Tony Award Snubs (w/ Ben Rimalower)

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown: "Tony Award Snubs" (w/ Ben Rimalower)

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Ben Rimalower
Release Date: June 1, 2023

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Episode Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown is a deep dive into the world of Tony Award "snubs"—those legendary performances, creatives, and shows that, for reasons sometimes baffling and sometimes political, did not make the Tony nominations cut. Host Matt Koplik teams up with actor/writer/podcaster Ben Rimalower for a passionate, foul-mouthed, and encyclopedic tour through Broadway’s overlooked excellence, blending hot takes, juicy behind-the-scenes tidbits, and robust theater geekery. They pull from personal favorites and widely debated omissions stretching from the 1950s to today, all while bringing their idiosyncratic charisma and plenty of four-letter words.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Constitutes a “Snub”?

• Matt’s philosophy: He only considers something a true "snub" if he can envision someone to swap out (“I try not to go too hard on them unless I can think of someone who was nominated that I would probably replace.”) [05:34]
• Both agree that going deeper into history makes it easier to “play God” with nominations, versus recent years where the wounds are fresher.

2. Ben’s Podcast & Broadway Memory Flubs

• Ben shares hilarious interactions on his own Sondheim podcast, including being "gaslighted" by James Lapine about Ellen Foley in Into the Woods:
  • “James Lapine gaslighting me is the best thing that happened to my career in 2022.” [04:41]
• Matt references the unreliability of theatrical oral history and memory, highlighting that “no one person can really be an authority.” [04:10]

3. Recent and Personal Snubs

Rachel Bay Jones in Pippin (2013)

• Ben’s “never recovered from this” snub, and both agree Victoria Clark’s Cinderella slot could have been hers. [07:44–09:36]
• “I thought Rachel did such a wonderful job with the role of Catherine. That is a part that has often sort of blended into the scenery, and she really found a way in there…” —Matt [08:36]

Amy Spanger (Kiss Me Kate) and Sheri Renee Scott (Aida) (2000)

• Both omitted from Best Featured Actress while others from their shows were recognized: “It’s especially snobby because [Spanger’s] the only principal...not nominated.” —Matt [11:11]
• They'd both replace Laura Benanti (Swing) and Anne Hampton Callaway (Swing) to slot them in.
• Reflection on “career nominations”—i.e., Benanti’s early noms anticipating future prominence [14:27–17:21]

Anna Harada in Avenue Q (2004)

• “In some ways, the heart and soul of Avenue Q” —Ben [18:17]
• Matt unpacks the difficulty of the role’s racial coding: “It’s a really difficult role...go too far and it does become racist. But the way she was able to handle the comedy was really masterful.” [19:23]

Chip Zien in Into the Woods (1988)

• Ben: “Iconic as the Baker...maybe one of my favorite male musical theater performances ever. Not nominated.” [32:12]
• Matt notes “the Baker has always been an unsung role in that show until recently.” [32:43]

Danielle Ferland (Little Red) Snub, Same Year

• Matt: “She was nominated at the drama desks and outer critics, but not for a Tony.” [33:53]
• Ben notes bizarre double nominations from the “museum-piece” Cabaret revival that could have made space for Ferland. [34:44]

Stephanie Mills in The Wiz (1975)

• Not even nominated: “We've got the hit of the year with this tiny dynamo of a babe singing for her life…” —Matt [78:48]
• They note how both race and age may have influenced the snub.

Isaia Johnson in The Color Purple (2016 Revival)

• Matt: “A role that is near impossible. And yet he found a way...”
• Would swap him in for Christopher Jackson (Hamilton), citing Jonathan Groff and Daveed Diggs as stronger presences. [93:07–94:24]

4. Historic and Technical Snubs

She Loves Me—Best Score (1964)

• Not nominated: “They did not nominate She Loves Me: Stupid. It's stupid.” —Matt [21:28]

Chita Rivera in West Side Story (1958)

• “Truly the number one of all time...iconic role, iconic show, did not get nominated.” [62:50]
• Ben and Matt break down the “domino effect” of Tony wins and losses cascading through future years. [64:31]

Barbara Cook in Candide (1957)

• Did not get a nomination for “Glitter and Be Gay”—widely regarded as one of the most difficult and iconic songs in Broadway history. [66:47]
• Matt: “If you're in doubt, y'all listen to her Glitter and Be Gay. It is...still the best version of that song.”

Non-Performance Technical Snubs

• Matt suggests Bruce Coughlin’s orchestrations for Wild Party and George C. Wolfe’s direction should have been recognized over, for example, the Music Man 2000 orchestrations. [48:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tony Philosophy:
  “I don’t want us to use technical savvy. I want this to be a sea change!” —Ben, on hacking the Tony website to retroactively nominate Rachel Bay Jones [09:36]

• On Career Resilience:
  “Even if you do [take away a nomination], Ben, [Victoria Clark] can look in the mirror and say, I'm still Victoria Clark. And that is enough for her and me.” —Matt [10:44]

• On the Tony Voter Process (Industry Tea):
  “It’s just old, drunk, blind, rich, white people who vote for shows they didn’t even see...not based on actual lived experience.” —Ben [22:00]

• On Carousel (1994), Michael Hayden & Sally Murphy:
  “That it would not have soared as much as it did if it weren’t for Michael and Sally, and they should have been recognized.” —Matt [74:28]

• On Forbidden Broadway & Fandom:
  Extended riff on favorite Forbidden Broadway sketches and parodies.
  “My favorite Patty impression is Tony De Buono in that ‘Anything Goes’ one.” —Ben [30:08]

• On the Emotional Stakes:
  “I have separation anxiety. I have insecure attachments. I have abandonment issues. And Lori Beechman should have been here. I needed her here. I need her now.” —Ben [59:11]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-------| | 00:02 | Matt’s intro, setting the “snubs” theme | | 04:41 | James Lapine “gaslighting” anecdote | | 07:44 | Rachel Bay Jones in Pippin (2013) snub discussion | | 11:11 | Amy Spanger & Sheri Renee Scott (2000) discussion | | 18:17 | An Harada in Avenue Q commentary | | 21:28 | She Loves Me best score snub | | 32:12 | Chip Zien in Into the Woods | | 33:53 | Danielle Ferland snub | | 62:50 | Chita Rivera (Anita, West Side Story) | | 66:47 | Barbara Cook (Candide) | | 72:10 | Sally Murphy & Michael Hayden (Carousel) | | 78:00 | Stephanie Mills (The Wiz) | | 93:07 | Isaiah Johnson (Color Purple) nominated over Hamilton supporting actor | | 96:06 | John Doyle’s Color Purple work and reputation | | 99:27 | Closing out with Chita Rivera tribute (song) |

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Additional Snub Highlights

Other Names & Roles Mentioned:

• Loretta Devine (Dreamgirls)
• Mandy Gonzalez (In the Heights)
• John Cameron Mitchell (Secret Garden)
• Dorothy Loudon (Noises Off)
• Leah DeLaria (On the Town)

Musings on the “Domino Effect” of Tony Choices:
Ben and Matt analyze how Tony choices, influenced by career momentum and “makeup” awards, can shape—or misshape—Broadway history. [64:31]

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Episode Tone & Style

Matt and Ben’s bantering is sharp, hyper-referential, profane, but always affectionate toward their subject. The show balances encyclopedic knowledge with irreverent humor. They “nerd out” on categories (“I’m such a fan of Ann Harada, but…”), dig into Tony voting arcana, and aren’t afraid to throw shade at productions or performances that didn’t deserve their recognition.

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Ending: Diva Dedication & Next Up

The show closes by playing Chita Rivera, symbolically giving her the flowers she never received for West Side Story:

“Let's give Ms. Chita Rivera our closeout since she didn't get the goddamn nomination for West Side Story.” —Matt [99:42]

Next week: Final Tony predictions episode to coincide with the 2023 awards.

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For More:

• Listen to the full episode on Broadway Breakdown’s Podcast page
• Follow Matt Koplik on Instagram @mattkoplik
• Find Ben Rimalower on social media @benrimalower and check out his podcast “Giants in the Sky” on Broadway Podcast Network

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Transcript

[A]

Think of the prestige.

[B]

Think of the respect.

[A]

No, no, no. Think of the Tony. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. We are currently in our Tony History and Tony Prediction series as we gear up to the big June 11 day. And with me, oh, I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated and sometimes the most forgetful of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is friend of the pod, alum of the pod. You know him, you love him. He's got a new podcast with mama. Broadway podcast network, Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and the Pine Went into the Woods. Please welcome back Ben Rimmelauer. Hi, Ben.

[B]

Hi, Matt. I'm so happy to be here with you.

[A]

I'm so happy to have you back. And so much has changed since you were last on the podcast when you did Pal Joey. I've been put on the Broadway Podcast Network. You're on the Broadway Podcast Network. You have a new podcast now where you've spoken to James lapine and Howard McGillan and Joanna Gleason.

[B]

I certainly have. And the funny thing is, as long ago as it was that we were talking, I think it. I was already working on it. It just took a really long time.

[A]

Well, so I've listened to the first three episodes because you just dropped the whole whole bunch today after we've. As we recorded. Yes, I listened to your first episode with Senor Lapine, book writer and original director of into the Woods. And then Chip Zion and Danielle Furland. I gotta say, Danielle remembers a whole bunch about that history and it's why we love her. I won't say which person is guilty of this, but there is one person where you give very, very well researched. You know what you're talking about. Like, you drop a historical tidbit and.

[B]

Someone goes, talk to me about this. And you're not the only one. It was James Lapine. I'll call him out.

[A]

Oh, we'll call him out.

[B]

We were talking about the development of into the woods, how Ellen Foley played the witch at the Old Globe Playhouse in their pre Broadway production and that she was the final witch in the Broadway run. And I know this as many people do. It's verifiable. Now, we all know IBD can sometimes have certain slight inaccuracies, but, like, they're not just blatantly wrong about things quite so like much. But this was verified in a Million ways. I have playbills from ebay with her name on the. I interviewed her. I talked about her run.

[A]

I think there. Yeah, there's. There's footage on YouTube from her brought from the end of her Broadway 100%.

[B]

Comparing and contrasting how it was at the Old Globe, her doing the number, and then, you know, stay with me on Broadway. And so James Lapine gaslighted me and said that, no, no, Ellen Foley never did it on Broadway. And I tried to give him like, a. Oh, well, maybe it's just on. Maybe she was like, just. Because, you know, sometimes IBD will be like a real nerd about it. And they'll be like, replacements include. And you're like, that's not a replacement. She did two shows when so. And so had, like, laryngitis. That's not, you know, so I was willing to, like, give Mr. Lapine the benefit of the doubt, but he wouldn't even let me have that. And, of course, he was dead wrong. And the thing that my friend reminded him of was on. I don't know if you. You're the person that would get this obscure reference on Larry King Live when he had Donna Murphy and Mandy Patinkin around the time that passion opened on Broadway. And Donna, of course, sang, you know, I read or wish I could forget you or whatever. They were talking. But Mandy had just released some. His latest Sondheim solo album or whatever. And Mandy was about to sing, I think, but Buddies Blues, something from Follies, and Larry King goes. And now Mandy's gonna sing Buddy's Blues from Follies. Follies. Big hit. And you just see Mandy go like.

[A]

Sure was. Sure was, Larry.

[B]

Yeah. So that's my inspiration.

[A]

Well, this is why I like your podcast and why you're sort of going through many different people who had different roles over the course of the show's life. Because no one person can really be an authority. Everyone's memory, even if they were there, is. Can be faulty. So for James Lapine to say so to double down on. No, she never double down. Double down. And it's like, well, James, I'm sorry to have to tell you this. You are wrong. You're. You're boldly wrong. So I love that. So I'm glad that I'm not the only one, because I was going to try to, like, beat her on the bush and be respectful.

[B]

I've gotten so much attention. Honestly, James Lapine gaslighting me is the best thing that happened to my career in 2022.

[A]

It's John Travolta saying, Adele, Dazeem you are.

[B]

Thank you. That is what it is. I am Idina Menzel.

[A]

And on. On the subject of flubs, we are going to transition into wonderful, brilliant segue this. Listen, this is what I do know for a semi living. I. From flubs to snubs. Ben and I are going to talk about some of our favorite most egregious Tony Award snubs. People who were denied nominations that absolutely should have been. Now, obviously the listeners are very aware that I've got two snubs that are in the kitty. They're absolutely going to have to be spoken of. I will do my best to talk about them for 90 seconds because we. They've heard me talk about them enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I will say the thing about snubs, and I don't know if you want to go into this, you know, down this rabbit hole with me, but the thing about snubs is for me, I try not to go too hard on them unless I can think of someone who was nominated that I would probably replace with the person I thought should have been nominated. And it's not to deny anyone their. Their acclaim, but it's sort of me going like, I think we could have. We could have switched this around, though. The only thing I'll say for this year that I've been pretty open about is sweet the current revival of Sweeney Todd getting nominated for sound design, which is pretty unanimously, unanimously agreed upon by fans to not be good in its production. And it's the one nomination where I'm like, Tony's. We didn't have to do this. We could have given it to Parade or Kimberly or some Like It Hot.

[B]

Like the nominators even understand, like, what sound design is.

[A]

Well, there's supposed to be a sound designer in that group to be like, hey, guys, this is what we should be looking out for. But apparently not. Apparently they just pissed all over the sound design and said, fuck it.

[B]

But anyway is also one of those weird things where, like, depending on where you sit, you could think they did a better job or a worse job.

[A]

Yeah. So what? By this, all I'm going to say is, the further back in history we go, the more comfy I will be in saying who I would probably replace. Just because over the course of history, it's not like we can take away that person's nomination. It's less immediate.

[B]

So, Thomas, you're already starting from the defeated point of view. There's nothing we can do about this injustice. No, the people have the power. We can make these things happen. Rachel Bay Jones, Pippin. I don't care that they give her the award for Dear Evan Hansen. We can go back.

[A]

I can go back and I can rectify this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is how we build that car. And back to the future. What the fuck is it called?

[B]

Oh, the DeLorean.

[A]

DeLorean. I was about to say it's not the Mandalorian, but it is the DeLorean.

[B]

That's correct.

[A]

God damn. Okay, then why don't you start us off with one of your snubs?

[B]

Well, I have already said it. Rachel Bay Jones in Pippin, I thought was one of the most wonderful Broadway performances I've seen. And I actually. You brought up such a good point that I had been completely glossing over, which is, who would you take it away from? And so I'm looking at this list. That's Annaleigh Ashford and Kinky Boots. Well, the winner was Andrea Martin and Pippin. The other nominees were Annaleigh Ashford in Kinky Boots, Victoria Clark in Cinderella, Kayla Settle In Hands on a Hard Body, and Lauren Ward in Matilda. Now, I didn't see Matilda, and I've never been particularly a fan of Lauren Ward, but nonetheless, I would take it away from Victoria Clarke for Cinderella. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I did see Rebecca Luker and how much RIP she improved upon not only that performance, but the production was elevated with Rebecca Luker in the role.

[A]

I mean, we know how I feel about Vicky. I adore that. But, yeah, I probably would take it away from her, too, if. If I'm gonna give Victoria Clark a sort of. You took not much, and you made it. Good nomination. If I'm gonna give that to her, it's gonna be for Gigi, a show that I liked less than Cinderella. But I thought Vicki did more of a miracle with that role. I am a Lauren Ward fan partly because of Matilda, and so I'm glad you did not say, I'm gonna take it away from her. Yeah, I would. I would probably take out Victoria and put in Rachel Bay Jones. I agree with that. I thought Rachel did such a wonderful job with the role of Catherine. That is a part that has often sort of blended into the scenery, and she really found a way in there that made it so funny and engaging. She did such a great job with Average Ordinary Woman. Yeah. It was just. It was such a wonderful reinvention of the role, and I would have liked to have seen her get nominated. So, yes, we'll go into the Tony website and we'll hack it, and we'll say yes. Jones nominated.

[B]

I mean, she. No, I want it to be legit, Matt. I don't want us to use technical savvy. I want this to be a seat change.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Clark, do you think she would care, like, if you go to her house and there's like her Tony for Light in the Piazza and like, you know, who knows, maybe her Tony for Kimberly Akimbo and like she has other nominations, doesn't she?

[A]

She's got Light in the Piazza, Kimberly Akimbo, Cinderella, Gigi and Sister Actress.

[B]

Okay, so like she's got these two, like, what's the word? Flaccid nominations for Gigi and Sister Act. Is she really gonna care if you take away Cinderella? Like, like.

[A]

Yeah. Don't ask me to go inside the mind of an icon. I simply wouldn't be able to handle it. I think between the two, she probably be. Would be more willing to get rid of the Sister act nomination. But that's I think just based off of nothing like a dame. I think she had a worse time doing that show than Cinderella, but all.

[B]

The more that she should at least get a. How she suffered.

[A]

Exactly. You went through the. The war and here is your medal. There you go. You did it.

[B]

Jess, I'm.

[A]

Listen, I'm down for that. And I think Vicky is by no means going to be mad at you for taking one away because she, she, even, even if you do, Ben, she can look in the mirror and say, I'm still Victoria Clark. And that is enough for her and me. I'm going to go a little further back into history. We're going to stay in the century for a second. And I have two nominations. Should have absolutely. In the same category, no less.

[B]

Oh, wonk.

[A]

Yeah. Amy Spanger in Kiss Me Kate and Sheri Renee Scott in Aida.

[B]

Sherry Scott and Aida is on my list too. Very, very important point.

[A]

It's a. It's especially with Amy. It's especially snobby because she's the only principal of that production of Kiss Me Kate to not be nominated.

[B]

Marin, you obviously did not see that production.

[A]

It was so I mentioned it for a second in the last episode, but it was one of the greatest productions I've seen in my life. I was nine at the time and it still burned in my brain. And it's everyone. I loved Amy Spanger in it. It was her always true to you in my fashion was exceptional. I remember it so well. She was just so. I don't know everyone in that show.

[B]

It was wonderful production.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You didn't think Nancy Anderson was better on the dvd.

[A]

I mean, maybe I'm just competing with my nostalgic memory of Amy. What I liked about Amy was she did the. The bimbo thing without being cartoony, which made it funnier to me in the same way like Sharon Renee Scott does that same thing where she's playing somebody dumb. She doesn't play up the dumb, she plays up the earnestness. So the dumb actually is funnier. And that's what Amy did for me. Nancy was a bit more sort of like, howdy, bro. Which is not a bad take. I love that period.

[B]

Nancy. Nancy gives you like a gangster's mall. See?

[A]

Yeah. Which. And, and, and Amy was a little different from that. And both are very solid interpretations and Nancy is an exceptional talent. It was just Amy did. Was really great to me.

[B]

And even if, like in. What do you call it, the Wedding Singer, she was so good in that. But I remember being disappointed by her in Kiss Me Kate and then seeing it again when Janine Lamana had taken over and like so much more. And then of course, loving Nancy on the broadcast.

[A]

I wish I had seen Janine Lamana do it. I'm. You cannot be a gay and not love Janine Lamana, if only for the Maisie Laberta at all. Not maisie levered Gertrude McFuzz. What am I saying? Fuck me. But no again, I should probably go to Lincoln center library and watch that Kiss Me Kate again because I'm. I'm going off of a 24 year old memory. But it was a. That that season of seeing Marin and Amy in Kiss Me Kate and then Sheri and Heather in Aida was very formative for me. And so I wanted, I would like to have both of them in there and I would re. I would put them in over Laura Benanti and Anne Hampton Calloway for swinging.

[B]

Ah, yes. I mean, that was odd that they were both nominated for that show. I mean, the Anne Hampton Calloway one is hard to argue with because clearly they were like, she's a huge talent. She's hardly ever if ever again going to be on Broadway. And so we should nominate her to recognize it, you know, totally. But then also like. And they've been listening to, as we all had Liz Calloway and Hampton Calloway's album Sibling Revelry where Liz was bragging about her Tony nomination and they felt that Ann needed something for the sequel, you know. But like, but Laura Benanti, it's like, come on, guys, she's Going to be in so many shows. You don't need to nominate her for Swing. Like Sherry, the nomination.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like it was sort of premature because Laura had just come off of doing Sound of Music where she really kind of made a huge splash for a short period of time in that role. And so young. And then, correct me if I'm wrong, was Wonderful Town at Encores earlier that year?

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, so it's sort of, they were the same like theater season, but I.

[A]

Think it came out before Swing.

[B]

Well, no, because Wonderful Town was in May of 2000. But if there was the 2000 Tonys, then swing had to be in the fall of 99.

[A]

Huh. So I guess she took like a week off to do Wonderful Town and then went back into Swing.

[B]

Was Swing still running at the Tonys?

[A]

That's what, yeah, Swing, I think ran for a little over a year. Hang on. This is where IBDB comes into.

[B]

I'm just gonna, like, I'm so old school. I'm like, well, there's no way to know. I'm like, James, I was about to.

[A]

Say, let's James Lapine this and just make up a history. Okay, so here we go. Swing opened in December of 99 and closed in January of 2001. Whoa.

[B]

So I guess she, she might have left for good.

[A]

She might have.

[B]

But it was definitely may of 2000. I remember so well, because I did not get to see Wonderful Town of Encores because that was the exact same weekend we were doing Sweeney Todd at the Philharmonic. And it was very much like the two competing, like glittery concerts that week.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, talk about a jam packed week. Because that Encores Wonderful Town was a huge deal as well. That was, you know, that, that really kind of rebranded Donna Murphy back as a comedic actress for the first time since before Passion. Yeah. It was May 4th to May 7th of 2000. You know, Laura, I, I, I would guess she went out of Swing for a week to do Wonderful Town and then went back in. And that was a, and that Wonderful Town is a huge deal.

[B]

So, so, yeah, like Encores to Broadway transfer Delay, I guess.

[A]

Well, so because there are years.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Before it took four years. Yeah. Was. Well, how long was Apple Tree? Apple Tree, I think was three. Yeah, yeah. Apple Tree and Wonderful Town probably have the longest. And then after that would be maybe like Finian. No, Finian's Rainbow was from spring to fall. Yeah, it's a, it's, it's an interesting, it's interesting history. Point is our Point about all of this is it sort of feels in this time that the Tonys are like, we are investing in you, Laura Benanti, and we are giving you this nomination for doing a solid job in a solid show. But it's more that you've done amazing work and two things we couldn't nominate you for. So take this nomination and run with it.

[B]

Take this nomination.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Take these broken wings, some 80s power ballad. You weren't born.

[A]

I'm famously very young, but little did the Tonys know how many times they'd be nominating Laura Benanti after this.

[B]

Yeah, I know. So that's the thing we're gonna have. Honestly, like, the Vicki Clark thing really depends upon her generosity of spirit. But, like, there's a decent chance we could convince the nominators in 2000, like, be like, benanti's gonna be in so many shows, you guys. And they'll do it.

[A]

And they will do it. Absolutely. Yeah. And it'll be like. And look how long it's gonna take you to finally nominate Sheri Renee Scott. Do it now.

[B]

Ah, yeah. You owe her.

[A]

It's. It's so stupid. She only has three, and one of them is for writing. I mean, they're all wonderful nominations, but I'm like, she should have five by now. Give me another one. Ban.

[B]

Okay, Well, I mean, the one that is Would been my go to off the top of my head always is Anna Prada and Avenue Q. I mean, I must have seen that performance 10 times, and she was just. I mean, she's always so wonderful, and it's so gratifying how her reach has expanded. I mean, like, when people were sort of, like, memeing her for, like, her even before memes, really. But, you know, people just sort of. Fans were, like, kind of obsessed with her being on Smash, and it was like, you guys, it's a really small thing part. Nobody cares. Like, stop trying to make an Harada on Smash happen. Like, I notice her too, because, like, I'm a fan, but, like, she's not one of the stars of the show, you know? But, like, now, like, it's like the prophecy has at last been realized with Shmiga Dune. I mean, Anne Harada is just, like, this, like, TV personality, and. And it's. It's. It still doesn't make up for her being not nominated when she was just really, you know, in some ways, the heart and soul of Avenue Q.

[A]

And it's a really difficult role to make happen because it is the racial Dynamics of it is such a fine line. You go too far in one direction and it does become racist. But the way that she was able to handle the comedy was really masterful. And it's one of those performances you don't realize how hard it is until you see someone else try to do it and fail. Yeah, yeah. This was a. I. I thought about this category, actually, because I thought of an Harada. I also thought of Carol Shelley and Wicked, which is, you know, one of those performances that makes you go, do I want to nominate this or do I just really like Carol Shelley? And.

[B]

But that's valid, you know, that is like, you know, why we theater.

[A]

Yeah. And I wouldn't nominate her, but I do want to give a special shout out to Michelle Federer in Wicked for taking the role of Nessarose, which is such a nothing role and really being special in it. H. That original company of Wicked, Ben, they. That cast was. They had good actors in there.

[B]

They truly did. Although famously, I did not like Jill Gray in the show.

[A]

Most of us did not. It took other wizards for people to like. I think I saw George Hearn do it after Joel.

[B]

George Hearn, I'm sure he was so great.

[A]

He was. What I liked about Joel in the role, and it took me a while to recognize what made it kind of work, is that, I mean, Joel Gray is just such a likable presence on stage. He's so impish and non threatening.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so when you realize just how much of an evil douche the wizard actually is, it's hard.

[B]

You.

[A]

You get conflicted because you're like, but this little tiny man, how can he be so evil? And it's. He is.

[B]

That's very interesting. You know, I. I found him a little too impish, smarmy. But. But I. But that's a good angle.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, listen, it's. This is the Amy Spanger situation all over again for us. We. We keep coming back to these moments, Ben, where you and I just butt heads and it's very mean and nasty and 30.

[B]

It's awkward.

[A]

It's so awkward. How dare we have a very civilized conversation about our different tastes.

[B]

We are such a good role model for America.

[A]

We are. I want to throw out a non performance nomination for a second. Going even further back because this one is so stupid. I can't believe the Tonys didn't do this. Best score. Yes. They did not nominate she Loves Me Stupid. It's stupid.

[B]

They have no taste.

[A]

They nominated High Spirits, the musical version of Blythe. Spirit that no one talks about and no one knows.

[B]

I mean, the Tonys I, I get, I hope I, I, you probably know more than I do about the process. And I assume, like, with everything else, it's, like, been slightly, like, read, like thought in the last few years, which is refreshing. But I feel like for so many years it's just like old, drunk, deaf, blind, rich, white people who, like, vote for shows that they didn't even see and like, just like, it's just like, political and like, not based on actual, like, lived experience.

[A]

It is very tricky, for sure. I mean, yes, they have. They changed the process of nominations in the mid-90s because it used to be on a ranking system and I don't. And I think they, every decade or so, they expand the nominating body so it's less egregious voting. Who knows? I, I know a few Tony voters. I've come to know some nominators from the past and present. And there are those who do try to lead with their taste, but they'll tell me their tastes and I'll sit there and I'll go. It's that Willy Wonka meme where I'm.

[B]

Like, yeah, well, aren't they the league? Mostly members of the league.

[A]

I don't know. It's. They, I know that they try to. They try to cover as many fields in the theater as possible. They try to have not just producers but actors and writers and orchestrators and designers and stage managers and whatnot. I think when you're a Tony voter, you stay a Tony voter. When you're a nominator, you only get three years and then you have to wait like 25 years before you can apply again. Which I, I appreciate that because I don't know how. How that used to be. But this year, okay, this 1964 Tonys are nominees for best score a very big year. They are hello, Dolly, Funny Girl, high spirits and 110 in the shade. Hello, Dolly. Our winner, Funny Girl. No. 90, 80 of a great score. 20 kind of clunkers. 110 in the shade. 100, a solid eight. I will let that stay. High Spirits can literally go fuck itself. And on top of all of this, I would argue she Loves Me has the best score of all four.

[B]

I mean, I, I see how you get there. Like, it's hard to, like, argue with hello Dolly, but, like, but it's crazy that she Loves Me not is not nominated. But now just forgive my ignorance. Was Fiddler on the Roof before or after she Loves Me?

[A]

It was After.

[B]

See, that explains it because they're really just. It's such a club. And it probably was even more of a club back then because you look at. I was like. Because in my mind, for a second, I was like, wait, did, like, Noel Howard write High Spirits is not crazy? And then I look, no, no, Coward didn't write High Spirits. It was just based on the Noel Coward play. The score was by Hugh Martin. And Hugh Martin wrote, what, like the Trolley Song and like, meet me in St. Louis and shit. And it's just like some old person that they were familiar with. Whereas they're like Bach and Harnick. Who are these crazy kids? You know, two years. The irony is that two years later, they're like the biggest, like, most, like, important Jews in theater history, but, like, they were still just not accepted in the club then.

[A]

Yeah, well, so I'm. I. Obviously we go in the historical context. Dolly, you can't argue with. It's the big hit of the season and it's critically beloved. Funny Girl, also big hit, not necessarily critically loved, but everyone agreed that the score was strong. Bach and Harnick, they at least had Fiorello under their belt. They had that. That musical win in Pulitzer, but it wasn't such a ginormous hit that they were in the big leagues. Fiddler is really what made them a list.

[B]

But commerce. I mean, filler on the roof. That score is like a populist score.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Ciarello is like, you know, Littleton.

[A]

Littleton Box was not covered by.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Patty Duke.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

But. But I mean, she. I. Even historically speaking in that context, she Loves Me was super beloved by critics. And you would think that they would try to bolster it at the Tonys, and they did. They got a musical nomination, but it didn't do as well at the Tonys that year as it should have. I mean, Barbara Cook wasn't even nominated for Amalia, which is crazy to me.

[B]

Crazy to me.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I've. I have another Barbara Cook in here that we'll get to in a second. But I mean, the leading actress in the musical category, Beck, it's still only four. They don't expand to five until, I think the year 2000. And looking at the four nominees, I. I do wonder who I would kick out, because we have Carol Channing and Barbra Streisand, which you can't. You cannot argue with that. Inga Swenson in One Hand in the Shade, that's. Lizzie is a major, major dramatic role. And I. I do love her. Singing in that. And then Beatrice Lilly is just. It is an icon coming back on Broadway in this big musical. And from what I understand, perfectly cast. But Barbara Amalia is just. It's such a killer role. And Barbara Cook, you know, it's. It's. It is difficult to.

[B]

To figure it out, but that one's a conundrum. But the score thing is kind of done. Like, yeah, they.

[A]

Because they do get nominated for musical. They get nominated for featured actor for Jack Cassidy, who wins. Hal Prince does get nominated for director. They get nominated for.

[B]

I mean, am I allowed to say I don't like 110 in the shade?

[A]

You're allowed to say that. I don't love it. I like the score, though.

[B]

Like, I. What? I mean, like, Old Maid. Like, I don't like that. It just seems like a lot of, like, Soprano yelling.

[A]

You're not wrong. But she is angry.

[B]

I. Liberty Jibbit. No, that's one of the cut songs. What's.

[A]

I love? I love simple little things. I love.

[B]

Is it really a little like Leslie Ann Warren duet?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would just throw that whole thing in the river.

[A]

Ben is coming in with the hottest of takes, and I'm not mad about it. On that note, let's take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread of the people. And we're back. Okay, wait.

[B]

Can I just say, you're so smart to do a break, and then you put the ad in there.

[A]

Yeah. That's how I have to do it now.

[B]

I'm, like, going through being like, I guess I could slip the ad in and nobody will notice.

[A]

Like, well, that's how I started it because I kept forgetting that I should take ad breaks, and I have to do the ad breaks. And the audio quality of an episode changes based off of how I'm recording it. Whether I'm doing it on Zoom with you or if I'm doing it in a studio or in person at my home, the audio quality changes. So when the commercial comes in, it can either be quieter than the episode or much louder than the episode. So I want to give the listeners fair warning that commercials come in through. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know if you've listened to any episodes since I've started doing the podcast on BPN, but my transitional music into the commercials is Patti LuPone and anything goes. Billy, I beg to Dip with you. You're at the top.

[B]

It's a great tribute.

[A]

It is. Although maybe after this year, I should go into the Forbidden Broadway.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Side note, what are some of your favorite forbidden Broadway sketches, Ben?

[B]

Well, I treasure all the Patti LuPone ones, obviously, but maybe if I had to choose one among all the patties. Well, my. I mean, it's hard to argue with that Christine Patti Patty class thing with, like, the extended sequence and all that, and she's so brilliant in it. But I really.

[A]

Hey, Andrew, thanks for the swimming pool.

[B]

It's so good you shot Mr. Mistopolis.

[A]

Oops. But. But I.

[B]

And as.

[A]

But.

[B]

But the best Patty impression, I think, is Tony De Buono in that Anything Goes one. And that. That whole volume, too, that has Cheetah Rita and Mandy is so. But also that. That. That Forbidden Broadway strikes back. That has the Patty class, has the Barry and Fran Weissler. You're the one that we want for the revival of Grease, like Infomercial and the Donna Murphy and Lou Diamond Phillips. The King and I is so genius. Shall we boink? And what's the other thing I'm obsessed with on that is the. Oh, the Mandy and Bernadette. It's two parts. It's the Mandy and Bernadette. So Miscast and Kiss Me Kate and then the Liza and Jerry Lewis. So miscasting Kiss Me Kate and it's just all gold. Those are.

[A]

It's great. I'm a really big fan of Forbidden Broadway. Cleans up its act with the Titanic medley with the ragtime sequence. I also love the Matthew Bourne Swan Lake.

[B]

Oh, yeah. The Matthew Bourne Swan Lake was so. I remember seeing that, like, at the theater, like in. Whatever. Where. I guess it was at the. Not the. Where. The Stardust downstairs from where the Stardust Diner is. It was. I forget what the venue was called.

[A]

I think they literally called it the Stardust Diner Theater or something. It was very specific.

[B]

I just remember seeing that and, like, laughing my ass off. And it was also. They were really hot. It was like Daniel Reichard and, like, Ed Stottenmeyer and they were wearing tutus.

[A]

Yeah. Wearing the. The similar Matthew Bourne Swan Lake outfits. It's. It's just so good. I love so much of that. Forbidden Broadway cleans up its act. I also love the Jekyll and Hyde one and the way they pitched Jekyll and Hyde, which is. You want to see Les Miserables, but you can't pronounce the title. You want to see Phantom of the Opera, but Phantom is sold out, so Come see, That's just as dimly lit.

[B]

Spot on.

[A]

So good. Moving on. Okay, so I did my she loves me. You read 110 of the shade for filth, and luckily for you, 110 of the shade's probably never coming back to Broadway, so you don't have to have that awkward interaction with it at a. At a party.

[B]

I'm so lucky.

[A]

All right, give me. Give me one of yours, babe.

[B]

Okay. I mean, I hate to just go to my, like, top take, but I feel like I just want to get into it because working on my podcast, Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and the Pymon into the Woods, I have just come even deeper into my already lifelong love and appreciation for Chip Zion in everything, always. But really, I mean, just iconic as the Baker and maybe one of my favorite male musical theater performances in history. Not nominated.

[A]

It is a shame. The Baker has always been an unsung role in that show until recently. And he is so good in it.

[B]

I mean, the revival had. You know, Neil Patrick Harris was great. Brian Darcy James was great. Sebastian Arsalis is amazing. But. But it's been badly cast. I mean, I do not mind telling you that Dennis o' Hare in the park was a disgrace.

[A]

Sure was. I hated that revival in general.

[B]

I loved that production. I thought Denis o' Hara and Amy Adams were garbage and just to be shot in the dark alley somewhere. And. And I love Steven derosa, but I did not particularly like into the woods and the.

[A]

No, I mean, I. That revival of into the woods has a special place in my heart because it was my first time seeing it live and being as young and impressionable as I was. The design of it was very impressive to me, so I liked it at the time. But as I've gotten older, I've become less enthused by it. And he is one of them. But yes, speaking of that original into the Woods, Daniel Furland for featured actress in a musical is one of my snubs, especially because she was nominated for Precursors before this and then didn't get in at the Tonys.

[B]

Wait, nominated for Precursors for, like, Drama.

[A]

Desk and I think outer critics circle.

[B]

Listen to you with the lingo. Let's get 1988 Tony's. So looking at Danielle and featured Actress, you'd think it would actually be the other way around, because to be nominated for featured in the Drama Desks, she had to compete with Joanna Gleason. But Joanna Gleason was bumped up to lead for the Tonys, so that should have made it Easier for Danielle to get a Tony nomination, not harder. But she. They gave two. I mean, this is ridiculous. Two nominations for featured actress in a musical in 1988 for the revival of Cabaret with Joel Gray. Allison Reed as Sally Bowles, who like, I know she's famous now from like High School Musical, but I think we all remember how bad she was in the film of A Chorus Line.

[A]

Sure was.

[B]

I do not believe she could have been any good as Sally Bows.

[A]

There is a full video of that revival on YouTube. You can watch it and please, you do not have.

[B]

I've already stated Joel Gray.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You do not have to watch it in any way. She's not bad. She's perfectly fine. It's just that whole revival. Marvelous that she's not perfectly marvelous. That whole revival is just a museum piece because it's how Prince will preserving his original. It's Hal Prince had a grudge because the movie version came out and was such a sensation and everyone just assumed forever that was Cabaret. And so he brought it back in the 80s to be like, everyone remember that I did this first. And it just is not.

[B]

Wasn't as interesting. I mean, also like I. But I do Stan Regina Resnick. I mean, just on that City Opera Night music video as Madame Marmont. So I will not quibble with her frog.

[A]

She should be in there. Also, Sally is a leading role. It's not. It's not a featured performance.

[B]

But that is like. I mean, the Tonys has been such a hot mess about who's a lead and who's not a lead for so long. It's like, absolutely. And then I guess Letty Khumalo and Seraphina. I don't have any information to say whether that was. Deserve it or not. Deserve.

[A]

No. I. We only. I only have the Tony performance where she doesn't sing. She just stands there and smiles and it's a nice smile. But yeah, of the four, I would.

[B]

Say the winner was Judy K. Who, you know, say what you will and I've said it, but she was good in Phantom.

[A]

She was good in Phantom. And that was. That was a. It sounds crazy to say because she was still in the midst of her career, but it was a bit of a career win. It was. You couldn't. We didn't get to nominate you for on the 20th century. You've been around now for a while. Everyone loves you. You're in a big old hit and this is such an easy thing to give you. And you can tell that that's how everyone feels. Because when Nell Carter announces her name and the audience cheers for her, you'd think that she was, you know, tearing up the boards as Carlotta. And it's more that. That Phantom is such a big hit and everyone loves Judy K. It was the two things combined, I will say, that year, they. It's a. It's a killer Best Actress year that year. It's Patty Joanna, Judy Kuhn McCunesey and Alison Fraser for Romance. Romance. That foursome. I. I could fuck with that foursome.

[B]

I mean, when you think with the fact that those four women beat out Bernadette Peters and Into the woods and Sarah Brightman in Phantom of the Opera, any great love is lost over Sarah Brim's performance in Phantom. And obviously, like, we all have a lot of different theories about why Bernadette wasn't nominated, but just the fact that that was the field and these were the nominations. Yeah, I mean, but Chip Zion, who did he not get nominated in favor of? Obviously, Michael Crawford won.

[A]

Scott Bakula for Romance. Romance. I'm going off the top of my head, by the way.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Bakula for Romance. Romance. Michael Crawford for Phantom. Don't tell me, don't tell me, don't tell me.

[B]

David Carroll for Chess, who by all accounts was everything.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that voice singing anthem. Here we are. And then who's the. Oh, I think Howard McGillan for anything goes.

[B]

Yes. So, I mean, my take. And Allison Frazier would not appreciate me saying so, although maybe she would because she is a Chip Zion old timer. Like, I think Scott Bakula. Get out of there.

[A]

Yeah, probably. The thing is, a lot of these nominations, you wonder how much changes when. If we expanded it to five, 20 years earlier than we did, you know.

[B]

Yeah. That would.

[A]

Some of my snubs probably would be in there in the 90s for sure.

[B]

I mean, like. Yeah. Although Chip Zion also not. Not nominated for Falsettos, which is stupid.

[A]

Who was that year that. That was the year of Crazy for you and Jelly's Last Jam.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I know that Jonathan Kaplan for Falsettos was nominated for featured.

[B]

I mean, who. And he was wonderful and not just a kid actor. And I'm such a fan of his. Although he left the business, so really this should have said elsewhere, but who were the other nominations? Well, so we. Okay. He would have been featured. Yeah.

[A]

It's whoever won, I think one for that two piano revival of Most Happy Fella.

[B]

Yes. Scott Wara for Most Happy Fella. Jonathan Kaplan for Falsettos, like you said. Bruce Adler as Bella Zangler and crazy for you. No, no, that's a.

[A]

That's a silly one.

[B]

Silly. And Keith David, Jelly's last jam. Okay, fine. They were like, if we nominate Keith David, we can bring Ben Vereen into the part later.

[A]

They were already thinking ahead, weren't they?

[B]

They're smart.

[A]

Yeah. No, put Zion in there.

[B]

Adler. Work with me, people.

[A]

Yeah, come on. Every now and then there's a nomination that I just go, you know, it's always like it's a double edged sword because we're always saying, think outside the box, you know, be creative sometimes with your nominations. And then they do. And you go, really? That's how you use your creativity card.

[B]

Fail. I mean, also like. But I almost feel like with Chip Zion, he's so like, iconic. Doesn't even say it. It's like there's something about him that feels so like origin story and like definitive like, of like, like that. You just. He sounds like he already has a few Tonys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like he's actually bereft of Tony nomination, but you hear him and you're like, oh, that old veteran for sure. He's got a. Yeah.

[A]

Never had a Tony nomination. And in fact there was like a 10 year, maybe 15, 12 or 15 year gap between Broadway shows for him, I think between Falsettos and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Maybe that's it.

[B]

He.

[A]

There was a long period where he wasn't on Broadway and it sounds crazy because he's just been around forever and been a part of so many beloved works that you would think, as you said, that he'd been recognized by now, but he hasn't. There are quite a few actors where that hasn't happened yet. And it's. It's time. Luckily, Harmony is coming down the pike and I have my feelings on that show, but he is absolutely fantastic in it and will get nominated, I am sure.

[B]

Thank God.

[A]

It's happening. It's got to happen. Speaking of featured actor, I do want to give a quick shout out to last year's Tonys and say I'm so happy that John Andrew Morrison was nominated for A Strange Loop and I would absolutely keep his nomination, but I want to add one more nomination for that category for A Strange Loop, which is James Jackson Jr. Who to take the line. Oh, so you think you're too good for AIDS and make it such a powerhouse comedy line. That man is incredible and should have been nominated.

[B]

Incredible. James Jackson Jr. Is so brilliant. Did you see White Girl in Danger?

[A]

I didn't. I'm gonna Maybe try to rush the matinee on Saturday.

[B]

You have to. It's so bonkers and brilliant and he is absolutely inspired. He just kind of lurks in this, like, barely featured role through, like the whole show. And then. I don't want to spoil it, but he comes in at the end and is just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like earth shattering.

[A]

Yeah. I'm gonna. Either tomorrow, Friday night or Saturday afternoon. I'm gonna. I'm gonna try because it closes this weekend and I would like to see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I'm not gonna say who. There's. There are five nominees there. I agree with some of them and I don't agree with all of them. And I'll say James Jack. There is room for James Jackson Jr. In that category. That's all I'll say.

[B]

Is there room for James Jackson Jr. To bring a friend from Strange. Rid of two people from this category.

[A]

I mean, if I'm being honest, I could probably get rid of three. But, but, but, but, yes, I would be. There's another.

[B]

James Jackson Jr. Can bring his parents.

[A]

James Jackson. You could bring his cousin if he wants to.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, there's another actor from Strange Loop who I would have had no problem putting it. What's, what's his name?

[B]

Antoine Hopper.

[A]

Well, first of all, any of them, really. I would have no problem with any of them. Antoine Hopper, Jason. Yeah, he's great. Also. What's his name? John Michael Lyles. Also fantastic. He does such a. I love his voice. When they're doing the Grinder number Exile in Gayville and he's like looking for a gym bud top if it goes there. His voice on that is so incredible.

[B]

I think it's funnier when you see him too because he's so like a pocket gay and he's so like pretty and cute and like twinkie looking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when he left out with that like, like scary, like two octaves down voice, it's too funny.

[A]

And then he does the agent too. He goes, you've got a great opportunity, especially for you.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That company of Strange Loop is just fantastic.

[B]

That's such a great show. Well, okay. Speaking of featured actor in a musical, I'm just getting scared I'm not going to get my chance. So I've got to get him in there. And this is not just because of the boxer shorts and it is not erased by him. Later, winning for Moulin Rouge, Aaron Tovey and Next to Normal.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No love from you.

[A]

We all know how I feel about T vite. I will say him in Next to Normal is the best use of him I've seen in a show.

[B]

I really love the way you used Aaron Tveit.

[A]

Yeah. Honestly, that's. That's the best thing I can say about it. I am not a fan of what he does, but many people are, and therefore I am in the small minority. And I have come to accept that. I don't begrudge him any of us anymore. No, I just don't find him to be super compelling on stage. I don't find much emotion from him in his work, which is why I think Next Normal is a great use of him because he's not playing a person, he's playing an ideal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is rather than me saying, oh, the work you're doing is great. I'm more like going, that's a great casting of him to make him this figment of an imagination.

[B]

Just on a stripper pole in short shorts, just like dimming and shaking and high belting.

[A]

I mean, not conflating memories here. He's in the short shorts and then he goes on a pole, but he's fully clothed on the pole.

[B]

I am definitely conflating that. And I saw his replacement and the show actually worked better without the distraction. I mean, the replacement was gorgeous and talented, but I think that Aaron has a star presence that was almost too big for that role.

[A]

I cannot confirm nor deny that. I know. Actually, I did see Kyle Dean Massey in the role as well, and Kyle was also very good. I. I remember Aaron in the show and he was a bit of a moment in the show and it was a shock that he wasn't nominated. For a lot of people, the fans were very devastated, and so they were pleased that they showcased him on the Tony Awards.

[B]

I. Stalker Channing showcased him.

[A]

Stalker Channing. Well, also their. Their Tony. Tony performance. They did that trio with the three of them and didn't include Damiano, which was a shame. But I thought he was very good in the show. I did not. I have not found him as compelling since.

[B]

And wait, have you watched the video of him doing mine hair?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Only once.

[A]

I watched the first 90 seconds and then I stopped. Have you ever seen a straight woman at a gay bar?

[B]

Have I ever seen a straight woman at a gay bar?

[A]

That is honestly the vibe I get. I get very Yachts Queen work. I know of drug race. It's giving me very. Everyone on the team of Bad Cinderella has heard of Pink Flamingos. No one has watched Pink Flamingos. And they say to you, aren't I serving you Pink Flamingos. That is the vibe I get from T Vi doing my hair. And that is the nicest way I can describe it. And I don't want to go any further because I really don't want to be too mean.

[B]

Okay. To put it cap on for all the.

[A]

I don't begrudge you this snub though, because I do think that this is a worthy nomination.

[B]

Thank you. And for all the stands out there that traumatized by Matt's disdain for him, I just want you to know that I love him enough for me and Matt combined. If you take my love for Aaron Tveit and split it between two people, we would be two huge Aaron Tveit fans.

[A]

And let me also be the first to say, I don't know the man personally. I'm sure he's wonderful. And also, if he does a performance in the future that changes my mind, I will absolutely say, holy shit, this changed my mind. I look forward to that day that has happened to me with performers before. I have had shows and performances where I was not a fan. And then I saw them in a whole new light with something else. I went, holy me sideways.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Actually, this is not Broadway. But Katherine Hepburn. I used to not be a fan of Katherine Hepburn. And then I watched her in Philadelphia, Philadelphia Story, and then Summertime and those two back to back changed my mind on her. So here we are.

[B]

Here we are. And here we'll stay.

[A]

Here we stay. Okay, you, one for you now. Oh, no, you. You did. You did your second. Your next one. So let me actually do a combo of the same show but two different categories. Speaking of the year 2000, it is the Michael Jean Lachiusa wild party. And I want to put in for best director, George C. Wolf and best orchestrations, Bruce Coughlin. Because I am never gonna not stand George C. Wolf. And the orchestrations for this wild party are bonkers. Incredible.

[B]

Boots the house down.

[A]

Yep. And I can tell you who I would replace. I would replace Lynn Taylor Corbett for Swing. Not because I think God's sake. And then I would replace Doug Besterman for the Music man for orchestrations because I think that the Music man revival orchestrations are fine, but I don't like that they add percussion for Rock Island. I. I want Rock island to be acapella and then get into the music. Having percussion gives them training wheels. And I say, no, this is Broadway. You sink or you swim.

[B]

Can I ask a personal question off topic?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

How did you feel about the Music.

[A]

Man revival, this most recent one?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you want Me to be brief but kind of bitchy, or do you want me to be a little more thoughtful and longer?

[B]

Both. One at a time.

[A]

Brief and bitchy. It was the most impressive high school production I've ever seen. That is how I felt about the most recent Music Man. If I'm being a little more thoughtful and longer, Everyone knows I adore Sutton Foster. Give me Jane, Howdy, Shell into my veins. There's no one in that cast who I dislike and very few in that company who I did, whose performances I did not necessarily enjoy. I just did not find this last revival to have much invention or creativity to it. It all felt a little paint by numbers. I mean, it was big, the cast, so talented, so like that big ensemble singing, fucking, you know, Iowa Stubborn. Sounded glorious. But I don't know. Like, I think back on that 99 Kiss Me Kate. And even though it wasn't necessarily a reinvention, there was a modern energy to it that made it feel sparkly and new. And this just feels sparkly and new to me. I didn't need it to be a reinvention of the music band. I just wanted it to feel alive. And it didn't feel alive to me.

[B]

That's. I, I can't disagree with that.

[A]

Yeah. But I mean, I went with my 99 year old grandmother who said it was one of the best things she'd ever seen. And I did turn to her and I say, I know the things you've seen and I can tell you this is not one of the best things you've seen because you saw Gertrude Lawrence in the lady in the Dark.

[B]

I mean, the thing is like, also you've said it well when you said that. It's not that you didn't enjoy it because like, even this like off key, like figure, literally and figuratively, Music man was still. I had a great experience watching it. It's just that I just have so many notes.

[A]

Yeah, that's the thing, is it's very rare that I see something that I truly detest and have nothing nice to say. Even things like the opposite.

[B]

I usually am miserable. I genuinely had a good time at the Music Man. I just thought it didn't. It did. The Music Man Dirty Journey.

[A]

There's plenty out there I haven't liked, Ben. I'm just saying it's very rare that I see a Broadway show and I'm like, absolutely nothing that I can say about it. That's good. Tear it to shreds. Even if I don't like it, I can look at Certain things. And see, I. And say, I see what you're trying to do here. This is where I feel like it doesn't succeed because it's just so hard to make a show in general, and it's hard to get a show done. But, you know, this was. This was just a production that I was like, it's perfectly fine. It. I don't think it's great. I don't think it's bad. It's just.

[B]

There's a difference between a show that is. There's going to show that you think works or think has issues versus a show that you. There's two different. It's a different thing whether you enjoy your experience of watching it versus whether you sort of think it's good or from. For me, anyway.

[A]

And there's no set barometer. It changes per show. Even if something is messy but fascinating. That, to me, is more engaging than a competent dullard.

[B]

You know, I mean, honestly, even something like the hello Dolly revival, intellectually, I had so many qualms with, but I saw it so many times, and every time I was ecstatic for the entire experience, you know?

[A]

Yeah, I. Yes, I had a weird experience the first time I saw it, but I came to really love that production. The first time I saw it was with the entire company and BET and it was the night before the Tony Awards. And the response was so enthusiastic, and I felt a little bit like I was part of, like, Invasion of the Body Snatchers. I was like, I'm not sure if I think everything that's happening on stage is worthy of this much. Yeah, for you. But then I saw it about a month later with Donna and really enjoyed.

[B]

It, and the response was so much love.

[A]

Well, so, yes, it was. The theater was half people. It was half. It was half a theater of people who were there to see Donna and half a theater people who were pissed off because they couldn't get in to see Bette. And so the response was started off like, okay, but the cast had to work really hard to get everyone in the theater to the level they got with bet, which they did by the end of the show. And I also finally understood the joy of the title song, because watching Donna Murphy come down those steps knowing what had happened in her life and how she was going to retire from the stage, and I just started crying. I was like, she's rejoined the human race. I get it now. It was so stupid.

[B]

And that's what it's all about.

[A]

It's all about, but this wild party. I just want to say this, George C. Wolf, I. There's very rarely a moment where I think he shouldn't be nominated for director of whatever the. He's doing. This one in particular, Bruce Coughlin, for orchestrations. Get it in there. Yeah. That's all. That's. That's all I gotta say.

[B]

Well, piggybacking on the George C. Wolfness of it all. My list includes Leah DeLaria in his production of on the Town in 1999, coming from the park the summer before. And I mean, you know, Leah has dined out on that performance for decades. And it. I don't know why that wasn't a.

[A]

Hit, that on the Town. Yeah, well, I didn't see it just from the reviews that I read. And I talked about this. I think Peter Duchenne and I talked about this in like, quote unquote times. The Tony's got it right or wrong. And what I got from the reviews was that critics didn't love it in the Park. They were sort of like, this is fine. And then when it transferred to Broadway, everyone was sort of confused and felt that it actually got worse at the Gershwin. And so in addition to it not being as good, they were like, this wasn't amazing to begin with, and you've made it worse. Like, what are we. Because it was a new choreographer and all this stuff.

[B]

But George C. Wolf, I mean, I have no comparison.

[A]

I didn't see it in either place. But George C. Wolf, you know, he's. He rarely shits the bed. Even when something's not as good as it should be, there's something to it that's fascinating. I mean, like, Gary was such a messy play, but it was so interesting and often very funny. Yeah.

[B]

The only thing I can't forgive is being bored. And I was bored at 110 the shade.

[A]

Bored in the Rain. I. Listen, I. I hear you on that. But the Audra doing a cartwheel with no hands. Yes. God. Boots house down, honey. Oh, okay, so I've got three featured actresses in a musical that I want to talk about for a quick second in succession. Bing bang, bing bang, bong, sing, sang song. The most recent being Loretta Divine and Dream Girls, which is stupid to me. She being the only dream not nominated. This was the year. This was the year of the Three Nine Women and Lori Beachman.

[B]

So. Okay, let's. This is a very. Who do you kick out?

[A]

So I. I really had to think about this.

[B]

No, I'm gonna cry.

[A]

Well, it's. It is a Sophie's Choice, is it not? One Might call me the Meryl Streep of this podcast.

[B]

No, I call you the Nazi guard.

[A]

Because I don't have to do this, but I'm choosing to do this. I am the Nazi guard here. So we have Lillian Montevecchi. Who's the winner.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which was a bit of a surprise because everyone thought it was gonna be Anita Morris for the same show.

[B]

Now, say what you will about Lilian Montevecchin, but nobody would have mentioned winning that Tony as often as she mentioned having won it.

[A]

It is true. We also have, as I said. Well, we do have Anita Morris for Carla, Karen Akers as Louisa in Nine, and then Lori Beachman for Joseph and the amazing Technicolor dream coat.

[B]

Cheryl nominated leading.

[A]

She was nominated in leading. Yeah, in. Which is interesting.

[B]

Never have happened if Cheryl had been in featured.

[A]

This is. This is true. And Cheryl will let you know that every time.

[B]

Girls love her, love her, love her.

[A]

Listen, singing doesn't pay the bills. The one I will kick out. And it kills me to do this, Ben. And just know this is no slight to her. I would kick out Karen Akers and put in Loretta Devine. Oh, I think. Right.

[B]

Poor Karen Akers. I hate to see this happen to her. I don't know whether I agree or don't agree, but the important thing is you didn't take it from Lori Beachman's cold, dead hands.

[A]

God damn. No, I would never do that. I'm not a monster, Ben. I'm just a. I don't know you.

[B]

I don't know your life.

[A]

No, Lori, first of all, Lori Beachman's. That's a nomination in itself. And also just being the female narrator because it was a male before her.

[B]

Yeah, and not as good. I mean, even Patti LuPone says a nice thing about Lori Beachman. She says she was such a nice lady. I mean, it's the only woman I've ever heard Patty not speak ill of.

[A]

It's true. It's true. Or in general, Patty, Especially after all these years later. Like, give Patty, like five or six years after being around someone and she'll find something nasty to say. It's what we love about her. But yeah, she's. What's. What's there negatively to say about Laurie Beechman? She does a great memory.

[B]

She's really bad at not dying from cancer. My drop.

[A]

I fully threw my mic on the ground and walked away from the podcast.

[B]

I have. I have separation anxiety. I have insecure attachments. I have abandonment issues. And Lori Beachman should have been here. I Needed her here. I need her now.

[A]

The roles we could have had from Laurie Beachman, and we put it that way.

[B]

There were no roles.

[A]

There were no. There were no roles. There were no roles. We were denied. Performances from Laurie Beachman were alive today.

[B]

She would have no more Broadway credits than she had.

[A]

I don't know about that.

[B]

She.

[A]

What.

[B]

What could she have done?

[A]

Well, how old would she have been today?

[B]

Like 68 or something. 71, you know. Okay, so, like Randy Graff age.

[A]

Okay. She could have done. She could have done a lot. She could have done a lot of. She could have followed Marin in a lot of her roles.

[B]

Aaron. In what?

[A]

I would have seen her in Kiss Me Kate. I would have seen her do that voice. Yes, well, she was in the Pirates of Penzance revival. There's clearly some soprano up in there.

[B]

No, those were all Linda Ronset's keys. And then she was singing, like. Like, alto part in the chorus. She couldn't have sung, like, so in love in head voice.

[A]

Well, they lowered it for Carolee.

[B]

It was already low for Marin, wasn't it?

[A]

Well, it's a low song in general, but they lowered it even further for Carolee because, you know, Marin has. That has that sort of mix that's not even really a mix. It's just sort of like a hard break from chest to head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's. It comes right after this, after C.

[B]

But Carolee still kind of did it in, like, a head voice. Like, I don't think Lori really, like. Lori's head voice was like, for like an occasional, you know, to be like, what it was that, like, where she's like the. What's that song on her time between there. She's like. She's like. Because we both know what we're. She's like. We both know what we're going through. Like, she doesn't have it, like, in a head voice.

[A]

Well, I guess we'll never know what she would have sounded like now, will we, Ben?

[B]

We never will.

[A]

No. But, yes, that's what I would put Loretta Devine in over Karen Akers. And I. I am sad about it because I do love Karen Akers and nine. Her voice is so thrilling on those songs.

[B]

Julie, was she nominated for Grand Hotel?

[A]

She was not.

[B]

See, then they would have owed her a nomination for Grand Hotel. And surely by 1990. 1991, whatever year it was there.

[A]

Yeah, that was the year. So that was Randy Graff in City of Angels, Krakowski for Grand Hotel, Krista Moore for Gypsy. None of who I'm kicking out of bed for in that category. Who would be the 4 4th that year? That's the question, ain't it? Yeah, it is. Hang on one second. 1990, we have ourselves, Kathleen Row McGowan for aspects of Love. Get her out of there and get cars.

[B]

And I'm. Look, I'm an Aspects of Love queen. Okay? That is my, like, penultimate Andrew show as far as I'm concerned. But, I mean, I still. I do not. Maybe Anne Crumb deserved her lead actress. That was special. Kathleen Roe McAllen. She was probably very good as Cinderella in the national tour of into the woods, but I do not think she brought anything special to the role of Juliette Trapani.

[A]

I mean, at the very least, Ann Crumbs had to sacrifice her foot to the set of Aspects of Love to get her nomination.

[B]

For no other reason?

[A]

For no other reason. No.

[B]

And she also died, which, you know, should get her something in this world.

[A]

Absolutely. Kathleen McAllen. Get her out of there. Put Karen Akers in there. Get Karen Akers out of the nine category. Put Loretta Divine in there. Bing, bang, boom. My. My next one, going a little further back and featured actress in a musical is Chita Rivera in West side Story.

[B]

Oh, fuck, yes. I mean, this. We really. I mean, is there any greater omission?

[A]

I know it's. It is truly the number one of all time because it is first of all, the. The most living legend we have right now on Broadway. One of the top legends of musical theater in general. This is the role that launched such an amazing career that she is still associated with. It is an iconic role and an iconic show. She did not get nominated. Carol Lawrence got nominated for playing Maria, which is one of those. It's one of those weird Tony trivia bits where Maria is one of the roles in musical theater that every time it's been on Broadway, the actress playing her has been nominated, if we don't count the Eva Van Hoffe production, which ended up not being eligible for awards for the gas leak Tony year because I don't think enough nominators got to see it before it closed.

[B]

Oh, right. Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, like, we now appreciate how.

[B]

Hard Anita is because every single revival, we're all like, well, llama I. Exactly. What are we comparing it to is our dream of how Cheetah was.

[A]

Exactly. What's so crazy is that it's Rita Moreno in the movie is what starts the narrative of Anita is the role. Because once Rita wins the Oscar, Anita never goes denied ever again. She either gets nominated as Debbie Allen, she wins as Karen Olivo. She WINS As Ariana DeBose.

[B]

Debbie. Not when Debbie.

[A]

No, Debbie and Joe's and Josie de Guzman both lost to Priscilla Lopez for Dan Hollywood.

[B]

Hollywood.

[A]

Yeah, I know it's a weird win, but also, like, I'm gonna give it to Priscilla because she lost to Kelly Bishop in A Chorus Line, which that's a win I do agree with. So.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the thing, though. This is like, the Tonys are just constantly borrowing against future. It's like they owed Bernadette the Tony from Sunday in the park with George. Wouldn't have had to give to Cheetah for the rink if they would have given her the Tonys for, you know, west side Story. Yeah, Several other shows, but they owed it to Bernardette, so then they had to give it to Bernardet for any get your gun. Which meant that Carol Lee didn't get the Tony she should have gotten.

[A]

Exactly. It's. The domino effect is crazy. Very rarely is there a moment. And this is why you should listen to the Peter Deschan episode where we talk about when they do get it right times where it's like it just sinks up and you go, you chose right. Tony's good. Way to go. This win has stood up to the test of time and one more year prior. Oh, and so, first of all, Carol Lawrence should have been in lead, but this is the time where, like, you're below the title. You were featured. Maria is the leading role of that show. There's also two women for the musical oh, Captain, that were included. And I'm like, get one of them out of there. And then I don't know if this is the same year. Was Candide the same year as west side Story? Or was it the year before?

[B]

Was. But let me see, because Candide opened.

[A]

Before Westside, I think. But.

[B]

But I mean, take two new musicals. I'll never write one again. Bye.

[A]

Yeah, okay, bye. I love that mic drop of Leonard Bernstein. No, Candide was the season before. I knew that they were close together because the. He kind of kept going back and forth between the two. Candide was being written, and then they lost funding, so he went on to west side, and then west side lost funding, so he went back to Candide. And then Candide finished while he was finishing west side. It was all. All incestuous. But so going back the year before west side. Oh, and also this was the year we had fucking five nominees for featured actress in a musical, and we couldn't include Cheetah Rivera for West side story. Jesus. Christ. 1957. Four featured actresses in a musical. Edie Adams for Lil Abner. Who Wins? Virginia Gibson and Happy Hunting. Ira Patina for Candide as the old lady, and Joe Sullivan Lesser for Most Happy Fella. Missing is Barbara Cook and Candide.

[B]

Wait, Joe Sullivan Lesser is nominated for featured actress?

[A]

Yeah, I'm guessing because since she wasn't above the title.

[B]

Oh, right. But see, but, like, that's the lead. And also Barbara Cooking. Candide was the lead.

[A]

Was the lead. But even so, either way, just. How do you not nominate Barbara Cook for Introducing the World to Glitter and.

[B]

Be Gay and like, was so burned by the flop of it all.

[A]

Wait, say that again.

[B]

Happy Hunting. Wasn't that the show that was so bad? Athel Merman was, like, scarred for life.

[A]

Yeah, Happy Hunting was the show that was so bad that when Sondheim was hired to write music and lyrics for Gypsy, Merman said, no, no untested composers. He can do lyrics.

[B]

Now, here's an interesting question to ponder. If you were king of the world?

[A]

In my mind, I am, but yes.

[B]

Okay. So would you want to take that score away from Julie Stein and have Sondheim write it?

[A]

No, I think that was the case where it all fell in the right places.

[B]

I think I'm with you.

[A]

Absolutely. It's. I mean, it's the best Julie Stein score. And I don't think Sondheim was at a place with his talents where he would have been able to give that show what it needed musically.

[B]

It wouldn't have been Follies, it would have been Saturday Night.

[A]

Yeah, he was still in that. He was still figuring out exactly how he was going to work as a composer. He had talent, but it wasn't quite up there. He would have been trying to.

[B]

Talent, not what I call them. Deaf, dumb and blind.

[A]

Maybe when he says so himself. Like with Saturday Night, he was trying to mimic Frank Lester. He was trying to mimic Julie Stein. And it wasn't really until after Forum when he really started to experiment with what he wanted to do.

[B]

Also not nominated, right?

[A]

No, not nominated for form, which is a shame, because those lyrics are pretty damn good. And I think Comedy Tonight is a foolproof opening number. Yeah, but I mean, I just. With Barbara Cook and Candide. I'm sorry, like, just. If you're in doubt, y', all listen to her Glitter and be Gay. It is, in my opinion, still the best version of that song.

[B]

It is the hands down.

[A]

It is so purely sung, but still so dynamically sung. She sings all the H's on the Hahahas. It's. There's an attitude to it that's glorious.

[B]

It's glorious.

[A]

Phenomenal. Oh God. And doesn't get nominated for the hardest song in the world.

[B]

But what was that show was not very nominated. Besides Europe, were there other.

[A]

They were nominated for musical and some other stuff. I mean, Candy did not do well, as we know. It became a. It's the definition of a cult hit that they did the cast recording and theater fans all fell in love with it. And then eventually it sort of found its way because of the overture. But it was nominated for musical. It was nominated for featured actress in a musical. It was nominated for, I think scenic design. No, maybe not even scenic design. Costume design. Irene Sheriff. This was back in the time when designers would be nominated sort of for their yearly work. So Irene Sheriff was nominated for candidates Happy Hunting Shangri La and Small War on Murray Hill together. And then they were nominated for conductor and. Or music director, but they lost to My Fair Lady. Oliver Smith was nominated for. For Candide as well.

[B]

But I mean like for Candide for Auntie Mame, for clearing in the woods for Eugenia for my visit to a small planet. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, but then they. But they. He really wins for My Fair lady alone. So I'm like, what are. What is this?

[B]

Yeah, what is it? Oh, I. That's so interesting and weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What an odd thing. As odd as the Tonys are now, Ben, they used to be otter. Did we take a second commercial break yet?

[B]

We didn't.

[A]

Okay, on that note, let's take one more commercial break. You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow color.

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. And we're back. Okay, I am going to. I've. I've. I've. I've. Leading. Been leading you on the dance floor for a while now, but I want to do one more category and then I want to pass it off to you because I'm going to do another one of quick succession.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Leading actress in a musical. I got three most recent. Kristen Chenoweth in the Apple Tree, which despite how people felt about the revival, I thought the revival was quite nice.

[B]

But I regret it.

[A]

Yeah, it was a. It was a solid revival. It was better at Encores, but it was still a solid revival. And she was def. Like, she made it.

[B]

I had a chip on my shoulder because I had seen her in On a Clear Day at Encores and it was so bad and she was so bad in it that when the Apple Tree was in encores with her. I stupidly was, like, up another Barbara Harris role. She's gonna suck. It should be a belter. And then so I didn't go. And then when it was on Broadway, I was like, I said, I'm not going. You know, I said what?

[A]

I said, yeah, Apple Tree was a much better fit. And also Apple Tree is just a better show. So it's. It was so. It was so delightful. Encores. And it was still good on Broadway. But something kind of went missing. But she was still great.

[B]

Is one of the great, great musical comedy talents of all time. I can't believe I sat that out.

[A]

She is truly gifted in that respect. And I probably would kick out Deborah Monk in Curtains for this and put Deborah Monk in featured actress where she belongs. My next one, going a little further back is Ms. Sally Murphy in Carousel.

[B]

Had to happen.

[A]

Had to happen. If it. And same thing with Michael Hayden and Carousel. If it were five nominees this year, they both would have gotten in, no problem. That said, it's even at 4. It should have been both of them. I love De Hody, but her nomination for Best Little Whorehouse Goes Public is stupid. And I think even she would agree with us on that. Should have been Sally Murphy.

[B]

Sidebar that for one moment because. And I want to come back to Sally and Michael, but one of the craziest things in the world to me and certainly one of the craziest things in Forbidden Broadway. In Forbidden Broadway strikes Back in the Elaine Stritch parody, which is genius. Christine Petty as Elaine Stritch singing to the tune of Zip Rich. There's one lyric which I always thought I surely was just not understanding the words because there's no way it could be what it sounds like. I found out now that it is. It's. Once my Broadway credits towered. I did shows with Noel Coward stritch. I was vena rated. I was classy as D. Hody. Now I always play a throaty bitch. I've degenerated. So funny. But the fact that De Hodie made it into that lyric blows my mind.

[A]

It is very inside baseball. And that's why we love Forbidden Broadway.

[B]

Even for Forbidden Broadway, it's pretty inside. Like, it's so bizarre that that is the word also. I mean, I guess we all just know Dihoti is super classy.

[A]

She is. She's a tall, thin bitch and knows how to stare you down with the iciest of eyes. I don't think. Actually, I don't think that Forbidden Broadway ever did a Parody of this Carousel. They mention it in their parody of King and I, but not in negative terms. They. They say, let's do what worked well.

[B]

With Carousel like the rich did with Carousel.

[A]

Yeah, let's make the text over sex like the British did to Carousel.

[B]

Thank you. I saw this carousel and I had never seen the movie. And I was obviously, I grew up on Rodgers and Hammerstein, but I think my grandparents had always skipped Carousel like it was too dark for kids or something. And I was just blown the fuck away. It still remains one of the best productions I've ever seen. And I was so in love with Michael Hayden, like domestic violence be damned.

[A]

Well, yeah.

[B]

Sally Murphy was just heartbreaking. And of course, there.

[A]

Listen, we're not going to go off too much on it. On it. I actually went on a very large tangent about it two weeks ago with my episode of PJ Adzima where I talk about how what that show is actually saying and how that production understood that so well. It's why that production's so incredible. But, yes, that it would not have soared as much as it did if it weren't for Michael and Sally, and they should have been recognized. And I can also say Michael should have been in there over Terrence Mann for Beauty and the Beast. And I love Terence Mann, but that nomination, no, ma'. Am. I would have kept Boyd Gaines for she Loves Me. I would have kept Victor Garber for Damn Yankees. I'd have kept Jerry Shea for Passion, even though I don't love his performance. The Sondheimite in me is like, let's keep the passion numb. But I will put Michael in over Jerry if I had to.

[B]

Interesting. I mean, also, like with Terrence Mann, I mean, obviously he's so brilliant, but you do kind of wonder, like, if some of the replacements might have been better fits.

[A]

For me, it's just a nomination where it's like, I know we love Terence Mann, but is this really a performance of his that we think is recogn. Recognition worthy? You know, I can. I can grant us Susan Egan. She's new on the scene. She's a bright, shining ingenue. Gary beach, we love. It's his first nomination and he's a big scene stealer. But like Terence Mann under all that padding, it's. With such a bland role, in my opinion. I don't think that's necessary. Whereas Michael Hayden, just vibrant and sexy and also heartbreaking, and won a Theater World award, got nominated for a drama desk like it was. He should have, and so should A Sally.

[B]

My last shitting on Michael Hayden at the. Because they wanted Robert Goulet kind of a voice and it was really treated Michael Hayden. And it gives me no pleasure to say this. Like he was Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard and he sang beautifully. He was a wonderful singer. He just wasn't like a big like hammy, like bellowing, you know, it wasn't.

[A]

An operatic baritone sound. He has sort of this very light Irish tenor and it sounds good. It's just not what, it's not what we hear for that role.

[B]

It was so unfair. I mean it was like. But it just pisses me off the way they accept Glenn Close at Sunset Boulevard and then dismiss Michael Hayden in Carousel.

[A]

And. And I'm so glad you said that because it's the same group of. And I hate to be hateful to my demographic, but the same group of caddy theater gays that really tore him to shreds about that and then praised Glenn Close. And I'm like, I'm sorry. No, absolutely not. Kindly sit the down. I. I mentioned this before with Natasha Diaz and I maybe on another episode, but like I was at a gala a few years back with all these, you know, prolific backstage, behind the scenes gaze of theater and I mentioned Carousel and I mentioned my love of this revival and they all go, oh, well, you know, the Billy couldn't sing. And I said very loudly how they were all wrong and that was a stupid take and that they could essentially go themselves. Yeah, I said what they all want is they want Gordon McCray, John Rate. They want the. They want the quarterback in high school that wouldn't them on that stage dying in front of their eyes. And I'm like, that is stupid. He was a breathing human being with a gorgeous voice. That aside, moving on, my last leading actress musical nomination and I don't understand how this didn't happen. Stephanie Mills in the Wiz.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Not nominated at all. Not even for featured.

[B]

Okay, who. Who were the others?

[A]

We have Bernadette for Mac and Mabel. We have Angela Lansbury for Gypsy, of course. And this is back when it still was 4. Although I believe leading actor in a musical that year had five nominees. So I'm like, why not just expand it to 5 for. For these gals.

[B]

Black lives matter.

[A]

Black lives matter. Lola Falana for Dr. Jazz.

[B]

I'm proud to say I'm too young to know who that was, but she was sort of a big deal. I'm made to understand Lola Falana. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, it is. There is. It brings diversity to this group for sure. It's out of all these white ladies. And then Anne Rein King for Good Time Charlie as Joan of Arc. I'm just sitting here going, I'm sorry. We've got the hit of the year with this tiny dynamo of a. Of a babe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Singing for her life and. And was in the show, I think, the entire run, too.

[B]

I mean, and the revival. I mean, and just one of the performances I wish I had seen. I mean, you listened to that album. I mean, that is up there with Patti in Evita. It's like just one of those, like, vocals that is just untouchable. Nell Carter, Andrea McArdle. I mean, people don't sound the way they sound, obviously.

[A]

They. It's. It's such a unique voice. It's such a glorious, glorious. Yeah, yeah. It's such a glorious thing.

[B]

Stephanie Mills, no matter how strong and belting she is, her voice is always like, just. Just gorgeously. Just so exquisitely beautiful, you know?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's tender, it's brassy. She can do all the. All the emotions, all the things. I mean, her. Her home is still the best home and be a lion. As soon as I get home, it's a.

[B]

So.

[A]

And that's a show like that she does have to carry on her back, you know, at such a young age. So impressive.

[B]

What do you think about these shows, like Funny Girl and the Baker's Wife and the wizard and Wicked, where the leading ladies act one song, the Soon As I Get Home, has the same ending as her Act 2 song. Like, it's that, like, when I meet the wizard and Defying Gravity, like I'm the greatest star and don't run in my parade. Like, what is that?

[A]

I think it's sort of old musical theater motifs kind of thing. We're sort of like. We're bringing them back full circle in a very subtle way. But I don't know. I don't know. I think it's one of those chemical reaction things, you know, I don't.

[B]

I feel like they kind of give it away. I wish they wouldn't do that.

[A]

I feel like with. As soon as I get home. And home it is. It does musically connect. And they also. That one is early in Act 1 and then end of Act 2. So enough time has passed that you maybe don't remember it. Funny Girl, randomized Parade and star. I don't think they end with the same music, but they end sort of in the same structure, right?

[B]

Yeah, they don't end with the same music. It's. And it's the. What is the thing that's the same in them. I guess that's acceptable. I'm being too broad. Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's her. It's her. It's her motivated motif. It's Fanny's motivated, y'. All. That's her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then Les Miz said, let's take that idea.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Give me. Give me one of yours. Sir.

[B]

Well, John Cameron Mitchell in the Secret Garden. What the. Y', all.

[A]

Who else was nominated that year?

[B]

That's a good question. It's a real good question. I mean, isn't that, like the, Like, Will Rogers Follies?

[A]

It's Will Rogers Follies. Miss Saigon. Oh, you know who. Miss Saigon took up two nominations that year.

[B]

Oh, because Hinton Battle won. I mean, was he that brilliant?

[A]

Well, look at the four week. Another Bruce Adler nominated two years in a row. Y'. All.

[B]

Ew. Ruining everything. Bruce Adler. I'm so sick of this.

[A]

And yet everyone's mad at me for politely saying why I don't enjoy Aaron to. And you are just going hard in on Bruce Adler.

[B]

I think, like, you just have to punch down is all.

[A]

And Bruce Adler's also dead.

[B]

Well, you have to punch Six Feet Under.

[A]

Truly down. As far down as he can.

[B]

I'm okay. I mean, Greg Berg. Burge Berg. Oh, Willy Falk. Easy. Everybody hates Willy Falk. He only got the part because he was sleeping with Nick Heitner.

[A]

Oh, is that true?

[B]

Or Cameron McIntosh. He was sleeping.

[A]

I want to say Cameron McIntosh, because I want. I have no problem on him, and I don't want to on my beloved Nikki Heitner. I know that Nick Heitner started dating one of the chorus members of Carousel, but that was once. The show was running, and he wait. And he waited. But. Well, yeah, maybe he was Willy. I don't know. I don't know. His full life, but he doesn't say anything about it.

[B]

Give it up. But, I mean, I. Yeah, he did not.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Although, I mean, I love that song. I'm such a. For Miss Saigon. I used to shit on that show when I was, like, a cunty little, like, middle schooler. I would just be like, Miss Saigon. The lyrics are so banal. And, like, when I went to see that revival, prepared to be a hater. I just loved it. Every minute of it. I feel like it's partly because all Broadway musicals suck now. So it's like I had higher standards in the early 90s than I. I'm like Now I'm just so desperate to have something that's like coherent with like good melody's. And so I loved it. I went to see it three times and I was really in love with Alastair whatever his name is that played Chris. Everyone that's ever sung why God why has sung it better than Willie Falk.

[A]

It's true. I mean, you only see, I think 10, 20 seconds of him in that Tony performance of like the montage they do before American Dream and he's pretty dire in it. It's. He's a charisma vacuum.

[B]

Only because Leia Salongo was so nice that he got away with that. Like Anyone, if Patti LuPone had been the original Kim and Miss Saigon, she would have had him fired.

[A]

Yeah, she would have thrown something in his head and be like, why aren't you giving me anything on stage? Yeah, no, absolutely. Take him out and put in John Cameron Mitchell for Secret Garden. Or honestly, who's Greg Burgeon? Okay, the is she and what is. Those were the days. Bruce Adler, we stand you having two Tony nominations, but what the is the show you're in now?

[B]

You know, I'm first in line to shit on Bruce Adler, but I mean, really, the thing about Willy Falk is not that I want him to not be nominated, it's that I want someone else to play Chris and be nominated.

[A]

Sure. I just don't like that role. I think that role is a douche and a half.

[B]

But that's my kind of guy though.

[A]

Well, Ben, we should probably get you to therapy and talk on that. Yeah, listen, we've all, we've all had our douches and a half and they take your heart and they break it and luckily we turn it into art. That's. We don't make like Kim and kill yourself in the end. Make like, you know, like Matt Koplik or Carole King and turn it into Tapestry.

[B]

I'm so here for your bio musical.

[A]

Oh, my bio musical is going to be great. No one's going to know what to do with themselves. Okay, I have another one. Oh, this is such a random one. And I don't even know how much I stand by it because I didn't even see the original production but Dorothy Loudon and Noises Off. I just, I have. I can't. I can only imagine how brilliant she was.

[B]

Yeah. 100.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who beat her for that? That's 84. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I know that Deborah Rush was nominated for the same show for could.

[B]

Have been lead, couldn't she?

[A]

She could have Been. Although when Andrea Martin got nominated for it, she was nominated and featured as well. I feel like it's such an ensemble show, it's difficult to categorize a lead. Christine Baranski. Christine Baranski won for the Real Thing, which I'm not going to take that away from her. Joe Henderson in Play Memory, which I know nothing about.

[B]

Those words all sound made up.

[A]

Yes, exactly. And then Dana Ivy for Heartbreak House. And I'm. The only reason I'm going to say Dana Ivy is because she was nominated again that same year for Sunday in the park with George, so she can't afford to get rid of one.

[B]

I know, but the fact that she was in a play where her character's name was Lady Utterwood, I just kind of need her to keep it.

[A]

If ever there was a Dana Ivy role, it's Lady Utterword.

[B]

I say we take it away from, quote, unquote, Joe Henderson in this alleged play Memory in the role of Ruth McMillan. It sounds made up.

[A]

It's all made up. It's scrubbed from the Internet. It was.

[B]

Yeah, that's. AI wrote that. What is it? Chatbot Bot?

[A]

Fully an AI nomination. Yeah, I think that should be another episode. Is looking through all of the Tony Awards and just seeing which ones are fully AI nominations. Bruce Adler's nomination that we just talked about. I can't even remember what the title was.

[B]

Oh, yeah, what was it?

[A]

Those Were the Days. Bruce Adler and those Were the Days as various characters. Fully an AI nomination.

[B]

Oh, that's a song, you dumb hotel.

[A]

Stupid, Stupid. Kevin Coulson and Aspects of Love as George Dillingham. Not real. Not real. Give me another. Sir, do you have any more?

[B]

I do. I have two more.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One, I stand behind last, but I would start with Mandy Gonzalez and In the Heights.

[A]

Okay. As featured or lead.

[B]

I mean, I would say lead, but is that. I feel like that says more about me than the role. But to me, that character is really the. Because Usnavi is the narrator, he feels less like the protagonist to me. And I feel like it's her story.

[A]

It is. It is very much her story. And I don't think I realized how much it's Nina's story in the musical until I saw the movie, and they took away so much of her stuff and changed so much of her narrative that I was like, oh, so much. The heart is gone now. I don't know. I remember being. No, I'm. No, I'm a fan, first of all. That voice is, you know, send that voice overseas to war and it will destroy everything in its wake. But I don't know, I just remember not super loving her performance that year. But I'm also trying to remember who was nominated. That was the year of Batty for Gypsy. That was the year of Kelly Ohara for South Pacifique.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Jenna Russell for Sunday in park with George. I can't deny any of those nominations. Terry Butler for Xanadu. I will not deny her that nomination.

[B]

And then Faith Prince for A Catered Affair.

[A]

Right. That happened.

[B]

I thought Leslie Kritzer should have been nominated for A Catered Affair in the featured category. Faith was not bad. I wouldn't take it away from Faith. I mean, that. That show was not good. I do feel like Faith should be nominated for everything she ever does. But I do think that with the nomination, they should be like, you know, this is one of your freebies, right? Like.

[A]

You know that. This is your. This is your. We love you, Faith.

[B]

Yeah, love you, Faith. God, it's. It's. It's hard to take away from. I mean, if I'm being honest, this is. No one's listening to this, right? It's just you and me talking.

[A]

Yeah. I have absolutely no listeners whatsoever.

[B]

I'm a fan to a point, but I did not like Kelly in South Pacific. I mean, first of all, it should have been a belt. Honestly, I'm not the biggest Sutton Foster fan, but I thought Sutton would have been great in South Pacific, and I thought Kelly was wrong, wrong.

[A]

So I will say I am also a Kelly Ohara fan to a point. This was still the period of her career that I thought she was pretty fantastic. And there was a period in her career where she kept on getting cast in roles that people were like, she's not going to be good. And then she actually would be good. It just. It's. It happened repeatedly.

[B]

I thought that in Bells Are Ringing at Encores, I thought she was brilliant. But South Pacific, she did not do it for me.

[A]

South Pacific, she did it for me. Where she kind of first started not doing it for me was Kiss Me Kate. But that's another. That's another story.

[B]

So bad. But, like, I loved her in. Well, my theory is that Kelly and Laura should have switched with Laura doing the camp of Kiss Me Kate and Kelly doing the, like, vulnerability of she.

[A]

Loves Me Open Nancy. Oh, my God. Yes, Absolutely. That. Well, it was. Well, so first of all, it was supposed to be Kelly o' Hare and that she loves me, and then she chose King and I instead. And then she loves Anthony.

[B]

We all Know what a bum decision.

[A]

No. For a second I thought you were meaning Laura Osnes because she replaced Kelly in South Pacific. And I was like, no, no. I need someone on stage who's capable of actual showing emotions, not. Not a carb devoid robot. Thank you.

[B]

I actually thought Laura Osnes was incredible in Cinderella. I loved her in that.

[A]

I thought she was very charming in Cinderella. And actually she wasn't bad as Kelly's replacement in South Pacific. I'm just mean towards her because I don't think she's capable of much more beyond Cinderella. And I got very angry when Bandstand happened and everyone's like, where's her nomination? I'm like, because she's showing no emotion on stage. She's showing.

[B]

In fairness, I don't think anyone should have been nominated for Bandstand.

[A]

Same. But, you know, these things do happen.

[B]

Wait, so we were trying to figure out how to get who a nomination. Right now.

[A]

The person you thought was snubbed. Mandy Gonzalez.

[B]

How did you get Mandy Gonzalez in the featured category? We have. How do you say her name from Passing Strange. She was brilliant.

[A]

Deidre Aziza, I think.

[B]

Yeah. She was so good. She needs it. Andrea Martin, Young Frankenstein. She should be nominated to everything she does. Olga, Meredith and melodies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Loretta Alice was great in South Pacific and Laura Benanti was really good in Gypsy. So it. There's not really space for Mandy. I see how they got where they got.

[A]

Yeah, I.

[B]

It kills me. No, I've said it. I would take it away from Kelly. It's. For me, it's simple.

[A]

It's. It's simple little things for Ben Rimmelauer, everybody.

[B]

Simple nomination we take away.

[A]

And. And that is what she wrote on that. Speaking of the Lin Manuel Miranda of it all, I've got a featured actor in a musical nomination that I would like to correct. Isaiah Johnson in the 2016 Color Purple as Mr. A role that is near impossible. And yet he found a way that.

[B]

Production, five stars across the board, 1,000%.

[A]

And I would take away a Hamilton nomination here because we have three Hamiltons. We have Christopher Fitzgerald for Waitress, which I would not take away. And we have Brandon Victor Dixon for Shuffle along, which I would not take away either.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

Tell. Tell me to take away a Shuffle along nomination and I will punch your mother in the face. Not you, your mother.

[B]

You can punch my mom as much as you want, but I'm not taking any nominations away from Shuffle Along.

[A]

And that's. And that's. That's why I'm not going to Punch your mother. But I would take away Christopher Jackson for Hamilton here because Daveed Diggs was really charismatic and. And compelling and just a force on that stage. And while Christopher Jackson had a larger role than Jonathan Groff and Hamilton, I found Jonathan Groff made the Most of his 10 minutes on that stage.

[B]

Yeah, honestly, Christopher Jackson, that was like a fan favorite, not a real thing.

[A]

Because we like him, you know, and he's talented, he's good. I just don't think Washington is the role that people thought it was. Even when he was doing it, I didn't think it was the role.

[B]

And trying to make Washington happen, it's.

[A]

Not going to happen. Instead, get Isaiah Johnson in there for just really doing a miracle on that. On that piece. It's.

[B]

And did John Doyle win for that?

[A]

No, Thomas Kail won for that.

[B]

I mean, that's understandable. But honestly, they should have tied because, like, I mean, I'm such a Hamilton fan and Thomas Kale clearly was like an instrumental part of what made that brilliant in every possible way you could define that. And Hamilton deserved to sweep the way it did. But, like, I saw the original production of Color Purple and I thought, this is a piece of shit show. Then that Rev. I've never seen a revival make me go 180 on a piece.

[A]

Yep, same, same, same, same. It's why it's one of the best revivals of all time, because it does exactly what a revival. One of the many things revival can do. It did so perfectly.

[B]

It also just makes you understand how much John Doyle's phoning it in on all these productions where he's like, instruments.

[A]

They play instruments. And, you know, and chairs, because there's all the chairs in this. In this Color Purple too. But it worked so well. And then he uses it on so many other shows since then and you're like, not as good.

[B]

But it was funny because, like, I mean, John Doyle is probably the director who. About whom I am the most schizophrenic. Because when I. When he gets it, for me, he really hits that spot, you know?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Like, as soon as I don't like one of his shows, I mean, this is not even really so much me, but it's everybody else. It's just like he's one hit wonder. The gimmick's getting old. And then the thing is, though, like, then he comes out with these productions and I don't say that stuff because I can be a cunt. That's just not the brand of cunt that I favor.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But. But I. But I will agree with them in my heart, and then. But then he'll just blow me away. Like you did with the Color Purple.

[A]

Yeah, that's sort of. The thing is, again, the tea fight of it all. I feel this way now, but, like, catch me in the right moment when they do a certain thing, and I will change my mind, and I will. I will always acknowledge work that I find to be good. Yeah, I'm not. I am never so stuck in my ways that I refuse to admit when someone's doing something good who I didn't like before, I'm always just waiting. I go in every time, being like, is today the day I changed my mind? And sometimes it never happens, and sometimes it do. And I remember with John Doyle, with Color Purple, it had been a minute since he had done something that everyone was really compelled by. A lot of people were. Were divided about what he did with the visit. And.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, God. I mean, I don't blame him. I just hated that boring show.

[A]

Yeah, I don't like that show. But even people. There were people who loved the Visit before he got his hands on it, and they were like, oh, well, he ruined it. He made it 90 minutes and. And so stark. I'm like, I don't know. Making something shorter is not necessarily a terrible thing, but there. There are people who loved what he did. So I don't know. I. I feel like Color Purple was a second chance for that show and a second chance for him. And really, you know, it was just such a powerful night of theater and that I saw three times. I loved it so much. Yeah, I would have liked to tie there, but at the very least, Isaiah Johnson in there for featured actor. Give it to me, honey. That's the end of my list. And I'm sure there are others I could have done, but that's all I have for now.

[B]

Me too, as well.

[A]

Wonderful. Well, Ben, this has been delightful.

[B]

You're a delight.

[A]

You're always a delight. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[B]

Well, they can find me on all social media. I even reactivated my Twitter. Even though it's a hellscape. I'm just Ben Rimmelauer everywhere. B, E, N, R, I, M, A L, O with W, R. I think I spelled my name wrong, but, you know, whatever.

[A]

I will spell it correctly for the episode. Don't you worry.

[B]

I'm gay. Patti Lupon and. And Giants in the Skies on Broadway Podcast Network.

[A]

Hi, Mama. Our. Our mother Broadway Podcast Network. They say call me Mother. And we say, yes, Mama. If you like this podcast, please give us a nice 5 star rating or a little review. As I've been saying lately, you guys have really been killing it with. With the reviews. I've been recording the last couple of episodes in a row. So even though this episode's coming out two weeks after we record it, I won't have anything new to read. That doesn't mean you guys aren't writing the reviews and I'm ignoring them. It just. It hasn't happened yet.

[B]

Daddy loves you.

[A]

Daddy loves you. Please. If anything, I'm a step aunt. Your step aunt, Matt Cop like, loves you very dearly. And that's it for now, I guess. Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram at Matt Cop like usual spelling. We need to close out with a diva today, Ben. And we're now at the stage where we are willing to do repeats. Who should we close out with today?

[B]

I think the diva to close out today is got to be someone who was ignored for a Tony Award. We need to give her her due. And I think it should be Chita Rivera.

[A]

I am down for that. Let's give Ms. Chita Rivera our closeout since she didn't get the goddamn nomination for west side Story. Yeah. So check us back next week. Wait, let me check. When does this episode come out? This will be coming out. Okay, so after this episode, we will be doing a final Tony prediction winner episode on June 8, because this will be coming out on June 1. So check us back for our final predictions of the Tony Awards. And have a great rest of your week, you guys. And that's it for now. Take us away, Cheetah.

[B]

Bye, kind. Stick to your own kind. A boy who kills cannot love A.

[A]

Boy who kills has no heart and.

[B]

He'S the boy who gets your love.

[A]

And gets your heart Very smart.

[B]

Very, very smart.

[A]

A boy like that wants one thing.

[B]

Only and when he he's done he'll leave you lonely he'll murder your love.