The Tony Awards Happened. Kinda. Let's Talk About It (w/ James Seol)

Summary

Broadway Breakdown Podcast Summary

Episode: The Tony Awards Happened. Kinda. Let's Talk About It

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: James Seol
Date: June 20, 2024

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Episode Overview

Matt Koplik, Broadway’s most opinionated theatre geek, and returning guest James Seol, break down the 2024 Tony Awards in their signature witty, unfiltered, and passionate style. Expect in-depth analysis, playful banter, and spicy opinions about the ceremony, the winners, performances, and the state of Broadway right now. Topics range from the meaning of awards themselves to the dirty details of the Tony telecast, the state of audience etiquette, and personal connections to some of this year’s buzziest shows.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Award Shows Don’t (Always) Matter

• Opener: Both hosts share their skepticism about awards as measures of artistic merit.
  • “I don’t care about award shows; they have nothing to do with art.” – James ([00:01])
  • “I write and sing and act to be a part of a community of people who value integrity. I don’t care about award shows.” – James ([00:06])
• Matt’s Approach: The podcast is more about critical thought and authentic discourse than being part of any Broadway PR machine.

2. Listener Engagement, Impact, and Podcast Philosophy

• Matt’s Reach: Increasing listener numbers and engagement; high praise for deep-dive, thoughtful episodes (e.g., Miss Saigon).
• Community: High-caliber, intelligent listener base attracted to nuanced, no-holds-barred discussion ([07:03], [19:03]).
• Notable Quote:
  • “Everyone who reaches out about it... the reviews have been so articulate, well written... I take pride in attracting intelligent listeners.” ([19:03])

3. The State of Broadway Audiences

• Etiquette Meltdown: Both decry worsening audience behavior – talking, phones, food wrappers, etc. ([12:51])
• Communal Experience: Emphasis on live theater’s irreplicable nature and the collective responsibility to preserve the magic ([14:05]).
  • “When you are in that audience, it is not about you. It is about the communal experience.” – Matt ([14:05])

4. How the Tony Awards Telecast Played Out

a. Watch Parties & Viewing Habits

• James: Watched at home with his fiancé (a Broadway non-fan studying for the bar)—heralds the “civilian” experience.
• Matt: Hosted a lively watch party inundated with Instagram Q&As from listeners ([06:18]).

b. The Tony Telecast Technical Issues & Pre-Show

• Pluto TV malfunction: Problems starting the pre-show ([48:18]), sound glitches, and issues with accessibility.
• **Controversy over who gets to present/perform and what the categories should be (more on projections, wigs, music direction, etc.) ([49:44], [50:06], [50:21]).

5. Critical Talk: The Major Categories & Shows

a. Best Musical – The Outsiders:

• Why Outsiders Won:
  • Not a runaway, but a sum-of-its-parts victory.
  • “Whole is greater than the sum of its parts” ([197:01]).
  • Outsiders is “serious, theatrical” and achieved more cohesion than suff’s better book/score ([32:52]).
  • Outsiders voter base praised the experience over individual elements.
  • “It’s just so theatrical... there is something very compelling.” – Matt ([195:43])

b. Suffs

• Won Best Score and Book; didn't convert to Best Musical (“good craft, not a great overall experience”; lyrics praised for their precision). Critical division among community and voters over the show’s execution and politics ([33:54], [174:13]).

c. Hell’s Kitchen

• Much-discussed, much-campaigned show. Matt is forthright: he actively dislikes the script but concedes Keisha Lewis’ performance was Tony-worthy ([21:06], [124:29]).
  • “After last night, I kind of fully hate that show now... solely the fault of Alicia Keys and the creative team.” ([21:06])
  • Alicia Keys’ self-promotional tactics and Tony performance (teaming with Jay-Z) generated major listener annoyance ([73:14], [74:29], [79:14]).
  • Performance described as “Everything but the Hell’s Kitchen sink” – Matt ([109:02])

d. Illinois

• Guest and host’s favorite of the season for its choreography and emotional wallop ([03:43], [145:05]).
  • “Predatory Wasp of the Palisades” number discussed at length as a core emotional highlight and representation of queer experience ([144:05]-[162:56]).
  • “As a song, it just fucking destroyed me... either you understand it, or you’re not gay.” – Matt ([11:19])

e. Stereophonic

• Praised for technical achievement (set, sound, direction), underdog-to-phenomenon trajectory, and dominance in play categories ([36:32], [46:58], [87:06]).
• “Stereophonic... homegrown phenomenon. Now it’s a hot ticket.” – Matt ([36:56])

f. Merrily We Roll Along

• Heavily lauded, but Matt challenges “overpraise”; acknowledges chemistry among leads, notes uneven elements and reasons Maria Friedman didn’t win direction ([130:05], [133:12]).

6. Standout Performances, Notable Wins, and Snubbed Shows

a. Performances

• Favorite: Illinois (see above – the power of movement and song).
• Least Favorite: Hell’s Kitchen; disliked Alicia Keys’ cameo/performance for self-promotion.
• Outsiders: Fight choreography sequence (the Rumble) was the best portion—“should have focused on that for Tony clip” ([166:01]).
• Cabaret: “Try-hard” production/number, divisive, exhausting staging, not universally beloved ([181:16], [182:54]).
• Suffs: Final number “Keep Marching” seen as the wrong choice; missed opportunity.
• Water for Elephants: Split responses—some loved the spectacle, others not taken by design ([141:47]).

b. Acting Awards

• Lead Actor, Play: Jeremy Strong for Enemy of the People (unexpected for some).
• Featured Actor, Play: Will Brill in Stereophonic—“true featured performance” ([103:23]).
• Featured Actress, Play: Kara Young (Pearly Victorious)—third consecutive nomination, finally won ([106:07]).
• Featured Actress, Musical: Keisha Lewis (Hell’s Kitchen)—sweeping gratitude and recognition for persistence in the business ([123:30], [125:47]).

7. Tony Telecast Critiques – Camera Work, Host, Bits

• Camera work: Generally panned for being confusing and distracting—“camera was FAR too close at times,” only served the performance in Illinois ([115:02], [164:01]).
• Ariana DeBose: Host received mixed-to-negative reviews for a self-focused, “gaslight-y” opening number ([90:40], [95:28]).
  • “The opening number was gaslighting because the lyrics were ‘it’s about you tonight,’ but the opening shot was a press clipping of Ariana DeBose is back as host.” – Matt ([95:28])

8. State of Broadway & Season Analysis

• No clear sweep: Love and awards were spread out; no show won more than 5 Tonys.
• Common refrain: Many shows seemed not “fully hatched” ([28:13]); a lot could have benefitted from more developmental time.
• Need for new categories: Proposals for Wig/Makeup, Projections, Music Direction, and Casting Direction to reflect modern theater practices ([49:44], [50:06]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“When you are in that audience, it is not about you. It is about the communal experience. ... And every candy wrapper you unwrap, every phone that goes off, every cough during a dramatic scene ... you are distracting from the seconds that you have paid hundreds of dollars for that you will never get back.”
– Matt (14:05)

“All your listeners are, you know, polite and proactive theater goers. I'm leaning into the positive here.”
– James (19:03)

“After last night, I kind of fully hate [Hell's Kitchen] now. ... solely the fault of Alicia Keys and the creative team.”
– Matt (21:06)

“‘Predatory Wasp of the Palisades’ ... as a song, it just fucking destroyed me. And when you watch it ... it’s just magic. The music is magic.”
– Matt (11:19), James (03:56)

“If you have the memory of certain hosts in your mind ... It is such a high bar. ... I miss the opening numbers that genuinely incorporated all the shows.”
– James (92:01)

“Illinois is… for me, the best number performance of this ceremony. ... [It] does what the best Tony performances do ... find a specific moment and really just expose as much of it as we can.”
– Matt ([163:11])

“Let us not undermine the achievement of a 16-year-old woman writing a classic that has endured for decades. If I could do one thing in my life at the age of 16 that lasted as long as that did for Essie Hinton, I’d be set.”
– Matt ([195:03])

On Chita Rivera Tribute:
“Just show us some of her best ... nothing any of you flops on that stage are going to do is going to touch.”
– Matt ([140:14])

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Chronological Guide: Important Segments

• Opening philosophy on awards & community: [00:01] – [08:59]
• Recap of last big podcast (Miss Saigon), listener feedback: [01:07] – [02:43]
• Listener engagement & critical thinking priorities: [06:08] – [09:18]
• Audience etiquette rant (must-listen for theater fans): [12:51] – [15:30]
• Illinois & ‘Predatory Wasp’ explanation: [144:05] – [162:56]
• Critique of Tony telecast, camera, opening number: [90:16], [94:16]
• Discussion of Alicia Keys, Hell’s Kitchen and Tony campaigning: [73:14] – [79:14]
• Major awards, speeches, analysis: [100:31] – [118:33]
• Discussion of Tony performances & medley philosophy: [81:13] – [84:51]
• Why Outsiders won Best Musical: [194:07] – [202:49]
• Closing remarks, future of Broadway: [204:47] – [211:44]

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Tone & Style

• Profane, irreverent, but deeply knowledgeable and affectionate for the art form.
• High-level analysis mixed with first-person anecdotes and inside-baseball theater banter.
• Heavy use of sarcasm, “insider” lingo, and direct call-outs to Broadway insiders.

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For New Listeners / Those Who Missed the Show

• Expect a passionate, critical review—not a bland recap.
• This episode is for true theater fans: plenty of play-by-play gossip, context for Tony voting decisions, advice for both audiences and theater-makers.
• If you want to understand why certain shows/performers won (or lost), or why some Tony performances are more iconic/memorable, this episode is essential.
• Want to know why people are crying about “Predatory Wasp,” what’s wrong with audience behavior, or why Alicia Keys gets Matt’s goat? It’s all here, timestamped and unfiltered.

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Transcript

[James Soule]

I don't care about award shows they.

[Matt Koplik]

Have nothing to do with art.

[James Soule]

I'm so sorry. I don't need to beg for some acclaim to desperately build my fame I write and sing and act to be a part of a community of people.

[Matt Koplik]

Who value integrity I don't care about award shows. Hello, all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Break, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. We are covering this year's 2024 Tony Awards, and I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is an alum of the pod. Friend of the pod. You know him. I know you don't love him, but, like, yeah. To quote sorry, to paraphrase from Omar, everybody knows James. Nobody likes her, but everybody knows her. Please welcome back James Soule.

[James Soule]

Hi.

[Matt Koplik]

Hi, James.

[James Soule]

Very happy to be here.

[Matt Koplik]

Very happy to have you back. How have you been since the world exploded with your Miss Igon episode?

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh, amazing. You know, people recognize me on the street.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I do get a lot of feedback from people about that episode.

[James Soule]

I'm really happy to hear that, because, first of all, it's a commitment when you start listening to it, because what did it. What was the total time that it ended up being?

[Matt Koplik]

I think, just under three and a half. And I. Three and a half hours, and I cut a full hour out.

[James Soule]

There was a lot to discuss with that particular show.

[Matt Koplik]

There sure was. But some of the reviews after that episode came out specifically mentioned the Miss Saigon episode of, like, if you're gonna listen to this podcast, listen to this episode.

[James Soule]

I think you forwarded me a couple, and they were both or they both alluded to this idea that, like, oh, I've never thought of that before. And I guess, you know, the average theater and doesn't think about some of the things that perhaps someone who identifies as Aapi probably thinks about that show.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, listen, I'm not saying that I'm the voice of multiple generations, but I do want this narrative out there that Kim's suicide at the end should be known as Kim's chess move. I've had people send me that as a hashtag, and I. If I have one legacy, it is that the one thing I want on a cool cause I want on a coffee mug. The only person who can kill Kim is Kim.

[James Soule]

That's. That's good Broadway merch idea.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[James Soule]

That's good Broadway merch idea.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's make it send it to Eva Noplazada and Lea Salonga.

[James Soule]

That's just subversive enough.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And you have to be in the know to get it. I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

The only person who can kill Kim is Kim. But, James, we're here to talk about the Tony Awards.

[James Soule]

Yay.

[Matt Koplik]

They happened.

[James Soule]

Yes, they sure did.

[Matt Koplik]

Where did you watch them?

[James Soule]

I watched them at home. I forced my fiance to watch them with me.

[Matt Koplik]

Gross. Does he care for theater?

[James Soule]

No, not really. I take him to a lot of things. In fact, before we were together, I think maybe two or three things he'd ever seen on Broadway prior to our relationship. So I drag him to a lot of things. He was also prepping for his bar exam that he's gonna be taking in a couple months.

[Matt Koplik]

So he's a real person.

[James Soule]

He's a real person. A civilian. So he was doing that while sort of in and out watching the Tonys last night.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure. Did he have any stakes in the game? Any skin in the game? No.

[James Soule]

Although, when the Illinois number came up, I was like, you have to watch this. Because I had just seen it.

[Matt Koplik]

Mm.

[James Soule]

And I loved it. And invariably, I started crying during the number.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's predatory wasp.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because that's the song.

[James Soule]

Yes. Right. Yes. It pulls at the. I don't know what it does. It's just magic. The music is magic. So it just immediately goes right to the.

[Matt Koplik]

I will.

[James Soule]

Solar plexus.

[Matt Koplik]

I have to do a talk about it at some point today when we. When we do this, because I posted on my story about how either you understand predatory wasp of the Palisades is out to get us, or you're not gay. And somebody wrote in. So I also had people on Instagram, I said, you know, write in your responses to the. To the ceremony and blah, blah, blah. And I said, we'll try to read as many as we can. Now, full disclosure, y'.

[James Soule]

All.

[Matt Koplik]

And we'll get back to James telling us about his very exciting Tony viewing experience.

[James Soule]

But thrilling.

[Matt Koplik]

Thrilling. Thrilling. But similar to when the nominations came out, y' all broke my NGL app and just sent in over 200 messages.

[James Soule]

Just off that story.

[Matt Koplik]

Just off of that story. Yeah. Incredibly famous. I am. Thank you for asking.

[James Soule]

I mean, yes, you are.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes, yes. Well, I. I won't say who, but somebody who I had never met or spoken to in the community reached out to me the other day after finding my post on Instagram about the Tony nominations and categories that don't exist yet.

[James Soule]

A famous person.

[Matt Koplik]

Not famous.

[James Soule]

But like Broadway famous.

[Matt Koplik]

They. They work on Broadway. And they, they are. They have a footprint. Not an actor, but they have a footprint. And they reached out to me and they said, you know, I listened to your podcast. I think it's great. Blah, blah, and all this stuff. And he goes, you know, from the things you talk about on the podcast, I think it's important that, you know, you are more well known in this community and more well liked in this community than you realize. Which.

[James Soule]

What a lovely compliment.

[Matt Koplik]

What a lovely lie. I was writing. I don't think it's true, but he, but he, I. He wrote it and I read it and I felt very good about myself for a minute. And then I came back home and had my mom say many things to me that notched down my self confidence.

[James Soule]

Brought you down to reality or a certain kind of reality.

[Matt Koplik]

She said, why does your hair look like that? Why are you wearing that shirt combo? Thanks, mom. But thanks, mom. No, she, she's great. She doesn't really do that often, but.

[James Soule]

I think this medium is so difficult to tell often. The podcasts, meaning podcasts. Like, how do you tell, Like, I mean, I guess you can have certain numbers. Right. About listenership and things like that. Yeah, but.

[Matt Koplik]

And my listenership keeps going up each couple of months with each new series that I do, which is great. And with Instagram, I hate that it's. I'm kind of reliant on it these days just to get the word out, but sometimes I'll have a post that does really well, which gets people to the profile, which gets people to the podcast. And so it's always like every year we get a little bit bigger and we're still not like huge.

[James Soule]

But for what's a huge podcast, I mean. Well, no, not related to theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I was gonna say. Cause, like, we're never gonna get to armchair expert level. But for a Broadway podcast, I do think we're sort of up there, but I don't. I don't know. I'm not. What are really famous Broadway podcasts?

[James Soule]

That. That's a, that's something to ponder, definitely. But the thing is about yours, what I love about it is, and I mentioned this with the Miss Saigon episode too, that every episode is a commitment and not just with time, but I mean, there's such specific things that are discussed, even when the, when you have just a solo episode. And I think that's good. I think we need. That's. There's space for that. Yeah, I mean, it's not just a space where you where it's not puff pieces about shows. It's not, it's not. You're not part of the promotional machine for Broadway shows like it. Actually, there's a lot of critical thinking that happens here. There's a lot of discernment and taste that I think is shared.

[Matt Koplik]

Well done.

[James Soule]

I appreciate it for all that.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you, Shishi. But I think also you don't have to agree with anything that I say or anything that you say. But I just think the idea of critical thinking is important. And I know that now from some of the messages I got. Because I can imagine once again every lot of messages sent in, some of them really wonderful. Some of them I will just flat out say like kind of QAnon theory explanations of why certain wins happened. I have to say the majority of Tony voters now do not think about what is the most commercial thing to vote for. They don't think this is an open ended run. This is a limited run, let's vote for it. Sometimes they do that with something like maybe best musical. I said, sure. You know, for example, Illinois, one of the things that had going against it was that it's closing in the summer. That's like it's got a hard out. Whereas everything else in that category doesn't. But that doesn't affect performances. That doesn't affect design or direction. Sure. What that's more affected by shows that have already closed. And it doesn't affect plays that much. It affects musicals more. We've got another year where if you were in a closed musical and you were nominated as a performer, you did not win.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That hasn't happened since 1999. And there's always circumstances for these things happening or not happening. But people wrote in a couple of things where I was like that. I'm sorry, thank you so much for listening and for writing in. But that's a dumb theory that you just wrote. And I say that just because like this is. This is such a niche thing to love and be passionate about.

[James Soule]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

And if we're gonna make a case for it to other people, we have to be smart. We can't. We can't afford to be dumb. Viewership was down 14% this year. Like, how about we make exciting things that excite people? That's not pandering, that's not stupid. That doesn't have world famous artists at the tail end of the performance trying to sell tickets, even though those world famous artists are not in the show at doing it eight times a week. Just fucking saying. Because it doesn't matter in the end. Sell to the fucking nerds and sell it to them with intelligence and craft. This is all to say, I will not be able to read all of your messages, guys, because when I did this last time, it was a nearly three hour episode and I still missed messages because NGL cut off at one point. I did open every single message. I read every single message. I have them absorbed. I will refer to some of them. At one point, one of you asked me to give a shout out to you, but you didn't say what your name was. So I'm just saying here's your shout out. Another one of you asked, would I ever get with you or date you? And I said no, because I don't know who you are.

[James Soule]

So you must get those, you must get your fair share of those of the thirst messages. Yeah, when. Yeah, when it's a. When it's an anonymous.

[Matt Koplik]

When it's the Q and A Anonymous, I get a good number of like, oh my God, I have a crush on you. Can we go out? And I'm like, what am I supposed to do with that? I don't know who you are.

[James Soule]

It's just meant to be a nice ego boost.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And also like, of course, of course we can't go out. If you listen to the podcast, you know that I'm emotionally broken. We're finally starting theme and all. The thing about the Tonys, there were good segue. Yeah, yeah. You were watching Illinois, but somebody, somebody asked in the message, in the message app, they said, I'm straight. Can you explain the Illinois performance to me? So we're gonna have to do that. Oh, yeah, I'm gonna have to do.

[James Soule]

A whole speech that, that's a value add of this podcast. Yeah. Episode.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, do that. I think what it is for me is it's explaining why the predatory wasp of the Palisades is out to get us has impacted me so much.

[James Soule]

Oh, I want to hear that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as a song, it just fucking destroyed me. And when you watch it on the telecast, it's obviously, it's a shortened version. That song is six minutes long and I think it's four minutes on the telecast. So things got cut. But just listen to it anyway.

[James Soule]

Well, I think part of the reason that I was so moved was knowing that context and I didn't spoil it for, for my fiance.

[Matt Koplik]

I was, I said, what's his name? Say his name.

[James Soule]

Zack. So I didn't spoil it for Zach, but I was obviously very. I was very moved, very Affected by it. I started tearing up and I said, we're gonna wait. We're gonna wait until the two of us can see it together. Because I went on a solo date not knowing really anything about it other than it was a dance piece. There was music in it, obviously. Sufi and Stevens music. And bald through 80% of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Once we got to the gay story, I was a mess. I've mentioned this on the pod already. I did not know Sufjan's other work. I only knew the Call Me by youy Name stuff because I am basic and I'm terrible at music. Outside of theater, all of my friends, their job.

[James Soule]

That's okay. You have a theater podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

I do. But, like, I want to know more about other things. And the more you learn, the more sharpened your senses and your insights get. And so my friends, their job is to inform me of, like, who's hot? What's a deep dive, Shit like that. So I saw Illinois, and except for the tween girls in front of me, who I just wanted to throw over the mezzanine, it was a very pleasant experience. They were just talking to each other the entire time.

[James Soule]

The entire time?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It was six of them. And then their moms were in the row in front of them. Okay.

[James Soule]

Audiences are only getting worse and worse.

[Matt Koplik]

They really are.

[James Soule]

It's. I'm infuriating the amount of candy wrappers now that I guess because they sell stuff in the lobbies and they let you eat it in the theater now people don't care, and it just makes all this noise. Yeah, this is very like shaking my fist. Get off my lawn, old old man.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, what it is, is really annoying. I. I want to do a thing about this on Instagram at some point. Whether I write it out or just do a video, I can't tell. But my main gist is that the ticket you purchase is expensive for just everyone. And part of the reason why it is expensive is capitalism. It costs a lot to run a show. And also, like, the more popular the show is, the more producers can get away with charging tickets because it's exclusive. But that's one part of it. The other thing you're paying for is having an experience that isn't going to be replicated.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, the show is going to get performed again tomorrow, but everyone in that audience is going to be different, and they're bringing a different energy because everyone's having a different day. The cast might have a different day. Someone will be out, something might go wrong. Someone might have a flub Someone might be in better vocal health on Wednesday than they were on Tuesday.

[James Soule]

The day unique experience every time.

[Matt Koplik]

The day Jonathan Groff had on Thursday will be different than the day he had on Friday, and that will affect his Franklin Shepard. And that's something to think about. So you are paying for every second you're there. That will never be replicated. And you want to just be as taken away in this moment as you possibly can. Transported, truly transported. And the reason why many of you might be rolling your eyes at me when I say that is because you haven't gotten that from a Broadway show. Part of it is because maybe the show wasn't terribly good, but also because audiences are not allowing you to do that when you are in that audience. It is not about you. It is about the communal experience. It is so special to be in a room with 900 strangers who all have either a collective reaction to something or different reactions to something. And every candy wrapper you unwrap, every phone that goes off, every cough during a dramatic scene, anytime you stop to talk to your person, you are distracting from the seconds that you have paid hundreds of dollars for that you will never get back. The seconds you will never get back.

[James Soule]

And distracting other people. And I don't think it's a small thing. Meaning if there's someone literally right next to you opening up a candy wrapper or talking, it actually takes the people around in the immediate radius of people out of it. And so they're not paying 100% attention to what's happening on the stage. It's. It's being dispersed.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[James Soule]

The energy is being diluted and. Or the attention is being diluted. And it's really, really unfortunate. I hate it so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And people. And there's been some good shit this year.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe not all with the musicals, but there's been good shit. And audiences are not allowing themselves to get wrapped up in it. They want it.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

They want their own comfort. They want it to be about them. I mentioned this when I had Susan Porphyr on the podcast, that the night I saw Mary Jane, someone, during an early scene in Susan's first scene, just did a very light. I love you, Rachel McAdams. And the entire audience got angry. What the good thing about that moment was. And. But this is another example of, like, no night is the same, because that. That never happened again at Mary Jane, as far as I know. But that ended up being a positive thing because the entire audience sort of collectively went, we will not let that ruin this. We are now going to pay attention harder.

[James Soule]

So everyone leaned in.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Not a single cell phone went off. Not a single very little coughing. Yeah, I didn't hear any candy wrappers. No one was speaking. But, like, it was in the first 30 minutes and everyone was like, pretty on board. But, like, you know, there was some wrestling, whatever. And then that. Then that happened and everyone. Fuck that asshole. Yeah, like now, now I'm going to come. We got to commit to this committing.

[James Soule]

And we're all collectively fighting against whatever that dude did.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly.

[James Soule]

That's great.

[Matt Koplik]

I love it.

[James Soule]

That's great. Yeah, that also, you know, this might eventually be all cut out of this episode because we haven't really talked about the Tonys yet. But the other thing that I will add about this is you mentioned ticket prices. So it's this entitlement of what this ticket price gets me now. So it gets me, you know, state, like at the stage door, you have to talk to me. You have to sign my things or whatever. And then in the room, in the audio, in the theater itself, it gets me like, well, this is my living room, so I can treat it like my living room. So I'm gonna snack, I'm gonna drink, I'm gonna make whatever noises I need to make as if it's just me.

[Matt Koplik]

Watching tv, which I don't understand because now it's less special. Now you've paid $250 to be in your living room. You could have just been in your living room and not paid the $250.

[James Soule]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, somebody make that make sense to me.

[James Soule]

Makes zero sense. It doesn't make any sense.

[Matt Koplik]

So there are people. One of the things that people have written out in my messages was like to bring it back to the Tonys and then get away from the Tonys. They're like, make it make sense. How can a show when best score and best book and not best musical, I'm like, we've been here before. This has happened. This has happened before for.

[James Soule]

Right and I.

[Matt Koplik]

And we'll talk about it in a second. But, like, I can make that make sense to you. What I can make make sense to you is the idea of coming to a show that you've paid $390 for for a center orchestra seat that you're never going to see again. Especially with this cast, with this audience, it can't be replicated. And you bring your curry chicken from the takeout Ollie's, you kick off your shoes, you forget to turn off your phone, and I go, you could have Gone to the movies for 22 bucks, you could have gotten takeout and rented something or just watched something on Netflix and you would have saved half of your rent. Why this? I don't get it. Either you are bad with money. Been there, done that. But I learned. I'm a dumb. Dumb in other ways, but I've learned to be better with my money. But either you're bad with money, you're an idiot, or you're an asshole. Which of the three is it because.

[James Soule]

Or multiple things can be true once.

[Matt Koplik]

If you're bad with money, I can teach you. I'm not great with numbers, but every other cousin and sibling that I have is good with numbers and they taught me. Are you an idiot? I have books I can lend you. Are you an asshole? I've got a right hand. Let me slap you with it. There are ways to improve. Just tell me which of the doors to open, you stupid bitch. Just tell me. I would love to know.

[James Soule]

I'm gonna assume all of this is a moot point for your listeners, though, specifically because all your listeners are, you know, polite and proactive theater goers. I'm leaning into the positive here.

[Matt Koplik]

To quote Barrett, Wilbert, Weed and Heathers, you hope, you dream, you pray. But so Christ.

[James Soule]

I don't mind this tangent. I'll be honest.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. I can't tell of everyone who writes in. In on Instagram in These Q&As or anonymous NGLs, whatever, if all of them listen to the podcast or not, because I will say the one thing I'm very proud of with this podcast is everyone who reaches out about it, who writes reviews, and I have a review I got to read at one point. They are. They. The reviews have been so articulate, well written. I sent one to my mom when we got back from London, and she was just, like, thrilled by it. And I went, you know, I don't think that it's because of me, but I do take pride in attracting intelligent listeners. Yeah, I don't think that makes me intelligent, but it's nice to know that these intelligent people choose to listen.

[James Soule]

And maybe it's more the kind of discourse that you allow for in your specific podcast space. I think that's maybe what attracts listeners who have discerning tastes and listeners who can articulate the whys of whatever their specific opinions are.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, and I'm not perfect. I definitely have been guilty of ranting in a twaty mood on this podcast about certain shows that I.

[James Soule]

Well, you have a lot of episodes, so inevitably that's going to happen.

[Matt Koplik]

We're not going to talk about Mother Play too much. It went home empty handed. There are some shows that I did not care for this year. There's one. Okay. I'll put it this way. We all know I do not like Hell's Kitchen. I do think that script is objectively terrible, but I don't. I did not fully hate it. There were things about it I could go, that was good. Keisha Lewis, for example, after last night, I kind of fully hate that show now. And it's not the. It's not the fault of any of the performers. It is solely the fault. It rarely is rarely in a lot.

[James Soule]

Of rarely in musicals that aren't maybe as well crafted or well made.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

It's interesting how much a good performance can perhaps plug some of those holes up.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, plug it up. Okay. Speaking of plugging holes up. Saw Titanic at Encores recently. Talk about a situation where I'm going next week. Okay. I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Talk about a situation where, like, great cast. There are people who maybe don't make as big an impression as others, but it's not their fault. There are just some roles in that musical where you go, why is this part here? They have no arc. There's nothing going on.

[James Soule]

Inevitably, there's like 30 principles.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's trying to be. It's trying to be Grand Hotel on the Titanic. Speaking of Maury Eston. And it just doesn't work. The music is glorious. The script, I think it doesn't blow. You're just sort of like you're waiting for the next song.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And when the ship goes down. I do not cry when the ship goes down. Because I'm like, I don't really know anything about any of you.

[James Soule]

It's too much. Too many people to try to attach to as an audience. There's no way.

[Matt Koplik]

Too many notes. There's too many notes.

[James Soule]

But I'm excited for the score specifically.

[Matt Koplik]

Musically, you can't beat what they're doing there. First of all, it's a larger orchestra this time around than in the 90s and everyone sounds good. Yeah, Yeah. I.

[James Soule]

And the cast, even for these smaller roles.

[Matt Koplik]

No, they did not. Scamp. Yeah. They did not skimp. I will say it took me until the end of Bonnie Milligan's First Class passenger roster to finally let go of certain things. Because Vicky Clark's rendition of First Class Passenger Roster is one of my go to lip syncs, which I know is niche. I love that. I know it's Onish. But I know every single inflection that bitch does because it's perfect. What she does is perfect. It's iconic.

[James Soule]

It is.

[Matt Koplik]

And so you know what you can.

[James Soule]

Hear in her voice even on the recording, is the yearning.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you know what?

[James Soule]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

No one really knows who she is, but the newspaper said she booked the most expensive suite on the ship and travels to the 14th seam where trunks, a medicine chest, her personal pill. Fuck, I messed up. Personal pillows. And she sent four little Pekingese dogs. So she must be somebody. She must be somebody.

[James Soule]

I can hear it. I can hear that. It's Kerry Clark in there.

[Matt Koplik]

And so I was watching Bonnie, who does a more like tempered version of it. Like her Alice Bean isn't as flighty as Vicki's was. And so I had to be like. And she like sings it sings in war. She doesn't do all the talk singing that Vicky does.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

She also does in two Vicky's.

[James Soule]

They have two different voices.

[Matt Koplik]

And I know, but it took it like I had to finally, like let go of the Vicky in my bones because I just have like that. And that's his wife of 40 years named Ida. Sad. She hasn't been well.

[James Soule]

I get that. I get that. Recordings that you attach yourself to. And so it's impossible, almost impossible to disconnect that particular voice from that set of lyrics or melody or whatever I've talked about. Totally understand that.

[Matt Koplik]

I've talked about this on the podcast before. I used to take voice lessons with Victoria Mallory, my second half of college. She was the original Anne in A Little Night Music. And when you do voice lessons, you know, you do scales and you whatever. And when you're in between that, you just talk to kind of keep the voice warm without over taxing it. And so many times it'd be like, vicki, do that line. She goes, what line? Like the line in now when you're talking while Frederick was singing.

[James Soule]

I think I heard you talk about that.

[Matt Koplik]

And she goes like. She's like, okay, what line do you want? I was like, say, oh, Frederick, what a day. It's been unending drama. And she goes, fine, she does that. I'm like, no, do it like you did on the recording.

[James Soule]

But she's not going to remember it. You remember it obviously more than she would.

[Matt Koplik]

So the one I remember the most. And eventually she learned how to say it because I kept asking for it and I had to coach her how she says it on the recording, which was. But. But then French is much chica language. Everyone Says so par les vous francais. And I had to coach Victoria Mallory how she did it and she did it. And that was. That was a wonderful moment in my life.

[James Soule]

I love that so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Such a control freak.

[James Soule]

I love that so much. The theater nerd in me loves that.

[Matt Koplik]

So the Tony Awards, the. You watched the whole ceremony?

[James Soule]

I did. And I mentioned to you before we started recording that I jotted down some notes.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure, sure. Also, did you have any skin in the game? Was there anything you were particularly rooting for this year?

[James Soule]

No. Okay, full disclosure. I also haven't seen everything from this season. I've seen maybe 45% of the things that. That opened.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. So you saw 72 shows.

[James Soule]

So therefore a lot. So some of these things. There will be some shows where obviously I have no. There's no reason for me to speak on them because I didn't get to experience them. But that being said, I did. I mean, we already spoke about Illinois. I mean, I think that was my favorite thing this season of all the things of the things that I saw. I mean, you know, I was a big fan of Mary Jane as well. I thought it's a perfect, perfect play and it was really beautifully executed.

[Matt Koplik]

Speaking of Titanic and Kaufman.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I also, I also want to say, by the way, Bonnie Milligan is fantastic in Titanic. I'm just saying I had to let go of what I've known for 20 years.

[James Soule]

Oh my gosh. Your listeners would understand that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I need to say it out loud.

[James Soule]

Okay, fair. Yeah. You don't need to say. You don't want to be misinterpreted.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I don't want anyone to think that I have anything negative to say about Bonnie Milligan. I. That would kill me. She's wonderful. In took three minutes for me to let go of Vicki's interpretation.

[James Soule]

That makes perfect, perfect sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Fantastic. No one really knows who she is. So.

[James Soule]

So I. I will say this. I was also very sad that Harder Rock and Roll didn't get any. Anything really.

[Matt Koplik]

At least a book. 0 should have gotten a book nomination.

[James Soule]

At least a book nomination.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I thought the book for that show was the funniest of the season. And honestly the one of the more well crafted books.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, this was a bad year for librettos. I'm just gonna outright say that.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

I found Heart of Rock and Rolls Libretto to be the best of any of those nominees this year, 100%. And I've been open that I enjoy Outsiders. I enjoyed stuffs more than I thought I would, but I actually do think that the book is. Is bumpy and I. I'm proud of Shayna for her two wins, but I was like, like if I had to give her one, it would be score because the book of stuff needs like another pass.

[James Soule]

But yeah, there's another recurring theme I feel like, and I think this has come up in past episodes of your podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

He LISTENS, everyone.

[James Soule]

I do feel like of some of the musicals that I saw that there was a. They could have all used a little bit more time somewhere else.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Before having to come in. And I know the equation for a show coming in is so complicated. It's a calculus of available real estate and all that stuff. But that, that felt like a. A very consistent theme that was coming up.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. A lot of. A lot of shows coming in before they were totally hatched.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Yeah, we'll get it maybe another six months to a year of some.

[Matt Koplik]

And time is money. And you take the theater when you can get it. There's. There's, There are reasons for. For these things coming to Broadway when.

[James Soule]

They do, but like actual practical realities. I totally get that.

[Matt Koplik]

I totally get it. I think because there were a couple of shows where I was like, oh, this is really close to being complete. And then other than other shows where I was like, oh, this needs like two more workshops and an out of town tryout. But alas, shows happen if we can.

[James Soule]

Sort of organically get there. I still. I would love to hear all that from you too.

[Matt Koplik]

But so, yes, you watch the whole thing. You only saw 45% of the show. Of the shows this year.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So no real skin in the game.

[James Soule]

I. No, not really.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

This was a season. I think this is true for a lot of people where it was really. There were so many camps of. There's so many things that opened particularly in the last couple months. And so there, There wasn't like one front runner that everyone was rooting for. So I think all the. The audience generally was very scattered or not. Is that the right word? Disparate. Like they were all like, this is team this musical. This is team this musical. This is team this play. This is team this performer. So I feel like there was. It was stretched thinner.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No, there was definitely a spread out of the love of the. Of the winners. And that's actually been true of the last three years. We haven't had a true, like sweep. Sweep since Band's visit. And I feel like that was more of a political statement from the Tony Awards. Is that right?

[James Soule]

What year was Band's Visit that was.

[Matt Koplik]

2018 because band's visit I think ended up with. With 10.

[James Soule]

We've.

[Matt Koplik]

And because I don't totally count the COVID gas leak year just in terms of like not in terms of the people who actually won but just in terms of trends because that was. You can't really look at that as trends for anything. But in the last. So this is 2024. So since 2010 we have only had I think two musicals win double digit amount of Tony Awards. And that was Hamilton and the band's visit.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

10 and 11, I'm pretty sure because I think Book of Mormon won nine and once won eight.

[James Soule]

Does it have to be that extreme? Well, okay, I. I think Mormon and once. I mean. Or would be the. Would I guess those would be like the medium ones if they're not a Hamilton.

[Matt Koplik]

I think. I think nine and higher is. Is a nice clean sweep. I consider five to eight a very strong like powerful showing. So like a Hadestown, a Kimberly Akimbo a fun home where it's like you should be very proud of the number.

[James Soule]

Of Tonys because that was not this season at all. Right. Even a five to eight for one show.

[Matt Koplik]

The only show that got five and someone actually wrote in on this saying that the last three years the most Tonys a show has won in the last three ceremonies has only been five. This year it was stereophonic with five. Last year was Kimberly Akimbo with five and the year before that was the company revival with five.

[James Soule]

Got it. Yeah, got it. Kimberly Akimbo. Kimberly Akimbo McCarthy makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, absolutely. But there are some. Again, there are some years where because of the. Just the. The nominations that we have. There isn't always a musical where you're like, you know what? So well written, so well done acting, great direction, great. Like let's give it score, book, musical and a performance or two or even a direction because sometimes it's. We really liked this show. The impact was great. But like we'll admit the score is not as good as the score for this other show. But that show has a great score and a terrible book. So like we're like. Or so an example being let's say the Euro Gentleman's Guide winning musical direction and book but not score Bridges. Winning score Bridges was a case of we all enjoyed this show. It has closed now. We're not going to honor Kelly but we're like we're going to admit it. This score is beautiful and is definitely. Yeah. And is. And like a far above the rest of our nominations in this category. So, like, we're not going to not give it to Bridges, but we're also not going to have that deter us from voting for Gentleman's Guide, which was an overall more enjoyable, like, compact production for us. So with something like, say, Outsiders winning over Suffs, I do feel like the wins for suffs of score and book, in its way, were voters going, you know what? This was probably the score I liked the most. I maybe liked Stereophonic more, but I can't bring myself to vote for a play right now. And the suff score, I said this before. I said this, I think when I either reviewed it or when I did my rankings. The suff score is the only score this year that's, like, actually a musical theater score.

[James Soule]

Sure. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Outsider. Outsider score is a little more atmospheric and it's. The lyrics are simple, but that's sort of on the point. Notebook is very, like, sweeping music, but the lyrics are kind of duds. Water for Elephants is truly just water. It kind of washes over you and you forget about it.

[James Soule]

That one feels a little bit more atmosphere, too. I haven't seen Water for Elephants.

[Matt Koplik]

Water for Elephants.

[James Soule]

I do want to see it. Based on the performance last night on.

[Matt Koplik]

The Tonys, I thought it was a solid performance.

[James Soule]

And it does feel more in the outsiders vein than, say, in the Suffs vein.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, it is. They're both more atmospheric songs. Although I find outsiders music to be a little more exciting than Water for Elephants music. Suffs, I do think, for all of its problems, has really good music. I had one person who wrote in who disagrees with that, but I do think the music and stuff is good. It's also the only score this year I'm pretty sure that has exact rhymes in it, if not the entire time, like, 95% of the time, which is rare these days. And I'm sure there are a lot of writers in that voting pool that was like, thank God. Like, maybe I don't love this score, but Shayna is trying to do, like, the musical theater craft.

[James Soule]

Yes, Right. But precision.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. But ultimately going, even though I like the writing and I like Shayna, because Shayna is a very lovely person ultimately going, I can't vote for the show. There are too many things about the production, about the vision, about how it all comes together where it just doesn't totally work for me. Whereas Outsiders. Yeah, you know, like, maybe it's my second choice for score after Suffs. Maybe it's my second choice for book after Suffs, but I Can't deny that the overall product really got me.

[James Soule]

Right. The overall experience of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which is how Danya ended up winning. Right. And I'll talk about that as well, because a lot of people had opinions about Danya winning. Basically, we got two camps. We got one camp going. Maria was robbed and one camp going. I was actually. I was shocked, but I was thrilled that Danya won. Count me in the ladder of people who were shocked but thrilled that she won.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And then one person said something snarky about, oh, she forgot to thank her aunt. Nepotism at its finest. I was like, okay, kindly fuck off. Julie Taymor did not buy Donya Taymor a Tony Award. In fact, I think being. I can't imagine that Julie Taymor was Julie Taymor.

[James Soule]

I mean, I'm sure she's a lovely family member, but I can't imagine that there was any sort of favorites that.

[Matt Koplik]

Were, if anything, Julie Taymor. Being your aunt is probably a detriment to your chances because the woman has not delivered on her blank check of Lion King since Lion King. True Spider man was toxic and put her in Broadway director jail.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And ever since then, like, so I've had multiple accounts from people of her, like, being at some of these Tony gatherings for this year to, like, support Danya, but also, like, openly being like, ugh, it's all shit this year. Like, enough people can hear that and go, I don't want to vote for her niece.

[James Soule]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen. To Julie's credit, a lot of people on Broadway felt that way. Sure about this season.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

There. There may or may not be a specific Tony winning person who I speak to on a rather regular basis who said to me point blank, half of these shows are going to be gone by Labor Day. And he said, and I'm not upset about it.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And I went, okay. And that it's not me trying to, like, weed out jerks. This person isn't a jerk. But, you know, Julie Taylor being drunk at a Tony party going, oh, this year has been such shit. It just hurts Danya's chances is all.

[James Soule]

Sure, sure. But to your larger point, yeah, I think that's true. That. That perhaps the excitement level for a lot of things this season hasn't been, you know, overwhelming.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think the only show this season that the Community, the Broadway Community, two shows, I guess the Broadway community got excited about were Merrily for the Sondheim of It all and Stereophonic. And I think. I think Stereophonic is actually more exciting because it was a play with no names in it from a playwright no one really knew. Like, there was no marquee names. And it became a homegrown phenomenon.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And now it's a hot ticket. I have a friend in town who wanted to see a show this week, and I was like, oh, try Serie Fonick. He goes, I tried it. It's sold out through the end of June.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I was like, I'm gonna wait till a summer lull. Like maybe in August.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, wait till the end of August.

[James Soule]

But you know what? This is actually an interesting point because this is something that I. A larger theme about last night that I really thought was resonant and powerful and sort of, you know, rose to the surface, you know, from speech to speech to speech, this idea that, okay, yes, show business is hard and really, really challenging. You never know what's gonna happen. But sometimes the reversal of the fortune. Right. Like the surprise can actually be in your favor. So I feel like the examples of stereophonic. Right. This. This off Broadway play that started out at playwrights did fairly well there. But again, no stars and a really long play. A commitment. Right. To have to sit through. And yet some. You know, it ends up being such a huge success last night. Even Sondheim. Right. The show that his one most notable flop.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Right. Like, I mean, and last night it was celebrated. I mean, you know, in such a huge way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I mean, even things like Billy Porter, you know, I think about him. Yes. Okay, people, people.

[Matt Koplik]

I made a gesture. It's fine.

[James Soule]

People have opinions about him. But I do think as far as his narrative, his. His life narrative is concerned, I can only imagine the. The dark nights of the soul that he had at certain points in his life when his career and life were in specific places. And now he's this, you know, he's this very vocal star.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And, you know, I feel like there were a lot of wonderful moments of that last night, which is what I. Which was sort of my main takeaway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There are a lot of things that I was really happy about. There are very few winners that I side eyed most, even the ones that weren't my first choice tended to be my second choice.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And I was totally okay with it. And I could understand why. The only two that kind of bugs me were one Suffs for book, just because I was like, you know, I think we can honor Shayna with score. I just. I don't think the book is terribly good. And then the other one was Malia for Hell's Kitchen. Just because, like, I don't like that show. I think that part is bad. I liked her at the Public. I didn't see her do it on Broadway. She's been out a lot, and I've had a few people write in fuming about it because she. They're like, oh, apparently you can just not show up to work and still get the award.

[James Soule]

But that was something of an upset last night, right?

[Matt Koplik]

It was. I think it was a close call. I don't. I never truly believed that Kelly was. Had it just locked and loaded. I felt if Days of Wine and Roses were still running, she might have. But that show was divisive. It had been closed.

[James Soule]

Right. She already had her performance, I have to say.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, she's wonderful in it.

[James Soule]

The best acting. I mean, she's always singing. She always sings beautifully. But the best sort of loose acting, like, really just. Yeah. Making a mess on stage, being willing to make a mess on stage.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the messiest. She's the messiest. She's been in, like, 15 years. So, yeah, listen, Marianne was my vote.

[James Soule]

Oh, my God. And Marianne, too.

[Matt Koplik]

But Kelly. But Kelly is my second. But from what I understand, it was a close race among the three of them. And I think what did it in was that Kelly's show had closed.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Kelly's show was polarizing. Marianne wasn't in a best musical nominee, and while she is, in my opinion, the very much center of that show, she does not sing until the very, very, very.

[James Soule]

In terms of quantity.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And it's her song, and her voice is not one. It's like, oh, my God, she let loose and it's like, it's right.

[James Soule]

She's not skrting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's not a Cheina moment.

[James Soule]

Big, huge 11 o' clock number. No.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a woman who's about to die, so her singing is not phenomenal. It's pretty. It's pretty, but it's not powerhouse. And I've had people tell me, like, if she had one more song, she would have won. And I don't know if I agree with that, but it's possible. But both of them had a lot of things going against them. And I think with Malia, ultimately, she had a big role in a big, big musical.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And also the Tonys, one of, like, the three tracks they tend to go with with lead actress in a musical, is the breakthrough ingenue.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

They give that to actress more than they give to actor. There basically, there are three modes. They'll do for leading actress musical to vote for. They do actress who's broken through, like Sutton and Millie.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Heather Headley and Aykina with Paradise Square. Even if it's not. Even if it's not their first show, it's the show that they broke through on.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Then there.

[James Soule]

There's like a perceived breakthrough.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[James Soule]

Because of the role itself. Or.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then the next one is sort of a kissing cousin to this, which is the act, the working actress who finally has her. Her shot.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is. It's not a Star Is Born moment. It is more of a Kelli o' Hara and King and I, Victoria Clarke and Landing the Piazza, which we all know you. We all have known you. You might have been nominated in the past, but now we've. The stars have aligned where, like, this is the right role for you. We all paid attention. It's like how the Theater World Awards have the Dorothy Loudon Award, which is their way of being. Like, technically, we can't give you a Theater World Award because you've been in five Broadway shows. This is our way of saying we noticed you this year.

[James Soule]

Oh, I didn't know there was a Dorothy Loudon Award.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's Julie Benko. Got it last year. It's the award that's basically like, this.

[James Soule]

Is not your round.

[Matt Koplik]

This is not your Broadway debut. We can't give you a Theater World Award.

[James Soule]

Right. But we love your whole body work up to this point kind of thing.

[Matt Koplik]

No, not even that. It's like, you know, you were in three Broadway shows before this. We never really noticed you. But this year you gave a performance that made us go. So. Like, with Julie Benko and Funny Girl, it was.

[James Soule]

She.

[Matt Koplik]

She, like, finally became a name because of all that shit.

[James Soule]

Broke through. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Like did Spring Awakening in Les Mis. So it wasn't her debut. So they couldn't be like, hey, Julie, here's the theater of the world. They're like, here, Julie, here's your Dorothy Loudon. Thanks. Thank you for getting on our radar.

[James Soule]

I love that there's an award for so many things.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. And yet, James, I've got none. You've got that.

[James Soule]

I've been nominated for a couple of things.

[Matt Koplik]

For a Lortel. I know I've got nothing. I've got my right hand. That's what I got. So.

[James Soule]

And this podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's not even complete again. But so. So. So I said, so, like, the Kelly Vicky, like, you've been around and now you're finally getting your. The third one is the Icon. Doing the icon thing. Oh, so that is. And so it's not even. It's not your on the rise breakthrough. It's not. You've been around forever. It's the.

[James Soule]

Like a Lansbury.

[Matt Koplik]

I say Lansbury and Gypsy Sweeney. It's Audra and Porgy and Bess. It's Bacall doing Woman of the Year.

[James Soule]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Where it's like, you're iconic. What you're doing is iconic.

[James Soule]

Yeah. And this role. Yeah. Both you and the role are iconic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's pattern Gypsy. And there are. There are watered down versions of that, like Bernadette Peters and Annie, get your Gun. Because Bernadette Peterson song and dance is the Kelli o' Hara King and I Award, which is like, you've been nominated for. You are a staple of this community. Finally, the stars have aligned. This is your role. Your nomination is. Your competition is weak. Here you go. Annie, get yout Gun was like, you're playing an iconic role. Parade close. So we can't give it to Carolee Carmelo. Here you go.

[James Soule]

Right. Like, you're kind of iconic in the role, and the role is kind of iconic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. If it had been Reba opening in it, it would have been like both.

[James Soule]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It would have been a breakthrough star on the rise. And also you're iconic.

[James Soule]

That's so interesting. Yeah. Because Annie Oakley's not, like, iconic in the way that, like, Mama Rose is iconic. And.

[Matt Koplik]

But she's got, like, seven standards in that show. She's got doing what comes naturally. You can't get a man with a gun. I got lost in his arms. Moonlight lullabies. I offend them every day. I offend my listeners every time I do drop a new episode. But so with Malia, she was the ingenue. Breakthrough, breakthrough.

[James Soule]

That makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So that's how that happened, in my opinion.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I wasn't thrilled with it either. I was happy about Keisha.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Well, I think she falls into that category of what I've mentioned earlier. Just surprises, the reversals of fortune. I mean, she's been obviously working for a long time and all that, but, you know, and her speech, too, was so good. The speeches, I actually think were pretty consistently good.

[Matt Koplik]

There were a couple in the fire.

[James Soule]

For most of them.

[Matt Koplik]

There were a couple on the pre telecast that I was a little like, wrap it up. It's like when the two people won for lighting for Outsiders. I forget their names, but it was the older white guy and then the younger Asian lady.

[James Soule]

Oh. But I liked her speech.

[Matt Koplik]

Her speech was lovely. What I'm saying. It was Brian McDevitt. It was Brian McDevitt. And I also wrote David Zinn's mustache. Oh, I know.

[James Soule]

I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

His head looks like he belongs in the wonderful wizard of Oz.

[James Soule]

But the thing I wrote about Hannah was that when she wasn't speaking, when the other.

[Matt Koplik]

Wait, I think it was Brian Devit.

[James Soule]

Brian devitt was speaking, she looked so visibly, like, earnestly visibly ill. Like, you know, I felt bad for her. And then, you know, so I was like, oh, how's that speech gonna be? And then she started speaking. And it was one of those speeches where it's clearly. Nothing about it is planned except maybe for the people that she gonna thank. Everything else is just coming out of, you know, the reality and the truth of the moment. And I loved it. It was a. It was a perfect speech.

[Matt Koplik]

Her speech was. Her speech was lovely. It was Brian McDevitt just going on for so long. And we all sat there at the party I was at, we were like, brian, you have one of these. Let her speak now. Stop talking.

[James Soule]

That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it wasn't even that. He was talking on and on and on. Like I say a lot really fast. He was saying one sentence a minute.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Looking at his sheet.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

It was. Very much. It was. And then I turned the corner, next line, I walked down the street, looks back at his paper across the street. I saw. But he says something along lines like, how often do you see this? How often do you get to do.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'm sitting there going like, well, you've been in this industry for decades, I'm assuming.

[James Soule]

And you said you just won the award before. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm pretty sure he's won the award before. Maybe I'm making that up, but I'm pretty sure he's won the award before. But I was like, this is her first. Tony. Let her talk.

[James Soule]

Yeah, let her do the majority of the talk.

[Matt Koplik]

Which he did eventually. But I was like, you don't.

[James Soule]

And luckily, she had time for it.

[Matt Koplik]

She did.

[James Soule]

She was not played off.

[Matt Koplik]

They ended that telecast. I think they ended on the earlier side.

[James Soule]

Yeah, they did.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank goodness I wrote that.

[James Soule]

One of my notes that I wrote about her speech was that I bet she'll watch it back years from now and be embarrassed, but I don't think she has any reason to be embarrassed. I think it was just the perfect kind of speech. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We should start going chronological with this telecast now. But before we do any of that, we Gotta take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[James Soule]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[James Soule]

Yeah, you're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the female.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back. So the pre telecast started on I think Paramount Produce. No, Pluto started on Pluto.

[James Soule]

Pluto.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes, at 6:30 sharp. And I know this because the host of our party kept trying to start it at 6:28, like just like kind of get the app running and it wouldn't let him hit like a load button or a play button. And he kept freaking out. And I was like, I think you.

[James Soule]

Have to wait until it's literally 6:30 on the dot. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the moment like I think was 10 seconds after it turned to 6:30, he finally was able to play it and he. And he was able to relax.

[James Soule]

There were some technological issues apparently with the app and. Yeah, well, struggling.

[Matt Koplik]

The sound designer for the Outsider said fuck. And.

[James Soule]

Oh yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they just fully blacked it out.

[James Soule]

They just blacked it out. And I want. I hope someone had their phone out or something that we can get some of that footage on an Instagram story or something.

[Matt Koplik]

I hope so. I hope so. It would be great.

[James Soule]

Full disclosure, again, I didn't actually start watching until David Zinn won his award. So I watched before that.

[Matt Koplik]

I haven't order the winners. It was so Suffs was the first one of the night and it was Shane of her book. She gave a lovely speech and told everyone to register to vote. And then after that was Jaja's African hair braiding for costume design of a play. And I am thrilled. My God, am I thrilled. There is discussion right now that part of that win comes from the wig design and that they're needs to be a campaign to start a wig in hair and makeup design, which I'm totally here for because talk about a category where finally we could have nominated Heart of Rock and Roll.

[James Soule]

Oh my God, those wigs were fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

Best wigs in a musical this year.

[James Soule]

Oh my God, so good.

[Matt Koplik]

And the same person that did Jaja's.

[James Soule]

Not super over the top. Just like perfect. Yeah, perfect in every way and perfectly fit for the actor that the wig was on. And yeah, I think hair and wig design, I think projections itself should be a thing now. And also casting directors, I think I.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, I think we have now gotten to a point with projections in musicals and plays that they need to be a separate category.

[James Soule]

Oh, 100.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, because 100 they're they're fully. They're here to stay.

[James Soule]

If it's literally a separate skill set, I think there should be a second.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I also want us to bring back music director, but that's difficult. I know.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, just. Yeah. I say this is controversial.

[James Soule]

Is musical director controversial in any way?

[Matt Koplik]

Not controversial. I think it's. I would. If. If we can do with music direction what we now do with orchestrations and sound, which is. It's not just everyone can vote for it. You have to be in that field to vote for it.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I was talking to some voter friends of mine, and they were going through sort of some of their choices, and I remember asking them about orchestrations and sound, and they're like, oh, I don't get to vote for that because I'm not in that field.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But so.

[James Soule]

Which is good. That's good.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. But so I'm like, yeah, like, have, like, 30 music directors vote on music direction and. Because.

[James Soule]

Is there. Would it be, like, a. Would a slightly amended category maybe be, like, music team? Because, I mean, I feel like there's so many people in that arena that do so much good and creative work.

[Matt Koplik]

Like direction and arrangements.

[James Soule]

Yeah, arrangements and things like that.

[Matt Koplik]

I just say this after, you know, seeing Sweeney Todd when it opened and then seeing it again nine minutes into the run when Alex Lacamore left, and I think it was Kristin Blodgett came in to take over, and the tempos finally were close to what I wanted.

[James Soule]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

They sort of.

[James Soule]

She's much more old school, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, she's. She's an Angelo rubber gal. She's, like, fast and loose.

[James Soule]

Yes, totally.

[Matt Koplik]

I. Because Alex, God bless him, he was playing. He was com. He was conducting that score in March of 2023 with a very cautious hand. And I'm like, girl, it's Sweeney. Let it rip.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Kristen was like, I'm not going to go up to the shoulder with my fisting, but we can get to, like, the forearm.

[James Soule]

Such a vivid metaphor.

[Matt Koplik]

That's what. When I think of a conductor letting it rip, I think of them bringing that hand down as they start on the downbeat, and I'm like, okay, how far deep is that fist gonna go? And Kristen's like, we'll get to the elbow maybe.

[James Soule]

I did see that revival when Sutton and Aaron took over, and so I'm assuming she was conducting.

[Matt Koplik]

She was.

[James Soule]

And the orchestra was. Oh, yeah. It was magic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Was Sutton doing footwork still when you saw it?

[James Soule]

She did. She was doing the footwork Great. Let's move on.

[Matt Koplik]

Once upon a mattress, here we come.

[James Soule]

Let's move on.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's move on. Okay, so then it was Ja Jaws. It was Ja Jaws. African hairbraiding with costumes, which we're thrilled about. And then after that, it was great. Gatsby for costume design of a musical.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes. Linda Cho.

[Matt Koplik]

Wonderful, wonderful costume designer. I'm not. I don't hate the costumes in Gatsby. I don't love them. Her job was obviously to sort of do a heightened version of that E with some glitter attached because it's a big, glitzy musical and it falls in line with what the production is doing. She did her job.

[James Soule]

Meaning fitting into the context of all the other designs.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. Like they are all in the same world of Gatsby. My issue, as I said before, is I am not on board with this production's vision for Gatsby. But all the design elements, same show, locked in.

[James Soule]

I am very curious about the other Gatsby that is in Boston right now, the Lachiusa Gatsby. Although, I guess, depending on which wild party you love more. Yeah. I mean, technically speaking, interchange Lachiusa or Lipa. You know, depending on which one.

[Matt Koplik]

One is on Broadway, one is not.

[James Soule]

Okay, that's.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, but also.

[James Soule]

Well, that's. My question is, I wonder, will there. Could there be space for that. The other Gatsby to transfer.

[Matt Koplik]

Super curious. You know what I would love is if they did it at, like, the Neil Simon or the Wilson, like, literally around the corner from the Broadway.

[James Soule]

I thought you were gonna say something more subversive, like, they should both be at the Broadway theater and alternate nights. Like.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[James Soule]

Like that. That True west that happened with Felicity.

[Matt Koplik]

Moore, Hoffman and John C. Reilly.

[James Soule]

John C. Reilly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Went back and forth. Yeah. And then just for poops and giggles, we'll. I don't know, we'll have, like, Andrew Lippa do a Gatsby throw in there and, like, oh, my God, it's a throuple.

[James Soule]

Love it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Open relationships.

[James Soule]

All at the Broadway theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Next up, we have orchestrations, which went to Merrily we roll along.

[James Soule]

Yes. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I had some folks who were not pleased with this one with this win.

[James Soule]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

I was happy to have Jonathan Tunick win because that speech was very sweet. And Also, like, man's 87 or 86. He's 86.

[James Soule]

Legend.

[Matt Koplik]

Legend. And did a lovely job. I think some people were miffed about it because his orchestrations for this Merrily are repurposing orchestrations. He's done in the past because he's been like Sondheim's go to guy forever. And so basically every.

[James Soule]

Pretty much every Sondheim musical post, like Forum, maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Company was his first one. The only one he didn't do, as far as I know, was Sunday. And I think that was because Playwrights was like, you must use Michael Starabin.

[James Soule]

Gotcha.

[Matt Koplik]

Which I'm not mad about. Starobin's orchestrations for Sunday are awesome, but Tunic has pretty much been the go to ever since. Tunic for every major production of Merrily has been the orchestrator on it. So he doesn't like, redo anything insanely for this. Ultimately, it's okay. We have 13 pieces. Make it work for this. But I thought his orchestrations were lovely. And as I mentioned in a previous episode with the Theater lovers, he made 13 pieces sound like 20. Because there have been orchestras larger than Merrily's that sound way thinner, and they make this one sound.

[James Soule]

I feel like it's also his gift, generally speaking.

[Matt Koplik]

He's good at what.

[James Soule]

He's so good at what he does.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I don't love his orchestrations for the 2018 carousel, but, like, his assignment was to make it sound large and lush, which is what he did. It just. There was absolutely no nuance to it, but there was no nuance to that production. So it all was in the world. All in the same world.

[James Soule]

That Carousel was controversial for me, too. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's nothing controversial about it. For me, I think it's garbage. I've said it before. I'll say it again. I'll say it till I'm dead. That was a terrible production. Scott Rudin said, hey, let's approach Carousel like we approached hello, Dolly. That's like saying, let's approach Streetcar Named Desire like we approach Noises off.

[James Soule]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

One of these things is not like the other one of these things.

[James Soule]

This actually could be a decent segue, though, into one of the lifetime achievement Tonys.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, George C. Wolfe and Jack o' Brien together.

[James Soule]

Jack o'. Brien. I thought Jack o' Brien's speech was beautiful. Beautiful. I wrote in my notes that, you know, if I ever have a moment in the future where I'm feeling cynical about this business, I'm gonna YouTube that speech because it was just beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

Gorgeous. Jack O' Brien and George C. Wolfe are absolute geniuses and men of the theater.

[James Soule]

Like gentlemen of the theater and so smart. So. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, and Jack o', Brien too. I mean, actually, both of them have Such rich history in this art form. In the beginning, in the sort of latter half for. For Jack O'. Brien. Latter half of the 20th century.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And so their lineage, the where they come from, the people that they worked with or started with, it's just incredible.

[Matt Koplik]

Jack O' Brien worked with the acting company that Patti LuPone and Kevin Kline were in, like the inaugural Inaug. Inaugural. Inaugural. I can't speak the First Juilliard, but when you think about all the things he's done, he's. Talk about Versal. The man has done Shakespeare musicals. He's done Tom Stoppard, coast of Utopia, Henry IV, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, Full Monty, Hairspray, two Shakespearean actors, revival of Porgy Investor from the 70s. Shucked. Shucked, yeah. He did a nice job with Shucked, basically. I view more that, like, Jack O' Brien had a period from, let's say, like 2016. 20. 2015 to right before Shucked. Like, he had a bad spell. And Shucked was very fun. He's about to do the Patti LuPone Mia Farrow play, the Two Hander. And if that's not good, I don't blame him. But, I mean, even George C. Wolfe has had duds. He did that on the Town that everyone has agreed was bad.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But they've also done some incredible things, and they are.

[James Soule]

Oh, my God, George. George C. Wolf's legacy. I mean, with angel in America and Jelly's Last Jam.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, He's a brilliant writer, he's a brilliant director, He's a brilliant actor.

[James Soule]

Yeah. They live and breathe this art form. I mean, and I know that George C. Wolfe has directed some films. I just rewatched Prada. He's in it. You know, he's got the little cameo in it. And it just. He. Yeah, he's a. They're theater beasts. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, so from what I understand, Meryl had just done Mother Courage in the Parks that he saw, which he. And he directed. And Kushner did the adaptation of it, and she requested the music.

[James Soule]

The music.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[James Soule]

Another stacked cast.

[Matt Koplik]

So my two. My favorite things about her connection to George C. Wolfe. Because George C. Wolfe was, I think, still the artistic director of the public at that time. I believe he was leaving a year or two later. But she had done that Mother Courage. And then I think she did the Seagull right after that. Or maybe it was.

[James Soule]

No, the Seagull was before.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[James Soule]

That was a couple years before.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. When so.

[James Soule]

But George Seawolf didn't direct the Seagull was Mike.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so it's. It's two separate stories I'm telling. But I know Mother Courage. She did Mother Courage. And then I believe Devil Earth's Prada was filmed right after that, because she personally requested George C. Wolfe to have a bit part in Prada, but a story.

[James Soule]

And he's good at it. He's good in this. This tiny role.

[Matt Koplik]

He's great. But when she was doing Seagull with Nichols, and, like, she and Nichols had a very loving collaboration, but that Seagull was very famous for being this big event that ended up sort of being a dud. And the story I've been told was that they're rehearsing in the Delacorte, and George walks in to, like, observe, and Meryl on stage sees him and just shouts, oh, thank God. Someone who's here who knows what they're doing.

[James Soule]

Really. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I just think Mike was out of his depth. Like, Mike Nichols, brilliant director that he was, he was really not one for the Seagull. He was not one for the Country Girl or even really Death of a Salesman. Like, he was better at truth in comedy than in, like, heavy classics. But he liked to. You know, I buy that.

[James Soule]

I was about to say, you know, maybe it was the size of that cast for the Seagull, but. No, I mean, you know, Death of Salesman doesn't have a huge cast, and Country Girl, I don't think had a huge cast because there were so many different kinds of actors in that Seagull. And it was one of the first things that I ever saw moving up to New York. And, you know, I was enthralled by it because there were so many movie stars in it, but you could definitely tell that everyone was in a slightly different play. And so how do you wrangle that as a director?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, Lila couldn't do that for this current Uncle Vanya. Oh.

[James Soule]

Which I haven't seen again, I think.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's now closed. It's. It's not good. Everyone. Everyone is in a. Is in a different show. It. I don't.

[James Soule]

I mean, I love all those actors. I love Girl.

[Matt Koplik]

I've said it before. Up and up until their first preview, it was my most anticipated thing of the year. Yes, those actors. Lila Nugebauer as the director, Heidi Shrek as the.

[James Soule]

I would argue even more than, say, like, the enemy of the people. Like, this was, like, because of the stacked cast, because of the director involved, because of the title of the play, because of even where it was Being done.

[Matt Koplik]

Lincoln Center.

[James Soule]

Yeah. It was like, okay, this is gonna be the play of the season.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Everybody watch out. Then we did, and nothing came our way. Yeah, It's a shame, but. So, yes, George and Jack, their acceptance speeches, both fantastic.

[James Soule]

Love them.

[Matt Koplik]

Audra, introducing George. Wonderful.

[James Soule]

Coming out in that dress, getting a.

[Matt Koplik]

Standing ovation, as rightfully she should. I'm so excited for what George Seawolf is going to do with Gypsy. Even if it doesn't totally work, it's going to be fascinating.

[James Soule]

Oh, for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There was an article in the Bare Minimum.

[James Soule]

It's going to be a fascinating thing to experience and watch.

[Matt Koplik]

An article in the Times. I forget the writer, but he's a black writer who does a lot of critical thinking on black art. And he talked about how he was very skeptical about this Gypsy. Now that it's clear that it's not colorblind that, like, this gypsy is intentionally a black mama Rose. And, oh, and now Louise is black and June is biracial. And he's like, it takes me out because of the historical stuff and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just sitting there going, like, first of all, wait till you see it. And also, I guarantee you there's nothing that you're saying that George C. Wolfe hasn't thought about.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Whether you like the show or not, the man is a fucking genius. And he's thought of everything you've thought about 10 times. And not just.

[James Soule]

Yeah, exactly. Not just, like, ruminated, you know, occasionally, like, this is stuff that meticulous thought has been put into.

[Matt Koplik]

The man is obsessed with race in America. That is like his. That is his thing. And he doesn't do it in a way that panders. He doesn't do it in a way that makes you comfortable. There's a famous image from Jelly's Last Jam because Jelly Roll Morton was a mixed race man who hated being black. He considered himself better then and, like, had a lot of inner racism about it. And so that was a major theme of Jelly's Last Jam. And there was a number where the ensemble came out in bellhop attire with white painted lips. It was an all black cast. And the cast talked about how, like, it made them uncomfortable when they first had to do it. And George, like, didn't sit down with them, like, let's talk about it. He's like, well, you're gonna do it and eventually you're gonna realize why it's important. And they're like, well, now we're. We've finally opened on Broadway and, like, we've gotten our reviews in the Tonys and whatever. And they're like, like, we get it. We get why we got. We get why we have to do it. I'm like, I'm okay doing it now, but like, it took a second.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he didn't hold our hands. He's like, you'll get there, you'll figure it out.

[James Soule]

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. These bold thought through things that are not whims.

[Matt Koplik]

No, he's not doing it to be controversial. There's a reason for it. And also he's like, I don't want you to feel secure. We should never feel secure. What good is that? And so. Yeah, no, their, their awards were so well deserved and their speeches were lovely. Next up, we have scenic design of a musical. Went to Cabaret. A lot of people feeling her lies Love got robbed. To which I'm like, I don't know why you thought that was gonna happen. Yeah, it was very.

[James Soule]

It's the distance, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Very much the distance.

[James Soule]

Yeah, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's one of those things where you have to be pragmatic.

[James Soule]

It was a fantastic design though. And, you know, not that. Not terribly unlike the conceit of Cabaret or Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club because of the sort of immersive element of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Being surrounded by. And it. It immediately conjures up an experience rather than a musical or a play or you're sitting in this theater and watching through this proscenium that everything, you know, you were surrounded by everything.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think with Cabaret, with Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club, it. It went like two steps further because they do the lobby, they do other areas, they make you enter through a different part of the theater. So they really were like, oh, we're going to push this. So I think it was just more impressive. And also it's currently running. And even people who don't like this production acknowledge that the technical feat of what they accomplished is impressive and it.

[James Soule]

Is part of the experience. Right. Because I haven't seen it, but you can come to the theater super early to just be able to walk around the space, Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So if, let's say the show starts at 7, I believe the theater itself opens at like 5:30. Maybe 5:30. I don't know. Maybe I'm lying about that. I know in London you have timed entrances based on what tickets you purchased. I see. Yeah. But you enter through the alleyway on the right side of the theater where there's already neon lights and posters everywhere.

[James Soule]

Is that the Imperial?

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's at the August Wilson.

[James Soule]

The August Wilson, that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

And you enter through house. Right. And it takes you, like, a couple of minutes to realize. If you've been to that theater before, it takes you a couple minutes to realize where you are.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is the point. They want to disorient you. And then. Yeah, you can walk about and sort of see what everything looks like. And you can get drinks. They hand you schnapps.

[James Soule]

And there's those art installations that were commissioned. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. They don't, like, do this giant overhaul of the space. It's actually, for me, as someone who knows that theater rather well, I was impressed by how clever it was of they didn't do a ton to the lobby. They didn't do a ton to the back of the theater. It was more like they would add little touches here and there and they enhanced other elements of the theater's design. Already got it. That maybe you didn't notice or you didn't like before. So that was impressive to me. But I know people who are very much more Team Heroized Love. And I would have been happy with either. But it was. For me, it was just clear Cabaret was winning.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Next up, we have set design of a play which went to Stereophonic, which I thought it was gonna be appropriate. I thought that tree was gonna do it for them. Oh, yeah, yeah. But Stereophonic, I gotta say, like, like it.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It. For what I understand the tree actually is dropped in from the flies in the. In the quick blackout. But the idea. The idea is that it grows in the house. Yeah. Yes. Trees do grow.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

No, but the way they do that whole epilogue is how I thought that set was gonna win. And I think it just ended up being the incredible detail of the Stereophonic set that got people voting for it.

[James Soule]

I mean, the pictures alone, I mean, it looks amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm going again in July with my Grandma. She is 100 years old, and she was determined to see Stereophonic. I said, okay, let's hope.

[James Soule]

Wow. Did she explain why this particular play of all plays?

[Matt Koplik]

Because of the buzz around it already?

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because my cousin and I went right before they opened. And both of us were like, that was pretty fantastic. And she takes my recommendation seriously. This is a woman who's been going to theater since she was, like, 4. And listen, she says things sometimes from like, I don't. I don't know. That's not correct. Like, we saw the Hugh Jackman, Sutton Foster Music man together. She was like, that's one of the best things I'VE ever seen. I was like, I know some of the things you've seen. Like, you saw Gertrude Lawrence in Lady in the Dark. That there's no way this is better than that. You saw the original Oklahoma Bitch. You saw A Chorus Line when it was at the public. Like, this is not better than that.

[James Soule]

That's. That's the stuff, like, if I could build a time machine and go back in time, like, it's stuff like that that, you know, before we knew Sweeney was Sweeney, before we knew the ending of it, before we knew the twist at the end, or even Oklahoma. Right. What was that experience like to be at the first preview of Oklahoma?

[Matt Koplik]

I've thought about this a lot, and I. My answer changes all. My answer changes all the time. My current answer right now of, like, if you had one show time machine, I'd want to go to the opening night of Cancan because I want to experience that ovation that everyone talks about Gwen Verdon getting after she did, like, her really big ballet, she goes off stage and the audience wouldn't let. Oh. And they.

[James Soule]

They wouldn't let it continue until she.

[Matt Koplik]

Came out and took a vow. And she came out, like, in a towel. And it was. And everyone's chanting, verdin. Verdin. Like, I. What would that have been like?

[James Soule]

That's a good one, too.

[Matt Koplik]

That's an amazing one. That said, so we go see that music, Man. I think it was more that. I think that was her first show post Broadway reopening, and it was a big show.

[James Soule]

The pageantry of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. It was a big, epic, you know, musical entertainment. So I get it, and I enjoyed it. But I. I sort of let her say what she said, and then I was like, okay, we'll move on from this. But, like, I took. I took that girl to Fun Home. She loved it, and she. I love it everything. Except for she did not like Illinois. But everything else I've taken her to or sent her to, she has liked. Took her to Enemy of the People. She fucking loved it. And she regrets not seeing Kimberly Akimbo because she thought it was gonna be too sad. And I kept telling her it is sad, but it's like, bittersweet sad. Yeah, it's more. It's not tragic. It's. It's honestly much more optimistic than you realize. Yes.

[James Soule]

It ends with some optimism, A healthy amount of optimism.

[Matt Koplik]

And they won all the Tonys. And I kept talking about it, and my dad told her it was good.

[James Soule]

Performances are amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

She didn't end up going. She regrets it so now she's like, if you tell me it's good, I will go. And I very offhandedly was like, yeah, Scott. And I really loved Stereophonic. And she's like, I want to go. And then they got those amazing. She got those amazing reviews, and then they got all the Tony nominations. She's like, I want to go.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I went, okay.

[James Soule]

I said, it's and smart for getting the tickets before it won all the.

[Matt Koplik]

Awards last night, we got premium seats for. It's on her dime, thank God, because she's a hundred.

[James Soule]

Always helps.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a hundred. She can't do steps. So it has to be orchestra and it has to be together. She won't let me sit in another part of the theater, even if it means it might be less money.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, no, you sit next to me. And I go, okay. And I go to the box office and I say, okay, what do we have for, like, premium in the orchestra for, like, this day in July? And they go, oh, well, this one's like, it's 279. I went, oh, I thought that was gonna be, like, 400. And she goes. The box office attendant, God bless them, was like, well, not yet, because this was.

[James Soule]

They're honest.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because I bought this on Friday, and. And I was like, oh, yeah. Like, after Sunday, that's gonna. Because we all. We both looked at each other like, we know you guys are gonna win a good number of awards. Like, that's gonna go up a lot. And she was like, yeah, I can't sell that for 400 yet. No.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Like I said, I'm hoping there's gonna be a little bit of a lull in August maybe. You know, when I think tourists in the city.

[Matt Koplik]

Labor Day. Labor Day is the way.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But. Yeah. So Stereophonic winning set design. That set is fantastic.

[James Soule]

I hope you do an episode of what you're explaining or, you know, illustrating how your. What your grandma thought of Stereophonic. I can't wait for that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, maybe we'll do a post. Yeah, we'll do a post. Stereophonic episode. I don't think I can convince her to come on the podcast, but I can maybe get some recordings with her.

[James Soule]

Oh, yeah, like, recordings of her, like, her immediate response.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Again, she. She won't shut the fuck up about Enemy to people. I'm like, girl, I was there with you. I. You don't have to tell me. I told you to go.

[James Soule]

Well, and specifically with that set of Stereophonic, my understanding is that the Verisimilitude. Right. It's so real. Like, it's just you're. You're. You. This word that gets thrown around so much, but we used it earlier about being transported. Right. It's so easy to be transported because of the magic. Meticulous design.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And the way that it's written and the way it's acted, you definitely feel like you are somewhere you're not supposed to be. Then we have choreography, which went to Illinois. Some people wrote in asking if I was surprised that it didn't go to Outsiders. No. I always knew it was going to be Illinois. This is a case of also. I mean, I do think the choreography in Illinois is overall lovely. It is also a case of most choreography winning.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Outsiders was my second. I would say this was a solid category because it was Illinois's Outsiders. Water for Elephants, which are all three wonderful nominations. Here Lies Love, which was a fun nomination. I was so glad they got that.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Hell's Kitchen, which has some good choreo, but it's over choreographed. Here's the first chapter, James, of me being mad at Alicia Keys. Okay, strap in, y'. All. So Alicia Keys, brilliant artist.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Philanthropist.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sure.

[James Soule]

Broadway producer, too, at one point. Well, she produced this play called Stick Fly.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. She did do that.

[James Soule]

This was, like, maybe 15 years ago.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I was gonna say she has. She. From every report I have gotten from people at these Tony events. First of all, I talked about how she sent a robocall to all the nominators being like, please consider Hell's Kitchen. And it worked for enough of them.

[James Soule]

Yeah, but.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's something that a lot of shows do. They.

[James Soule]

If there's, like, some sort of star, especially star, producer attached.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. Although I don't think Angela Nit Jolie did that for Outsiders. I think she's very much more kind of on the sidelines as a producer for that show, which I appreciate. But with Alicia, they were like, go hard. And she did, like, a private concert for them. Like, all this stuff. Like, she really campaigned hard. And part of me is like, use what you got. The other part of me that kind of gets a little ticked off is there was an event where she went on about how voters should vote for Camille Brown for choreography. First of all, the one thing voters don't like to be told is who they should be voting for. Just talk about why you love your company and your nominees. Don't be like, here's why you should vote for them. Be like, say, Camille is one of our great choreographers right now. She's a woman of color who is bringing her life experience to the stage in a way that we don't see very often. Think about her work in Choir Boy, her work in Once on this island, her work for colored girls.

[James Soule]

It's that thing of networking, but not showing that you're networking exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

You just use the passion and talk about the long legacy of female choreographers and how many of them have what they brought to the industry but didn't get recognized. How Anna White did this brilliant work in the original Music man and then, like, got a specialty Oscar for Oliver. Rightfully so, but never won a Tony Award. Carol Haney. And, like, it really wasn't until we honored Agnes de Mille once. But that was kind of it for a while. It wasn't until really Stroman and Twyla Tharpe and Kathleen Marshall were like, hey, honoring women. And we had a woman of color win for Moulin Rouge. That's not what Alicia Keys said. What Alicia Keys said was, you should all vote for Camille Brown because it's time that a woman of color won in this category. Which erases the fact that a woman of color did win for Moulin Rouge. Granted, it was the COVID gas leak year, but it happened. It's on Wikipedia.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And it makes. It makes me mad. That was the first strike against her for me. I also don't like someone coming on from coming down from on high who is not a member of this community and telling us. I'm like, okay, Alicia, tell me 10 female choreographers right now. Do it. Oh, you can't. Then don't tell me who to vote for.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Talk about what makes Camille's work so fantastic.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

You're also undermining her work as an artist by making it about her race and her gender.

[James Soule]

Potentially by reducing it down to that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh, we should vote for her because of her gender, not because she's legitimately doing great work. Yeah, because she is doing great work. Maybe not all the time in Hell's Kitchen, but, like, overall has done great work.

[James Soule]

Well, her body of work for colored girls was beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

Once on this island was so hot. Her work on Choir Boy was electric. And I'm like, girlfriend knows how to bring it.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I wouldn't vote for her for Hell's Kitchen because I thought half the time the choreography didn't work and was used in improper places.

[James Soule]

I will say, if I were to just base off of the numbers from the awards last night, there was a. It was Hard to focus, like, to know where to focus in the Hell's Kitchen number.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, also, there was terrible camera work the entire time.

[James Soule]

That's also something that we should probably talk about.

[Matt Koplik]

We were. I got. We have mentions of that. People wrote in about it, but, yes, we're gonna do that.

[James Soule]

Yeah. So it was hard, and there was a lot of. There was a lot of movement. It was all very frenetic, but bodies were moving. It was hard to discern, like, where my attention should go. Whereas with the Outsiders, what was interesting by the time they got to that fight sequence. This is stunning, and it is reminiscent, in a way of Justin Peck's choreography in Illinois, because the storytelling is so clear from the movement that you could take out the sound, put it on mute, watch it, and you would be able to grasp some. Something that's going on.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. I. There is such a lack of focus in Hell's Kitchen, just all the way around. And I think that this Tony performance is representative of that, or at least the first half is, because then we have the second half, which we. We will get to it. We will get to it angry, if furious. It made me. Flames, flame on the side of my face. Heaving, heaving breaths.

[James Soule]

But so, Camille, we should invoke Madeline Kahn in every episode.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. No, Camille's work in general is so fantastic, which is why I was disappointed with Hell's Kitchen on her end, with everyone's end, because there would be times when I'm like, oh, this is so good. And then other times where I'm like, you are better than this.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're smarter than this. You're more.

[James Soule]

Again, if there were more time, perhaps. I mean, look, I don't know how long it's been in development. Maybe it's already been a long time, but maybe it falls into that category of what we were talking about earlier, that it needed a little bit more time in the oven before it, you know, came to.

[Matt Koplik]

I guess.

[James Soule]

I mean, came to the Schubert.

[Matt Koplik]

The story I was told, because I had friends who were approached to invest in Hell's Kitchen for coming to Broadway. And they're like, well, what are you gonna work on? You know, after the reviews you got off Broadway, they weren't great. And the team was like, honestly, we were kind of surprised by those reviews, and we don't agree with them. So we're just gonna. We're gonna do very minimal changes, which made me angry, and I thought that the critics were gonna notice that nothing really got changed and get angry. That's not what happened. You know, Elizabeth Fincientelli, Adam Feldman basically were like, oh my God, night and day. I'm like, they trimmed five minutes and we're on a larger stage. Nothing else has changed. So I got, I got furious because, like, your job is to notice this stuff and to talk about it. But ultimately they're like, oh, I got swept up in it. Which I guess you can't blame someone for, because when you're in the room, you feel the energy and it's easy to get swept up. I had friends at the Tonys last night who claimed that the Hell's Kitchen performance was the best of the night. And I'm like, maybe it was when you were in the room because you were at an Alicia Keys concert by the end of it.

[James Soule]

Yeah, right. Which was pre taped. The section where she comes out into.

[Matt Koplik]

The lobby with Jay Z. Oh, Jay Z was not waiting in that lobby for two hours to do that bit.

[James Soule]

He takes us sitting on those marble steps, looking at his watch until his time is being.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, Yonce says, I gotta be home by 8:30. Let's get this done. No, that, that. They filmed that shit two months ago and they went to the Tony producers and they said, we got this in the can and you're gonna let us do it. And the Tony producer said, by all means, Ms. Keys, here is my butt. Would you like more plowing?

[James Soule]

I didn't mind it. I loved. I actually liked it when she came out and you know, and then. And then went to that pre taped sequence I didn't know was pre taped last night. I found out this morning. Read it in the Times, but I enjoyed it. I really thought that perhaps that should have some. Some version of that should have opened the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, we'll get to that opening number, but I'll just say as a pre warning, as we talk about that Hell's Kitchen performance, I did not care for it. And I'm glad that you enjoyed it. I'm glad someone did.

[James Soule]

And anytime I can hear Shoshana Bean.

[Matt Koplik]

Sing, I'm not mad about Shoshana or Brandon or Keisha singing ever, ever, ever, ever. I would rather they do Keisha's Act 1 finale number, Granite. I have issues with that number as well, but she sells the absolute fuck out of it.

[James Soule]

Yeah, I've heard the recording.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Or just have Shoshana and Brandon do their whole Kitchen Table song, because those two have chemistry up the wazoo.

[James Soule]

This begs another question too, about how to decide what, what it is you're going to show from your musical that's been nominated. Right. Because again, if the Tony Awards are something of commercial to try to entice more audiences. Audiences to come see the show, it's like, what do you. Do you do like one number or do you do as. As was pretty frequent last night, sort of medley of numbers. And I don't know what the solution is. I mean, obviously there's no universal solution. Solution to it. But you know, I think back to like that revival of into the Woods. Not the most recent one, but the one that.

[Matt Koplik]

The Vanessa Williams one.

[James Soule]

Yeah, the Vanessa Williams one. And you know, they do like. They tried to do like a three minute version of into the Woods. It was like into the woods Jr. But like.

[Matt Koplik]

But it was the whole show. Yeah.

[James Soule]

Even more terrible. Yeah. And it just. I felt like it didn't show off very much of anything.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, the original into the woods did the exact same thing and they also didn't show off the show very well and they had pre taped segments.

[James Soule]

We'll.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll talk about that in a minute. Because I. I have, I have my opinions of what makes the best performances or at least the most memorable ones.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Overall, I think medleys are wrong. There are very few medleys in Tony history that have worked for me. The best one. And it's a terrible example to give, but it's the original Annie. And because they had 10 minutes, which I don't endorse.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't endorse that for people. But like you got all of tomorrow.

[James Soule]

You got all these streets, you got.

[Matt Koplik]

All of these street. You got all of never fully dressed without a smile.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And how. And historically speaking, how grateful am I that we have incompletion those three numbers.

[James Soule]

Oh, totally. Especially with Dorothy Loudon.

[Matt Koplik]

Dorothy Loudon doing. Yeah, her performance is incredible. But also those fucking orphans with faces like Brick Roads doing the best vaudeville bump and grind choreography like that. Peter Gennaro's choreography in Annie is so fantastic because it's not like. It's not backflips or anything like that. It's just real people.

[James Soule]

Yes. Kids being kids.

[Matt Koplik]

Kids being kids.

[James Soule]

I think the Easy street number is kind of like that too.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[James Soule]

Not like crazy. Incredible choreography, but something about it. And the execution by like Dorothy Loudon.

[Matt Koplik]

Especially and Rooster with his gummy body. Yeah.

[James Soule]

Sells it so hard.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, just like old school and gritty, but it has a rapid to it. It's so. It's.

[James Soule]

I feel like one other time in more recent history where a medley has worked. And I think it's partly because the songs themselves are relatively familiar for just generally in, like, music vernacular. Was the 42nd street opening. That happened, you know, at the early aughts, Maybe. Maybe in 2000, somewhere around there. And it was also the opening number. So it opened the show. So they did like, they did the very tail end of the 42nd Street Ballet. And then they did this thing where they, like, they go into the subway and they take the train to Radio City Music Hall. Radio City Music Hall. Sorry, Radio City Music Hall. And then they run onto the stage and they do. We're in the money.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And so, you know, you get a flavor of the show, but it was also slightly unique because it opened the entire award ceremony.

[Matt Koplik]

Smokey Joe's Cafe did a very similar thing with On Broadway.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

They went from their theater to the Minsk God Theater. Yeah. It was super fun.

[James Soule]

So if it, like, has a purpose, even in addition to showing off the show. I like that my.

[Matt Koplik]

My favorite version of the medley is when you do a little bit of one song that then leads you directly into a full version of the next one. So, like, the best example for me.

[James Soule]

It'S like a 2080.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. The 91 once on this island, which is 40 seconds of part of the Human Heart and goes right into Mama Provide. And actually that little snippet of the reprise that Ti Moune sings in there, it's like, it's. It is a performance that you would not see in these show as it is on the Tonys, but it is a full representation of it and it's like perfectly, like, entwined with each other. They have the option up for Lashanze doing Part of the Human Heart. Bump. Bum bum bum bum, bum, bum bum.

[James Soule]

Yes. Going.

[Matt Koplik]

And then. Yeah. It's so good. It's so good. That's my favorite version of a medley where it's like a little bit of one into the next and making it just so perfect and.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So we got it. No, we just got to keep going. We'll get. We'll talk more about that in a second when we get to performances. So Illinois choreography. Very happy with that one. Outsiders for lighting design of a musical. Thrilled. I was so happy.

[James Soule]

I mean, even just from the outsider segment. Yeah, you can tell.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

The lighting design is not just design, but design that is integral to every other element of the show.

[Matt Koplik]

And I gotta say, the. There are some categories this year where it was just like bangers all around, and they tended to be in the, like, lesser known categories. All the ones that were not on the Actual broadcast. Lightning design of a musical for me was a banger category because it was Illinois, it was the Outsiders, it was Water for Elephants, it was Cabaret, and it was Hell's Kitchen. And even everything I've said about Hell's Kitchen, that lighting, super neat Cabaret, fantastic lighting, Water for Elephants, beautiful lighting, Outsiders, hot lighting, Illinois's poetic lighting. Every. All very different, all stunning. And I'm like. Even though I don't like Hell's Kitchen, I wouldn't be mad if they won lighting because I wouldn't be mad about any of those five winning.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So I. But Outsiders may be particularly happy. Appropriate one lightning design of a play, which I totally get. I thought it was gonna be stereophonic because of the lighting shifts they do in the recording sessions, but appropriate had some stellar atmospheric lighting, especially the opening of Act 2, when Elle Fanning is in the living room looking at photos by candlelight. It's like. It's like an oil painting. It's like a Renoir painting. No, not Renoir. Rembrandt. It's like a Rembrandt painting.

[James Soule]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like that painting.

[James Soule]

Like that chiaroscuro, like. Right. Isn't that what it's called, the chiaroscuro? Like. Like where you see the. The gradations of the light and it. That alone tells a story.

[Matt Koplik]

You know that painting that Ariel, the mermaid touches in part of your world when she says, what's a fire? And what. Why does it. What's the word burn? Y' all know that painting I'm talking about? I know it's that. It's that painting.

[James Soule]

I like that.

[Matt Koplik]

It's that. That's the lighting.

[James Soule]

Good reference.

[Matt Koplik]

Universal reference. I think that is a Rembrandt. I think that is a Rembrandt, by the way. Yeah. Think about it. Think about Ariel touching that painting. What's a fire? And why does it. What's the word burn? It's that painting. Okay, next up, we have sound design of a play, which is stereophonic, which we sat in the room as they were announcing the nominees, and I just went, this play was written to win this category.

[James Soule]

Sure. Like, oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

I think Ajani literally went, what could I write that would win the most random category of all time of the Tonys? Sound design of a play. I'm gonna write something that totally wins this.

[James Soule]

I mean, it must have to toggle between a lot of different kinds of design. Right? I mean, there's the recording stuff that has to happen in the studio itself. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So you haven't seen it yet, right?

[James Soule]

No, I haven't. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. All I'll say is this. There's a scene at the top of Act 1 that is a pure recording session. And you have Sarah Pigeon on the mic unable to hit this note. And it's all you're hearing is her vocal. You're not hearing anything else. Oh, and then she. And that's so cool. And she. Then she and Tapas Inca go off stage to have a conversation. And. And, But. There is a but. The sound guys in the sound booth, they turned the mic all the way up from the recording studio because the door is open. So they can. If they turn the mic up a lot, they can pick up what they're saying.

[James Soule]

Oh, what. That conversation is what's supposed to be a private conversation.

[Matt Koplik]

And so you don't see them, you only hear them have the conversation.

[James Soule]

This is the, this is the part of the conceit of the whole play, right? Yeah. You're getting this like, like this, this.

[Matt Koplik]

Fly on the wall.

[James Soule]

Yeah, fly on the wall for this experience that you would never have. Because we just get the albums right.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, and then, then she comes back, sings it, nails it and she, they. Then they play back her last take where she nails it with the music.

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

And you're like, yeah, when, when these.

[James Soule]

Design elements, look, I don't know anything about the craftsmanship of any of the. Of any of them, but when they can enhance, fit into, illuminate the tr. Like the dramaturgy. Yeah, that's so exciting to me. Yeah, like when it can really genuinely enhance, you know, whatever is already dictated on the page and it just lifts it to a whole nother level.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that 1000%. Next up, we have sound design of a musical, which was the Outsiders, which again, super thrilled by. When I. Yeah, when I walked out of the Outsiders, I was like, that. That has to win. Sound design. They do certain things.

[James Soule]

It's interesting when you can. When you are aware. When you become aware of it just as an audience member. Right. Where it kind of stands out to you in some way.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, if my grandma went to go see Outsiders, I don't think she'd walk out and go, I see why they want sound design. But I was there and there were certain moments that they had where I went. That is a really impressive moment.

[James Soule]

Yeah, especially. And not in like a self conscious way. I don't mean like, oh, like that's all you're thinking about, but just that again, like, there's an alignment with all of these design Components with what the experience of that's happening on stage.

[Matt Koplik]

The bit of the rumble that they did show in their performance is a good example of how they won lighting and sound. But there are many moments like that in the Outsiders, so just know that there was no way you could walk out of it and not go, that's winning sound design. What did we have after that? I think after that was. Oh, I think that. So that was the end of the pre telecast awards. Yes. And then we had our break, and then we had our opening number. James, who is our host this year?

[James Soule]

Ariana DeBose.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I want to give credit where it's due. I had one person write in one and say, we are so lucky to have Ariana DeBose as a host. She's fantastic. She genuinely loves the community and she's so talented. And I loved the opening number. Now, that is the only person who wrote that. I have a file of my screenshots of all the other people who wrote about it.

[James Soule]

Are you gonna read stuff that people Write?

[Matt Koplik]

It's almost 30 of them.

[James Soule]

Oh, gosh. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

I have. So I didn't get a chance to do all of the category. Categories. All of them. I read every single one, but I didn't categorize all of them. I have pre telecast stuff, which is about 20. I have 15 submissions on Donya Taymor's win. I have. I have 24 submissions on the Hell's Kitchen performance and Alicia Keys in general. And then I have 25 submissions on the Tony opening number and Ariana DeBose.

[James Soule]

As all these opinions makes me so happy.

[Matt Koplik]

This is the worst opening number I can remember. Utter crap. Please, please, please, can we get a new host next year? Insufferable. Main ceremony just started and I'm already missing the era of the Writers Guild strike. Ugh. Already annoyed by Ariana, and that disappoints me. Bring on the performances. We've all collectively moved on from Ariana DeBose now. Right. What the hell was that opening number? And then someone talked about. And why is Chasey only allowed in the lobby? Because he wasn't there. Ariana dubose's ability to make also a.

[James Soule]

Person who didn't know it was pre taped.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Ariana DeBose's ability to make everything about her is truly impressive. That is true. During the Chita Rivera segment, she goes, I literally wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for Chita Rivera. And I go, don't make me regret Cheetah Rivera's Life, Ariana, you don't get to make me go, oh, if only Chita Rivera didn't live. That's not. That's not okay.

[James Soule]

I think. I think if you have the memory of certain hosts in your mind, like you grew up watching certain hosts.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

It is such a high bar. Genuinely high bar. So I think back on, like, when Rosie o' Donnell hosted and it was the year that Patty, oh, Jennifer Holiday and Betty Buckley did that. And there was this revolving set thing that had the original ad designs from. From the shows that they are all originated. And then at some point, all four of them came down and sang together to, like, have a big finish. There's all the. There's several of the Neil Patrick Harris years where just the numbers are so well executed and they genuinely adhere to the thesis of. We're celebrating you all tonight. Theater goers, theater makers. We're here to, like. We're here to show the rest of this country what it is that happens, you know, within the. Within these, like, 20 blocks in New York City.

[Matt Koplik]

I miss the opening numbers that genuinely incorporated all the shows.

[James Soule]

Yeah, I love that the.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think we're gonna have a better opening number since Neil Patrick Harris is bigger. When they went from the Beacon back to Radio City Music Hall.

[James Soule]

Every show, not just the ones that were nominated, but every single show on Broadway that year.

[Matt Koplik]

And I mentioned like, Mamma Mia. I mentioned this with Isla Mel as well. It's worth it just for the shot of Deborah Messing alone at the end looking around going, oh, my God.

[James Soule]

But.

[Matt Koplik]

But it was. It was because it started with him doing once, but then incorporated Matilda and Kinky Bees and Pippin and everything.

[James Soule]

So all the, all the, all the shows of that season, the new musicals got. Got showcased, but. But also like Spider man came out.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. A bunch of shows. Chicago came out. A bunch of shows that were just on Broadway. Yeah, I would love it if we could do that. But it also includes. Include the plays. But sure, people are still trying to figure out how to incorporate the plays, but I think we can.

[James Soule]

All these decades.

[Matt Koplik]

I know, but we had it closer to right in the late 80s, early 90s. And I wish we would go back to those eras and figure it out again that way. Get people excited about those categories. Get people excited about design. I missed 2000 and 2001, I think had montages of the design nominees showing you the costumes and the lighting and the sets. The score. They had a thing about score.

[James Soule]

It's so it's the, like an educational.

[Matt Koplik]

Component A little bit. A little bit. But it doesn't feel educational. You just feel like you're in the room watching these people do their thing, and you're getting snippets of these shows in their actual theaters. And it's being filmed gorgeously. It's. That's the year of the lachiusa Wild Party and the Kiss Me K with Stokes and Marin Maisie and Contact.

[James Soule]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, just. Even if it's a five minute montage and you get. And they have interviews with people, just do it. I don't fucking care. I don't. I don't need all these bits. I don't need a 7 1/2 minute Hell's Kitchen performance. Give me four extra minutes and show me what makes set design so cool, right? Show me why sound design is important. And actually, you know what? The opening number showed us why sound design is important. Because you could barely hear what Ariana devos saying.

[James Soule]

We couldn't really understand.

[Matt Koplik]

You couldn't understand something about crashing on couches. And now you're here. Something like that.

[James Soule]

And the thing is, you know, whatever your listeners who wrote in what they think of that performance, I. I think the. The thing that a lot of us can agree on is just that it wasn't. It didn't feel for us. It didn't feel like it was for the theater makers or for the audiences. It. It was just.

[Matt Koplik]

It felt.

[James Soule]

It felt oddly muted.

[Matt Koplik]

The open, it was gaslighting because the lyrics about, like, it's about you tonight, and you came so far. The opening shot was a press clipping of Ariana DeBose is back as the third as host three times in a row. I'm like, I'm sorry, ma', am, do you think that you're Whoopi Goldberg and that this is actual headline news? You are. It was headline news for Playbill for a day, Deadline for a minute, and then you are times for, like, the lower corner. And, like, I think she's an incredibly talented individual, definitely.

[James Soule]

That's no question.

[Matt Koplik]

And I have been on record to say I would have voted for her for Summer over Lindsay Mendez for Carousel. And I hated Summer. But I watched. I watched Ariana debose on her tiny lesbian shoulders carry that thing for an hour and 45 minutes, my lord. And that's a show that had Lachanze in it, who I love. But Ariana DeBose was the reason I walked out of that theater, not burning the lump on 10 down to the ground.

[James Soule]

I missed Summer. I didn't see it at all.

[Matt Koplik]

Have you seen a jukebox?

[James Soule]

Maybe I'll bootleg it.

[Matt Koplik]

Go for it. Have you seen any jukebox musical? James, Any hard to rock and roll? A bio jukebox musical, though?

[James Soule]

Oh, no, I think I missed them.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[James Soule]

Well, I generally bypass them for whatever reason.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, there, there are two trends that you'll find in them. Usually if it's. If it's a bio jukebox musical about a man, he comes to find that fame and fortune is taking him away from the things that are important in life, like family and his kids. And either he gets back to it or he realizes it too late because one of his kids commits suicide like Jersey Boys or Ain't Too Proud.

[James Soule]

And then if Beautiful Noise touch on all that, sort of.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, without the suicide. But yes, it definitely is like, hey, Neil diamond, your family's important too. They try to have the twist on it because, you know, of his health and whatnot. But it's very much like, what about the ladies? So also, here's if it's a woman is post beautiful. The trend with female centered bio jukebox musicals are our leading lady doesn't really have any flaws. She miss. She chooses the wrong romantic partner for a while. But don't worry, she's gonna dump him before the curtain comes down. Tina Summer, beautiful Cher show. Oh, yeah, she dumps Sunny before he goes and dies on that slope.

[James Soule]

Got it. Okay. Yeah, I. I feel kind of bad. I feel like I should be more well versed in these bio musicals, jukebox musicals, just because they're, they're, they're on Broadway. But I somehow seem to miss them all.

[Matt Koplik]

To quote Debbie Reynolds in Singing in the Rain, if you've seen one, you've seen them all. Sometimes they surprise you. Like, Jersey Boys was genuinely fantastic.

[James Soule]

I did see Jersey Boys. Yes, that Jersey Boys in the original, with the original cast.

[Matt Koplik]

So did I. Yeah, Jersey Boys was genuinely exciting and fun. And also it's because the four seasons were honest with the material that they gave the book writers because no one. Yeah, no one knew that show was gonna go anywhere. And so they were just like telling all of their versions of the story and it's like actual drama and character flaws, tension and. Yeah, because those four. Four seasons, they all kind of suck at different points.

[James Soule]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Some of them for many points, super flawed and, and makes it so compelling to watch. Beautiful has a lot of things going for it, but it is very much like Carole King doesn't really have flaws. She just doesn't have a lot of confidence and she marries a very flawed man who brings her down for a while. But eventually they divorce and she becomes.

[James Soule]

A super and she becomes a superstar.

[Matt Koplik]

In the last 20 minutes.

[James Soule]

And then also the lesson is like, cut out the dead weight and you can become a star. Got it.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Yeah. But, you know, but he did bring her some music. He brought her some nice words. But post beautiful. It's become, you know. Oh, this is a way for your brand and your catalog to make a whole bunch of new money.

[James Soule]

Right. And there's a lot of vanity involved.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. Well, because the estates of those artists produce the shows now. So you can't like, ain't too. Ain't you proud. The only temptation who comes off well is the one who's still alive.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Whose memoir is the one they used for the source of their book. It's. Well, but it's why I don't. I'm not excited about any bio jukebox musicals anymore because the estates produce Motown.

[James Soule]

I saw Motown.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, sure.

[James Soule]

That's a bio musical.

[Matt Koplik]

The one that.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The one that Barry Gordy.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Produce and. And wants you to believe that he was actually the good guy.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Right, sure.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

So it doesn't. That's not very far off from the. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

John Mulaney was more accurate with Barry Gordy's legacy in 10 seconds of a stand up than that entire show Motown was.

[James Soule]

That's so funny.

[Matt Koplik]

You're gonna pay me a whole 75 cents for my song, Mr. Gordy. Wow. Where do I sign? Like that is. That is John Mulaney's joke. And Motown wouldn't even touch that joke with a 30 foot pole. So Ariana did her number and no one liked it. Then we go right into leading actor in a play which went to Jeremy Strong. Surprising. Not me, but many a person, really. I. There was a lot. So there was a lot of talk about Pearly victorious about how that was gonna go, especially since the PBS broadcast came out.

[James Soule]

Leslie Jr. Was fantastic in that role.

[Matt Koplik]

He was wonderful. He's my second choice. And I think Pearly was the first genuine delight of the season. And so there was a lot of love for it. It's sort of like I loved it.

[James Soule]

It was really, really so well done.

[Matt Koplik]

My only issue with Pearly is that I don't find Kenny Leon to be the most inventive director in terms of staging. And that is a farce. So there were some stage pictures where you needed clever comedic staging.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

That is not what Kenny do. What Kenny does. Is he. Sorry. He tends to cast really well. Yes, not always, but often cast really well. And then trust.

[James Soule]

This was cast, I thought, exceptionally well.

[Matt Koplik]

And then trusts his actors to explore.

[James Soule]

And then figure it out and he.

[Matt Koplik]

Tightens the reins from there. But. And for a lot of Pearly, that was what happened.

[James Soule]

But there were moments that could have been different. I mean, because if we're talking about farce, right, talking about a certain kind of comedy, would the set. Would some sort of difference in the set could potentially have been a factor as far as the staging is concerned?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't a funny set, but it did have that beautiful reveal of the church at the end, so we take a bit of it. But there was a lot of talk of, like, could Pearly come in and really do well, especially with Leslie and Kara and revival. And I really thought that Cara was their best shot at anything, and it was down to her and Sarah Pidgeon. And I've been on record on this podcast to say that, like, every other day I changed my mind. I was like, on Monday, I said it was Kara. On Tuesday, I thought it was Sarah.

[James Soule]

Which just means embarrassment of riches, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[James Soule]

It's just like you're choosing between A plus and A plus.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And I wouldn't have been mad about either of them. Ultimately. I think it was like 10 minutes before that, before they announced that category, I decided it was Kara because I said to myself, it's a way to honor Pearly Victorious if they're not going to give it revival. And that's also what I feel about Jeremy with Enemy of the People, a very successful revival, critically praised, huge hit. I loved it. But they weren't going to win Revival. It was going to go to Appropriate. So I was like, well, we can give it to Jeremy because he's the first face of this thing, and he's kind of the reason why it's a financial success.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Amy Herzog and Sam Goldberg, also.

[James Soule]

He's a really good actor. I haven't seen any of the people.

[Matt Koplik]

But he was great. I love it. Everyone was great in Enemies. He was. He was great in it. And I know he's annoying, but, like, he's.

[James Soule]

I know. He's a very serious actor.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, he did. But, yeah, Jeremy wins. And then Will Brill won for featured actor in a play. And I think I picked him in the predictions with the theater lovers because I said, of all the performances in that category, his was like a true representation of a featured performance. He comes on every now and Then just pees all over the stage and makes you remember and love him. And then goes, yeah, but then comes back and then he goes, yeah, Eli Gel.

[James Soule]

Because there were two other actors from.

[Matt Koplik]

Eli Gel whose character is very much sort of like in the peripheral for the first half, but then becomes the center in the second half. And I felt that could have been a problem for voters with him because you might walk out of that show thinking of him as the lead, which would be incorrect, but because of how the last hour and a half goes, and he's very much the center of it.

[James Soule]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

You could think that. And then Tapas Inca is fantastic. And I'm so glad that he got nominated because I thought his character was such a douche that it would be difficult for people to nominate him. I think it's also that that character is such a prick, people wouldn't vote for him. But he. He nails the assignment, which is such.

[James Soule]

A reminder that, like, you know, these are all human beings that make these decisions in terms of nominations and votes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

They all have. We. We all have our biases and we all have our weird hang ups about things that explain why we like things and why we like certain things and then why we don't like certain things.

[Matt Koplik]

It's why no one's ever nominated Ellen and Miss Saigon for anything. For anything.

[James Soule]

No matter what song she sings, no matter what after Kim leaves, no matter what song that they. They put in there.

[Matt Koplik]

Whatever version of doesn't matter, nobody wants it, Nobody cares. Yeah. I nominate her for biggest fucking dummy of the world. As I said in our last episode.

[James Soule]

We should campaign for that award, for that Tony Award. Biggest dummy character in a most outstanding dummy character, musical or play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Present. I think that's. That's. There'll be a new category for my categories that don't exist, and it'll be presented by Ellen in Missigon. Just my. You know, my husband has ptsd. He wakes up in the middle of the night screaming some other woman's name. But we're okay for like, for two years.

[James Soule]

For years.

[Matt Koplik]

For years.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But we're on good grounds. Yeah, we're totally on good grounds. Oh, he completely lied to me about what happened in Vietnam. It's okay. We're on good grounds. We're fine. We're totally great. It's gonna be amazing. That's why.

[James Soule]

Let me sing a song about it now.

[Matt Koplik]

Let me sing a song about how everything's different now that I've seen the face of the woman my husband loves before me. It's okay. It's all good. It's all fine. It's all fine. That's why it's Kim's chess move, because she's like, it's not fine. And with one thing, I'm gonna make your entire house of cards fall down and your life is over.

[James Soule]

Okay, wait, wait.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, Sorry.

[James Soule]

Moving on back to Will Brill. Wonderful actor.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he's so good in it.

[James Soule]

He. And, you know, talk about range again. I haven't seen Sarah Phonics, so I can't wait to see it. But he plays Roy Cohn in Fellow Travelers, and he is terrifying, frightening.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I bet.

[James Soule]

Such a good actor.

[Matt Koplik]

Such a good actor. And he's fantastic in stereophonic. They all are. He's got a whole monologue about houseboats that just has everyone in the palm of his hand. Then we have Kara Youngke for featured actress in a play. Thrilled. She gave a wonderful speech. Looked like money. She looked like money. Oh, my God.

[James Soule]

The dress looked like royalty. Gave an amazing speech. Her father was sitting right next to her. And that story about her dad. What was it last year when they were all in the rainbow Room and isn't her dad. Doesn't her dad work in the Rainbow Room? And so it was this thing of, like, this. I don't know, this. This amazing moment. I don't know. A lot of things coming together all at once.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Somebody wrote in the messages for me, his heart stopped beating.

[James Soule]

Didn't it?

[Matt Koplik]

Which is one of my favorite moments in a show this year is when she comes in to sign the deed. And first of all, can't walk in the heels. Love it. And she's trying to talk about the family member who died. Yeah. And she's like. Died of a heart attack. He was shy. His heart stopped beating.

[James Soule]

Did it?

[Matt Koplik]

It's so good. Great line.

[James Soule]

Also context with her. I mean, what? Two. Not. This is her third consecutive nomination in this category.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Every year.

[James Soule]

I mean, come on.

[Matt Koplik]

For very different roles. Like, she's proven her versatility. I'm. I'm looking forward to seeing what she does next.

[James Soule]

I.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, she's becoming. Quickly becoming an actress for me. I'm like, I will see anything you do now because it's.

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh, it'll be worth it. I wholeheartedly agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Then stereophonic. One Direction of a play. Which makes sense. This was an. Okay. This was another category for me where I was like, there's not a. There's not a bum to be found. Would I have personally put In Sam Gold for Enemy the People Over. Kenny Leon for Pearly. Victorious. Yes. Am I mad Kenny Leon is in there? No. Like, I have my one caveat with his direction with Pearl Eve. Overall, wonderful work. Because then we also have Whitney White for Ja Jaw's African Hairbraicing. Fucking delightful. Lila Neugebauer for Appropriate. Wonderful. We have Ann Kaufman for Mary Jane. Wonderful. And we have Daniel Ockin for Stereophonic. Amazing. Like, yeah, all of them. I'm like, can we all just sit around and drink together? Because I love this group. Yeah, you're all my new best friends. We're going to Aspen tomorrow.

[James Soule]

I mean, smart points of view, but also, like the ability to manage all the basic things as a director. Right. I mean, what. What is staging even? You know, what is casting even? Right, yeah. So just all around, multi skilled folks and.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Alicia Keys came in and she said, you should vote for Camille A. Brown in this category. And I said, she's not nominated, Alicia. And Alicia said, it's okay. I've got Jay Z in the lobby waiting for me. So let's talk about that stereo, about that Hell's Kitchen performance. First major performance of the night.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

90 minutes long.

[James Soule]

I guess it definitely. I guess it felt.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was.

[James Soule]

Felt a little bit longer than it actually was.

[Matt Koplik]

There was the first half of the performance, which started with the opening number and then going straight into Keisha Lewis. No. When. No. Went into Shoshana and Brandon. Victor Dixon.

[James Soule]

No, I think it went to Keisha Lewis first.

[Matt Koplik]

Went to Keisha Lewis and then Shoshana and Brandon.

[James Soule]

Then Alicia came out. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because then there was like the button. And then Alicia came out.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So when the button happened, we all looked at each other and I said, I call that performance Everything but the Hell's Kitchen Sink. Because it was. Because it was just. It was just everything there. It was, it was.

[James Soule]

It was the buckets.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was the. It was the cutting. It was the kind of medley I hate because they were like. Like, let's just completely throw everything on stage.

[James Soule]

And there was scaffolding. Right. So there were dancers at different levels. So it was. There was a lot, as you said.

[Matt Koplik]

Didn't know where to look.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Messy, messy, messy. Then Alicia comes out and adds another four and a half minutes to the performance by singing Empire State of Mind, which is how the show also ends, which I think is a total cop out. Similar from the New York, New York playbook of hey, you've been waiting for.

[James Soule]

This song all night kind of thing.

[Matt Koplik]

You have been Tepid all night long. We know that there have been a million plot points and no conclusions and no character development and nothing makes sense.

[James Soule]

So here's a bone.

[Matt Koplik]

But here. Here is a New York anthem to take you out into the streets on. So you go on a big high. It's like going on a terribly awkward first date, but the sex is great. And you go, oh, my God, I think I like him.

[James Soule]

Isn't there that line in Gypsy? If you like, you give them a good finale, they'll forgive anything? Or something like that.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think that's in Gypsy, but it's in something actually. Fun fact. I know that I read an interview with Andrew Reynolds where he talked about this with Jack o' Brien from being in Hairspray, because Jack o' Brien would come in every now and then to sort of clean up and give notes. And I think Andrew was link, or he was the link understudy, and they were. Jack was basically giving a note about. Because by that point, HairSpray was like five years into the run, so they weren't getting the cream of the crop to sit in the audience every night. And Jack was like, if the show is going only okay, he's like, do not stress. Don't pushed. Like, just keep going for it. He goes, give your all at the end because you can't stop the beat. It's custom made to send them out on a high. And if you give that your all, they will walk out happy.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, so if, like, if they don't jump to their feet after Good Morning Baltimore, don't panic. If they're not screaming at the end of welcome to the 60s, don't panic. Just steady the training.

[James Soule]

That's wise advice, because also that song, that finale is designed Foolproof.

[Matt Koplik]

Foolproof. He's like, as long as you really pummel that finale, you're fine. And that is what New York, New York did. That is what Hell's Kitchen does. And I sat there knowing what they were doing, and I was like, I'm not buying. I know. I go. I know.

[James Soule]

They all everyone around for your trickery.

[Matt Koplik]

I walk, okay? I walked out of New York to New York. It was right before they opened. Right before they opened, I walked out of New York, New York. And someone who is a pretty discerning person, but granted, they were like, semi connected to the production texted me on Instagram and was like, I think the show's gonna run for 10 years. Because it's like such a love letter to the city. And I Said, okay, blank. I'm gonna let you have that. And then we'll talk again in June. And they closed that July, Hell's Kitchen. It's gonna run a little bit longer. It's doing very well right now.

[James Soule]

Yeah, it's selling pretty well.

[Matt Koplik]

But I have not spoken to a single person who has been fulfilled by it. So I think it's selling right now. I think eventually, same thing with Back to the Future. Like, word of mouth will catch up, and it won't be the exciting new thing on the block. It didn't win the Tonys. They wanted to win. And people will just realize, oh, no, this show isn't exciting. It just ends on the anthem that.

[James Soule]

We know, we all love and know.

[Matt Koplik]

And of course, Alicia comes out with her millions of fans singing, going, and getting the entire audience to their feet. That one white dude who I'm pretty sure is a producer of the show, there's a shot of him getting up and being like, come on, get up. And I'm like, go fuck yourself. I'll stand if I choose to. It is America, and this is Pride Month, and I'm an American homosexual. You do not. Tell me, Mr. Sir, when I stand up, I will stand for the queens that I have, not for your queen.

[James Soule]

Amen.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. I stood for Audra. I will not stand for you and Stokes.

[James Soule]

Stokes got a standing over.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, did he?

[James Soule]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That's what I'm talking about. All right, so that's the Hell's Kitchen before performance. So I don't remember. Sorry. I also don't remember exactly the order of all the performances. I just know it was Hell's Kitchen and then I think it was Illinois. Or was it Merrily? I can't recall.

[James Soule]

Yeah, I can't remember either. I always love a cute little exit cam. I like that they had the exit cam off to the side so you can see all the performers run off. I enjoyed that.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm gonna go to the CBS YouTube channel and see in what order do they have.

[James Soule]

Wait, did you say Illinois was next?

[Matt Koplik]

I think Illinois was next.

[James Soule]

I think you might be right about that.

[Matt Koplik]

So let me confirm, first of all, we have Daniel Ockin winning for direction of a play, which is wonderful.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

We have Carrie Young, Will Brill.

[James Soule]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

No, Tommy was next. Tommy was next performance. What did you think of Tommy? Did you see Tommy on the Broadway?

[James Soule]

So the original production was the second Broadway show that I ever saw.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, you're famously 49.

[James Soule]

It was at the Saint. It was at the Saint James. Theater notice. I'm just glossing over that. I'm not even acknowledging that you said that it was at the St. James. It was. I was in, like, the last row of the. Because there's two balconies, right?

[Matt Koplik]

The mezz and the balcony.

[James Soule]

Yeah, I was in the last row of the balcony. And I still have these vivid, vivid memories of it because the design was. Was strikingly good. And they actually had a pinball machine, like you could see. You can make out. And it was like. And. And. And it was so colorful and like, sort of explosively so. Right. Like, just. It grabbed all. Like, it sort of attacked all the senses in the best way. So I've been hesitant to see this revival. I. I didn't love the number from last night, but I was. I'm wondering if it's mostly because of the camera work.

[Matt Koplik]

So let's. Let's just say it now. The camera work. The camera work last night was awful. There were two numbers where I thought it kind of worked.

[James Soule]

It was very confusing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There were only two numbers last night where I thought it kind of worked. Not fully, just kind of. One was Illinois and the other. And the other was the Outsiders. I think that the Outsiders was.

[James Soule]

The cabaret stuff was. Was pretty good.

[Matt Koplik]

It was very.

[James Soule]

Maybe they paid more money to be able to get some more variety of shots.

[Matt Koplik]

It was very close up on Eddie, which is a mistake.

[James Soule]

Well, he is a film actor.

[Matt Koplik]

You wouldn't know it from last night. And I actually. I like him. I like him as an actor.

[James Soule]

I. Oh, sure, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Do not like his performance in Cavalry.

[James Soule]

Very controversial. Right. And yes, in this production, the Illinois number, I mean, maybe we're jumping ahead, but I actually loved the fact that there were some close ups. The occasional close up, because I sat far away, relatively far away when I saw it. And just to be able to read their faces a little bit more was just so affecting.

[Matt Koplik]

It shows you that dancers are actors or can be anyway, in the same way that singers can be actors. Yeah. Illinois has some great dancing actors acting dancers. Like, it's. You watch Ricky Uveda's face in that number and you're like, should have been nominated. We all know you should have been. And this is just proving it. And we'll get to that in a second. But yeah, Tommy, the performance for me is kind of indicative of what the show is at the Nederlander. It is a lot of energy. The ensemble doing the Lord's work. Very well sung. I did not get to see the original production. I've watched it but not live. And I think it's also.

[James Soule]

A lot of the designers are different.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's a new design team, but it's the same director and different choreographer. Yes, different. It's a very.

[James Soule]

Wayne Cilento directed the original.

[Matt Koplik]

Wayne Cilento choreographed the original.

[James Soule]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Choreographed, yes.

[James Soule]

Macduff, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

This one is Lauren Lotaro, and I. I'll say, I hate her choreography in this Tommy. It's. It's just. And you. Unfortunate, but you can see it in the performance. It's just. It's everything all at once, all the time.

[James Soule]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's 11 out of 10. Energy, all the. There's no build to anything. There's no character to anything. There's no style. There's no era to it. Wayne Cilento's choreography in the original, you can watch it. Like, it's great, but it's not like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Or at least not all the time. There's weird, jerky things to it, and it builds. And Wayne is not one of our greatest choreographers of all time. He has proven that since Tommy with shit like that garbage Sweet Charity choreography he had.

[James Soule]

But, well, I mean, he doesn't ever have to work again because, you know, with Wicked.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Money off, Wicked all the time. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, look at his choreography for Brotherhood and Man from the Matthew Broderick, how to Succeed. Like, that's fantastic.

[James Soule]

That's a great number.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a great number. And there's nothing that impressive about what they're doing. It's just built from character and story.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

There's nothing like that in this current Tommy. It's just like, toss, throw, slide all the time.

[James Soule]

And I think. And look, I was not discerning enough to really be able to tell this kind of thing when I saw it in high school. But I do. I do think that that. And looking. Thinking back to these. These memories that I have from. From long ago, I do feel like everything about was much more cohesive, designed to choreography, to direction. And, you know, interestingly enough, there were, because maybe projection technology wasn't what it is now. There was still a lot more reliance on practical effects and practical kind of lighting effects and things like that. And there was aerial work in it. Like, Tommy makes an entrance flying in. Yeah. And I still remember this moment, this giant. Not this giant in the second act, this pinball machine comes out from the floor, the center of the floor of the St. James Theater, the stage, and he's riding it. It's like a bucking bronco kind of thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You can watch footage of it on.

[James Soule]

YouTube and then these giant flames come up from the side of the stage. I still remember feeling it all the way up in the last row of the balcony. And I just have these very sacred memories of that experience. And so I've been. Again, I've been hesitant to.

[Matt Koplik]

You're not alone. Listen, everyone I know who have seen this Tommy, who saw the original, like, where that original was really seminal to them, they have not been thrilled with this production. The people I know who've been thrilled with this production have either not really been familiar with Tommy or really are, like, in love with the album, maybe even the movie, but not necessarily the stage show. Those who are in love with the stage show and that original production have not been thrilled with this. And I talked about this when I did my rankings as well, from everything I've watched, both on YouTube and then @ the library, and all the photos of this original Tommy. It was very bold and colorful and used pop art as its really main inspiration. Inspiration. This one. It's you. You can see it on the telecast. Like, their color scheme is basically black, white, gray, and then dehydrated piss yellow. I don't know why that has been decided as, like, the popping color. Why they chose that. I don't know. It's. It's the other thing that. It's not exciting.

[James Soule]

It's not bizarre.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[James Soule]

I don't know if bizarre is the right word. But. But seeing some of the design elements, the physical design elements on the. And the number in the number last night. So the pinball machines are these sort of, like, frames.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I just thought it's all implication.

[James Soule]

What? Why? What is that? Why? I just. It just created more questions.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sure the desk could come out and explain it and you'd be like, okay, sure, I get it now. But, like. Sure. The majority of.

[James Soule]

I mean, he's a very smart director and he's very. I mean, he's done a lot of his stuff that I love.

[Matt Koplik]

He's done some great stuff. I have not been thrilled with him probably since Jersey Boys, but he had. But like.

[James Soule]

Like that revival of how to Succeed. I saw it at the Kennedy Center. I mean, it was.

[Matt Koplik]

It was good.

[James Soule]

And he. And he used design in a way that we've talked about earlier, where it really. It becomes a part of the dramaturgy.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And let's talk about another time where Vicky Clark just comes in and has. Oh, my God, ten minutes and just. Just does. Does the thing to quote Ms. DeBose. Victoria Clark did the thing, but that was the one.

[James Soule]

That was a good joke she had last night about that, about the three hours about her.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure, sure.

[James Soule]

I welcome it. I welcomed that joke.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm welcoming of her owning it and making it a bit. Now, I am not here for the people who claim it was always meant to be camp. No. She thought she was serving at the BAFTAs. And then the response was such that she had a choice. She could hold her ground and say, I worked really hard and you're all being mean, or she could lean in. She's a smart girl. It's why she's gotten this far. So she leaned in. And I'm always gonna applaud that, especially like, you're gonna fuck up. We're all gonna fuck up. We're gonna make a big choice. It's not gonna work.

[James Soule]

Especially if I'm hosting every award show.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, at some point, the entire creative team of Lempicka could take a Note from Ariana DeBose because they wrote a two and a half hour. Angela Bassett did the thing. And rather than go, you know what? That's what we did. I hope you like it. If not, whatever. No, instead they went, we wrote Casablanca, the musical. We wrote Porgy and Bess. We wrote the Nutcracker. How dare you not recognize our brilliance?

[James Soule]

Oh, and like, you know, right. Why don't you see it?

[Matt Koplik]

Not only why don't you see it, but you're problematic. And if you don't see it, well, this wasn't for you. Don't be exclusive. Broadway's for everyone and people cannot like it. And if they give you a good reason for not liking it, maybe hold onto it for a second, it'll make you better down the road. If you wake up every day thinking you're fully formed, you can kindly fuck all the way off. I'm not fully formed. Yeah.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

James is gonna say things to me off blank that's gonna make me break down tonight, and then I'll get better tomorrow.

[James Soule]

Thinking of those things now.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, Tommy. That was Tommy. What else we have.

[James Soule]

He has an interesting voice too. I will say that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

The lead, the actor playing, playing Tommy, it's not rock.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like very classic musical theater. It's a very rich baritone and I liked it.

[James Soule]

I liked the quality of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. I think what makes it disconcerting is he's got such a boyish look.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes, he does. Very handsome.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But you know when. When you look like the kid from Heartstopper. And you sound like Patrick Wilson. It's very like, what's going on? Joe Locke. That's who it is.

[James Soule]

Interesting juxtaposition.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Keisha Lewis then wins featured actress in a musical.

[James Soule]

Great speech.

[Matt Koplik]

Great speech.

[James Soule]

Great speech.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone was texting her. We loved it.

[James Soule]

And I. I don't give up. I mean, come on, you know, anything like that, I'll take whenever it's. Whenever it's an actor and especially her context. Right. She's been in this business for what she said 40 years from stories that other people that I know that have worked with her have told me, you know, there's been a lot of ups, a lot of downs. And here is this amazing, you know, other chapter that we witnessed last night.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Listen, she hasn't been a saint. None of us have. But she's been around forever. She's given us more than you realize. She's the original Asaka in Once on this Island. I know we all know Lillia Swight from the Tony performance, but it's Keisha on the cast album. And so this was one where somebody wrote in and said that Keisha won because Hell's Kitchen is an open ended run and Merrily Closes in July. And that's why Lindsay didn't win. And they also said that that's the reason why Danya won director and why Maria Friedman didn't. And this is a moment where I'm gonna say, if you're a listener of this podcast and you wrote that, I am so sorry for what I'm about to say. That is a dumb opinion because it has no basis in any. Anything other than the fact that you're mad Maria and Lindsey didn't win. There are other reasons for it. The bottom line of all of it is enough voters just liked Keisha more. They liked her performance more. And I have. And I don't know if this person has seen all of these performances and all these musicals. I will say when I saw Hell's Kitchen at the public and I was not enjoying myself, Keisha came on stage and I went, this woman knows what she's doing. And I want more of this energy the entire time. And I felt that again on Broadway. Lindsay, I enjoyed her in Merrily. I actually liked her understudy more, but I enjoy Lindsay also.

[James Soule]

Lindsay's very talented, but there's all.

[Matt Koplik]

You can't. You also can't deny, like, when someone's won before and someone hasn't, especially with Keisha's narrative of being around and has and like the moment Is her right now. Why wouldn't you want to vote for her?

[James Soule]

Also, even things like something you just described about, like the context of the experience of watching the show, she comes on, you said, and just kind of lights up the stage. That was maybe a bit more muted before. And so the contribution she's making also factors in to a vote.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Keisha comes on, you go, oh, an adult has entered the chat.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

A real professional has. And Lindsay does a lovely job in Merrily. But it is a little hard to discern in that trio where it's all. It's very much sort of about their chemistry. And I know some people are like, oh, poor Lindsay. She's the only one of the three that didn't win. I'm like, well, also, Daniel has Franklin Shepard Inc. So he's got a big moment to sell what he's doing. It's also his first nomination after having done a lot of shows on Broadway. Has never complained once about being. Not being nominated.

[James Soule]

Seems to really love theater.

[Matt Koplik]

He's.

[James Soule]

And being here in New York doing a show.

[Matt Koplik]

He's a movie star. But we do. We do think of him as part of the community because he keeps coming back and doing all these different things.

[James Soule]

Lovely with everybody.

[Matt Koplik]

He was lovely to me when I was 13, I'll say that. So lovely when I met him that one time in the bathroom at that restaurant that's now the BLT on 57th Street. 57th and Lex, I think.

[James Soule]

Did you talk to him in the bathroom?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure did. Oh, I love the courage, James. Sol.

[James Soule]

I love the courage and the bravery.

[Matt Koplik]

The mother courage, James. So let me tell you this one story. And then we got to do a break, and then we'll come back.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

It was my parents wedding anniversary. I was 13 years old. Chamber of Secrets was about to come out in theaters, and clearly he was in town doing press for it. Because my parents anniversary, they're divorced now, but it was in the summer. But my grandmother, the one who's 100 now, was out of town at the time. She came back in September and she was like, I'm taking you to dinner for your anniversary. And I got to go. And it was this restaurant. I don't know what it was then. Now it's the BLT on 57th between Lexington and Park. And we go there, and I remember being so annoyed because it was like this adulty restaurant. So I was gonna be the only kid there. Halfway through a meal, I look across and I see there's Daniel Radcliffe, the. With his parents. And what Looks like a bodyguard. And my mom is like, you know what you should do? You should send him a dessert. Because adults send each other drinks all the time. And I was like, that's what they do when they want to date each other. I'm 13. He's 15. I don't think that's how this is gonna work. So what I do is I just sort of. I enjoy our meal. And then at one point, I see he goes up to get to the bathroom with his.

[James Soule]

His bodyguard.

[Matt Koplik]

His bodyguard? Yeah. And I'm like, this is like a. It's an intimate, Ish restaurant.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Not a lot of people like there to, like, see and be seen, and no one's bothering him. But I was like, okay. I got up, go into the bathroom. And the one thing I remembered about him was that he liked the Simpsons, and I like the Simpsons. And I didn't know how I was gonna start anything, but I believe his body.

[James Soule]

Going through your mind, as you were. I was like, how do I. Bathroom?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I was like, how do I. But somehow his bodyguard said something to me. I don't remember what, but I remember I said something along the lines of, like, a response regarding the Simpsons. And I remember Daniel looking at me going, like, you like the Simpsons? Because I guess maybe they aren't as big a deal in the UK as they are here. Or at least they weren't in 2003.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

I was like, oh, my God, I love it. And I was, like, referencing certain episodes and all this stuff. And he's like, oh, my God, this.

[James Soule]

Is all in the bathroom.

[Matt Koplik]

All in the bathroom. And we talked and we talked about it for, like, maybe two minutes. He said, what's your name? Matt. He goes, oh, cool. Cool. Lovely. He goes back to his table. I go back to mine. They finished their meal, like, 45 minutes before we do. So they're getting up to leave, and he comes over, shakes my hand and says, matt, it was so nice to meet you, and leaves.

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

And I haven't.

[James Soule]

A lovely young man.

[Matt Koplik]

And I haven't shown. I haven't watched that hand since then.

[James Soule]

Since 2003. I wouldn't either.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[James Soule]

But with everybody backstage, like, he.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, he's one. No, he's. He's a class act. And then Jonathan, like, is the center of that show. And also, like, around forever and the big emotional core. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I get why Lindsay did. I also got why Maria didn't win. And I'll talk about that in a second as well. But Keisha's win makes sense to me.

[James Soule]

Yeah, she.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It is a. It is a potent, potent performance. And it was really down to her Bebe and Lindsay. But Bebe also has two Tony Awards, and while she and Steven Skybell walk away with the show.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And honestly, my vote probably would have been Steven over Daniel, but Daniel was very much my second with a bullet.

[James Soule]

Actually, those two are the. The least controversial, non controversial elements of Cabaret.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the thing. Everyone agrees that Ste and BB walk away with the show, and that was why I thought they had. They both kind of had a shot. But I think ultimately people were not liking Cabaret enough that they couldn't bring themselves to vote for them. And also, again, BB's got two, Keisha's got none.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But yeah, Keisha, Daniel. Daniel gave a lovely speech and looked so good. His little purple touch.

[James Soule]

Such a great speech too. And actually in line with stuff we've already said about him where, you know, it was a celebration and an appreciation for the community.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And then Merrily I wrote what a.

[James Soule]

Weird Jason Alexander Mustard commercial. Oh, there was some weird commercial where he. Where he was in drag for a lot of it. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Man's gotta eat. Then I think Merily did a performance according to CBS's YouTube channel. Anyway, it looks like Merilee was next.

[James Soule]

Have.

[Matt Koplik]

Have you seen this revival?

[James Soule]

I haven't, and I feel bad about it because I do love the show. I think the actors in it are spectacular. I just don't have.

[Matt Koplik]

Then you'll love this revival.

[James Soule]

I mean, it's only playing for like, a couple more weeks.

[Matt Koplik]

I personally think that this revival is a little overpraised. It is very good, and they make a lot of Merrily work better than it has before. A lot of credit for that also goes to James Lapine, who really helped reshape that script in the 80s and early years.

[James Soule]

No other show has been in development for as long as Merrily Rolling off has been in development.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, Toy, I don't like this narrative. Like, Maria Friedman figured out how to fix it. I'm like, it's not the same script it was in 1982.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. It's changed so much.

[James Soule]

We also have to remember that, you know, the. One of the things that a lot of people agree on is that the way that it was directed, the way that it was presented as an experience. Right. With the names on the T shirts and things like that, that those were hard to follow as part of story, as elements of storytelling.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think part of it is. We are all more aware and comfortable with Merrily over the years. We just understand it.

[James Soule]

Yeah, totally.

[Matt Koplik]

So that helps us going into it.

[James Soule]

We know the conceit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that show is still flawed. It's got continuity errors up the butt. But, like, if you try to make a timeline of Gussie and Frank's affair, you'll be lost because the show changes that narrative every other scene. If you want to make a. If you want to find a timeline of Mary's alcoholism, they claim at one point that it started the day that Franklin came back. But then there's also references of, like, her having issues when she was younger. Like, it's just. They don't know what to do. It's also the most simplistic view of professional artistry and compromise I've ever seen. It's like the moment you make a single change to anything you're working on, you. You've sold out.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I also think.

[James Soule]

Either or. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I talked about this with the theater lovers. I also think it's hilarious that in the era that Merrily Starts, Frank is considered a sellout for going to Hollywood when it's the 1970s, arguably one of the best decades for Hollywood artistry, for filmmaking.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Charlie's like, come back to the theater. I'm like, oh, the theater in the 1970s. One of the worst decades it's ever had outside of the Sondheim oeuvre. Oeuvre. Like, really? Okay. So it's just hilarious to me, like, oh. So should Franklin stay in Hollywood where they're doing the Godfather, Taxi Driver, One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, Annie Hall, Julia, Star Wars? Or should you go back to Broadway where they're doing I Love My Wife and the Lieutenant? The Lieutenant Mack and Mabel.

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, no. You tell me. Ballroom. You tell me.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Two gentlemen of Veronica.

[James Soule]

He is reductive.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Soule]

In terms of. Yeah. What it means to be a sellout. What it means to be a true artist. Absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

But their Tony performance was good because it showed their chemistry, which is what it's all about. And the way they do that number is very, very lovely.

[James Soule]

Totally. And. And actually. And the way they do that number is completely informed by their chemistry.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And you see them do all these bits, and it's. It's. Yeah, it's all. It's all very. It's a good representation of that show. And there are some performances in the production that I find to be lacking, and they were not in that number.

[James Soule]

I've Heard you mention that in other episodes.

[Matt Koplik]

There's one performance that's just objectively terrible.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And then two that I find to be.

[James Soule]

You can tell me offline.

[Matt Koplik]

I will tell you offline. And then there are two that I find to be kind of really, really just one. One that's sort of half baked. And I do think that those. At least the one performance that's objectively terrible, I do think that that contributed to Maria not winning.

[James Soule]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I've talked about this a lot and we were saying this earlier about Kenny. Like, part of the job of directing is casting, getting the right people in the roles and then guiding them to give the best performance they can. And when you have members of your company that stick out like a sore thumb, wow. You can't blame the actor for getting cast. You blame the director for not recognizing it. Yeah. And there are also some staging moments in Merrily that are kind of like the ending of Not a Day Goes by ends with Beth on her knees, Medea style, being like, till the day is go by. And I'm like, ma', am, this is a Wendy's.

[James Soule]

Oh, wow. Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There are a couple of other weird staging moments like that. I also think by making Frank Jr not pronounce his R's so he seems cuter to us, turned off enough Tony voters like myself to say, you have the audacity to bring a child onto my stage, and then you make him even more insufferable because he can't pronounce his R's like a fucking idiot. Get out. Get out.

[James Soule]

Wait, but won't most people find that to be cute and adorable?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. The same people that were like, oh, my God, Alicia Keys is on the stage performing right now. God bless. So you'll love it. You and the other dumb dumbs will love it.

[James Soule]

But me, tricked by the little kids.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Me, myself and I, who has college education, for some reason, I sat there and I went, no, ma'. Am. And also that kid is. They do one last Merrily reprise before they get to the our time scene. So they're doing like the Rolling Along Rolling along. And Frank gets on the little platform to be on, like, the roof for the Sputnik viewing.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the last person to sing Rolling along is the little Frank Jr. So he goes. He's like, rolling along, rolling a wonk. And everyone goes. And I went, get the.

[James Soule]

Wait, that's how it ends.

[Matt Koplik]

No, that's how they.

[James Soule]

That's how that. That.

[Matt Koplik]

That transition ends. That transition ends right before the Our Time scene, everyone.

[James Soule]

But I guess it's choices like that, though, that maybe connect to this praise that she's gotten about how there's, there's such. There's so much more heart and sensitivity and warmth in the show. Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't find this production to be cold. I think a lot of the emotion comes from Lindsay and Jonathan because Jonathan's a wet man, and therefore we all feel the tears. We'll get to his speech, but, like, everyone was texting about, like, his tears. I'm like, yeah, he's a wet man.

[James Soule]

Yeah, he's.

[Matt Koplik]

He's a little, He's a little seal.

[James Soule]

Yeah, I, I like his. I enjoy his earnestness. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No, and I think it's, it's organic. I don't think it's an act.

[James Soule]

Oh, yeah. 100%. Brandon Jacobs Jenkins wins for revival.

[Matt Koplik]

And someone said, oh, did he. Someone wrote in, oh, did he shade Enemy of the People now speech because he talks about, like, how, how he would change.

[James Soule]

You don't have to worry about Henrik Ibsen. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That was a joke. Ibsen plays have won revival twice. And he's like, I want to share this with Ossie Davis.

[James Soule]

I think it's less shade on the revival of Enemy of the People and just more just a, you know, who's making a joke. Equip. A joke about American theater in general.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. We award Ibsen all the time. Like, Ossie Davis doesn't have a Tony.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That's all. Yeah. I think, I'm sure he enjoyed this revival of Enemy that people. But it's, you know, I, I, I'm.

[James Soule]

In full support of what you said.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's similar. It's a similar joke when Billy Porter, or, Sorry, when Kelly Bishop first said. Because Billy Porter stole the joke. When Kelly Bishop was like, I share my Tony Award with my cast members for Chorus Line. I'm keeping it at my house, though.

[James Soule]

Yeah, right. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Soule]

It's salty.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's fun.

[James Soule]

I don't mind that. I don't mind that at all.

[Matt Koplik]

I wrote here.

[James Soule]

I wrote here. Kenny Center Honors for Cheetah was far better.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, absolutely. Well, I'm just like, why not show us Cheetah? I don't. I'm those. I'm the kind of person where I know it's the Tonys and it's all about.

[James Soule]

I mean, there were pictures, but, you know, there's.

[Matt Koplik]

There not. Nothing they did touches what she did in the Kiss of the Spider Woman Tony performance or that brief clip of her doing America on some, like, American national broadcast in the, in the 80s. Kisses.

[James Soule]

Spider Woman was my first Broadway show. So I saw Kiss of Spider one Friday night, and then Tommy was the.

[Matt Koplik]

Saturday matinee, and you came out on Sunday.

[James Soule]

Yes, very much so.

[Matt Koplik]

He said, I want to do theater.

[James Soule]

And I. If only that were the narrative. That would be the narrative. That'll be the narrative that I craft in my memoir.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The joke I like to say is I saw Amy Spanger do Always True to youo on my Fashion and Kiss Me Kate that December.

[James Soule]

So talented, that lady.

[Matt Koplik]

And then saw Shara Renee Scott and Heather Headley and Aida three months later, and I came out that April.

[James Soule]

Okay. So gay.

[Matt Koplik]

I love it. Yeah. If only I'd seen Toni Collette and Eartha Kid in Wild Party at the age of 10, I think I actually would have come out by June.

[James Soule]

I, I. You know what I remember most about Kiss the Spiderwin was. Well, okay, the big thing was that just the sound of it was so lush and, and. And perfect and beautiful and glorious, which, which means, like, the projection of the sound, but also, like, the score itself in the music. And then knowing that at the time, she was in her 60s. Yeah. But I mean, just giving it, like. And dancing throughout the entire thing, basically. And the only. She only sings and dances in the. In that show. She doesn't have. She's like.

[Matt Koplik]

She has no tiny.

[James Soule]

One tiny book scene.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And I mean, her voice sounded like the recording.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[James Soule]

The cast recording. And it was just this example of excellence.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what I think about what's burned in my brain from that Tony performance when she's lying down on the row of men and she does the leg extension on some Matt Tenay.

[James Soule]

Yes. It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the extension. It's her face that is a woman that has theater in her skin.

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh. Similar to what we were saying about. About George. George C. Wolfe and. And Jack o'. Brien. Yeah. I like a theater beast.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, show me that extension on loop for 90 seconds.

[James Soule]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

And then. And then say, this is our honoring of Cheetah Rivera. And I'd be like, absolutely. Done. Cut, Print.

[James Soule]

But you know what? Right after that moment when she gets back up and she adjusts her hat, there is something about the way she does it, the timing of it, where she knows that, you know, she's got to do it to keep it on, because she's about to do a big old, you know, big old lifts and kicks and stuff. And then it just she just does it so, like, even those little gestures are so masterful. I'm.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. Again, I know. It's because it's Broadway. We want to do live tributes. That was one where I'm like, just show us some of her best. Because nothing any of you flops on that stage are going to do is going to touch.

[James Soule]

But the thing is that Kennedy Center Honors was live. And, you know, they have that film segment, but then they do. They get all the people to come into D.C. and do these live performances. And that was amazing because it's like. It was like 30 ensemble dancers.

[Matt Koplik]

You also have the. You have the benefit of more time on stage. You do have more dancers. Like, it can be more epic. We're talking, like, groups of three or four dancers for 10 seconds. And all those dancers are lovely, but none of them will be able to make a statement in 10 seconds. Cheetah could, but that's because there's only one Cheetah Rivera. Like, there was only one Gwen Verdon. So I'm just like, show me that leg extension. Show the world that Kiss of the Spider Woman. Leg extension. Do it right now.

[James Soule]

Yeah, that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

There was also the Water for Elephants performance, which you said you really liked.

[James Soule]

Yes, I did really like it.

[Matt Koplik]

Did you see the show yet?

[James Soule]

I haven't, so I'm gonna see it now. I feel like it sold me.

[Matt Koplik]

It sold a few people. Again, there's no general consensus on anything. The only thing I have that's.

[James Soule]

That's a recurring theme this season is general consensus on anything.

[Matt Koplik]

The only thing I got a. I got a close to general general consensus on was Ariana, the bows and the opening number. And then that one person that's coming at the very end and be like, she's great. I loved the opening. I'm like, okay, well, there goes that 100%. But everything else, it's all over the place. Some people loved the Hellskitchen performance. Some people hated it.

[James Soule]

Some people similar with Water for Elephants, too. I've heard some people that love the design. Some people who are like, eh, the design's not that great.

[Matt Koplik]

I think people wanted spectacle, but I've never found circus to be spectacle. It's about stunts more than it is about, like, sure. Epic design. Especially for there were.

[James Soule]

What is it? Parallels back to that Pippin number.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[James Soule]

You know, there's in the Water for Elephants number.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

But I. I do love that stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, outsiders means Pippin. Actually, James, before we continue any further, I have to interrupt and just Say we need to take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[James Soule]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top. Yeah.

[James Soule]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the nimble thread of the feet. And we're back. Okay, so we gotta plow through some more stuff because you and I have deadlines that we've been just blowing past. We talked about the Water for Elephants performance, the Cheetah tribute. We haven't talked about. Okay, okay. Some more winners we have. We have best score, which went to Shayna for South. So we kind of went into that a little bit. Right. It's very much a musical theatery score. Someone was asking, how can something win score in book and not best musical? Well, we mentioned it earlier, but, like, think about Drowsy Chaperone versus Jersey Boys, Guarantown versus Millie, Parade versus Fosse, Ragtime versus Lion King. Sometimes a show can have a lot of heat or energy and passion behind it that make voters really excited to vote for it. Even if maybe, like, the material isn't as standalone great as another show. And you can sort of honor two shows separately in different ways. I think with outsiders, it is a case of the whole being greater than like. Like the sum of its parts and stuffs being a situation of like, good craft that does not equal maybe like a great overall experience. Right. And I think that is what happened with. With Sus with score. But we were talking about Illinois and their Tony performance. I would like to get into it just a little bit.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

If only because someone was like, I'm straight. Explain that performance to me. Well, so first of all, there's. There is a story in Illinois, right? It's a group of, I guess, like writers. Like almost like a writer's retreat. And they all tell different stories by a campfire. Exactly. Like, they're all. They're all sharing stories of their lives. And some of it is experiences, some of it are dreams, some of it are fantasies, whatever. And our main character, played by Ricky Ubeda, talks about his journey to this campsite, starting with his relationship with his best friend, played by Ben Tyler Cook, and them traveling to New York from Chicago and having this sort of. It's almost like a will they, won't they friendship. Ricky Ubeda is very clearly gay and is realizing that with his sexuality. And Ben Tyler Cook is a little more conflicted, I would guess. One could say.

[James Soule]

I guess that's true. Now that I think about it, I might have glossed over that in my.

[Matt Koplik]

Just there.

[James Soule]

Because my tears. The tears were just.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, it's like. Because it starts with Chicago.

[James Soule]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

It starts with the song Chicago with them.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And they're traveling and Ben Tyler Cook is. Is with Gabby Diaz. That's like that.

[James Soule]

They have that pas de deux thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes. And they are. They are all. And it's important to mention all this because these characters are. These actors are all in the Tony performance. And at some point, because, like Ricky and Ben, their energy together is very like truly best friends. But there's an intimacy with that kind of a friendship that also gets complicated when one person might feel a certain way and another one may be too afraid to say how they feel.

[James Soule]

Absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

I have friends that have had very similar friendships like that, where they were gay. Very close friends with a straight man or supposedly straight, and the love that the straight man had for the gay friend complicated the waters of it because they were unsure if that love meant romance, if it was just platonic. Because again, it's an intimacy that not all men are familiar with and they.

[James Soule]

Get confused by it. Very nuanced.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, aren't I supposed to only feel this way for a woman? Isn't that what that's all about? And I'm trying to find the name of the actor who plays Ricky's guy. It's not Elijah Lyons, is it? I'm trying.

[James Soule]

And he. And the best friend. Yes, I. I would totally agree, absolutely agree. That they have a very specific kind of friendship.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Yeah. And I guess. And there's heat. Heat in the sense that electricity. Right. There's a connection between the two of.

[Matt Koplik]

Them and things that aren't being expressed because it would lead to discomfort or a possible blow up and fallout.

[James Soule]

And then the friend does have a girlfriend, I guess.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

But then she's left behind in Chicago.

[Matt Koplik]

Is that right? He has Gabby Diaz and he leaves her behind to go on this road trip with Ricky. You're my girlfriend, but this is my person. Yes. And I think that you could. Obviously you can come up with any sort of narrative you want, but I do think there was almost like a fantasy in the character of Ben Cook's brain of what could this road trip lead to? I don't know. But like, let's. Let's see where it goes. It's one of those things where you're too afraid to take the plunge on something because you're not even sure if you want it, if you believe in it. And what if it doesn't end up being what you want. Like, does that blow up all the things you already have and. Or is this. Or is all this love in Ricky Ubeda's head? Right, right. But there's enough sort of pull and push and pull and a lot of tension that Ricky is kind of being not let on. But there are things that he. That Ricky's like sort of already experimenting with. So I think the other.

[James Soule]

And it's also his past. So he. He's presumably younger, a little bit more. Not uncertain. That's the wrong word. Not quite able to discern what these feelings are. Exactly. Right. So he's figuring out a lot of things too.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[James Soule]

Presumably.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Soule]

At this point in his life.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And I think the actor who he meets up with is played. It is Craig Salstein, I think the boyfriend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically Ricky Obeyda's character. What is the character's name? It's Henry. Henry.

[James Soule]

I've seen it.

[Matt Koplik]

But I know them as the dancers, not as their characters names. But Henry, played by Ricky Obeyda. Henry meets a guy. I think his name is Boone. And that becomes a wedge with Ben Cook, which I think is another piece of evidence of like there is something here beyond just like platonic friendship.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

That territorialness you have over your friend. Finding someone who is possibly layer. Yeah. Of. There's a part of your best friend that you can't touch unless you're willing to maybe explore something about yourself you're too afraid to. And if you're too afraid someone is going to come along who can, you know, take over the elements that you. That you cannot handle.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so that is what's happening with Ricky Ubaida's Henry and this guy Boone. And Ben blows up and goes away. And Ricky Ubaida basically is left to kind of like pick himself up now that he's been abandoned by the person who mattered the most to him and start this love with. With this boyfriend. Right. So we get to the Tony performance, which is them doing the song. The predatory wasp of the Palisades is out to get us. And the performance itself is essentially Ricky being with his boyfriend, but also being haunted and troubled by the memories and the guilt and the confusion.

[James Soule]

Because the thing that I thought the number did really well, this truncated version of the number, was that it left out certain dramatic details that we do learn about watching the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

But we still understand that he's going through something very traumatic and that he's still wrestling with it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well. So, yeah, it all boils down to the song itself, which I had never heard this album before until I saw the show. And this song now brings me to tears every time I listen to it. It doesn't matter where I matter what I'm doing.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The story of the song, as Sufjan Stevens wrote it, was about his friendship and love with this boy in his. In his life back home. And Sufjan was raised Christian. And the. And so it starts with a verse about him being in his bedroom alone, writing, and he sees a wasp on the. On the window or the door. And it takes him back to his memories with his best friend when they were teenagers and growing up together in the Midwest. And they were both. There's the line, we were in love. We were in love. And the wasp is sort of this constant reminder of. Not danger, but, like, oppression. There's. I did, like, a lot of research.

[James Soule]

There's a specific image.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Yeah. It is not. Certainly not one of comfort or lack of tension.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a sting that a wasp provides and can be poisonous and can affect. And I did all this reading about it because I was like, I'm getting. I'm getting a certain emotional response to this. But now I want to, like, read up on the details of the lyrics. And apparently something that Sufian really writes about a lot is his own struggles with his religion and his sexuality, because he does believe in God, he loves God. But also he understands the, like, problems that the church has with homosexuality, especially, because it was apparently a really big problem with him and his friend growing up. What do you do with this deep love you have with each other that is so pure and so connected, but then everything around you is telling you not to do it, that it's wrong, but when you're together, it feels so right. Is it. Are you blinded by something in this connection with your friend? Or is the. Are the people you trust around you wrong? And it ultimately seems like from the song that Sufian decided that he was right to love who he loved, and he could find a balance between that and God, but his friend couldn't do that.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because there's the line, my friend is gone. He ran away. I can tell you I love him each day Though we have sparred, wrestled and raged I can tell you I love him each day. And when I tell you, James, that I sob every time I hear it. Because it's also like the. Musically, the song captures the. It captures sort of, you know, being present while also daydreaming, and then also has moments that is just like a Theatrical, vivacious youth to it. Like when they get to the we were in love and the oh, great sights upon this date. Alleluia. It's like. It's music that you just imagine someone like, running through a field and in a movie, you know, totally teenager.

[James Soule]

It also. That informs. Why it's such great dance music too, gorgeous dance music. Why movement can both enhance it and how music can enhance the movement and how they can sort of be in this loop together.

[Matt Koplik]

So you get the ultimate highs of being so wonderfully unbound and in love with someone. It is pure joy of a euphoric feeling that we're all supposed to have in our lives. And then it gets quieter and softer and we get to the. I can't explain the state that I'm in, the state of my heart. He was my best friend. And going into all that and lines like, though we have sparred, wrestled, enraged, I can tell you I love him. Each day is not composed in an angry manner. It's still in a light, matter of fact way.

[James Soule]

Well, it is that all things can be true at once.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And with.

[James Soule]

Yeah, it's definitely not angry.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[James Soule]

And in fact, you know, that's. That's why it's so moving ultimately with the whole piece of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

With the movement.

[Matt Koplik]

And so I'm gonna express a little personal thing. I'm gonna be as vague as I can because again, I'm trying not to, like, speak too much, but I want to talk. I want to find a parallel between something I've been through that I relate very hard to in the song that I think a lot of gay men have been through at some point, especially because in this world where we are still kind of grappling with who is on board with homosexuality and like, where in the world is it okay to be gay? And like, sometimes you think to yourself, like, it would just be easier to be straight. Like, all the time you think it'd be, I'm happy and proud of who I am, but like, you often I'm like, I'm just so tired. And I don't want to have to keep fighting. I just want to live and enjoy the world. I'm sure every.

[James Soule]

That's. I feel that probably universal in the queer community.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And there are just.

[James Soule]

Just the questioning at some point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And there are people who prioritize that comfort above all else.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And there are people who willingly ignore elements of their sexuality in order to be able to have that kind of comfort, whether you are gay or bisexual or straight. With gay tendencies or just confused or whatever. And I have had an experience with someone where, like, they definitely had a queerness about them. Granted, they are more open about it now, but at the time, they were still kind of figuring it out. And I didn't know where they were at. I just knew that we got along and our relationship was such that it was like a friendship that also had a passion to it. And we fell into what should be a very healthy relationship of, like, I like you and I love you, I want to have sex with you, and I want to talk about, you know, dumb stuff once we're finished, like, what it should be. But there are a lot of complicated demons to this person.

[James Soule]

Right. When we're talking about, like, a baggage thing. Right. Stuff from the past.

[Matt Koplik]

Past and their present and things that they wouldn't tell me about. So I had no idea of knowing. And eventually, the more I learned, the more I got concerned and got hurt along the way. But ultimately, when I still tried to kind of be there for them, when it became clear that, okay, I don't think I can be your person, not because I don't want to, but it's very clear that, like, you're not ready for that. And there are things you want in your life that is your choice, but I can't in order to. For you to have that. You can't have me as your person, but I can still care about you, and we can still be in each other's lives and you're going through something. I would like to be there for you. And I was able to for a minute. And then when the ultimate push came to shove and they had to make a decision, the decision was to cut me off and cut me out without any knowledge on my part that that's what was happening. And so I was left confused and heartbroken and wondering, did all that I invested in this person matter at all? Was I was I just sort of convenient means to an end at the time again, left with all of these questions.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And all of this struggle. And I would cry and I would complain to my friends, and my friends would say, you know, the necessary mean stuff about this person to make me feel better. But ultimately, I can tell you I love him each day.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And that is something that anyone in the world can definitely understand if they've been through it. But it's something that queer men have more often felt than anyone else because we all have had someone in our lives that we've cared so much about that ultimately went for what they Thought was the easier thing. And left some kind of brokenness behind them.

[James Soule]

Right. And brokenness in us too. Because of some sort of lack of. Not some sort. A lack of communication or. Or just no communication at all. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Or disconnect in what good communication is. I can't begin with.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't properly express what lack of closure does to a person.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Lack of. Lack of explanation. Lack of understanding when you're. When you have only questions in you, that eats away at you.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And especially when it's someone who. Because what you remember is the feeling of caring and the euphoria of love and the passion and. And that connection. And the person goes away and there's just this void where they used to be off a cliff.

[James Soule]

Literally. Right. It's just like. There's suddenly. There's nothing there. Yeah. And.

[Matt Koplik]

And the fact is that what happens. What's going on with them has nothing to do with you. It's their own stuff. You were unfortunately, carnage. That happened because of it. And so with Ricky Ubaidah's character, it's just very clear in that performance and in that song. It's a beautiful expression of what that song is talking about. And you. And he has this boyfriend with him. Right.

[James Soule]

Who.

[Matt Koplik]

The number ends with them kind of like coming together and take. And getting Ricky off of the cliff of. Of this almost mental break. Because he's still troubled by the lack of closure with Ben.

[James Soule]

Yeah. And the permanence in that lack of closure. And he'll never get it again. Or there's no way he'll get it.

[Matt Koplik]

He loves him each day.

[James Soule]

Yeah. And so it's just like.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And the moment where they get. Where the boyfriend gets him and begins to, like, pat his chat.

[Matt Koplik]

Breathe with him.

[James Soule]

They breathe together. And it's just. Everything about. It's just beautiful. It was. It was really beautiful. And. And I. You know, and the fact that there's no dialogue. It's. It's. It's sung music with lyrics and movement and still I can understand it, grasp it. And not just. Not only that, but be so profoundly moved by it. It's miraculous to me. It really is.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the thing is musical theater at its best.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Is this brilliant combination of chemistry and intelligence. Right. It's. Your brain shuts off and your heart takes over and you just feel something you can't feel in any other medium.

[James Soule]

100%.

[Matt Koplik]

But when it's good, when your brain turns back on, you can go back and you can start analyzing and you find all these Deeper levels that you didn't find at first because you were just feeling the emotional impact.

[James Soule]

Yeah. It took me a good maybe 10.

[Matt Koplik]

15 minutes with Illinois.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Of how do I listen? How do I watch this?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

You know, and so, because I bring that up because you mentioned this, like, softness, like, literally softening my brain. And I guess that means really just doing my best to take in and absorb the entirety of. Of the experience.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[James Soule]

Not. Not think, not analyzing. Like, well, what is that lyric? How does that lyric tie right now to this specific movement that I just saw? Right. That level of analysis is. Wasn't useful for me as I. As I experienced it all. And so once I was able to really let go into the vocabulary of what the show is, I mean, that's when. That's when I just. The tears just start. Stop. Started and did not stop for an hour and a half.

[Matt Koplik]

On that note, also, my friend Braden is in town, and he asked me what he should see tonight. And I was like, oh, no, what's available? He goes, well, Illinois is out. Is. Has a show tonight. I was like, oh, see that? And I had to sort of tell him sort of what it. What the vibe was of it. And he goes, okay, well, if I don't like it, we can't hang out when I'm tomorrow. And he just texted me getting out of the show, and he goes, okay, we can hang out. So he and I are gonna talk about predatory wasps. But, like, there are moments in shows that even if, you know, I don't always love the show, there's like, a moment that I can hold on to. And I really do enjoy Illinois. It does take about 20 minutes to, like, for me to get invested. The first 20 minutes ago, good music, wonderful dancing. But it's really when the Henry plot line happens that I go, oh, fuck, this is gonna curb stomp my heart.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And that number.

[James Soule]

And there's such an immediacy in the recognition of it too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think what makes it, in my opinion, the best number performance of this ceremony is it does what I think the best Tony performances do, which is they don't go. How do we showcase as much of this show as we can? How do we sell this to middle America? They go, let us find a specific moment.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And really just expose as much of it as we can.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's this. It's the Sydney Lucas and Fun home just doing Ring of Keys.

[James Soule]

Yes. Ring of Keys, totally. That's exactly what it is. And luckily, for the most part, the medium. So the Camera work. And all of that was served. The piece was served by all of that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

For stuff that I mentioned earlier, I think close ups came at the right time.

[Matt Koplik]

Or rather, it was the one time.

[James Soule]

Not extreme close ups, but just so that you could make out a little bit more than you might be able to see if you're sitting way back in the orchestra or in the balcony of the theater.

[Matt Koplik]

It was the only performance where the close ups actually brought you in instead of making you feel like you were too close.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it was also the tr. It was the truth of also acceptance speeches. There were speeches where the camera was far too close. I'm like, let it. This is. This part is too intimate for us.

[James Soule]

Oh, Jonathan Grof had a moment like that. I was like, oh, get back.

[Matt Koplik]

It was far too. Exactly. Far too close. But, yeah, no, Illinois is for me, not.

[James Soule]

Not because of anything. Because of anything wrong with Jonathan Groff. It's just like no human needs to be. No need to see any face that big.

[Matt Koplik]

Not at all. I also appreciate Will Brill acknowledging his therapist.

[James Soule]

Speaking of. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Stereophonic performed and a lot of people were confused as to why it was as short as it was. The Tony Awards were not going to include Stereophonic performing. And then they got a lot of pressure online and in the community to do it. And they didn't have a lot last minute edition. And it was like an 80 second cut of masquerade. And when I tell you, like, if you want to know why we all are freaking out about that number, just go on YouTube and look up the Jimmy Fallon performance of it where they do the whole thing. And it's great.

[James Soule]

Yeah. The album, I've been making my way through it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so good.

[James Soule]

It's great. It's really great. Really, really great. I wrote Outsiders cast toweling each other off during the commercial break.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. Making every sexually confused boy in America go, I think I know what I am now. So, okay, that. So that performance, the Outsiders, was one for me where it started. And I wasn't pleased because, yeah, the opening number of the Outsiders is my least favorite song in that show. Okay. So I was already annoyed that they were doing that, but they're like. It was a case where, like, oh, we want to show off the whole cast and really all this other stuff.

[James Soule]

Once Angelina Jolie introducing it and they kind of like scooching off to the backstage or whatever. That was hilarious.

[Matt Koplik]

But at least she didn't join the rumble. But. So God forbid we showcase the people who are doing this Eight times a week instead of the multi millionaires who are producing it. But so.

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, she should have had an Alicia Keys moment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she should have come on and she said, they call me Pony Boy. And this is Tulsa 1963.

[James Soule]

I will say this. I watched and I was like, oh, boy. Another medley of songs. Okay, fine. And they got through that Josh Boone number.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And got to that fight sequence, the Rumble.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And I was like, okay, I'm sold.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the Rumble is the best thing in the show. And it's also like 10 times longer on stage. I think it's.

[James Soule]

Yeah, I figured.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's like five, six minutes long.

[James Soule]

But I was like, I'm glad they. They moved towards this.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. I would have loved it if they had done maybe like 45 seconds of Josh Boone into the Rumble and just cut.

[James Soule]

Just not done the opening number.

[Matt Koplik]

And part of them, I'm sure, they're like, well, we want a future Brody Grant because he's nominated. Like, I don't fucking care. You don't need to show off all of your nominees. Beth Leavel didn't sing a goddamn word in the drowsy chaperone.

[James Soule]

Oh, that's true. Yeah, that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

And she won. Yeah.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It was sudden and. And the reason they did is it was the best number to showcase everyone and the comedy of the show because, like.

[James Soule]

Yeah. And the tone and even the design elements of the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

All the components of the show because.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, Beth's number doesn't show off. The choreography doesn't show off. You know, the. The creativity of the staging. And also, like, her number as we stumble along is really only funny in context, especially with the staging with you.

[James Soule]

To get the character to be able to then laugh at that song.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Like, having it be the man in chair into Sutton shows you the genius of the book and how fun the score can be and how good everyone else is.

[James Soule]

And that is a good example of the kind of number that you were talking about, like the. The 2080. Right. Because the first bit was the man in chair, like, having the moment, the kind of moments that he has in the show that then leads into the number.

[Matt Koplik]

Or.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Think about Piazza doing Statues and Stories. One of the best openings of all time. Doing a little bit of the overture with Victoria Clarke talking and then leading into Kelly doing her ahs. And then, you know, a version of Statues and Stories. It's maybe like 90 seconds shorter than it is on stage. And it ends with Kelly and Matthew Morrison, but Matthew doesn't sing a goddamn note in it. And he was a nominee that year.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

They were like, this is.

[James Soule]

But it captures the moment, though, that, that magical moment that it features him for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's. They're not like going, oh, let's do like some pasta Jata. Into statues and stories like. No, that'd be a terrible transition. Let's just show our show.

[James Soule]

I am remembering the way. Right. Doesn't the hat fly on?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Kelly goes off for a second, gets the hat. It comes off. Because they also. It's a different button on that song than in the show because in the actual show, the hat flies off after the song.

[James Soule]

Yes, that's right. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's a. It's a brilliantly done performance. And I think outsiders should have simplified and done an intro into the rumble, done some 30 second clip of a different number to get us into the Rumble and then give us three and a half minutes of that Rumble because that is what makes your show compelling.

[James Soule]

That's fair.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Again, because if the Tony Awards are a glorified commercial for. For these shows to try to entice more people to come see, then. Yeah. It's like, what. What is the thing that's going to capture the essence. What is the thing that's going to capture the essence of the whole.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

In the limited amount of time that.

[Matt Koplik]

We have and beyond that. We know this now. They didn't know this in the 70s and 80s, but we know this now. What you perform is going to be a preservation of your show forever.

[James Soule]

Yes. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Totally. I didn't even think about that.

[Matt Koplik]

The Dream girl's performance is our insight into what that show was like.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

With. Because bootlegs can show you stuff, but it's not the same. This is. This is living on forever.

[James Soule]

Yes. With. With the. With the advantage of multi cam, you know, the differing degree of degrees of shots that. That, that can be captured and all spliced together with the. With clear, with clarity. Right. With. With good sound. Yeah. So this is for posterity. 100. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's like, well, then how is the thing gonna be remembered too?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. How are we gonna look? I mean, think about the Tony.

[James Soule]

So, like into the woods, that revival. Into the Woods. I guess it'll just. It's just a Wikipedia of a bunch of fairy tales thrown together. Like.

[Matt Koplik]

One of the most debated. Tony wins and part of it is because of the performance on The Tony ceremony itself is Catherine Zeta Jones for a Little Night Music, which granted a performance that I saw on Broadway and heavily disliked.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But a lot of her defenders on that are like, you didn't see her performance. You just saw the Tony performance. And yes, she was bad on that, but it was so different in the theater. But also, like, that is a case.

[James Soule]

Of wasn't that different in the theater.

[Matt Koplik]

She didn't move her head around quite so much when she was doing Send in the Clowns. She was a little softer. But also there was the rest of the show where I thought she was quite terrible. But my point is that that is how we remember the. Her performance and that production.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Is. Is what she did there. How we remember Full Monty and Ragtime and Lion King is like what they Sideshow, which was just Emily and Alice doing the damn thing.

[James Soule]

And actually Ragtime and Lion King too. I mean, they could have done all kinds of met, but I think landing on one specific chunk of the show and truncated. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

For time streamlining, for sure.

[James Soule]

Yeah. But still, like, capturing. Like, for Ragtime, for instance, capturing the scope of the piece. Lion King capturing the. The sort of innovative. You know, everything. Right. Design and. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because also we look back at these performances, and sometimes people go, how could this lose? Like, look at this amazing performance. Because sometimes it is just like. Like the best before. Yeah. I mean, you look at the 1969 Tony Awards, and if you don't know 1776, you watch that Tony performance and go, how did this beat? Promises, promises, When Turkey Lurkey Time is the. One of the greatest stage numbers of all time.

[James Soule]

Sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorbo with their life is like, how did this happen? But 1776 is a brilliant musical, but it's. It's. No one's really thinking about that. And I'm like, don't you want to preserve the four minutes of your show so that way it can be iconic in the future?

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because the two go hand in hand. You sell. Like, if the number is gonna sell your show, that means it's gonna be iconic later on. So, like, think about it all the way.

[James Soule]

That's right. I mean, think about all those musical Mondays at gay bars across this country.

[Matt Koplik]

That half my friends host.

[James Soule]

This is the clip that you want to be that you want shown.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. This is what you chose, I feel. And what's interesting is, like, suffs performance actually kind of does what we're talking about on paper. They focus on one number and they simplify and they have a focus about it. The problem is, is I think they picked the wrong number.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't like this song. Keep marching. It's the finale, the absolute finale. And I was ever seeing it, you.

[James Soule]

Know, and the message of it is so super clear and crisp. I do wonder maybe. Yeah. If another ensemble piece could have been chosen.

[Matt Koplik]

I have no problem with the political messaging of Suffs. I have a problem with a lot of the execution of stuff. And there are actual numbers in that show that are genuinely exciting.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Shayna is a good songwriter. I think she needed a book writer, but she's a good songwriter. And Keep Marching. It's like. It's just. It actually encapsulates what makes me frustrated with stuff. It is. In a way, it is actually a good representation of the show because for all the things about stuff that's intelligent and clever and well crafted, it is also incredibly pandering. It is a progressive's version of a MAGA rally because it's an echo chamber of all of us who think the exact same thing. Hearing what we believe shouted on stage on a high E and going, yas Queen work. We're changing the world. And I'm like, you're not. Because everyone here has the same opinion. We haven't changed a single mind.

[James Soule]

I haven't seen it since I saw Preview when it was at the public. I haven't seen it since then. And my understanding is that everything has changed. Like design team.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

There's been massive changes.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone agrees. I did not get to see it at the public. They canceled my performance due to Covid. But everyone has said that it's a massive improvement from off Broadway. And even Jesse Green in his review, which I thought he wrote a really great review for it, where he's like, I can't tell you that this show is great. I can't give it a critics pick. He's like, but I can absolutely recognize the work they've done and how much better it is. He's like, and I'm gonna talk about that.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, so I'm not telling you. Like, I recommend it just yet. It's like, but they did what you're supposed to do.

[James Soule]

I also, I love all the Hillary Clinton Barbara Cook memes. Oh, my God, I love it so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, wait, another.

[James Soule]

It makes me so happy.

[Matt Koplik]

Another thing that made me roll my fucking eyes. Someone on Facebook yesterday said happy Tonys. I really, really hope that Suffs wins best musical because we should give an award to Hillary Clinton because she worked so hard to be our president. And it didn't happen, and it should be our way to reward her. And I really, really, really wanted to write. You know, she didn't write this show. Right. She put in some money. That's all she did. Do you want. You want this to win Best Musical, not because you think the show is good, but because you want to give the Tony to Hillary Clinton? I think we should give the Tony to Seuss, to Outsiders, because Angelina Jolie survived that plane ride with Brad Pitt.

[James Soule]

There's a very strange logic there, especially because we're not talking talk. We're talking about a Broadway musical. Look, we're talking. You and I are literally talking about Broadway musicals now. We love them. I love them. 100. But if we are talking within the larger context of American culture, the country itself, Broadway musicals are a relatively small percentage. Right. The relatively small percentage of the population is interested in. In this particular medium. And I just think it's interesting, like, we want to give her this thing, but it's such a specialized niche kind of interest. It just seems like a strange logic.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, people now also want. So stupidity is not just in the south, and it's not just in the gop. It's everywhere. And you hear it with the critical discourse of any show. This show is great because it's important. Is it important? Explain to me how well the representation. Okay, but then how is it crafted? Where do the songs come? In my biggest defense towards my opinion about how to dance in Ohio, because people come at me and they go, well, it broke barriers with representation and the story that it told. I'm like, absolutely. I'm like. And imagine how much bigger an impact it could have had if it were good. If that show were good, it could run longer, and we would be talking about it way more. But when you. When the first thing you say is, oh, it's so important.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That is code for, you didn't do good. Yeah, but you tackled something we should tackle.

[James Soule]

Yeah, it's. It's so important. That is an interesting. It's like when we say, first go to. If we're. If we're trying to push something.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like when a woman of a certain age shows off her body and you go, oh, how brave. I'm like, can you kindly take that word and stuff it back in your mouth? Just do it. Just do it. I'm brave for showing my body because I should be charging a fee for it, but I let you look at it for free. And that is brave of me because I am going against capitalism. You're welcome. I'm fighting the good fight.

[James Soule]

I will say it was nice to see her on the telecast.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, sure.

[James Soule]

I was happy that when she popped up and introduce the number, I was.

[Matt Koplik]

Happy everyone was there except for, you know, Cynthia Erivo. Okay, I'm kidding. I'm always happy to see her.

[James Soule]

I. Wait, what's next? Oh, I wrote down Holland Taylor's reaction to Sarah Paulson's speech. There was a moment after she was done talking and the camera went over to. Because she was sitting right next to Angelina Jolie. And the expression that Holland Taylor had on her face was just one of just delight and. And just like love for. For this person in her life. Yeah, it was great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, they. They are in love. And that's very nice to see.

[James Soule]

And her speech was good. I liked her speech a lot.

[Matt Koplik]

She had a very good speech. Also in the pre telecast, Julianne Hough had mentioned that Sarah Paulson was staying at her home.

[James Soule]

Yes, they're staying in her apartment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was cute. And then it stopped being cute, and then it got cute again.

[James Soule]

All within the span of like 30 seconds.

[Matt Koplik]

Like 45. Yeah, but. Because at one point she kept saying, like, my home, my home, my home. And we all were like, we get it, Julianne. You're a homeowner. Fuck off. But she was like, give all that TV dance money. Well. Cause she had a great moment that I don't think she realized was funny when she was like, it's like, Sarah's staying at my home. And like, you're like, I'm just so happy that you're there. And I think she meant it earnestly. But the way she said it was just so funny that everybody laughed. Laughed. And she goes like, no, no, she's a great. She's a great house guest. It's like, you know, you text me sometimes and go like, can I use this spoon? I'm like, of course you can use the spoon, baby. Like, yeah, that.

[James Soule]

That is equates to Sean Hayes being like, oh, my friend Sarah Paulson and giving each other this beautiful hug on stage.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[James Soule]

I love that community of celebrities.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, wait, there was that dude in the pre telecast. I forgot his name, but a lot of people wrote in about him. He was like, co hosting with Juliana.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes. He's on a sitcom on cbs. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I think I remember him in Pitch Perfect. That's like my main takeaway with him.

[James Soule]

Very funny.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, he normally. Yes. Everyone was angry about him on the telecast.

[James Soule]

Oh, really?

[Matt Koplik]

Or the people who Wrote in. They were like. They were like, get him off the stage. And I think I liked him. I liked him in a sense, but I didn't. I didn't.

[James Soule]

I liked when he asked Anthony Ramos where his shirt was.

[Matt Koplik]

I liked when he said to. So he did one bit with Corey Stoll, and then he continued it with other people, but it was less funny. The one with Corey Stall was like, corey. Or. No, maybe he wasn't.

[James Soule]

It was Liev Schreiber.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, it was Liev Schreiber, yeah. Where he's like, liev, do you remember, like, we met at this one time? He's like. And then I walked into a plate of glass. Yeah.

[James Soule]

And Liev's face, it looked. It was not a. It was not a planned bit at all. Liev was genuinely confused.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so I think for a second, though, so. Because if it's. I feel like it might be true. Because at first, when Liam is listening to him, like, I thought the whole joke was like, remember we met 10 years ago and I was a nobody. Of course he wouldn't remember that. But then he's like. And then the moment I said bye to you, I walked into a plate of glass. And then I feel like I saw.

[James Soule]

Leo, Like, a little flash of Leah.

[Matt Koplik]

Being like, I remember. Yeah. I remember someone saying hi to me then walking into a plate of glass.

[James Soule]

Yeah, that's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I remember the glass. Okay. Oh, the In Memoriam, Nicole Scherzinger.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

She was like, eat it, Audrael. Yeah. She's like, I will indeed be competing for best actress in a musical this next season.

[James Soule]

I am looking forward to it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Looking forward to Sunset Boulevard.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I don't like that musical, so I'm excited to see them with it a lot.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all the clips that I've seen from the West End production just look fascinating. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.

[Matt Koplik]

We talked about the Kit Kab Club Cabaret performance a little bit, but just. Yeah, I.

[James Soule]

This might sound too negative, but I was a little exhausted by the end of it. I was like, oh, this is just a taste of what it is probably like to watch the show. And it's not for lack of craftsmanship or skill or beauty of design or talent or anything like that. It was just something about the collective of all of it together. By the end, I was like, oh, it's a.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a. I call this Try Hard Cabaret. And I. And.

[James Soule]

But then there was good camera work. I really loved how they took, like, they had that aerial view at one point. There was the moment where it was just. Just Eddie Redmayne. And then the entire ensemble popped into the screen. Like, I love stuff like that.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that the staging they did worked well with the medium of tv. My issue is if you do end up seeing this production. So I went in very cautious because everything I had seen from London made me roll my eyes harder than my penis when I saw the Rumble and the Outsiders, harder than every queer boy. When those greasers were telling each other off after the Rumble last night, rolling my eyes so hard, and people who I love were like, no, I swear, it's so fantastic. And I'm like, sure, Jan. But the problem is that that Mendy's Marshall production from the 90s, first of all, so iconic, but unfortunately launched a trend of, well, now cabaret's gotta be gritty. Cabaret's gotta be in your face. I had someone today message me.

[James Soule]

It has to be immersive.

[Matt Koplik]

Too immersive. I had someone message me today who didn't like the performance on the Tonys because she. She thought it was too gaudy and too happy. And she goes, cabaret is not a party show. I was like, well, the first half is. And she goes, okay. Well, I mean, I actually never seen the show. It's like. I was like. So all you know is that it's about the Nazis, right? Yeah, I was like. And. And you. And you've seen, like, clips of past productions where it's all about, like, shocking you.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Or just numb. Or just numbers.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Soule]

Like, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

With.

[James Soule]

Without context.

[Matt Koplik]

Cabaret, Fiddler on the Roof and Sounding Music had the same structure when it to. Comes. Comes to, you know, the Jew haters is that those are the three Jew hater musicals. And it's because it's. The first half is everything is great and, like, get sucked into how much you love our characters and you love this environment. And then, like. But there's sort of, like, a slight outside danger. Don't worry about it too much. But then by the end, especially, like.

[James Soule]

In the Sound of Music, you don't really get a sense of it in the beginning.

[Matt Koplik]

No, not for Sound of Music. It's truly not until halfway through act two, you go, oh, right, Nazis. But Fiddler and Cabaret both end act one with like, like, no, no, the danger is here.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's here and it's happening.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Act 2 is like, okay, now we gotta adjust our viewpoints of everything. Yes, but so.

[James Soule]

Of everything we've just experienced.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. But the reputation of Cabaret being a serious musical, a lot of people who don't watch it just think of it as like, okay, this has got to be a heavy thing. Or they watched the Tony performance. Or they watched. They watched the Olivier performance of the what's Her Face.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Where she just screamed her. Her lungs out through the song. Yep. And sweated her way across the stage. And I just sat there being like, I mean, it's impressive that you can do that more than once, but I don't want to see you do it once. So what are we doing here? And people watching this performance thinking that that's what Cabaret is. They were like, oh, way too colorful, way too popular. Like, no, no, what they're doing is like the first 45 minutes of the show. That's the vibe. But also it. Like, the whole thing is just very. We're throwing Cabaret in your face again and doing something new. And I got excited for a second because the casting for Broadway seemed really cool. And Bebe and Steven do bring it to every ball, but ultimately I walked out. I'm like, yeah, no, that's exactly what I thought it was gonna be. They had a lot of ideas. Half of them had nothing to do with Cabaret.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And we move on.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, the. The thing about the material itself, right. The songs, the books, it's so good. It's such a well crafted musical.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a masterpiece. Yeah.

[James Soule]

It's like, you know, in a sense, like, I don't know, like other musicals of the golden. Right. Like Guys and Dolls, like. Like you can only fuck it up. And so it's like this thing of perhaps not trusting enough in what the show is on the page. And so we feel like we have to layer so much on top of it to grab attention to. To make an audience. To force an audience to feel something and force them to experience something and.

[Matt Koplik]

And to remember that we're the ones that did it. Like, it's. There are revivals where directors are like, I must put my stamp on it. You must know that this was my production.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And what I appreciate about. What appreciate about Maria's direction with Merrilee is that it. You never feel as a director, she's going pay attention to what I'm doing.

[James Soule]

Like, concept over anything else.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There are. There's not, like, moments where it's very clearly a director choice and you're like, I don't know about her. I don't think that's. That that was the moment. But it is a lighter direction than other Musicals. But I also think that's why Donya did win, because Danya's direction for the Outsiders, it's not so much look at me so much as it's like, look at all the ways I'm making this work for you.

[James Soule]

Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I understand that it is a.

[Matt Koplik]

Very stagey presentation and a lot of direction. In a musical, winners are for how showy the staging is. I think the last time we got direction of musical going to a director that, like, wasn't super showy was David Cromer for Bandsvizzler. And that's like. Because even Sam Gold for Fun Home, like, the. The tone and the control over the material was beautiful and the cast was phenomenal. But there was also the story of that. He took it from proscenium to in the Round and look how he made in the Round work.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And where things popped up and things came in and floated in and out and made. He made it flow like a memory. Oh, yeah. The stage, all of it. And it makes the whole thing. He literally staged a memory in front of our eyes.

[James Soule]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Koplik]

And that was so beautiful and in addition to being impressive and right for the show, but like, if it was just them at like music Stands still giving amazing performances, doing an amazing show, he probably wouldn't have won because it was a little less showy.

[James Soule]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Danya did a little more of a showy job than Maria did. But I also think there were a couple moments in Merrily where Maria didn't have total control over what was happening offline.

[James Soule]

I can't wait to hear.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, listen, Maria Freeman does the best. Maria Freeman does the best saga of Jenny you've ever heard. Speaking of lady in the Dark, the Royal national production of lady in the Dark. It's online on YouTube. Listen to it. She's fucking incredible.

[James Soule]

But I mean, in her. At the height of her musical theater career, she was like one of the.

[Matt Koplik]

Go to musical theater divas in the West End. She was the first mother in Ragtime over there. Yeah, yeah. She was fosca in passion, like, girlfriend just. Just turned it out. She was like the Julia McKenzie of her time.

[James Soule]

Yes, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, right, Yeah. I first discovered her in the hey, Mr. Producer concert, which is one of the best things of all time.

[James Soule]

Yes. I love that concert. Wait, what did she sing?

[Matt Koplik]

She sings. She sang something for Martin Gare, which was dumb, but she also. Did she.

[James Soule]

In the Broadway baby number.

[Matt Koplik]

They all were. Yes.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But she also did. You could drive a person crazy with Lea Salonga and Millicent Martin and Ruthie Henschel.

[James Soule]

The Angel.

[Matt Koplik]

That number is so good. It's also my.

[James Soule]

It's a really good version of that song. It is only because it. Each of those women do it to their strengths.

[Matt Koplik]

It might be the most, like, sexy and sophisticated I've ever seen. Lea Salonga. She looks like she's about to host a cocktail party on the Upper east side. Her hair is slicked back in a typo, and she sounds like a jazz singer. Dream theme, the one she just begins with, you could drive a person crazy.

[James Soule]

Other thing I love about that is Bernadette's being alive.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, fantastic.

[James Soule]

Yeah, it's beautifully sung. But there's also something about the orchestration for that particular version of the song that I just love.

[Matt Koplik]

I was recently.

[James Soule]

She tosses in a key change towards the end.

[Matt Koplik]

I was recently on a podcast talking about her in that concert, but I was talking about Unexpected Song, which is one of my favorite renditions of a song ever, because I think Unexpected Song is stupid. It's. It's a. It's like. It's like a Frank Wildhorn song. It's one statement over and over, but each verse just goes up a key. And it's just. It's like, how can I say the same thing nine different times? But she acted in a way and performs in a way that it changes. And she's so good. She's in a dress that's so tight, you can see her uterus. It's brilliant. Brilliant.

[James Soule]

I love her new ice cream ads, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, everyone does.

[James Soule]

What did I. I'm just. Sorry. I'm looking at my notes just to make sure that I.

[Matt Koplik]

Someone wanted to write in about Idina Menzel telling Cynthia Erivo that movie you did. Like, I can't wait to see that movie you did.

[James Soule]

I think that's cute.

[Matt Koplik]

It was very funny.

[James Soule]

And then they gave each other. Like, she gave her. Cynthia Erivo gave her a really cute little nudge. And. Yeah, I thought it was adorable.

[Matt Koplik]

I really wanted Cynthia Riva to be like, and Idina, I can't wait to see you in the Color Purple.

[James Soule]

Oh, this is what I wrote that, you know, because I really liked a lot of the speeches and. Yeah. And they were all. A lot of them were written down on a piece of paper or on their phones. But I thought, you know, of course they're going to be good because most of them have been practicing these speeches since they were, you know, teenagers in the bathroom. And, yeah, they sort of. Not that it was calculated at all. But. But they've been rehearsing it for a long time.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah, they weren't wasting our time with their speeches. They were like.

[James Soule]

And it was just so many different versions of a good acceptance speech.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There's a difference between an actor or a writer giving an acceptance speech. And, you know, maybe a producer here or there. Someone mentioned Sonia Friedman adjusting her dress during the telecast. It was like a really.

[James Soule]

Oh, I missed that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Something she was doing something where it was like, after. It was.

[James Soule]

Well, you forget, I'm sure that, you know, you're the cameras on, you know, by scores and scores of people on television.

[Matt Koplik]

She also. Her acceptance speech for Merrily, she was, like, clearly pissed that Maria didn't win and gave Maria, like, the final moment. And Maria ended it so beautifully.

[James Soule]

Oh, it was so gracious.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

So wonderful. And bringing it back to Sondheim.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I'm like, sonia, you've made so much money off of this revival. Like, Maria's gonna have carte blanche for the next five years to direct whatever she wants. She's so. Someone. Oh, someone else wrote in. They were like, how can Maria lose? Is she not well liked or something? I'm like, no, she's very well liked. First of all, she's only been here once to do Woman in White. But no, she's very well liked. It's just, you know, I think not. I think not. Everyone was enthralled with Merrily. And I also think a lot of people watched Outsiders and were just more impressed with what Danya did on a technical level.

[James Soule]

Right, exactly. For stuff that you've already mentioned.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And if. If it's for. No, no, I know. I didn't mean that in that way.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. It still was funny.

[James Soule]

I meant that. Right. With Merrily, it's the score that we all already know which. And love that overture. Right. And these performances. And yes, obviously, a director is important, but the thing that audiences will walk out of that theater remembering most is gonna be more related to those elements than the direction of the piece.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, so then let's talk about best musical for a quick second as we head out. Because, like, Merrily was always gonna win. We knew it was gonna win. The best thing about Gutenberg was that Andrew Reynolds and Josh Gad came on to talk about revivals and what is a revival?

[James Soule]

And they had a cut. Cute bit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Talking about talking about the classics and the classic rule and all that stuff. Lot of opinions about Best musical. A few people were like, I really wanted it to be Illinois. Even though I knew it wasn't gonna happen, I'm like, I'm glad you knew that. It ultimately was down to SUVs, Hell's Kitchen and Outsiders. Maybe it's because of my overt stance about Hell's Kitchen. And I did write on Instagram, first on Close Friends, and then I said, no, I stand by this statement. And so I put it on Maine, which was, every Tony that Hell's Kitchen.

[James Soule]

I saw that on your story.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, every Tony that Hell's Kitchen loses is another brick on the pathway to heaven.

[James Soule]

It.

[Matt Koplik]

There may or may not be a Broadway music director who saw that and text me. He was like, that's fucking genius. But the. So I'm saying because of that, maybe like the Hell's Kitchen fans didn't feel comfortable writing into me about, like, that they wanted Hell's Kitchen to win. But I also haven't. I don't know. The understanding I got from the Tony voters I spoke to was that they were kind of looking for every reason to not vote for Hell's Kitchen. I think part of it was after the reviews and the box office and the whole, like, event of Alicia Keys just being around Broadway. They were all very underwhelmed by it and felt almost hoodwinked. Interesting, because again, that script is terrible. And then a lot of people I know who saw it walked out and they were like, I didn't hate it, but like, like, that wasn't amazing, right?

[James Soule]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And I also know, like, Alicia's campaigning rubbed some people the wrong way. So then it goes down to subs and the Outsiders and then a lot of people I know voting. First of all, there is a whole. There's a whole camp of voters, by the way, who I just need to say fucking hate suffs. I won't give their names. I don't agree with all of them, right? But when I say, like, that show is not the champion of the community, like you'd want to believe it is, there are people who really fucking hated it, but also people who hated Outsiders, people who hated Notebook. Everyone has their haters, sure, but someone wrote in after Outsiders, one that basically was like, you know, homoerotic fangirl pandering based off of a, you know, YA novel from a 16 year old. Like, that is not the move. I'm like, okay, first of all, I let us not undermine the achievement of a 16 year old woman writing a classic that has endured for decades.

[James Soule]

Read in high schools today, right?

[Matt Koplik]

It was mandatory reading when I was in school. Like, if I could do one thing in my life at the age of 16 that lasted as long as that did for Essie Hinton, I'd be sad. But also, like, she also then went on to write a bunch of other books that also became classics in the genre. Like, it's not like she was a one and done trick pony.

[James Soule]

She.

[Matt Koplik]

She did the fucking thing. So that already is an achievement. And I don't like someone trying to undermine that for the sake of being a snarky cunt then. And also I've. One of the reasons why I wasn't totally sold that Outsiders could win three weeks ago was because the fan base for it, currently the most fervent, is like, the young girl fan base. And we as a society don't tend to take young girls seriously. And granted the way they act, the Jonas Brothers concerts make you. Makes you go, yeah, sure, you go, suffs had it wrong. Women shouldn't be allowed to vote.

[James Soule]

Justified.

[Matt Koplik]

Justified. But there is something about Outsiders that I do find very compelling, and it is just so theatrical. Then the next thing about it being homoerotic, like, it's a dig. I sit here going, and what challengers is homoerotic? And it's my favorite movie of the year so far.

[James Soule]

Right. You know, the thing that's. I feel like both explicitly and implicitly, that that's. That that's come up as we've been talking is, okay, parts of a whole and then the whole. Yeah, right. And so the whole is an experience. Right. The whole encompasses every single element from the moment that you walk into that theater to, you know, to the curtain call or even the. From the moment that you exit. Right. So that's. That's every single design component and how they all fit together into the puzzle. That's. That's how the director brings it all together. That's how the director brings it all together around the people and bodies that are on the stage. And then on top of that, the way that the choreographer does all that when the choreographer. When the choreography needs to continue to tell the story. So that. That's the whole. Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And that's the category. That's the final category for the evening. Right. So, like, as much as we want. Might want to latch onto, say, oh, my God, this music, that thing, I can't get over it. I'm so affected and moved by the score. Legit opinions all around for all the shows, I'm sure. But again, that's only one part of the whole.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, right. I mean, think about this is. I hate this comparison Because I do think Outsiders is overall a better musical than what I'm about to compare it to. But think about the era of Phantom versus Into the Woods. Sure, Phantom wins design and direction, but nothing for its writing. And everyone goes, well, how can you win musical if not for your writing? And, you know, fandom obviously was just such an undeniable juggernaut that you could not vote for it. It was. It had done so much for the community by just being the hit that it was. Yeah, but we also forget that into the woods was not, like, universally beloved when it opened.

[James Soule]

You're right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Everyone was like, this is very clever. This is very, you know, smart.

[James Soule]

The most commercial of Sondheim's shows.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was successful overall. Like, it ran for two years and made money. Yeah. But it was. And people didn't walk out going, oh, my God, that's like another one for the Sondheim canon. In fact, my friend Ben Rimmelauer, who has the podcast Giants in the sky, it's a great one every. He needs to alter the sound for some of those guests, but other than that, it does need to get a.

[James Soule]

Little louder for some of them.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but he's not going to do it. And I. You know what? Respect.

[James Soule]

I love the introduction is funny because it's something like how Sondheim and Lupine went into the book into the woods with me.

[Matt Koplik]

So it sounds like, like, he was there with them. He was in the room where it happened. But he talks about, like, into the woods is not his favorite Sondheim by a long stretch, but it is a major one. And it took a long time for a lot of people to kind of sign on Phantom, Undeniable out the gate, even if you don't love the show. But also, I will say, having seen the original production of Phantom of the Opera a handful of times over many a few years, I saw it twice.

[James Soule]

I saw once on tour at the Kennedy center, and then I saw it in South Korea.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. So I saw it in 1999 with Sandra Joseph and Hugh Panero. I then saw it again in 2007 with, you guessed it, Sandra Joseph and Hugh Pinero.

[James Soule]

Wait, I think I might have seen it around 19. 1999. It would have been 98.

[Matt Koplik]

99 with Sandra Joseph and Hugh Panero.

[James Soule]

I don't think it was either of.

[Matt Koplik]

Them, but so I first saw it in 99. I was like, okay, that was fun enough. And then I saw it again in 07, maybe 06, and that changed my mind about the show. Not that it Was brilliant. But I was like, oh, this production works like a motherfucker.

[James Soule]

Oh, 100%.

[Matt Koplik]

I then saw it. I saw their dress rehearsal for the reopening post Covid, where they made some changes, which were dumb. And then I saw it again, like, two months later to take a friend who had never seen.

[James Soule]

Oh, you've seen it a lot. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

But not intentionally. Like, I was. I was invited.

[James Soule]

Various reasons.

[Matt Koplik]

I was invited to the dress rehearsal.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

A friend. Really?

[James Soule]

I'm sure that was exciting. Post Covid Absolutely shut down.

[Matt Koplik]

And then my friend really, really wanted to see if she had never seen it before. I was like, okay, I'll go with you. And then I got invited to the 35th anniversary performance. But I will say the first 20 minutes of Phantom of the Opera is a fucking magic trick. It sets a tone and it gets you excited about something where nothing has really happened.

[James Soule]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Look, all the complaints about the story, and it's a very lean story.

[Matt Koplik]

And, you know, the sexual politics that are not great.

[James Soule]

Problematic title character, all of that. Legit. 100% legit. And at the time it opened, I mean, stagecraft that had really ever exist, that had never been seen like that.

[Matt Koplik]

Before, and a hunger for a purely romantic, lush musical.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because the 80s were. It's so weird because the 80s had a lot of epic, earnest musicals, but it was a very cynical decade. So you see, like. So, like, it's a.

[James Soule]

There's an earnestness to it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That people are yearning for in their art.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Which I also talk about this with the mega musicals in past series. Like, what makes shows like Les Mis and Phantoms and Cats and Miss Saigon, like Universal to all these other countries. In a way that Sondheim musicals take a longer time to do is that they are able to reach people on a chemical level through their music and their lushness.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And their lack of sarcasm.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it makes it easier to make fun of. And you can find so many issues with them. And believe me, I got issues with plenty of those shows.

[James Soule]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

But ultimately, there was something about it that connects.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Outsiders, I think, connects with a lot of people, even if there are bumps in the road.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, the score, I think is fine. It does the job if it's not maybe, like, the most well crafted score. But also, I don't think any.

[James Soule]

What's so good in bringing back around to outsiders.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. Well, that was the whole point, really.

[James Soule]

Well done.

[Matt Koplik]

It was a point. But, like, someone wrote, like, I'm glad that Hell's Kitchen didn't win. But I do think that Outsiders and Hell's Kitchen are both trash. I'm like, hell, Outsiders is not trash. It's. It's just not. It's. It's. At the very least, it's above that. I will grant you that it's mid. I will grant you that it's, like, underwhelming. After hearing such great things, I think it's quite good. I don't think it's amazing, but I don't think any musical this season was amazing. Even Illinois, I have my issues with. And that's my favorite of the musicals I saw this year. So, you know, we're. You deal with the competition you have, and you win out over who you're up against.

[James Soule]

Yeah, Right. The context of the current season Outsiders.

[Matt Koplik]

Wasn'T up against Kimberly Akimbo haters.

[James Soule]

It was not up against Sunday in the park with George.

[Matt Koplik]

No. It was up against Hell's Kitchen.

[James Soule]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Water for Elephants. And it won. Yeah, yeah. You know, like Jerome Robbins, Broadway would not have beat City of Angels.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes, right.

[Matt Koplik]

It beat Black and Blue and Starmites.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Sunset Boulevard won best context of the season.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Sunset Boulevard won best score and best book against nobody.

[James Soule]

Yes, that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

So there we go.

[James Soule]

Yeah. That was the year Glenn Close and Rebecca Luker. Those are the only two nominees for.

[Matt Koplik]

You had. You had someone with a gorgeous voice and maybe not the best actress and then someone who's a great actress and maybe not the most gorgeous voice.

[James Soule]

Yeah, but that was it.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, that was it.

[James Soule]

Those were the only options. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

One might call it a Sophie's Choice, wouldn't it? Do you go for the one one could. Do you go for the one who gives you the musical or the one who gives you the theater?

[James Soule]

Oh, gosh. I mean, her record, Luber's voice is like crystal.

[Matt Koplik]

It's my favorite. Wishing you were somehow here again.

[James Soule]

She's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's dumb how beautiful that woman's voice was at.

[James Soule]

And. And, you know, Norma has these power ballads that mixed in with the sort of movie star glamour that is just a part of who Glenn Close was.

[Matt Koplik]

Or is and always will be.

[James Soule]

Yeah. I think, you know, the showier role.

[Matt Koplik]

Won, I think, as I said before.

[James Soule]

Both skilled performers, actors, singers, even, and. Yeah. And. But the showier role in that.

[Matt Koplik]

In that one. One. And as I've said before, I do not like Sunset Boulevard. I think she's a bad musical, and I'm excited to see it. Get with.

[James Soule]

Yes. I'm excited.

[Matt Koplik]

In a dirty way. In this. In. In the.

[James Soule]

In a dirty way. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh, they are. They are.

[James Soule]

It's gonna get dirty. They're gonna do something literally messy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I'm excited.

[James Soule]

Literally messy. There's mess. Yeah. In it. It.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't wait.

[James Soule]

From. From the pictures and. And little bit of video that I've seen.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't. West End production wait.

[James Soule]

Yeah, me too.

[Matt Koplik]

Do it.

[James Soule]

I am looking forward to next season. I am. There's a lot of really good stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

That I want to see and stuff that I'm hoping is good, but I'm still kind of skeptical about actually that.

[James Soule]

I. I should have restated it like that. There's a lot that I want to see that I'm hoping is good.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, same. Same. Yeah, we. We. We go with open arms and side eye is how I. Is how I describe it.

[James Soule]

Or maybe side eye. Ready to go if needed.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, open minded. Arm's length. That's how I put it. I go with an open minded arm's length.

[James Soule]

I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you so much. James. We did it.

[James Soule]

I know we did it. And I think less time than we did it last time.

[Matt Koplik]

Possible. I mean, we'll see how long this ends up being.

[James Soule]

Just.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think we did four and a Four and a half hours today, which is how long.

[James Soule]

That. That's what it.

[Matt Koplik]

It was. That is how long it took us to do Ms. Ion.

[James Soule]

Yeah. I hope your listeners can tolerate all the silly things that I said. So.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I did four hours of ranking of shows this season and people stuck around for all of it.

[James Soule]

Well, yeah, but it's because you're. That's because it's your show. I'm some rando that's. That's popped in.

[Matt Koplik]

You are a Lucille Lortel nominated performer. You are in movies, sir. What was the one you just did?

[James Soule]

It's called Problemista.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. All right. What's your part in that?

[James Soule]

I play man in parentheses, cleaning boy, fetish. On my Instagram. I say man, parentheses, cleaning boy, fetish, and the Juilliard School. I feel like that juxtaposition is very important.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You need people to know that you were trained to be a fetish.

[James Soule]

Yes, that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Love it. Love it. James, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[James Soule]

I am on Instagram. Amesoule. All one word. J, A, M, E S S E O L. And that's it.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm on Instagram. Matt Koplik. Usual spelling we didn't really talk about play, but that was stereophonic. We knew that was gonna happen. We didn't talk about.

[James Soule]

We talked maybe we talked enough about stereophonic throughout the course of the.

[Matt Koplik]

And we talked about like revival musical a little bit about revival level play, but like we always knew that was going to be appropriate. There was a moment people thought it could be Pearly Victorious because the PBS broadcast, but I think that really just benefited Cara more than the show and.

[James Soule]

Oh, that's good insight. Yeah, that's good analysis.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was again and same as I said with Jeremy Strong. Like Jeremy won so they could honor Enemy of the People. Cara won so they could honor Pearly Victorious and an appropriate one so they could honor appropriate. If you like this podcast guys, if you've made it through this far, you can give us a nice 5 star rating or review. If you give us a review, I will read it it on the pod. We got a new one, one that my mom really fucking loved and I'm gonna read it right now. So please play the light of the Piazza Overture. Five stars. Matt, how you slay. I listen to a number of podcasts, but Broadway Breakdown is sublime. An absolute must. Listened to Matt and his mom this morning recounting their six day trip to London and it was. She loved their thoughtful analysis of the four shows they saw and all the things they did. I have to make a note about this in a second when I finish the review. Matt has such a gorgeously nuanced and always honest take on theater and life in general. He's also luminously witty and charming. He said today that he's a meek mouse with the voice of a lion, but don't believe it. He's the most in control, intelligent and authoritative host out there and I just can't get enough of his brilliance. Lord. And by the way, he uses this brilliance to bring out the best in his guests. James, Matt, please come to San Francisco and do An Evening with Matt Koplik in which you simply talk for two and a half hours. Only two and a half hours. Show some clips and take Q and a. Castro Theater is closed for renovations at the moment. Isn't that a pretty big theater? But there's the Curran, Curran, Curran. That's also like 2,000 seats. The Tony Rembe Reem, which is the ACT theater. Okay. Strand, Norris Auditorium or the Herbst. Or if you do a Broadway Breakdown cruise, sign me up. Matt, you're the best. Thank you so much.

[James Soule]

Wow, what a lovely review.

[Matt Koplik]

The people who write reviews, when I say like, hey, want to write a review? They. They take it fucking seriously.

[James Soule]

And so, like concise and precise.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well. And I'd also. I'd set a, A goal for us to reach 255 or 231 to reach 255.

[James Soule]

Yeah, you've mentioned that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

By the end of June. And if we did that, I would share a scene from the play that I wrote that that made it to the semifinals for the Terence McNally Newarks incubator, and we would do the scene that I had to submit to get to that section. We're actually going to film some of the plays soon because we were going to do a reading, but now developmental contracts are on stall with. Oh, yes, Equity. But we found a way around that. So we're gonna, we're gonna do a little something something, and I'll share it once we hit 2. 255, preferably at the end of June. If we don't hit that by the end of June, then by the end of July, we got to hit 265. So.

[James Soule]

I like it.

[Matt Koplik]

Just. Just telling y' all now, but a couple people wrote in with the messages this past 24 hours. They're like, this isn't about the Tonys, but I just want to say, like, your mom is, is amazing. Like. Like she is honest and she slays like, oh my gosh, I love it.

[James Soule]

That's the episode that I need to catch up on.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

That's the most recent, recent one.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. I make a sports reference and I, I get it it all wrong. And my mom's like, don't do sports analogies. You don't know what you're talking about.

[James Soule]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And someone wrote in, they're like, I loved it when your mom told you not to do that.

[James Soule]

Oh my God, what a wonderful thing for. For someone to sit across from you here to talk about the thing that you want to talk about, but also know you so well.

[Matt Koplik]

And even she. Well, we finished. And when we finished recording, she was like, you're really good at this. I was like, well, I've been doing it now for a few years. I'm hoping that I'm okay at it by now. I'm hoping.

[James Soule]

Yeah, you're fine.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's okay.

[James Soule]

You're no Ben Rimmelauer.

[Matt Koplik]

I never planned to be. Sometimes you got to know your limitations.

[James Soule]

True.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Some people sit on high, like Ben, and some of us are just happy to be in the third tier of the David Koch theater watching the Tony Awards, claiming that Alicia Keys gave her the performance of the night. On that note. On that note, James, we close that at every episode with it with a Broadway diva. Who do you want to close us out today? And if you say Alicia Keys, I will punch you in the dick.

[James Soule]

I almost did, but then you threatened me.

[Matt Koplik]

I sure did.

[James Soule]

I will rescind that potential joint. You know what? Wait, who? I said someone last time. I might repeat the same person. Well, you know what? Since we talked about her this evening in this conversation. Bernadette Peters.

[Matt Koplik]

Fantastic. Yeah, yeah, we'll do Bernadette Peters.

[James Soule]

Yay.

[Matt Koplik]

Bernardette. You are lovely, James. This has been wonderful.

[James Soule]

Such a great time. Thanks for having me.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you for coming on. I think we're gonna have an episode next week. I can't recall either next week or the week after. We're slowly coming back. Since the London trip, it's all been sea legs, and this has been a very busy week coming up, so. I don't know. I don't know. We'll. We'll figure it out. We're gonna figure it out, guys. Don't you worry. Either way, Happy Pride. Thank you for listening and. And let's look forward to next season. All right, take it away, Bernardette. Bye.

[James Soule]

I fell in love with love One night when the moon was full I was unwise with eyes unable to see I fell in love with love with love everlasting what love that J.