Broadway Breakdown Podcast

Episode: The Book of Mormon w/ Kyle Marshall
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Kyle Marshall (Putting It Together podcast)
Date: January 18, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode is part of Broadway Breakdown’s “Problematic Question Mark” series, examining Broadway shows that have drawn ire and sparked controversy. Host Matt Koplik and returning guest Kyle Marshall tackle The Book of Mormon, dissecting its creation, content, comic legacy, and ongoing debates about its racial and cultural portrayals. With their trademark humor and deep theater knowledge, Matt and Kyle discuss the show’s musicality, comedic evolution, changed perspectives over time, and what, if anything, counts as redemption or cancellation-worthy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Connections and First Experiences

• Kyle’s Introduction ([02:49]):
  • Grew up watching South Park with his parents in the 90s; developed an early respect for Trey Parker and Matt Stone, noting how Stephen Sondheim praised their musical writing on the South Park movie.
  • Closely followed the trajectory from that film to the eventual Book of Mormon, even tracking rumors and album releases.
  • Saw the musical live in Calgary in 2015, recalling,

    "It was the loudest I have heard people laugh in an auditorium... women in their seventies in front of me were the loudest laughers." ([06:52])

• Matt’s Introduction ([07:43]):
  • Was a fan of South Park and eventually became obsessed with the South Park movie as a musical. He notes its craft and Sondheim influence, linking that to Book of Mormon’s sophisticated musicality.
  • Attended an early Book of Mormon Broadway performance, noting subdued but appreciative matinee audiences and the shift to raucous laughter for “Joseph Smith American Moses.”

2. Development History & Creative Roots

• Origins of the Show ([09:13]):
  • Trey Parker and Matt Stone worked on the musical over years, often during South Park’s hiatuses, partnering with Robert Lopez (Avenue Q).
  • “They worked on it for like seven years… did so many workshops for the show.” — Kyle ([09:53])
• Songwriting Expertise ([28:25]):
  • Both hosts praise Parker, Stone, and Lopez’s skills as lyricists and their affection for classic musical theater structures:

    "The truth is that it adheres to the traditional structure of a musical. It's just the nuances of it that are antagonistic a bit, but it's ultimately a very optimistic show.” — Matt ([31:18])

• Meta-Musical Humor
  • Their love for musicals appears both in Book of Mormon's writing and in specific South Park episodes (“Broadway Bro Down,” “Miracle Worker”), as well as frequent homage to musical tropes.

3. Broad Plot and Core Characters

• Synopsis ([22:57]):
  • Two young Mormon missionaries, Elder Price (the golden boy) and Elder Cunningham (the oddball), are sent to Uganda expecting spiritual adventure, only to be confronted with cultural clashes, suffering villagers, and their own religious limitations.
  • They ultimately inspire the villagers—not with the literal teachings of Mormonism, but with hopeful, metaphorical stories—and a new, locally rewritten gospel emerges (“The Book of Arnold”).
  • Notable plot points, comic reversals, and the show’s tonal qualities are explored with respect to both satire and heart.

4. Comedy, Satire, and Changing Critical Lenses

• South Park’s Influence ([10:59], [11:53]):
  • Both hosts draw distinctions between South Park’s character-driven, satirical writing and the looser satire of shows like Family Guy (“just saying random things for 25 minutes is not South Park” — Kyle ([10:59])).
• Aging Comedy & Topicality ([12:21]):
  • The challenge for the creators: Book of Mormon was developed slowly, but their prior work was hyper-topical. Matt shares concerns about whether the humor would remain relevant by the time the show premiered; both note the show's skill in retaining resonance.
• Comedy Aging & Offensiveness ([14:22], [48:56]):
  • They discuss how comedy ages quickly, and lines about race that may have been seen as satirical in 2011 can read as problematic a decade later, especially after 2016 and 2020 brought sharper focus to racial and representational issues.

5. Controversy, Criticism & Revisions

• Controversial Aspects ([35:37]):
  • The musical faced initial backlash from Mormons, which dissipated as church members ultimately embraced the show’s accuracy and purchased ad space in Playbills.
• Racial Reckoning & Post-2020 Discourse ([36:32]):
  • After 2020, critics began viewing the show's African depictions and "white savior" elements as more troubling.
  • In response, the creatives sat down with current and former Black cast members to revisit material.
    • Notable script/stage changes: Nabulungi's technology is modernized; she gets more agency in scaring off the warlord; racial jokes are softened or replaced (e.g., Marvel references substitute for old punchlines); Elder Cunningham's weight jokes become about his weirdness instead.

      “They wanted her [Nabulungi] to seem less naive… she now has an iPad.” — Matt ([41:31])
      “They cut all references to Elder Cunningham's weight. Now it's just that he's weird.” — Matt ([45:10])

    • Changes to “I Am Africa” staging clarify the satirical target (“the white Mormons are the joke” — [47:19]).
• Ongoing Debate About Racism ([56:40]):
  • Both hosts reckon with the line between satire, stereotype, and outright racism.

    “It never tips into racism for me... Any time the joke is like, aren't these people stupid, it's always shown to be the two Mormons to be on the short end.” — Kyle ([101:50])

  • They acknowledge some criticisms are fair, especially regarding lack of specificity for Ugandan characters and over-reliance on African tropes.

6. Musical Craft, Performance, and Favorite Numbers

• Songs and Staging

  • Both hosts lavish praise on the score’s construction, melodic strength, and witty lyrics.
  • Favorite numbers include “I Believe” (Kyle), “Turn It Off,” “Hello,” “You and Me (But Mostly Me),” and especially “Joseph Smith, American Moses” for its choreography and reference to “Small House of Uncle Thomas.”

    “The score is a 10 out of 10, no skips.” — Brantley (quoted by Matt) ([86:15])

  • They recall the delight at layered, Les Mis-style reprises in “Man Up”:

    “I fully let out a full body gay musical theater shudder.” — Matt ([96:55])

• Original Performers & Casting Impact ([71:34]):

  • They discuss how Reynolds, Gad, and Nikki M. James (Nabulungi) shaped the original production and awards season, with James’ “Salt Lake City” providing heartfelt emotional gravity in an otherwise comic show.

• Notable Staging Moments

  • Staging and performer ages originally played for satiric effect (e.g., “When Reynolds first sang ‘now that I'm 19’ you could tell the comedy was he was clearly not”). ([74:20])

7. Contemporary Reception, Endurance & Future Directions

• Why Does the Show Still Succeed? ([111:30])

  • Despite controversy, Book of Mormon still sells, converts musical “non-fans,” and gets strong audience reactions.
  • The hosts question if widespread criticism is a function of its popularity—“once something’s hugely successful, it becomes a target.”

• Will Parker & Stone Do Broadway Again? ([118:13])

  • Both doubt the creators will return to Broadway, speculating Parker and Stone have little incentive to revisit the collaborative, high-stakes process of mounting a new stage musical.

• Calls for Counter-Narratives ([132:43])

  • Matt and Kyle suggest they’d love to see musicals centering Ugandan or African perspectives in response (similar to how Miss Saigon inspired Asian-American work), but aren't aware of direct examples yet.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Comedy and Satire:

  • “Comedy ages faster than anything. So when the comedy does hold up, it’s pretty miraculous.” — Matt ([12:46])
  • “When something could happen, does happen, and it's not silly, it's quite real. You don’t like when people make light of it, because you’re like: no, don’t undercut the severity of this way of thinking.” — Matt ([52:19])

• On Representation:

  • “I think the criticisms that I have the most sympathy with... they spent so much time getting all the Mormon stuff right, it is a little bit too bad... they didn't spend the same time with Ugandans.” — Kyle ([83:02])

• On Audience Reaction:

  • “The audience was a little bit like, okay, let’s see what this is. Because everyone also knew that it was like a little offensive… Where it got raucous was Act 2, Joseph Smith, American Moses — the audience absolutely lost their [shit].” — Matt ([20:19])

• On the Show’s Ongoing Power:

  • “Every time I think, ‘well, this is the end of the road for it,’ it kind of gets like a second wind or has way more success than I think it was going to.” — Kyle ([128:05])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Show & Guest Intro: 00:33 – 02:14
• Personal Experiences with South Park & Book of Mormon: 02:49 – 08:22
• Development History & Songwriting: 09:13 – 12:46
• Show Synopsis and Major Characters: 22:52 – 28:07
• Discussion on Comedy Aging & Offensiveness: 12:21 – 14:52; 48:56 – 52:19
• Controversies and Script Changes Post-2020: 36:32 – 47:19
• Debate on Racism, Stereotyping, and Satire: 56:40 – 83:31
• Favorite Songs & Musical Highlights: 93:57 – 99:59
• Legacy, Endurance, and Broader Reflections: 111:30 – 119:26
• Calls for Future Musicals from Ugandan Perspective: 132:43 – 134:41
• Wrap-up and Plugs: 139:01 – End

Final Thoughts

Both hosts express complex and sometimes conflicted feelings about Book of Mormon: they love its craft, recognize its place in Broadway history, but understand and share many ethical concerns about representation and the “white savior” narrative. They argue its enduring popularity suggests artistic merits and ongoing audience relevance, yet agree revisions made after 2020 were necessary—and perhaps incomplete. They champion more works from underrepresented voices and recommend continued, nuanced debate, rather than absolutist calls for cancellation or uncritical praise.

For more from Matt and Kyle, check out:

• Broadway Breakdown on all platforms
• Putting It Together podcast for Sondheim deep-dives
• Follow Matt (@mattkoplik) and Kyle (@SondheimPodcast, @TheKyleMarshall)

Closing Diva Choice:
Mary Kay Bergman (original voice of Cartman’s mom in South Park), with “Blame Canada.” ([141:44])