The American Musical w/ Ben West - Broadway Breakdown

Transcript

Matt Koplik (0:00)

Hey guys, it's Matt giving you a quick update before our interview with Mr. Ben West. First, I want to apologize from last week. I had the venue wrong for BroadwayCon. I didn't check the website. I just went with where it was last year because that's all I knew. And that's when I did my panel. Or rather I should say when I guested on a panel. Last year it was at the Marriott. This year it is at the Hilton in Midtown. So if you are interested in going to BroadwayCon, that is where it's going to be on 6th Aven. The date is still correct, July 27th. We still don't have a time slot. We are almost ready to announce the guest or guests depending on how it all shapes up. But BPN will be confirming with me where they are at sometime today or first thing in the morning on Thursday when this episode drops and we will have everything locked in. So hopefully by the next episode we will have the official announcement of that. Other points of business, if you haven't joined yet, please I would love it if you joined the Broadway Breakdown Discord Channel. I will have the link once again in the episode description. In our first week we have almost 50 members and it's going really great. We have sub channels to talk about new episodes of Broadway Breakdown, to talk about sort of theater in general, ticketing advice for, you know, if you need tips on Rush or Lotto or discounted tickets or whatever, stuff like that, and then a whole random thread to just sort of talk about movies, books, whatever, the whole world and culture at large. But it's been a lot of fun and we have had a nice discussion prior to the Once Upon a Mattress casting coming out, discussing who we were thinking could possibly get put into the show and then when the casting was announced talking about that. And there's been some talk about the nine production or semi concert production that's happening at Kennedy center this summer. It's a fun time and anyone who joins you'll be warmly welcomed. It's a good group and just keeps growing day by day. So yeah, please join us there. And last but not least, we have two new reviews to read and I wanted to do it now because if I didn't read them for this episode it would be like another three weeks till you got to hear your handiwork. So I want to give you guys your roses now please play the Light and the Piazza Overture Music 5 stars One of the best Broadway podcasts out there. Every episode of this show is like having a long nuanced debate with a friend who knows nearly everything there is to know about modern Broadway. When it comes to matters of opinion, Matt and I don't agree all the time or even most of the time. But I look forward to his show every week and appreciate his thoughtful commentaries on shows past and present. His guests are just as knowledgeable as he is. They're a treat every time. Just a real gem of a show all around. Thank you very much, Liz. That's a wonderful review to get. And listen, I've said this before, I'll say it again. You don't have to agree with me. If I can get you to understand my point of view and you still don't agree, but you can get where I'm coming from, then I think I've done about as good a job as anyone can. I don't love it when people just agree, you know, I would love it if more people agree with me, but I don't want it to always be that because how else am I gonna, you know, get better? Next review, 5 stars. An updated review with an exclamation point. I haven't left a review since the old version of this podcast, but now that I visit New York yearly for a Broadway trip every spring, I think it is due for an updated review. Matt transparently lets the listener into the Broadway community scene unlike anyone else in the industry. His investigative breakdowns into the musicals of the past remind us of the trends of the Broadway that once was, what it turned to and where we are going. I believe that an entire college level class could be taught on Matt's material alone. As for discussing the current seasons, I feel like we're right there in the middle of all of it, thanks to him. Thank you, Matt. You have created great discussion of history for the little place we call Broadway. And that is from J. Pardon? Thank you very much, Jay. That was lovely. You guys are so good at these and I love reading them. I love sending them to my mom and, and actually, and my grandmother. Speaking of which, other update, we did see Stereophonic this Tuesday. And by we I mean myself because my grandmother, Sally Koplik, who is 100, came down with a cold a few days ago and she's a lot better now, thank you guys for asking. She had some wine today, so clearly she's doing okay. But she had a really bad cough for most of the past week and was, you know, while feeling better, just still kind of felt crummy and she didn't really want to go to the show for three hours and just be coughing the whole time and not feeling great. So I took my friend Sarah and we had a lovely time and hopefully she and I can still go and see the show maybe in September when prices will probably lower a bit. And yeah, there was talk about maybe doing a bonus episode with her, talking about Stereophonic and some of the shows she has seen over her hundred years of living. And I will investigate about that, see if I can get her to warm up to that. I think it would have been easier to get the ball rolling while talking about Stereophonic. It's a little difficult to just like flat out interview her. Same thing with my other grandmother with Nanny. She's happy to talk, just not on mic. So we'll see what happens, but I'll keep you guys posted. And that's it for now. So enjoy this episode with Ben West. Give my regards to Broadway Remember me to Herald Square Tell all the gang.

Summary

Broadway Breakdown — “The American Musical” with Ben West
Podcast Summary
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Ben West (theater historian and author of The American Musical: Evolution of an Art Form)
Date: July 11, 2024

Episode Overview

In this episode, Matt Koplik welcomes Ben West, noted theater historian and author, to trace and dissect the origins, misconceptions, and evolution of the American musical. Their lively, passionate conversation charts the art form’s development from minstrel shows to modern masterpieces, tackles persistent myths about Broadway history, and offers advice for young writers and theater lovers. The discussion mixes deep facts, personal experiences, and opinionated (often hilarious) commentary in classic Broadway Breakdown fashion.

Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben West’s Musical Roots

[07:22] Ben discusses his early fascination with theater—putting on puppet shows and musicals as a child in Chicago and Miami.
His first Broadway show was “Sunset Boulevard” with Glenn Close (and Alice Ripley), a trip that included a ticket scam and a happy ending at the Minskoff Theatre.
[10:09] “My mom fell in love with Alice Ripley. And I get it. Especially 90s Alice Ripley is prime.”

Memorable Quote:

“I was here for what, 10 minutes... I got the whole situation in 10 minutes. It’s the beginning of Thoroughly Modern Millie. Welcome to New York, it’s been waiting for you.” — Matt ([12:29])

2. Formative Shows and Early Influences

The impact of formative musicals like “The Fix” (Donmar, London, 1997) and “Triumph of Love” (Broadway, closing weekend).
The importance of rare experiences: “That’s a very fortunate one to see.” — Ben ([16:12])

3. Discovering Theater History

Matt and Ben swap stories about the books that opened up Broadway history (“Opening Nights on Broadway,” Stanley Green’s “Show by Show”).
[18:22] Ben talks about Cy Coleman’s “The Life” souvenir program leading him to discover columnist Lee and the deep well of cast recordings.
[20:05] Discussion of classic theater history books being selective (“They’re making no illusions that this is a complete... it’s just some key shows”).

4. Misconceptions About Musical Theater History

Ben highlights “myths that just snowballed”:

[23:23] The Oklahoma! Myth:
- “Oklahoma! is the first integrated book musical” — Not true. Earlier shows were striving for story integration and structure.
Review and Burlesque:
- Modern understanding often mistakes revue (scripted variety without story, historically vital) for compilation style like “Fosse.”
- Burlesque pre-1930s was more comedy/slapstick than striptease.
Formulaic “Golden Age” Myths:
- Pre-1970s musicals dismissed as “one story, one sound, one set of characters, weak women, and nothing to do with society, politics, culture” are “completely false on its face.”
[27:26] Reference to current figures (e.g., Lear deBessonet at Encores!) misunderstanding or mischaracterizing the era.

Notable Rant:

“If you think that every show pre-1970 was that, why are you in theater? For every ‘Bloomer Girl,’ there is a musical with actually a great female character. Calm down.” — Matt ([27:26])

5. Correcting the Narrative: Examples & Counterarguments

[27:56] Ben cites “Lady in the Dark” (1941): strong women, non-traditional romance, psychological depth—defying stereotypes of the era.
Refutes Sondheim’s claim that Golden Age songs were all AABA:
- “It’s very popular, but it’s not the only structure... especially in Tin Pan Alley.”

6. The Progression of the Art Form

[34:44] More Than Nostalgia:
- Musicals up to the 1960s were driven by a quest for artistic maturity and narrative excellence, not just escapism.
- Writers then balanced artistic ambition with audience appeal, a delicate blend sometimes lost today.
[39:20] “You have to also write for an audience... the medium should evolve, but not hold people at arm’s length.” — Matt
[41:02] Ben’s challenge to younger writers:
- Ignoring Rodgers & Hart, Hammerstein, Frank Loesser, etc. leaves a “gap in excellence, professionalism, storytelling” for new generations.

Memorable Quote:

“It matured in the middle of the 20th century... dismissing the works prior to that, you are missing possibilities of excellence... 1,000%.” — Ben ([41:02])

7. Tracing The Roots: Where Did the American Musical Come From?

[44:25] The origins:
- Minstrelsy (1843), variety shows, burlesque (comedy-forward in early 1900s), Gilbert & Sullivan’s influence, influx of Black musical theatre.
- “It’s not exactly a straight line... it’s a complicated scene-scape of different styles and forms” — Ben ([45:59])
Debunking the “Black Crook Myth”: Not really the “first” American musical, but famous due to its long run and spectacle ([49:06]–[52:48]).

8. Shifts Toward Integration

[56:35] Princess Theater musicals (Kern, minor integration), and increasing sophistication in the integration of song and story through the 20th century. Opera and vaudeville both provided influences in structure and performance style.
[58:12] Vaudeville’s impact: sharpness, immediacy, “five minutes to put over your act”—these values deeply infect later musical construction.

9. Surprises in Research: Nightclub Influence

[60:38] Ben shares fascination at discovering how integral nightclub revues were to Broadway’s development in the teens–forties.
Nightclubs functioned like mini-theaters, often importing entire elaborate stage shows to Broadway.
“There’s not even a line that exists in terms of separating legitimate shows from nightclubs...” — Ben ([63:44])

10. Major Milestones & Lost Shows: “Shuffle Along,” “Show Boat,” and More

[67:35] “Shuffle Along” (1921):
- Huge for Black artistry, catalyzed the Harlem Renaissance, launched careers of Florence Mills and Paul Robeson.
- “Not the first Black musical but a culmination — it was absolutely an incontrovertible milestone...” ([69:20])
- Noted the critical (and fastidiously accurate!) but unflashy contributions of artists like Bob Cole, Alex Rogers, Henry Creamer.
“Show Boat” (1927):
- Not the first “book musical” but a technical and tonal milestone, integrating strong narrative, music, and challenging subject matter (notably race).

11. 1930s–1960s: Era Definitions and Trends

[87:49] Ben structures theater history by stylistic “eras,” not strict decades to better serve the art’s evolution:
- 1920s: Flapper musicals, intimate revues, a move away from earlier extravaganza.
- 1930s–40s: Emergence of “sophisticated revue” (Dietz, Yip Harburg, Kurt Weill, etc.), more literary content, further integration of ballet and modern dance.
- Notable: Disappearance of Black authors from Broadway but continued, if modest, presence of Black performers (Ethel Waters, etc.).

12. “Oklahoma!” and the Folktale Wave

[100:16] After “Oklahoma!” (1943), there’s a drive for storytelling excellence and integration, but not a single formula or template.
Cautioning against the industry’s overemphasis on “I want songs” or rigid templates — the best musicals each have distinct architecture.
[104:28] “Guys and Dolls” vs. “Gypsy” vs. “Chorus Line”: all exceptional, none fitting a cookie-cutter.

13. The Value of Studying History: For Writers and Audience

[108:11] Ben describes the craft of musical storytelling as a “rigorous creative science,” essential for today’s writers to study in context.
The book prioritizes not just canonical works, but overlooked shows and epochs, with the aim of providing a “jumping off point” for deeper exploration.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Matt (re: misconceptions):
"If you think all pre-1970s musicals are weak women, one sound... why are you in theatre?" ([27:26])
Ben (on history's function):
“History is not just facts and figures. It is prospects and possibilities.” ([107:00])
On the marathon of nightclub-to-Broadway transitions:
“There’s not even a line... separating legitimate shows from nightclubs.” — Ben ([63:44])
On forms and formulas:
“There’s no one formula. If you look at the exceptionally well written musicals... all are individual in their character and the way they operate... I’m very cautious about saying there’s a particular formula.” — Ben ([102:12])
The “Al Jolson–Taylor Swift” Moment ([77:15]): Matt: “Al Jolson, the Taylor Swift of his day. That might have to go on merch.”
On what musical theater means to the American experience:
“The stage is the quickest way to the people.” — Florence Mills, quoted by Ben ([79:49])

Essential Timestamps

07:22–10:09 — Ben’s first theater experiences, first Broadway show
15:29–16:50 — “Triumph of Love” and formative theater moments
20:05–20:32 — The bias of early musical theater history books
23:23–27:56 — “Oklahoma!” myth, revue and burlesque misconceptions, challenge to current artistic directors
45:59–49:06 — Mapping the origins of the American musical
52:48–53:40 — Princess musicals, their place in development
60:38–64:17 — Nightclubs as a precursor and their overlooked theater legacy
67:35–73:29 — The importance and (mis)understanding of “Shuffle Along” and “Show Boat”
87:49–93:10 — How Ben divides up the timeline, key trends in 1930s–1940s
100:16–103:28 — “Oklahoma!” and the dangers of formula

Where to Find Ben West and His Book

The American Musical: Evolution of an Art Form is available:
- Online (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc.)
- In-person (Drama Book Shop, Museum of Broadway gift shop, Theatre Circle in NYC)
Ben West Musicals website: benwestmusicals.com
Instagram: @benwestmusicals

Final Thoughts & Tone

Matt and Ben’s conversation is spirited, detail-rich, occasionally foul-mouthed, and always opinionated, blending deep knowledge with a playful, “theater geek” energy. The episode bursts with insider references, excavated facts, and myth-busting. Both speakers emphasize how learning the real, messy, multi-threaded history of musical theater can enrich creators and audiences alike — and how “everything old” is worth a fresh look.

Closing Diva

For the outro, the guest chooses a “deep cut”: Belle Baker’s “I’ve Got the Yes, We Have No Bananas Blues,” a novelty piece that matches the episode’s delight in comedy history and forgotten gems.

To learn more, dig up the book, subscribe to the Broadway Breakdown Discord, or revisit this episode’s timestamps.