Stereophonic. It's a little difficult to just like flat out interview her. Same thing with my other grandmother with Nanny. She's happy to talk, just not on mic. So we'll see what happens, but I'll keep you guys posted. And that's it for now. So enjoy this episode with Ben West. Give my regards to Broadway Remember me to Herald Square Tell all the gang.

[Ben West]

At 42nd street that I will soon.

[Matt Koplik]

Be there Whisper of how I'm yearning.

[Ben West]

To mingle with that old time throng.

[Matt Koplik]

Give my regards to old Broadway and.

[Ben West]

Say that I'll be there ere long.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And we have a special treat today because we are talking usually about Broadway and the history and legacy of it all. We have a book that has come out written by a renowned theater historian. The book is called the American Musical Evolution, Evolution of an Art Form. Please welcome its author, Mr. Ben West. Hello, Ben.

[Ben West]

Hello. Thank you for having me.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you for coming on. So you might hold the distinction of being the only guest to come on this podcast who absolutely knows more about musical theater than I do. Just, just saying I don't know.

[Ben West]

Of.

[Matt Koplik]

The things that matter. I should say you have, you have a very wide depth knowledge of musical theater, of Broadway in general, of the history of it all. Obviously because you wrote this 400 plus page book about it that has taken you quite a long time. So how did theater enter your life? How did it enter your chat? And then we'll lead up to the book.

[Ben West]

Oh, interesting. Interesting. I don't know the initial origins, but the, but it came about very, when I was very young, I was putting on, I don't even remember this. So this is what I'm told via my mother. I was putting on puppet shows and singing and dancing in the house. And at that point, we lived outside Chicago. So very, very young. Must have been four or five. And by the time we moved to Miami, which is basically where I grew up, they enrolled me in a summer program. They saw that I had some sort of affinity for performance, and so they enrolled me in a summer drama camp as. As parents do. And. And for which obviously I'm grateful that they saw something and. And had the presence of mind and the. The warmth to. To nurture that. So. Yeah, so I. Summer camp. Summer drama camp in Florida. And then I started doing of shows in. In school. And there were a couple shows I did locally in South Florida. And that. That was the beginning, I guess. The genesis. Yeah. So puppet shows and singing the Judds in Evanston, Illinois.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you remember the first Broadway show you ever saw?

[Ben West]

Absolutely. Sunset Boulevard. And it was by accident, but with Glenn. Let's just be clear with the original Sunset Boulevard with.

[Matt Koplik]

I was gonna say, you have to make sure the listeners know which Norma it was.

[Ben West]

Yes, yes. It was the original run of Sunset Boulevard with all the original cast. My mom fell in love with Alice Ripley. And I get it.

[Matt Koplik]

Especially 90s Alice Ripley is prime. Alice Ripley. Sunset Boulevard to Sideshow. Slash. Jane voice is the Dead.

[Ben West]

Slash.

[Matt Koplik]

Rocky Horror Picture Show.

[Ben West]

That is a crime. You gave her three years.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I tacked on an extra three years because I was gonna just like, end it with Sideshow. And I was like. But no, there's also the Dead. It was like the Dead.

[Ben West]

Yeah, we saw the Dead. Y. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was like you. But you also can't ignore Rocky Horror show because that revival cast recording is so.

[Ben West]

Oh, I forgot she was in that. Yeah, that.

[Matt Koplik]

That recording. That cast is stacked because you have her. You got Jared Emick. Emick. How do you say his last name?

[Ben West]

That's. I think that's right. I think was Raul Esparza in that.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that was Broadway debut. Daphne. Ruben Vega, Tom Hewitt. Dick Cavett was the original narrator. Larry DeLaria. It's. I mean, it's just.

[Ben West]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's just good people.

[Ben West]

And Jerry Mitchell.

[Matt Koplik]

I think Jerry Mitchell was the choreographer.

[Ben West]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Christopher Ashley was the director. And yeah, it was. This is a good cast all around. But. So you were saying Sunset Boulevard, Alice Ripley, Glenn Close.

[Ben West]

Yes, and it was an accident, actually. That was my first trip to New York. My mother came up on business, so she would bring me. The first couple years, it was my Christmas present. But then it became a two, maybe was three times a year thing. And the First. So the first time was. I didn't know about it until I was. I got the present. And we went up in January. This would be January of 95. And yeah. Yes. We were singing Les Miserables Saturday night and then Greece Sunday afternoon. And we arrived early Saturday, and we didn't have any Saturday, the matinee. And we were staying at the Marriott Marquis. And as you know, Sunset Boulevard was at the Minskoff, which is across the street. And I had bought when I was visiting my aunt the year before, year and a half before, in Minnesota, the London recording of sunset with Patti LuPone. And so I knew the show and I saw that it was playing across the street and I was very interested. Interested to see it. So we. So I said, oh, let's go see Sunset Boulevard, the matinee. And this is. I said, 95. So this is when Times Square is starting to clean up its act. It's not completely disneyfied yet. So we went to the Minskof and there was some scalper or con man under the marquee selling tickets. My mother might get embarrassed by this story if she listens to this, but. And she should know better. P.S. because she had been coming to New York for business all throughout the 80s. So we go up to this guy, oh, I'll sell your ticket. And so we paid him cash for this ticket to Sunset Boulevard. And then he goes, he goes, okay, I'll be right back. And let me go get the ticket. And he went down the street into a diner on Ninth Avenue and never returned. But we went to the box office and ended up getting house seats. So it's a happy ending.

[Matt Koplik]

Happy ending. But. Oh, yeah, no, you don't. I hope that man choked on his sandwich later, because that is. That is both classic and awful. And also, like, of all the shows to just make your money off of Sunset Boulevard, man, that's the legacy that he chose.

[Ben West]

Or possibly, who knows? Who knows? Who knows? Anyway, that was. It was a, you know, it was a welcome to New York story. I was here for what, 10 minutes.

[Matt Koplik]

You got the whole. You got the whole situation in 10 minutes. It's the beginning of Thoroughly Modern Millie. You know, she gets a makeover and all in five minutes. I'm like, welcome to New York. It's been waiting for you.

[Ben West]

It's like high speed exposition. There's my. That's my.

[Matt Koplik]

It would make a good musical. So it's a very good first 10 minutes. You get a lot of the necessary information right off the bat.

[Ben West]

Yes, yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so that was so that was your first. And then what was probably after that, a musical that really impacted you and, like, course corrected your journey with musical theater. Like, what was something that was really pivotal for you?

[Ben West]

I don't know. I don't know if I would go as far as course corrected, but a. An early musical that, with which I was extremely taken, was not actually in New York, it was in London. I had the good fortune to go to London with my grandmother in 1997, and she. We went to see a number of things. The Goodbye Girl, the revised version with the Don Black partial lyrics, Blood Brothers, Starlight Express and Inspector Calls, which was marvelous. But the show that I want to mention is the Fix, which is the Dana Pirro, John Dempsey musical starring John Barrowman. Correct? Yeah. This is the original run with, I want to say, Catherine Evans and other Philip Quasst. Other people. I'm forgetting. Sam Mendes directed this.

[Matt Koplik]

Don Mar. Right, yeah, exactly.

[Ben West]

Yeah. And I don't. I just found it incredibly striking. And I really remember that show. And that was 1997. I would have been 14. So. Yeah, that was certainly one of the, One of the shows I really remember. I'm trying to think. Great question. I just wrote an email about this this morning to James Regruder. I think I'm pronouncing that his last name correctly. Triumph of Love was. I think that was the same year. No, because it was January. It was January 98, the closing weekend of Triumph of Love. I went to see Triumph of Love and, And I, I, I was taken with that show as well. And the gold. I don't know if you saw it, but the gold. They had a gold show curtain which went, which was fabulous. That went up at the top of the show. And I just, I don't know, I just, I remember that, that show quite well. And also, I think, if I remember correctly, again, it was closing weekend and Betty Buckley did her act one, Serenity. That was the big. Her big number, I should say her big number. That was one of the big numbers in the show. And I think she got it. If I remember correctly, she got a standing ovation. That just went on and on and on and on. So those are two, I guess, early ones that stuck with me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I mean, that's a very special experience to see that show closing weekend because, like, Triumph of Love is not really a super fondly remembered musical. It's one that, that has, like, its core fans, but it's not like, it's not bad enough to be this, like, notorious flop, but it's not a bad show.

[Ben West]

No, no, no.

[Matt Koplik]

And it did have it.

[Ben West]

It's not a uniformly excellent work, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

But it had its fans. So to see it in closing weekend when, you know, I'm sure they all were coming out in droves to see it one last time, and, like, it's. It's good enough that it's still a worthwhile experience. And the show also has kind of, like, fallen through. Through the cracks of musical theater history. So that's one. If, like, if you didn't see it, then your chances of seeing it again are. Or slim. So that's a very. Yeah, that's a very fortunate one to see, I think.

[Ben West]

Yeah. Yeah. I felt I was very, very lucky. There are a couple. There are a couple instances where that happened. It was a. I mean, this is what I'm about to say is a show that is probably done, or I should say is done regularly on all different levels. But the production on Broadway lasted a very short time, which was Charlie Brown in 99, which I had the good fortune to see as well, which was an early Michael Mayer. Oh, speaking of Triumph of Love, that's coincidentally another mayor. But anyway, yeah, I was. I was extremely lucky. I was very fortunate, and I thank my parents for that.

[Matt Koplik]

How did you get interested in the historical elements of musical theater? Because for me, it was. My mom got me a book by Stephen Susskind. It was called Opening Nights on Broadway. And it would. Yep, yep. Very thick book. As big as a dictionary. There's two of them as well.

[Ben West]

Two of them, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because she eventually got me more Opening Nights. And this was right after my. So my great grandfather either had passed or was about to pass, and he left me his, like, a theater history book. And it's like a pamphlet compared to the books I have now. It's 150 pages covering certain shows from, like, 1890 to 1964. Not even. No, all of them. Like, one a year. And that was my first theater history book. And then my mom got me Opening Nights on Broadway, which really kind of cracked the door wide open. And then there was no going back. So for you, like, was there a book, Was it a show? Like, what got you into the history?

[Ben West]

The. Definitely the Siskin books I have and were had early on, as did you. So those were definitely a tool. The thing that I typically would point to and that I remember most specifically. And I don't know if this is the right. Like the. I don't know if this is the. The only answer to the question, but what is Most tangible for me is Cy Coleman, because I ended up falling in love with Cy Coleman. This is around. This took. This is also in the 90s. So this is the period of the life. And then I don't know if you have the. You probably do the Souvenir program for the Life, and I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

But I know what you're talking about.

[Ben West]

We're going to get you one. So it has in the Souvenir program for the Light, which has all of its problems.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a fascinating musical for sure, and.

[Ben West]

There'S some wonderful stuff in the score, let's be clear. But I digress. The Souvenir program has a full page about Psy, and it had the CDs to the cast recordings of all of his past shows. Well, I should say the ones that are recorded. Home Again is obviously not there, but, you know, little nugget, a little. Or a little clarify asterisk. So it's. So I started going through the list and I was buying those recordings, and so that was sort of my gateway to the past, as it were. And also my gateway to Carolyn Lee, by the way, because through that I discovered her and she became my favorite lyricist. But anyway, so that. That is probably the most tangible thing. I was also buying scripts and as you were the Suskin books and other books that I can't remember. The Showboat show by show. Like when you're in high school and you do musical theater, you get the. They assign you the. I don't know if it's Stanley Green or somebody has the show by show thing, which is as you. As you were describing with the book that you were given from your grandfather. So completely selective, just like highly selective shows. Nowhere near complete. It doesn't. Ain't. Doesn't. Doesn't pretend to be complete. But just to be clear. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When you see how thin it is, you're like, oh, they're making no illusions that this is a complete.

[Ben West]

You know, it's like. It's just like a. Some key shows which.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's like.

[Ben West]

It like, tends to be sort of how history has been processed for the last several decades. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, to them, the deep cut is Do Re Mi. In this book that my great grandfather left me. They were like, okay, here's. Here's a. Here's a slight one. Do Re Me just so happens to have one of the most famous songs to cross over from musical theater to pop. But, like, other than that, no one knows it.

[Ben West]

No, no. And it was also a hit, if I recall.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It was like a soft hit. It was a, it was a hit because of Phil Silvers and because they were like, hey, here is a very modern concept.

[Ben West]

Jukebox.

[Matt Koplik]

Jukebox.

[Ben West]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And we as Broadway went, okay, I like the word jukebox. I'm going to attach that to musical and I'm not going to do anything you did. But I like the term jukebox musical.

[Ben West]

Yes, yes, that's exactly what happened. Somebody late 90s was like do Right Me inspired this new acronym that we will now use everywhere.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. That song, what's New at the Zoo, Cut it, Garbage, flop, trash. But let's take the concept of a jukebox and apply that thematically to our musicals. Now here we go. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. That's what, that's what happened in the room. And anyone who tries to tell us that it was different is wrong. Is absolutely.

[Ben West]

Exactly one plug though, since we're talking about Delray me is Luther Henderson, who's excellent, by the way. We'll just say that.

[Matt Koplik]

Let the record show excellent.

[Ben West]

I just want to make sure that we get that in there.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Ben West]

So see ya. Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

So as a theater historian, because you have spent a lot of your career, you know, touting the history of Broadway and sort of discussing its. How it's morphed into the. How musical theater has morphed into what we know now. Right. At least in terms of my knowledge of you, I feel like that's something that you've been known for is like really sort of spreading the word of how, you know, Broadway musicals crawls to walking, to running. And with that, I'm sure you also, you get a lot of the same questions. And I wonder, you know, what would, what are some of the most common questions you get asked as a musical theater historian about musical theater?

[Ben West]

Oh, that's an interesting question. What are some of the most common questions?

[Matt Koplik]

It is an interesting question because I do do this for a living now, Ben. I ask the hard hitting questions that Barbara Walters could never.

[Ben West]

And people can't see. But I'm crying too. So two in one.

[Matt Koplik]

But if I were Barbara Walters, I'd be like, so Doremi is a musical. Let's talk about how your family member died of cancer and how you hate women like this. That's how Barbara Walters does interviews. But luckily for you, I'm only seven.

[Ben West]

And all of those themes are to be found in Doremy.

[Matt Koplik]

Cancer and hating women are all. Are both enduring.

[Ben West]

It's right there. It's right there in the jukebox in the Joe Milzine. Was it Joe Musine? I don't remember who.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it was Boris Aronson, actually. Isn't that crazy? Why do I know that, Ben? Why do I know that?

[Ben West]

Because you should. I think you should.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I need to know more things about, like, my taxes and stuff. I shouldn't know who did the set design for to me in 1960.

[Ben West]

But it's a bonus.

[Matt Koplik]

It is a bonus.

[Ben West]

One day. What are some of the. I don't. I don't. I. I guess I don't. I'm gonna. Can I. I'm gonna adjust it slightly and say some of the most common topics that I. I'm addressing, which aren't necessarily from questions, but it's from things that people say to me. So one of those is the big one about Oklahoma Begins everything, or Oklahoma is the first integrated book musical, which just is not. People can debate about how complete it is or how seamless or all of that, how fully integrated. I'm not touching that. But just to simply flat out say, Oklahoma is the beginning of everything. This is the first integrated book musical. This is just not true. And then there's documented evidence of shows prior to that which are aiming to integrate these elements of comedy, of dialogue, song, dance, into a specific story that has been written for the theatrical stage. Review. Review is something I commonly address because people don't. Generally speaking, there's a misunderstanding of what review is, because what folks think now of as review is eight misbehaving Fosse dancing shows of this nature, which are not historically what review is. Those are not. If we're looking at what review is, review as a form that matured on the stage, that's not really review we're talking. I mean, I. You already know this. But anyway, to finish out the thought, review. For anyone who doesn't know, review is a form that is. It's a scripted musical show. So it is a scripted, legitimate musical show that does not have a story, it doesn't have a plot, and it is composed of independent comedy sketches, songs, dances that are structured in a very specific routine. So it's the same show every night, essentially. And. And it is. This is review. And it was hugely influential in shaping the book musical or the story musical. So that's something that. That is often. That I often address. Burlesque. People don't. There's a misperception about burlesque because of all the sort of ways that it morphs since its appearance in the 1800 here in America in the 1800s. And so when I'm talking burlesque, typically, or I should say when I'm talking burlesque, it's generally the. The first three decades of the 20th century and the 1800s to an extent. But first three decades, when it is not striptease, it is. It is primarily about comedy, knockabout, comedy, slapstick, travesty. This is the primary nature of burlesque during this period. And then it becomes associated with striptease when we get into the 30s and thereafter. And then I think the. The. The big one is. Which I try to dispel at every turn, is that. And these are. These are. This is. Is literally what. What has been said to me. And to an extent, understandably, because this is what. This is what is discussed to an extent or how the period is perceived. So if we're talking pre1970s, often I'm told that musical theater before the 70s, so whatever one wants to call that period, I just call it mid century for just called that. But mid century is one story, one sound, one set of characters, weak women, female sopranos, and nothing to do with society, politics, culture, which is completely false on its face. There are shows that absolutely fit into one or more of those categories. Absolutely. But to make a blanket statement about that period is just completely, completely false.

[Matt Koplik]

That is something that Liere Debessinet has been saying as the artistic director of Encores, and it makes me want to remove the title from her, because I was like, girl, if you think that every show pre1970, was that, like, why are you in theater? But you didn't mention Lear. But I'm. I'm. I want to say it because she's. She's been very public about it, and I'm like, you don't get to be the artistic director of Encores and say that every musical pre 1970, like, for every bloomer girl, there is a musical where there's, like, actually a great female character. Like, calm down.

[Ben West]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And in fact, what's the. What was. That's the. I mean, the. There are, I think, several misperceptions to address and several misunderstandings that have just snowballed over the last several decades. And that people will say, so, yes, we need to address those. I think also part of the way in which I attempt to address those is to provide examples of documented evidence or documented shows that that counter that narrative and presented accurate history. And in so doing, it actually has excited a lot of people. For example, some. One of the shows that I brought to some young folks attention is lady in the Dark, which is first of all a great show. This is a great show, 1941, and it is. It has a strong female character, a non traditional romantic entanglement inside of it. It deals with psychology. It is, you know, again, it's 1941, so it's not going to address psychology or the inner workings of the mind in the way that perhaps something today may address the inner workings of someone's mind. Nonetheless, these subjects, the themes, the characters of this particular show are not what these individuals expected. It's not what they think. You know, they're thinking of Music man or they're thinking of. And that's not to put down Music man, which is a wonderfully well built show. But, you know, it's. It's not. This period is not just Hammerstein, Rodgers, Music Man. It is Harold Arlen, Carolyn Lee, Cy Coleman, Compton Green, Mark Blitzstein, Kurt Weill, et cetera, et cetera, who are not. Do not have the same sound, let's be clear. And the other thing, let's just say, since we're here and we're talking about sound and this period is not, contrary to Mr. Stephen Sondheim's perception entirely AABA. So there is a perception perpetuated by many people, not just the reference that Sondheim makes, that this period is aaba. This is the form, this is the structure of the song in this period, the pop song, the production song. That's not, first of all, it's not accurate. It's very popular. It's popular structure, but it's not. This is not the only structure that exists in this period. And it's not the structure, the capital D structure of Tin Pan Alley proper, particularly if you're going back into the teens and twenties, where there is a great deal of theatrical songwriting in Tin Pan Alley, because at that time it directly or almost directly overlaps with the theatrical stage. AABA is not a predominant structure during that period. Anyway. Sorry, I just.

[Matt Koplik]

No, but I. I think that's. It's interesting you say that, because I think that's something that we just have all the time, just in our. In our culture of. It's what it's like the Mandela effect of. Of like the kernel of truth exists and then everyone's response to that becomes the truth, like over the years, until like you look back and you go, oh, that actually never. What everyone's saying was the case actually isn't the case at all. It's like over the years it has just grown and grown and grown. But. And we see it with. With shows as well. I liked that in your. In your book, you do have specific text examples from shows to be like, here is something that you should see, like in context with how the show is working.

[Ben West]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So many shows get miscategorized or misrepresented over the years because people just misremember them and. And start conflating them to things that they never actually were. So even things like Rogers and Hammerstein. And I know that I always come to their defense because they always get a bad rep, but not always like, they.

[Ben West]

They get a. They get. I don't think they are.

[Matt Koplik]

What I mean is like, their reputation for a while was, I think, unfair to them of, you know, oh, they're very wholesome, they're very family friendly. And what that really is is that it's people thinking of Sound of Music and thinking of the movie versions of their shows because the movie versions came out towards the end of the Hays Code. So there was a lot of censorship going on in their movie versions. And also a lot of bad 1950s movie acting going on in their movie versions. They were very insistent on. And you talk about this with Oklahoma. As well as with how While Oklahoma was 100% not the first integrated musical, nor was it, you know, the first musical is used a dream ballet. It wasn't the first musical to be about something other than show business. It wasn't even really the first blockbuster. People like to say, oh, that was the first blockbusters. Like, no, there were musicals that really took the country by storm before Oklahoma. Oklahoma was sort of a perfect storm of all of those things and coming in that one moment. But what Oklahoma did do, and you talk about this in the book, is like Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote it with the mentality of nothing superfluous is allowed in. It has to all be character based. It has to help the story in some way. So no dance breaks if it doesn't help the story. No songs for a character just because, oh, we want to give our leading lady another number. Like, it has to be benefit the story. And because of that, those shows have lived on in a lot of ways. And they also kept pushing what you could do with musicals. And whether it was subject matter or just the presentation of it, you know, obviously the bench scene in Carousel was like a watershed moment in musical theater writing. And the subject matter of South Pacific was a major moment in having. You've got to be carefully taught. And it wasn't until the 90s and early 2000s, when we had revivals that were like, hey, let's like, actually treat these like they're real shows and get people who can act as well as sing and not just treat these like nostalgia people pieces. Everyone went, oh, like, these shows were very. Not controversial, but, like, they were very. Yeah, very of the moment and. And. And a lot deeper than we ever gave them credit for. So I always get annoyed when people look at golden age musicals and go, oh, those nostalgia factors. I'm like, west side Story was shocking and like Music man, yes, it was like whipped cream and apple pie, but it's perfectly written and, like, has talk about a strong woman. Marrying the librarian is a. Is a baller female character in a time who, like. Who speaks her mind and isn't playing demure in any way. And yes, like, gets a romantic ending but on her terms, doesn't ever sacrifice self. And that's something that we're still kind of struggling with with a lot of female characters in musical theater. So to have that in 1955, I think is incredible. So I, like. I do like that you make a mo. An opportunity to acknowledge that in. In your book and us talking about it now. So, you know.

[Ben West]

Yeah, yeah. But I. I think, well, this can. If I can. If I can piggyback on something that you were saying. For me, that is the. What is so crucially missing as a general statement today. So this is. It's not missing with everyone, or it's not missing in every instance, but a. A what is largely missing. Maybe that's a better way to say. It is an understanding of how this art form actually matured and how this art form actually developed and fact that. And it is a fact that up to and including the 1960s, there was a concerted effort to. By the. By a large swath of the people working, not necessarily everybody, to better musical storytelling and to better and to mature to advance this particular art form. That's not me supposing that or putting that on someone. That is literally the words. Maybe synonyms, but literally the words that are being used by artists working in this time going back to the teens. And so what's missing today is. Is this under the understanding of that. The understanding of what is possible in that for us today in terms of excellence and professionalism in storytelling. And then also this writing off, as you were just suggesting, not. You were not writing off, but suggesting that people do. Yeah. Of nostalgia or Americana or this sort of the. The escapist idea of the mid 20th century, whatever. One, especially if one is an artist making musicals today in future, it's not. This particular period is not. And. And even prior to that. But up to including the 60s, is not about, or should say the largest takeaway for a creator from a creative standpoint is not what is the story that's being told or the subject matter of the story necessarily, or the theme of the story. It is how, again, the takeaw from a creative standpoint is how are the stories being told, how are they being shaped and written and crafted for the theatrical stage? And there's a clear progression of moving toward this excellence, this refinement and maturity in house shows are composed, meaning put together, arranged, structured, written, the writing craft, the stage craft of these particular shows. This is the huge takeaway again, from a creative standpoint of the middle of the 20th century. And I. I think, unfortunately, that is getting lost in people dismissing what they think is escapism and nostalgia.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, I. I think also, and this is. I don't mean to be like, kids, get off my lawn, old man yells at cloud here, but something that I wish more young writers and directors and whatnot would take into account today when looking back on the golden age. And then what would we call, like, the late 60s to, like,'70s era of theater? Like, what is there a name for that era of that age?

[Ben West]

I mean, I call the seventies diminution. Sure. I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

But like. But so people like Oscar Hammerstein, people like a. Burroughs or Michael Bennett Sondheim, people who were so in tune with what musicals did. Well, what. What you could do with musical, and. And wanting to push it even further while also acknowledging that there were people out there in the dark giving you their time and their money. So trying to blend the two things of I want to push this forward, but I also want people to want to see it.

[Ben West]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And combining art and commerce in a way that Broadway sort of hasn't been in a long time, in my opinion. And I feel like that needs to be remembered because the artists who I like the most working in musical theater today, I feel like kind of sometimes forget that you have to also write for an audience. And then the people who are writing for the audience don't necessarily desire to push the formula or the format any further. They're like, this is what works. Let's just give them what they want. And then the people are like, no, I want to try new things. They're like, but also, I don't care if anybody sees it. I'm like, no, you should you should care. You should care that people want to see it, but you also don't want to have them rest on their lore. If we're evolving as a species, I think the medium of musical theater should evolve with it while also not holding them at arm's length. Am I making any sense right now, Ben? I feel like I'm talking in circles.

[Ben West]

I hear. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I don't know that I'm completely on board with that train.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't have to.

[Ben West]

Yeah, no, no, but I do. I. I don't. I guess for me, the, The. Or should I say I don't. I would not necessarily on board with that train. I don't know that I see it that way. I think that's what you're saying is totally valid, but I guess I'm the people who. This is a general statement. So we're not talking about anyone specific. But I wonder. So that's a better way to say it, since we're not talking about people specific. I wonder if the people who say they want to do something different or quote, unquote, new actually know what came before them and what is different and new and have the tools to make conscious decisions, to build upon what was before them in order to be different or quote, unquote, new.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that is also very much a part of it is. There's a. And again, I'm trying not to generalize because as we were literally saying 20 minutes ago, you can't really generalize about any person or era because there's always an exception to everything that you're just flat out ignoring for the sake of a headline. And I'm not talking about all current musical theater writers of Broadway. I'm also talking about the young students and up and comers who are trying to get their foot in the door. Just complete disregard and lack of a desire to think about Rodgers and Hart, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Frank Lesser, Carolyn Lee, Dorothy Fields, like they want, basically, like musical theater started in 1985 for them.

[Ben West]

And I think that is the. That seems to be the mentality and that is. It's such a disservice to the work of these people who are working now, meaning established writers and also writers coming up who in large part are being taught or mentored by the established folk. And so, and I don't mean this to be dismissive of any individual. I simply mean to say this is not a new form. So musical theater is not something that you are creating now from scratch. I'm sorry it has existed for decades, and it matured in the middle of the 20th century. If you want to call it a golden age, if you want to call it. I call it convention or maturity, whatever one wants to call it. The middle of the 20th century is a period of artistic maturity when we realize at that time what this art form is, this thing we call the American musical today was realized then. So if you are just looking at it from the works of the 80s and 90s, when there. There is a. A general disarray and a sort of a. A grappling with how are we going to move forward in that particular period, 80s and 90s, your. Your. Your work is missing. There is. There are possibilities of excellence, professionalism, craft, structure, construction, storytelling, that you are missing in dismissing the works prior to that 1,000%.

[Matt Koplik]

That is a train I can board. I also just feel like, you know, you cannot even attempt to reinvent the wheel if you have no idea where that wheel came from. It's.

[Ben West]

But that's what. That's the thing. That's the. That's.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the way I'm saying exactly what you're saying. Yeah. That was. That was me signing my ticket for your train, Ben.

[Ben West]

Oh, sorry. And now you need to play. What's the Train song? Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry. I missed my cue on that one.

[Matt Koplik]

There are a million train songs.

[Ben West]

Yeah. But there's a really great. There's a great Irving Berlin train song that's not written for this, for the stage. And it's a. It's. It's Benny Goodman, Rosemary Clooney, I think Peggy Lee. No, no, not Rosemary Clooney. Benny Goodman, Peggy Lee. Somebody else. It's all. It's like a quartet of people. And they wrote it for. For. I think it was some government fundraiser, train across the country thing. Oh, my gosh. I can't think of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Is it the Freedom Train?

[Ben West]

Yeah, it's the Freedom Train. I literally.

[Matt Koplik]

I looked up Irving Berlin Train, and. And that was the first thing that popped up I wanted to. Yeah. The Freedom Train.

[Ben West]

The Freedom Train. I love that song. Anyway, okay, sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

So we will get into, then, the origins of this thing we call the American musical. But before we do any of that, Mr. Ben west, we have to take a quick break.

[Ben West]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ben West]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back. All right. So bien. If one were to Go back to look for the beans that. That sprouted the beanstalk that is the American musical. How far back would one have to go using your book as a guide?

[Ben West]

I mean, if you want to go back, back, back, one would have to go to the. The creation of Earth, I suppose. But in terms of the. Where I begin, and I'm talking about the musical stage in America and the American musical, which we should just add because this is a question another. To back up to another question that you meant you had asked me, I'm asked sometimes about the American musical. Is this exclusively American or is it. What are the borders of the. And I will say this is the reason that we call it, or I call it the American musical is that it is an art form that matures on American shores. It's not exclusive to America. I also call it in the book a melting pot of multiple mediums. So just to be clear on that. So in terms of looking at this trajectory on American shores, I begin with minstrelsy. There are, and you can find it, I'm sure, some shows that were written musical esque or musical ish. Shows that were written in America in the 1700s, which I allude to in the book. I don't delve into them, but so that existed. I don't mean to suggest nothing happened before minstrelsy, but if we're talking about the development of the American musical that matures mid 20th century, we're ultimately going back to minstrelsy and this, this original American form being minstrelsy.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. And so, so we start with minstrelsy. Where do we progress to from there?

[Ben West]

Well, I would say it's not exactly a straight line. So you have a. We have a number of things happening at the same time. So it's not so much that we have minstrelsy, then variety, for example, and then less because it's, it's. It doesn't, it doesn't travel in that very concise linear destination. It's more of a complicated scenescape of. Of different styles and forms. So minstrelsy, we have start to take shape in terms of the show in 1843. Separately, we have the variety show really start to take shape as we understand it post civil War with folks like Tony Pastor and others. Burlesque is also a post civil war separate from the variety show. So this is what I mean. It's not really a linear thing. We have multiple. These multiple things bubbling at the same time. Shortly after that, Gilbert and Sullivan are coming out over in Europe. And then in the States, we Have Harry B. Smith and Reginald de Koven and John Philip Sousa writes American comic opera. We have farce comedy. As we push toward the end of the century, ragtime will come around in the 18. Or officially come around as a designation in the 1890s. At the same time, we have a huge influx of black entertainment, black musical shows. Again, this is 1890s. So it's not. I just want to stress that it's not a linear progression so much as a confluence of events and forms that will progressively coalesce as we move further in time.

[Matt Koplik]

So, yeah, one format does not necessarily beget the next one so much as that pieces of each one eventually culminate into what we know. So then, okay, so we get into the 20th century. We're in the early 1900s. We've got vaudeville, we've got burlesque. Ragtime is raging at this point. And we're what, like 1910? Let's say something like that. And so remind me, Black Crook was end of the 1800s or beginning of the 1900s?

[Ben West]

End of 1800s. 1866.

[Matt Koplik]

1866. And the black Crook is usually the show. If you were to take a history of musical theater class like I had to, sophomore year of college, your teacher.

[Ben West]

Will tell you, people will tell you that this is the first American musical.

[Matt Koplik]

And they like to do it as a trick because they'll say, what was the first American, American musical? And there's always that kid in your class who says, oklahoma. Because everyone. There's always one person who says oklahoma. The one person likes to think they're smarter. And they go, no, no, no, no, Showboat. And then your teacher will say, it was actually a show called the Black Crook. Now, this is also not really accurate.

[Ben West]

That's not accurate. It's just that accurate.

[Matt Koplik]

But why? So to any of my. I call them my. I call them the uncultured. But my listeners who maybe don't know much about the Black Crook, could you set the scene of what it was and then why people sometimes think it is the first musical.

[Ben West]

It's a Faustian tale that was a play that intermingles a ballet troupe from Paris that was not supposed to be part of the play. The Parisian ballet troupe was supposed to perform at the Academy of Music, which then suffered a fire before they had started performing. So they ended up. The ballet troupe ended up being booked into this particular play or merged with this particular play. Thus, we have this. This accidental musical David Armstrong likes to call. And it was at Niblo's Garden. It was a Huge, huge, huge spectacle. And the second part of your question actually relates to something that you were saying about Oklahoma in terms of its momentousness and long run, sort of perceiving this being perceived as the first. And I think that's the same that translates to the Black Crook as well, because it runs roughly a year, might have even been a little longer than a year. And so it has this monstrous run. It's a huge spectacle. It tours, it comes back to New York many, many times. This is. We're still in the 1800s. And so it is perceived as this first American musical, which it is. It just is not. And I. And I offer examples, documented examples in the book that speak to the fact that it is not the first show in America. And I'll actually also relate back to the ide idea of, or should say the fact of minstrelsy providing this early foundation and one of those early shows being written by, or a couple of them being written by T.D. rice, who was also the creator of the character Jim Crow.

[Matt Koplik]

So we would then probably say people think of the Black Crook not just because of its hugeness. It is, you know, this momentous moment. So it's easy to come back to it. It's one of those, you know, flagship moments that people just. They can gravitate towards it, but because it does incorporate story with dance, it is.

[Ben West]

It's just.

[Matt Koplik]

It's an easy thing for people to think about. But as you were saying, there were examples of that before the Black Crook. Is it possible that it's not just the long run of the Black Crook, but is there like another element to that production that might give it that lore, or is it really just the fact that it is. It was so popular and remains a popular title since then. That is just easy to kind of point to it.

[Ben West]

I think that's a great question. I don't. I don't know. I mean, I suspect they're.

[Matt Koplik]

You call yourself a historian, Ben, and you can't tell me who their third replacement cast was of the Black Crook. I shame.

[Ben West]

I suspect the answer is yes, that there are more than one things that there's more than one thing that factors into it. Another thing I would. Would offer as a potential reason is in 1954 there was a musical, as you know, called the Girl in Pink Tights, which is a. A semi bio of the Black Crook. And in the program for the Girl In Pink Tights, 1954, it calls the Black Crook the first American musical comedy. Though it is possible that plugs like that or, or labels like that on more contemporary. Again, this is 54 is more contemporary than 1866. So that's what I mean. Comparatively more contemporary assertions which have the greater potential to stick as people start recording things. So that I would, I would point to that.

[Matt Koplik]

Were there, were there actual songs in blackrock or was it mostly just a spectac play with dances?

[Ben West]

No, there were songs in the Black Crook. I cannot remember the title of any of them off the top of my head right now, but there were songs. There were absolutely. Songs in the Black Crook.

[Matt Koplik]

And were they songs in the same way that, you know, like a princess musical has sort of, you know, scene scenes. Here's the scene, and then the song is just sort of kind of stops everything for a moment.

[Ben West]

I don't know that it's in this. Oh, well, yeah, that's interesting because.

[Matt Koplik]

So I sort of. For anyone who maybe forgot, I, I can't recall which episode it was that we talked about princess musicals because I had never heard of the princess musicals until I actually went to college. This is an example of where getting a BFA education actually can help you because that, the Princess Theater was, that's where like Jerome Kern kind of cut his teeth before going off and doing things like Showboat. Am I, am I mixing up history about that?

[Ben West]

No, no. I mean, he, he was doing interpolations and he was around before that, but that was the, that's the, his first major. Yeah. Undertaking, I think that's fair to say. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the Princess Theater was a, it.

[Ben West]

Was a small, intimate house.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's, it's, it was located next to where the Walter Kirk currently is, but I believe it's now an apartment complex that. But the thing about the Princess Theater, and again, wrongfully thought of as to be sort of a, an early example of musicals as we know them now. They were stories that had scenes and songs and dances. But the example I would say about like Princess Theater musicals would be, you know, the songs were more kind of pauses for the story than anything else. So you and I would be having a conversation about the plot of our musical then. And then at one point I go, you know, Ben, I forgot what day is it today? And then you would sing a three minute song about how it's Tuesday. And then we would get back to the plot. And that was like a typical princess musical. So I, I, There was that Back to the Black.

[Ben West]

To be fair to the. Well, I would say my, I'm gonna say no, because we have 50, 60 years that separate this in terms of artistic progression, but in fairness to the Princess musicals, which I are entirely ephemeral. So this is. They're not something that you're going to pick up. And this is not, as you say, it's not the musical that we understand today in terms of a dramaturgically sound complete piece. But there were instant. There were songs that were related to the action of the show or related to the circumstances of the show. And I think the, you know, the big thing about the Princess musicals was the nature of the character of the shows and the fact that they were intimate. There was a much more focus placed on the literary aspect, particularly the. The Woodhouse lyrics. There was a contemporary sensibility in terms of the. The book and the. The circumstances. And this is again putting it in context. Those were notably different than most of the forms and styles that were happening on stage in the 1910s. They weren't exclusive. For example, Victor Herbert did an intimate musical before the Princess musical. So also that, you know, again, they're not the first show that is intimate in nature or using a very small ensemble or using a. Or having a comparatively minimalist approach to scenery. The Only Girl has these things, which is 1914, but they were. The Princess musicals are what we take away and we're probably the most recognizable during that period. So I wouldn't equate them to. I wouldn't equate them to the Black Crook.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I'm not equating, but like, I was using it as a comparison point of.

[Ben West]

I mean, that's what I mean. I didn't mean to quit. That's the wrong word. But I. I would. I would put them in different camps.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure, sure. Many decades apart. But, you know, I feel like as each decade continues from Black Crook onwards, we get like incrementally closer to musicals where the songs are much more important to the plot into characters and.

[Ben West]

Or integrated. Integrated, one might say, as some people like to say.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I feel like songs in. In American musicals as. As it's progressing, I feel like the first thing that kind of happened were song integrated songs to express emotions or mental states of characters before songs that really kind of pushed plot forward. It was more about character development or character introspection than storytelling. And then as we go continue down the line of the 20th century, we get a lot more of those. But also, I wasn't fair.

[Ben West]

I will just. I will just say, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but I will just say in fairness, character introspection can be a form of progressing story as has been evidenced as we move into the.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, this isn't anything new. This is, that's literally what opera is. Opera is just non stop inner monologues being sung to us. This is, there's a famous, you know, monologue from Amadeus all about that, about the glory of opera and that you can't always get in a play despite however many soliloquies you write. But you know, it's, it's. I think there's an economy that comes from musical theater where it just, it gets sharper and more focused as we continue. Like you don't get.

[Ben West]

Oh, completely, yeah, yeah, completely, yeah, yeah. And part of that has to do with the, the influences of the form that we understand, especially vaudeville. Because in terms of. When you're talking about economy and, and this idea of punch and, and electricity, there's, I mean this is. One can't exclusively prescribe that as being the influence of vaudeville. Exclusive. I should say, one can't say that is the exclusive influence of vaudeville, but that is undoubtedly heavily influenced by, by vaudeville because you had a limited amount in vaudeville, which for anyone who doesn't know is when we're talking about vaudeville as we understand it, which is roughly first three decades of the 20th century, it's roughly 10 independent acts which are not exclusively juggling or tightrope walking as some people think. It was a comedy was a huge part of Vaught. Comedy and song were the backbone essentially of vaudeville. So you had major female singing comedians, Bell Baker, Sophie Tucker, etc, Blossom Sealy, male comedian, male comics were, these were dancers. These were huge parts of what vaudeville was anyway. So you had, you know, in some cases you have five minutes to put over. That's what put over your act. And, and if, and if you did not put over your act, you were not going to be booked. So it was this tremendous, tremendously high stakes and there was a need to get yourself over the footlights as soon as you reach the stage, grab the audience. And there was an intimacy that needed to be cultivated between you and the audience. And so this is, you know, this is part of what we feel in terms of how the music. How. Review how the scripted musical, the book musical operates in terms of this idea of efficiency and immediacy and electricity and dynamism.

[Matt Koplik]

What is something in your research that really surprised you as you put together this book of something that. Yeah, just something that surprised you in your, in your, in your research?

[Ben West]

Many, many, many things. Many things. If I had to then list 40.

[Matt Koplik]

Of them, Ben I want, I want as many as possible.

[Ben West]

No problem. Put a clock on me. The, the one that I usually go to because people find it particularly interesting and, and I, I mean I myself find it very interesting is the influence and the presence of nightclubs. That's a, was a big one for me because I didn't, I, as, I mean as we were, as we were talking earlier, I had always had an interest in the history of musical theater, but particularly early on, even when I started doing my own works. I went to college for performance and then I assisted for a couple years and then I started doing my own works primarily downtown, looking at lesser known shows and lesser known artists. And so my perception at that time was still vastly incomplete. And, and so the history that I knew or that I was looking at was basically mid century shows that, that were flopped. So that didn't work like, and then I'm like, oh, I know these shows. And so what I was just discovering for myself in doing that work in investigating the shows and pulling them apart and seeing what works and what doesn't work is actually understanding the form. And so that's when, and so 2014 is when I made the decision to basically stop what I was doing. And I just went full time diving into a dissection and a discovery of what this actual art form is that I thought I knew, but really didn't know. And, and so one of the things that I, I had heard of vaudeville, I knew vaudeville. I had the idea of what vaudeville was. I didn't really deeply know what it is, as I do now. Burlesque, I had heard of a little bit and more. I was thinking more striptease, as I think most people do. But nightclubs is really the one that was completely new to me. And I didn't really understand or didn't know that the extent to which these were a part of. First of all, Broadway at the time, the time being teens through roughly 40s and how theatrical they were. I mean there was such a, there was in, in many cases, I should say many, in some cases, particularly the Billy Rose shows, when we get to the 30s, there is a, a. There's not even a line that exists in terms of separating legitimate shows from nightclubs in terms of what's on stage. I mean. And so, and so it's just the, that was very exciting for me and very interesting to discover the heavy influence of nightclubs, particularly in terms of the sound of the American popular song and, and, and concurrently the musical stage. Black artists, particularly associated with nightclubs and A lot of the, A lot of the black shows on Broadway, certainly the most successful, I think it's fair to say, notwithstanding, Shuffle Along. But when we get into the 20s, are transplants from nightclubs. So it's just. That was a big. That was a big one for me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I didn't. I never really knew that nightclub acts just could be transplanted on Broadway. I knew that nightclubs were a breeding ground for talent that often flourished on Broadway. And it was sort of a way to invest in writers and dancers and choreographers and singers in those environments and get them to a place where once you brought them to Broadway and they could just sort of explode from there. But I didn't know that the actual acts themselves could move. So that is fascinating. It's.

[Ben West]

And it was. And I'll just add, because you're saying you had mentioned acts, and I just want to add that there in some instances, I mean, nightclubs operated very differently than. And cabaret very differently than they do now, like a studio, sorry, a 54 below or a Cafe Carlisle, when during this period they were theatrical in nature. So it wasn't in most cases, not all cases. For example, Sophie Tucker, I forget the name of the room, but Sophie Tucker sort of presided over a room in. She had a residency starting in. In 1918. And so in that instance, it is a solo performer doing her act or doing an act in this room. But in most of the cases, certainly the most prominent cases, it's not an individual act, it's actually a full show. So it's a full review. Most of them were reviews. It's a full review that is being packaged and presented written stage specifically for this show for, excuse me, for this nightclub, for example, Sammy Lee, who was a. A very well known and influential choreographer, he did show the original Showboat. Prior to it was. Was it the. It was two years prior to Showboat, he did a very elaborate floor show or review at a nightclub that was based on or inspired by George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, for example. Example. And so that was the full. It is a full review as opposed to individual acts in most cases. Not. It's not exclusive, but just in most cases until we start to, you know, until we get to the roughly the 50s, 60s when the nature of nightclubs, cabaret changes or so we've been sort.

[Matt Koplik]

Of tiptoeing around and we brought it up just now. I think we have to start getting to the occasions in American musicals that maybe the listeners would be a little more familiar with and sort of go down those Paths now maybe a little more linear now, now that we're in the 1920s and moving onwards. So we have shows like Shuffle along and Showboat that are absolutely major. Have major impacts on the legacy of American musicals. I am one of those people that did not know of Shuffle along until George C. Wolf decided to grace it with. With grace us with its presence. And I'm forever grateful that the George C. Wolfe to Shuffle along remains one of my favorite things I've ever seen. But it's so fascinating to learn about it now and sort of see the impact that it had that no one ever really realized. But I think that's sort of the fascinating and tragic thing of so many of these shows where, you know, they're not necessarily recorded for posterity and due to American history, can often get swept aside. And yet when you rediscovered, you notice its connections and its impact on so many other things. So for something like Shuffle along or Showboat, how. How would you go about telling someone who maybe isn't aware, how would you sort of get across to them? Exactly. Just how.

[Ben West]

How.

[Matt Koplik]

How major their. Their impacts were in the theater at the time and then sort of of, you know, moving on from there?

[Ben West]

How.

[Matt Koplik]

How Pretend I am an uncultured Ben. And I say these two shows, never heard of them. And you go, okay, you take a breath, you collect your thoughts, you go, let me set the scene. How. How do you do it?

[Ben West]

I would say I'll start with Shuffle along because they're very different shows, although somewhat related, in fact, and actually some direct connections, will Votary being one of them. But anyway, that. That's not where I'm going to start. So.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, that's not on the record. That's not on the record.

[Ben West]

That's two in the weeds already. I would say Shuffle along was a major black musical from 1921 that had a particularly strong influence on the extent of the Harlem Renaissance and black artists reemerging very prominently on Broadway in the 1920s. It was written by four gentlemen, two teams, actually. A blackface comedy team who had been performing for a number of years, actually a couple decades, and were. Had made a name for themselves. And the other team that the two songwriters, Noble, Sissel, UB Blake, came from, a lineage of James Reese Europe, had both worked with James Reese Europe, who was a major force in the refinement of ragtime and the emergence of black syncopated Orchestras in the 90s.

[Matt Koplik]

Did you see that thumbs down that Zoom gave us just now?

[Ben West]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know why that happened. You said refinement. And Zoom went, I don't like that word.

[Ben West]

Oh, that's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know what that happens sometimes. Anyway, sorry.

[Ben West]

I noticed the thumbs up, but I did. I was like, oh, that's weird. I don't. Maybe he's doing something. And I just didn't. I was like, oh, whatever. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

I've. I've. I've learned now from a few different Zoom interviews, both on my podcast and guesting on other people's podcasts. I always thought it was me or someone else doing it. No, Zoom just decides to have an opinion about our conversations. And so I was seeing those thumbs ups, and I was like, okay, Zoom is. Is totally down for what Ben and I are saying. And then you said, that is refinement, clearly. And Zoom just gave us a thumbs down.

[Ben West]

Zoom does not like the fact that Ragtime was refined.

[Matt Koplik]

Zoom is a messy. They like their ragtime messy.

[Ben West]

They like. It just gave us a thumbs up just now. That's so funny. Anyway, so. So I would say, yeah, so two different teams, a comedy team and a songwriting team. And I would say it was also instrumental in launching the careers of a number of very prominent black individuals. Florence Mills, Paul Robeson are two of those individuals. And I would then go on to say that that part of its huge impact or incredible impact is the representation or the encapsulation, its encapsulation of this particular moment in time. And I would add that it's not the first black musical. It's not the first time we hear jazz on Broadway. It's not the first black jazz band on Broadway. And I would probably mention some of the earlier folks, like Bob Cole, upon whose shoulders the Shuffle along folks are standing. I would mention Henry Creamer also, who is. Is largely cast aside in these early black conversations and especially in the 20s. But part of what I mean about Shuffle along being this encapsulation of a moment or a culmination of a moment is we had a great deal of activity on the black musical stage in the 1890s, especially first decade of the 20th century. Then three of the driving forces die between 1909, 1911. One of those is Bob Cole. And there is a misperception. Well, I should say a partial. A partial misperception that black musical theater disappears in the 1910s. And this is, in some ways, that's accurate. It is far less prominent than it has been. Absolutely. But it doesn't completely disappear. And there's actually a great deal of groundbreaking work and pioneering work being done by folks Like Alex Rogers, Henry Creamer, who I mentioned. James Reese Europe, who I mentioned, particularly with regard to James Reese Europe, in terms of black syncopated orchestras filling up New York nightclubs. So there is a great deal of interest among the white population in black syncopated orchestras. Vaudeville, which the two authors, two teams from Shuffle along participated in, is a major force during this particular period. During the first few decades, first couple decades of the 20th century, Harlem goes from a predominantly white center to a predominantly black cultural center. So there are a number of things that are happening theatrically, musically, socially that Shuffle along ultimately encapsulates in 1921. And so it's this electric moment with jazz, vaudeville, specialties, black focus dancing. So it's just absolutely an incontrovertible milestone that unfortunately gets over inflated by folks like George Seawolf. By the way, notwithstanding the phenomenal aspects.

[Matt Koplik]

Of his production, it's not entirely historically accurate. But it was a thrilling two and a half hours of theater. Yes, two hours and 45 minutes of theater.

[Ben West]

So that's what I would say about Shovel Along. And it was really a momentous work that did not exist in a vacuum. I suppose I would say Showboat is a similar. In a similar vein. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. One of the other things to go back to an earlier question is often I'm told, in fact, I had this conversation when I started working on the museum. I was told that Showboat is the first book musical. This is not accurate. So this is something that I'm often told. And so Showboat doesn't exist in a vacuum. And it. And part of the success of Showboat, in addition to the maturity with which it's written, to an extent, the excellence with which it's written, the potent subject matters, the. The gravity of the material and the three dimensionality of the characters is the. The subject matter one and one of those themes in terms of subject being race. So there's your. In addition to Will Votary, there's your connection to Shuffle along because especially as we move into the 20s, there is a heavy focus on race, a great deal of interest in black life in. In whatever form it takes. And actually, I should make a note about that in just a second. But for example, there are Eugene o' Neill plays that are happening at this time. There's an interracial romance in one of those. There is a musical called, Excuse me, a play called Harlem. There's a play called Black Boy Porgy. The play Porgy happens in the 1920s. So showboat is Part of this focus on black life, black individuals. And I just want to add the note that I'll say just this is outside of. It's outside of Showboat, but related to black performers. There's sometimes. There's the fact that many, not all, but many of the black performers or the black presence on stage, the musical stage in this period and. And a little bit after this period is primarily tap dancing and singing. That is often dismissed today or looked down on in terms of we can do more than that, which absolutely we can. That there is. There is. That is. That is not. We are not limited to. Or black and performers are not. I'm part black, thus I'm saying we. Just to be clear, I keep forgetting.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone that podcasts are not a visual medium. So Ben has to explain to you all. But yes.

[Ben West]

So the absolutely capable of more than tap dancing and singing. That having been said, I don't want to dismiss the impact that the performers who were performing, tap dancing, singing, dancing without taps in the 1920s, the impact that they had on the perception of black people throughout the country. And Florence Mills speaks about this. And this is another one of the elements of the fact that the musical stage is. Is interconnected or is a reflection of American consciousness throughout time and has a deep social impact. So the stage is what I would call high stakes. And there's such potential there. And so Florence Mills talks about this. In the 1920s, she was a major, major, major figure. She was equated to a black counterpart to Al Jolson, who was like the Taylor Swift of his day. So she speaks about the stage being the quickest way to.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, Al Jolson, the Taylor Swift of his day. That might. That might have to go on merch. That might have to go on a mug or something.

[Ben West]

Just like, I mean, he was a huge entertainer.

[Matt Koplik]

I know, I know, I know. But, like, it's. It's so funny how.

[Ben West]

I mean, people like us, people like.

[Matt Koplik]

You and me, giant nerds who, like, we say Al Jolson, we absolutely know what we're talking about. But to have to tell people, like, how do I explain this? He was like the Taylor Swift of his day. And then like 300 people at Broadway Con go, oh, yeah, yeah. Get it. Yeah, totally.

[Ben West]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, the man could sell out the Palace. The man could do 10 shows a day at the palace for 10 years and sell out every show. Like, he was that kind of huge.

[Ben West]

He was a huge, huge, huge, huge. Excuse me, entertainer. And, and actually, I'm. You've just got me off topic, but I'll just say there's a chapter in the book about the Winter Garden Theater and there's a. There was a series of extravaganzas that were uniquely crafted around him and that operated in a specific way that I find particularly fascinating. But anyway, I've lost what I was saying.

[Matt Koplik]

And speaking of the Winter Garden, it is my favorite of all the Broadway theaters. And one of my favorite things about it is that its origins as a building, which I'm sure you know how the Winter Garden, it was like a.

[Ben West]

Horse stable, wasn't it?

[Matt Koplik]

It was the New York Horse Exchange. Yeah. Which is why that theater, first of all, it's so wide and kind of flat. But also, if you sit in the Winter Garden Theater, you can't really define it, but part of you is like this feels kind of circular and I don't know how to. I don't know why, but like I, I get the idea of a circle. It's like. Yeah, because they had to show the horses off. Like they had to trot them around in the circle. It was the New York Horse Exchange. And then they made. They made it a theater. It's one of the few Broadway theaters that's origins were not either built exclusively to be a theater or like, started off as a movie palace or a vaudeville house and became I Broadway theater like it was. It did a total 180. Anyway, that's my little tangent. So Ben Jolson. Jolson, Showboat shuffled along the likes. Because you say Florence Mills, who, Who was the counter. Who's the counterpoint to who worked in.

[Ben West]

The Winter Garden, by the way, in the nightclub spaces in the Winter Garden building. But anyway, she was saying that the stage is the quickest way to the people. And, and when she reaches the audience and they faith, they appreciate her, it makes them think better of other black individuals in the country. So I don't remember how I got onto that, but just the idea that.

[Matt Koplik]

Black artistry and, and the progression of what they could do in theater, but then connecting that also to Showboat.

[Ben West]

Yes. So Showboat is as I, as I already alluded to the. The one of the themes be coming out of this focus on black. Black culture and black life in the 1920s and being. And I, I mentioned this as well, but I'll just say it again. The, the maturity with which it is written and again the idea that it doesn't come out of a. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. For example, Oscar Hammerstein is not all of a sudden trying to Integrate these elements of dialogue, song and dance into a specific story with Showboat. And this is something that he was doing with his mentor prior to this, Otto Harbach. And so I'll just mentor mention Otto Harbach because he often gets lost in the conversation as well. So he is very much about creating this soundly constructed show. No, no. Nanette is an Otto Harbach musical comedy which exists today as, as refined or filtered through mid century maturity as I would describe it by Bert Shevlon Love. Nonetheless, it had the bones, it had the framework to be able to do that because of Otto Harbach and his focus or his perception on how a show should be coherently constructed and built. And the revival was 1971. For anyone who didn't doesn't know. And the original is 25. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So actually fun fact about no no no when no no Nanette had its revival in 1971, it was such a huge hit, it was such a sensation. And there was talk they the Tony Awards didn't know what to do with it. They were like, I guess we, because like Bert like sort of tweaked the book a bit and like we haven't seen it so long. Like I guess we could possibly consider this a new musical. And Hal Prince wrote to the Tony committee this long letter about like don't you dare that he goes, this is, that would be an affront to the artistry of Broadway and you know, like, this is not a new musical, blah blah. And like, yes, he's partially right, but he didn't write that because of artistic integrity. He wrote it because he knew if they were nominated for best musical then Company would not win because no, no, no, that was a bigger hit than Company. And he was like, if they get nominated, they will win. And so it's, it's, it's. I find that very funny and. But it's no, no, that revival of no no Nanette is what eventually created the revival category at the Tonys. Because right after Non Na Na I think they got like a special Tony for the production in addition to winning like actress, supporting actress and choreography. A year or two after that was when they started the like special event Tony's that I think started with the Candide revival and then went on to Dracula and then it became recreation reproduction of a show and then that became revival and then became revival playing musical. Anyway, you just mentioned. No, no, that put me on a whole tangent. But it's one of my favorite facts about, about no Internet is how they were gonna Put it in the best musical of the Tonys. And Al Prince was like, don't you dare listen.

[Ben West]

I have nothing on that. There's nothing.

[Matt Koplik]

There's nothing to say.

[Ben West]

It's just like, I have nothing on that. I'm not a fan of the Tony Awards. So I, I think they're a. I.

[Matt Koplik]

Think they're a fun way to discuss art and then build on from there. Because if. Because when you look at, you know, the hundreds of years we're having trouble right now, you look at the hundreds of years of. Of art and theater and whatnot. Like, it's like, how do you even begin? Sometimes it's just fun to be like, okay, let's look at 1965. What happened there? Who was. Who was winning? Who didn't. Great. Let's. Let's. Let's compare and contrast. Let's talk about xyz. And for me, it's always just a nice jumping off point. And then it's also the same thing with, like any award show. It's just, Just. They're just fun to talk about, even if you don't actually put any stake in them, you know.

[Ben West]

Fair enough. I'll just add.

[Matt Koplik]

But I hear you. I absolutely hear you.

[Ben West]

I'll just add that the Tony Awards were not designed. Not by my submission supposition, but the. I don't know if that's the right word. But in. In per the words of its found their founder. Its founder. We're not designed to be what they are today. So they were not. There was not supposed to be fixed categories. There were not supposed to be formal nominees. No one was supposed to be called the best. And there was not supposed to be a. An award, sort of a speech ceremony, as it were. So it was meant to be outstanding contribution to the theater in any category that. That. Any sort of. Any capacity that. That the wing saw fit. And there was a list of the honorees that is red. And it specifically was not supposed to operate like the Oscars.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Not become competitive or anything like that. No, they. It didn't take very long for it to eventually get its influence from the Oscars and just start going that way. No, no.

[Ben West]

There was a. There was a campaign to. I can't. I can't. I don't want to. I don't want to put the wrong words out there, but you can. Anyone interested can. Can do a little search either in the Times or newspapers. There was a movement to, I believe it was called commercialize the Tony Awards. That was the quote from the wing to make the Tony Awards more commercial. And so this sort of started a different trajectory in terms of. Of what. How they operated is my understanding. Sure. I haven't looked at that in a long time, so don't quote me on it. But I can tell you that they. What they were intended to be is not what they are now.

[Matt Koplik]

But, Ben, if they stayed how they were supposed to be, I wouldn't have my amazing Hal Prince anecdote, and then what would I have for conversation.

[Ben West]

It's true. But I just want to point out for. For folks listening, because we talked about the thumbs up, thumbs down, down. Zoom was not happy when you heard. When you were talking about how Prince sending a letter.

[Matt Koplik]

It sure wasn't. Zoom has thoughts about. No, no. And they're all positive, and they're very mixed on Hell, Prince. This is very true. All right, we're gonna continue in just a second, but we do have to take one last break.

[Ben West]

You're an arrow call dollar. You're the top. You're a cool dollar Tread.

[Matt Koplik]

And we back. So I want to continue sort of going down the 20th century road for American musicals. And we. We don't have to go too in depth, because obviously we want listeners to buy this damn book of yours, Band West. But we can also.

[Ben West]

We also.

[Matt Koplik]

So his book is over 400 pages. There's no way we're going to cover all of it in this episode that you feel like you don't need to buy the book. Even if we were to cover a good chunk, you still be like, I should go buy the book. Because there's no way this is covering 470 pages. So we get past Showboat and we go into the 30s. How would you sort of. I feel like every decade with American musicals, there's sort of like a defining trait about them, even if it's not intentional. There's sort of like. Like you can overlook each decade and pinpoint either a trend or something. It's. It's heading towards, you know, 20s intimate reviews and flapper musicals. And outside of maybe the Ziegfeld Follies, maybe leaning away from the extravaganzas that we had known in the end of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century, and then with the 30s, where do you see the trends going with American musicals? Post shuffle along, post Showboat, post known in the net.

[Ben West]

I would say I would just. I would just add, because for anyone who doesn't have the book, who will hopefully get the book, I don't break up the timeline by decades. So I'LL just add.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you break it up by like categories and genres.

[Ben West]

I put them in, I put them in, period. So basically I talk about the 1800s as one element or one era. The first quarter century. I talk about as one era. Because of specific. Actually, actually very much because of what you're talking about right now. And the question, because of trends that are happening and what's happening with the form. And so in that first quarter century, there's, we have vaudeville, burlesque, nightclubs come about. There's multiple different styles on a legitimate stage extravaganza spectacle. The extravagant reviews as you were talking about, Ziegfeld's stuff, intimate musical comedy, etc, late 20s, I break up is one thing. And then mid century I do 30s and 40s and then 50s and 60s again because they're of the trends that are happening. So anyway, so people can break it up however they want, but the trends are non negotiable. They are, they are there. Yeah. It's documented. So I chose to break it up that way for clarity and, and, and for focus. But nonetheless, you are, you are, you.

[Matt Koplik]

Are RuPaul and Broadway is all the contestants of Drag Race. And you're basically saying, you said what you said and you cannot blame the edit. History happened. These are your trends.

[Ben West]

Here we go.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm trying to make, I'm trying to sell your book in a way, Ben, that anyone will buy it. So not just I love it, but, but also dumb people. Because I, I got a review recently that I just read in the last episode that was a one star review that basically was like, I guess if you like that reality show trash, you're like, this, this. And I shared it on social media and a few people were like, so I know this is a one star review, but it kind of makes you want to listen to your podcast.

[Ben West]

Oh, that's funny. That's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

So our intellectual conversation will stimulate the intellectuals. But I'm also telling people this book is the, is RuPaul.

[Ben West]

It has.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's got sex, it's got violence, it's got jazz, and it's got RuPaul telling Broadway history. You said what you said. Don't blame the edit.

[Ben West]

So don't blame the edit.

[Matt Koplik]

So we've got our, the 30s. How would you sort of, how would.

[Ben West]

You sort of define that era? Yeah, this is, I wouldn't confine it necessarily strictly to the 30s, but one of the major features in the 30s, and if you'll allow me to jump into the 40s or include the 40s, is sophisticated review which is this as you describe. You describe it as intimate review which is something that really starts to come to fruition in the late twenties particularly in the personage of health, Howard Dietz, who I love. I am mad for Howard Dietz and was hugely influential. So sophisticated review is a major force in this period. Something I describe more sophisticated entertainments like the Kurt Weill shows, Mark Blitzstein. The musical comedy realm in terms of sophistication would be something like. Of the icing 1931 Major, Major, Major show and. And some. This is not in the book but something the. That I can't remember. I want to try to quote him correctly but Mark Moss Hart almost said Mark. I don't know what Mark is but Mark Hart, Moss Hart was doing a conversation with or having a conversation with Brooks Atkinson. I don't know the context because it's something I was listening to in one of the archives that I was researching. So I don't know where. Where it was in the world. I just heard it in the archive. There's a. It's a. There's a tape of it. And they were discussing of the I sing very briefly and Mossheart said something to the effect that it was this momentous show. And. And then these are. This is the. I believe roughly the language he used. Never again can there be a regulation musical comedy. So it was really this momentous work. So of the I sing in terms of musical comedy sophistication realm, the Hart Rodgers Abbott shows what else in the 30s, ballet. So again this idea of. And one of the things that I'm trying to do in the book is put everything in context. So just like Shovel Long doesn't come in a vacuum Showboat, not in a vacuum ballet is. And modern dance or contemporary concert dance as it was called is really becoming an integral part of the legitimate stage, particularly in the 30s, especially as it relates to review. But then as you and I'm sure everyone or most people know are familiar with Balanchine and on your toes and I married an angel. So that's one of the trends that happens in the 1930s and in this period. We have having come out of the 1920s, more sophisticated lyrical phrasing language, lyrical musical and lyrical sophistication. This is like Howard Dean, Yip Harber, Carol Arlen, the Gershwins, etc So those are some of the I suppose some of the major trends. We see a disappearance of black authors in particular. We still have black performers maintain a steady and I think what I call a modest presence on the stage in this period, especially in. In predominantly white reviews. For example, Howard Dean Beats in Flying Colors used both a black ensemble and a white ensemble in that show. And there was a Monet Moore, a blues singer, had two big numbers in In Flying Colors. Ethel Waters was in has thousands cheer and At Home Abroad. So there's. Oh, do we get a thumbs up for that?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I. I gave you a thumbs up.

[Ben West]

Oh, you gave me a thumbs up.

[Matt Koplik]

One of my favorite things about the Music Box Theater is that there is an acknowledgement of Ethel Waters and as thousands cheer from that theater. So it's. That's like the nerd in me every time I go into the.

[Ben West]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it.

[Matt Koplik]

I thought it was in the lobby. I think it's.

[Ben West]

There are other posts. There are blown up. I blown up. I think sheet music covers. I don't think they're posters. But on the. The mezzanine level, it's not. Well, there's only two levels, so it's like. It's the. The sort of the second lobby, the upper lobby. Do you think my.

[Matt Koplik]

The. My famous ass is going up to the mezzanine? No. Dead center orchestra always.

[Ben West]

That is what legends best seats are. Front mez, though.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I know. I'm being. I'm being a total dick if I can help it. I try to do front mezzanine for almost any show, but. Yeah, no, I actually. So wait, fun fact. Sorry, this isn't a fun fact. This is a cute little story about my grandfather. Not my great grandfather, the one who gave me that book. My grandfather. The one who was an entertainment lawyer and went on to be the executor of Jerry Box estate till the end of his life. When I was. I got into like the Broadway grosses pretty young. At a like a stupidly young age. I want to say 11 or 12. And I would read them in Variety every day or every week. And I remember being 15, 16, whenever pajama game was happening. And I was talking about the grosses at a family dinner because I'm me. And we were talking about the American Airlines Theater. And I was saying the number of seats that they had, which is like, it's 700 something. It's not. It's not a big theater. And my grandfather was like, no, no, no, no. That's a thousand seat house. Maybe 1100. I was like, no, Papasan. It's. It's not.

[Ben West]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's 750. And Papa takes a beat. And rather than admit he's wrong, he Looks around, all smuggling goes. You know what, everyone? I think I figured it out. What's happened. Matt has spent so much time in the orchestra of a theater, he's forgotten that there's another level. And I got so incensed, I stormed upstairs, grabbed my Variety, brought it back downstairs and pointed to the American Airlines theater on the gross chart and said, 782 seats, Dick. Which wasn't me being mean. His. His name was Richard. But that's funny. But I. I do sometimes lean into that narrative of the mezzanine, please, orchestra only. But you are right, the mezzanine is the best. Is the better section, especially if you're.

[Ben West]

In the front in some cases. It depends, you know, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

Sometimes you don't want to see the markings on the floor, but I like. I think that being in the mezzanine for Lion King was the. Was the correct view. I think being in the.

[Ben West]

Oh, really?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It gave me a good viewpoint of. Of the stage pictures. But like, I think being the orchestra for outsiders was correct because you want to be as close to those boys as possible.

[Ben West]

Ah. I have not seen Outsiders yet, but I will make a note.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ben West]

When I go see it, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't say that it. It's the greatest musical of all time, but it is the most hot and bothered. I'd been in an enclosed space since I saw Challengers, so take that as you will, but.

[Ben West]

So where did that end up on your ranking list, by the way?

[Matt Koplik]

The Outsiders. Yeah, I think it was like number 10, number 11. I can't. I can't remember.

[Ben West]

And you went. You went like one. Is the. Your top ranking? Yes. That's the way you. I was. Okay. Yeah, great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The top five were all plays. It was. I know for. It was. It was stereophonic, I think. Enemy of the People, Ja Jaw's African hair, braiding, Mary Jane, and appropriate. I think those are my top five. I think. Don't quote me on that.

[Ben West]

And was there a musical above Outsiders?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, Illinois was above Outsiders, but those. Those two were my top two musicals of the year. I wasn't a huge fan of most of the musicals this year. It was really the year of plays. Ben. Ben made a face. Everyone, I need everyone to know. We've all. Everyone's aware, but we've been very open. It was.

[Ben West]

It was not. I actually, I would say I did. I have not seen all of the musicals, so it's not. I cannot. I like to. If I'm going to say something about something, I want to make Sure. I know what I'm saying and I want to have seen it and talk about it. So I can't speak about outsiders. I haven't seen it and there are a couple others I have not seen. The ones I have seen have been especially poor and we won't have to.

[Matt Koplik]

Name check them, but everyone can determine for themselves what Ben is referring to. It's a choose your own narrative here, everybody. They're all going to go home tonight and they're all going to think to themselves, okay, what were the shows that Ben thought were particularly poor? And they're going to have like a Homeland style cork word and try to put them all together. But so we bring this back to our.

[Ben West]

Unfortunately, I will say, meaning like, I was super excited to see one in particular. I was my second most most anticipated show of the spring and it was just so, so poor. The first show that I most wanted was most looking forward to is Dead Outlaw, which is not one of the things I'm referencing as so poor.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because Dead Outlaw was off Broadway and there was.

[Ben West]

That's true. It's also. It was off Broadway. That's correct.

[Matt Koplik]

There was a Dead Outlaw. Teeth was a lot of fun. Like there was. There were things off Broadway. There were some things to see. I will, I will say that. But. So this brings us back to. As thousands share with Ethel Waters and the thumbs up. I gave.

[Ben West]

Sorry. Dead Outlaw brings us back to Ethel Waters and a thumbs up.

[Matt Koplik]

You can bring anything back to Ethel Waters. Come on.

[Ben West]

I see. And she goes back to the Plantation. I'm the Plantation nightclub, which is at the Winter Garden Theater.

[Matt Koplik]

No way.

[Ben West]

Good.

[Matt Koplik]

I think about the Waters.

[Ben West]

Everything goes back to the Winter Garden. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I think of. I think of Ethel Waters, I think of Cabin in the sky and I think of member of the wedding.

[Ben West]

Thumbs up.

[Matt Koplik]

Winter Garden Zoom says thumbs up to that.

[Ben West]

Rock there. I like that theater.

[Matt Koplik]

I enjoy that theater. But. So we were talking about Ethel Waters as thousands. Cheers. And those. And those.

[Ben West]

Yeah. So black performers in the, in the 30s into the 40s. What are some other trends? I mean, by the time we get to the. The forties, we have, I suppose one of the trends and the, I mean, the aim of the book is to be, I mean, I should say, not just the book, but just my personal focus. The aim is to be comprehensive and practical and documented accurate in the approach. And so something we didn't address, which we, we don't have to, but the is in the book is the, the trajectory of Tin Pan Alley during this period. And how that migrates west, and then the nature of the popular song begins to change and specifically diverge from the theatrical nature that it was in the first three decades. So that's a trend that happens during this period. But, yeah, yeah. And then we move, you know, the next. The. The. In the 40s, we have this folktale trend, which is undoubtedly typified by Oklahoma, among other. I mean, Oklahoma typifies many other things as well, but in terms of. Your question was to trends. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So. And then with Oklahoma. Well, so I. I remember when Hamilton came out and everyone was asking Sondheim because, you know, he's the authority, well, is this changing the game for Broadway forever? I know I. I said it with the biggest of eye rolls, because I don't think any one artist, let's just.

[Ben West]

He's not. He's brilliant, a brilliant songwriter and. And human, but he did not have a strong grasp on the actual evolution of this art form.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, like, nor is any one artist the, like, deciding factor of anything. You know, it's, as you said, like, nothing is in a vacuum. So I. I always would roll my eyes when people would turn to sometime be like, Mr. Sondheim, is this. Is this the answer to our. To our things? And they'll be like, I don't know. But so. So to his credit, when it came to, like, asking about, is this good or bad? He would never be like, why are you asking me? Like, I. I can't determine what's good about it. I can tell you if I liked it or not. So when Hamilton came out, people were like, is this going to change theater? He's like, well, I can tell you I liked the show. He goes, I can't. We can't tell what's going to have an impact until 20 years from now. And when we look back and see the progression. So being able to look back, can we see any kind of progression that is influenced by the success of Oklahoma? Not just the partnership of Rogers and Hammerstein, but musicals in general.

[Ben West]

Of course. Of course, because of the excellence with which it was written. And then, of course, everyone aiming to, in their own voice and style, emulate the composition or the. The excellence with which the various elements have been integrated.

[Matt Koplik]

So there was. There was an attempt, and I will.

[Ben West]

Say, also from a folktale factor. So there's, you know, so it was.

[Matt Koplik]

More of an attempt to capture the quality, but not so much the formula with which the show was done. Is that what you're saying? Like, people.

[Ben West]

That is what I would say. Yes. Okay. And there's the. The. I. I think when we start to suggest that there is a formula for making a well written and effectively told show, then we get into danger zone, because there's not there. If you look at the. If one looks at some of the very well, exceptionally well written, well composed, composed, I mean, assembled musicals that are extraordinarily effective at telling their story. Virtually all of them, there's probably an exception. Virtually all of them are individual in their character and in the way that they operate. And it's not that every show has an opening number and then there's an I want song and then there's a charm song and then there's a lover's rift at the end of Act 1. So I. I don't know. I've just been very cautious about saying that there's a particular formula or pattern because there's, you know, Gypsy operates in an entirely different way than does Guys and Dolls, for example.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. I think that people get hung up on formula because it's. It is taught people, you know. Yes, yeah, we teach these formulas and I don't think they're taught with the intention of this is how you always have to do it. But it's a way to help understand, you know, what makes good writing sometimes. And once you sort of. Of under. When you know the basic principles and then you can see how different shows differentiate from those principles in their own way, but still make it work within the confines of musical theater. Like, that's kind of exciting and. And can inspire you to do your own thing. As you said, Showboat didn't happen in a vacuum. Oscar Hammerstein was clearly influenced by not only his mentor, but all the things happening around him. Same. That same thing goes for any writer looking at the structure of. Of Guys and Dolls, Gypsy, Fiddler, and then, I don't know, like a chorus line. Like shows that are just so very different from each other but have certain identical bones, maybe in different places than you would realize at first glance, but are there, you know.

[Ben West]

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's. I mean, the. This is one of the reasons why I feel that it's so incredibly important to actually unders. To have an accurate, documented history and actually understand what was happening and specifically the shows and for one to go back to the shows and see how they were made, because it's not. There is not one formula. And I think when we boil it down to, all right, we need to have an I want song, or there is this type of song or there is this Song or is there is this. That happens it at a certain point that it is sort of. That becomes the definition or that becomes the. The. I don't want to say focus. I can't think of the appropriate word here. The narrative that becomes a boiled down version of the narrative. But if one is actually looking at these shows, 1776 operates in a very different manner. So if one is looking at these shows, for me it's about dissecting the individual shows and understanding the excellence where. With which. I mean in the case of shows that are well written, with which they are made and understanding. And this goes back to the thing we were talking about, this idea of being new and different. And even something like Chorus Line you referenced is a musical. What I would call of convention. Convention being matured. Art of musical storytelling, not traditional. That's how I define convention, just to be clear. And that's why the alternate word for me is maturity. So, Corthline Hamilton are musicals of convention in the sense that they are exceptional in the way they tell their stories and well structured. And so that's another thing that I think gets lost in this idea of being new and different, which is different from the I Want song and this song and that song is. Oh well, we don't have to. There's. What is structure? What is this? Well, no, I mean a chorus line works because of its structure and it's a wonderful conceit. I mean there are other elements that make the show work. But ultimately, if something is going to be put on stage and be effective, it must be structured, presumably. And a chorus line is incredibly well structured with an understanding of theatricality, showmanship, storytelling, moment to moment. And it's extraordinary. And you have that in company in Assassins. And so again, that's to go back and I feel like I'm on a soapbox right now. I don't mean to be, but stand.

[Matt Koplik]

On a soapbox, baby. You do it.

[Ben West]

Do it. To go back to what I was saying before, this is the big takeaway from mid 20th century is understanding the craft of storytelling on the musical stage. Structuring, construction and. And how these. The how a story can work on the musical stage. And as I say in the book, and as I say outside the book, there's no one way to make a musical and there's no limit to the stories one can tell on the musical stage. But there is an art to musical storytelling which I describe as a rigorous creative science. And the other thing I'll just will borrow from the book, which relates to this is the, the fact that history is not just facts and figures. It is prospects and possibilities. So this is what I mean about a practical history. And actually, you know, if you don't. If one doesn't like the subject matter of Oklahoma, for example, or one doesn't like the subject matter of Guys and Dolls, it's about investigating how those shows were made. And not necessarily, oh, I love the. The story, or I love these particular characters. But in, in Guys and Dolls in particular, where there are very distinct, vivid characters and we have a story that's exceptionally well told and exceptionally tight.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the best way I would sort of describe your book is that it's not a celebration of the art form alone. It's an exploration of the art form. And by exploring it, it. Celebrating it, you know, like it's. It's not fan service. You are doing a deep dive and in doing the diving, hoping that people will appreciate it even more.

[Ben West]

I think that's a great way to say it. Yeah, yeah. And I hope you can use that.

[Matt Koplik]

Quote if you want, baby.

[Ben West]

I. I will, I will. Yeah. I. And I hope it will be. I hope it will be useful and also I would say a jumping off point because there's only so much that. But as you said, it is 400 plus pages. So it's not like I can dig into every single aspect of Guys and Dolls. And in many cases, actually I'll just add a lot of the shows that are addressed are not the big titles that people are familiar with, in fact, because in many cases it is the. Those titles or those lesser known titles that are feeding this form or progressing the form or representative of something that is happening particularly in the early 20th century. And I spend a great deal of time in the early 20th century, so that there is an understanding of where we come from. So it is, you know, it's not just Oklahoma just happened. No, there is this movement of coming out of the. This particular period, this early period where we want to better this art and lift up this form that we know as the American musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Wonderful. I mean, I don't think I can think of a better way to conclude our interview than with that. If I were to try, I would just mess it up. So I'm. I think I'm gonna take that as our. As our cue. Ben, this has been delightful. Thank you so much for coming on today.

[Ben West]

Thank you for having me. Yes, yes, for sure. For sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Where can people find the American musical evolution of an art form if they care to purchase it?

[Ben West]

It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any of the online retailers. If you are in New York and want to buy it in person, it's at Drama Bookshop, Museum of Broadway gift shop. I think it's a theater circle. So wherever books are sold, as they.

[Matt Koplik]

Say, wherever books are sold, it is quite that legitimate. Yeah. Museum of Broadway. That's a good one to go. Go and. And get it from. Ha. Buy it in the indie gift shop and then go through the museum with the book in hand and try to see if you can.

[Ben West]

Oh, that's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that gives you a nice like 6 hour trip in the museum, I think. Why not? Get your. Get your money's worth, baby. That's an expensive ticket.

[Ben West]

Indeed, indeed. Get your money. Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to try doing that, actually.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you should.

[Ben West]

I think you should.

[Matt Koplik]

I think you should start making that a. A weekly group.

[Ben West]

It'll be like a walk, a reading, a reading tour. But I don't know if you can read the book in six hours. I think that.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you can't read the book in six hours, but you would do selections from the book.

[Ben West]

Selections. Selections from the American musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Little slices of the pie. As. As one might say, Ben, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Ben West]

They can find [e-mail] you can find me on Instagram. I actually just got an Instagram account at the end of last year. I'm not a big social media person, so that's at Benwest Musicals and LinkedIn I do as well. Which is Ben West Musicals. It's all Ben West Musicals. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

When in doubt, it's Ben West Musicals.

[Ben West]

When in doubt, it's BenWest Musicals. [e-mail], if someone feels so moved. Fantastic. Email me. Email me. Some drastic omission that I've made in the book.

[Matt Koplik]

You know that I will. I absolutely will.

[Ben West]

Okay. Okay. I. There is an omissions list in the back, just to be clear. So for people who are upset that I don't do a deep dive on Bravo Giovanni. It is referenced in the back of the book. I just want to be. I want to make that. That.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Ben West]

Bravo Giovanni.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my goodness.

[Ben West]

What? Is that bad? No, it's like that was the last.

[Matt Koplik]

Title I thought I was gonna hear today. Just.

[Ben West]

I'm sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

No, but that's. That's what I love about this podcast is sometimes, sometimes I find a kindred spirit who just, you know, throws in skyscraper and I go, oh, okay, first.

[Ben West]

Let'S talk about skyscraper for a second. Because that's actually not an awful show. And that is part of the problem with this trajectory of popular song moving away from theatrical stage because we have Jimmy Van Heusen and Sammy Khan who are very successful in Hollywood but don't really understand writing for the theater. This is Johnny Burke as well, who was with Jimmy Van Heusen before Sammy Khan. I'm not a Sammy Khan fan. Love Johnny Burke, but not his theatrical stuff because he doesn't understand how to write for the theatrical stage. The people will know Carnival and Flanders, that's Johnny Burke and Jimmy Van Heusen and. And Nellie Bly. For the real obscure folks.

[Matt Koplik]

Carnival and Flanders, for those of you who don't know is Dolores Gray's Tony Award. That actually might hold the record as the fewest performances a Tony winning performance has given. Carnival and Flanders for Dolores Gray. I'm.

[Ben West]

I'm not up on that, but I think that's accurate.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, as someone who hates the Tony Awards and wants them to burn.

[Ben West]

I didn't say hate. Hold on.

[Matt Koplik]

You said what you said. Said do not blame the edit.

[Ben West]

That's true. Let's go back to the edit. Let's go find the tape.

[Matt Koplik]

Roll the tape. No, it's. I'm pretty sure that is the shortest. I think it is.

[Ben West]

I haven't.

[Matt Koplik]

For a Tony. For a Tony winning performance. Again, I'll look it up. I'll look it up in Stephen Suskin. He'll know it's. I'm pretty sure it's an opening nights on Broadway. But. So you're saying Skyscraper.

[Ben West]

Anyway. So. Yes, Skyscraper is. So the. There's a score problem that happens. But what I really appreciate and like about the show is some of the character of the show characters and some of the way it's composed, meaning assembled. And that is in the Peter Stone department who wrote the book. And so there's just some, some of the, the. The composition structuring intrigues me and I'm just excited by it. And I, I appreciate that aspect to an extent. I'm not advocating that it be reborn. I'm just making a little note about. It's. It's like there's some value in, in investigating Skyscraper and, and I think if I remember correctly and this is going into the weeds and I'm not sure this is accurate, but I think Skyscraper was supposed to be a separate show from an adaptation of Dream Girl. And I believe Carolyn Lee and Cy Coleman were at one time working on. On it. Someone needs to check that to be sure. But I believe that's Accurate.

[Matt Koplik]

Some. Somebody check that, y'.

[Ben West]

All. We'll. We'll. We'll.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll figure. We'll figure that out.

[Ben West]

I think so. Don't. Again, don't quote me. We need to fact check that, but I think that's accurate.

[Matt Koplik]

I would never dream of quoting you, Ben. I. I know you. I know you too well. Now. I won't do it.

[Ben West]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

All right, well, if you got. If you guys want to follow me, I am on Instagram at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you do like the podcast Broadway Breakdown, you can give us a nice five star rating, write us a little review. You guys are really good at writing those reviews. They are very articulate and beautiful and funny, and they move me very dearly. They move my mom. She really likes to read them, and she'll take screenshots and send them to my grandma because. Or both of my grandmothers, actually, because they don't really know how podcasts work, but they like to know that people listen, so that's fun. Ben. We close out every episode with a Broadway. Broadway diva. I will put her in post after we finish recording, but you get to choose the Broadway diva who will sing out your episode today. Is there a diva in mind for you, Julie Harrison Skyscraper? Is that who you want?

[Ben West]

Absolutely not. 100%, no. Actually, the person that really fascinates me, there's only one recording that I've ever heard of her, so she's probably not a good one to choose. That would be Ray Samuels, who was a major vaudeville star. But there's no.

[Matt Koplik]

There's only one recording of her, as.

[Ben West]

Far as I know. Yeah. From a film, actually, so. Gosh. Okay. That's an excellent question. Oh, can we do. Because this is just kind of fun and obscure. Can we do. Can I pick the song as well?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, if I can find it after this.

[Ben West]

Actually, we can. So it can be. I should say it can be whomever. It's your podcast. Podcast. But if you're asking me, the two that I would jump to are Esther Walker and Dolly K. Who were early female performers. They did recordings and were major in vaudeville. Esther Walker did a couple legit shows. I don't believe Dolly K did any, to my knowledge at this point. So if we can do. So there's a song called Sahara, we'll soon be dry like you, which was a prohibition piece. Oh, Zoom likes it.

[Matt Koplik]

That might be the one we do. Because Zoom liked that pick.

[Ben West]

Zoom liked it, so it's Esther Walker. Sahara will soon be dry like you. That would be cool. Or anything really dully K. I suppose. I'm a big Dolly K fan.

[Matt Koplik]

Zoom has yet to like the. The Dolly K suggestion, so it might be Esther Walker, but we'll. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out in post. So either Esther. Esther Walker, Sahara or Dolly K. Anything. I will.

[Ben West]

Yeah, I will.

[Matt Koplik]

I will look into both and see.

[Ben West]

Or, you know. It's a good one. Belle. I. I shouldn't be asked questions, I think. Oh, I'm just gonna go on. I'm gonna. Belle Baker. This is a let's do this one because this is a great piece of comedy writing. It's a wonderful piece. Let's do this one instead. Can we change? Is that all right?

[Matt Koplik]

No, we can't change. The episode's over. It's happened. No Bell Baker. What do you want then? Bell Baker.

[Ben West]

Doing what? Bell Baker. Yes. Excuse me. Bell Baker. I've got the yes, we have no banana blues. This is a number that is a satirical lament that satirizes yes, we have no bananas. We have no bananas craze.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, we have no bananas. We have no bananas today.

[Ben West]

This is excellent comedy writing. Lyric by Lou Brown. Music by James F. Hanley and Robert K. King, and Lou Brown and James Hanley wrote a number of songs together in a very brief period of time. Early 20s.

[Matt Koplik]

Love it. Okay, so that. That'll be it. I will.

[Ben West]

That'll be our Bell Baker version.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, the Bell Baker version. Fantastic. Check us back next week, y'. All. We will have a quick return to Problematic Question Mark, the shows you're mad at and their possible redemption. It's either one or two more episodes of that, then we'll take a quick break and go back and come back with a new series. But you will get a new episode next week from Problematic Question Mark. Until then, I am Matt Koplik, and this is Belle Baker with the. Say the title again, Ben.

[Ben West]

I've got the yes, we have no Bananas blues.

[Matt Koplik]

Take it away, Belle. Bye.

[Ben West]

We have no banana. The blue. I've got the blue and when I hear it, oh, how I fear it it's just like hearing that new. It hasn't got a bit of sense and I go wild when they come in. Bananas, bananas. I wish I could break up a million pianas Day by day, week by week if yes, we have no banana.