THE INHERITANCE w/ Robbie Rozelle

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: "THE INHERITANCE w/ Robbie Rozelle" (March 14, 2024)

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Main Theme

This episode of Broadway Breakdown dives deep into Matthew Lopez’s epic, two-part play The Inheritance, exploring its inspirations, its cultural impact, and the controversial discussions it sparked about representation, storytelling, and “problematic” art in contemporary theatre. Host Matt Koplik and guest Robbie Rozelle offer an opinionated, hilarious, and passionate unpacking of the show’s merits and flaws, with side journeys through Broadway history and queer culture.

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Episode Breakdown

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1. Setting the Stage: Technical Difficulties & Friendship

[00:30 - 02:04]

• Matt recounts the disastrous first attempt at recording the episode (recorder died), leading to jokes about killed careers and gratitude for Robbie’s mics.
• The hosts set a playful, candid tone, embracing the “bumps” of gay life and podcasting.
• “Just like every gay man's journey, there were some bumps, but we persevered.” — Matt (01:44)

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2. The Inheritance: Initial Impressions & Hype

[02:10 - 06:22]

• The Inheritance is introduced as “a gay fantasia on Howards End themes,” written by Matthew Lopez.
• Robbie recalls being invited to see the Broadway run and being moved to tears, but notes the impracticality of repeat viewings due to length and heaviness.
• Matt reflects on hearing about the play’s UK success and skepticism surrounding transatlantic hype: “Hype is really a dangerous knife's edge. Because you need it to get momentum going. But if it goes too big, nothing can live up to it.” — Matt (06:09)
• Discussion about high-profile shows that lived up to (or didn’t live up to) hype, including Hamilton and Hairspray.

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3. "Problematic" in Context

[10:45 - 14:44]

• The hosts unpack the “problematic” label and how it's often misapplied to shows dealing with uncomfortable material.
• Matt: “People use the word, I don't want to say stupidly, but stupidly... Rather than sit in the discomfort and go, ‘Oh, maybe this show wants me to feel all these kinds of ways,’ they go, 'Well, no, it's problematic.'” (11:47)
• Nuance, complexity, and the value of flawed characters in theatre and family films is passionately defended.

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4. The Plot: The Inheritance Explained

[16:27 - 34:05]

• Robbie and Matt give a detailed breakdown of The Inheritance plot, emphasizing its roots in E.M. Forster’s Howards End and the sprawling web of characters and relationships.
• Main characters: Toby Darling (novelist/playwright), his boyfriend Eric, older couple Walter and Henry Wilcox, wealthy ingénue Adam, and rent boy Leo.
• The inheritance of a rural house becomes symbolic of AIDS-era memory, loss, and queer community (21:10–23:24).
• “This thing has more names in it than I did in my 20s.” — Robbie (16:53)
• The plot’s convolutions are humorously dissected, including ensemble narration, overlapping storytelling, and the emotional high point (the “ghosts” scene at the end of Part One).

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5. AIDS Legacy, Representation & Criticism

[34:13 - 52:01]

• Robbie shares his emotional connection as someone who lived through the AIDS crisis: “I do jokes. You’re a vulnerable person sometimes.” — Robbie (32:17)
• Both recall the evolution of queer representation onstage and onscreen: from celebrating any visibility (even in flawed works), to current expectations that every film/play must be universally representative.
• Main criticism of The Inheritance: focus on wealthy, mostly white, gay men. They contextualize this in both Forster’s original and Lopez’s adaptation.
• Critique of calls for BIPOC/queer creators to only tell “their own stories,” with Matt and Robbie agreeing on the importance of artistic freedom: “Why should I only write about being Latin? Like, is that all that matters to you?” — Matt on Lopez’s critics (50:56)
• On casting controversies: Both support the idea that sexuality and gender are more fluid for casting than race, with examples drawn from Broadway history. (53:07–55:37)

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6. Play Structure, Length, and Thematic Focus

[56:25 - 83:41]

• Discussion of character arcs, especially Toby’s self-destruction and Eric’s steady decency.
• Critique of the play’s sprawling structure and “overwritten” tendencies—“seven hours long. Doesn’t need to be.” — Robbie (79:35)
• Matt notes, “I think it’s incredibly overwritten. There’s a lot of fat in this play.” (79:33)
• Examination of E.M. Forster as both narrator and character, and the ethics/limitations of cross-era storytelling. (83:46–85:17)
• Side-by-side with Howards End’s critique of privilege and property.

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7. Sex and Darkness in The Inheritance

[67:26 - 73:53]

• The hosts discuss the play’s portrayal of gay sex: two major explicit scenes both involve violence or trauma, never “positive” sexuality.
• “Every time sex is shown in this play, it is a weapon... it almost reads, gay sex is bad. Gay sex will kill you.” — Robbie (71:44)
• They agree that the play’s sexual politics, while perhaps realistic for the era/themes, can feel one-dimensional and problematic in their own right.

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8. The Production: Design, Direction, and Reception

[93:10 - 104:31]

• Praise for Stephen Daldry's direction and Bob Crowley’s sets—minimalist, symbolic, with stunning use of the table stage and the eventual arrival of the dollhouse and tree.
• “Gorgeous... deceptively simple... most of the cast was in white, various shades of beige.” — Robbie (93:33)
• The shift in advertising as the show struggled to catch on, and how Broadway’s marketing often leans into “importance.”
• Comparisons to other plays that center trauma and “event” theatre.

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9. Awards, Legacy, and Enduring Questions

[104:31 - 116:09]

• Discussion of The Inheritance’s Tony wins (and whether it would have triumphed in a full non-pandemic season).
• Comparison to other multi-part, epic plays (Angels in America, Harry Potter), and how audience expectations have changed in the streaming era.
• The likelihood (or unlikelihood) of major revivals or wider cultural footprint, considering its complexity and length.

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10. Earnestness, Popularity, and The Future of Queer Theatre

[77:17 - 78:48]

• Analysis of why deeply earnest works often face backlash from within the community—audiences seem to crave irony or at least some self-awareness.
• “A lot of people want a little bit of sarcasm. They can't handle full-throated honesty or passion.” — Matt (78:11)
• Exploration of “main character syndrome” and the pressure on every queer play to be universally relatable.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

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• On the confusion of the play’s characters and plot:

  • “Does anybody have, like, some red yarn?” — Robbie (26:01)
  • “We need to do what Charlie does in It’s Always Sunny, with his homeland map.” — Matt (26:04)

• On AIDS, trauma, and personal emotion:

  • “All of my gay movies, until trick, were just AIDS. It was AIDS all the time... as if we fixed it, which we haven’t.” — Robbie (44:05)
  • “It was such a gut punch to me [the end of Part One].” — Robbie (32:14)

• On gay representation and artistic boundaries:

  • “Now every queer movie... has to be everyone’s story. And if it’s not your story... the movie is bad.” — Matt (16:03)

• On privilege of writing outside your own identity:

  • "Why should I only write about being Latin? ... Isn't that achievement, like, why must that be erased because I wrote white characters?” — Matt paraphrasing Lopez (50:56)

• On theater’s embrace of trauma as prestige:

  • “I mentioned this already, but I don't know a single Broadway show that ever advertised with ‘We are important, see us because we’re important’ and have it work out.” — Matt (100:26)

• On The Inheritance’s divisiveness among gay audiences:

  • "The backlash... came solely from the gay community... a case of watching it and going, I hate this. Burn it with fire because it's too close to home.” — Matt (77:34)

• On the enduring power of kindness:

  • “I value kindness and gentleness and a loving character more than a Toby Darling... but I don't think that makes you extraordinary. I think that makes you a good human.” — Robbie (137:49)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

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• [16:27–34:05] Plot overview and core characters
• [30:59–32:17] End of Part One’s emotional climax and its personal impact
• [50:56] Discussion of Lopez’s response to identity-based criticism
• [67:26–73:53] Sex as trauma in the play: thematic analysis
• [93:10–104:31] The Broadway production: design, staging, and reception
• [104:31–116:09] The Tony Awards, legacy, and revival prospects

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Final Thoughts

• The Inheritance is praised for its ambition, heartfelt moments, and moments of genuine power, but critiqued for its “overwritten” nature, narrow focus, and complicated relationship to sex and representation.
• Neither Matt nor Robbie ultimately finds the play “problematic” in the cultural sense, despite acknowledging its flaws. Instead, they see it as a complex, ambitious work that reflects both progress and persistent challenges in queer storytelling on Broadway.
• The episode ends with the hosts humorously reflecting on their own tangents, a nod to the sometimes sprawling nature of theatre discourse—and of The Inheritance itself.

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“If we showed that there was an audience for [queer stories], they would make more. And hopefully better.” — Robbie (15:48)

“There are no gay men my age. Not nearly enough.” — Henry Wilcox, in The Inheritance (88:12)

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For Next Week

Stay tuned for possible Tony talk or the next “problematic” Broadway epic. Until then, keep engaging—and maybe bring a red.

Transcript

[A]

Sa foreign.

[B]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the deal. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Problematic Question Mark. And it is covering shows that you're mad at and their possible redemption. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a friend of the pod fag of the pod father, the pod daddy, uncle of the pod zaddy zaddy. Please welcome back Robbie Rizzel.

[A]

Hi, friends.

[B]

Hi, friends. This has been a journey, y', all, just so you know. Let me set the scene for you, please. It was last week. It sure was, Robbie. First of all, Robbie made his way to reread and re listen to this journey of a play and then watch a movie version of the novel of which the play is inspired by, and then trucked his way over to my home. We get everything set up, and the moment we hit record, our recorder just plops. Dead. Fully dead.

[A]

Just died.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've killed things before.

[B]

Well, usually careers. Careers, musical numbers, musical optimism.

[A]

Catch me at 54 below if you can.

[B]

But we decided, okay, we'll reconvene. And Robbie generously lent his office space and these beautiful mics. So I think it'll be a good. Be a fun one. But, you know, just like every gay man's journey, there were some bumps, but we persevered.

[A]

You know, sometimes you just have to.

[B]

Take a deep breath and let it all happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There you go. Wow, Robbie. What motherfucking fucker are we talking about today?

[A]

We are talking about the inheritance, a gay fantasia on Howards End themes.

[B]

On Howards End themes written by Matthew Lopez. How did the Inheritance come into your chat?

[A]

Oh, thanks for asking. What a great question. I saw it on Broadway because I was. I don't know, because I was known and we used to share the publicist of the inheritance. I was invited to it. I miss those days. And so I saw it. I sobbed through it. I had my thoughts happen in real time. That's. That's. You know, I only saw it once.

[B]

Same. I mean, it's a show that it's really hard to be like, I'll go multiple times because it is like angels in America. It is in two parts. It is collectively about seven hours.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. Yeah, it was just. It was. It's. It was a long sit. So it's not one that you just.

[A]

Like, keep coming back to and not necessarily like a. An Uplifting piece where you're like, I would like to spend so much time with these people. Gears, in fact. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like some people go back to Titanic, the film over and over again, or Gone with the Wind over and over and over again. And while I would really enjoy like a six part miniseries of this at some point, and we'll talk about this later, but like, I don't necessarily think I would like to sit in a theater over and over again to experience it. No.

[B]

So Inheritance entered my chat. Thanks for asking, Robbie. Because I had heard about it, you know. It was commissioned by Hartford Stage for Matthew Lopez, who I. This is the uncultured fuck in me. I didn't. I knew a couple of his works, but did not associate his name with those works. I knew about George McBride. I didn't know that was him. Sure. So I was like, oh, who's this, like young Whipple snapper who's got a play in Lond that's sweeping the Oliviers? Every award, all the awards. It was such a huge hit there because it was at the Young Vic first and then they moved it to West End. To the West End?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To the Noel Coward Theater, I think.

[A]

Which is the first theater I ever was in. In the West End.

[B]

Oh, no way. What did you see?

[A]

Half a sixpence.

[B]

Half of sixpence.

[A]

Oh, actually, no, that's a lie. Mrs. Henderson Presents is the first thing I saw. And it was there, but also with Tracy Bed.

[B]

Good for you. I'm also. I may be lying. It might not have been the Coward. It was. It was the Coward. Okay, great.

[A]

And in 2018.

[B]

In 2018, and the few things that we all knew about it on this side of the pond, those of us who had not seen it, was that it was a two part epic. That Vanessa Redgrave was in one of the parts.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

A lot of pretty young men. And that the West End critics basically all were creaming their pants for it, saying, like, this is the. This is, you know, the Legacy of Angels in America and Torch Song trilogy of these epic queer plays. Like, this is the next great one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it came here with all this fanfare and yet it didn't get the same reception. It got mostly positive reviews from critics here, but it was all sort of, you know, just short of raves. It was like, this is nice.

[A]

But yeah, I think there was definitely like a. Prove it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like a. Like a bias of, oh, you won all this. Prove it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a lot of, I think imports that do exceptionally well over there come here and don't live up to the hype, Especially in today's world, where, like, chat boards and everything and social media is blowing up shows, and then it gets here and you're like, well, yeah, it's good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But is it the best thing I've ever seen?

[B]

Yeah. And that's the thing is I think hype is really a dangerous knife's edge.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because you need it to get momentum going. But if it goes too big, nothing can live up to it.

[A]

Right. And what's the last thing you saw where the. Where it lived up to the hype of it, theater wise?

[B]

Oh, Lord. I think the last time I saw a show and what I would. Okay, so this doesn't count because this wasn't hype, because it hadn't opened yet, but it lived up to my expectations, which were already very high. And that was when I saw Fun Home at the Public, because, as we all know, I'm a tesori whore. I'm a Tahori, and I hate you so much.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you. And I was very excited to see this new work. I was somewhat. Somewhat familiar with the graphic novel, the cast, Mean Kunzy. So I was just like, okay, this better be awesome. And it was, but it hadn't opened yet, so that wasn't hype. I don't know. I don't know. The last thing I saw where, like, everyone creamed themselves and I went, oh, yeah, like this. Totally.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, what about you? Definitely. I want to say Hamilton, because that's the easy answer, because I think that Satisfied is such a perfect moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of theater, period. But honestly, probably Hairspray.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Hairspray came in on a wave of, like, great expectation and delivered in every sense of the word. It's a perfect musical comedy as far as I'm concerned.

[B]

Yeah. Hairspray is interesting because. And I hope to cover it on the podcast one day, but it. That was a case where, yeah, it went out of town. It had been in development for a while, and the buzz about it was always good, but not a lot of people had seen it. I think there was, like, one or two demos that had sort of made the waves.

[A]

They were handing them out at Pride.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like on CDs.

[B]

And it was. I think it was. It was Good Morning, Baltimore, you Can't Stop the Beat. And there was like, a third one.

[A]

Yeah. And it was like, Annie Golden.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I just remember. I remember the demos, and then they go to Seattle. And the reviews from Seattle were so extraordinary. And so that, like, really kind of picked up the momentum. And then it was the first. It was the dress rehearsal. And then the first two previews were just such rock concerts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The likes of which we hadn't seen in a long time. But honestly, even more so than the producers. And people just lost their shit. I'm trying to think Hamilton was interesting because I saw that again at the Public before it opened.

[A]

You're not better than me.

[B]

I'm not. I'm not better than anybody. But I remember seeing it, thinking it was really good. But, like, you know, it needs to be on a bigger stage. There was some trimming that needed to be done. Satisfied did totally blow my mind because I had done a tour with an actress who was auditioning for a swing in Hamilton, and she had to learn Satisfied. And I hadn't seen the show yet, so I just knew that song. And so I'm watching Helpless, going, wait a second. Like, let's go. Like, Angelica's gotta sing this song about everything that's just happened. Like, when's that gonna happen? And so when they did the rewind.

[A]

I was like, oh, fuck.

[B]

And then the reviews came out and all the hype and all that shit. And I was like, yeah, it's really good, but I don't know if it's this. And then when it moved to Broadway, I went to the last preview and I was like, oh, yeah. Like, it has sitting. It has sat comfortably in the Richard Rogers. Everything clicked into place. This is quite great.

[A]

It also was a show like, I worked at Playbill at that time.

[B]

Yeah. And you're not better than me.

[A]

That's true. Every three seconds, it was a story about Hamilton in some way. And so I got Hamilton fatigue very quickly.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I do not have hairspray fatigue.

[B]

Yeah. Well, Hamilton, I think, because we are Hamilton, came out, like, during the era of clickbait and just, you know, any. Any clicks are good clicks.

[A]

Buzzfeed.

[B]

Exactly. And Hairspray was right before that. Hairspray. The Internet existed with Hairspray. Obviously, it was 2002, but we did not have. I feel like we didn't have clickbait in that year.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I feel like that started around, like, 06 with, like, Perez Hilton and all that shit, and then Buzzfeed after that. But, yeah, I got. I got Hamilton fatigue, like, a year in as well. I think we all kind of did. And now it's sort of swung back and forth. But in terms of the inheritance Yes. I just remember, you know, I got tickets to see it with my grandma because, you know, we're theatre folk. And this was the big London import, and already in previews, the message boards were kind of beginning the talk of why this is on this series, quote, unquote, problematic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which anyone who's been listening to the series up till now knows we are using it kind of, you know, ironically. It's. Or sarcastically. This is it. It's.

[A]

Well, you're asking the question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it the show actually problematic or not?

[B]

Yeah. Well. And because I personally find people use the word, I don't want to say stupidly, but stupidly correct to rather than sit in the discomfort and go, oh, maybe this show wants me to feel all these kinds of ways. They go, well, no, it's problematic because it's covering X, Y and Z. I'm like, just because the show covers X, Y and Z doesn't mean it's saying, you know, this is the right way to live life. And if you're not doing that, usually musicals get that tagline more than plays. Right. Because now a lot of audiences, younger audiences especially, have been conditioned to think that any song written by the team is a statement by the team about life.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

It's the greatest show in Syndrome of Everything is a hanging their kitty poster with glitter. And it's like, okay, so any song you give a character is. Is what the creators actually think. Right.

[A]

And what's fucking frustrating about that for me is that it sands out all nuance in general. And as a complex, nuanced person myself, over the age of 40.

[B]

I was gonna say debatable. And then you put in your age one. What, we can't debate her.

[A]

No, sure can't. It's very annoying to me. You've talked about Jeremy Hansen.

[B]

Yes, we did a one part. We're gonna do a second part at some point.

[A]

Right. But, like, going into the Pandemic, that was a revered show, you know, about a very flawed human. But coming out of it. And the movie didn't help anything. But, like, coming out of it, it was, oh, why would anybody root for this person? He's terrible. And like, yeah, flawed people, flawed characters need to exist. We cannot just, oh, Sweeney Todd garbage. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. So there are quite a few podcasts I listen to, mostly movie ones, and one that I listen to that I have a very frustrating time with is called the Big Picture. And both hosts have children. Gross. And I think they're like, kids are between, like, one and a Half and four, something like that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you know, they're slowly introducing their kids to all the movies that they love and they're doing the Disney stuff and they're both proudly saying, it's a man and woman. Not married, just friends.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And they're both being like, I have yet to introduce my kids to, to the princesses because I don't want them to, you know, rely on that aesthetic. I don't want them to, you know, get the wrong lessons from them. And I'm like, first of all, they're cartoons. And second of all, like, some of those princess movies deal with flawed characters. And that is something to discuss. You. If you only show your kids characters that they're supposed to aspire to be, they're going to be hard on themselves because no one can be Belle in Beauty and the Beast. She is an impenetrable character. She pretty much has no flaws other than like doing one thing that she's told not to do, other than that she's, she's perfect. And I'm like, that's lovely, but I can't relate to her.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you only show perfection, if you don't show flaws in perfection, you create a anxiety riddled world where, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. Yeah, I'm fucking up.

[B]

And then anyone. And then if you do fuck up, that makes you cancelable, that makes you problematic. Yeah. And we all fucking trip and fall. And you again, as I said on an earlier episode, you hope not to hurt anyone by design, but you're gonna do it anyway. What you got to do is listen and learn from that.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So it's the inheritance. A lot of the talk came around the characters status and wealth, that this is a play about a lot of rich white people. And, you know, how is that good for the community? How is that representative for the community? First of all, I know I mentioned this on the. I think it was on Love, Valor, compassion. Yeah, Love, Valor, compassion. In many seasons ago. There was a time, Robbie, when the queer community was just so happy to have any fucking story about us in the mainstream that we rallied behind it. We all came, we showed up with, you know, with colors on.

[A]

And you guys, I sat through so many terrible gay movies in the late 90s and early 2000s. You kiss me, Guido.

[B]

Sure. Like, what's the one that Sean Hayes was in? So and so's Hollywood Kiss.

[A]

Billy's Hollywood screen Kiss. Yeah, yeah. Great soundtrack. That film is a great soundtrack.

[B]

A lot of them are really great soundtracks.

[A]

But like not a great movie, but we showed up with our dollars.

[B]

Yeah. Because if we showed that there was an audience for it, they would make more.

[A]

And hopefully better.

[B]

And hopefully better. And some of them were in trick. Yeah, Trick Birdcage.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

In and out is so much fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, very simplistic, but a lot of fun.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Now it's sort of every queer movie that comes out has to be everyone's story. And if it's not your story, not only can you not relate to it, but the movie is. Is bad. And.

[A]

Or the show.

[B]

Or the show.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so it happens with movies more just because those are much more public, but theater too. And so with the inheritance, do you.

[A]

Want to tell everybody? What the inheritance.

[B]

Oh, yeah, we'll get. Yeah, well, yeah, actually, yeah, let's do that. So, Robbie, for the uncultured fucks, what is the inheritance aboot?

[A]

Oh, I knew you were gonna do this to me. So the inheritance is, would you say loosely based on or just full out? Based on, I guess full out based on.

[B]

I. I would say inspiredly based on.

[A]

On Forester's Howard's End.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it is about a group of gay men, but specifically, I'm gonna get all their names right. Listen, this thing has more names in it than I did in my 20s, so. Thank you. I. So I just want to make sure I get everyone's right. So there's. Who is a playwright, Toby Darling.

[B]

Yes. He's a writer who is.

[A]

Yeah, a novelist turned playwright.

[B]

Yes, Toby Darling.

[A]

Oh, you're holding both the Inheritance and Howards End.

[B]

I came prepared.

[A]

I should take a photo of that for your Instagram at some point.

[B]

Yeah, at that point.

[A]

Okay. So anyway, so it's about Toby Darling and Eric, who is at the beginning of the play is Toby's sort of paramore.

[B]

Yeah, they are. They are couples, Right.

[A]

They get engaged.

[B]

Yeah, they get engaged like in scene two or three, Right.

[A]

Yes. And then the dissolution of that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Meanwhile, Eric meets an older gentleman.

[B]

Yes. It's. So this is where it's kind of strange. They are friendly with an older couple that were, like, renting in their building for a while because I guess they were doing.

[A]

Not so much the. The couple, just him.

[B]

Yes. Well, this. Guys, Sorry about this. It's gonna get very convoluted because the play and the book fall off of the same opening. Because in the. In the Inheritance, not only is it inspired and based ish off of Howards End, but E.M. forster is a character. Yes, he is. He is the narrator for Part one and then dissolves in part two, which.

[A]

We'Re gonna talk about.

[B]

Yes. Because the play the Inheritance uses a lot of narration from everyone. It's very overly theatrical. That's on purpose.

[A]

Yeah. It's a lot of. Like a tapestry of the cast talking at you.

[B]

Yes, at you, at each other.

[A]

About each other, and even giving stage directions.

[B]

Yeah, It's. It's very similar to love, valor, compassion, that way. But I think part of that is because Matthew Lopez has said, you know, Forrester was a very big influence on his life. He's always loved the novel. And part of that is the way that Forster writes narration in his. In his books. I've only read Howards End and Morris, but, you know, he's, you know, he's a very elegant writer. And so that is a way to include that kind of text in the play. But so they hinge off the same opener, which is. One might as well start with Helen's letters to her sister.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What's her face. And it's the same thing. Yeah, it's the same thing in the Inheritance. Whereas one might as well start with Toby's voicemails to his boyfriend Eric. And so Toby is at a party that. The older couple. Their names are.

[A]

Walter.

[B]

Yes, it's Walter and Henry. Henry Wilcox. Directly ripped from Howards End. Because Toby, darling Toby is ripped from a name in Howards End, but he's kind of a composite of three characters.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But so Toby is at a party that Henry and Walter are throwing in the Hamptons. And so that implies that he is. That they have become friendly. Ish. With the couple. But Walter is the main point in.

[A]

And solely for Eric. Yes, not so much. And in fact, that's why I said I don't think it's with the couple. I think it's more with Walter.

[B]

Because.

[A]

When complications ensue.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Walter dies.

[B]

Yes. Eric and Walter get close very quickly.

[A]

Very quickly.

[B]

And Walter dies soon after that.

[A]

And Walter has told him about a house that he owns out in the country.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And how at the height of the AIDS epidemic, he would bring his friends out there to.

[B]

To die.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He brought his friends who were afflicted and brought them out there to die and wanted to show Eric the house. And when Walter did die, his partner Eric and Eric, his partner Henry. And Henry's two sons from a previous marriage. Get a letter from Walter that he's.

[A]

Left the house to Eric.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right again. So many names.

[B]

Yes. So many names.

[A]

Meanwhile, number of producers over any Broadway musical.

[B]

Truly. Meanwhile, On Eric's side. Eric has been living in this rent controlled apartment on the Upper west side with Toby for the last six years. That has been in his family for generations.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he's been told that they're getting evicted.

[A]

Yes. Because it's his grandmother's. His grandmother does not reside there because she is in a Narn.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. It's. It's very Monica in friends of. You know, just saying. Yes, this person has lived here this entire time. What are you talking about? And so Eric and Toby get engaged. When Eric finds out that the. That they're gonna be evicted, Toby decides he's gonna turn his. His book.

[A]

That was like, novel.

[B]

Yeah, it's like decently Romana Cloth. Exact successful novel that. Yes. Romana Cloth, which was loosely based off his life, but more like a fantasy of what he wanted.

[A]

Yeah. Apparently a lie. We learned that later.

[B]

We learned it's a lie. And Toby's turning that into a play. They meet a young man named Andrew, who is. No, Adam. They meet a young man. They meet a young man named Adam at the ballet, who turns out is a very wealthy.

[A]

Well, they meet him before that.

[B]

Yes, they meet. They meet him at the Strand.

[A]

Well, he brings a bag because he and Toby have switched bags. Accidentally. Accidentally at the Strand.

[B]

Yes. And he brings it back to Toby, which is inspired by a swapping of umbrellas in Howards End.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And eventually Adam sort of ingrates himself into Eric and Toby's life. And Toby definitely is having a fixation on Adam because Adam is supposedly very hot.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And, yes, hot and young. And we find out that Adam's also incredibly rich. And Adam ends up playing the lead in Toby's play out in Chicago, where it's very, very successful for Adam. Specifically for Adam. Yes. Toby's writing is sort of brought under scrutiny. Right. And Toby is very fixated now on not only proving that he's successful, proving that he's a genius. So, you know, this becomes very big status, becomes very big for Toby throughout the play.

[A]

And during that time, Adam starts sleeping with the director of the play.

[B]

Yes. Which throws Toby into a tailspin because Toby and Eric have dissolved their relationship. And Toby goes running to Adam thinking that they can now be together. Adam throws Toby out because Adam is not as innocent as, you know, he might seem.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so Toby starts going off on his own. Rents a new apartment.

[A]

And rents a man.

[B]

Yeah, and rents a man who he only rents because he looks like Adam.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And while all this is happening, they're also all conversing with E.M. forster in narration and each other. And they have all these friends and there's all everyone has like these in and outs. Meanwhile, since Walter has passed, Henry reconnects with Eric. Henry, Walter's partner, reconnects with Eric and they start to have a bit of a romance and end up getting engaged. And we learn in part two at the wedding, Henry is a Republican. Henry has again has two sons from her previous marriage when he was, you know, in the closet before he met Walter. And basically has told Eric that he just wants him to be a, you know, high society housewife. He doesn't want him to be, you know, he doesn't want really to do anything else. And Eric has been told over and over again how good he is, what a good person he is. He's very sweet and kind and good natured. And also while this is happening, Eric has no idea that Walter ever left him the house. So anytime Eric brings up the house, it's truly just because he heard great things about it from Walter and he wants to see it. And it, anytime he brings it up, Henry's always like, wait, wait, why?

[A]

And the brothers. And the brothers, right, they shut it down.

[B]

They shut it down. They burn Walter's note and Toby has gone through his own spiral with the rent boy, Adam.

[A]

A drug fueled spiral.

[B]

Yes. And what's interesting is that the play, once it comes to New York and Toby's done some work on it, the play becomes a huge hit and Toby actually gets good reviews. But he's too much in a drug sex spiral to really notice or appreciate any of it.

[A]

Doesn't even attend opening night.

[B]

No, I think he walks out in the first five minutes he does. And, and all, all this just happens and then, and meanwhile at Eric's wedding, Toby and Adam crash it. And we find out that Henry, Eric's soon to be husband, Walter's ex partner, had been renting. Adam. Had been renting. Not Adam. What kind? What's his name?

[A]

Alex? No, Leo.

[B]

Leo. God, so many fucking names. Leo the rent boy.

[A]

Does anybody have like some red yarn?

[B]

You know we need to do that. What Charlie doesn't? It's always sunny with his homeland map. Like that's what we need to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Leo the rent boy who looks like Adam, who Toby only rented because he looked like Adam. And Leo eventually realizes that, that at some point Leo and Toby crash Eric and Henry Wilcox's wedding. And we learned that Henry had been renting Leo for a good while. Leo, by the way, is 19, Henry is mid to late 50s. Every other character is in their early to mid 30s. Leo is the absolute youngest. He is the only one who is truly destitute. And there's a moment in the play where they acknowledge this for like, everyone you see right now is either, you know, wealthy or relatively comfortable. Like no one is worrying where they're gonna sleep tonight. Leo is the only one who is that. And eventually Eric and Leo connect because Toby goes off on his own way, leaving Leo alone. Eric takes care of Leo against Henry's wishes, ends up bringing him to the house where he does get better. Toby shows up to the house. Eric's hoping to make him better, but Toby is too far gone. He tries to write a novel to separate himself from the Romana clef, but.

[A]

It'S so messy because he's written it in another drug fueled sort of in.

[B]

Like a one month long cocaine fueled spiral. And his agent says, this is a mess. Toby sends the novel out to everyone he's ever met. They're all like, what's, what's going on with you? Are you okay? And Toby ends up taking his own life. And Eric and Leo end up being friends. And all of their friends have this big party many years later.

[A]

But we haven't even talked about the caretaker.

[B]

Oh, yes, the caretaker. The Vanessa Redgrave slash Lois Smith role.

[A]

Yes, yes. So the. At one point after the wedding, Eric takes off for the house.

[B]

When Eric brings Leo to the house. Right.

[A]

To take care of this poor child who never wanted to do drugs. He did not do drugs, as far as we know previous to Toby.

[B]

And when he was an escort, he also never did unprotected sex.

[A]

Yep. Or kissing.

[B]

Or kissing.

[A]

It was kind of. Pretty Woman.

[B]

Very pretty woman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We learned that he got kicked out of his house because his mother had boyfriends who all recognized when he was little that he was probably queer and sexually abused him. And when he was a teenager, his mother walked in on that happening and because his mother was his mother threw him out. Not the boyfriend.

[A]

Right. Like we said, rip roaring comedy. Exactly. So he is taken to the house to hopefully get better.

[B]

Because in one of the. When, when Toby's play opens on Broadway and he and Leo leave because he can't handle it, they're out in the Hamptons, essentially. Toby rents a house, Fire island, and they do cocaine, they do all this other stuff. They start doing Molly and then they eventually get into crystal meth and they get into a very weird crowd in Fire island and get invited to a very, very dark and rather violent sex. Party where Leo is treated like meat. Continually raped, pretty much raped and over and over by different guys. Unprotected. And a little while later, Leo goes to the doctor and discovers that he is HIV positive. And with that. And incredibly malnourished because he's been abandoned by Toby. He has no money.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Eric takes him in and brings him to the house to heal, as Walter once did with all those other men. And that's where we meet the caretaker.

[A]

Yes. And so her name is Margaret. She has. And when they arrive and he says, oh, I'm Eric, and she's like, oh, but I've been waiting for you. Which is kind of like, I've been waiting for you.

[B]

Yeah, it's. Sometimes that's a statement that either is very welcoming and warm or very scary.

[A]

It depends on who's delivering it. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But she. She explains how she ended up there because her son was one of the first to die there under Walter's care.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she has been there ever since to shepherd and also take care of the house. But we don't meet her when we see the house in the first. I keep calling act, but, like the first play, at the very end of the first play, which is, for me, like, the emotional high point of the show because I had a nervous breakdown in the theater.

[B]

You and many others. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Thanks, Bulk and co. Because suddenly all these men in the. In the Robbie production, I'm assuming, London production, all these men started appearing through the audience, walking up onto the stage and introducing themselves to Eric. Hi, I'm so and so. I'm so and so. And shaking his hand, etc. And then one of them says their name, and it's a name that we've heard before. It's the first person who died there. And all the pieces click into place of, oh, these. These are all the boys who came here to die.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna try not to cry if you try.

[B]

If you cry, you cry.

[A]

I know. I'm.

[B]

It was. It was a very beautiful moment. And.

[A]

And I am 47, so I very much lived through the AIDS epidemic as it was raging. And when I came out. I came out when I was 16, and the. The. My mom's only concern was that I wouldn't get aids, so. Jesus Christ. I really am crying, guys. I. I don't have emotions. I do jokes. You're.

[B]

You' a vulnerable person sometimes.

[A]

Anyway, that. It was such a gut punch to me. And so as. As we were studying up for this pod audible has a beautiful audio version of the play from when they did it in la. And that moment happened and I was just, you know, walking down the street listening to it in my earbuds and I had another full weeping meltdown in the street and that I had to send you a text and say thank you so much for this mid morning weep fest. Anyway, so she. She explains that she is there to take care of it and they, they basically nurse Leo back to health.

[B]

Yeah. And. And about three years later, I think is the very end of the play.

[A]

Yeah. When the 40th birthday.

[B]

Yes. And they all have this gathering for Eric's 40th and Leo's there and he's happy and healthy and I think partner at that point and a bunch of their friends. And Henry Wilcox is there as well, even though he and Eric have separated.

[A]

Have they divorced?

[B]

It could be an annulment. Honestly, they weren't married for very long.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't think they actually ever say what exactly happened.

[A]

And he just said, take the house. So the house fell into its rightful owner through machinations of the universe.

[B]

Which is exactly what happens in Howards End. The difference between Howards End and the Inheritance is that the protagonists of Howards End are women. Emma Thompson, Helena Bonham Carter. In the movie they are sisters. And in the Inheritance, Matthew Lopez moved it to queer men. We would see something similar with Joel Kim Booster with Pride and Prejudice and Fire Island.

[A]

Sure. And I do want to point out that in Howards End it is all people of affluence and status, which is.

[B]

And the reason for that is Forster's novel is it's not satire so much as that. It's almost an indictment of wealth and of social status and of the ridiculous pomp and circumstance that comes with society of that time. You know, one of the things about. I mean, we said it earlier with Titanic, but one of the reasons why Titanic sinking was such a huge deal was that when it went down, so did a certain way of society.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A way. A certain high class way of living. And Howards End is right before this. It's like a handful of years before this. And if you watch the movie, you'll see like so many things of what is right and what is moral are not done because of what society expects. And so when Emma. So in the movie version, slash novel.

[A]

So which is a merchant is the height of Merchant Ivory.

[B]

Height of Merchant Ivory. And they even say this in the Inheritance. The one thing about the movie version, first of all, it's gorgeous to look at. It's very well.

[A]

Accurate score.

[B]

Well. So I watch it with Robbie and his husband. And we're about to sit down and watch it, and I said, the one thing I remember about this movie, because it had been a few years, I said, I remember that this score is thick. And Robbie goes, what the fuck does that mean? And the movie begins with the score. And Robbie goes, oh, that's a thick score.

[A]

And I'm somebody who produces music for a living. And so. And have never thought of it like that. But now I'm not going back.

[B]

No, I can't go back.

[A]

That is a girthy score.

[B]

It is a girthy, veiny score. The one thing it reminded me of, and we talked about this as well when we were watching it, it reminded me of the score for Bram Stoker's Dracula. And I think they actually were the same year. So it's not like one inspired the other, but it's like. It's very heavy, sometimes weirdly ethereal in moments where you wouldn't expect it. So, like when Vanessa Redgrave, who plays the Walter of Howards End, the one who dies and leaves Emma Thompson the house. Emma Thompson is the Eric of the. Of the. Of Howard's End.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're at Harrods for Christmas time and there's like this weirdly ethereal music with chimes and like a xylophone playing, and it puts you almost on edge. And it's not a scene that should do that.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But it's just sort of like the director and composer were like, fuck it, who cares? And I like it. I mean, it keeps you invested.

[A]

Yeah. But it's a beautiful movie.

[B]

It is very beautiful.

[A]

Recommended.

[B]

Yeah. But, you know, intentionally a little stuffy, because it is about stuffy people. Yeah. And that's something that the inheritance can't really walk away from because a lot of Howard said is truly just about real estate. It was around the time women in the uk maybe a few years after they got the right to own real estate. Yeah. So with this transfer between women of. Of that. Of. Of homes, of estates, there is a lot to discuss there as well as, you know, the upper class thinking what's rightfully there's. Because in Howards End, you know, the house doesn't even belong to Vanessa Redgrave's family. It belongs to her because it comes from her side of the family and her husband and their children and their. And their children's wives are like, why would she leave it to this random person? This house belongs to us.

[A]

It's very downton Abbey, in a way.

[B]

Yeah. It's like it's. I know people don't. Not a lot of people love it when I say it, but they appreciate it when I use it correctly. It's a cunty Downton Abbey, Howard's End. Because people are vicious in it.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Like that daughter in law that we love with a weird voice who's like. I'd scratch her eyes out.

[A]

I'd scratch your eyes out.

[B]

Yes. With her baby and the inheritance, there aren't a lot of straight people. It's mostly Henry's sons who are very bro. Yeah. And then Lois Smith.

[A]

Lois. Yeah. Or Vanessa Redgrave.

[B]

Or Vanessa Redgrave. Or any dame of a certain age.

[A]

Sure. I'd like to see all of them.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that the stuff in the inheritance that works the least for me is the stuff that's directly ripped from Howards End. And I think it's just because with the hundred year time lapse, certain things just fit more comfortably in Howards End than they do in the inheritance.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's these parts where I think Lopez has something to say about the queer community, about queer legacy. Because. Okay, first of all, why is it called the inheritance and not, you know, Eric's End? Well, it's called Howard's End because that's the name of the estate.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In the novel. So the inheritance isn't called Walter's house.

[A]

Would love to see Eric's End though. That'd be great for me.

[B]

Eric is the bottom. Eric is the bottom. We know this because there is a sex scene.

[A]

Oh yeah. I do want to talk about the way sex is. I almost had performed but used in here.

[B]

And especially the original. I want to talk about the original production. The way that Stephen Daldry directed it and Bob Crowley designed it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But before we get into any of that and why it is called the inheritance. Robbie, we must take a shirt a break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feather. And we back.

[A]

Well, that was invigorating.

[B]

Yeah. So lovely nap. Why is it called the inheritance?

[A]

I mean, honestly. Because he's inheriting the house.

[B]

But also. That's one but.

[A]

And also I think it's. It's the passing down of culture. Passing down of literally anything. Right. I. I have friends who say, you know, we have. We have to teach these things or we lose these things. And Like, I had a. Growing up, I had an older gay man who taught me so much about musical theater and Barbra Streisand and, like, then introduced me to John Waters films and things like that. The passing down of legacy. It's about legacy, really, in a way. But, like, on its face, it's called the inheritance, because he has inherited a house and doesn't know it.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I. I do think it's a combo of the two, for sure, because he spends a lot of time, Lopez, talking about what we, as gay men, inherit from each other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We inherit history, and we inherit culture, and we inherit. You know, it's almost as if. Did you read the Velvet Rage?

[A]

Yeah, it infuriated me.

[B]

It infuriated a lot of people. But there's a lot in there, I think, that is interesting.

[A]

Rob and I. Rob Schneider and I used to host a podcast together called A Gay Card Revoked, and one episode was about the Velvet Rage because he felt differently than I did about it. That book, to me, is garbage, nonsense. But I know a lot of younger people really cling to it like it's the Third Testament.

[B]

I think it's a little. I think it's incredibly simplistic, and that is why I will never treat it as such. But in its simplicity, there are things that I find interesting and somewhat true, if not necessarily all of it. The point of Eldrage is basically like, our inner shame and our past trauma has been what has fueled every gay man to be, you know, have a hot body or be, you know, culturally intelligent or you're just like.

[A]

It also says we're all looking for our father.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot of that.

[A]

And I'm like, no, I'm not. Actually.

[B]

I don't think we're all looking for our father, but I do think there is a little bit of, you know, because for so long, and. And honestly, still, in some cases outsiders, we have to sort of prove that we are not only just as good, but exceptional than the heteronormative standard. And that is why, you know, we know about film and literature and back in the day, opera, not so much anymore. Yeah, I writ Lars. Someone sent me a video of when Maria Callas was doing something, and, like, all the gays were online to buy tickets, and there was this person was doing an interview with them on the line, being like, why do you see calls? And the way they spoke about her was so articulate. I was like, I missed the days not to be like, we used to be a country, but we used to be a. We used to be a demographic that was highly articulate and very cultured and with a high taste level.

[A]

Well, now we have TikTok.

[B]

Yes. And. And when we talk about our divas, like, if all you have to do is not to throw them under the bus, but, like, you listen to Los Culturistas, the way they talk about Gaga or Ariana Grande, and you're like, slay Mother, Queen, Boots down, Mama. And I'm like, can we use more words and really sort of speak our mind in a way that we're reverting back to cavemen. Oh, great.

[A]

We're gonna be grunts in three years.

[B]

Phenomenal. Hotter sex then.

[A]

I guess Jeanine Tesori's next score is just gonna be.

[B]

Adam Gettles, 2001 A Space Odyssey. But it's just the first 20 minutes.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Yep. For four hours.

[A]

No, thanks.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, the way that they talk about theater, because one of the things that. When that bonds Eric, Toby, and Adam at first is because Adam is younger, they teach Adam a lot of what they know, the movies that they love and the novels. And, you know, when Toby eventually takes on Leo as a boyfriend of sorts, he's buying him all these novels to read, which Leo, you know, hungrily absorbs. And they talk about this, I think I feel like Walter might talk about as well. And Forrester definitely mentions it when he's narrating. Like, we have to teach each other all the things that we've lived, all the things that we've loved, so it doesn't go away in the same way of, like, history that you forget is bound to repeat itself, but also, like, the culture you forget, you know, stops being important after a while and.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And we become much better audiences the more we know and the more we take in. So I've. Yeah, that's where I'm at with the inheritance. The lame.

[A]

It's also interesting to me because, again, growing. I'm so sorry that I'm referencing how much I grew up.

[B]

Did you actually grow up, though, Robbie, or did you just get older?

[A]

Got older, but, like, coming of age. Like, I said this to my husband, Lynn, once. All of my gay movies, until trick were just AIDS. It was AIDS all the time. It was always AIDS. And now 2024, it's something that's rarely discussed anymore, as if we fixed it, which we haven't. But because it's. It's treatable and controllable in a way, it sort of disappeared, I guess, like the way I want to phrase this elegantly, but, like, in the way polio has. You know what I mean? We don't openly talk about it all the time, the way we talk about cancer or something like that. So when this play happened, it's almost like a reminder of, like, hey, this is something that happened and needs to be talked about and not forgotten because it was. It was a holocaust of gay men because the government did nothing. Not. I don't. I don't know what the government could have done other than help spread the word. You know, it's just like Covid. Like you can't stop a rampant disease.

[B]

Yeah. The more you know about it, the more you want to inform the public. Correct. The government intentionally let bad information run rampant.

[A]

Yeah. Like crazy. And you get it from a toilet seat. I thought about that a lot during COVID where, like, you would be scared to touch the. The handles on the subway or the poles, whatever, things like that, because you didn't know if you would get it disinfecting your.

[B]

Mailing your groceries.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I know People who let their mail sit for days before they would bring it in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And education is key. And so, like, a part of this play is an education to a generation that doesn't. Has no attachment.

[B]

Yeah. But while also showing people in Henry and Walter as a couple the way that they discuss their past and how they dealt with the virus.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's because, you know, Eric asks Walter about the house, and Walter ends up going on a very long, if well written, story about how he and Henry met. Henry was a midwestern man in the early 80s who got married very young, had two kids, deeply closeted Republican who went on to become a billionaire, by the way. That's another thing to remember is that Henry Wilcox is incredibly wealthy. He is the 1% and knows every powerful person in the world because he is one of them. And Henry was, you know, already an up and comer in the financial world. He meets Walter at a roof party, and I want to say the early 80s, it's like 81, 82. And they fall deeply, passionately in love with each other pretty much on site. And.

[A]

Which is wild to me when you think. When you see Henry as presented.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you see Walter as presented.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't see those two together.

[B]

Yeah. You don't understand why they're together.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And you don't see passion with that. So to. And that's something to always remember when.

[A]

I guess maybe you see comfort.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I think that there's. They talk about this. Walter talks about this when he talks about their relationship of. You know, what changed is they. They found each other pretty much right before AIDS started to spread in America.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Henry had left his wife to be with Walter. She died pretty soon after that. So Walter ended up kind of raising the kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And.

[A]

At Peter Luger.

[B]

At Peter Luger. And just as all this was happening, aid started to spread, and Henry and Walter basically said, okay, so it's. We are monogamous. It's just going to be us. And, you know, when it became even more widespread, they then bought that house out in the country and then just drove the fuck out of there.

[A]

To. To not be around it.

[B]

To not be around it. And they were there for a year. A year. Yeah. And which is.

[A]

That's again, like the COVID shutdown.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you just stayed at home.

[B]

When you just stayed at home. And they. They're there for a year. Henry's away for business, for something.

[A]

Because he's a billionaire.

[B]

Because he's a billionaire, or at this point, he's on his way to becoming one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Walter comes back into the city, sees a friend of theirs who is two pounds.

[A]

Emaciated.

[B]

Emaciated. You know, skin. Skin and bones. Teeth.

[A]

Doesn't even recognize him.

[B]

Yeah. Doesn't even recognize him. Realizes that he is very much on death's door. Can't be in a hospital, doesn't have the money, whatever, and just brings him out to the house to let him die in peace. And he tells Henry that their friend is in one of the upstairs bedrooms.

[A]

You know, And Henry leaves.

[B]

And Henry leaves. He says, I won't be a part of that. And they eventually mend the relationship enough that they're still together. But there's always that rip there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The. The love. The love is still there. The passion is gone. And there's a bit of trust that's now gone as well. Sure. And as Walter continues to use the house for that purpose and Henry never really goes back to it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, eventually, at some point, Walter stops doing this. I would assume sometime in the late 90s. And they kind of go back to their lives. But because of all of that, this wonderful thing that Walter did, it kind of changed their relationship forever. Yeah. And that's what Walter tells Eric about, you know, that time and their relationship. And there's. So. Okay. In addition to the wealth of certain characters and the whiteness of many of the characters, something that Lopez is very aware of, he writes about it and there's sort of a reverse racism in the accusations against Lopez. When this was happening, I remember reading criticisms from people at the time being like, why would you write this? You know, you're. You're a Latinx writer. Why are you writing about white people? And when it won best play, they were like, why are we giving it to the inheritance when it's, you know, blah, blah. And Matthew Lopez was like, why should I only write about being Latin? Like, is that all that matters to you?

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And. And when he won best play for the inheritance, he was like, when was the. Is. Like, he was the first. I believe he was the first Latinx playwright to win the Tony in general, but definitely the first queer Latinx writer. And he was like, isn't that achievement, like, why. Why must that be erased? Because I wrote white characters. And it's. He's not wrong. Whether you like the play or not, he's not wrong about that. And it's. It is infuriating to me that. Because I feel like we're kind of starting to wake up from it. But there was a solid 4. 4 to 5 years from, like, 2018 to 2023, where we, as a community, thinking that we were being incredibly progressive, were like, we would love to have more bipoc voices, but they should probably write about being bipoc. Because if, like, just like, imagine if they were like, susan, Laurie Parks, write us a play. She's like, okay, I wrote about two white Karens. And they're like, why would you do that?

[A]

Yeah, how come.

[B]

How come. Write about being black and a woman. Please.

[A]

They wouldn't even say please. It would be a demand.

[B]

It would be a demand.

[A]

Not even a kind demand. You know what I mean?

[B]

Not. Not even kind.

[A]

No, just like a right about. Right about you.

[B]

Right about you. Just you.

[A]

And so because this play came under a lot of criticism for straight or straight presenting actors in these roles.

[B]

That as well. Yes, well.

[A]

And this is. But rolling right out of that, because I feel very strongly that actors are actors, and most actors get in the profession not to glorify themselves, but to become other people and have other experiences. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I have no problem with straight people playing gay or gay people playing straight. Like, I have no problem unless it's a race situation where race is part of the identity of the person. Go off, live your dreams. Right? Because I'm gonna play fucking Seymour Crowborn in Little Shop of Horrors when I get a six pack. One day. One day. But, like, I'm not. I'm.

[B]

I'm not straight, so Race is not fluid, sexuality is. And thus casting for sexuality should be just as fluid.

[A]

Yeah. And you also, like, can't put that on a form.

[B]

No. And also, you know, as they're. The only way to really have empathy is to kind of mentally put yourself in someone else's shoes. And actors are primed for that by, as you said, you know, being other people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you know, there, I've, I've said this before. There are certain queer roles where I'm not like, it must be a gay person, but I usually can tell when a straight person is playing it. Not as a criticism, just like Prior Walter and Angels in America.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I'm like, it's just every time I've seen a straight guy do it, I'm like doing a solid job. But I can tell you're straight. I just can tell you're not a native speaker. You're just somewhat fluent.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And the inheritance was a case where I thought it was very well cast all around.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

I had no idea some of those actors were quote unquote straight when the show opened. Could have fooled me.

[A]

Until you read a message board.

[B]

Until I read a message board and still didn't really fucking care. Know, I think that with Daldrie as at the helm and Lopez as the scribe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was. Those were the queer voices in the room and they were the most important ones.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. And if that's what they wanted to tell. It's a lot like, I don't want to equate race and sexuality, but in Gardens of Annuncia, noted non Argentinian, Mary Tessa played an Argentinian grandmother, but she was playing Graziella, Danielle's grandmother. And Grazzi directed the piece and cast her. And who am I to say Mary Tessa can't play that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So if they, the writer and the director who are queer, cast this group of people and a lot of the people who are in the. We haven't talked that there's like a massive ensemble of like ancillary friends who do things. Some have children.

[B]

Yeah. Two of them are adopting or they're doing a surrogate or something. And then another one just likes to fuck, you know, 25 year old twinks.

[A]

Sure. And who doesn't? So but if, if that's who they cast, that's who they cast because they were correct. And like, I'm sorry, Andrew Burnap was spectacular.

[B]

I am I. Okay. I think I cut this in the Slave Play episode when we were talking about the Tonys that year.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There were very few Tony wins during that gas leak season where I was just like, totally, like, no, I'm. No debate. This is the right winner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One was Mary Louise Parker for Sound Inside. I was like, I don't care who the fuck you think you are, that was the correct winner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The other was Andrew Burnett for the Inheritance. I was thrilled when he won because Kyle Suller was the one who played Eric and he won the Olivier out in London. Right. And Andrew wasn't even nominated. And then I know Kyle was nominated for the Drama Desk or Outer Critics Circle or something. And then. And then didn't get nominated for the Tony, but Andrew did, which everyone thought was like a huge surprise, but if you had seen the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Andrew. So Toby Darling, let's talk more about, like, the play itself.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Toby Darling is a combination of a character named Toby in Howards End.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

As well as Helen. Helen Bonham Carter's character and like, probably one other character as well. But, you know, Toby came from. What we learned in Part two is that Toby came from the South.

[A]

Yeah. Alabama.

[B]

No, sorry. Lives in Pennsylvania. Moved to Alabama because when Toby was 7 or 8, his father took his life. Yes. Which Toby either saw him do or like walked in after it had happened. And that already is traumatizing for a child.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then his mother ups and moves them from, you know, somewhat suburbia Pennsylvania to Alabama.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Where Toby is effeminate, Toby is sensitive and just like. Absolutely.

[A]

I can't imagine his playground.

[B]

And also because his mother, with his father gone, his mother is working and, you know, working low paying jobs, they become rather than, you know, somewhat middle class. They become very poor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so Toby. And sometimes, like, their water is shut off and Toby can't bathe that week. And so he gets picked on at school because he smells and all this other stuff. And he eventually pulls himself out of there to move to New York where he reinvents himself as an articulate, intelligent, fabulous sort of, you know, mystery boy.

[A]

Do you think his government last name is Darling?

[B]

No.

[A]

I don't either.

[B]

No. He absolutely gave himself that. I would assume something out of, you know, Peter Pan.

[A]

100% great.

[B]

Yeah. But reinvents himself as that.

[A]

And Toby Darling.

[B]

Yes, as Toby Darling. And then writes this quote, unquote, monoclef about his life that turns out to be false about, you know, it's sort of a Queer Capturing the Rye. They talk about it how, you know, the character in Toby's book is similar to Holden Caulfield and that, you know, he's a bit of a dick. But you keep wanting to read more about him. Yeah. And.

[A]

Which is honestly every review of me, so.

[B]

I've never wanted to read more about you.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

I. Somehow I became a lifer with you, babe. And I don't know how this happened for someone I simply cannot stand. I'm like, God, I guess I'm in.

[A]

It for the long. Because I'm one of your elders and you. I'm passing things down.

[B]

Thank you. I can't wait for my real inheritance from you. Thank you so much.

[A]

Oh, God, no. I hope you like cast albums.

[B]

I do. I really do. We are in a cast album office right now. I'm staring at the artwork for My Fair Lady, Anastasia Matilda, Color Purple, once on this island. And others.

[A]

All things I did.

[B]

All. All things that Robbie Roselle did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, so Toby, you know, Toby is hot. Toby is smart. Toby is very charming, even though he's kind of a disaster. And that's something that he eventually learns about himself. And what we kind of learn is like, the only reason that Toby had friends was because he and Eric met and Eric had friends. And Eric is a kind person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And also very smart. And he's very much the host. Eric loves to cook. Eric loves to. It's not just that Eric has this giant, like, four bedroom apartment on the Upper west side that he pays for $3. For $3. Which they use as. Which they use as a writing joke. And you know, because of that, he hosts all these parties for his friends. He uses it to his advantage. And then they. Anytime someone has a birthday party, oh, you're having it at my place. We have the room. New Year's, my place.

[A]

I'm cooking.

[B]

I'm cooking. Yeah, come on over.

[A]

Bring a red Truly.

[B]

Which is like just the best kind of friends.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I. I love to cook. I'm lazy, so I don't do it very often. But, like, if I'm inviting people over to my home for. For a thing, like, I'm gonna do the majority of the work. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Listen, we just had a birthday party for our friend Rob Schneider.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At which that was me pulling a full blown Eric. I was like, we're making up the guest list. I'm inviting all the people. I baked a cake. I'm getting us some pizza. Bring a red.

[A]

But like, we. We hand roll pasta for friends.

[B]

Robbie and Len literally hand rolled pasta for me. When I came over to watch Howard's end, I felt like the atom to your Toby.

[A]

And you Brought a red.

[B]

I brought a red. Yep. You asked. I asked, what do I bring? And you said, a red.

[A]

A red.

[B]

And you said in that voice, bring a red.

[A]

Oh, yes. It's our history. It's our history.

[B]

Then let's watch some Howard's End, which we watched while talking through. It was very Mystery Science Theater.

[A]

Yeah, we were very much. But we were commenting on what was happening.

[B]

Yeah, we were paying attention.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But we were like, we're in a movie theater. We must watch the whole thing.

[A]

It was so much beige. That film has so much beige.

[B]

Yeah. We talked a lot about the score. We talked a lot about Emma Thompson. We talked a lot about Helena's eyebrows and jawline.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's different.

[B]

It is. It is different. She had. She had a different jawline and eyebrows at the time.

[A]

Also Vanessa Redgrave, who carries over to the inheritance.

[B]

Yes, she sure do.

[A]

In a major way.

[B]

Yeah. Listen, the fucking synergy of that casting, which she didn't come to Broadway with, but to bring it back to Toby, as we expand from there, you know, we all know a Toby darling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

100% that person where it's like, you don't dislike them, but they are a lot of work. And when you kind of come down to it, you're like, I think there's more things about you that I don't like. The things that I do. And because of, you know, who you were with. Because after a certain while, it's really difficult to sever ties from someone because you're all just too ingrained.

[A]

There's some kind of magnet that pulls.

[B]

Yeah. And like, when someone just gets caught up in your friend web, like, it's really difficult to be like, can we pick them out? And, you know, it's not like they're uber toxic or awful. It's just like, you know, I like them less than my other friends. I'm more put up with them. And occasionally they make it worth it.

[A]

Matt has said that about me, me often.

[B]

I've never said, you're worth it. I've never said that. There are many things you've put in my mouth. None of them have good words. But, yeah, I think Toby realizes all this about himself once he and Eric split. Because Eric doesn't even, like, say to his friends, you know, it's me or Toby. They just split. And the friends pick Eric because they're like, we were already friends with him. We like him more.

[A]

And Toby is like, oh, God, who am I without Eric and this? And that's what starts the Spiral.

[B]

Absolutely. And. And needing to be praised, needing to be liked, needing. Needing constant validation because he. He grew up without it. And he puts his faith in the words people say, in the money they throw at you, at the wanting to pay you. You. Or hang out with you. One of those three. That's.

[A]

Or.

[B]

Or just say how brilliant you are. That's what Toby takes stock in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Eric. It takes stock. You know, who's there for you when you're sick?

[A]

Because they. They were in Eric and Toby, and then suddenly they're Eric.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Toby. Like Len and I are Len and Robbie.

[B]

You are.

[A]

We are seen as a unit often, even though both of us have distinct friend groups as well. It's just. Oh, God. First of all, we're never breaking down. Similar to that.

[B]

But we've talked about it many times, and every time we just go. I don't see it happening.

[A]

Yeah, it's not. That's not a thing. But. But I can't imagine. So I can't imagine being a Toby who suddenly is dropped. Boom. Right. Especially when at the height of his success, suddenly it all is pulled out from under him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's wild.

[B]

And the thing about Toby is, like, no one actually takes anything away from him. He just does it to himself.

[A]

Yeah. Repeatedly.

[B]

Repeatedly. And then you have a character like Adam, who's. Adam is more kind of a plot point than he is a real character.

[A]

He's Bobby and Company.

[B]

Yeah. He's there to expose the slight wedge between Eric and Toby because one of the things that really kind of cracks them up. A few things crack them up. So the play takes place in the real world. And very much, you know, it's 2016, 2017, I think, are the two years that they cover.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because the 2016 election is covered in the play. When Toby and Adam are in Chicago working on the play, Eric is with his friends, you know, at a watch party. Yes. With Walter. I think Walter's with them for the results. Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because Walter. No, Walter's not with him. Well, they have a party that Walter's at, and Walter's the first one to say, like, well, what if Hillary loses? And all the friends are like, you're crazy. And so they show the Watch party.

[A]

Henry says that. Well, Walter says it.

[B]

Yeah, I know, I know. Because it's. It. Henry. Henry doesn't really show up.

[A]

Show up until after Walter passes. Yeah. But I don't think he shows up at all until after Walter passes.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's correct. Unless there's some Staging that Daldry did that. I'm misremembering. There's no.

[A]

Because it was John Benjamin Hickey and we would have noticed him on stage.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I notice every time he's on my stage.

[A]

And that's why we listen to Brockway Daddy.

[B]

He sort of. So when the election is happening, as it's becoming clearer and clearer that 45 is going to win, Eric is constantly calling Toby, who's just not picking up. So that's already like putting a little bit of a wedge in there.

[A]

A red flag.

[B]

Yeah. And then when Toby comes back, there's just no communication, is already fraught. And then Toby finds out about the eviction and realizes that Eric has known for a while and that the day that Eric found out, rather than tell Toby, here's what's happening, he goes and says, toby, I want to have sex. So they have sex and then Eric proposes marriage, which Toby accepts, and they ask, why wouldn't you tell me? And Eric openly admits, you know, like, A, I didn't think you were going to be able to handle it. And B, there's a part of me that always felt like you were with me because of the apartment. And it may not have been true, but the fact that, like, there's a kernel of truth in there, you know, again, it exposes a wedge that was already there. And so Adam was already was up. Is a character to kind of force it in there because he's there to distract Toby. Show that there are feelings in Toby that Eric cannot satisfy, that no one can. And then after that, Adam becomes a fixation for Toby for the rest of the play that Leo then takes up.

[A]

Yeah. Takes over. Although Adam and Toby do. No, they don't have sex, but they. Adam describes a sexual encounter.

[B]

He does.

[A]

That gets horrific because sex is not used well in this play.

[B]

Talk about it.

[A]

I would love to. Thank you. So there are two literally massive sexual encounters within this play, and both of them end in blood.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In the first play, Part one, Adam is describing a bathhouse in Prague. I feel like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Somewhere.

[B]

I think Germany. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Berlin.

[A]

Is it Berlin? Yes, I think.

[B]

I think. I'm pretty sure it's Berlin.

[A]

So. And describing a sort of a. An orgy within the bath house that he is the. The lead.

[B]

Yeah, He. He causes an orgy at the bathhouse.

[A]

And who among us hasn't?

[B]

But again, that's sort of the thing about Adam that makes it so difficult to cast because you have someone who's just constantly referred to as like, the Hottest thing ever that everyone wants to fuck. And I'm like, okay, you know, you cast someone who you think fits that description and you got someone like me sitting there being like, I know I probably wouldn't.

[A]

It's the. It's the Maureen in Rent syndrome. Right. Because we don't see Maureen until halfway through act one more when she says, joanne, which way to the stage? And suddenly this mythical creature that we've heard about for so long has to live up. And you know, Idina Menzel lived up.

[B]

But not every marine did. But so yes, Adam was talking about the bath house.

[A]

The bath house. And how there was unprotected sex. 15. It was a glorious experience for him with like 15 guys or so. And then after he had relieved himself, suddenly he turned on him. It was kind of self hating because he was like, oh my God, I can't believe I did this. I'm a terrible human for having done this. I'm ashamed. I smell.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was blood. He's literally bleeding from his anus.

[B]

He is.

[A]

Right. So then in Act Part 2, I'm gonna do this all the time. And I'm so sorry. In part two, the drug fueled orgy of Leo happens. So it's the same actor.

[B]

Same actor, yeah.

[A]

And again, it ends violently with him bleeding from his anus. Which in my opinion, because sex is never positive within the seven hours of this play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's never shown positively.

[B]

It's. There's. There are hints of it, but like, just hints. Because they show the Eric. Toby sex when Eric chooses not to tell Toby about the apartment. And it is described in the text and the way that they staged it because part of the idea that Dollary kind of gave that company and the production for a while, for a part one anyway, was because it was a bunch of men sitting around writing stories. This was a story that who we at first think is Adam, we eventually find out it's Leo telling the story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That, you know, there's all this truth to it. But that everyone involved in the story is also kind of improvising at the same time.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Yeah. Anytime they would talk about a new character, someone playing that character would pop up and like say something that came to mind. Like, oh, and they're. They're this. And then someone else would shout like, and they're this.

[A]

Yeah. And it's very much. It's giving improv theater group.

[B]

Yeah. It's very much giving ucb. It's very queer. Ucb. And you know, the design was like a giant Sort of table stage that.

[A]

Would rise lower upside down.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It would rise and lower. Yeah.

[A]

And they sat around with, like, laptops and stuff because they're writing this as they go.

[B]

Yeah. And so Toby and Eric, the actors playing Toby and Eric, fully clothed, are on the table stage. Everyone else is around them as it's being described. And they do this sort of, like, dance with each other, at least in the original production, the way that they did it. And it was fun. More sort of the improv of that was, how do we now create a new dance move together that implies to the audience what it is we're doing without actually doing it?

[A]

It's the end of Act 1 of Spring Awakening, where everybody's just pushing Lea Michele and Groff on a swing.

[B]

On the swing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And it's humorous, but it's not. And it's creative, but it's not necessarily showing, like, the heat and the joy of sex.

[A]

It is not. Every time that sex is shown in this play, it is a weapon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it almost reads, gay sex is bad. Gay sex will kill you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. I don't love that. Especially for a play that has so much about the aids. The. The AIDS epidemic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That sucks.

[B]

I think there's a. There's so. And I don't think, like, Lopez thinks the gay sex is bad, obviously.

[A]

No, I don't either. I mean, he did kind of.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Red, white and royal blue.

[B]

Kind of. Yeah. But I think the only character before the Fire island sex. Doom. That's the best way to describe that. Right.

[A]

I just saw you in real time, like, trying to figure out where that was. Land that plane.

[B]

Land that plane. And honestly, kind of landed it. Land this plane, Carol.

[A]

Land it.

[B]

But when Leo is with Toby, they first have an encounter and it's all fine. And then, you know, they run into each other again a few weeks later and start basically a relationship. And Leo talks about, not to Toby, but to the audience, that this was the first time sex had really been enjoyable for him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The first time he and Toby had sex and he was paid, he actually finished, which is something that rarely happened with him. But he enjoyed it. He felt safe. He felt intimate. Then, of course, it turns on him. Yeah. Harley in Fire Island. But as it does for all of us. For all of us. But, yeah, I think with the Adam story, with the bathhouse, I think part of it is, like, he started to feel disgusted by himself. But then also he realized that in the heat of the moment, he was being dumb and having unprotected sex when he himself was not on prep or anything like that. And, of course, Adam, the story. We also don't know how much of the story is true.

[A]

That's. That is correct.

[B]

Because Adam's telling the story to Toby, like, pretty much just in his underwear. Because there's a moment where Adam tries to kind of sort of seduce Toby, and Toby, for some reason, doesn't bite. And I wonder if it's. You know, Toby's not sure if Adam actually means it or if Toby is still. Because Toby also has resentment for Adam for being adopted into this incredibly wealthy family and uses that as a weapon against Adam a lot. And so then. And the whole reason why Adam tells the story is Toby's like, you don't know what it is to be, like, deathly afraid for your wife.

[A]

And he's like, oh, yeah.

[B]

He's like, let me watch this motherfucker. And talks about it and gets very intense about it and says, no. And I had to go. I called up my mom and I in. She got me into the family doctor, and they put me on this treatment. They tested my blood, put me on some immediate treatment for azt. And they did one blood test right before I took the AZT, like, within 24 hours of this experience. And then they made me do another blood test like, 72 hours later. And he's like, that entire. It's like, on his winter break from school, too. And they're like, in Aspen. And he's like, so. And he's, like, saying this with so much passion. And part of me is like, you're going like. And I had to sit there scared for my life in Aspen on winter break. And it's, you know, it's very, you know, bravo.

[A]

It's also the white privilege of. The white privilege. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And he's saying, scared for my life. And he goes, the first test results came back positive. And then he said the second one came back negative. So he had been infected for, like, a brief moment, but because they put him on AZT so immediately.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It killed the virus, which is. That can happen. They talk about that in the Laramie Project. The police officer that found Matthew Shepard was exposed to HIV. Because Matthew Shepard had HIV.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But they put her on AZT within 72 hours of infection, and she. They killed it killed the virus. But most people aren't granted that.

[A]

Most people don't know.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So know your status.

[B]

Knew your status and get tested as. After his passion to everybody. But so, yeah. And he's. And so in that moment, he then says to Toby, don't tell me I don't know what it is to be scared for my life. And then turns to the onyx and he's like. And says, you know, Adam knew in that moment just how well he could, you know, captivate an audience. And so you're left to wonder how much of that story was actually true. Was any of it true? Because Adam, we learn, is a phenomenal actor.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Well, the character of Adam, the characters.

[B]

Yeah. Not necessarily the actor himself playing Adam.

[A]

Yeah, he was good.

[B]

I thought he was fine. I remember Ben Bradley actually really loved him. Of all the things that he pointed out, he was like, this is one of the best debuts I've seen in years.

[A]

I mean, it's probably more the two sided role of it and not so much the skill.

[B]

Yeah, he was fine. He was definitely not my favorite of the trio. No. I felt that he was hired for his passion and his body. Because one thing that the Inheritance does take from love, valor, compassion is, if not necessarily the glory of gay sex, the glory of the male body.

[A]

Oh, my God, so many abs.

[B]

So many abs. A couple of penises.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, a couple penises. A lot of underwear. And Andrew Burnap looks great in a Speedo. Andrew Burnup looks great in and out of a Speedo. I assume out. I don't know, but I just assume.

[A]

Listen.

[B]

Very, very handsome man. Nice body. But a lot of those actors were very similar pretty boys with good bodies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And which is a.

[A]

Which is a subset of the gay culture, specifically the Fire island gay culture.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that probably added to the vitriol from a lot of queer people about the inheritance, because let's also be very clear, this backlash, this quote unquote problematicness of the Inheritance came solely from the gay community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And ironically, a lot of gay people who. I think the Inheritance is literally about people who look like Matthew Lopez and look like Andrew Burnaby saw the Inheritance and it was a case of watching it and going, I hate this. Burn it with fire because it's.

[A]

It's too close to home.

[B]

Yeah. And also it's an incredibly earnest play.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Have you noticed this, by the way? And not just plays, but like so many works that are incredibly earnest are the ones that get comfort. They get immediate praise and then when the public receives it, immediately get ridiculed.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I feel like as an audience right now, a lot of people want a little bit of sarcasm. They can't handle full throated honesty or passion.

[A]

I don't necessarily think they want even honesty. I think what they want are just like, fully redeemable, happy ending, 90 minute, no intermission things where very little happens.

[B]

Yeah. With also, like a touch of a wink here. I mean, I think part of the reason why a lot of people could get on board with Slave Play, in addition to, you know, the themes of it all, which is it's done in a very cheeky presentation.

[A]

Yeah. Slave Play wasn't a play that I enjoyed.

[B]

I did not either. And. And everyone can go back and listen to that episode as we talk about why. But it is presented in a cheeky manner, which I think helped a lot of people accept was more swallowable for them that way. If Slave Play was in, it was an earnest, earnest, sure depiction of that story. I don't know how it would have gone over. And the Inheritance is a play that. Where Matthew Lopez's heart is on his sleeve in this one.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

Yeah. Which isn't to say that, you know, I think that the play is perfect. We've already discussed how we feel about the sexual component of it. I also think, and it's ironic I say this with the podcast that I have. I think it's incredibly overwritten. There's a lot of fat in this play.

[A]

Yeah. Because it's seven hours long.

[B]

It doesn't need to be.

[A]

You know, sometimes I'll text you after listening to an episode and say, when is an episode just an audiobook? That's what this play is so long. And doesn't need all of it. It honestly doesn't need the whole group of friends. It's kind of a chamber opera, when you think about it, that like. Like Bridges of Madison county, It's. It's about three people, and suddenly there's like 70 people on stage and you're like, why? Why are we all here? We can cut stage. We're 21. That doesn't.

[B]

The Cass Morgan song cut that.

[A]

Bye bye, don't let the door hit you, but the same thing. Yeah. This is a very overwritten play. And I don't know if it's because Howard's End is also flowery and overwritten, because I don't think Matthew Lopez necessarily writes that way. So is it an homage to the source?

[B]

I don't know. I want to get more into his other plays to understand that, because I researched the critical reception of his other plays, and he had a play called Somewhere, which was about a Hispanic family living in.

[A]

Oh, so he wrote about himself at one point.

[B]

He sure did. About A Hispanic family living, I think, in San Juan Hill as it's about to get torn down to be Lincoln center, while west side Story has just premiered on.

[A]

I would like to see that.

[B]

Yeah. And which is. And the reviews that I read compared him to Tennessee Williams in the way that he wrote dialogue.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I want to read that play.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that. I mean, talk about flowery. Tennessee Williams was a flowery playwright. He was best known for his prose. The way he could just turn a phrase. A Tennessee Williams. A good Tennessee Williams play is like a sweaty flower that is growing out of a glass of bourbon.

[A]

Wow. The way you just created a metaphor on the fly. I watched your brain turning in real time to hit it. That was magnificent. Magic.

[B]

She also writes herself, by the way, just so everyone knows that's true.

[A]

It's written a very good play.

[B]

I did. It's currently a semi finalist for the Transfer Canali New Works incubator.

[A]

It's called the Inheritance Part two. And it says, fuck you, Nora.

[B]

What's the opposite of an inheritance? The canceling of the trust fund is my place. Anyway. But, like, that kind of prose, it's really difficult to get that right. And I have tried, and I just can't do it. But you have to live in a certain kind of world for it to make sense. And like all of Tennessee Williams's plays, even though they are about real people, they all have this, like, whiff of perfume about them. So it's always a little heightened.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So the poetry of his dialogue makes sense. And Howard end, again, like, comes from a time period where that is how people spoke. And that was the kind of novel that people read.

[A]

I mean, just the. The Austens and the Brontes, etcetera, Which are all overwritten. And Dickens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wildly overwritten. Yeah. Honestly, Tale of Two Cities could have been an email, but the Tale of.

[B]

Two Cities opens with Charles Dickens talking about a mouse. And I'm like, why? By the word. And it shows.

[A]

But not that Forrester was paid by Gord, but he was writing in the fashion of the day.

[B]

Yeah. And Lopez, I think, tries to channel that while also leaning into his own tendencies to write flowery. And there are times when it's really beautiful and other times where it's like, we need to streamline this more because there are a lot of scenes with the friends where they pontificate in ways where it's like, the root of this is something, but it's just shrouded in fact.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Also.

[A]

Oh. So let's talk about Forrester. As a character for a second.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because Forrester disappears like he's the narrator and into the woods.

[B]

Yes. Toby calls him out and he. And Forrester goes, I shall remove myself now.

[A]

Right. Because Forrester was a gay man.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And didn't write any gay characters. Really. And so he had one book, Morris.

[B]

Morris, that was published posthumously.

[A]

Right. But so in his lifetime.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He. He was like assuming. Assumed. I don't know. But a closeted gay man who wrote Howard's End and others. Right.

[B]

And others.

[A]

Right. My friend Nika says, sometimes you're the thumbnail, sometimes you're. And more. And that's all I ever. I hear it all the time.

[B]

Sometimes you're the thumbnail and sometimes you're York and more.

[A]

Yep. So he. He says, I can't speak to the.

[B]

You.

[A]

You can't speak about this because you didn't write it in your time. Which, to be fair, would probably have got him killed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I don't. And listen, Toby's arguing with a dead man. So that to me is like, how come. What. What are we doing? But I don't necessarily think that's the tactic to use because you can only go as far as you can possibly go in the time you have.

[B]

Yeah. Think Oscar Wilde did not write about being queer and still got killed because of how he lived.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Capote never wrote anything about being queer. I'm pretty sure.

[A]

No.

[B]

I think he sometimes wrote about women and being sexually fluid, but not actual homosexuality for him, at least for himself. And Capote and Wilde are other writers that wrote these beautiful prose that were, you know, lauded around the world, but never brought their own stories to the forefront.

[A]

Right. And Howards End by itself is not a queer coded book.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[A]

Right. So just having the idea to take Howards End queer it in. In its way, is it interesting and fascinating idea. I do wonder about all of the sort of arguments, the. The tangential asides about things that happen. Why are they there at all, do you think?

[B]

The friends.

[A]

Yeah. Other than having a friend group, I.

[B]

Think part of it is to have mouthpieces for the audience. When Eric and Henry get engaged and Henry meets the friends in a mostly disastrous.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Meeting. Although Henry has one of my favorite mic drops, which is. Is related to the AIDS inheritance of it all.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

So it's Eric's friends learn that Henry is a Republican.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And not only Republican. He voted for 45, knows 45 can gave him money. And they are all.

[A]

Someone had to.

[B]

Someone had to. And they all. Right. And they all, you know, are infuriated by this and don't understand. And on the moral issue, they are correct. And Henry does not object to their morality. He's like, I'm with you on that. I think that there are different ways to affect change.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He's like, I don't understand what good it is for you to, you know, canvas on 8th Avenue. He's like, I can give money where I see to give money. And I think what's good for the economy is good for the world. And, like, what's good for the world is good for us. And that is. It's a very simplistic attitude. There, again, there are kernels of truth in what Henry is saying is what. Is what makes it so dangerous, because how he carries it out I think is wrong. And also, Henry, at this point has just been so emotionally shut down.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Based off of his life. And the friend. And the friends just keep kind of coming at him and Adam, while Eric is just trying to be like, can we all just get along? By the way, we're engaged and I'm about to tell you. All right.

[A]

And Eric's like, just. I'm trying to cook over.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like, let's please. Let's please just get along.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And. And the final mic drop is essentially one of Eric's friends who's been shouting at Henry this entire time. And Henry is just finding Eric's friends insufferable. Insufferable, but amusingly insufferable, which makes them.

[A]

Even more incensed because he's not swatting them like flies.

[B]

Yeah. He's not getting mad at them.

[A]

No.

[B]

He's just being like, you're all. Like, you're all just so young. You're children. Yeah. And they're. And that just makes them worse because, like, indifference is the worst thing to get, and then, like, to be belittled is the second worst.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so one of them says to him, you know, gay men your age? And Henry just shouts back, there are no gay men my age. Not nearly enough. And then he walks out, which, again, I remember watching the play feeling like, why is no one clapping back at Henry in the way he needs to? And then Henry said that. I'm like, I've hated most of what Henry has said until now. And that line doesn't change anything. But he's not wrong about that line.

[A]

No, that is. That is a wildly powerful, powerful line.

[B]

Yes. And what. And again, it's one of those things, like, for all the fad and all the whatevers of. Of Lopez with this play. Like, there's a moment like that and you go, there's something here, especially when.

[A]

You'Re seeing it in the theater. And you know, often you think about the, The. The generation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That we love, the lost generation of theater makers and. Which caused the British invasion to take.

[B]

Over as well as it did. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, you know, and I think about. I say that just knowing, like, Tommy Tune turned 85 today as we're recording and was like the last of that generation. Like, because we.

[B]

I mean, we lost Bennett. We lost so many.

[A]

So many.

[B]

And. And so the point is, you're asking about the friends after that scene. You know, the friends are there to kind of speak for the audience, to ask Eric, what the fuck are you doing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Otherwise they really add nothing else to the plot.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's other than to, I guess, show community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they are. They are relatively healthy gay friendships to show that gay men can be friends with each other. They're not all just fucking each other all the time.

[A]

Weird.

[B]

Yeah, weird. Weird, right. Because with Adam as a friend, Eric doesn't want to have sex with Adam, even though Toby does. And I think that alone is a good way to show, you know, friendships are complicated in general, but in the same way that When Harry Met Sally asks, like, can men and women be friends? Straight men and women? And I would argue that When Harry Met Sally makes the case that no, they cannot. And I think the inheritance with that triangle of Eric, Adam and Toby shows like you can be friends with your gay friends and not want to fuck them. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. And sometimes just because you find your friend attractive and wouldn't mind having sex with them doesn't mean you're not friends with them. Like, that's the primary focus.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But yeah, no, I think the friends are included in that fat that we, that we spoke of earlier. And even the powerful stuff like Walter's speech about how he and Henry met, like, what's her name?

[A]

Oh, Margaret.

[B]

Margaret. Oh. Which is a reference to Howards End, because the era character in Howard Zen's name is Margaret. Margaret Schlegel. I think they're the Schlegel sisters.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

German Margaret and Helen. But Margaret, her whole scene. Scene.

[A]

Yeah, it's a monologue, basically.

[B]

It's just her talking and it's lovely. But, like, there's some fat in there. Sure, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, listen, it is a. Because it is fatty. It is an award winning role.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is one of those, like Doubt, right, When. When the mother comes in, like, and for 15 minutes or whatever, like, you.

[B]

Go, oh, it's not even 15, though. So I just saw Doubt last night.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

The current Roundabout production. It's. Yeah, it's an 85 minute production currently.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Doubt is a lean play. Always has been. This production is.

[A]

Thank you. I've been reducing this.

[B]

This production is okay. It's just okay. But watching that scene, I was reminded of just how short it is. And this production doesn't really do it to its best because if you watch the original, if you go to the library to watch the original with Adrienne Lennox, it is incredibly powerful. You watch the movie with Viola Davis, they split that scene in half. And Viola Davis, I think, has maximum 10 minutes screen time. Maximum from the moment you see her to the moment she walks away, not even just talking. But it is, as you said, it is a powerful, pointed scene. And I think that it doesn't take anything away from Margaret to get to the heart of what she's talking about a little faster. But it is a chewy. It is a chewy role, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. A meaty role.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's. There's absolute meat there. But the same thing with Slave Plate. There's also fat on the bone and. All right. But actually, you know what? I have. I have no transition for this, but I do know by timing we do need to take one last break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. So we talked. We touched on this for a second, but I want to get into it a bit more, which is the actual production that we both were exposed to with the Inheritance, the Broadway production that transferred from the West End.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Directed by Stephen Daldrey, designed by Bob Crowley.

[A]

Gorgeous.

[B]

I know Crowley very rarely misses. When he misses, he misses hard. But that's like, honestly, 10% of the time, 90% of the time, he delivers sets that just make you want to cry. And his set for the Inheritance was a relatively simple one.

[A]

Or deceptively, deceptively simple. Let's say that.

[B]

So that we have the main piece, which was the table stage thing, it's.

[A]

Almost like a big, big community table at Le Pen.

[B]

Because, well, again, it would rise, it would lower and go.

[A]

Into the floor and create, like, plain spaces.

[B]

Yes, exactly. I think he would tilt It. A little bit at some point.

[A]

And it was just sort of white.

[B]

Yes. In a giant black space. And then every now and then, something would pop up from behind, like a dollhouse or a tree or.

[A]

Oh. And most of the cast was in white.

[B]

Yes. Various shades of beige. Of beige, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Like the cast, there were a handful.

[B]

Of non white people, but just a handful. Yeah, yeah. It was. It was very much a highly theatrical, as you said, playing space. And part one was all about the table. Table. And, and, and the take from the cast, again, was like the excitement of creating a story, of telling a story, and. And everyone collaborating to make this story happen. And as the story started to get sadder and taking turns that certain people weren't liking, like an into the woods.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, people like Toby turn on everyone and turn on Forrester. Starting with. I think it's Leo who says this. When Leo slash Adam with narrating saying that, you know, oh, that's going to be the last Christmas that Toby ever saw.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of that. Like he didn't know that he would be dead in a year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And then the actor who plays that role. So this is a question. Is this a theater troupe who is performing in real time because they're improvising, or is it real people, real stakes? But being fed narrator style.

[B]

I don't know if I had to guess, based off of how the writing went and the acting went, it felt to me like a group of men.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Living their lives in like a theatrical lab.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so they were go. They were living their authentic lives while also being aware that there were people.

[A]

Watching Strings My Fair lady style.

[B]

Exactly. And watching them go about it and trying to take ownership of their fate and their paths and being frustrated when they would only be given bits of leeway.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And when certain facts would come out that they didn't like, then they retaliated. And granted, the person that had that the most was Toby. Toby was unhappy to hear when the play premiered in Chicago that he got the worst notices because, you know, they. They say, oh, the play opened and Adam was lauded and the direction was. It was incredible. And then Toby goes. Toby Darling was considered the. No, the next Arthur Miller and Tennessee Williams think of. Nope, that is not what happened. And he gets pissed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then when he hears and Toby is gonna be dead in a year, then he's like, now. Then he really.

[A]

Wait, what?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's the one who turns on Forester and says, you know, you could have written about us way before you ever did. You lived in the closet. Imagine, like, the per. Imagine the queer kid who were at Morris in 1912, whose, like, life you could have changed. So. But which we've already discussed. Like, that's a little unfair to the time.

[A]

100%. But also, like, that's Toby also claiming that he's doing that himself now, even though his Romana clef and play are a lie. Yeah, it's just like a layer on top of that.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, that's just. That's one where you could just argue. Well, representation is representation, but it is a lie. And it is something that he becomes aware of in part two when he actually sees the play again with that fresh coat of eyes. Because.

[A]

Fresh coat of eyes.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I said. And I'll keep that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a capote that's making the edit.

[B]

Yeah, making the edit. A fresh coat of eyes. Great. I don't know. Sounded cool to me.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. A fresh coat of eyes. I don't know. I haven't had lunch today. I'm gonna eat after this.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Thank you. And not leave a single crumb, but, yeah, that's. That's. That's where I get the idea of. Of them. But also, like, I don't know, it might make incredible sense to Lopez and not to anyone else. Or am I making incredible sense to Daldry and no one else? I think the fact that they're so aware is what kind of makes it difficult.

[A]

I mean, they're definitely the. The playwright and the director are very much on the same page.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In terms of how the play was written and executed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the design of it, specifically, like, when you reach the house, because you've been in this white space this whole time, and sometimes, like, a chair appears or something, but that's it. You're not getting, like, a set. You don't. It's not like, rooms with doors.

[B]

It is not literal.

[A]

Right. That when, like, suddenly that dollhouse appears and that's the house. And also that mammoth tree.

[B]

The tree doesn't show up till part two, Right. Yeah.

[A]

Correct. And there's a beautiful score by. I looked up the name because you can. You can stream it. The score is by Paul Englishby. Yes. And actually the logo of it is not the logo of the show. And so it's all of them sitting on a book, an open book with a blooming tree blooming out of it.

[B]

I think that was the poster in London.

[A]

Do you.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Because the. But what we know here is the cherry blossom on fire.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is a powerful image.

[A]

It really is.

[B]

And I think with Broadway, we tend to go more simple with our artwork.

[A]

Sometimes.

[B]

If you want to have your show become recognizable, you give it one image. So Hamilton did the guy on the star.

[A]

Hamilton.

[B]

Hamilton, yeah. Hamilton on the star. But McIntosh was famous for doing very simple.

[A]

The. The Duentur logos, which I. Are incredible.

[B]

Yeah. The mask and rose for Phantom. Cosette for Les Mis. The eyes for Cats.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so the helicopter. The helicopter with the face.

[A]

So. But the inheritance, specifically the. The New York advertising of it, when it wasn't gaining the traction they. They expected to get, suddenly they started using a lot of black and white imagery. Do you remember that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't think that helped it.

[B]

No. Well, I've mentioned this already, other than.

[A]

To, like, make it look classy.

[B]

Yeah. I mentioned this already, I think, in the Tony episode, but I don't know a single Broadway show that ever advertised with. We are important. See us because we're important, and have it work out. I think if you are an important work, just let that speak for itself. Bring people in with. This is a time of theater that you're gonna.

[A]

Because that's something Harmony was doing.

[B]

Yes. And how to Dance in Ohio and Prayer for the French Republic hasn't really done that now. They started with that, but now that they're actually selling tickets, like, let's lean off that now. People are coming. We don't have to shame anybody anymore. But leaning into, like, we are important, cultured theater. See us because it's the correct thing to do and make it more just. This is time that you're gonna think was well spent. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So. So that dollhouse, which is very. Love, valor, compassion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And not a rip, but, like, it is a nod to this epic queer friend play.

[B]

An inheritance, so to speak.

[A]

Oh. If you will. It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

[B]

I think the first tangible set piece that's not like a chair that we see.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And then in Act 2, when we. Like, that tree is also beautiful because it's shedding leaves and just.

[B]

And the tree is also mentioned a lot in the play because it's mentioned in Howards End.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

There's a tree on the property with pig's teeth in the bark.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the trunk, which because. Had been in there for hundreds of years, since colonial times. The locals thought that if you were ailing and you nibbled the bark, you would be healed. And I do like that they mentioned this. In the inheritance, Howard's Ends, they just sort of say it and walk away from it. But in the inheritance, someone goes, is that true? And they go, no, it's not true. Like, but it's fun, right? Yep. But it. With Howards End, it's just sort of this fun little thing. And the inheritance, the pig's teeth in the trunk with the bark, quote unquote. Having healing powers adds to the element of that property being a healing place. Or at the very. Or at the very least, a place of rest. A place of comfort.

[A]

Of comfort, yeah. God, a place of rest. Can you just imagine, over and over and over, ambulances having to come to that home and take away bodies.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Like, what.

[B]

That's something that Lopez dial.

[A]

Not at all. Truly. And, like, I have not thought about that until this minute. Like, what were those calls?

[B]

Yeah. How did that happen? How. How did Walter not get inquiries from the police of, like, that's the 10th body we've taken from your home.

[A]

Why is everybody dying? Are you.

[B]

I think the moment they see that, it's like an AIDS patient, they go, oh, no questions asked.

[A]

Are you Jessica Fletcher? Right.

[B]

All these people just keep dying around you. What's going on, bitch? I'm writing another book. Okay, no. No one ever questioned Ms. Marple.

[A]

You're not wrong.

[B]

Yeah. And that is elitism, and that is gay science. That. That's privilege, baby.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, you could. You could be an older British woman, have people die around, you know, and ask questions. But being a gay man in the United States, all of a sudden, you're an SVU episode.

[A]

It's like Stewie gone Wrong. I don't know what's happening.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's more. It's kind of more of a South part.

[A]

Yeah, it's Carmen meets Stewie.

[B]

Yeah, it's kind of it, Brian.

[A]

I hate it. Cool Whip. All right, Cool Whip. Thank God we have these great microphones with protectors over it because we're, like, whipping everywhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, back to the inheritance and the gays. So it is received and it won awards.

[B]

Yeah, but what do you think it.

[A]

Would have won the awards that it won if it were not a ghastly. If the season had completed.

[B]

No, I don't. I think it would have gotten nominated for maybe half of what it got nominated for because it got nominated for a lot of stuff just because there wasn't enough to nominate. Same thing is true of Slave Play, I think Slave Play and The Inheritance probably would have made it in the end into five best plays. Sure. Possibly because Lehman Trilogy hadn't opened yet, and that was like, the big titty, you know. Here we come.

[A]

Gorgeous.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like there were some other plays that were supposed to come in that didn't happen because of COVID I mean. Oh, yeah.

[A]

New plays. Because there was also that, like.

[B]

Well, there was the Virginia Wolves. Yeah.

[A]

We are so gay.

[B]

We both went immediately, immediately to Virginia Wolf, Lori Metcalf. I think they had, like, four previews, and then. And Covid shut down. And I remember all the reviews saying, like, their production's really good. It's gonna. I think it'll be great. By the time it opens, like, Laurie Metcalf is already firing all cylinders. And I was like, God damn it. I never got to see reviews. I know. I never got to see Metcalf's Martha. And it kills me to this day. Yeah. No, I don't think it would have won, but the fact that it did win. So I talked about this with Slave Play, which was that there was a narrative going into the Gas league. Tonys of Slave plays got this in the bag. It's just a matter of how many they're gonna win, and then they didn't end up winning anything.

[A]

Yeah. The most Tony Ward losing play in history.

[B]

Yes. Not the most Tony losing production. I want to also say that because we mentioned this on the Slave Play episode, and Marcus had said, oh, it's interesting that it's that and Scott's Roar, Boys. Like, what does that tell you? Another show that had 12 Tony nominations and 10 was Mean Girls. So it's not. There's. There's.

[A]

I mean, Steel Pier. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Did steel Pierre have 12?

[A]

Steel Pier, I think at 13, one more than Chicago and lost everything.

[B]

Lost absolutely everything to Chicago. There. There are shows that have come to the Tonys and gone home empty handed. Yeah, completely.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I mean, how many nominations is unclear for some, but, yeah, Mean Girls, Steel Pierre.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It. It happens. I think what we talked about with Slave Play, though.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Was that. Was just that that was a case of people voting, not how they were presenting in public. And you can read it. But again, it's not just. You can look into the race of it all. But, like, you read Michael Riedel's Razzle Dazzle. He talks about the 9 Dream Girls year and how Dream Girls was already such a huge hit.

[A]

Is that Razzle Dazzle or is that Singular Sensation?

[B]

It's Russell Dazzle.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Sinclair Sensation is the Second one, right.

[A]

Because Razzle Dazzle is a better book.

[B]

It is a better book. And he talked. There's a whole chapter on the 9 versus Dreamgirls. And the Shuberts were already kind of pissing everyone off because they had sold four of their theaters to be destroyed to make way for the Marriott Hotel. On top of that, they also were just like the major landlords. And with Dreamgirls, they were so confident that they were winning, that they just were not being smart and just. And being very reckless. And Nine was sort of considered this artistic underdog. And so it was. Jimmy Nederlander says in the book, like, I knew we had a shot when, you know, I was walking down 8th Avenue, ran into a Tony voter, and they said to me, they think I'm voting for Dreamgirls, but I'm voting for Nine. And walked away. And he was like, I wonder how many people that's going to be true of. And that is true of a lot of shows where, like, the public faces, oh, we're so happy. We love you, we accept you. You're so important. And then in secret, it's like, I actually didn't like you all that much. And the inheritance, I feel like, was a play where publicly everyone's like, here are all of its problems. And then voters were like, but in secret, you know, I cried.

[A]

Yeah. And also because a lot of voters are of an age. They live through it.

[B]

Yeah. It's also, you know, not to. Not to speak lightly of a tragedy of a. As you said, a holocaust of gay men. But we see this happening. This, this. This play, in addition to the Angels in America's and normal Hearts of the World, were brilliantly satirized in the TV show the Other Two.

[A]

Yes. It was Carrie. Oh, my God.

[B]

What are the name. It's Carrie and Carrie and Brooke Go to an AIDS play.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

It's called. It's called Carrie and Brooke Go to an Eighth Play.

[A]

No, no, the name of the place.

[B]

It's. It's.

[A]

It might be called N. Aids.

[B]

I think it's called, like, Gay Men with aids. An epic.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Seven Gay Men With a is an epic poem in many parts.

[A]

Yes. And it's like millions of hours long.

[B]

Millions of hours long. It's like multiple days. And when people. And when people ask, like, oh, how many hours exactly is it? And the usher goes, why? And everyone goes, oh, no reason. However long they need. Totally fine. And then they're watching the play and, like, wait a second now, like, she's beginning with the cottage, like, what's going like. And then there gets to a point like, why are we now like in 1776? You know what, however many, however far back we have to go, we're gonna do.

[A]

And so there's a great episode. I forgot about it. It's very.

[B]

Yeah, it's their one Emmy nomination too. Really, with the writing for that episode. Yeah, it's brilliant. And it's not to take away from a. The magnificence of Angels in America or you know, the quality that is in the Inheritance, but you have those normal heart, love, valor, compassion. Which also aids play. Terrence Fuchenalli's longest play.

[A]

Well, and Terrence said as an 80 year old survivor observer and participant of the many years covered in the play that he's never had such a strong response to a play.

[B]

Yeah. As the Inheritance all. He also was Matthew Lopez's mentor.

[A]

And of course Tom Kernehe, who is the widow or of Terrence, is the lead producer of the Broadway production.

[B]

Yes. And I mean, listen, I'm not saying that their responses aren't genuine. I'm sure they are. You had a genuine reaction. I had a genuine reaction. Our friend John, former co host of the Pajama Scavage, famously did not like the Inheritance when he saw it, but he did sob at the end the of part one. So, you know, there is something there. And. But what, what the other two is satirizing is like the importance we give works just because they're covering that specific topic.

[A]

The weight.

[B]

The weight, yes, exactly. The weight of it all. Not the girth, but the weight. Yeah. And yeah, I think like the moment you sort of slap that sticker on of like important topic. Here we go. This is a legitimate candidate to be voted for then you know, people vote for it. We were doing the Tony episode with Dylan McDowell and he was like, when was the last time a full blown comedy won? It was like God of Carnage. And that was just because it was the biggest hit of the season.

[A]

Sure, yeah.

[B]

You know, Noises Off. Didn't win. Never had a chance. Lend me a Tenor. Never had a chance. With plays, it's like musical comedies can win. They need to have a little bit of heart. They need to have like that entertainment factor. But like also you think about like a genuine, genuine musical comedy. When was the last time that one Hairspray. Yeah, yeah, there you go. Avenue Q comedy. But like Avenue Q had the novelty of being the underdog. It had the puppets and also like tackling very big issues in a very light way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which Hairspray also tackles issues in a light way.

[A]

Yeah, but Hairspray is a big, fat love letter to golden age musical comedy.

[B]

You know what, Spamalot? Spamalot, I think, is, like, the last genuine comedy comedy.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I guess that could be Harris Ray.

[B]

Is it? Harris Ray is the much better musical.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

But Spamalot has not a single thought in its head other than just being like, silly Nash.

[A]

We here to be silly.

[B]

Yeah. And if Spamalot wasn't, again, such a giant hit, would that have won?

[A]

No. I mean, listen, Spamalot is the Conan o' Brien of musical theater because it's just tall and silly.

[B]

I. Conan o', Brien, though, I mean.

[A]

Go off, live your life, live your dreams.

[B]

Speaking of trees, I climbed that birchwood. But thanks.

[A]

I hate it.

[B]

Thanks. I hate it.

[A]

So what. What are your takeaways? Well, so Lois Smith would have won.

[B]

Yeah. Again, that's just a role. And Lois Smith was 90 at the time. It was just. It was a. It was too good to not give her that.

[A]

And then went into Waitress after that.

[B]

Did she?

[A]

Yeah, she was Jove for, like, six.

[B]

I thought June Squibb was.

[A]

Oh, you're right. That was June Squibb.

[B]

Not all old women are the same.

[A]

Kind of.

[B]

Kind of. Yeah. No, June Squibb went into the Waitress.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

June Squibb another. Another actress who's just going strong post 80.

[A]

Yeah. Go off.

[B]

Go off.

[A]

Live your life.

[B]

Yeah. Are you asking, like, what do I think of the inheritance in terms of problematic?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that this is another play similar to Slate play and Miss Saigon, where it's like, I think this play has genuine problems making it actually, quote, unquote, problematic. And the way that we should be using the word, which is to say there are inherent flaws here that I'm not sure can ever be fixed. Because part of the issues we have with the inheritance are also what makes the magical moment so magical. Without the time that Lopez spends on everything, I think a lot of moments wouldn't hit as hard. I find part one to be the better structured play. But I have to admit that I was more engaged during part two, if only because the messiness made it more interesting to me.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure. I mean, the Perestrika, you mean, of it all.

[B]

But again, like, I just. I adore perestroika. And everyone is always like, oh, that's the worst one. I'm like, perishoka is amazing. Yeah.

[A]

But it's the. The less arrogant.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah. Millennium Approaches is perfectly figured out. And then perestroika is messy, but perestroika gets to the emotional root of a lot of what Millennium Approaches sets up. My hot take is, I think Inheritance should be a four hour epic and you should cut out an hour and a half out of part one and take an hour and a half of part two and just throw it in there.

[A]

Honestly, I would rather see it as a six part HBO miniseries like Fellow Travelers or something where like, we see it unfold episodically because it is episodic in nature. And if it is given that air, then the writing works.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder if it would fall into the same quote, unquote backlash with a larger audience than as it did with Broadway because I just wonder if gay men have become so not. We're all this way. We all very much have main character syndrome now. But like. Yeah, but gay men. I know when we watch our stuff, when we watch stories told, it's never about, like, this is one of many stories being told about my community.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Let's look at the whole tapestry. It's always, does this one represent my story perfectly?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's me Sim syndrome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not interested in me syndrome because I want to see other people and live and see their lives. As an actor, as a human, I want more than my, you know, 500 square feet.

[B]

Absolutely. I want. If I can't see the world, I'd like to see other parts of the world through theater.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And.

[A]

And like, the best theater does that. And for me, the Inheritance did a lot of that. And a lot of that is thanks to Stephen Daldry's staging.

[B]

Yeah. I think especially with plays, we need to get back to a point of engagement, make your play engaging. And when do we start losing the audience? Maybe that's a part that we rewrite or a part that we cut. Speaking of Prayer for the French Republic, a play that I saw off Broadway, very much enjoyed, and then when it moved to Broadway with some new cast members, members I saw and I went, oh, there's some air here that we can absolutely let out. Like, there are parts where you're losing your audience. And I think because of the weight of the importance of the subject matter, no one's willing to say that.

[A]

I also do wonder if it failed. It didn't just fail because of COVID because it didn't catch on.

[B]

Yeah. It was going to close the week that Covid shut everything down anyway. Right.

[A]

Its last four performance performances were killed because of the, the, the shutdown.

[B]

The shutdown. Yeah. But it was closing anyway. Yeah.

[A]

I do wonder if. Because it was two parts, the. The commitment of that just turned off a lot of people.

[B]

Yeah, it always does.

[A]

I mean, even Harry Potter is down to whittle itself down, you know, like, what is the last thing you saw that demanded seven, eight hours of your life in. In a theater space? Not in, you know, on your couch. But you can have pause, whatever. And especially because now we're all conditioned to do that. Right? We're all conditioned to pause whenever we want. Get up, stretch.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Pour another glass of red, Whatever. Like the play demands a lot of you. Especially because it is sometimes very grim and dark and sad, and that's just not where the. Where people want to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think we've barely talked about Angels in America today. And I really thought, oh, we're gonna be like, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The discussing and dissecting how both of them are these things, but they're such different animals.

[B]

Well, angels. So first of all, Angels in America. I've talked about this before in random episodes in the past, but I like to bring it up now. Angels in America is a play that I think has fallen. It is indeed a play, factually so, but one that over the years has become victim to its greatness. It has become sort of like almost Shakespeare or Sondheim in the way that people treat it of, oh, this sacred text that we must show its magnificence and intelligence. And I'm like, I'm sitting here going, angels in America is fucking funny. It is mostly a comedy for part one. It's with tragic undertones.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Part of, you know, what makes that show so brilliant is the humor that Kushner is able to find in some of the most dour moments.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like some baller ass one liners. Personal favorite, part two, the messy one. Perestroika.

[A]

Heard of it?

[B]

Prior Walter, who is truly health wise, rock bottom.

[A]

Is he a prophet yet?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Yeah. How did you know you. I'm a prophet. It's just so many.

[A]

Wait, that was the line.

[B]

The line he has. No, that's not the line I was about to quote. But he's. He's with Lewis and because Lewis wants to reach out after having left him. And Lewis has now been with Joe Pitt, the Mormon at this point. Sure. And Prior knows all about this. Knows every, you know, has stalks Joe knows that he's a Mormon now and all these things. And he's with Lewis and Lewis is trying to kind of talk about them while also not trying to talk about Joe too much. And Prior only wants to talk about Joe and keeps bringing up things about Joe that Lewis has no idea. Prior knows. And then it gets so scary because it gets so specific. And Lewis is like looking at Prior with like, what the fuck? How do you know all this? And Prior goes, now ask me how I know he's a Mormon. Luis goes, how do you know? He goes, I'm a prophet. Fuck you. And it's so good. But Prior is at the Mormon center with Hannah Pitt and at the lowest of his health. And she says to him, are you a homosexual? Is it that obvious? What's it to you? She goes, well, would you say you're a typical homosexual? Oh, I'm stereotypical. What you mean I'm a hairdresser or something. Well, are you a hairdresser? Well, it would be your lucky day if I was. Yeah.

[A]

Great writing.

[B]

Great, great writing. To the point that Mel Brooks personally wrote Tony Kushner a note and said, you came up with one of the best clapbacks I've ever, ever seen. And it immediately follows with Prior falling down because he's so ill. Sure. And. But it. But it's this great, hilarious line. And there's a lot of that in Angels of Miracle. There's not a lot of that in the Inheritance. No, there's humor. And Lopez even, like, makes fun of himself with the length of the play because he didn't mean to write a two parter. He generally thought when he was writing it that it was going to be just like one big three and a half hour epic. And he writes the first two acts of part one, I think, and sends it to his friend or to his agent, and they're like, what are you doing? This is two hours already. And he goes, no, it's not. It's an hour. And they're like, let's get some people together and read through this. I'm going to show you that this is two and a half hours already. And they do it in two and a half hours. And Lopez is like, well, I guess it's a two parter, but the two parterness of it and it being about gay men already brought the angels in America connection. Sure, but.

[A]

Which is why we really didn't feel the need to bring it up. That's what I was saying. We barely talked about it.

[B]

I know. And when I understand that, you know, why you would think that. And I thought we were going to as well, because when the Inheritance came to Broadway, everyone was like, oh, I guess this is the next angel.

[A]

This is millennium approached.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Lopez kind of had to go on the defense and be like, truly angels in America was not my inspiration for this. I love it. Obviously, I take inspiration from everything. He's like. But that was not what I was trying to pay homage to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think that the comparisons are inevitable and where. And it only just helps to kind of point where I think there are weaknesses in inheritance and why it wasn't maybe like, as massively embraced as angels. Because angels also came from, like, the bonkers mind of Kushner, who just, like, sure, didn't find a trope he didn't want to smash through with a hammer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. And he's also just so incredibly intelligent to the point that, like, I don't think I could ever sit down with him. I think that I would just be so intimidated and not be able to follow his train of thought.

[A]

Oh, he's super nice.

[B]

I'm sure he's super nice. But, like, I'll say one thing, and he'll be like, that's nice. And inside, he'll have, like, 9,000 reads on me.

[A]

I did the Caroline or Change album, and he was just one. And, you know, we had essays and stuff, and he was just one of the Carolina changed.

[B]

Talk about another one that just, like. Like, takes the walls and smashes them 100%. I think that. I think Lopez is a smart, passionate writer and could have used a bit more of that saltiness to maybe cut into some of the sweetness of the inheritance, because the inheritance is mostly just sweet. And it's so. It's that seven hours of just like Caramel.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, I do want to say the audio version of it, which is on audible for those of you who have subscriptions. I recommend it. It's only five and a half hours go off, and I don't know. Oh, probably because of intermissions and because there's not pauses for any kind of scene change. Although this was pretty seamless, the staging of it.

[B]

I mean, they might have. That production might have also tightened up moments that were lengthier. Broadway.

[A]

Yeah. There were Cantors on it, so recommended.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And. And it's also Tuck Watkins, right? Yeah, yeah. Key of Mrs. Andrew Randall's fame. But, yeah. I don't know. Where do you rate this play?

[A]

I think it's a very good play. Do I think it is one of the best plays of the last 20 years? No, but I think it's very good, especially for his Broadway debut, like, yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's.

[B]

It's. That's a big achievement to have, and.

[A]

I think that it will be studied for sure in colleges, etc. I don't know that we'll ever see it again.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

I also wonder if part of the failure was because a lot of it, a good chunk of it centered around the. The election, and we were already living in the trauma of that election and just didn't want to relive that night.

[B]

Yeah. True. It was a. It was a moment that everyone in the theater was like, oh, God, how long is the scene gonna last?

[A]

Truly? Because, like, when I know exactly where I was that night, I had. I was like, hillary's winning. I'm making chili. And did. And we had friends over and, like, as the returns were coming in, Len took to bed like he was Greta Garbo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I want to be alone.

[B]

I want to.

[A]

And just wept in the bed. And so I. There's that contingent as well.

[B]

Yeah. Which, again, we talked about with Slave Play. Like, there's. How much trauma can you put on stage and. And let an audience feel you have to cut them a break sometime? And you have to. I think there's. It's. What makes it so difficult to really gauge and why. Theatrical genius is rare, and we lost so many due to aids, but that combination of wanting to push an audience while also understanding that they are there for you, so you have to give them something to settle into before you then confront them with something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Angels used humor, brilliant theatricality and fire. Something like, let's say, A Chorus line in the 70s. Right. Taking things like homosexuality and race and using Broadway. Rasmuss has to settle in an audience before being like, hey, let's talk. Let's show some issues that are maybe not part of your Upper or East side domesticity.

[A]

I'm so happy that this play exists and that I saw the original production. I will not until the day I die. I will never forget the end of part one and the way that it wrecked me, where I was immobile in my seat afterwards after, like, they were literally, like, backing me around me. I'm like, I'm so sorry. Yeah. I haven't been so moved by something in the theater in a long time the way I was by that. And so I think it's a very good play.

[B]

Yeah. Having thoughts that are not necessarily 100% praise does not take away from the good things that we find in it.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

It's not quite a Toby Darling of a play where it's like, there are more things I don't like than, like. No, it's the reverse of that, but it's. There's. Yeah. I don't know. I don't. I don't consider this play problematic in terms of who it's talking about and how they talk about them.

[A]

No, I. I also don't find it problematic in the casting.

[B]

No. I've been very vocal about that. When it comes to sexuality with actors, like, if it's. If we truly believe sexuality is fluid, then we need to allow people who consider themselves straight to play bisexual or. Or queer and allow queer to play bisexual and straight because you learn more about yourself the more you take yourself out of your own norm.

[A]

Right. Let them find it in their own time.

[B]

And there have been cases of people playing roles and. And learning about themselves.

[A]

Caitlyn Kanina.

[B]

Yes, I brought her up many times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And other actors like Caitlyn.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That, you know, things start to click into place with their own sense of self and sexuality after the fact. Yeah. Right.

[A]

It's literally a ring of keys.

[B]

Yeah. Truly, truly, truly. Actually, I want to ask you this, speaking of fun. Home and sandals. And it's very good. What's up? What's a work, musical or play where you think. Did a good job of settling an audience in before giving them a confrontation?

[A]

The Light in the Piazza, I think, does a great job of establishing itself and everything in it before something happens, happens. Because like. Or maybe the Color Purple and the setup of the Color Purple, those first three songs that, like, really give you time, place, and you see Celie grow literally in real time before, like, oh, God, this is a terrible thing that's happening to this poor girl.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, and Ragtime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ragtime has that opening number that just.

[B]

It's just so epic.

[A]

Says, here's everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Another Terrence McNally. You know what I mean?

[B]

That's. Yeah.

[A]

Is that the question? Yeah, I guess in the question. Yeah, I guess most musicals do that.

[B]

Musicals. It's a little easier to settle in an audience because music is a chemical reaction. And, you know.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It'd be the food of love. I mean, play wise. I was trying to think of, you know, how I learned to drive, you know.

[A]

Oh, sure.

[B]

The opening of How I Learned to Drive is very awkwardly funny until you realize the relationship between the two characters in the car.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's when it sort of turns. And then Vogel is really good about keeping assault off the stage until the very end and just having conversations. And again, a lot of comedy in weird places. I know I brought this up with pillow man at one point. Maybe it was the slave play episode. I can't remember. But just the opening image of the pillow man. Katurian. Katurian, blindfolded in a dark interrogation room is already so unsettling.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then Jeff Goldblum coming in, taking the blindfold off me. Like, why did you keep this on? It's like, well, they brought me in here with it. He's like, yeah. And then they left you alone for 10 minutes. You weren't handcuffed. You could have taken this off at any time. Like, you just sat here alone with a blindfold. Blindfold on, unhandcuffed, you idiot. And, like, already the audience just goes, okay, so we're laughing.

[A]

Yeah, it's a comedy.

[B]

Yeah. Before then being like, here's six toes from a child.

[A]

But things are going great.

[B]

Things are going great. Speaking of McNally, I think Kiss with the spider woman does a really good job of kind of not necessarily settling you in, like, putting you on your toes before allowing you to breathe for a second and then going back to unsettling.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cabaret.

[A]

Settling you in before most of the Kander naps. Chicago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you see a murder committed in the opening number, but you caught singing, dancing, sexy people who are doing their hip twists before that happens.

[B]

Steel Pier's all like, hey, it's the 1940s. And we're dancing, and then act two, you're like, oh, they're ghosts.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, no, because Steel Pier opened with them dancing straight down to front and pouring sand out while they were all in white.

[B]

I'm also joking.

[A]

Listen, I know a lot about theater.

[B]

A show that comforts you and then confronts you with harsh realities. Spam a lot. Straight people.

[A]

Oh, maybe the rink, actually.

[B]

Yeah. Except I don't think the rink is any good. But that is a show that. That. That starts with soft and great song and then pummels you and then like.

[A]

Oh, don't I, mommy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, I was going into that end of Act 1 when Cheetah Rivera just gets fully raped.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Woof. Yeah. I. I wonder with the inheritance, because the. The Inheritance is a soft play, and I wonder if maybe some. Some slightly harder edges would help it in a way of making it palatable to more people.

[A]

I don't know that he's capable of writing like that just. Just from the inheritance and the screenplay of Red, White and royal Blue, which is also a soft screenplay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of just, like, it's almost a Hallmark movie.

[B]

Of it's cinematic sherbet for short.

[A]

I could go for some sherbet now. I'm hungry, but I have to sing.

[B]

I got. I've been hungry this entire time. Yes. Robbie's off to go single after this.

[A]

But you're not eating on the pot anymore, so.

[B]

No, because I got yelled at by everyone.

[A]

Well, your listeners are grateful.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I do have gum in my mouth, but I've been trying very hard not to chew it on. Mike, I've been.

[A]

I haven't watched you smack. Yeah.

[B]

So in terms of problematic, then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't. I mean, I don't think it's the umbrella term that people like to use, but, I mean, I think. Spoiler alert. I do think that's mostly how I've been feeling about all the plays we've covered, because I don't. I. I feel very few theatrical works are that. But it does have problems.

[A]

Sure. Yes. Yeah. There. There are places in the writing where you're just like, how come?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And again, like, the use of sex in the play, for me, I feel is a problem. Yeah. But is it a problematic play? No. Absolutely not.

[B]

No. No.

[A]

Definitively.

[B]

Definitively. So we've decided. Yeah. You okay?

[A]

No, my stomach just fully growled. Like, I was like, is the mic picking that up? Can't wait for this to show up.

[B]

I'm trying to think about anything else. We didn't really talk about Henry Wilcox and Walter about, like, sort of their generation, how they act. I mean, we talked about their actions in little bits and about their relationship. But, like, Henry is a character is so interesting to me because Henry, I feel like just sort of did whatever he needed to do to continue getting out of bed and living. And now that he's in such a place of comfort, it's, you know, that part of himself that felt anything got so numb over the years.

[A]

It's Roy Cone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's a less vicious Roy cone.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But still, like, I have all this money and access. I can do whatever I want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the way he even. I mean, again, speaking of sex, when Eric and Henry get engaged, Eric asks Henry if they can have sex. To which Henry says, that's not what I want from you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we're led to believe that Henry just isn't sexual. Then to find out that Henry has been.

[A]

Has a rent boy.

[B]

Has a rent boy. Leo and Eric basically figuring out that, like, to Henry, post Walter, sex was not something that you did with the person you loved. It was like, A scratch that needed to be itched. It was an itch that needs to be scratched. What the. I haven't eaten.

[A]

You're doing great.

[B]

Thank you. But again, to Eric, sex is, you know, a wonderful thing and a good thing, but he is one of the few characters that gets that experience in the play. As you were saying, you know, sex is. There is one thing about the show that is maybe problematic. It's just how often the relationship the play has to sex is negative. It's not all negative the entire time, but it is there. There's enough of it that it's. It's difficult to muster exactly what Lopez is.

[A]

If you have sex, you will bleed.

[B]

You will bleed. Or sex is something that you only do, you know, to get out of your system so you can go back to everything else you need to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's not, you know, an intimate, lovely thing. It's not a fun, weird thing. It's. It's that. It's that thing over there. But I wonder where do you think the play leaves Henry at the end? Because after everything has blown up with Eric and Eric gets the house and clearly part of Henry has softened, but has he really had any kind of major epiphanies at the end, do you think? No, no.

[A]

No. I think when you're that rich, you just keep living your life because they don't live together.

[B]

They don't.

[A]

And I just. Like, he and Walter spent months and sometimes longer apart because he wouldn't go to the house.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, you can't teach an old dog two tricks. Right. I think he is exactly who he was. Just because he showed up at somebody's 40th birthday party doesn't mean anything. It's. It's an empty gesture.

[B]

Yeah. I think they want us to think that there's harmony there. Harmony. But I don't know how much of it I actually buy. It's also. I'll make sure that we've been saying it is. It is Eric. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Eric Glass. They talk a lot about how Eric thinks of himself as unextraordinary. But the play itself wants to make clear that Eric is extraordinary. Do you think that Eric is extraordinary?

[A]

Extraordinary is a big word with. And so, no, I think he is wonderful because I value kindness and gentleness and a loving character more than a Toby darling, you know? But I don't think that makes you extraordinary. I think that makes you a good human.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting to compare Eric to Margaret in Howards End. Emma Thompson. If you will.

[A]

And I will.

[B]

And. And I will. But Margaret.

[A]

Nanny McPhee, you mean.

[B]

Hello, I am Nanny McPhee.

[A]

There it is.

[B]

Margaret in Howards End, you know, does pretty much every single thing that Eric does down to plot wise.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Margaret, you have. We have to remember early 1900s England, you know, middle class, probably like upper middle class.

[A]

Upper middle, yeah.

[B]

Comfortable. Not super elite, but comfortable.

[A]

But also about to lose her house.

[B]

Yes. And all. And a single woman of a sort of age living with her sister and younger brother. A character who is cut in the play, actually, I think is Toby. Actually, I think Toby's the name of the brother in Howards End. Yeah. But the character of Toby Darling in the Inheritance is a combination of Helen and whatever his face is. The one who dies.

[A]

Matthew said, fuck off.

[B]

Figure I'll never remember his name. Why can't I remember his name?

[A]

I love that you're flipping through a 300 plus page book.

[B]

I think his name is Teddy maybe not sure, sure.

[A]

Let's say Teddy.

[B]

Yeah, I'm like, I'm literally flipping through being like, if I see it, I'll know it. But I don't think that's actually gonna happen.

[A]

You know, Webster's Dictionary defines love as.

[B]

Gross, gross, gross, gross, gross, gross. But so, because a lot of things that Margaret does, she does because that is what you're supposed to do in society or that's what a woman is supposed to do. She accepts proposal from him, Henry Wilcox. She accepts that he had a mistress before her. She forgives him. There's a lot of stuff that Margaret allows herself to be railroaded over because that is just sort of what you're supposed to do. And because she genuinely is a kind person. Yes. But eventually there gets to be a point where she says enough. And that is sort of Forster kind of throwing the gauntlet down of like a lot of the things that we just have to put up with inside the are fucking stupid. Can we just say. And by the way, straight people, messy. And ultimately, because of the condition her sister is in, which is Helen gets pregnant out of Weddack, she. She throws her marriage to the wind and. And has her own mind that she listens to. Eric doesn't really do any of that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's sort of just, you know, he makes a final decision towards taking care of Leo. Not to the, you know, not as an ultimatum to Henry, but more just sort of, you know, eventually understanding that Henry is not who he wants him to be. Henry will never be who he wants him to be. Does that is. That. Is that an arc for Eric in any way, or is it just sort of Eric continuing on his merry way of goodness and kindness and, you know, making a bad decision, sticking with it for a little too long, and then walking. Walking away?

[A]

I feel like it's the. The latter.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Because Margaret has a true arc in Howard's End for us. I feel like Eric does not. You know, Toby has an arc. It ends in, you know, rock bottom, but it's an arc. Adam is a plot device. Leo is an interesting sort of outlier. And Henry kind. Everyone else, they're just sort of Henry. Eric kind of just, you know, they come to understandings, but nobody comes to, like, conclusions. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's okay. I think, like, oh, it's fine.

[B]

It's not necessarily a flaw. Something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, another reason why I feel like Howards End classic that it is, has a little more going for it than the inheritance.

[A]

Sure. It's. I mean, it's nice to see things not fully resolved because, again, like, life is messy.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And to tie it all up with a nice, happy bow, even though we see the. The 40th birthday and, oh, here's Henry with a gift. Like, here's Henry with a gift. Truly. I know it's true, but, like, okay, empty gesture and messy.

[B]

Yeah. And again, I think where. Unreal. I think. But I think where the air in the play comes from is characters. Eric. Eric and his friends sitting around like us talking about it ad nauseam as opposed to maybe just kind of letting the messy drama take over and letting that sort of run. Drive the car for a little bit longer before people can have their. Let's discuss this. Or if we're gonna discuss that, let's talk about it for a page, not five.

[A]

Sure. I do think that the listeners should know this is how we talk in life, truly, about everything.

[B]

Robbie and I saw each other last night for a hot second after I saw Doubt, and this is literally what it was. Minus the headphones and plus booze.

[A]

Yeah. There was a Manhattan. An Old Fashioned.

[B]

Old Fashioned for me. Manhattan for you.

[A]

Because I'm a grown up.

[B]

Yes. Last time I had old fashions with Rabi, though, I had too many and I got very sick.

[A]

Oh, that's. That's on you.

[B]

It is on me. I'm just so small. I'm so small.

[A]

I will end you. But, yeah, you're right. Like, we don't need five pages of dialogue. For sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But again, a Lot of it's those friends, and they're like tangential things on the side.

[B]

Well, because, you know, as Shakespeare said, brevity is the soul of wit. And as I said, but it may not be the soul of insight. And I think that Matthew Lopez is much more interested in insight than wit for the inheritance, which is fine. That's his cross to bear. And I think that there is a lot of insight, but I think where, as we were talking about earlier engagement, you start to lose audiences the longer you go on about it. And. And sometimes you just gotta cut to the quick with something like, there are no gay men my age.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Listen, if it were engaging the whole way, people would be holding it up like it was Streisand's memoir. Right. Which is three years long and it's all about food and hoarding. But, like, it is engaging and we're, like, wrapped up. Yeah, right. And there are lulls for sure of. And. And it's all mostly those asides and, like, long monologues when it could be trimmed.

[B]

Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. So with that in mind, let's come to our final thoughts on this. Final things. So we were kind of getting to this, and then we got sidetracked, because that's how we do.

[A]

This is how we talk again, listener.

[B]

Yeah, it's always like. It's like, let's wrap it up. Oh, but actually, one more thing.

[A]

We have so many strings dangling at.

[B]

All times, and there's so many things we didn't talk about, which is fine. It's such a long, long play. There's so much you could discuss and yet so much you don't need to discuss. Like there. If you read it, there are so many things you'll come across. You're like. That feels kind of treakly. Like the unpacking Toby's past through, like, the box of his stuff from his childhood. Things like that.

[A]

That.

[B]

Yeah, but there is.

[A]

But reading and seeing are two different things.

[B]

Yeah. Plays are meant to be seen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there for. Although I will say I was talking to someone when I told them we were covering this, he had said, oh, I read it. Wept. Then saw the Broadway production and was underwhelmed to which. And then I said, well, I saw the Broadway production, really enjoyed it. Read it was actually a little underwhelmed. So I think just. There's no winning. But plays are meant to be seen in general.

[A]

I think it's a mutual friend of ours.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Listen, everybody. Everybody consumes art differently, so there's that.

[B]

How do you consume art?

[A]

Well, mostly orally.

[B]

Jokes, Jokes, jokes, jokes. Yeah, No, I think that I agree with you. I think this is a play that we probably won't see on Broadway ever.

[A]

Again unless somewhere like Lincoln center picks it up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which honestly is what should have happened here.

[B]

Yeah. It should have been done at the Beaumont, I feel. And. But you know, maybe like transport group does it randomly for a week, you know.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah, sure, sure. Lot of. Lot of roles to have. Yeah. And I think there's a lot to discern from it. But there's, I think for a best play winner that had. That came into America on a wave of London praise, the Footprint for it has relatively been small.

[A]

I feel like Ryan Murphy picks up the screen rights to it and does something with it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And that's how it exists.

[B]

Or he just collects Matthew Lopez. Because Matthew Lopez is just doing all the TV now.

[A]

Right. Yeah. But like he. He just snaps up the film. Right. Yeah, right. And just makes it. And that's how we consume it.

[B]

Yeah. As.

[A]

And that's okay.

[B]

Yeah. That wouldn't be a terrible thing. It might. It might even flourish under that medium. That happens sometimes. Sometimes, you know, things that are, you know, good if not amazing, just come even more alive on screen.

[A]

The normal heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is a great example. Because that play is okay. The writing of the play.

[B]

The writing of the play is okay. If you have a great cast, it can be very compelling. But Larry Kramer was not a playwright and he will say so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Would say so.

[A]

Or. Well, but he tried.

[B]

He tried.

[A]

Yeah. But like the film version of it is very good.

[B]

Yes, it's. It's quite compelling. Yeah. I mean, I would say not to, you know, veer away from the gates. Death Amadeus, I think, is a solid B plus play that was turned into an A plus movie.

[A]

Well, it's soon gonna be a limited series.

[B]

Not on my lawn. Good day, Robbie. This has been delightful. Always. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[A]

Well, you can find me in the cellar 54 below on May 10th at 9:30.

[B]

I think this is gonna be out after that.

[A]

Oh, great. Guess what? You missed me. At 54 below you can find me. I'm Diva Robbie. On all platforms. I'm very findable. I have a semi hit album that's on Spotify.

[B]

Just a semi hit there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Perfectly streamable.

[A]

Please do enjoy.

[B]

If you want to find me, I'm at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice five star rating or review. We got two new ones to talk about today.

[A]

Should have brought a harp with me.

[B]

You should have. But it's okay. We'll just put in post the line of the Piazza Overture.

[A]

Cue it.

[B]

Now, back to back, five stars. Come, come on along and listen to the Lullaby of Koplik. All in caps. By the way, this podcast is informative and above all, fun. I often forget I'm listening to a podcast and I answer questions like I'm in the room with him. I especially love all of the guest speakers who always bring a great vantage point to the material. Until today, anyone who gushes about. Anyone who gushes about Kimberly Akimbo is a in my book. Thank you. And then the most recent one, which was this past Sunday, five stars. Good show.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

There's one more thing they write. Please give us a Hadestown episode. Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

[A]

Yeah, just listener, you're gonna have to stay subscribed.

[B]

Stay subscribed. Find out. Robbie what Bravadiva. Would you like to close us out today?

[A]

Oh, I've been thinking about this and I think. Carolee Carmelo.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Caroly Carmelo. Any particular CN Yeah, I think I.

[A]

Have found from the Infinite Joy album.

[B]

Sure, yeah, why not?

[A]

It's a good song.

[B]

It's a good song. Join us back next week for who the knows what. Either it's more problematic or it's a.

[A]

Could be Tony, Tony, Tony could be.

[B]

A Tony, Tony, Tony Updated episode. Some weeks will have passed since the last one, but until then. Yeah, just keep listening and. And we'll see you next week. Take it away, Carolee. Bye.