[title of show] w/ Tyler Joseph Ellis

Summary

Broadway Breakdown - "[title of show]" w/ Tyler Joseph Ellis

Podcast Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Tyler Joseph Ellis
Date: July 6, 2023

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant episode, host Matt Koplik welcomes theater creator and social media personality Tyler Joseph Ellis to discuss [title of show], the cult hit meta-musical by Hunter Bell and Jeff Bowen. This conversation is part of "The Big Move" series, focusing on musicals that had successful Off-Broadway runs before transferring to Broadway. Matt and Tyler unpack the genesis, structure, humor, and emotional resonance of [title of show], its impact on their own creative journeys, and its enduring message for artists.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Essence and Impact of [title of show]

• Meta-Musical Origins

  • [title of show] is about Hunter Bell and Jeff Bowen writing a musical about writing a musical. It chronicles their creative process, with their real-life friends Susan Blackwell and Heidi Blickenstaff joining as themselves to tell the story of the show's journey from an idea to Off-Broadway glory, and then to Broadway ([04:24]).

    “It‘s about two guys writing a musical about two guys writing musical about two guys writing a musical.” - Tyler ([04:24])

  • It’s often described as a “musical that chronicles its own inception or like a snake eating its own tail” ([06:05]).

• The ‘title of show’ Show and Social Media Savvy

  • In the gap between Off-Broadway and Broadway, the creators launched the title of show show, a homemade internet series that kept their small but dedicated fanbase engaged and innovatively built buzz ([06:29]).

    “...No one was doing Internet content alongside, like on their own, producing it themselves alongside their own show...” – Tyler ([06:29])

• Personal Stories: How the Show Shaped the Hosts

  • Tyler’s own journey: Brought the show to his high school, produced and starred in it, and was shocked to have creator Hunter Bell show up to their production ([11:16]-[12:24]). He credits [title of show] and its creators with inspiring his own creative path and online presence.
  • Matt similarly recounts discovering the show in high school, bonding with friends over it, and even creating a web series in its style before seeing it on Broadway ([13:43]-[15:28]).

Friendship and Marginalized Voices

• Healthy Depictions of Gay Men & Straight Women Friendships

  • The relationships in [title of show] are compared to those in other works but noted for their genuine, mutual, and non-condescending quality ([16:12]-[17:46]).

    “...this is such a healthy friendship. It’s pure love and no condescension, anyway.” – Matt ([16:51])

• Contextualizing Queer Representation

  • The hosts critique dated TV portrayals of gay men as accessories, crediting [title of show] as a contrast for its authenticity ([17:47]-[18:30]).

The Creative Process, Self-Doubt, and “Die Vampire, Die!”

• Defeating 'Vampires' of Self-Doubt

  • Susan Blackwell’s showstopper "Die, Vampire, Die!" is dissected for its honest yet comedic take on creative insecurity ([41:45]-[44:33]):

    “...if you look at your self-doubt... as a physical form, [like] a vampire, you can start defeating it; like you can kill a vampire, but when it’s this amorphous thing... that’s when it gets paralyzing.” – Tyler ([43:56])

  • The song’s structure—using humor to disarm and then hitting hard with genuine vulnerability—epitomizes the show's voice.

• The “Nine People’s Favorite Thing” Mantra

  • The show’s central philosophy: It’s better to be “nine people's favorite thing than a hundred people's ninth favorite thing.” This has been adopted by many as a mantra but is discussed in terms of how far to take it; critical feedback is still important ([39:14]-[40:23]).

    “There’s a difference between ego and passion.” – Matt ([40:13])

The Joy (and Pain) of Niche and Broadway Community

• Niche Theater as a Home Base

  • Both hosts relate to the show’s celebration of Broadway and deep-cut theater references (“Henry Sweet Henry jokes and Doll’s Life”) ([35:04]).
  • [title of show] is praised for balancing meta-humor, deep sincerity, and a loving but self-aware look at the Broadway ecosystem.

• Handling Commercial Pressure and Collaboration

  • The show’s Act 2 drama—about potential success changing the core of the project and creators—is described as grounded and empathetic ([81:29]-[83:32]):

    “He begins to stray from what the four of them set out to do in search of, you know, commercial success... It always makes sense. You’re never like, ‘Hunter is such a dick.’” – Tyler ([81:56])

• The Beauty of Limitations

  • The minimalist staging and resource constraints of the original production are celebrated as fostering ingenuity (the show’s inventive, precise, “pedestrian meets showbiz” choreography) ([57:45]-[60:37]).

    “With limitation comes creativity, and oh, my God, did they have limits.” – Tyler ([60:37])

Favorite Songs and Standout Numbers

• Tyler’s top picks:
  • “Nine People’s Favorite Thing” for its energy and guiding philosophy ([36:11])
  • "Die, Vampire, Die!" as the comedic and emotional center ([36:59])
  • “Way Back to Then” for its bittersweet, honest look at why we create art ([73:30]-[78:07])
• “Part of It All” is highlighted as especially resonant for anyone dreaming of being part of the Broadway community ([70:40]-[71:17]).

Notable Inside Jokes, Fourth-Wall Breaks & Theater Lore

• The inside-Baseball meta-references (e.g., drag queen names, failed musicals, endless Sondheim and Into the Woods bits) are both a blessing and a barrier—the show “lets the audience into the club,” but can feel exclusive, a point Matt and Tyler underscore as both a feature and the source of some early Broadway critics’ backlash ([64:31]-[66:24]).
• Projections and rapid-fire references are celebrated: “Monkeys and Playbills” and cameo voice-mails from Broadway greats (Sutton Foster, Emily Skinner, Patti LuPone, Christine Ebersole, etc.) are dissected ([84:54]-[87:51]).

The Show’s Ongoing Legacy

• The original cast (Hunter, Jeff, Heidi, Susan, director Michael Berresse, and pianist Larry Pressgrove) are still friends and sometimes collaborate.
• Tyler calls for a future concert, reunion, or reworking of the show starring a new cast while remaining meta about the process ([54:28]-[64:13]).
• Both hosts agree the show is an inspiring blueprint for DIY creative success in the era of social media ([51:00]-[52:00]).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Creative Process:

  “Everything I do has a little bit title of show in it...It wasn’t super foreign to me to think that I could make sketches and funny videos and put them on the Internet—because title of Show taught me, like, how to do that.” – Tyler ([09:41])

• On Self-Doubt and Artistic Courage:

  “Just because it’s in your head doesn’t mean it’s true.” – Matt ([44:27])

• On Niche Art:

  “This show isn’t really a show because it’s just four people who make each other laugh. I’m like, but that’s when niche is right.” – Matt ([65:18])

• On Friendship and Collaboration:

  “Not only do the four of them, like, understand each other on such a friendship level, but they were able to collaborate and create two really great musicals...that’s lightning in a bottle to me. It is so special.” – Tyler ([115:34])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:22 – Introduction to “The Big Move” series
• 04:24 – What is [title of show]? The meta premise
• 11:16 – Tyler’s journey with the show, bringing it to high school, meeting the creators
• 13:43 – Matt’s high school experience, web series, seeing the show on Broadway
• 16:12 – Discussion on friendship dynamics and representation
• 39:14 – The meaning and limits of “Nine People’s Favorite Thing”
• 41:45 – “Die, Vampire, Die!” dissected
• 57:45 – Staging, choreography, minimalism, and creative constraints
• 73:30 – Favorite moments: “Way Back to Then” and the finale
• 104:09 – How the show handles obscure references and meta-humor
• 112:25 – The impact on the original cast’s careers
• 125:09 – On the show’s inspirational, contagious creativity

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Style, Language, and Tone

• The conversation is informal, irreverent, passionate, and peppered with in-jokes, deep cuts, and explicit language—mirroring the meta, self-aware, and affectionate tone of [title of show] itself.
• The hosts shift from sincere analysis to cutting humor seamlessly, reflecting the show’s balance of heart and snark.

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Final Thoughts

Matt and Tyler frame [title of show] as an enduring beacon for theater artists and fans: a love letter to creative risk-taking, unapologetic nerdiness, healthy collaboration, and the audacity to believe that “throwing spaghetti at the wall” is a worthy way forward. They credit it as a vital work in their own creative lives and argue for its continued relevance to both established and aspiring theater makers.

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End Note:

“This show for everyone who might discover it and not love it—there’s gonna be someone who’s gonna discover it and love it. It’s a bomb in so many ways.” – Matt ([123:32])

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For more, follow Tyler on social media (@tylerjosephellis), Matt on Instagram (@mattkoplik), and subscribe to Broadway Breakdown for future deep cuts and candid commentary on the American musical theater canon.

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(Closing song: Carol Channing - “Jazz Baby”)

Transcript

[Matt Koplik]

A D, D, D, D, F sharp A will be the first notes of our show. We'll start with the seed of an idea, then plant it onto paper with.

[Billy]

A Dixon Ticonderoga, and then watch it.

[Matt Koplik]

Sprout into a musical. And then we'll help to make it grow bigger. Nothing guarantees it will stand out. Hello, all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the deal. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move, and it was covering shows that had six such success off Broadway. They just had to move to the great White Way and try some luck over there. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. Although, not to brag, I do think I have to start changing that title soon. I don't think I'm the least famous anymore. I think I'm like. I think I'm now, like, bottom third.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Bottom third.

[Matt Koplik]

As opposed to bottom of the barrel.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

My guest today. I can't call you the moment because your moment has lasted quite long. Moments in the woods are fleeting.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

You haven't fleeted.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That means a lot to me. Thank you so much.

[Matt Koplik]

You're very welcome. You're not. You're not Fleeting week. You're.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm not Fleet week.

[Matt Koplik]

Your Memorial Day. We're always thinking of you. Happy Memorial Day. We're always thinking of you. You might know him as the person on social media who reads all theater kids for filth, and we're talking about a good show for that. Please welcome Tyler Joseph Ellis.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Hi.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello.

[Guest D]

Hello.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm so excited to be here. I truly am a fan first. So. So I'm so excited I get to be on the pod.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm so happy to have you on the pod. You are a very funny dividge.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Thanks.

[Matt Koplik]

Unfortunately, social media does not indicate the intelligence of most people, so I'm very happy that I got to find you on our beloved friend Kyle Marshall's podcast.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

We love Kyle Marshall in this house.

[Matt Koplik]

Where, I mean, I don't know what's gonna happen today. We're probably not gonna be intelligent today. Probably not. But if you want any reassurance that Tyler is, in fact, an exceptionally intelligent and insightful human being.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

You can go on Putting it Together by Kyle Marshall. And he has a most recent episode on. It's Finishing the Hat. Right? It's beautiful. Oh, beautiful. It is beautiful. It's beautiful. That's Even better, because that's a deeper cut.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's a much deeper cut.

[Matt Koplik]

And not only that, but Tyler does reference my episode on that episode.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I do. I mentioned the episode.

[Matt Koplik]

She's an ally, everybody.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm an ally, first and foremost. Happy pride. I'm straight myself, as you can tell from my voice.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And our very short shorts. We both could not be more straight.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

We both arrive, and I'm like, oh, thank God. Because I was so nervous to wear shorts, and now I'm like, the legs are out.

[Matt Koplik]

They are out. And the girls.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

The gams are out. Tyler, what episode of episode. What musical are we talking about today?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm so thrilled to be talking about title of show today.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Now, this is the second show that wasn't on my original roster of shows to cover. But as I got further along with this series, there were some shows I had trouble getting people to cover. Like no One Will Touch for Colored Girls. And it makes me sad.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, I love that show. As do I. I loved that revival.

[Matt Koplik]

It was a really lovely revival. I don't know if I loved the. The computer screens, but otherwise.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, I forgot about that. No, the performances were just so brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, they were all gorging. But I've been having trouble getting people to sign off on that. No one, for some reason, will touch in the Heights. I'm like, but she's delightful. But so I was like, you know what? I'm like, you know what? Let me lean in and, like, let me start asking people any Off Broadway shows they would want to cover.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so we just did Spelling Bee with Todd Battlepane, who's a Dream. And then I reached out to you.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And I gave you a list of, like, options. Then you're like, well, I mean, how about this one?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And I was like, oh, how about this one? You're like, okay, off Broadway to Broadway. I mean, I can't think of a better chronicle of that than a show that writes itself and covers that absolutely Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I mean, honestly, if ever there was a Broadway musical. That is the vibe of this podcast.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's exactly. That feels right, right?

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I forgot how formative that show was for me when it came out. And we'll get into all of her, but first of all, for those who are unaware, uncultured Fox, as we like to call.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

What is title of show about?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Title of show is about two best friends and creative partners, Hunter and Jeff, who are real people. Hunter Bell and Jeff Bowen, who Are sort of, you know, unhappy with their current, you know, stasis. And they get word of a new musical theater festival. One of them pitches to the other. Maybe we should write something. It's like, oh, but the deadline is due in three weeks. So that gives us what, three weeks? And then they write. So they decide, you know, this is more of a creative challenge, more of like a, you know, with no expectations. So they decide to write a show, get selected for the festival, and you see all. You see the show that they're writing as they're writing it. So it's so what they always say. It's about two guys writing a musical about two guys writing musical about two guys writing a musical. And they elicit the help from their two friends. Jeff. I was gonna say Jeff. Susan and Heidi. Based on obviously real people, because they are real people. Susan Blackwell and Heidi Blickenstaff and their trials and tribulations as they try to get the show to Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. And the show has had many incarnations because there's the literal version that went to the festival because the whole thing came about of literally they didn't know what to write. I'm like, well, if you wrote about us trying to write a musical for the festival, and it gets into the festival and then from. From there they got some fancy producers attached and went to the Eugene o' Neill Theater Center. Then they opened at the Vineyard Off Broadway and did two stints there. And so they expanded the show to include that journey and then eventually goes to Broadway and they included that journey.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And yeah, so it's. If you watch the title of Shoshone, which will absolutely get into the way that they describe it is sort of.

[Guest D]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a musical that chronicles its own inception or like a snake eating its own. Oh, it's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

What does Susan say? She's like. Or the musical that eats its own tail.

[Matt Koplik]

Like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Sucking your own dingus. Happy New Year, grandma.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Jesus Christ.

[Matt Koplik]

I watched a lot of title the show show in preparation for this.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I rewatch it maybe every six months. Like all the episodes.

[Matt Koplik]

They're quite fun.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's ingenious. Like it was before anything. No one was doing Internet content alongside, like on their own. Producing it themselves alongside their own, you know, show and trying to get it that. Because it was in the in between period of the Vineyard and Broadway, they were. Yeah, they had no real sort of hope. Like, they had so much hope, but not really a lot of prospects in terms of making a transfer. So they're like, well, we have kind of niche fans of this show, so let's keep making content sort of about the show and see what happens. And I guess we're not going to spoil what ends up happening. Well, it goes to Broadway.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because we've already said that and we're.

[Matt Koplik]

Talking about on this and we're talking.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

About on this podcast. But, yeah, it's. It changed the game in that way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, it's. And it's. It's a very inspiring tale for any creatives about not accepting sort of the rules of how shows get produced and sort of fighting for your moment and making your own opportunities and then just like always championing yourself and finding new ways to get people talking about you. It's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

We.

[Matt Koplik]

We will go into that a bit more. I think if there's any two people who can tell you, like, there are multiple avenues to get your name out there for people is.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's so true. That's so true.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I. I don't think I could have told you four years ago that, like, there are certain people in the community who I, like, now speak to regularly.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Purely because of social media. Just like exactly. Of writing reviews or doing the podcast and same thing with you, with all of your content. Yeah. It's like, who would have thunk?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Who would have thunk?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, precisely. Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, it's. It's absolutely insane. In fact, actually, I was going to tell you this, but now I'm going to do it. We're best friends now.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, obviously.

[Matt Koplik]

We were at the same performance of Parade back in, I want to say, late march.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

On Broadway.

[Guest D]

Yeah, on Broadway.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Okay, got it.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I didn't see it at City Center. I was busy. Yeah, but I saw you get recognized by, like, one or two people, and I. And I thought that was so cool.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, thank you for saying that.

[Matt Koplik]

It is true. And I don't know. I didn't know you yet, but you seem like a decent person. I don't think so now.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, I mean, obviously that. That illusion has been broken.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I don't even want to let you all know what he said before.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Can you imagine?

[Matt Koplik]

I'm just.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I mean, cancel him.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean. Yes, but, you know, I saw you get recognized by a few people. I was like, that's so cool. Like, the outreach of social media and always, like, trying new things and then just getting yourself out there and not sort of accepting the normal path of, like, well, if I want to become famous, I must audition for a show. And then get into the show and be the lead of show. It's like I can make my own opportunities to create my own content.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I appreciate you saying that so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you not. Do you not believe that?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, I believe it. I just. I pinch myself every day. Like I. Because it's the same. You put it so perfectly that people in the industry that you maybe looked up to or were fans of are now like peers.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And that shift happened. It. I guess it was over the course of three years, but it feels so fast. So you saying that. I'm like, yeah, it is cra. Every single time anyone comes up to me, I'm like, what?

[Matt Koplik]

Like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And I say this almost every single time anyone cuts. Like, I love your videos. And what I say back to them is like, I make them alone in my apartment. Just to be like, this is so strange that something that I set up my green screen and it's silent in my apartment and I do my little bits and then edit them on imovie and then put them on the Internet. And the fact that it reaches strangers is still very strange to me. I don't know. I just can't believe it. So anyway, but I think I. I will get into why the show means a lot to me in particular, but I think I. Everything I do has a little bit subtitle of show in it. I'm so glad we're talking about it because I think part of the reason why I wasn't. It wasn't super foreign to me to think that I could, you know, make some sketches and funny videos and put them on the Internet. Because title of show. The title of show show taught me, like, how to do that. So I am forever indebted to this show. It all comes back. It all comes back at all.

[Matt Koplik]

We found our way back to then.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Yes. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So what was your introduction to this show? Tell me about your journey.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I was a junior in high school, and my high school theater teacher, Kim Taylor sort of really saw me go from a person interested in theater to like a theater kid to like a theater obsessed kid. She sort of watched my. I started doing summer programs, et cetera, et cetera, and started getting really, really into it. And she saw that I was starting to really get into theater history and. And just being obsessed about random niche shows. And then she's like, wait, you would love this musical title of show. I was like, okay. And then so it was the end of my junior year of high school, started listening to title show, started getting obsessed with Title show and then made the decision. I was like, next year, my swan song, my senior year of high school will be to do it. I'm gonna produce it and direct it. I didn't have any intention of being in it. But then auditions happened. I'm like, I'm gonna be Jeff because. And. And then I.

[Matt Koplik]

You wanted to take your top off.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I wanted to.

[Guest D]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm not taking my shirt off.

[Matt Koplik]

Both of you take your fucking shirts off so we can sell some tickets to the show.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But I ended up. So then we, we did it legally because I think Title show is unfortunately a very easy show to do illegally because it's only a keyboard. So you can get the score and sort of put it on. Yeah, but don't do that. Please give the writers of the show their due.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So we did it legally, got the rights, everything, and we took it to a theater competition in the Bay Area called Ohlone Theatre Festival, which is no more. But it was a high school theater competition and we brought a 10 minute version of title of show before we ended up doing the production, ended up winning the festival because a lot of kids, I mean, they don't know the show. And we like cut together a 10 minute version that was so pandered to the audience, like the high school theater kids, you know, and we kept posting about it, whatever. Little did we know the writers of the show were following along on our journey for the show. Like we didn't, like they weren't interacting or anything. But Hunter and Jeff and like they were all watching us, you know, because they, of course they love the show, just as you know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So we did our show as a one night only show in May. It was the last thing I did in high school. And I staged it so that we started on stage. So we were like jamming out to show tunes as people walked in. Little did I know, Hunter Bell walks into the theater and he happened to be in California and he. And he walks into the theater with a couple of his friends. And my theater teacher's like, oh my God. And sees him. There's no way to tell me. And there's no intermission. There's no way to tell me that he's there. So we do the whole show and we go backstage and he's waiting for us. And it was like one of the best moments in my entire life. And yeah, so since then I've remained in contact with Jeff and Hunter. I've now worked sort of with Susan. I helped her because I ended up working for a New York musical festival. Because I followed the title, I was like, I want to work there. So I was their marketing intern. And then she was like one of the honorary people that year, so got to know her. And now I've gotten to know Heidi because of the Jagged Little Pill tour. And I have a few friends on it, so it's just. It's all. And I went to the 10 year anniversary in 2018. Title show, like, is so important to me and really set me on a journey, you know, because they believed. I mean, Hunter's praise for the show really made me believe that I could do this and went to college for it and everything.

[Matt Koplik]

And now we have a full blown monster in front of us.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And now I'm a monster.

[Matt Koplik]

A monster.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's my long winded story. But, I mean, this show means so much to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I. Funnily enough, I also got into the show junior year of high school.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think because my.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So they were at the Vineyard in February of 06, and then they had a second stint that July. And so they ended, I think, in October of 06, which was the beginning of my junior year. And I fully did not catch it at the Vineyard, even though I was a city kid, for some reason, just. It just wasn't on my radar. I don't know why. And it was and was until the cast album came out. And I had certain friends who were super into it and introduced me to it. Ali Gordon, godmother of the pod, she introduced me to it, and I just became fully obsessed. And we would listen to it and I would try to, like, decipher it as much as I could. And then our senior year of high school was when the title of the show show started.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, nice. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. Wow. And so I got to put, you know, faces to the voices and get more insight into what the show was about. And I was so into the title of Show Show. And then when they finally did announce they were coming to Broadway, it was the summer before I left for college. And Ali, myself, and then our friends Lillian, Jeremy created our own, like, little web series in honor of it.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not telling anyone the title. Please don't look it up. I'm not super proud of it because we were. We were 18 and, you know, with a flip phone camera, every now and then, there's like a good one liner here and there. But, like, I will say, because Ally and I wrote the scripts and, you know, we're. We're we were also kind of like, figuring out where to toe the line of, like, doing jokes just for us and jokes that someone else would like. There's, like, a lot of Doctor who jokes that I wasn't getting at the time.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, got it.

[Matt Koplik]

Like that.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But there's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

There's.

[Matt Koplik]

You, like, if you ever see it, you'll be like, oh, there's a nugget in there. But it's still. It's very much 18 year olds putting a thing together.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And it. But it led us to go see the show when it was in previews at the Lyceum. And, like, we went backstage and we met Susan, we met Hunter, and I think we even have a photo with Hunter. And that was really lovely. And then when the show closed, I went back for the final performance with Lily and Jeremy. Allie was at Michigan at that point, so she couldn't fly back. But that. Yeah, that show always just had a place in our hearts as these, like, nerdy theater kids who were so in love with. With the community, with the history. And to watch the Broadway community kind of rally behind the show felt so cool. And like, Hunter, Jeff, Susan, and Heidi felt like a quartet you just wanted to, like, be friends with.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's exactly what it is.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, I do. So. Okay. There's a lot I do want to discuss, but I did write in my notes when watching it at the library again. Because they filmed it at the Vineyard.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which we'll talk about all that as well. So much we'll talk about. But I do want to talk about sort of the friendship dynamics in the show, because if you.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

If there's something I do love about this show and it's important because I don't know if it's gonna be the episode after this or two episodes after this. We are going to cover significant other.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God, I love that play.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, devastation. Devastation. But if there's one thing that they're connected on, it's the relationship between straight women and gay men.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But title of show I was watching, I was like, oh, this is such a healthy friendship.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

It's pure love.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And no condescension, anyway.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Because also, I mean, I don't know if you know this. You're famously younger than I am. We were talking about this before we started recording. Like, some of the content that came out when you were in high school was a little more open and honest and healthy than some of the stuff I got.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And so I'VE often had, like, female friendships where, you know, even, like, the best ones, there's always, like, a little something just because eventually your lives go from parallel to perpendicular. And as gay men, we often have to fight to include ourselves in our friends narratives because we don't fit the norm, unfortunately. Just, like, by existing. But then there are. But then there are also female friendships where, like, even though you think it's a good friendship, you slowly come to realize that, like, you're the handbag to them. Like, you're. You're an accessory. I could go on for years about some people like this where it's just like, they think they're allies and that they're like, your friends, but they're slightly condescending to you.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

The whole.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That you're. You're always cute, you're always precious, you're always. You know, it's. I totally get it.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. One thing that one person said to me, and I wouldn't put. Call this person a friend by any means, but they. I was. It was very clear to me that they said it thinking that they were being, like, just wonderful. And I wanted to slap them through the phone. When they said, like, oh, we could have introduced you some of our lovely gay friends.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I was like, lovely gay friends?

[Matt Koplik]

Our lovely gay friends. I was like, go find the fuck yourself. You. We are not your pet rabbits, bitch.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I just don't know. It's like, if you. If you replace that with any other, like, marginalized community, it sounds wrong, but for some reason, gay feels totally right. I don't know.

[Guest D]

I.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's like we're there for straight women's consumption.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because for most of the 90s, we were like. That was how we were. The way we got. The way we introduced safely into pop culture was sort of as like a Jack or Will or Stanford Blanche. Yeah, of course. Which. And I. And I don't begrudge those moments because they were important moments.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Super important.

[Matt Koplik]

But in the same way that, like, we. I talk about all the time in musical theater when, like, you know, people, like, go back and they will say things that are wrong with the King. And I'm like, you know, like, there are things that don't age well, but, like, Oscar Hammerstein wrote the King and I, hoping other writers would be, like, great, we'll write, like, more shows for that ethnicity and, like, further along that narrative. But, like, no one else picked up the torture. Like, fuck, I guess it's just gonna be my show for the next 30.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Years stuck in time. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

But. So that's sort of what Stanford Blanche is like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Stanford Blanche is like for you. Because I love rewatching. I love rewatching Will and Grace. I love rewatching Sex and the City. And I'm able to, as, you know, a conscious consumer of it, understand that times have changed and understand that.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Now this seems really, really like, oh, my God, how dated is this? But I don't like when people come for both of those shows, like, with a 20, 23 lens, and I'm like, there's. That's a losing game. You know, I'm like. So I'm like, Now I look back on it, understanding. I'm like you. It's your job as a consumer of it to understand context.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And that's why I'm. I, like, I. Seeing. I met Sean Hayes because I had to interview him for the Meet the Nominees, and I. I don't really get starstruck that easily, but with him, I was. Because he was in my living room all the time. My mom. My parents fall asleep to sitcoms, and Will and Grace being one of them. And I really credit him for bringing gayness into my household first, like, in making it, you know, all my family love Sean Hayes. So it was just. I was looking at him being like, oh, my God, you have no idea how important you were to my coming out, like. And that's what he was to me.

[Matt Koplik]

The irony is he's probably like, I absolutely know how important now.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

He's like, I. He's like, of course, like.

[Matt Koplik]

But of course, he's like, I'm sorry, do you think you're the only one who said this to me? I'm sure I can write you the script right here, right now. I'm motherfucking Sean Hayes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm motherfucking Sean Hayes. Tony winner.

[Matt Koplik]

Tony winner. Sean Hayes. Emmy winner. It's Sean Hayes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But, yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

But so I say this only because the title of the show, the Heidi, Susan characters and their friendships with Jeff and Hunter, and I've. I did a little bit of research to, like, kind of figure out some of the genesis of the show and how they all got to know each other, it all kind of comes back to Hunter because Hunter. Hunter met Jeff, I think doing a show at Goodspeed. Hunter met Susan. Oh, no, sorry. No, it all comes back to Jeff. I mean. Yeah, because Jeff met Susan doing something.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Sorry. Heidi doing the. Who's Tommy.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

In Brazil.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

In Brazil.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Which is in the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, it is in the show. And then Susan met Jeff first, and then that's how she got involved with Jeff and Hunter, and that's how they all kind of came to be. But you watch how they interact with each other and like, it is just pure love, friendship. Like four people who speak the same language, who enjoy each other's company, and.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

There'S no same sense of humor.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And like, you'll talk about like, you know, Susan's getting married and. And Jeff and Hunter are going to be her maids of honor. She says it like in her funny Susan way.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

My beautiful maids of honor.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. But she. But you know that there's genuine love and care there.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Of course.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And when shit hits the fan, like, they all throw the shit equally. It's. It's.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's not one of them being. All of them have their issues.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's. It's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And it's. That's why I think it's so. And it earned the nomination for best book of the musical. I think Hunter, and I'm sure a lot of them also, like, Hunter is responsible for like, probably putting pen to paper, but I'm sure, like all of them, you know, it's their voices, but I think it's just so brilliant and nuanced and. And rides this line of being very earnest but also being hilarious, like one of the funniest books ever. And I've sort of base a lot of my sense of humor off that.

[Matt Koplik]

And very self aware. Yeah. I mean, people can say, like, oh, well, how much of a book can there be if they just chronicled what happened? And the truth is that if you actually watch, I mean, not everyone is as fortunate as we are to be in the city to go to Lincoln Center Library to watch it. But if you, like, read the script for the Broadway version and you watch the Vineyard version, and I'm sure it was something similar for the festival.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But the whole structure of, like, we're struggling, we get the success, and then like, we. We cave to the pressure of success. The change, it don't change. Is it like that was there at the Vineyard, but it was about the Off Broadway run.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then they moved. They changed that to Broadway when Broadway became a reality. So clearly, like, there are things in that script that did not actually happen. Of course. And they say that, like when people ask, like, how much of it is true? They're like, enough of it is true that it's about us. But they're like, yeah, no, we dramatize some things because you need to.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because you have to.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a musical.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, if the whole process was smooth and everyone loved each other the entire time, it was, like, great. What a tight. Two paragraphs on kittens. Two paragraphs on kittens, as Susan says. Yeah. So there's stuff in there that definitely didn't happen. That's their own invention. And they talk about how it's all collaborative, but Jeff is the one who had to, as you said, put pen to paper, figure out the structure and what needed to stay and what could go. And it's just. Yeah, it's very smart. We'll talk about, like, I guess, some, like, nitpicky things they have about it, but overall, the product is so effective. Like, when I talk about these things, it's more sort of like. I don't know, it's just. It's critical analysis rather than me being like, here's where the show fails.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

More like, here's a show I love and, like, if I had to, like, talk about things, here are some bumpy stuff.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, I mean, 98% of shows have bumpy stuff.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It would be weird if not. There's, like, four musicals that I think are perfect.

[Guest D]

Yeah?

[Matt Koplik]

What are the ones?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Well, I think Cabaret is a perfect musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Interesting. Well, which version?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

The 98. The version that everyone does now. Yes, exactly. I just think Joe Masteroff's book mixed with the kinder and episode, like, is pretty airtight. Like, not one thing in that show could be removed.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I just think it's perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

I also appreciate in that version, they're like, no, Cliff is gay. He fucks men.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No. Yeah, he gay. You know, which is so necessary. And it may. And I played Cliff in high school, and it was, like, such a good, necessary thing for me to play. I was like, oh, my God, I love this. And it was just. It's fast because you. I have friends that are gay, and then all of a sudden, they have this, like, they meet someone they're having an awakening with. They're like, I picked too soon.

[Matt Koplik]

You know?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, I definitely fall more in the spectrum, and I think that's an amazing role. And I think Cliff is a really unsung hero in musical theater. He's, like, the impetus for the show. He's the reason it happens. Everyone's like, cliff's such a forgettable role. I'm like, because he's the straight man, he's the glue. He's the. But I. But I'm like, he's such a vital part of the show. And I feel like. I love. I always look for the cliff. I'm like, who's playing cliff?

[Matt Koplik]

You know, if it's. If your cliff is bad, the show won't be as sensational as you want it to be.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yes. You're so right. Oh, my gosh. So I think Gypsy's a perfect musical. I think west side Story is a pretty perfect musical. And I think Fiddler on the Roof is a pretty perfect musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Those are. That's a good top four. Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And then there's others that get so close.

[Matt Koplik]

There's that.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm like, oh, my God. But just with those four shows, I'm like, you really. I don't think you can make any sort of cut to make it better.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, there's nothing in Gypsy I'd cut. Although when we did the Gypsy episode, Preston Max Allen noted that there's really nothing in the script that ever gives an indication that Louise has something in her to become Gypsy Rose Lee. Like, sure.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's, like, the actor's job.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, she's like. There's no line in there, like, where, like, Louise makes a crack or something where you go, oh, yeah, look who came in with an opinion. Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, look at that.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, she really doesn't.

[Matt Koplik]

Look who came to play. And I think, like, all you need is one moment, like, one line, and add two.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

When she, like, makes a witty retort.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And you're like, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They try to make the whole, like, I'm a pretty girl mama. That moment. But because of how her strip becomes more about, like, her intellect as well as her beauty, it would be nice to have something like that. But I don't think that makes Gypsy not perfect. It's like, Preston said that I was like, yeah, I think Arthur could have written one line.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, maybe something. I think they really wanted it to be a surprise. They're really like, wow. Really didn't see this.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They really wanted that arc to be in the strip. And it. When you have a good Louise, that strip.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I mean, Laura Benanti, like, yeah. I will never stop thinking about it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I remember when Benanti did it, and, I mean, honestly, it was around the time the title show was popping up, because.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

2008.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep, yep, yep, yep. Because she did it at City center that summer, and I remember when she got cast, everyone was like the. Like, no one thought that that was good casting. And then she did it, pissed all over the stage, literally. And we're like, I don't want another Louise in my life.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

She. I. Oh, my God. Like, I, I get emotional thinking about it. She is just a revelation in that part.

[Matt Koplik]

She is. I remember the way. So Laura is one of those people where, like, she is a stunning human being.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Gorgeous. But, like, she talks about this openly. She, she, she. It took a minute for her to sprout into the Laura Benanti we all know.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Her. Her, like, all of us, she had a childhood and teenagers that were, like, rough and tumble.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And because of that, it's what allows her to be so funny and intelligent. Because when you can't rely on your looks, you have to start relying on other things and, and curating your brain. But so because of that, she is very much a comedic genius. I've. I've always wanted to. She's had a few performances where I, like, want to go on stage and be like, okay, we need to lose this laugh, and we're going to keep. And make that laugh better.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, wow, look at you.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, but it's one of those, like, blessings when you can find. She can find a laugh anywhere.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's. It's a. It's masterful.

[Matt Koplik]

It really is. And it's. It's not a her note. It's me being like, hey, Bart, can I come. Can I come into the room for a second? Hey, Bart. Hey.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Sorry, do you mind.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you mind if I come in here for a bit?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And he wouldn't.

[Matt Koplik]

He wouldn't mind. But in Gypsy, I remember. So the way she does that first strip, and we're not even talking about title show right now. I know.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

But this is. But this is. First of all, we go on tangents on this podcast, Tyler. But also title the show. This is what it is.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

This is what it is.

[Matt Koplik]

Most Louise's. When they do that first strip and they do the My name is Gypsy Rose Lee. What's yours, sir? And it's usually, like, meant to sort of lean into her sexualities, like Krista Moore, Tammy Blanchard. They do like a Sir. And Laura, I remember, made it kind of awkward because she was still finding her way into the sexuality.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, my name is Gypsy Rose Lee. What's yours, sir?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, it's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God, she's great. And her hat bit. What am I going to do when big hats go out?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my.

[Matt Koplik]

She's great. She's great. But this is to say with title. Well, she was on the title of the show. Show.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You're completely right about that.

[Matt Koplik]

She was a Lot of people were. I don't even know how we got.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Here, but are we talking saying that title just like, oh, what show? So few. Like, there's. So few are perfect. In my opinion.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Greatness and perfection are not the same thing.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

There are a lot. Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

There are a lot of great musicals that are not perfect. As we all know, Carousel is my favorite musical. There is one song that I would cut, which is Blow.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

High Blow. I'm kidding. Well, it's not.

[Matt Koplik]

What's Use of Wondering?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Is that really the one you would cut?

[Matt Koplik]

No. Fuck, no.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Wait, what one would you cut?

[Matt Koplik]

I would cut highest judge of all, which they did cut in 94.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

And they didn't cut it in the 2018 revival. I'm like, oh, you're gonna cut half the book scenes, but you're not gonna.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Cut so many book scenes.

[Matt Koplik]

You're not gonna cut this scene. Change number. Like, yeah, seriously.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Highest judge of all. I would maybe agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, actually, back to the title of the show.

[Guest D]

Yes. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So they. So in the song, an original musical.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yes, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

When Hunter is the Blank paper.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Trying to inspire Jeff in the cast recording, they're talking about, like, if you're gonna make it to Broadway, like, you gotta have a star, be a recognizable commodity. And Jeff goes, I think, you know, having good products, we don't want to lower the bar with talentless actors. And she goes, shit. People want to see Paris Hilton in the apple trade.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Who wants to see Paris Hilton in the apple tree?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know a lot of people. But so on Broadway, I think they changed it to Paris Hilton. And Mame, I think.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But Paris Hilton is. Mame is what it is.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But. But at the Vineyard.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, no.

[Matt Koplik]

And I wasn't ready for this because it's a good joke. The. The library recording at the Vineyard, he goes, people want to see Paris Hill and then Sunset Boulevard. And Jeff goes, who wants to see Sunset Boulevard? That's so fucking funny.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Who wants to see Sunset Boulevard?

[Matt Koplik]

Wants to see Sunset Boulevard. The shade.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Oh, I love them so much.

[Matt Koplik]

I do, too. And, you know, I've had this hot take about Sunset Boulevard. I know you know them too. I know a lot of really opinionated, snobby gays.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I know a lot of people that love Sunset Boulevard.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Like, I'm talking people who, you know, they would go. They go see the most recent Fiddler, and they're like, oh, well, Style's vocal placement wasn't what it should Be. And I'm like, like. I'm like, go get by a cactus.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

But they. But they objectively think Sunset Boulevard is a brilliant musical. I'm like, her.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

An her.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

An.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I didn't mean who. I meant her.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, Sunset.

[Matt Koplik]

What is she funny or something?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Just. I have a. I'm trying to think that score in terms of where it lies in the Angel Lloyd Webber canon is probably relatively high up for me.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, there's some gorgeous music in there and. As if we never said goodbye for some reason. Defies logic. It's more.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That song is good.

[Matt Koplik]

It is good. Well, it also, like, it's one look when you have a diva doing it and she comes downstage.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's more that.

[Matt Koplik]

That.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's what the show does so beautifully is like, if you put the right person in this part, all of a sudden the show sings.

[Matt Koplik]

And if you don't make her a gargoyle like they usually do. I'm sorry.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Make her a gargoyle. That is so rich. Well, Stephanie just did it.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they are from gargoyle. Stephanie J. Block is like, I'm sorry, I'm a sultry 50 something. I still fuck. I don't need to be a gargoyle. It's like, yes, you know, you're correct.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

In the 90s, Trevor Nunn was like, so Norm was 51. So she's got no hair and she wears wigs and she's got makeup like a kabuki actress.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

And Andrew Lloyd Web, he who loves women is like. But of course, he goes, and Betty Schaefer, she's under 30 and she's thin and a virgin. Because that's what happens with women we love.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

They don't fuck yet.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Angela de Weber found dead.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, you know my hot take about Phantom, right? About what Phantom of the Opera is really about.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

What do you want?

[Matt Koplik]

It's about a horny incel. Who makes it a point to gaslight and kidnap the only virgin left in Paris.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, no, no, that's like. Is what it's about.

[Matt Koplik]

That's all what it's about.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's on. It's on license. It's on Concord Theatrical. That's like. That's what the.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's. It's their tagline.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's the tagline.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's what's on main.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's like, Carlotta.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I literally just re. Saw Phantom, of course, right before it closed. It's Such a wild experience like witnessing that show again.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, I enjoy the show, and I will say the original production is as good as it's gonna get.

[Guest D]

But.

[Matt Koplik]

And I've talked about this before, like, Hal Prince knew. Cut. As many applause breaks as possible. Because the moment you applaud, it's a moment to think about what you've just seen. And if you think about what you've.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Just seen, there really aren't a lot of.

[Matt Koplik]

To applause. And if you think about anything you've just seen in Phantom, you go, wait a second. What's this about?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

What's going on here? But the fact that it lasted as long as it did, I mean, I give Hal so much credit for that.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Well, I guess America just really loves to see women with daddy issues fall into traps.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But I guess the West End, too, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, the West End's just like, who's a woman? Ever since Jane Austen died, we haven't thought about women as people.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

What? I don't know.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Is that a direct quote? No, no. Where that is a quote that's gonna go on.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, it's also not true. I just said words. Who wants to see Sunset Boulevard?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, what a great. Who wants to see something that is so. That. That statement is so, like, charged.

[Matt Koplik]

It really is. Well, there. There are moments in this. Austin died ever since Jane Austen died. The British are like, what's a woman? But so. No, but it's. It's that kind of. I would say it's that kind of silly pointedness that I think the title of the show does really well.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's so true.

[Matt Koplik]

Also on that note, let's take a break.

[Billy]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Guest D]

How do you mean?

[Billy]

You're the top.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Billy]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread of the.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And we're back.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I forget that I have to do ad breaks.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, you do have to ad breaks.

[Matt Koplik]

She's on the network. She's. She's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, I love. And I love the network.

[Matt Koplik]

You're on Broadway podcast. Bpm, baby.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Have you been on BPM before?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

What do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

Like, have you been on a podcast?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I don't know if I have before, but I just am a.

[Guest D]

You know.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so you've done putting it together. You've now done this. What are the podcasts? Oh, have I. Am I not special?

[Guest D]

No.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, you're not? No, not at all. Oh, was that. I'm so sorry. You're on it all by myself. So, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

We were talking about sort of the silliness, reverence that title show has for theater, which I love because it's. It comes from a place of two men who adore Broadway so much.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

To the point that they're making Henry Sweet Henry jokes and Doll's life and. What? Maybe. Yes, please. Thank you.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, I'm okay. I've never drink into Celsius. I'm too scared. I'm much.

[Matt Koplik]

Is there. Is there cocaine in Celsius or something?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, a little bit of it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the third ingredient after tangerines.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Are you drinking a tangerine one? No, it's pineapple for the listeners.

[Matt Koplik]

A pineapple. Look out, boys. Pineapple. Follow me. I was gonna make a sex joke. And you went back to Broadway.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I went back, right back. Because I always find my way back to then.

[Matt Koplik]

So what? Okay. We could go on and on. There's no. There's no structure on this podcast, nor is. And there is a structure entitled the show. But also, I think the lack of structure is also its structure. What is a song entitled A Show that if you. If someone was like, I don't know if I'll like it. How do I get into this? What would be the first song you would play for them?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Well.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, that. The answer can go so many ways. I would say. Okay, I would probably say nine people's favorite thing. Just because, like, it features all four of them. It's so much the conceit of the show and like something I live by. So that is sort of, you know, that's a really. I think a jumping off point. I think a way back to Men does the same thing, but like, Dive Empire Die is like. I don't know, the. It's a little bit. It feels like the comedic center of the show and establishes tone so much. And again, that balance that really. I feel like only those four can do what they do. And in balancing, like, sharp comedy and wit with so much heart. And it never feels sarcastic.

[Matt Koplik]

No. When they get to earnestness, they are very good about.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

They can sit in it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Have you seen their. The bcefa.

[Matt Koplik]

My first. My first time.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

My first time a genius.

[Matt Koplik]

Gorgeous.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That is one of the best pieces of theater out and no one knows what it is. I think it's the most genius for the listeners at home. Please look it up on YouTube. It's the four of them opened Gypsy of the Year, which I know that, like, we don't say that anymore. I don't know what it's.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know what we call it.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Anymore, but I apologize for. I should have.

[Matt Koplik]

But context, Context, context. It used to be called.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's in the, it's in. It's in the title of the show. But it. So the four of them come out and they talk about their first time seeing a Broadway show. And so Susan's is Angels in America, which isn't actually true, but it was like her second. But whatever. And then, and then Jeff's was Annie. And then so they talk about how, you know, seeing a Broadway show for the first time and the way they balance like Annie and Angels in America and like weave them together is so genius.

[Matt Koplik]

There's so.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't want to give too much away, but this was something that I forgot about and I died watching it again is they have Susan and Hunter doing their narrating their stories and then Jeff and Heidi kind of give historical context and they'll sing little bits sort of to weave throughout. And when they start talking about the show, they're like, oh, all the rich characters. And Jeff will list all of the angels characters and Heidi lists all the Annie characters and they go back and back. So she's like the evil Ms. Hannigan, the evil Roy Cohn, so. And so Esther Rose Rosenberg, the orphan Pepper. And then Jeff goes a leather daddy who wants to bareback Joe Mantello in Central Park.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Molly. Oh my God. It's so.

[Matt Koplik]

It's I.

[Guest D]

You.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's required. It's required viewing for those of you listening to this. But I love that where we're. We. As soon as we start getting into the show, we like completely dodge it. We like, we can't get into the actual show.

[Guest D]

Well.

[Matt Koplik]

So I do want to say I'm glad you said die, vampire, die, because that would probably be the song that I would introduce people to because it is very funny and it's amazing and has a lot of the sort of pushing the boundaries, humor and language that the show does and, and, and explains why it kind of goes where it goes.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because the whole point of a vampire is the doubts that live in your head. Right. Or like the, or the, or the critics who live around you. And it does tie into nine people's favorite thing, which I also want to talk about because I, I love that song. I love its message and it's not the song's fault, but it has become a bit of a double edged sword to some creatives.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh. That like take the message too seriously.

[Matt Koplik]

Or kind of where it's like, I won't listen to people who give me because I'd rather be nine people say what it's like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You definitely have to ride the line.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because open to criticism.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And the whole point of the title of the show is like, it is a collaboration of the four of them. And it's not just like one person's vision. Yeah. So it's more about like, if you create something that you're proud of and, you know, you really work hard to make it palatable, but also what you want it to be. And it ends up not being a ten year run, but like the nine people who know it love it dearly. That's great. As opposed to someone who's like, I have a vision and I don't care what anyone says like that, stick to it.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a difference between ego and passion.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oof.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And that's the.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's. You just have to again, be like a conscious consumer of nine people's favorite things. Be like, don't. You can't take that. You have to take it with a grain of salt.

[Billy]

Those nine people will tell nine people. Then we'll have 18 people loving the show. Then 18 people could grow into 525,600 people all loving our show. And maybe someday, if we're lucky enough.

[Matt Koplik]

We'Ll all be in a studio recording the show.

[Billy]

And 10 years from now, when we play the cast album, this track on the CD will remind us why we'd rather be.

[Matt Koplik]

But so with Die Vampire Die. Yes. In the context of the show. So again, like the whole. The first half of the show as it's in its final form, as it is now is, leads up to them submitting to the festival. That's like I would say.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The first half is the having the idea and then the creating of it.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the second half is it goes to the festival, it goes to Off Broadway and then them including the title of show. Show. But as they're getting towards the final point of writing it, there's a. They do this dream sequence that kind of comes out of nowhere.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

The flying sequence.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the flying sequence with the British accents. And they finish and they're like, why is this here? And Hunter's like, I don't know. He's like, I had this idea at three in the morning. He's like, I don't know what to write. He's like, I'm trying to create some whimsy like, he's like, we have all these, you know, references to bagels and yachts, monkey and playbills. He's like, it might be too niche. And Susan comes down, she goes, die vampire.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And she talks about how the vampires are all forms of critics or self doubt that you have or some people might inflict on you and that will impede your ability to create. And she lists them as, they sort of sing about them. And it's funny for the first like 80% of the song.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yes, exactly. We have the air freshener vampire.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the air freshener vampire. Your grandma and her fat old fucking face. She doesn't want you to. She doesn't want you to speak about bad language, blood or blowjobs.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But you'll have two tight paragraphs on kittens that your grandma will be so proud of.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

The first one is the pygmy vampire.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Pygmy vampire swarm around your head like gnats and say things like, your teeth need whitening.

[Matt Koplik]

You went to state school. I love the way that Heidi said.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You went to state school, especially considering she went to Duke, like in real life.

[Matt Koplik]

I also love that the show gives all four of them opportunities to be weird and funny. But I digress. And it's. And we have all these, you know, moments. And then we get to the serious.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Moment, which is the vampire of despair.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Wake you up at one in the morning and you know, say to yourself, who do you think you're kidding? Yeah, you're an idiot.

[Guest D]

Yeah, you'll never be good.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No matter how hard you try.

[Matt Koplik]

You'll never be good enough. Yeah. And Susan says, very rightfully, like, if someone came up to me on the subway, I'd think they were mentally ill. Asshole. She goes, but if it's my vampire, it's the voice of reason, which, God.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Damn, I mean, it's the crux of any creative ever. And it's, it's, it's so distilled in. Die, vampire, die. And some. And that's what they're so good at is disguising something as comedy and then immediately just like getting you suddenly with, yeah, oh my God, this is so profound. And then you sit in it for a second, like two seconds, and then it's.

[Billy]

You have a story to tell. Pull your novel out of that sock drawer. You have a painting to paint. You best paint it. And then pay some.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

They allow you to live in it for just long enough that it doesn't become preachy. But it's just like, here's A way to look at it that. Because if you look at yourself, doubt and everything, like as a physical form, like as a vampire, you can start defeating it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like you can kill a vampire, but if. When it's this amorphous thing that is all consuming, that's when it gets paralyzing. But I think that's what they're. The image of a vampire just hit the microphone is so. Is why it's so effective.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's physical and you see it. I. I named my depression Debbie.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yes, Debbie.

[Matt Koplik]

Anytime Debbie comes to play, I'm like, fuck off, Debbie.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like Debbie's here and she might not leave.

[Matt Koplik]

She has her, she has her peace. She really wants to say it, but it's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But that's.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, Debbie is. Is a vampire as well.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I mean, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the idea of a vampire that I love. It's like, just because it's in your head doesn't mean it's true.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a difference between, you know, your, your thoughts and what the reality of the situation is. And, and it happens to all of us. Whether you're creative, whether you're just a regular non creative person. Not that, you know. You know what I mean? If you're a creative person or not creative person, you have a vampire, and that vampire will be the one that'll like, live in your head at some point and just make you go, you're not good enough. You'll never amount to anything. You don't have friends.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You're.

[Matt Koplik]

You're whatever. Like no one will ever love you. Like, shit like that. That we don't love to think, acknowledge that those thoughts exist. We always wanted to be like, you know, it's peace and happiness.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The community is so supportive and it is, but they exist. And it's why it's always important to also have friends and collaborators and things like that to hold you accountable as well as hold you up. Which is why when Jeff comes in with that, you have a story to tell, it always. Like, I got very moved at the library watching it again because it's, it's so amazing. Yeah. Because it's just like. Yeah, we do have stories to tell. And just because the vampires exist doesn't mean you can't kill them. And they will show up again as the monsters always come out from under the bed. But, like, you killed it once, you can kill it again.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, it's phenomenal.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the harmonies are nice and tight.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Well, that's partly why I just love their mute and why I love both the title of show and then their following show, which is Now Hear this, which also had a run at the Vineyard. They know how to write for their voices so well. And like Jeff's. Jeff is all about a really good four part harmony. And I just love it. It's so satisfying. And all of their voices, like the way they meld together, they now have this like blend and it's really, really, really satisfying to listen to.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that is one of the reasons that Heidi does the show at the beginning she talks about, because when we establish all the characters, Heidi is considered the only one who's like, relatively successful as an actress.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, yeah. She's in the Little Mermaid at the time.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

She gets cast in it during the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, because that's what happened in life was they did the show at the Vineyard and then Mermaid happened in between Vineyard and Broadway.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's what it is. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And when it was at the Vineyard, what it was, the off Broadway version was they were developing it for Off Broadway after the festival and it was taking too long and she got offered a lead at a good speed musical and so she might take that instead. And that. So that thing goes away and becomes Mermaid. Yeah. Which in real life was never really a problem because title show wasn't going to Broadway, like in five seconds was.

[Guest D]

Gonna take a minute.

[Matt Koplik]

And once it did, Disney let her out of her contract to do it. And then when it closed, she was.

[Guest D]

Able to go back.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, like, that's one of those things. It's like the real story is actually so drama free that it couldn't ever be in the show.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Exactly. But, you know, it's like, oh, let's just like see, sprinkle a little spice on here.

[Matt Koplik]

And you. And you just know that when it happened, Hunter's like, oh, my God, we have something. We can like, put that.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, this is a source of contention for us.

[Guest D]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

We can make it that. But yeah, you know, she's working, she's auditioning. Like when we meet her, she's just come from a callback and she doesn't book it because she doesn't fit the costume for Mamma Mia. And when Jeff is talking to her during the creative process before they submit it to the festival, he's like, you know, thank you so much for doing this. Like, you, you've done so much Broadway. And I think in the script she says, like, I've done two shows. He goes, that's two more than any of us.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Two more than any of us.

[Matt Koplik]

And what she says is like, I love this. You know, I'm always having to fit someone else's mold. And this time, I get to be the mold.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Not the smelly mold.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the mold mold. And she repeats it during the photo shoot. I'm the mold.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm the mold.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's a line that's kind of sticks with you if you are an actor or a writer or, like, if you're an actor who's becoming a writer because you want to create stuff for yourself, because you feel like you're not being properly represented by anyone else's writing.

[Guest D]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, is that why I got into writing? No, it's not. I got into writing because I did an off Broadway play at the St. Clement's Theater called Daddy Issues. And I said to myself, there's got to be better stuff than this.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh. Daddy Issues found dead. Found dead.

[Matt Koplik]

Angela Weber and Daddy Issues found dead.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

And all British in this episode. And all British people.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Help.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, no. But, yeah, you're totally right.

[Guest D]

It's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's partly why I started doing the content creation of it all. You know, I was like, this is a pandemic. I knew there wasn't going to be anything for me, so I was like, may as well start writing for me. And haven't really stopped.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And we've all just been waiting for the day that you do.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Waiting for the day that you do. We're so sick of you. God.

[Matt Koplik]

Chandler, when will you go away?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You go away for a second.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I've actually. You are someone who pops up a lot in my feed. And what I love about it is that it's always new shit.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's never like, thank you. Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't say it was all good.

[Guest D]

No. Yeah, I know.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, but I'll take new. I'll take it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's all new. No, it's random videos or photo shoots or you on the red carpet. I'm like. I'm like, I love the variety. We want to keep variety.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's like a little charcoot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I feel like Instagram should be one of two things. It should either be a scrapbook, an honest scrapbook, or it should be a platform for content creation. And if it's. And if it's the latter, then you have to keep things spicy.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Keep things spicy. But it's tough. I mean, after over three years of doing this, like, I'm like, how the am I Gonna come up with another idea, you know, but it's. That's sort of one of my vampires is like, you, the Wells Dry bitch. You know, that kind of thing. And then just trusting that it's not.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, it's not. And. And I think the other vampire. And. And I've talked about this as well. Audra mentions this in Nothing like a day. I'm like waking up every day and going, is today the day that everyone decides I'm a fraud and it's over and it's done.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, yeah.

[Guest D]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's like, no. And the truth is that if people found you and liked you there, there's something about you and what you create in your voice that people are gonna keep coming back towards.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Thank you. And I have to thank you for this.

[Matt Koplik]

But not just you, but, like, all of us. Yeah, the you. The title of shows is.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I say this. I say this to all the listeners who are. Who want to make something, and they think maybe they're not good enough or they're not famous enough, they're not whatever enough. And it's like, just start by creating something. Maybe your first thing will be bad. Yeah, I mean, you know, everyone has that mulligan.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

It's one thing I love about the Blank Check podcast where they cover movie directors a lot of times, like these directors, their first, you know, movie or two suck.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

They're bad because you have to be. I mean, but now, I mean, it was so much easier to be bad back then.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But now, just like everything you make is in perpetuity, and that is scary and stressful. I understand that. But every single one of your. The people you admire started from somewhere, and it's so easy to forget that. But I mean, I don't. I just.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's my room. But that's. Yeah. But that's the beauty of Tick Tock and Instagram and all that stuff is you. That can be. If you. If you don't have the opportunities to try and fail on Broadway as many times as maybe the greats did back in the 40s and 50s. You do have Instagram and TikTok for that purpose, right?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And if there's something that title show taught us is, you know, take every opportunity you have and just fucking throw the spaghetti at the wall. And if one noodle sticks come back for the next one and.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Noodle sticks.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

And that is ultimately what title of show show was about was. And you See this in the Broadway incarnation of title of show, which is that, you know, they do the festival, they do off Broadway, which I think there was like a two year period in between those.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It was pretty significant because the time.

[Matt Koplik]

The festival was 04, I want to.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Say it was the 04 festival.

[Matt Koplik]

No, wait.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Right. Isn't that when it started?

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, I'm going to take that back.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

06 Festival.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, six.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry. So actually, no, it was a pretty quick turnaround because. And the only reason I know this is because they submitted to the festival. The festival. The King's Festival.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

The King's Festival, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they do. I think it got accepted. No, it was 04.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It was 04.

[Matt Koplik]

It was 04 the summer of 2004.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because it was the first year of the festival.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And what happened was. So I guess Charlie Chaperone was in LA that summer, maybe because Heidi was not the first person who did it, or at least she did it at New York Musical Theater Festival. But what happened was, is they did sort of like a. Like a lab of it, I guess, at Manhattan Theater Source, which was produced by Laura Camion, who, fun fact, has a podcast now with Susan Blackwell called the Spark File.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's very. I love the podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

It's really good. And Susan just has the most soothing voice.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

She's the easiest person to listen to, I think, ever. Same with Lord Camion, actually. They both have incredible voices. And it's all about your Spark file is like what you would kind of stow things that inspire you. So then when you feel sort of uninspired, you can go into your Spark File and read articles, watch, you know, content, whatever that brings you, you know, that sparks you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but so they did sort of like a lab of it. Three performances of title the show that summer before it performed at the festival. And it was an actress by the name of Stacia Fernandez or Stacia Fernandez, I don't know. And she ended up being Beth Leavel's understudy in Drowsy Chaperone. Oh my God. And I believe did that in LA first. And that's when Heidi swooped in.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I don't know if, like, I would love to sit down with those four and figure that out because it feels so specific to Heidi. And the turnover from the musical from Manhattan Theater Source to the Musical Theater Festival is so short that it's not like they rewrote the whole show for Heidi in a month.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I wonder if Heidi was unavailable for the three performances and they sort of Tweaked it for Stacia.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I wonder. Oh, my God. It is a dream of mine to sit them. At some point in my life, sit them down, four of them, and do sort of a side by side with Susan Blackwell. Like, we're all just like drinking and talking and doing all of that.

[Matt Koplik]

I think this is the moment where you say into the mic that this is your official invitation to the four of the.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

This is my official invitation to. To Jeff Bowen, Hunter Bell, Susan Blackwell and Heidi Blickenstaff. And let's throw Larry in there. Yeah, I'm like, I would. I. And Michael Baress. I would. I would love to sit down now that it's been, what, 15 years?

[Matt Koplik]

I guess so.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

To just talk about. Because I know there are people, so many people in the world. I mean, after seeing that 10 year reunion concert for the Actors Fund, for the Entertainment Fund, now I. It was like. It was a rock concert. It was so there. This show touches so many people and I know there's a lot of content. I think they maybe feel like, oh, my God, there's so much content already with the title Show. Show, whatever. I'm like, no, because we don't know now they're all, you know, all their careers are doing other. They're doing other things. I want to know, like, how often do you think about this show? Like, how much do you. I just. I have a lot of questions for them. So this is my official invitation.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I would like to be in the room at the very least, because you said throw in Michael Buress and I would love to have Michael Burress thrown into me.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

He was definitely a sexual awakening of mine.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Michael is so. I mean, Jeff and Michael are a power couple. No one talks about it.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, no, they're very quiet about it. They're super quiet. I didn't know that they were together until the closing performance of title show on Broadway. Got it. Because when the show wrapped up. And talk about a rock concert. That final performance was a rock.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I mean, I bet when they post the closing notice, I bet was.

[Matt Koplik]

It was. Yeah, it was. It was one. It's one of those final. I've been to only two closing performances on Broadway. Great Gardens and title the show. Oh, my God, I know.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

The dynamic duo.

[Matt Koplik]

Come on, I'm a fag.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

But they were very respectful rock concerts because when. When there was time for applause, everyone went insane, of course. But it wasn't like, you know, when Lea Michele's in Funny Girl, and everyone's screaming.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, yeah, you can't hear anything.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, they. Everyone's like, no, I want to hear it all. Oh, of course.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Especially considering it's a keyboard.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. You got to hear it.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You can easily drown out the show when.

[Matt Koplik]

When the show begins, because it begins with Jeff and Hunter facing front in the darkness. And so everyone's. The applause was such that, like, it took a minute before they could begin, of course. And then Heidi and Susan came on for the. So we'll get it on.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They got applause, but it was like a very loud. Yeah, exactly.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Friends, you just want to hear everything.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Susan's dive vampire got a big round of applause. And then Jeff started. Everyone was very calm for most of the final performance until nine people's favorite things. Because then Jeff started to do the I'd rather be nine peoples, and he started to cry, and he had to, like, stop himself, but the entire audience, like, gave him a little whoop of, like, you can do it.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So then that number. The show ends. It's all great. And then Michael Everest comes on to talk about it. He says, you know, this experience was so great, blah, blah, blah. And, like, to do. To work on this show I love so much and, you know, spend every day with my boyfriend. And everyone kind of chuckles because we all know, but no one's saying it. And then Jeff just points at himself and mouth, I'm his boyfriend. And then. And then they kiss. And we were like, yes, they're kissing. But Michael Baress and Kiss Me, Kate was a very big sexual moment for me.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, sure. Like, by all means.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Such a talented performer as well as a director.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, he doesn't do that much directing, I don't think anymore.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I don't know. I mean, I just.

[Matt Koplik]

He should.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I consider now hear this. And title show, like, so brilliantly directed, but absolutely.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So I'm like, you're a director. I don't know if he does.

[Matt Koplik]

He should. He should. Because also, I'll say his choreography for title of the show is great.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's so, like, pedestrian meets, like.

[Matt Koplik]

But.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But it's so effective.

[Matt Koplik]

It's very clean.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's the cleanest thing ever.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's. It's more about that, like. And there's. There's no frill, but it's very.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Tight.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't. Okay. I have been very open about some of the choreography Broadway in the past, and I don't have to go into specifics for this episode. If you want to hear specifics, listen to past episodes. But I have an issue with a lot of modern day Broadway choreography where it does rely on tricks and flips. It's a lot of.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's like you're paying for the ticket you better get, you know, throwing it all out.

[Matt Koplik]

Fire. Exactly.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's very hot feet.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I'm like. But where's sort of the precision and where's the build and the inventiveness and Michael's choreography and title of show? Like, there's no splits or high kicks. No, but it's impressive because it's very precise. It's very story. Character based. And also very inventive and clever and funny.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And just works so well. And I mean, his fucking staging of September Song, AKA the Festival medley, is incredible. Including what I'm pretty sure is a reference to Dreamgirls, when Susan and Heidi are sitting at their chairs and it's like a dressing table backstage as Hunter and Jeff are doing. Yeah, it's. I'm. I don't. I don't want to get too in the weeds because I could talk about all the Susan Blackwell line deliveries from the cast album in the show in general.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Can't you see that I'm dying?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But also when she was like, she goes, I like doing the show. I like doing the show. It balances out my day job, which is killing me softly. She's killing me softly.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I wrote this song sitting at my desk today. I'd like to sing it for you now for you now.

[Billy]

Can't you see that I'm dying inside? Can't you see that I'm dying inside? If you shine a flashlight in my butt, you'd see I'm dying inside.

[Matt Koplik]

When they do that, find all the inside inside.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they are. Jeff and Hunter turn around and grab the chairs, and Heidi and Susan both reach their arms out in the final inside as the chairs pull back. Oh, that's easy. I'm like, that's center for Holiday and Dream Girls.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's. It's. But it's so fucking quick.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But that. That's because you take the. The actual meat of the show, like the. The score in the book, and then you have someone like Michael who understands it on such, like, a profound level that visually all he does is enhance it and make sure that it all is tight. Like the visual language of the show because it's so sparse. Had to be that and Michael completely delivered. And I'm just, like, so impressed by the show. Because it easily could not have been that. But it was so genius to be able to be, you know, as amazing as it was with as little. Like, with limitation comes creativity.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And oh, my God, did they have limits.

[Matt Koplik]

We've talked about all the time on this podcast. When creatives have talked about this, you know, with TV and film or whatever, when they have boundaries, you actually get more creative. Because when. When the whole world is your resource, it's like you get crippled.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You just go, crap it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But I think that would be my ultimate. My two things I would say to people who are doing a production to title a show A is pacing. Keep it moving.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Please don't over emote or over exaggerate the comedy. Like, the comedy lives in just how natural everybody is. If you watch a video of the original four, no one is pushing.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

They're just not a single. They're completely living in it.

[Matt Koplik]

Especially because it's so much of it is just silly humor that you just live in it. And then also, like, choreography wise, don't be afraid to, like, make it show busy.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, have fun with. With imagery. I mean, some of the choreography has nothing to do with four people in a room with chairs. It's just like full blown musical theater.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Iconography. Think of, you know, 1960s tight choreography for Die Vampire, Die. You know, Heidi, Jeff and Hunter are singing backup, so they're being the dream acts.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It sings back up and, like, it's very controlled.

[Matt Koplik]

Je sui whore.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Just sweet.

[Matt Koplik]

There's also. There's a little bit of French in this show. Just all throughout.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Soissons.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Hey, soissons. I also love.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I love the way she seems. Je ne sais quoi. She seems so unrelain. I feel so bourgeois. That's just one. Are we gonna just. It's just. It's just so. I think. I think what we need to do.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

What do we need to do?

[Matt Koplik]

We have to do two productions. The title of the show two. One where we do the True West. John C. Reilly, Philip Flip Flop as Hunter.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So much more of a Jeff than I am a Hunter.

[Matt Koplik]

And see, I think. I think I have the energy of a hunter, but I also just. I would prefer to sing Jeff because it's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because it's lower.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, but I can sing Hunter. I just like. I'm like, okay, I have to pull the Lea Michele. I'm not drinking alcohol.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Precisely.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But then we have to then do a second production where we inverse the genders and we have our female friends play Jeff and Hunter. I mean, who plays Susan and Heidi? And we'll flip flop that as well.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I really do. A lot of people are like, oh, what shows do you really want revived? And my answers to those questions for the longest time were Merrily We Roll along and Parade and now like both of them are happening. So I'm like, I have to change my answer. But title of show is one of them because I really think that the four of them would be down not to maybe be in it and then do it again, but to write a version of it that is also self aware. And the fact that it's like us playing like people, that kind of thing. And I'm just, I would be dying to do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Limited if, like, even if encores did title of show. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, put me in coach. I want to be Jeff so badly.

[Matt Koplik]

Totally. I think that'll be interesting to ask Hunter and Jeff to come back to the material and see if they can tweak it in ways where it's because they mentioned in the show, what do we do when people play us like, and then you.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Or it's like, do we change our names? Like eventually someone's going to play us or like understudies or anything like that. And they have a whole episode about that in the title of the show. Show, yes. Which is iconic. But I wonder if there's like in the way that Michael Bennett, when he was going to make A Chorus Line a movie.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

What he was going to do is essentially became every little step which was like, what if I make a movie about people making a movie of A Chorus Line.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I wonder if Jeff and Hunter would come back to title the show and go, okay, let's tweak this and make it about people putting on a production to title Show.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So it's like maybe they would, you.

[Matt Koplik]

Know, so it's like 85% the original material with little pieces, with little bits.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Of like all of a sudden we're doing this in 2023. It's not 2008, you know, that kind of thing.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're actors who are not Hunter, Jeff, Heidi and Susan having to be Hunter, Jeff, Heidi and Susan.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I think it's really inside baseball, which is why I think like, if it's a really, really limited, like an encore run of it where the people in that audience, a lot of them are going to know, you know, what's going on. I think it would be Incredibly, like, profound. Yeah, I want to do it so bad.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, that's something that they were dinged for originally when it was moving to Broadway. I don't know if you, like, read any of the reviews at the time.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I. I'm sure I did. In high school when I was researching.

[Matt Koplik]

They. They were pretty well received at the Vineyard.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And then they moved to Broadway and I remember, like, the New York Times was really still the only paper that really loved it. And even then, Charles Usherwood was like, I don't know. That whole third act where they're like, what does fame mean? What's success mean? He's like, I don't like that part. I'm like, okay, Queen, work it, Queen. But like, the Post gave them one star and they're like, oh, my God. This like circle jerk of a musical where, like, they're basically just entertaining themselves. And there were a lot of people on the web who felt that way. Where it's like, this show isn't really a show because it's just four people who make each other laugh. I'm like, but that's when niche is right.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's such a lazy critique of the show. Yeah, you don't need to like the show. But saying something like that feel. I'm like, oh, great. You know, it's a. You're not adding anything to the conversation.

[Matt Koplik]

No, because it is a musical.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

There's original. There's an original score and it's a. It's. And it's. They're acting like it's the first meta thing ever. And I'm like, they didn't invent meta theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, you know, it is. It is a very self aware musical. Listen, if you go into like the, the nitpicks, like, are there like maybe one or two fourth wall breaks that I would cut myself? Like, yes, because. But that's also because I think fourth wall breaks in general are more of a spice than an ingredient. Show like you. I'm like, you get two, maybe three if you're lucky. If it's a four act musical, you get three. And like every now and then I'm like, oh, we don't need. I mean, we don't. I always love an into the woods reference. I'm like, do we need six? We could probably cut it down to five.

[Guest D]

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because they really were. They're like, we don't want to do a reference. They don't want to pander into a reference to Les Mis or Phantom of the Opera. So what's funny is that into the Woods, I think would, if they were writing it now, would be one of those musicals.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But I think maybe at the time it wasn't. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Into the woods was still very much like the Holy Grail for theater kids.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But it wasn't like it didn't breach quite yet, like the zeitgeist in general. But now there's the movie. There's this really successful revival.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. People know it far more now, early. Such say. The normies know it.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

The normies know it.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But like, we have the. We have the festival, the King's Festival. And then we have the I need your shoe.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And then I need your shoe.

[Matt Koplik]

And then also when they're about to submit it and they're playing the famous into the woods court, say that of course you were meant to have children. Yep.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Genius.

[Matt Koplik]

I just think the whole thing came from Susan Blackwell being like, I'll never get to play the baker's wife on Broadway. Can you give me two lines?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Give me two. Give me. Give me some. Into the woods.

[Matt Koplik]

Give me some Gleeson.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Give me some Gleeson. I mean, they're all friends, you know, they love Joanna Gleason.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and that's sort of what I love about the song part of it all is they talk about how they want to be in the community. Community. Because, like, it's. I think, one of those things that is really tricky to gauge with Broadway. And I'm sure you know this as well. You're. I would say we're both relatively in the sausage now of the Broadway community. You definitely more than me, but. But, like, we. We've seen some. We've seen some. We know some people. We've met some people. And for everything that makes us go like, oh, my God, it's just like I dreamed. There's something where you're like, huh, not exactly how I imagine. We don't have to go into deets, but it's like every industry that exists. Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You, like, you're all of a sudden in the circle and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think the only way to really survive it is to, like, Heidi, remind yourself of way back to then, but also, like, not take yourself and it so seriously of, like.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, sometimes it's ridiculous and weird and, like, sometimes toxic, but then also it can be amazing. And that's what I love about the energy of Jeff and Hunter. I was about to say Jeff and Bowen. Jeff and Bowen. Oh, my gosh no. Of Jeff and Hunter as they wrote. It is. It's very. Like, they love Broadway while also recognizing all the craziness about it is my content.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That is literally my content.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's the exact same conceit. I love it so much that I'm able to see the weird, strange, almost embarrassing parts of what we do, and I'm able to poke fun of them because it comes from a place of pure, 100% love. And that's exactly what they do.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not. It's not punching down. It's a funhouse mirror.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Aren't you so glad we met today?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So glad.

[Matt Koplik]

I get you, baby.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I get you.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, I mean, when they sing part of it all or, like, they make jokes about Betty Buckley being a hot box of crazy or the DE.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Stout getting hit by hot dog Heart.

[Matt Koplik]

Z Hody and Whorehouse goes public.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, I'm simply so sorry. I keep getting nominated for musicals that nobody likes. This Footloose. Whatever.

[Billy]

Everybody cut.

[Matt Koplik]

Everybody cut. I don't know who's speaking out of school. Who fucking cares? So I saw Dehoti do Cinderella at Papermill.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Nice. Wasn't that kind of recently?

[Matt Koplik]

It was like, four years ago. Yeah, it was. It was right before COVID I was. I was trying to date somebody in the cast. Well, yeah, that's the best way I can describe it. We were like. We were kind of starting today, but he wouldn't go further. But he's like. He's like, I'll absolutely get you a comp to the show I'm in. And, like, you can ride in the van with us back.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, that's nice.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Transit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I was just there yesterday seeing Rent.

[Matt Koplik]

But booking a tour afterwards and not telling me and then just fully ghosting off to Canada is not as nice, but we don't have to go there. Point is, we're in the van he's driving, so I can't really talk to him driving the van.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, so that's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, they don't have, like, drivers or paper mill.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, you. I didn't realize that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you get. And you get paid extra if you're a van.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, I'll totally drive the van.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Guest D]

That's.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how they get you to do it. They're like, you get an extra hundred bucks. So he. He did it. I was like, okay, cool. Like, that makes sense. But, like, I'll. I guess I'll Just sit here and talk to D. Hody.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was lovely.

[Guest D]

I.

[Matt Koplik]

We start talking and, like, oh, you know, my dad is a huge Folly's nerd. And, like, we love you in that cast recording. Thank you so much. And, like, I'm kind of going down the list. I'm like, well, we're after Folly. She's like, oh, my God, such a blast. And. And. And I'm like. I'm like, bright star. She's like, oh, you know, easy. And. But then I go. And g. I saw. I was like, an opening night of Gigi. And she goes, those are some beautiful gowns.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. I'm also a Folly super freak.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course. Yeah, of course. That's what you're on this podcast for a reason.

[Guest D]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, fine. Oh, yeah. But, you know when they do Part of It all, and it's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You know that song. I was. I'm doing a solo show next summer, and I'm not next summer as in next month. This summer, in less than a month. And I am including. I was like, I really want to include a song. We're gonna do Two Nobodies. But I. But part of it all, like, speaks to me more.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because it's, like, part of Lunch with Bernadette. Part of it's like, all of that is so. Was so me in high school, and now I sort of feel. Feel a little bit like a part of it all. And it's really profound listening that song now because it captures so accurately what I was feeling in high school and college. Like, I just wanted to be a part of this community and. But Two Nobodies is a little bit more fun to listen to.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So I was like, okay, yeah, part of it All.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, the. The line. All our gay skills filling playbills.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

All our gay skills filling Playbills. Genius.

[Matt Koplik]

Genius lyric. Jeff has some really good lyrics in the show.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I mean, he's not messing around. Like, he is not.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, I have seen Michael Buress naked on multiple occasions.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Monster, monster to my right. No, but seriously, like, in. Oh, God.

[Matt Koplik]

And what's so funny is that that song ends up being a premonition because they talk about doing a photo shoot for a fancy gay magazine, which Jeff ends up doing when they move to Broadway and they have lunch with Bernadette.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And they.

[Matt Koplik]

They even mention this in the Broadway version, where they're like, it's so weird to sing a song about Having lunch with Bernadette, and she's sitting right there. Right there.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

I also love. In the Broadway version, as they're talking about the off Broadway run, and they talk about how Kitty Carlile Hart. Carlile. And. And Susan says. Oh, let me tell you what she said to me. She goes. She comes backstage and she goes to Heidi and she goes, where did you get that beautiful voice? And then she turns to me all Kitty Carlisle Hardy, and she says, how do you keep your feet so clean? And what's also funny about that is, I mean, Susan's, I think, barefoot most of the time.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

She's barefoot almost the whole time.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, like, it's not a. I think.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Maybe the whole time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's not an off question.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, it's so true. Like, you're on a stage, like a dirty Broadway stage, and your feet are spotless.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Kitty Carlisle Hart knows what's up.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, exactly. It's actually a really astute thing to ask.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She knows exactly what's up.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah. And Susan Blackwell is so thrilled that she asks.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That's a story for the ages.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

For the ages. And now it's in the show.

[Matt Koplik]

On that note, let's take one last break.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Thank you. Break.

[Matt Koplik]

Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Billy]

You're the top.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah.

[Billy]

You're an Arrow caller. You're the top.

[Guest D]

You're a coolage dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the nimble thread of the. And we're back. And we're back. So, I mean, we haven't. I mean, we've both talked and not talked about the show, which I think is.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

Should we just, like, really get.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Let's get into it.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So what is a moment of the show that you really treasure? That, like. I mean, I'm sure there are many. But, like, first thing that come to mind.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

First thing that comes to mind. Oh, my goodness. Probably there's two that come to mind. It's the scene going into way back to then. It's sort of the resolution, the denouement, so to speak, after the big conflict. And it's so tender and done so concisely because these four have a connection that, like a friendship, a true friendship, not one that can be completely destroyed based on, like, a bad photo shoot.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But the whole. The conflict resolution. And because this is how I am with my friends, it's like, if there's some sort of, you know, anger or frustration there, both parties always come to each other. Being like, we're Good. And that's what it feels. And then we jump into way back to the end. And the three of them just watch as Heidi sings it. And it's so tender, and it is very quick in the script. So kudos to them because the resolution of that conflict is very concise. But it's also how friends deal with it. And that was so much fun doing every night and watching my friend Maggie sing way back to then as we just, like, sat and got to listen, it was. It was a dream. But also the very, very end of the show. So post nine people's favorite thing, and they're just standing, being like, so how do we end it? It's. It's so like, oh, it's the end of the road. Oh, what a long road we hoed. Now we have to let go. This is the last line of our show. And it's like, so they could have easily just ended with nine people's favorite thing had it be like, a button and everyone just applauds. But that wouldn't be title or show. Like, title. It's so about, like, okay, we just wrote a finale, and now what? And it's like, let's just step off. And it's so tender. And I have chills talking about it. And again, it's one of those things it just. It can sit in an earnest place without an ounce of sarcasm. And it's a testament to the four of them, I think. I think. And it's something I strive for to never lose honesty and even, no matter how crazy the comedy is, to always have, you know, the heart. And that's what they are. And I. They also. I think they really did that again with. Now hear this. Of course, with less critical success, because.

[Matt Koplik]

It was a little.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It was more of a swirl off. This is what they called it of title of show. But, I mean, I think it also has that, too. And those are the two moments that come to mind.

[Matt Koplik]

Those are great moments. I love. What I love about way back to then is that it is sort of like a. A reboot for most artists of why do we do it?

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not. No. No matter what anyone says, no one truly had, like, the calling of I am the artist and I must make the art. It was a passion and a joy and a love that came at some point in your youth that stayed in you and sprouted into something greater. And then, as we've mentioned, no, this business is hard. And, yeah, not everyone cleans their own house. And therefore, like, they will lash out in Ways in a creative process which is already very vulnerable and rough, that will make it not the most fun. And you sometimes lose sight of what it is that got you into doing this in the first place. And that song way back to then is Heidi singing ultimately what she talks to Jeff about earlier about, I'm now the mold for this role, but it's also like, I found it, the joy that I had when I was a child wanting to do this and making this piece, that means so much to me, but it's also just full of love. It's. It's so pure and it's so earnest. And honestly, so many musical theater songs that are like pure and earnest can be a little eye rolly. So the fact that this one, and I think this one isn't, and I think it is, it's the specificity of it.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's why. Because it's the imagery.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's dancing in the backyard, Kool Aid mustache and butterfly wings. Hearing Andrea McArdle sing from the hi Fi in the den that I remember like moms coming up to me after child show being like that. It was me. Like, that was. It was. And it's such a good thing to remember as someone who writes now, like, the more specific you can get, the better and clearer the image will be. And the way she says, I've been waiting my whole life to find a way back to then because, you know, she's performing but she. In the show, she's a little disillusioned with it. She's tired and she's. She doesn't get the assistant ensemble, like assistant stage manager track or whatever because she doesn't fit the costume. Like, she is a little bit, you know, frustrated as all of. All of them are with it, with the industry. So the fact that, you know, you watch a character find that for herself and she's obviously singing on behalf of all four of them is such a good way to like 11 o' clock number the show. And it's. Oh, God, it's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because you think about where they all are when the show begins, they definitely all look at Heidi as the most successful and she is in the respect of theater. But, you know, Susan, actress, writer, who hasn't been auditioning in a very long.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Time, working in the corporate job.

[Matt Koplik]

Working in the corporate job. Jeff works for, you know, a website, hasn't, you know, performed in a while. Jeff hasn't performed in a while. He's doing catering gigs.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, yeah, Hunter.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Hunter. Yeah, Hunter. Doing catering gigs. Jeff is working For a website.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And, you know, they're doing what they can to survive. And. And while Heidi might be doing, like, the most glamorous version of that in terms of acting, it's still tough because she's going from job to job. And yes, she is working and she's able to support herself, but she's not, you know, overly successful. She's never. She's not able to pick roles. She has to go in and hope that she can fit something.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, if it doesn't interfere with roller skating eel rehearsal, I'm in. You know, like, that's her reality. Not to say that that's not incredible and amazing, but, you know, she. She's. She's. She's doing the work, you know.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so the thing. When they. When they include the Little Mermaid stuff, because Heidi books.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Broadway in real life, and they include that in the Broadway version. Having never met Heidi, but having known a few people who did that production, it's one of those things where, again, with this industry, because it's so tough and jobs are rare and when you book something, you are grateful for the work and being something to do. But, I mean, we've talked about this on the POD before. Like, would you rather be in a show that artistically isn't fulfilling but is such a wonderful process because, like, the people are nice, or a show that's kind of a nightmare process, but it's a show that, like, fulfills your artistic soul.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's. I think it's the age. It's a forever question. And you just hope that you have both experiences. You don't have to choose.

[Matt Koplik]

And from what I understand, for that cast, for most of that cast of Mermaid, it was a good experience in the sense of, like, everyone got along pretty well.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But everyone was very aware that they were doing the Little Mermaid on. And like, no. No one gets into this business. Like, no one watches Sunday in the park with George on PBS in 1984 and going, one day I will play a roller skating eel.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You know, it's. And it's. It's a good reminder that, like, being on Broadway means so many different things.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And, like, you can be grateful for the job while also kind of, you know, saying, like, but this isn't totally what I want. Like, Audrey. Audrey even says this, like, she has an interview. I think it's the interviews. Interview, actually, where they talked about, like, well, tell us about your Broadway debut. She goes, well, I was. I was doing the tour of Secret Garden, and I go, to close out the show.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, like, my Broadway debut was, like, the last four months of Secret Garden. And, like, I tried really hard to convince myself at the time that it was magical because I was like, I'm on Broadway with Rebecca Luker and I'm singing Hindu. It's not quite the debut I imagined, but, like, I'm here.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then she says, no, like, Carousel was the one where it actually felt like the magic one. But. But. But that doesn't, you know, negate her experience with Secret Garden and with Heidi, you know, even though Mermaid is a gig and it's good money and she's. And I'm sure it was a lovely time for everyone. Like, when she's talking about, like, coming back to Broadway after doing Full Monty, she's not thinking herself. Like, I will understudy Cher Renee Scott, and I will be in Wheelies, and I'll be fine. Like, it's title of the show is that return I think she really wants. And I think that. And she's allowed to have that complaint because we're all human beings. But that's something that they all kind of discuss as the show gets bigger and closer to being something.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that ultimately is what makes Hunter, in that third act of the show, not a monster. But, like, you see where he is the one. He.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

He's the one that he begins to stray from what the four of them set out to do in search of, you know, commercial success.

[Matt Koplik]

He starts driving the manic train.

[Guest D]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And it comes from a very real place of having struggled for so long, and something finally is clicking.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it could go away at any moment.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You see his desperation, and it always makes sense. You're never like, Hunter. Such a dick. You completely understand where he's coming from. It's all he's ever wanted.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's. It was. One of my major points of contention with Kinky Boots is that for me, Charlie just makes such a heel turn in Act 2 for no reason.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

He'll turn. That's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

That's what it is.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, but that's, like. It's clever because sex is. Oh, did you even know? Did you get that heel turn? I was like, no, that's clever.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. I am so smart. I don't even realize how smart I am.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God, the cross you bear.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I know. It's why my torso is just so great.

[Guest D]

Yes. No.

[Matt Koplik]

But I always was like, oh, he kind of does a 180 during intermission that we never really got to see. And Hunter, like, you see why it happens, and he doesn't go so far off in the deep end that you're like this monster. But you. You know what's happening to him, because I think we've all had that where like, something clicks or you hope. If you hope to have it or something clicks and it could. And you can see the opportunity right there. And it's so within reach, and anytime it starts to slip away, you get a little panicked and a little insane. And it goes even further in the Broadway version, because with the Broadway version, they have the festival, they get the praise, and then they get to go to off Broadway pretty quickly and they get to do all these developments and then it sort of calms down. There's like a wait.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a lull. And this. This wasn't in the Vineyard version. And I'm glad they included it, which was like, once Vineyard. The two stints at Vineyard were over. There's like a year pause.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Susan's just waiting for the phone to ring.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Susan's back to her temp job. Heidi's auditioning, and they're not seeing each other as much because they got to keep working.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's what causes Hunter to start doing the title of show.

[Guest D]

Show. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is if I'm. If this show is going to go anywhere, I got to make it myself. I can't keep waiting for the phone to ring. And it's. And they make jokes about it in the actual title of the show. Show. Where like the whole Are they going to Broadway? Rumors started just from them going on YouTube and going.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And being like, we're. We're going to Broadway, we're going to Broadway. They just like it's. They. The manifesting of it all, like, it really was manifesting in its purest form and just.

[Matt Koplik]

And starting to create content that people were interested in because it got people talking about them and using the Internet for good. Because.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because. Because the news outlets started being like, oh, it is Broadway. Is title show going to Broadway. Like, people would be writing articles and they'd be like, hehehe.

[Matt Koplik]

And then they would repost the article.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Exactly.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And people who lived in Indiana or Arizona who love theater but don't go to New York very often who didn't know of title the show.

[Guest D]

Oh yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

See about it on Broadway world and on YouTube. And then like, they make it a point if it goes to Broadway to come see it.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When they. When they go to New York. So it was all very, very smart, but also just came out of pure passion. And, like, no, we are. We are going to manifest this ourselves.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And the way they corralled their Broadway fans, like the episode where it's like. It's like, oh, should we get, like, stars? Should we get cameos? And they, like, become like, Kelly o' Hara is Jeff. Like, it's that kind of to feel the love from, you know, your favorite Broadway people. Like that. Oh, God, it's just so smart and got everyone so excited.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And there are some people in that celebrity video that do voicemails in the show. Although it. I was looking at the script, the published script doesn't have most of those voice messages, which is upsetting to me.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's the one they keep a Sutton Foster.

[Matt Koplik]

As well you should.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because first of all, plot device, but also plot device.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Well, it wasn't actually Sutton Foster in real life.

[Matt Koplik]

It wasn't.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It was a different actress.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, in real. Wait, so that was, like, an actual thing. Was that.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So they were thinking of replacing Heidi.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I did not know about that.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, no, that's real. And Hunter told me that I'm not gonna, like, say what actress it is, because I think he maybe told me that in confidence. But there was talk of replacing Heidi, and it wasn't actually going to be Sun Foster.

[Matt Koplik]

No. And, well, at the Vineyard, it's Emily Skinner, so.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, it is Emily Skinner.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, so then. So. So then they kept the voice.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So they kept. Yeah, so. So Emily Skinner was initially the person that I think they were thinking of, you know, because she is a little bit, like, more similar to Heidi in terms of, like, general vibe.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Than Sutton is. But they made it Sutton Foster, probably to take the sting out. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I take the sting out. And also when they move to Broadway, because one of the things in Charles is Sherwood's review for Off Broadway was he mentions that the whole, like, Emily Skinner voice message, he was like, I know that's a deep cut, because some of you. Many of you won't know who Emily Skinner is. Oh. And so I think when they moved to Broadway, like, we need to make.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It someone a little more undeniably Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

That everyone in the audience will know who it is. And so they make it Sutton. But the running joke is in both versions, off Broadway and Broadway is that they have all these voice messages from actresses who they, like, randomly reached out to to be entitled the show, and they're all saying no in very different ways.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And there are some off broad. There are some that change from Off Broadway to Broadway. It's not in the published script, unfortunately. But there are so many great ones. Like, they have Victoria Clark does one.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And she says, I'm so sorry, I can't. I'm busy. And you think she's going to say, like, all the. All the shows she's busy with, but it's just like, she's busy being a mom, so she's, like, talking about all the things she has to do for her kid and gets cut off. They have one where Marin Mazie. Rip. She. She burps in the middle of her.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God, it's so good.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Carrie Butler does, like. Carrie Butler is so good at the, like, sweet, plastic, mean girl. She's like, thank you so much. I would totally do it, but I'm just. I'm booked. I'm sorry. And you just know she doesn't mean it. And then Amy Spanger did one that eventually Amy Spanker did one, I think, for New York Music Theater Festival that then became Christine Ebersol at the Vineyard and Broadway, where she was like, thank you so much. How did you get my number?

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So smart.

[Matt Koplik]

So smart. And then Broadway, they moved. They added one for Patti LuPone where she was like, thank you for asking me to be in your show. I guess I'm. And she pretty much just like, I'm absolutely not gonna do it. Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, no way.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not even gonna lie to you and say, I'm busy. I'm not doing this. And also, please don't ask me to record Rainbow High for your outgoing voice messages. I won't do that either.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's just so good.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then it all results with Sutton Foster slash Emily sketch.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah. Being like, hey, actually, I'm sort of. I would love, you know, if Heidi. I don't know if Heidi's, like, in the show, but I'd love to, you know, let's talk.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that. I did not know that that was a real thing.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I bet it wasn't as, like. I bet they didn't go as far. But I do think it was, you know, floated around.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because the way it's described in the show is that they don't say yes, but more that, like, Hunter is very seriously considering it, especially because Heidi, of the four of them, because she gets the most work, she's the most likely to not be able to follow through with the show because the development is taking so long. And when they do, it's the awkward photo shoot and Heidi drops The bomb where she goes, so when these packets go out, are you going to be able to use Replace me with Sutton Foster? And. And then all the only lyrics are.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Just awkward photo shoot, click, click, click, click.

[Matt Koplik]

And then, you know, all the dialogue in between.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Susan going, I'm giving you broken doll.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm giving you broken doll.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is very big spender.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Or when she's like, you know, I think this is a good time to talk about, like.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, the pie.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

How we're gonna, you know, be compensated for our work.

[Guest D]

And then.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And then Jeff is like, oh, yeah, this is like, a perfect time to talk about profit sharing. So good.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, it's like the messy stuff. You kind of do have to figure out when you're making something, because it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's one of those things where you're like, I don't want this to feel like it's all about money, but, like, we did make this show with you.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's like. And money is going to be a conversation to be had.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And if. And if we are going to remain friends, we have to be honest about, like, what we all are entitled to. Entitled the show to.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Entitled to show.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Trying to think. Anything else? I mean, I could go.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I mean, I could. Literally, I could. I could talk about this for a million years.

[Matt Koplik]

Monkeys and playbills.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Monkeys and playbills.

[Matt Koplik]

So genius and ridiculous.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's. Oh, my God. And when I did it. Because some. We didn't have any, like, projections or anything. I did print out every single, like, cover of a play, but, like, made fake playbills and then held up every single one. I think a lot of people do. Like, some of them. But we, like, we really made it happen.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Off Broadway, they only do, I think, like, half of them. Enough to show you that, like, they are including flop shows. And then on Broadway, they did projections.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Of all them, which I appreciated, because it also gives you an insight into just how clever the lyrics are, because so many shows are in there.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I know. And you. You would miss a lot of them.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because they fit so beautifully in the narrative that they're creating. But no, really, all Jeff and Heidi are just almost exclusively singing show titles.

[Matt Koplik]

Pretty much.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Something more. I think that's a show title. It's all those things where you're like, oh, that's just a sentence. I'm like, no, it's actually a sentence of three different shows.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So nice to be civilized.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'll miss the stars in your eyes.

[Billy]

And Your smile But I gotta hit the trail come summer. He went back to the speedboat and watched censored scenes from King Kong. He found a shelter on the speedboat and he thought, here's where I belong Just me and my speedboat Merrily we roll along.

[Matt Koplik]

The show embraces the silliness of stage performance and stage tropes while also adhering to it at the same time. It's very Urinetown in that way of, like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Which I also love. I love Urinetown.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're in town's a little more show. Show and more.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And more kind of acknowledging the structure of musical theater. Whereas title, the show is more about the creation of musical theater and the niche trivia of it while also being its own show.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Whereas you're in town. If you see it as someone who doesn't know anything about theater, you wouldn't understand that, like, what is your in town is a Fiddler reference. So you wouldn't understand, like, there's plenty of things, you know, but you can still enjoy it. But, oh, my God, it is so much more fun when you are a fan of it.

[Guest D]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And depending on the director you have, you can add Easter eggs in the staging.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Also ripe for revival.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. I've been saying this for a while now. It needs to.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It feels crazy to me that it hasn't been revived.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because I just saw my. My alma mater, usc, just did. I happen to be in town and saw it and I'm like, God, it's like a constant reminder of, like, this is still pretty freaking airtight. Like it. The comedy of the. Is so good. The book is absolutely, absolutely fantastic.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And the score is brilliant. I mean, so I just think it.

[Matt Koplik]

Perhaps is time maybe that should be Michael Perez's show.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

He would be a really good mind for it. He has the sense of humor for it.

[Matt Koplik]

He does. And his. I think he would do really great staging for it. I'm. I'm down.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Okay, done. Mikey, Mikey, Mikey, Mikey.

[Guest D]

Boo.

[Matt Koplik]

Boo. Daddy Michael, if you can, please.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Saw that one coming.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Daddy Michael.

[Matt Koplik]

Yesterday was Daddy's day.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's so true. Oh, my God. You're so right about that.

[Matt Koplik]

He is God. I know. He's in a loving relationship and I love Jeff. And if Jeff wants a piece of this, too, I'm not gonna.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. You monster. You're a monster.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not a monster. I'm an equal opportunity slut.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, equal opportunity slut. I can't believe it.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that's the name of My memoir, Equal Opportunity Opportunity Slut.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I mean, New York Times bestseller.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I mean, another running joke of the show is drag queen names, which I was. Fair enough, fair enough. Patio Furniture. I was surprised, watching the vineyard production that it actually wasn't a running joke. They just have to lead a Pepsi.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Tulita Pepsi is very good. No, they make it.

[Matt Koplik]

They make it a thing. And I'm glad they do because it expands and makes it even funnier because they don't explain it at the vineyard. She just goes, if I get a new name in the show, I want it to be Tulita Pepsi.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, it's like every time we get a drag queen name, we text it to each other.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They have another one.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Minivan Rental Lady.

[Matt Koplik]

Lady Footlocker. They're all great. They're all absolutely great. And it's just. I don't know, it's. It's one of those things where, like, it. In a way, it's a little bit, like, shocked.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Where it's, you know, also a million.

[Matt Koplik]

A million niche jokes.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's sort of like if you don't get that one, you'll get one.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You let it wash over you.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You'll get one later on. But part of. I think. I think why. I kind of prefer the niche jokes and title show, and not just because they cater to me, but I think because the vibe of title show is for friends. Just kikiing.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So even if that's how you talk.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Even if there's something that you don't get, you still.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You understand that it's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You get the vibe of it and. And it. And you still feel like you're in some kind of, like, cool little club or, like, nerdy club. And that's. That's enough.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, gosh.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When you.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And then I love coming back to the show because I'll realize, oh, my gosh, that's a reference I didn't. Maybe didn't understand then, but now I do because I now have experienced this show firsthand, you know, that kind of thing. So much fun.

[Matt Koplik]

And there are things that they cut from Vineyard for Broadway that, like when. When people say, like, oh, it's circle jerk and Nishi, it's like. Well, yeah. But, like, there are things that they cut that only made them laugh because they were. They were. They were taking an audience into account.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

For example. And I mean, I wish they kept it just because it's so random and stupid. In September Song, when they're doing the festival Medley. They have a one where they go all competing for ticket sales and coverage in the press and everything stops. And then they just do a club dance for five seconds.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So good.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so random.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's so random.

[Matt Koplik]

And off Broadway when they did it, it was just like they do coverage in the press and the lights change to red and they just dance for five seconds and then they go right back into the number for no reason.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

It's just. It's just cuz it fits just like a. Like a visual.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like you just get a break from. Because the September song is like a really intense song.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's non stop fun.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's like a way to. Instead of having the. The trope of someone coming up from air being like, you know, which a lot of things have. It's like, let's instead just do a five second break.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Which I love.

[Matt Koplik]

It's very Meredith Gray. Christina Yang. Let's just dance it out for five seconds and then go right back into the. Into the trauma.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh my God. I love Grey's Anatomy.

[Matt Koplik]

I love the first days. I love the first five seasons.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But that's. I think that's what anyone means when they say I love Grey's Anatomy.

[Matt Koplik]

Right? Yeah, it's when I say I love Sex and City, I'm like, yes, until season five.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

Got it.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I don't hate season five or six. I'm just. I think one through four is actual good writing.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Got it. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

And then we go into Ladies.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I really do.

[Matt Koplik]

And then we go. Then we go into the ladies Foot Locker seasons.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But another part I just want to mention that I love so much is filling out the form. That's all I have to say.

[Guest D]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that too.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You're on. No, no, Susan, you're on the 9th.

[Matt Koplik]

Filling out the form. You're. No. Can suck my notes. You notice my notes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Okay. Okay. It's like so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like the awkwardness of. Because that's what I try to. I mean, I try to strive for the comedy of like. Oh my God. The process of doing theater is like. Can be so silly and like they got that so brilliantly being like, I'm sorry, I can't get my part. And then it was. Okay, well, let's figure it out. You're on the 9th. So fun.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. It's again, it's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the joy and ridiculousness of. Of a show I'll Put it on a show and it's so fun. It's a combination of, like, adult. Not cynicism, but, like, sardonic edge mixed with high school theater kid.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

You know that SNL sketch of the, like, high school.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Will Ferrell, the one that was cut for time? Oh, no. High School Theater Showcase.

[Guest D]

Yeah. No, no, no.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, all of them.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. What are you talking about?

[Matt Koplik]

I talk about the music video with Lynn where they're doing Crucible Cast Party. Crucible Cast Party, which is like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And how everybody comes and nobody nuts.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And they're all. They all take the show so seriously.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Of course.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, let's go into a closet and watch a video of tonight of the show. Oh, my God. Or, like, I mean, I know that they ended up pulling it because they thought it was too mean, but when they did the Legally Blonde one, and they're all backstage talking about it, I hate that they.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's not online anymore.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. Makes me feel crazy because there's one line that 80 Bryant says where she's like, can a high school show win a Tony Award?

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're like, no, that's so unfair. And it's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

Did you go to. Did you go, like, to a theater camp?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, yeah, I went to. Well, not a theater. No. I didn't go to, like, Stage Door, French woods, or what I call French Door Stage Woods. I. I. Because I didn't do really theater seriously until freshman year of high school, so I did, like, summer programs that were not necessarily camp.

[Matt Koplik]

She went to programs. We didn't sleep in cabins, we slept in.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You went to Stage Door?

[Matt Koplik]

I went to stage.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Literally.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course I did. To everyone Take a shot. We mentioned it again, but.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

The thing about Stage Door, which I love looking back on it, is it did prepare me for sort of the Broadway stage scene, because kids treated Stage Door like Broadway.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

Of who was famous there, who wasn't. Like, what. What are the shows going to be like? People were guessing shows. People were guessing what theaters they were gonna go and who's gonna cast as what.

[Guest D]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And there was all this drama of, like, oh, can so and so handle that score? I don't know.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Like, I love. I. I think I'm actually really glad I didn't go to them. I think I would be a lot more insufferable if I went. You know, I was so impressionable as a kid. Like, I would have become a nightmare.

[Matt Koplik]

You Know, I think depending on who you are, I guess, and sort of what your journey is with theater, I find most of the people that I'm still in touch with from stage door, we all. We did have an insufferable. Insufferable period.

[Guest D]

Oh, good, good.

[Matt Koplik]

When it. When it happened for each person. Who's to say. Sure. But you eventually come out of it. Yeah, great.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

The other side.

[Matt Koplik]

At least I hope so.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But you sure it was right there? It was right there. Right there. Oh, no, he's crying. He's crying.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm crying.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

He's crying. He's crying.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, no, no, I'm not crying. That was acting. Thank you. So, yeah, Lori Madcap's got nothing on me. Oh, no, not at all.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Gray house. Who is she?

[Matt Koplik]

Gray house girl. I'm a rainbow house grandma.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Rainbow house. Happy pride.

[Matt Koplik]

Happy pride. But so what else is there to say? Everything. So all I was going to say was, with, like, those theater kids, it's that intensity of. Of these shows, meaning everything in the world. And you look back, you're like, who cares who played Evita in 2007? Or like, I still do, but you're in town. Was the B show at the lc. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You're speaking a different language all of a sudden.

[Matt Koplik]

I know, but it's that kind of passion mixed with the adulthood of like, yeah, you're silly.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But also it's like, it's like a knowing it's participating in it with like, like always a nudge. Nudge.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Heidi has that line when she first meets them where Hunter and Jeff make some kind of reference. And Heidi goes, is it just me.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Or to get a 3 degree gayer in here? And then Susan's like, I like you.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They look at each other like, oh, we didn't talk about. We really didn't talk about either of the Susan Heidi duets. We kind of mentioned. What kind of girl is she? But not a lot. A little bit. A little bit. The random French.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Can I pee?

[Matt Koplik]

You can go pee.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm gonna.

[Guest D]

I need.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm gonna pee myself.

[Matt Koplik]

Go pee.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Okay, everyone, I'm gonna go pee.

[Billy]

I want to apologize for any weirdness. Me too. It can be really scary being the new kid. I bet. I'll bet. You bet I do.

[Matt Koplik]

I bet.

[Billy]

And I also want to say that after all we've been through, I'm so glad we've met. I feel the same way, baby. The secondary characters are calling the shots while the guys are being stored in the wings. We've Been left in charge of it all while the plot's unfolding like the Lord of the Rings, Trail of J.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. I needed to pee for a while.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm so glad that you.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And I was like, you know, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna ask.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm just like, can I pee? Like, and then like, no, you actually have to sit in this chair. Like, no. I'm so glad I pissed. This is good.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm so glad you pissed.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm so glad I pissed. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Have you ever listened to Breakfast Buffet with Cola Skoll and Jeffrey Self?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my. I love both of them, and I've only listened a couple of the episodes. I might not understand your reference.

[Matt Koplik]

No, there's no. It's just one, like, person they have on who keeps saying, like, I love my husband.

[Guest D]

Pass.

[Matt Koplik]

And they just say it so many times where even if you didn't find it funny at first, it becomes so repetitive.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It was just like. You're like, wait, this is funny.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You just. You just start to laugh.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I love Cole and Jeffrey.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I would see them do title of show.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, they would probably tweak it to make it even more disgusting.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, they would. Oh, my God. That is so smart. Someone asked me recently to celebrity cast it, and I was like, let me think. And I think what I landed on was Bowen Yang as Hunter, and then Jonathan Bailey is Jeff. Huh. And then Aubrey Plaza is Susan.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And I think I said, who did I put for Heidi? Who did I put? Oh, my gosh. Was it Amber?

[Matt Koplik]

Amber Riley?

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Maybe Amber Riley is Heidi. Maybe she has, like, the comedic.

[Matt Koplik]

I also would. I would. I would allow Stephanie Shue as Susan as well.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. That's such a good idea.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She could do Heidi, too. But I would, like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, I would love to see her do to Die vampire Die. That feels right.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But Aubrey also is.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But Aubrey is, like, her dryness is, like, so similar to Susan's.

[Matt Koplik]

The way that. The way that Aubrey would say, I have. My dudes about doing a musical have medus. Which is. Which is also, by the way, if you read the script, they're so clever about they have, like, all these notes beforehand of, like, how to think of certain scenes. All this stuff. Exactly. And they even say, like, medoots. It's written in the script as I have my duts. And they go in parentheses. This means my doubts.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

This means my doubts.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I also. Because there's so many niche references in the show, and I was doing it in my small town and. And you know, so a lot of people weren't going to understand a lot of the jokes, so I made a glossary in the back in case people were confused of every single reference that matters.

[Matt Koplik]

That's something that I intend to do. I may or may not be doing. Working on a 54 Below concert of Smile.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, we say may or may not. Like we, we want to do it. It's a matter of like, whether we can get funding and scheduling or whatnot. But it's, it's something that we. I've been talking about with some people over there and I can see that.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Show having a really cool second life.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, it's that show. I've talked about it a lot. My guests know about this so much. But like, I think that show actually is super relevant and.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, fully.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It works so much better than people realize. Yeah, it's. It's like kind of halfway between title of the show and Ruthless, where it's like, it's a little campy, but very self aware.

[Guest D]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But I want to create like a glossary of, of Smile for like all the tables of 54 below so you'll know what all the references are.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, by all means, do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Jerry Ferraro. That is Geraldine Ferraro. She was, she was the vice president nominee for, I think it was the Democratic ticket in the 80s or no, late 70s. But yeah, it's that kind of shit because like, Gen Zers are like. Jerry Ferraro.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Is that a person who lived?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That a person who lived? Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, I always, I don't. I. My whole thing is like, I'm not going to hold any. I'm not going to have. Hold anyone's hand, you know, like ingesting content. But if they do want to try harder, then I'm like, yeah. I'm going to put a glossary in the back of the program for you in case you, you know, want to learn.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it always just helps. And the show is also. Title show is very smart about a lot of that stuff. Like with the whole. The whole show begins with what is now a drag queen stole my shrimp.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, Drag queen stole my shrimp.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And then goes into Mary Stout Got hit by a Hot Dog Cart. And then later on when they're developing it further for possibly Broadway Hunter's, like, we got to change that.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like what? No one, no one's gonna know. No, but Mary Stout was hit By a dog. Like, so what?

[Matt Koplik]

Why would we change that? That's what happened. He's like, well, we got to change to Al Roker. People know Al Roker.

[Guest D]

Yeah, Al Roker.

[Matt Koplik]

And the irony being when they moved to Broadway, Emily Skinner became Sutton Foster.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, it's. It's. It's the change it. Don't change it of it all.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Is. So I just ran into it. I was. I'm working on a. I'm writing a short film with my friend, and we were so happy with the product, and then we had our writing session the next week and we were like, wait, did we change everything, like, out of. Maybe we need to make this, you know, get to this faster, that kind of thing. And then all of a sudden, like, it began to crumble. And then we're like, wait, I think we actually had it really good the first time around. But yeah, I mean, if you're sort of given the task of like, oh, do some revisions, you kind of start going crazy sometimes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, because edits and rewrites, like, it feels like easy progress in a way where it's like, oh, I can cut this, I can move this. And it's like, well, at that point, are you making it better or worse and.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Or changing it for changes?

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly, exactly. And you lose sight of what it is you're trying to create. I have something that I wrote, and I had a reading in March on my birthday, and I had someone there who I love, who's very smart and whatnot. And afterwards, like a week or two later, we talked about it, and their feedback was such. Was like, oh, do I need to rewrite my entire thing?

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then eventually I thought about it. I was like, no. I think this person essentially wanted me to write something that isn't what I want to write.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So I'm not going to do that. But it was the first time I had that way. I had. It was the first time I was like, oh, fuck, do I need to, like, completely overhaul this?

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, edits, rewriting, it's a very important thing because you don't want to just assume your first draft is your best draft. And if you trust your taste and your intellect, you can look at your stuff and, and, and, you know, find ways to make it stronger. But you do also need to, like, step away from time to time, because if you get too in the woods with edits and change it, don't change it.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

As you said, it becomes changing for changing sake.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Change for changing sage, which, I mean, it's so. I mean, I think it's so easy to relate to that as someone who, like, creates, because you can be happy with someone, something, and then you can always sort of talk your way out of liking your own stuff. Always. So it's like. But I mean, the line in nine People's Favorite Thing is like, we can either follow our instinct or take advice from every joker. We can either be distinct or wind up merely mediocre. But not me. And I love that. It's like, instincts are sort of all we have as artists and creatives. And being distinct is your job. And it's like, you don't want to, you know, make something and change it, and then it ends up being a mediocre product. Like, that's the whole conceit.

[Matt Koplik]

Speaking of the woman who came in and fucked up everything in the third act of the show, Sudden Foster.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Help. No. She's such a good sport. But she. I was listening. I mean, I'm so fucking obsessed with her and. Have you read Hooked?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, I actually haven't. Is there an audiobook version of it? Because I want to hear her read it, but I want to hear something. Mustard.

[Matt Koplik]

Read the book. Honestly, probably. I. But I haven't read it. I was very eager to read it, so my friend Elena lent it to me.

[Guest D]

But.

[Matt Koplik]

And I've listened to her talk about all this on other podcasts, including the Spark Files.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's. That's what I.

[Matt Koplik]

She says, you know, when she talks to students going into theater. Her three pieces of advice. The third one has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Get a hobby. But she says, say yes to opportunities and trust your gut.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, you know, do things that scare you. But also, when something is feeling, there's a difference between, like, something being new and scary and being wrong.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you have to trust your instincts if something is wrong.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Even if someone says, like, oh, I know best, believe me, there's no one who actually knows.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, no, no. Because we've seen. I mean, after just listening to your Roadshow episode, I. Because, you know, I was telling about. I was like, I just wanted to listen to something about Roadshow. So I was like, perfect. And it goes to show. I mean, the best, brightest people can make a show that isn't good.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And. And that's fine. So it's like, even, you know, you can't. You have to take every single person, no matter how important they are, they. Everyone is capable of making mistakes.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think if you're if you're creating something, it's great to have people around you whose opinions you trust.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not even always agree with, but just trust. And so if you disagree with them, you know that their opinion is not coming from a bad place and it makes it easier to trust your gut.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because if. If someone you. Whose opinion you trust says something that makes you go, huh, that could be possibly true. There's no doubt about where that note is coming from there. And it gives you the courage to explore that note and maybe make that change or not.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And be like, I'm confident in my not making that change.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. But it's. I wrote a script a long while back that I was trying to make happen and obviously the pandemic hit. I don't know if you heard about her, but she happened. But before that happened, I had a meeting with someone who is like, you know, for lack of a better word, extremely successful. It's one of those things where, like, how do you describe this? They're very successful, Oscar nominated, Emmy nominated person. And basically their advice when it came to taking notes was like, if you can come up with the defense for any note someone gives you, you know, then stick to your guns.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But if someone offers you a note and you have no retort other than like, you like the thing.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, then maybe explore the note.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's such a good.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like. So he's like, oh, you know, you don't want to cut that line because you like the line, but tell me how this fits dramatically. I'm like, yeah, can. He's like, then explore the idea of cutting it.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is good.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Kill your babies.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Kill your darlings. And if you are worth your weight in like you were talking about earlier, the ideas will keep coming.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe not immediately all the time, but they come.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What do you do to kind of. What's your spark file?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

What's my spark file?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, what do you do?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's ingesting a lot of media. So, like, I see a lot of theater. I mean, I try to see like, at least like probably three shows a week, if I can. Oh, just say money.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, but being a theater influencer, I almost never pay for theater tickets.

[Matt Koplik]

It's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's kind of like I'm invited to a lot of things. I'm very lucky. Best part of the job.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And. But I say yes to every single invite I get. I'm like, I will see no matter what it is, whether it Be a Broadway show or just like a random show downtown. I would love to come. Yeah, and that always helps. I mean, of course with my videos in particular because it's about theater and like all I just saw. I saw three shows yesterday because I went at Rent at Paper Mill and then saw my friends sister show at 54 below and then went to Broadway Bears in Midnight. So it was like. But that's my dream day. I just want to like ingest live performance. So that is a lot of it because like, if I feel like I the well is completely dry, especially considering my videos are about theater, then I see something and then usually, you know, something can come to mind that I didn't think of before. So that's, that's part of my Spark file. And then I love watching new stuff, like new TV shows and movies and stuff. But I'd have my favorites that I just go back to because they're like old friends and shows like Broad City shows like veep shows like 30 rock shows like, I mean, I'm watching the other two right now, but I always like rewatching the early seasons and I'm rewatching looking right now. As I mentioned to you before, there are certain shows that I'm like, I can always put it on. It's like an old friend. And I love having, you know, pieces of art in my life that I always come back. And I mean, the same goes for a lot of musicals. Title of show being one of them. Like I love my every six month complete ready dive, deep dive into the show and the title of show show and all that. And watching Susan Blackwell interviews just like side by side by Susan Blackwell. And now I sort of do that. I do red carpet interviews and stuff like that. And it's not lost on me that I think a lot of my approach to it is because of Susan, her and her casualness when it came to interviewing. And yeah, so it's all of that. Those are my Spark files. I think it's. It's old friends in terms of TV shows and then seeing a lot of new theater. That's like, that's my secret.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, those are, those are good secrets to her.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

This is the thing about title of the show that I think also we don't. A lot of people don't realize is people like Susan Blackwell, Heidi Blickenstaff, who really were able to kind of go to a whole new level of notoriety in the theater community from this little show that could. And Heidi's now went from being someone who had to kind of fit into other people's molds. Now just being a full blown leading lady all over the place. And Sus and Susan working in film and TV all the time, being a personality, having the podcast, like she's just around and. And is able to do it without ever sacrificing who she is.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

That's so wonderful to see.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Because Susan, whatever magic combination that. That happened to me make Susan Blackwell, like, she's such a important and sharp, like, comedic figure in my life and many lives. And like, it's so great that this was the platform, you know, because I even I, on my birthday, I think in 2018, I saw gone Missing at Encores. It was just one of their, you know, shows. Just because Susan was in it. I was like, all I want to do is see Susan Blackwell in a show. And she was in Gone Missing. I was like, absolutely. I will absolutely see it. So, yeah, I. And then also, I mean, Jeff and I mean Hunter, I just saw Broadway Bears last night and he was one of the book writers on it and, like, came out and bowed and like, seeing him, you know, still just as joyous and as loved as he, you know, has always been. And then Jeff has never stopped writing. I mean, they're writing that musical together, which has been in development for a long time, you know, which is exciting to me that they're still collaborators. I just love it all. It just. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they all. And they all still love each other. They're all still friends.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I watched the title of the show Reunion on the side by Side by Susan Blackwell episode in prep for this, and it was just like everyone where.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

They'Re eating, they're at a restaurant. Like, Uncle Fritz sits happily in the bathtub.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so good. And to see that rapport still intact and, and obviously, like, we don't know, know them like their day to day, but it's very clear that, like, those friendships have not wavered in any way. They all still very much are in each other's lives. And again, I think that that, that pure joy and love and not lack of condescension, as we mentioned earlier, is what keeps those friendships alive. The thing about relationships, friendships, love, relationships and things like that, it's like people always talk about, like, the work and effort that goes into them. And that is true. In order to keep a relationship thriving, you do have to put in work, but the work should never feel like effort.

[Guest D]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like laborious.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's. You're. It's something you you love. And therefore, you know, the effort, the work doesn't feel like work.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's just. No, of course I'm gonna, you know, reach out to you to see what's going on with your week.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

In my mind, that's just me, you know, being your friend. That's not me.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, oh, God, I send the text today. That's not me to do list.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Hoenn in the garden.

[Guest D]

That.

[Matt Koplik]

None of that shit. And that is. I see. I see it with the four of them, and maybe I'm projecting. I don't think I am, though.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I see it with the four of them, and I go, oh, God, that is. That is the healthiest of healthy friendships.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah. It looks so amazing. And they're able to create together. And I think that. And that's not. I mean, some of my closest friends, I would never even try to make something with. I mean, that's like. That's such a different beast.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So the fact that not only do the four of them, like, understand each other on such a friendship level, but they were able to collaborate and create two really great musicals, and that's just like, God, that's lightning in a bottle to me. It is so special.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Now let's see them do romance. Romance together.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Of all the shows, Romance, Romance. That's the first that came to mind for you? Well, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I was trying to think of four people musicals. I love my wife.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I love you. You're perfect Now Change.

[Matt Koplik]

Four people, maybe. Is it. I don't know that show well enough.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think I love you is I love you. Because also, four people.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I think it's. I think it's like five people. People. And then you can add some people.

[Matt Koplik]

I love you. You're perfect now change. They can do that one.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, fine. Whatever.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Watch everyone being like, you're an idiot. That is not for people.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, I had an episode.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

There's like, edges, edges.

[Matt Koplik]

I had an episode with Suddenly Seymour where I couldn't for the life of me remember the word acupuncture.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And so you're like, needles. Needle.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, literally, like. I was like the needle thing. And. And sudden couldn't realize it either. I was like, my listeners are going to be going insane because they know.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I love when I'm listening to a podcast, I. And someone that can't think or someone gets something slightly wrong. I'm sure we've had that. Maybe even in this episode. Something. No. Idiots. But it always makes me Giggle.

[Matt Koplik]

I get told all the time when people are listening to the podcast, like, I will fully be responding to you on the subway, realizing I'm not actually in the room.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Isn't that the goal, though, that people feel like it's just like a play date and we're all just talking? It's fun.

[Matt Koplik]

It's fun.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Is she fun?

[Matt Koplik]

I think that comes from you and I just being so organic and natural.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my. Is that.

[Guest D]

Is that it?

[Matt Koplik]

What you see is what you get with us, baby.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You know, I don't think of anything else with title of show that we, like, didn't cover that.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, there's some. It's one of those things where we could just go on forever and ever.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I know I could. We could just like, comb through the whole show and talk about every single moment we love. But, yeah, I think I. Yeah, I love the show.

[Matt Koplik]

I do. I. I don't think I give a proper shout out to the score of the show. I want to say. I mean, you did. You were. You were very thoughtful. But I just want to say, I love re listening to it. I was like, oh, this score really is quite fantastic. And I remember when so they opened on Broadway in July and you know, at the July seum. And at the time, everyone was like. There was a half camp of people who were like, oh, I think it could do really well. It costs no money to run.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you know, clearly the theater community loves it. And then the other half are like, absolutely not. It's so niche. No one outside of, like, Broadway actors know who these people are.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And sort of half and half are true. They ended up running for about three months, which I look back, I'm like, it's a miracle they ran that long because it. The title of show. Show was really their only press.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Leading up to it, like, they didn't do Giant, like national coverage in anyway. I don't think they could afford to.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No way. There's no way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they could.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so they. They made the most of what they had. They close and, you know, I remember that final performance. It was a huge flourish. You know, they got to do the Gypsy of the Year event a few months later. Clearly everybody still loved them. And then Hunter gets a Tony nomination for this book, which was so incredible.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

But I also thought to myself, I'm like, I think Jeff should have been nominated for score. And then I thought about those four nominees. It was Billy Elliot. No. Yeah, it was Billy Elliot next to normal Shrek and nine to five.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It's pretty fierce.

[Matt Koplik]

It's pretty fierce.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It was a fierce year. Oh, my God. That was such a good year.

[Matt Koplik]

It was. And if we were doing, you know, the 2016 onwards where it we get five naminis now, I think Jeff could have easily.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I completely agree.

[Matt Koplik]

But I do sometimes wonder in my. Because we talked when I had Ben Rimmelauer on to do Tony Snubs. We're like, you can't just say snub like who was snubbed. You have to say who you'd replace them with, which makes it more difficult.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Scary.

[Matt Koplik]

So I'm like, okay, who would I replace to get title the show in there? And here's where it gets tricky.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, I, I, I, I can't. There's only I, I, I guess 9 to 5 would be my answer, but I actually love this.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so here's. So here's the thing. I'm like the first. The one that stays is our winner. Next to normal. Obviously, that absolutely has to stay. While Shrek is not my favorite tesori.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

It was my first Broadway show I ever saw with Shrek.

[Matt Koplik]

How old are you?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

24.

[Matt Koplik]

Go yourself.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But it was 2009.

[Matt Koplik]

The year you were born was the year that Michael Baress made me realize I might be gay one day.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

In 1998.

[Matt Koplik]

1999. Oh, you're born in 98.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm 98. I turned 25 next month.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. Well, hello, Daddy.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Hello, Daddy. Oh, my goodness.

[Matt Koplik]

When one day people are going to start calling you Daddy unironically.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I know. I'm scared.

[Matt Koplik]

It's going to happen. It's going to happen. But so Shrek, it's not my favorite story, but it's like, probably my second to least favorite story. But there's no to stories where I.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Decide to least favorite.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's not. I say this because we got ourselves fun home. Caroline, Kimberly, Violet, Violet, which are just like, I, I wouldn't. I would kill someone else to hold on to those forever. And then we have Shrek where I'm like, that is a gentleman.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Is Millie, like your least favorite?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Just because it's half not her.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, it is half not her.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Shrek is like a gentleman. 7.5. And then Millie is a gentleman. 7.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

So when I say it's my second to least, I'm not like, who I'd be though.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

One of the best actors.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I love who I'd be. I love so many songs.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I mean, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, of course. So I Think I would keep Shrek. And then it's between Billy Elliot and nine to five.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Here's the thing. I actually probably prefer the score to 9 to 5, but, like, I don't want to. Billy Elliot won best musical that year. So I'm like, is that crazy for me to say, take Elton out of the race? Because I don't think the magic of that show is the score.

[Matt Koplik]

No. The moment you said Elton, I'm like, killer. But, oh, my God. Oh, my God. The score for Billy Elliott does what it's supposed to do, which is that it's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

No, it serves its purpose, for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a jumping off point for the dance.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

For the dance.

[Matt Koplik]

Because that's the whole point, is that the main character best expresses himself through dance. So the score is not meant to be Sondheim. It's meant to, you know, be as sort of basic enough for these characters to then leap into dance. So it does what it set out, what it sets out to do. But if I'm. If you're like, Matt, you gotta kill one to put in title of the show.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think I can take it away from Dolly because she gave us the COVID vaccine, so. And also.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Also. And also, hold on. That score. I listen to 9 to 5 a lot. Shine like the sun.

[Guest D]

Bop.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Change it.

[Guest D]

Bop.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

There's. Around here. The opening number is absolute electricity. Then you get. Get out and stay out. Here's the thing. The lyricism isn't profound, but I love a lot of that score. I love it. I think it's so much fun. And that cast was so undeniable that that cast album is just so much fun for me. So I might actually get rid of Billie Elliott as well. But my, like, intellectual answer is probably getting rid of it. But, yeah. Doesn't feel right.

[Matt Koplik]

I call get out and Stay out and Ode to Nodes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. An Ode to Nodes. That is what it is.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's an ode to nodes. And Stephanie J. Block just comes on stage and she goes, what's hard? And it's like, you. You don't. What? You don't know. It's hard.

[Guest D]

Yeah. You don't.

[Matt Koplik]

It's.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

God. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, what? It's simply a high. A flat.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm like, she is singing. She's. God, Stephanie J. Block.

[Matt Koplik]

What a.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

What a gift she has.

[Matt Koplik]

Sometimes I want to say, slap people. They're so talented.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

She's one of. She is. And then also the fact that she's, like, hilarious and yeah, like that whole falsettos of it all. Like, that survival, like, changed me forever.

[Matt Koplik]

Speaking of slaps. And then we'll cut it out. Two nobodies in New York has some of my favorite bit of choreography, which is when they do the Dinah man off bit.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Dinah Manoff.

[Matt Koplik]

She's awesome. She was in Greece and leader of the pack. Slap. And then he slapped. Because they're facing each other and getting close to each other. And he slaps Jeff. Right before we could ask significant questions, I.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

When we're doing it for my solo show, I was talking to Ben Rahul, who's a music director, and he's like, I feel like we need to change Dinah Manoff. And I was like, I agree. Because, like, no one in the audience is gonna know who Dyna Manoff. It's like, well, is there someone we can change? So we really went around and, like, toyed with it, and we did change it. I'm not gonna give it. Give it away right now. But it's like a very funny, funny addition that works meter wise with the shows that we're mentioning everything. So I will tell you that off air.

[Matt Koplik]

Please do. We could get that woman who was on Falcon Crest.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my close. Because I'm like, on Falcon Crest. No, you're gonna die. You're gonna. You're gonna die.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm looking forward.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No, just this show for everybody who might discover it and not love it. There's gonna be someone who's gonna discover it and love it.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. I. I think it's such a great home based kind of a show. It's. It's a bomb in so many ways. And it's hard to talk about it. Not feel like floaty, effervescent.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, that is exactly what it feels.

[Guest D]

Like talking about it. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, I don't love being super fangirly just because I feel like once I get fangirly, I stopped being. I stopped doing critical analysis and I'm just like, yeah, yeah. But, you know, in a way, it's. It is a joyful show, and I don't want to take away that from it as I, as I, like, do these deep dives.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

It's just. It's just love. There's so much love in it, so much intelligence in it. And for every, like, again, like, every, like, small note I have, it doesn't take away from all the things I love about it.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And it also, like, I don't know it. There are Some pieces of writing where I walk away and I'm like, I can't touch that. I want. I, I like that. Don't inspire me to write like, it's the Fleabag. Season 2 is not in my spark file because it is so perfect.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're like, well, it's such a masterpiece. Every time I watch it, I'm like.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I can't so good.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, I can't touch this.

[Guest D]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

And it cripples me for, like, it paralyzes me for three weeks.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't write. I, I could feel inspired with title the show because while it is incredible, it is not like this untouchable masterpiece from like, well, I could never touch that. I'm like, oh, no. For everything that I'm like, oh, that's brilliant. Like, oh, that. That's something I'm not sure if I think totally works. What would I do differently? Which then becomes its own thing. And I'm sure, you know, Jeff and Hunter have their own shows that do that for them.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's sort of the beauty of the snake eating its own tail. And that is theater in general of the, of the content that creates the content, which will create the content, which create the content which I love.

[Guest D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I look at your videos and I go, how would I do differently?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Yeah, I'm sure that's my job.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I think I would be thinner.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

If I, if I have made a creative choice, I would just choose to be thinner.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You know, I think if I were you, I would be thinner.

[Matt Koplik]

I think I would just work really hard to a better.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God, that is so rich. That is so rich.

[Matt Koplik]

It is rich. I'm just dragging everybody dragon drag.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Drag us.

[Matt Koplik]

But listen, everybody drags me. It's fine. I, I, I love it when people come and slip in my DMs. I'm like, so who do you think you are first having these opinions? And I'm like, I am me.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I am playing me.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I am playing stuck in a show.

[Matt Koplik]

Where I am playing me. Tyler, this has been.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God, what a joy.

[Matt Koplik]

So glorious.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

An absolute joy. Thank you for agreeing because you fully did not give me the option for title show. But I was like, I unfortunately am going to need to sort of add to the write in ballot.

[Matt Koplik]

But how title of show of you to see the options and go, no, no, I want to, I want to carve my own.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm going to carve my own path.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And the sun foster in me. Said, trust your gut and say yes.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Guest D]

But.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

And I did.

[Matt Koplik]

And now I have a new hobby. Trolling you.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Trolling me. How lucky am I?

[Matt Koplik]

I love it. You're very lucky. Yeah. I also want to say, everybody, let's not drag Tyler for being unfortunate to have invites to shows. I've also had invites to shows. I don't mean to throw you under the bus.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Although it's easy. You are very thin. I've also. I. The night you saw Parade, I was also invited to Parade.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Like, come on. See, it happens.

[Matt Koplik]

I think if I had.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's the biggest perk. If you want to start making content, just know that that could. Could happen.

[Matt Koplik]

You can start getting invited through things. Listen, the day after we record this, I might be going to a fun event in Soho that I was invited to because of social media.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, tomorrow. Yeah, I know what you're.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. I know you know what it is.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But I can't go. So I'm going to a different event.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sure. I'm sure you're going to a fancier event.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Hardly. Just an event that I was like. I said yes to this first, but it's fancier. Maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Listen, you are getting recognized at Parade, and I'm getting recognized at Titanium.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Hey, you know what?

[Matt Koplik]

I'm just saying, one of them is Ben Flat Broadway, and the other one was under a Grasside's, so.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You're so right about that.

[Matt Koplik]

One day I will get recognized at the Marriott Marquis.

[Guest D]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know why I'm doing there.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

One more time.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's what. That's what it is.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw her.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Me too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So I've got nothing else to say.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's. Let's. Let's find a way to close this out. I'm sure anyone who's listening to this knows where to find you. But if you want people to find you, where can you. They find you?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

You can find me on social media. I'm on TikTok and Instagram at Tyler Joseph Ellis. Just my whole name.

[Matt Koplik]

The whole name. If you want. If you want to find me. I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling, if you like. The podcast can give us a nice rating. Nice little five stars. It's been a minute since we got our last review.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Do you read them aloud to the class? I do. Oh, my God. Even if they're mean, they haven't been mean yet. Oh, okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, okay. I've got. I Mean, I've gotten. I think. I think I've only gotten like two one star ratings. But those people. Those people. Homophobic, Very homophobic. I have a feeling I know who one of those people was.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

But the tea.

[Matt Koplik]

The tea. But they didn't write reviews. They just did the one star and called it a day.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, that's so lazy.

[Matt Koplik]

It is. But we've gotten.

[Guest D]

We've.

[Matt Koplik]

Every review has been. Either has been five, I think one four star, but five. They've been very lovely. The people who choose to listen to this podcast have written some fucking awesome reviews.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I read them aloud and then I in post put the light on the Piazza Overture underneath it.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Before Kelly comes in because I can't compete with that voice.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. Yeah, she's just in the overture singing.

[Matt Koplik]

She just. Kelly. Kelly Overture. Hera. That's not a good one. But it's. Well, I could think of. That's it, I guess. Tyler, we close out every episode with a Broadway diva. Who would you like to have us.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Close out today with any Broadway diversity diva? My choosing.

[Matt Koplik]

Of your choosing.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

We're pro choice here.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I know. I. I forgot. We're going with Carol Channing. Oh, God.

[Guest D]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

I wish, I really wish that there was like some recording of Carol Channing singing in quotation marks, some song where like, you want a voice but you just get Carol Channing.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I'm sure that exists.

[Matt Koplik]

Nobody go, that's really good.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's really good.

[Matt Koplik]

Is you gonna rename my parade?

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

That's. Oh, my God, people. I wasn't sure. I said she's done.

[Matt Koplik]

That hasn't. Well, no. Streisand.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Maybe I could just hear it.

[Matt Koplik]

Streisand did her show, but she's never done a Streisand show.

[Guest D]

That Streisand woman.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, I'm sorry, Carol, you belt a D for 19 seconds. Oh, you can't because you're dead. Okay.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God. No, but we're ending with Carol Channing.

[Matt Koplik]

We're going to end with Carol Cheney. Great. Join us next week for God knows what, because we've been doing this whole series out of order, but it will either be significant other or something else exciting. Yeah. If it's significant other, get ready for actual full blown tears.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I haven't actually, like, cried cried on this podcast yet. I've gotten like a little misty reading.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

So you're going to get there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I got a little misty reading some of those reviews. But I haven't full blown cried that that's absolutely gonna happen.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

That's what that show do to me.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I love me. It's great.

[Guest D]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Anyway, but that's it. Have a great rest of your week, guys. And yeah, take us away, I guess. Carol. Bye.

[Tyler Joseph Ellis]

I made the right call. I knew I was like?

[Billy]

There's something in the tone of a saxophone? That makes me do a little wiggle all my own?

[Matt Koplik]

Cause I'm a J?

[Billy]

Yes, baby? Full of jazz boharmony? That walk the dog and ball the.

[Matt Koplik]

Jack that caused all the talk? Is just a copy of the way I naturally walk? Cause I'm a jazz baby? Little jazz baby, that's me?