Broadway Breakdown: "Tony Award Snubs" (w/ Ben Rimalower)

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Ben Rimalower
Release Date: June 1, 2023

Episode Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown is a deep dive into the world of Tony Award "snubs"—those legendary performances, creatives, and shows that, for reasons sometimes baffling and sometimes political, did not make the Tony nominations cut. Host Matt Koplik teams up with actor/writer/podcaster Ben Rimalower for a passionate, foul-mouthed, and encyclopedic tour through Broadway’s overlooked excellence, blending hot takes, juicy behind-the-scenes tidbits, and robust theater geekery. They pull from personal favorites and widely debated omissions stretching from the 1950s to today, all while bringing their idiosyncratic charisma and plenty of four-letter words.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Constitutes a “Snub”?

• Matt’s philosophy: He only considers something a true "snub" if he can envision someone to swap out (“I try not to go too hard on them unless I can think of someone who was nominated that I would probably replace.”) [05:34]
• Both agree that going deeper into history makes it easier to “play God” with nominations, versus recent years where the wounds are fresher.

2. Ben’s Podcast & Broadway Memory Flubs

• Ben shares hilarious interactions on his own Sondheim podcast, including being "gaslighted" by James Lapine about Ellen Foley in Into the Woods:
  • “James Lapine gaslighting me is the best thing that happened to my career in 2022.” [04:41]
• Matt references the unreliability of theatrical oral history and memory, highlighting that “no one person can really be an authority.” [04:10]

3. Recent and Personal Snubs

Rachel Bay Jones in Pippin (2013)

• Ben’s “never recovered from this” snub, and both agree Victoria Clark’s Cinderella slot could have been hers. [07:44–09:36]
• “I thought Rachel did such a wonderful job with the role of Catherine. That is a part that has often sort of blended into the scenery, and she really found a way in there…” —Matt [08:36]

Amy Spanger (Kiss Me Kate) and Sheri Renee Scott (Aida) (2000)

• Both omitted from Best Featured Actress while others from their shows were recognized: “It’s especially snobby because [Spanger’s] the only principal...not nominated.” —Matt [11:11]
• They'd both replace Laura Benanti (Swing) and Anne Hampton Callaway (Swing) to slot them in.
• Reflection on “career nominations”—i.e., Benanti’s early noms anticipating future prominence [14:27–17:21]

Anna Harada in Avenue Q (2004)

• “In some ways, the heart and soul of Avenue Q” —Ben [18:17]
• Matt unpacks the difficulty of the role’s racial coding: “It’s a really difficult role...go too far and it does become racist. But the way she was able to handle the comedy was really masterful.” [19:23]

Chip Zien in Into the Woods (1988)

• Ben: “Iconic as the Baker...maybe one of my favorite male musical theater performances ever. Not nominated.” [32:12]
• Matt notes “the Baker has always been an unsung role in that show until recently.” [32:43]

Danielle Ferland (Little Red) Snub, Same Year

• Matt: “She was nominated at the drama desks and outer critics, but not for a Tony.” [33:53]
• Ben notes bizarre double nominations from the “museum-piece” Cabaret revival that could have made space for Ferland. [34:44]

Stephanie Mills in The Wiz (1975)

• Not even nominated: “We've got the hit of the year with this tiny dynamo of a babe singing for her life…” —Matt [78:48]
• They note how both race and age may have influenced the snub.

Isaia Johnson in The Color Purple (2016 Revival)

• Matt: “A role that is near impossible. And yet he found a way...”
• Would swap him in for Christopher Jackson (Hamilton), citing Jonathan Groff and Daveed Diggs as stronger presences. [93:07–94:24]

4. Historic and Technical Snubs

She Loves Me—Best Score (1964)

• Not nominated: “They did not nominate She Loves Me: Stupid. It's stupid.” —Matt [21:28]

Chita Rivera in West Side Story (1958)

• “Truly the number one of all time...iconic role, iconic show, did not get nominated.” [62:50]
• Ben and Matt break down the “domino effect” of Tony wins and losses cascading through future years. [64:31]

Barbara Cook in Candide (1957)

• Did not get a nomination for “Glitter and Be Gay”—widely regarded as one of the most difficult and iconic songs in Broadway history. [66:47]
• Matt: “If you're in doubt, y'all listen to her Glitter and Be Gay. It is...still the best version of that song.”

Non-Performance Technical Snubs

• Matt suggests Bruce Coughlin’s orchestrations for Wild Party and George C. Wolfe’s direction should have been recognized over, for example, the Music Man 2000 orchestrations. [48:35]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tony Philosophy:
  “I don’t want us to use technical savvy. I want this to be a sea change!” —Ben, on hacking the Tony website to retroactively nominate Rachel Bay Jones [09:36]

• On Career Resilience:
  “Even if you do [take away a nomination], Ben, [Victoria Clark] can look in the mirror and say, I'm still Victoria Clark. And that is enough for her and me.” —Matt [10:44]

• On the Tony Voter Process (Industry Tea):
  “It’s just old, drunk, blind, rich, white people who vote for shows they didn’t even see...not based on actual lived experience.” —Ben [22:00]

• On Carousel (1994), Michael Hayden & Sally Murphy:
  “That it would not have soared as much as it did if it weren’t for Michael and Sally, and they should have been recognized.” —Matt [74:28]

• On Forbidden Broadway & Fandom:
  Extended riff on favorite Forbidden Broadway sketches and parodies.
  “My favorite Patty impression is Tony De Buono in that ‘Anything Goes’ one.” —Ben [30:08]

• On the Emotional Stakes:
  “I have separation anxiety. I have insecure attachments. I have abandonment issues. And Lori Beechman should have been here. I needed her here. I need her now.” —Ben [59:11]

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-------| | 00:02 | Matt’s intro, setting the “snubs” theme | | 04:41 | James Lapine “gaslighting” anecdote | | 07:44 | Rachel Bay Jones in Pippin (2013) snub discussion | | 11:11 | Amy Spanger & Sheri Renee Scott (2000) discussion | | 18:17 | An Harada in Avenue Q commentary | | 21:28 | She Loves Me best score snub | | 32:12 | Chip Zien in Into the Woods | | 33:53 | Danielle Ferland snub | | 62:50 | Chita Rivera (Anita, West Side Story) | | 66:47 | Barbara Cook (Candide) | | 72:10 | Sally Murphy & Michael Hayden (Carousel) | | 78:00 | Stephanie Mills (The Wiz) | | 93:07 | Isaiah Johnson (Color Purple) nominated over Hamilton supporting actor | | 96:06 | John Doyle’s Color Purple work and reputation | | 99:27 | Closing out with Chita Rivera tribute (song) |

Additional Snub Highlights

Other Names & Roles Mentioned:

• Loretta Devine (Dreamgirls)
• Mandy Gonzalez (In the Heights)
• John Cameron Mitchell (Secret Garden)
• Dorothy Loudon (Noises Off)
• Leah DeLaria (On the Town)

Musings on the “Domino Effect” of Tony Choices:
Ben and Matt analyze how Tony choices, influenced by career momentum and “makeup” awards, can shape—or misshape—Broadway history. [64:31]

Episode Tone & Style

Matt and Ben’s bantering is sharp, hyper-referential, profane, but always affectionate toward their subject. The show balances encyclopedic knowledge with irreverent humor. They “nerd out” on categories (“I’m such a fan of Ann Harada, but…”), dig into Tony voting arcana, and aren’t afraid to throw shade at productions or performances that didn’t deserve their recognition.

Ending: Diva Dedication & Next Up

The show closes by playing Chita Rivera, symbolically giving her the flowers she never received for West Side Story:

“Let's give Ms. Chita Rivera our closeout since she didn't get the goddamn nomination for West Side Story.” —Matt [99:42]

Next week: Final Tony predictions episode to coincide with the 2023 awards.

For More:

• Listen to the full episode on Broadway Breakdown’s Podcast page
• Follow Matt Koplik on Instagram @mattkoplik
• Find Ben Rimalower on social media @benrimalower and check out his podcast “Giants in the Sky” on Broadway Podcast Network