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- [00:18]
A
Why not?
- [00:19]
B
Think of the prestige. No.
- [00:20]
A
Think of the respect.
- [00:21]
B
No, no, no.
- [00:22]
A
Think of the Tony.
- [00:30]
B
Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And we're back on our Tony bullshit because, believe it or not, the nominations are less than a month away. The season has officially started to wrap up. And thus we called dear friend, your cunty uncle. Please welcome back Gold Derby's own Sam Ekman. Hi, Sam.
- [01:04]
A
Hi, Matt. I'm so glad to be the cunty uncle.
- [01:07]
B
Cunty Uncle Sam, baby.
- [01:09]
A
I'm always on my Tony bullshit, so it's. I'm glad to be here. It's the appropriate time as well.
- [01:14]
B
We love to have you on your Tony bullshit too. And this is different because your first entry onto the podcast was more about, like, helping our listeners learn how to predict. And then this, your second one was just like feet to the flame. The Tonys are in four days. Who be winning. And that was a lot of high stakes. This is a little different. We're not necessarily making bold predictions so much as we're kind of having a little bit of column A, column B. We're talking about now that the se. Everything has started performances this season. Not everything has opened. You and I haven't seen everything yet, but we are healthily into that point of April where the conversation's getting a little more real and things are starting to crystallize. So I wanted to chat with you about what you've seen and what you've heard and where we both sort of feel like the wind is blowing in certain ways. Categories and with certain shows, I guess. First up with, let's just start with the big one, because it's technically the biggest category and yet it's the most underwhelming this year, I find. Which is best musical underwhelming, you say? Yeah, I mean, hot take, I think.
- [02:17]
A
What do you mean you want more than six shows that are eligible for a category? God, you're so demanding.
- [02:23]
B
I feel like I needed to be more specific to my genie a few years ago when I was like, God, 13 new musicals this season. I should have been like, 10. 10? 10 would be great. Nine or 10. I don't need. I don't. Not five, not six, nine or 10. That'd be great. But sort of where do. What are we feeling right now on this April 6th that we record about best musical, because I feel like for a long time, everyone's just going, well, it's gonna be two strangers by default. Because no one knows what those final four are gonna look like. And we're starting to know what they're gonna look like.
- [02:55]
A
Yeah. I feel pretty comfortable saying what my four nominees will be. The winner is a little bit more of an iffy thing, but I do feel like the nominees will likely end up being two strangers. The Lost Boys, Schmigadoon and Titanique.
- [03:14]
B
I would agree with that.
- [03:15]
A
It's hard to see the others. I mean, Queen of Versailles is gone. Rip her. And I don't think that's going to make enough of an impact to be remembered as a closed musical. Getting in. Many people were not kind to that one. And Beaches, I haven't seen it yet, so I can't comment on what it is, but I think the fact that it's like a limited run that we know is not going to continue afterwards, not going to have a huge commercial life on Broadway, I think is going to hurt its chances, even if it is really good. So it's not completely out of the running. It could open to rapturous reviews and get in, or something else could really fail and Beeches takes its spot. But otherwise, I think the four nominees are pretty likely cemented in stone at this point. It's just a matter of which one of the four gets to pull ahead for the win. Yeah.
- [04:13]
B
I think from what everyone I've spoken to who's either a voter or a nominator, there's. There's no ill will towards two strangers so much as that. I think a lot of people I had spoken to wanted to, like a little bit more than they did. And there was a bit of. I don't want to vote for it because it's the only option. So it's not that they're rooting for it to not win so much as they're like, I would like to have options. So this spring is very much like Lost Boys, Titanique. Like, please just work so I can. I can have variety. That would be really nice. So if I vote for two strangers, it's because I want to, not because I have to.
- [04:51]
A
Yeah.
- [04:51]
B
Which I think is fair.
- [04:52]
A
Yeah. I don't know anyone who's, like, hating on two strangers. I just think as a Tony frontrunner, it's a little bit of a weaker frontrunner than we've seen. It would be very easy to overtake it because I just. I think a Lot of people have it at number one because it's an original score, it's very charming, and it has that sort of intimate, character driven feel that a lot of best musical winners have had recently, like Kimberly Akimbo, maybe Happy Ending, but I don't know that I feel the same real passion for it as musicals like that because I don't think it's, you know, it's a very cute kind of like rom com story and I think the two actors are great. I think I had a really good time. I don't think it's necessarily doing anything quite as new or as different as maybe those shows did that people are lumping it into the same category. So I think everyone's kind of waiting for, like, is there going to be another one that really knocks us out of the park? Because I don't think it's. Two Strangers is, I would say the frontrunner right now, but is not an unbeatable front runner.
- [06:05]
B
Yeah, I think what helps with something also like a Kimberly Akimbo or a band's visit or a maybe Happy Ending is there's Kimberly Akimbo and Banzos that had creative teams that were tried and true in the Broadway community or came from like, Atlantic Theater Company and maybe Happy Ending had Michael Arden and people that could be sort of the face of the underdog campaign for it. Whereas Two Strangers, there's really nobody involved that's like a major force in the Broadway community. Sam Toty has become a very liked person in the community, but there's no history with him and no history with the creators in any way. So I agree with you. What Two Strangers has going in its favor is it is original, it is a solid show, and it does have that small charm piece to it which a lot of best musical winners the last 10 to 12 years have really had going for them. But you could also argue that, like, there's an underdog element to the other three as well. Just even if they're bigger, they also are not sure things. And that's sort of what helps any of them, I would say, is that it's rare that the voters for Best Musical vote for the sure thing anymore. It used to be like, oh, what's the biggest hit? You're gonna win it. And now it's like, no, which one really needs our vote, which will, like, close a week after Tony's if we don't vote for it?
- [07:30]
A
Yeah, they're very aware of, like, which musicals will probably be okay if they don't win and then which ones really kind of need the box office boost and that stamp of approval with their vote.
- [07:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, that sort of goes into what you and I spoke about on your very first episode, what I did last year with the myths and trends. There's always the myth of the elusive road voter at the Tony Awards. So people always go, what's going to tour? Well, that, those that road vote, they're going to really, you know, tilt the scale and it's like a. They're actually not as big a percentage of the body as you think they are. They're about 10%, which were 800 plus voters. That's 80 people, which is nothing.
- [08:08]
A
It used to be a higher percentage, which is why that became known. They used to be around 25 to 27% of the voting body. And they haven't been that for a long time.
- [08:18]
B
Not for a long time. Probably not since Avenue Q days. My assumption is post Avenue Q they were like, we need to expand this body. Because also those road voters really mad when they did vote for Avenue Q and Avenue Q said, psych, we're going to Vegas. I mean, a Hamilton or a Dear Van Hansen, sure. But those were such undeniable hits, both commercially and critically, that you. That they were never not going to get the vote. Something like A Fun Home or A Gentleman's Guide or A Band's Visit have gone up against bigger musicals and won. And that helps them with the. With going on the road.
- [08:51]
A
Yeah, and because like, you know, it was like Gentleman's Guide versus Beautiful, the Carole King musical. Right.
- [08:57]
B
And Aladdin. Sure, sure.
- [09:00]
A
But like, we're talking with the nitty Gritty here.
- [09:03]
B
Exactly who it really came down to for sure.
- [09:04]
A
And if you're a presenter, like a road presenter, like, I would be like, well, I know I can sell the Carole King musical. I can't sell Gentleman's Guide to, you know, whatever regional market I'm in unless it has that stamp of approval of Tony Winter best Musical. Otherwise it doesn't really have a successful tour. Maybe I'm not gonna book it.
- [09:26]
B
You know, it's also, it's weird. This is a year where best musical could go to a jukebox or non original score musical for the first time since really since Jersey Boys. I'm not counting Moulin Rouge because that's a Covid year. They were all jukebox musicals. Yeah, but that's always. Yeah, that's always been a detriment for best musical winners of if you're a jukebox musical, you could maybe get close to Winning, but you probably won't. The argument was that the year of Strange Loop, when the ceremony ended, everyone thought going in, thought it was going to be Strangeloop versus 6. And it turns out it was Strangeloop versus MJ. And MJ probably got very close to winning and ultimately didn't because it was a jukebox musical.
- [10:11]
A
Yeah, I think MJ got very close. There were also people last year saying Hell's Kitchen was going to win. But I always am like the broken record every Tony season. And I'm sure producers don't like hearing it, but it's just really hard right now as we see with the winners to win as a musical that has a pre existing score. I think that voters are really aware of what they are saying is the best. What they're lifting up with that award, because I think best musical's really the one from the season. Oftentimes that is remembered long after. And that kids in high school that are coming into the theater realm, that's like what they pay attention to. The Tonys are a huge advertising tool. And I think there has been a concerted effort, you know, the last 15 years to say we want to uplift our own people, like our own composers and lyricists who are creating new musicals. And it's not. We don't want to look back at our list of winners, and it's just pop artists and rock artists in there. So that has really been a deciding factor. Like, everyone last year was like, it's definitely Hell's Kitchen. It's definitely Hell's Kitchen. And there was like a. I feel like there was a scramble of everyone in the industry of like, okay, we can't do that. There's stuffs in the Outsiders, like, which is it gonna be? And I think the Outsiders felt a little bit more cool. And so that eventually got the vote. But they. I feel like everyone was like, hell's Kitchen has a lot of buzz right now. We can't go that way. Like, we can give it other trophies, but we' not going to go that way. Stuffs are outsiders, folks.
- [11:52]
B
Yeah, I. I will not name names, but I will say I. I have three different voters say to me during that, like, the week leading up to when their ballots were cast, they literally go, I can't bring myself to vote for Hell's Kitchen. I just. I didn't like it. I. I'm not for jukebox musicals. And they're like. They literally said what you said. They're like, for me, it's down to sus. And Outsiders. And then they literally said, I have to think which vote will go the farthest. Like, which show will. Like which one am I doing? Like, you know, throwing a drop of water on a giant forest fire or which one actually will create change. And which I think is also a lot of people going. I think Outsiders is, as you said, the cooler one. I think people were impressed by the production of it all. When Donya Taymor won for Outsiders, that's when I went, oh, they're going to win. This is happening now. And people didn't believe me, but I said, just you watch Henry Huggins. This is a spamalot year where all you need to win is director and you're fine. But, yeah, no, that's. It's a true thing. And it's important for people to remember which, again, two Strangers and even Lost Boys gives them a little bit of an edge over our other two potential nominees. But I don't know. This is a weird year. Anything can happen.
- [13:08]
A
Yeah. Cinco has written a few new songs for Schmigadoon, and it's not like pop music, so maybe some people won't hold that as much against the show.
- [13:19]
B
But will it be enough for them to be eligible for score?
- [13:23]
A
Don't know. We'll see. When. When I see it, we'll figure it out. But, you know, Aladdin convinced them that they had enough material for score, and that wasn't. I still not sure there's 50% of the musical's new material for this.
- [13:39]
B
I think they counted a few of the songs that Ashman wrote that weren't in the movie, and it's like, yeah, that's like.
- [13:45]
A
We've seen Proud of, like, Proud of your boy already.
- [13:47]
B
Yeah.
- [13:48]
A
Existed and stuff.
- [13:48]
B
Exactly. And. And High Adventure and all that. Stuff like that. Like those. Those songs were written 30 years ago. But, yeah, I digress. Okay, so that's musical talk to what. What's a category you'd like to get into for a second?
- [14:02]
A
Well, we could just go to the actual big one with the huge race, which is musical revival.
- [14:08]
B
Oh, sure. Yeah. I was gonna talk about Play Revival as well, because that one actually has the most contenders of any major category this season. But yeah, let's do musical revival.
- [14:18]
A
That one. I've been thinking, like, the Tony producers should really hold that to be the last category of the night, because I do feel like that is the big battle that everyone is going to be looking at for sure.
- [14:31]
B
It's not going to be helped by the fact that Jellicoe Ball won a bunch of stuff last year when it was eligible. Which means Ragtime is going to win Drama Desk and Outer Critics Circle and most likely Drama League, which gives the impression that it's going to sweep, especially because people online don't, A, don't know that these are different voting bodies and B, don't know that jellicopal was eligible last year. So they're just going to have a lot of opinions on Instagram.
- [14:54]
A
Yeah. And I mean, look, those two shows are both, in my opinion, exceptional. And I think they would make either one a great winner. But I think that is like, I feel like Ragtime and Cats, the Jellicle Ball will be leading the nominations more than any other shows. One of those is gonna get the most nominations. And so even other revivals like Rocky Horror show and Chess have the potential to get more nominations than several of the new musicals.
- [15:28]
B
It's true, I was being very bullish about Chess's chances about two months ago. I think that it might do a little bit better than I originally anticipated. But I do ultimately think that Rocky Horror is the third slot there for revival.
- [15:46]
A
Yeah, I'm guessing Rocky Horror too. But there's, you know, we haven't seen. I haven't seen it yet. There's. I think Rocky Horror is kind of a double edged sword in that it is such a beloved cult classic. And also because of that, people will have certain expectations going in and I'm hopeful and believe that Sam Pinkleton is going to meet them because he's awesome. But you never know. People could just be like, I have my set idea of what I want from the show and maybe it's different from what they're doing. We have to see how it gets, what the reactions are.
- [16:20]
B
I'm glad you said that. I literally had that exact conversation with someone the other day because that's the thing about. As one thing we have been sort of skirting around is that again, all of the shows we're talking about have either opened and closed or they're fully open or they're in previews. So there's talk online about them. And Rocky Horror's preview process has been a fascinating one because the buzz is all over the place. There are people who are like, they've pulled it off. This works. It's so good. People who are like, I don't what I just saw. But that's not my Rocky Horror. And it's truly, as you said, this property has been around for decades. It lives in various mediums and people have their own history with it and as you said, what they want from it. And especially when it comes to Rocky Horror on Broadway, that's a very specific blend that's not going to please everyone. And in fact, it's ironic that so many people talk about this one and compare it to the last Broadway revival, because if you read the reviews of the last Broadway revival, those reviews are not favorable. They're all kind of going, eh, I don't, you know, everyone in it's so talented. But I don't think Rocky Horror should be on Broadway. Not like this anyway. And now, 25 years later, we look back and we go, what a good revival that was.
- [17:33]
A
Right? I think, you know, that's an area where the critics and audiences and industry diverged because a lot of people look back at that 2000 revival and go like, this was perfect Broadway Rocky Horror. And lift that up as like this Roundabout version has to match that. So you never know. I think I'm predicting it as the third slot there.
- [17:59]
B
Oh yeah, for sure. I still am. Yeah. My other thing is just Roundabout tends to get that nomination even when the production is not one of their best ones. Which is not to say anything about Rocky Horror, But Roundabout has had some under baked revivals in the past that have still managed to get that nomination. And from all accounts, this Rocky Horror is not under baked. It is good even if it's not everyone's expectation for it. So I think that's definitely enough. And the big thing about it that I hear is that Luke Evans is that bitch and does command as Frank N. Furter and will be the third Locke in actor in a musical for sure. Which is nice to hear.
- [18:39]
A
I mean, so far she looks great, so I'm excited.
- [18:43]
B
Yeah. I think it's still unclear if we have four or five slots for best actor in a musical this year, but I do think the three that are
- [18:51]
A
locked, based on what I'm hearing like Lost Boys, I think they're only pushing LJ Bennett as the lead. And I think unless Roundabout decides to try and make Brad and Janet leads and push Andrew Durand up, which is not what happened before, then we only have eight guys eligible for lead actor and musical.
- [19:16]
B
So Constantine is going to be considered featured then for Titanic, do we think?
- [19:21]
A
I believe he is. We'll see what happens. But I think he's going featured. We'll see. You can come back to this after it opens and say how wrong or right I am.
- [19:32]
B
Oh, they love to do that for all of us. Wait, so it's Chess, right? Chess wrong time. That's four. Rocky Horror Mix 5, Spingadoon, Lost Boys, Two Strangers. So, yeah, I guess if Constantine ends up getting put in lead, then that's nine and we get five. Otherwise it's four. And I do think that Joshua, Henry, Sam, Tooty and Luke would be, in my opinion, the locks, which means that fourth nominee for lead actor, which means the fourth slot, I think, is sort of a cage match amongst a few very talented men.
- [20:07]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:08]
B
So we'll see. We'll see.
- [20:09]
A
Well, then, it's all up to you, Titanique. Put Constantine in lead and we'll get a fifth slot.
- [20:14]
B
Let's get that fifth slot, baby. Come on, you know what to do. That man fills out those pans so nicely. Let's. Let's. He does what we all want, what we all need. Although if you put him in Featured, that helps, because featured actor in a musical, I think is weirdly kind of a. Weird. It's a weird one this year where I'm not. Because a lot of the major contenders are still kind of sowing their oats in their preview process. It's hard to know who really has the juice to get a nomination. And there's a lot of different opinions from reports from, like, Titanique, Rocky, Harsh Megadoon of what feature actors are, and Lost Boys, even, of which featured actors are really popping off the stage. Which means, I feel like we could get a situation like 2024 where it's like, oh, we got two guys from outsiders. Like, one of maybe I didn't expect, or one I didn't expect. Like, it's. It's. There's always one or two people that get in there that are not. Not worthy, just not who you expected, you know?
- [21:14]
A
Well, I think it's, you know, sometimes a really dominant show can pull in a lot of nominees, which, if we want to talk about featured actor and segue there right now, I think that is a category where that is going to happen. Because I was actually just, like updating my predictions for that and trying to see who I thought would be in or out, which is, again, hard because so many of them haven't opened. But I feel like it's a place where Cats, the Jellicle Ball could get two to three nominations very easily.
- [21:48]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [21:50]
A
I know the industry sentiment is very much with Andre de Shields, and so he's sitting atop my predictions, and he just comes in like this grand deity, I swear to God.
- [22:04]
B
Deuteronomy, Gay Aslan in that show.
- [22:07]
A
Deuteronomy's entrance When I saw it lasted, it must have lasted 10 minutes. The MC just kept going. And Andre, like, was like, I'm gonna take a minute, and was dancing his ass off up there, and everyone was just eating it up. And I don't think there's, like. I don't think there's many performers. There's like, maybe a handful of performers who could just come in and bop around on stage and have the whole audience going nuts. And he's one of them. But I was really surprised. I love Sydney James Harcourt, and I think he could get in. And he has a lot of stage time. He has a lot of presence. And then Junior LaBeija, who's a legendary ballroom figure, I, like Gus the theater cat, ended, and I was in total tears. I did not expect that. And I fell in love with this production at Pac. And there were things I really worried about, wouldn't translate, which proved to be unfounded. I loved it again on Broadway. But what Junior is doing in this moment, in that intimate of a theater, resonates so much more powerfully than the way he did it at Pac. It's really, really beautiful. And I was like, he somehow, with Gus the theater cat, created a moment that is just as, like, emotionally effective as memory. To me, I absolutely loved it. And I was like, maybe he also gets in.
- [23:38]
B
He really could. I think the thing about Gus that is to its benefit for a nomination, but might not be quite enough for the award is that it's not. It is not a burn the house down kind of song like memory. And it's not. And Gus is not on stage as much as Deuteronomy. But what he has is in all of this chaos and glitter and disco magic, Gus is one of the few quiet moments where everything just stops. And it proves that this is not a production that's all surfaced. Like, there's real depth and a taste level of knowing when to pull back. And he does command the room and the attention. And there's a historical precedent. The actor who originated Gus in 1982 was nominated for a Tony. So it can happen again. Yeah, it can happen again.
- [24:25]
A
Yeah, it's the unexpected one, because, as you said, it's not the big flashy number, but he just hits you right in the feels. I never wanted it to end well.
- [24:35]
B
So that's the thing I was talking with someone else about when it came to featured performances. I feel like you and I spoke about this last year. I have found that when it comes to featured performances in musicals, both actor and actress, it tends to go back and forth depending on the season. But usually the winner as a featured performer either has like a big song and that actually can be Augusta Theater Cat or they set a mood which is ultimately like an Andre in Hadestown or a Danny Burstein in Moulin Rouge. And Andre kind of does it again in Cats of like setting the mood. Also, I forgot the name of the performer who plays Monkistrap, but he also does that for sure.
- [25:12]
A
Yes.
- [25:12]
B
Does that all show long. And that that can be one of those random surprises where people go, oh, I never thought about that. But I guess does hold it all together. It's like, yup. And people notice. People notice. I think the biggest issue Katz Jellicoe Ball will have when it comes to votes is not the marketability of it, but because that the energy in that theater is so party vibe. And not everyone in the audience is going to be a community member of. Of electricity. They will be their own shrieking banshee of support. I think some older voters will be at cast and will be annoyed by audiences like that and will then have a grudge against Jellicoe Ball. But that's a story for actual wins, not nominations. That's not where we're at yet. But I'm just, I'm as somebody who also very much is pro Jellicle Ball, I don't want listeners to think that I am have blinders on. I'm very aware that like it does have things going against it for certain voters. But we had someone in the Discord the other day say that they are convinced that Bryce Pinkham is going to win for Chess, which I think is a very bold prediction. I. I'll be interested to see if he gets in with, as you said, Ragtime and Cats, kind of having all of these potential options. And then we also don't really don't know how Schmigadoon or Titanique is going to land with voters. Like those are. Those shows are sort of like a goldmine of features nominees as well.
- [26:39]
A
Yeah, I had Bryce in my top five, I think earlier in the season when not as much was opened. But it's a tough. I don't know it's a tough lineup. I do think. I don't know that I see him winning for that just because I don't think the show is as strong as some of will be as strong of a contender as like Ragtime or Cats. And I think it could miss out in several key categories. And I think if your show is not one of the really dominant ones of the awards ceremony, then you really have to be, like, an undeniable force that people just can't say no to, because otherwise people end up just checking off the show that they really like down the line in many cases. I could definitely see Bryce getting in. He's a past nominee. When I was at Chess, the audience, they ate him up. Everyone was laughing at him. So I know a lot of people, a lot of people don't like the modern references that they put in the Arbiter's new script. But he commits to the bit and he's really entertaining and he has a couple really great numbers and he gives it his all. I thought he was great.
- [27:58]
B
He's such a talented man. I liked what he did with his number of the Arbiter. And, yeah, no, he gets a lot of material that I don't enjoy, but he absolutely does his best to sell it. I'm not saying he wouldn't get nominated. While I did not enjoy Chess, I'm also, as I said, if I'm not putting my blinders on for Jellicoe Ball, I'm also choosing not to put my blinders on for Chess. I did not enjoy it. And interestingly enough, this is another case where Bryce is a featured player who does set the tone for the show. And the question is, do you like said tone? I did not, but plenty of people did. I think, as you said, Bryce would have to kind of be a sort of Stephanie J. Block and Cher show situation. That's, I think, the last time somebody won for a musical that wasn't in the main categories and that was a ultimately star vehicle bio, musical. There's a. There's a metric in which voters could measure SJB's performance of how much like Cher. Does she remind me of Cher? So if Chess is not a revival nominee and doesn't get a book nomination, I think in order for Bryce to win, he would have to be one of, like, a slew of other nominations that the show has. Like, they would have to get nominated for Nick and Leah and orchestrations and lighting and choreography. Like, they wouldn't. If they were not going to get a revival. They'd have to get like, five or six. Under the line. Under the. Under the line. Below the line. That's fine.
- [29:19]
A
Below the line.
- [29:20]
B
Thank you. Thank you. He works for Gold Derby.
- [29:22]
A
That's the industry term for the design and crafts.
- [29:25]
B
For design, for mostly tech stuff, things that are not director or picture. Let's talk for a quick second about Best Play revival. And by quick second, I mean, five seconds. Because this is of all the big, big ones of the play. Musical, musical revival, play, revival. Play. Revival has the most options. It's going to be the only five nominee categories. Of those top four, at the beginning of the season, I felt like it was pretty clear what they were going to be. And then it got less clear and then it got clear again, and now it's becoming a little less clear again. Had who I thought were locks. I'm starting to think some of my locks may not be locks anymore. Especially now that we're. So we're recording this on the day that Becky Shaw is due to open. Word of mouth on Becky Shaw is extremely strong. This will be considered a revival. Death of a Salesman opens later this week as well. I see Becky Shaw the day before this episode comes out. I've seen Death of a Salesman. I have yet to see proof or Joe Turner's coming gone. But those I think are the only other revivals I have yet to see. But I don't know. I feel like I have what I think are my three locks, but I also not confident in that either.
- [30:37]
A
I think if I'm trying to call locks, this one is so competitive. I think there's only two locks which are. Which are Death of a Salesman and Oedipus.
- [30:48]
B
Okay. I think I can. I can handle that.
- [30:51]
A
I don't like every. I want there to be more locks because I love a lot of these shows, but this is a really competitive race this year.
- [31:00]
B
Yeah, I had a very strong feeling about Marjorie Prime's chances in December. And now I am getting very sad that, like, that's a show that could actually blank on May 5, which would be crazy.
- [31:12]
A
After I saw Marjorie Prime, I was like, this should absolutely win revival. I thought it was some of the most exquisite acting. Nominate this whole company. It was incredible. But now I'm like, oh, this closed so long ago. Are they going to forget it? With all of these new things that are top of mind, especially with featured
- [31:33]
B
actors being perhaps the most competitive category of the season.
- [31:37]
A
Most competitive acting category, for sure. Yeah.
- [31:40]
B
I've just. I've just. Not only are there so many options, there are so many good options. It's like, the fuck do we do? Because before March and they announced that Cynthia Nixon and June Squib are going to be eligible for featured, I was like, oh, okay, great. Like, they'll most likely get in. Fantastic. And Betsy Atom for Liberation. Here we go. And then, you know, people are talking about Mary Louise Burke in the Ballisters. They're talking about Linda Eamon for Becky Shaw. They're talking about Carrie Young for proof. I've now seen Salesman. I do think Larry Metcalf will get nominated for Salesman, where she will definitely be put in feature. That's where Linda always is. And it becomes. It's just sort of like, well, fuck, like, who of my loves are not gonna make it in?
- [32:25]
A
Right? I think they should have push June Squib into lead.
- [32:30]
B
I do, too.
- [32:31]
A
I really think that was a miscalculation in terms of, like, in terms of strategy. I think she would have. You know, that's not guaranteed in lead either, because there's a lot of great women there. But I think she could have cemented a slot there a lot easier. And not saying she won't get nominated. I do think she has a great narrative. She would be the. Like. She would ironically usurp Lois Smith, who originally played Marjorie prime off Broadway as, you know, the oldest. She could be the oldest Tony winner ever if she were to get nominated and win because she's 96, which is just, like, nuts that she's 96 and on Broadway.
- [33:12]
B
I like to think that Lois Smith and June Squibb have a Joan Crawford, Bette Davis relationship going on that no one knows about. And June Squibb is pulling her Joan Crawford moment with the Oscars. It's like getting nominated, beating Lois Smith's record for a role that she had originated. It's just like, so it's absolutely not true. Those two women are absolute, you know, teddy bears. But just like, wouldn't that be great to find out, like, behind.
- [33:37]
A
They should make a fake rivalry?
- [33:39]
B
I Honestly, I think. God, some. Someone get June Squibb's press agent on the phone, because I think this is a great idea. It would be a viral video, and I think it would get. Get nominators to nominate her and then people to actually vote for her.
- [33:53]
A
If you need someone to write snippy little comebacks, we could. Let's just write a script for them and we'll put it in the. We'll put it in the trades.
- [34:03]
B
Absolutely.
- [34:03]
A
As a nice little awards campaign. Remember when Audra and Cherry Jones did that for fakesies when they were up against each other? Who was that in. Was that the year timeout or something? And they had, like, a fake fight.
- [34:18]
B
I love that. I don't remember that. That was the year of Glass Menagerie and Lady Day.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah.
- [34:23]
B
I think it only works for women like that who have nothing to prove because they've done it all, like, You. We can't have the ingenues of mean girls do that to each other because people would take it too seriously. But when it's Audra and Cherry or like, June and Lois, where everyone's like, they would never actually do that because they're the goats, right? Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah. Featured actress, man, I don't know. I'm very scared. I refuse to make a genuine prediction until, like, another two to three weeks from now.
- [34:50]
A
It's. I mean, I have. I have to say, I know some people will think it's like, the boring pick because a character. But, like, Laurie Metcalf shot way out front for me after seeing Death of
- [35:03]
B
a Salesman, yeah, she's definitely getting nominated. I'm still bullish on her winning, but also, I think about it and, like, at this point, I guess Salesman is the front runner for revival now because it's. It'll be playing, it's selling well, it's a good revival. And it's also, like, it is the most directory. Joe Mantello has been in a very long time, and I think that's exciting to people. Like, I think he's kind. He's shot. He has shot up. In my predictions for a director of a play this year because of that,
- [35:36]
A
Yeah, I was totally in the camp. Like, when they announced this, I was like, we just had Death of a Salesman. Like, are we doing. I mean, I love Death of a Salesman. Arthur Miller, you know, I'll read him all day. But I was like, don't we have other things to do? Do we need one? Like, it's always performed. And then I saw this one, and I was like, there are lines of dialogue that I have, like, studied, analyzed, performed, seen, done millions of times. And I felt like I was hearing lines that I had never heard before because it's just. I thought it was, like, a remarkable production of this play. And you're right. Like, Joe Mantello's direction is more like. It's so specific and, like, conceptual. And I was like, oh, wow, this could be it. You know, this play that we thought, like, oh, this again. He's made feel so urgent and new. I think the one thing we should talk about, one thing to note that could hold it back, is that there's the opportunity for voters to reward playwrights in this category because of the. There's a rule now for the classics, quote, unquote, classics that get a Best Revival nomination, even though it's their first time on Broadway, where the writers of said shows appear on the ballot and are eligible to be Tony nominees and winners because they didn't have the opportunity when their play or musical first debuted. And there's a lot of shows like Oedipus and Marjorie prime and Becky Shaw. Becky Shaw. And is there one other one? I'm forgetting every brilliant thing, Bug. So there's a lot of shows up there which, you know, it could be an opportunity to honor a writer. And it's something that feels really new because it hasn't been seen on Broadway. So that could be a really appealing thing for voters.
- [37:38]
B
It's true. I mean, I'm saying this, having I will be seeing Becky shaw in literally 48 hours, so I can make a more clear headed decision about that. But yeah, I think that that definitely helps when it comes to revival. I think it helps a little bit more when it's down to like two options and someone's undecided. They'll go, well, I want to give this playwright their flowers because, you know, as you said, Arthur Miller has had his flowers. But I mean, if it's, if it's not really down to two for some voters, they might just go for Salesman. But I'll see. I mean, I think with something like every brilliant thing, that for me is more of a likelihood for Daniel than the show, I, I feel like it's a, it's a nice play. It's more of a really excellent exercise in community building than it is in, like playwriting. And it's also a really wonderful vehicle for him. So I, I, I don't have him as a lock, but I have him as a likely fourth. Right now, my three locks are for actor in a play are Mark Strong for Oedipus. Oedipus, sorry, we must call it Oedipus. Nathan Lane for Salesman and Lithgow for Giant. And then I have Radcliffe as a most likely contender. And then I keep hearing, speaking of Becky Shaw, I keep forgetting to say his full name, but it's Alden, the guy from Solo.
- [38:59]
A
Alden Ehrenreich. Yeah.
- [39:00]
B
Yes. I keep hearing about his performance and how great he's Great.
- [39:04]
A
Yeah, but he is. I don't think anyone from Becky Shaw will be in lead. I think that will be.
- [39:12]
B
We'll see.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah. I mean, if, if Second Stage didn't push June Squibb to lead for Marjorie prime, they're definitely not pushing anyone to leave.
- [39:19]
B
Maybe they learned their lesson.
- [39:21]
A
Maybe they learned their lesson. Yeah, they're making, maybe they went, oh,
- [39:23]
B
shit, now June may not get nominated. We can have that again.
- [39:28]
A
I do think Alden is the most likely acting nominee from Becky Shaw. He's a definite driving force in it and he's, he's.
- [39:37]
B
I'm a fan of his. I think he's such a unique, specific talent and crazy that, you know, he's as leading man looking as he is and is like. Also has the gift of a comic actor, like a secondary character, which I think is unfair. You can't be pretty like that and also be able to play weirdos. God does not give with both hands. Stop it.
- [40:02]
A
Well, so those are your three locks for lead. Are you not going with then the leading men for Adrien Brody and Jon Bernthal right now?
- [40:12]
B
Well, I did just finish this weekend having seen Dog Day Afternoon, Giant and fear of 13, so. Yeah, that is exactly what I'm saying, Sam.
- [40:21]
A
I have not seen fear of 13 yet, so I can't comment on that.
- [40:25]
B
I wonder if fear of 13 is better when you're closer. Because I had a good seat, but I was a little far away and I wonder if it's a show that thrives on intimacy that premiered at the Donmar, which is like less than 300 seats. This is the Jones, which is 1100. It felt a little. I mean, it's important subject matter, but it felt a little just. I made a joke on my story of took a screenshot from the SNL sketch of the drama club where they're all in black and doing their own self written sketch show for their parents. And it's them being like, wow, yeah.
- [41:01]
A
Mm.
- [41:02]
B
We're 17 and we're so groundbreaking. And the show felt a little bit like that to me, which is a shame because I love it and I love a lot of that cast. But yeah, I'm not predicting Brody, but maybe I'll eat my words, especially if Alden's not considered lead, then Brody could get in. But not John Berthal. Poor John. I think John is doing his darndest in Dog Day Afternoon. I just think that it's such a misconceived production.
- [41:25]
A
I mean, the show is not probably going to get nominated for best play. However, I thought Jon Bernthal was doing really great work and I do think he, even if the play is missing the top category, just like the needs of that role and how emotive he is the whole time, he hardly ever leaves the stage. I do think he could still get a nomination.
- [41:52]
B
I think what will help him is I do think he'll get a Drama League nomination and those tend to be the first ones to come out the bat, which, what Those nominations do is it puts it in people's brains of, oh, are they an option down the line? Should I think about them when I'm casting my nomination ballot? And so that helps someone like him. And I think even if Dog Day Afternoon will not get a best play nomination, I do think that is Liberation, Little Bear Ridge Road, Giant and the Ballisters in exactly that order.
- [42:22]
A
You have Little Bear Ridge Road as
- [42:24]
B
second, maybe Ballistars as second. So, yeah, I would say Liberation, the Ballisters, Giant than Little Bear Ridge Road. I think that's the order of, like, likelihood of winning. But, yeah, that's my. That's my order right now.
- [42:37]
A
I can't decide what to do with my final slot in that one. I do think Liberation, Giant and the Balusters are in for sure. But then I feel like, I don't know, I guess Little Bear Ridge Road has the reviews and it has the Laurie Metcalf of it all, so maybe I should just do that. But I'm like, what if there's. I don't know. They're like, would they remember all the way back to Punch, which feels like this much grander, you know, script.
- [43:06]
B
I mean, I was not a fan of either play, but I do think Little Bear Ridge Road is objectively the better play. But there is. There was that one scene in Act 2 of Punch that just, like, really destroyed me. The one where they're all sitting together in the therapy session.
- [43:22]
A
Yeah.
- [43:23]
B
But ultimately, I think the thing with little bit retro that's making me a little iffy is is that a best play possibility for a nomination that then also gets no nominations anywhere else?
- [43:36]
A
Well, that happens all the time. You know, that's a weird. It's a weird quirk of the Tonys. Yeah. Like the. Now I can't remember the name of it. Tracy Letts, the Minutes was in for best play. It's a weird thing because it happens all the time, because plays and revivals or new works and revivals are split in the top category, but then have to compete against each other everywhere else. So you can have a year that is really heavy towards one or the other, or, like, there's more options that are more well liked in one of those banks. And then so there's just. Whether it's new work or revival, one of the categories just kind of has this one like, oh, this one could only get in here. And it was, like, shoved out and everything.
- [44:21]
B
Every other category, from what I understand with the Ballisters, what helps with the Ballisters is the Manhattan Theater Club. Of it all, David Lindsay Aber is a writer that is very well liked. Has only been nominated for best play once, though, which is crazy. Apparently the play is quite good. And there's. There are opportunities to nominate the cast. So I think that always it. It always helps, even if it's just one or two nominations, to boost them up. But what I was going to say with Dog Day Afternoon, what I think helps Jon Bernthal is even though it's not going to get in for play, I do think it's, if not a lock, a very strong nomination contender for all the tech categories for set, for costumes, for sound, for lighting. And that helps them sort of boost Jon Bernthal up there with all of those nominations. So, yeah, I guess that's what I would say with Bernthal. Something that really interests me is director of a musical. Because I feel like there are. I only have one real lock for me, which is Jellicoe Ball. Just because it's the biggest creative swing of all of these shows. And we know that it lands, for the most part, for everyone. Everything else is sort of like anyone could get pushed out for anyone based on, like, a two nominator difference of opinion, you know, While Ragtime is a very beloved musical, there's a difference of opinion on the success of this revival. Or even how much creative sway this revival even does, which is up for debate. But I also sort of point to last year with Gypsy, with George C. Wolfe not getting nominated for Gypsy. Because there was a difference of opinion of exactly how much he put into that show. So right now I'm thinking Jellicoe Ball, Ragtime, Two Strangers, and then, like, Lost Boys and Schmigadoon. Or like, maybe it's not Ragtime. And maybe Titanique gets in there randomly because they were able to nail the moving from off Broadway to Broadway. Or maybe Lost Boys is such a cluster of fuck that Lost Boys goes out and Ragtime remains. Or like, maybe Sam Pinkleton really does land the plane with Rocky Horror. And it's like Ragtime is out for Rocky Horror, or Schmigadoon is out for Rocky Horror. For me right now, it's just such a puzzle piece with just Jellicle Ball being the only thing I'm willing to put, like, a chip down on.
- [46:46]
A
You know, that is definitely my number one. And I have a hard time seeing the Jellicoe Ball losing director because they. So everything depends on their kind of reinvention of that material. I do think Ragtime. I feel pretty comfortable about Lir getting in it's again, I think Ragtime and Cats will be the two dominant forces of this year's Tonys. And I think enough people love that production that she's getting in. From there, it gets a little shaky, I think. As of right now, I have Rocky Horror, Two Strangers and Lost Boys filling out the category. But all of those have pluses and minuses. We haven't seen Rocky Horror yet, so maybe people will decide he didn't do it. I like 2000 show better. Or maybe it will be brilliant and it'll be everyone's favorite version. We don't know. And then Two Strangers I think is a really tightly directed show. And I really loved how they used how he used the set with just two people. And I think it would be worthy of it. But again, it's a small show. If people think of Two Strangers is so small and there's just two characters, maybe they think that Tim Jackson didn't have as much to do there. They might look at the bigger productions to nominate. And Lost Boys is another big question mark. But I have Michael Arden now has a proven track record. This is a really gargantuan production, so I've heard. So that's in there for now. But I do think Christopher Gattelli, I think, is my next in line if Schmigadoom performs well.
- [48:31]
B
I also what Lier and the director of Two Strangers have going for them as well is that they're both working with turntables. And turntables do quite nicely with direct.
- [48:40]
A
Love a turntable.
- [48:41]
B
We love turning table.
- [48:42]
A
I love a turntable.
- [48:43]
B
I mean, with Dragtime it is technically a donut because the center don't move, just the outer rim, but she do circle, she do twirl. The Two Strangers staging and design, I think is really clever. And I was surprised a few people I was speaking to weren't predicting Two Strangers for scenic design of a musical. I was like, I think that's a lock for a design nomination because I mean, it's not like aesthetically beautiful. It's a lot of white and gray suitcases. But the way that it becomes multiple locations, even if it's not your vote to win, you can't deny that it is creative and well executed.
- [49:20]
A
Yeah, it's a great concept with a really brilliant use of space. I think it. I don't think it's going to win because it's not the quote unquote, like typical thing that wins the biggest, grandest thing does. But it could should still get into scenic design for sure.
- [49:35]
B
Yeah. Every, like, 15 years, we get the set winner. That's not the most set. It's the best set. But that's every 15 years is not a great average. Like, very rarely do the voters actually pick Bob Crowley for once. Usually it's. Usually it's Eugene Lee for Wicked.
- [49:53]
A
Yeah, that's typically what they go with.
- [49:56]
B
Although I guess that leads a more controversial question for you, Sam, which is, is there a world in which we see some Queen of Versailles nominations?
- [50:04]
A
I do think it's getting nominated for things. Tell me baby, listen, I know all the girlies love to hate on this show, and it's the cool thing to do, and it for sure was not my favorite show. However, it's going to pull in nominations. We have, like, if you want to talk set design, I think it's definitely getting into there. It's Dane Laughery. It is a season that doesn't have a lot of big sets that we're just like. We're talking about two strangers. Like, if two strangers got in, you know, if that came in last season, I don't know that it would. It might be on the bubble or not get a scenic design nomination, but there's not a lot this season that are like these big, big, you know, productions. So I do think Queen of Versailles gets in for set. It has a lot of costumes. It has a lot of ornate costumes, you know, in those Marie Antoinette sequences. So it could certainly get in there. And also best score, I do think. I think it's getting into best score. We don't have that many eligible shows for because we don't know, maybe Schmiga June will be able to get into that. Maybe not. But if they're not, we only have two strangers, Lost Boys and Beaches as the musicals other than Queen of Versailles with score. So I feel like they're going to put Stephen Schwartz in for at least having some melodic, you know, Champagne Wishes and Caviar Dreams is at least catchy.
- [51:38]
B
I enjoy that song quite a lot.
- [51:41]
A
I know you do. I know you do.
- [51:43]
B
I'm telling the show that I like from start to finish, to be fair. Make sure you tell your husband that. Sam's husband has fully yelled at me in public because I had the audacity to say that I didn't think Queen of Versailles was the worst thing of all time.
- [51:55]
A
He was not a fan.
- [51:57]
B
I do.
- [51:58]
A
They're not going to put in two strangers and four plays into. There's going to have to be at least one of them because there's not enough new musicals to fill out the category. This is true. So I do think Death of a Salesman probably gets in for score. I think it has a really beautiful, particularly at the beginning and the end of the piece to set the tone and bring you into the world they're creating. And maybe proof will get in as well, depending. But I think I have Queen of Versailles in, like, third or fourth place for score.
- [52:29]
B
Yeah. Wouldn't it be lovely if Marjorie prime got in there as well? I remember Marjorie Prime's music being so lovely.
- [52:35]
A
Yeah. I think the tough thing is with score for plays is there's not a cast recording to listen to. It's a closed show. And so it's hard to remember all of the, like, moments that you might have liked while you saw it so many months later. So I don't know if I know. I'm not predict. I would love Marjorie Prem to get in, but I'm not predicting that to get in.
- [53:03]
B
I would love to see Peter Pan with you, Sam, because I imagine in the second act, when Tinker Bell is dying and Peter Pan says to all the children, clap your hands and. And Tinkerbell will live. The kids are clapping their hands. You just turn to the kids and you go, that's not going to do it. That fairy's dead.
- [53:17]
A
I. I am not a monster. I'm just telling you about. Marjorie prime is one of my top shows this season. Okay, girl, this is.
- [53:25]
B
I'm just talking. I am a innocent young boy, untouched by this girl.
- [53:31]
A
You're not innocent in the least. But that's innocent.
- [53:34]
B
I'm innocent. I am an ingenue. And all I want is something to believe in in this world. And if maybe that is a Marjorie prime best score nomination, Sam, I need you to let me have this. Because when I do eventually get devastated by that not happening, you will be able to say, I told you so. But right now, you can just look at me and go, whatever it takes to get you out of bed in the morning, sweetie.
- [53:56]
A
I didn't hear anything you said after ingenue. Because you're not anjinu anymore. You're a dame.
- [54:04]
B
You come on to my show over my face.
- [54:09]
A
You invited me. I don't know.
- [54:10]
B
I did invite you. So what does it say about me that I asked for this? I asked.
- [54:14]
A
I am. I'm just. I'm not being a monster. I'm not being mean. I'm just saying, in the world of awards predictions, you sometimes AKA always have to kill your darlings. No things I like don't get in all the time. And I'm just, you know, it's. It's the figuring out how a voter's mind is going to work. And I think you're right.
- [54:35]
B
You're right. I was just.
- [54:36]
A
It's going to be tough for them.
- [54:37]
B
Dreaming big for a second a la Marty supreme. But look how that turned out for Marty, you know.
- [54:42]
A
Well, the ballet dancers took him out.
- [54:45]
B
They sure did. I. I think it was an Ariana Grande campaign. I think she said, if my movie can't get nominated for anything, then his movie's not going to win for anything.
- [54:55]
A
And this, I don't think it needed any help from any other campaigns. I think they did it all themselves.
- [55:02]
B
Yeah, no, this is true. This is true. So I'm trying to think of some other categories. Oh, I guess leading actress in a musical. She's weird. Let's talk about.
- [55:12]
A
Yeah, she's here. She's weird. Get used to her. I think
- [55:20]
B
beauty and she's Grace.
- [55:22]
A
We're gonna finally have Mother from Ragtime win a Tony. And we're not talking about wins yet, but I do think. I think she's out front and I think if anyone can take it away, it would be Marla Mandel for Titanique.
- [55:37]
B
So Titanique opens in a week or a little less than a week. The world will turn upside down after this episode comes out and we will have a very different opinion, or maybe the same exact opinions we always had regarding Marla and Titanique. I said this a while ago. If they are able to make it work in that theater, I think they have a good shot at a couple of things because the show itself for me has always worked in this fascinatingly stupid way that a lot of people are able to really appreciate, especially because stupidity is so hard to do well. And you know, when it's being done well, you. You're able to taste the coffee as opposed to the Sanka. And Marla is such the face of that show, both as the lead actress, as a co book writer, co conceive her of the whole thing. And it is sort of this massive achievement on her end. Now, granted, I don't know the last time a leading actress in a musical won for such a boldly comedic performance outside of maybe hello Dolly. But like, there's. Let's not pretend that Marla and Bette Midler are the same people in the same plane of buzz with their shows. Usually there's a little bit of tears involved, little bit of power ballads in act two involved, which. Yeah, listen, I think if BET didn't have that Horace, let me go monologue at the end of Act 1, Tony voters would have said, absolutely not. Give Patty a third Tony now.
- [57:09]
A
Yeah, it's the heart.
- [57:11]
B
Yeah, you need a little bit of that.
- [57:12]
A
Yeah.
- [57:13]
B
And there's no moment in Titanique when Selene looks out to the audience, just goes, it was a very cold day. And I remember the screams, such screams. And the survivor's guilt that I do have no moment like that in Titanique. In fact, she. Spoiler alert. She saves everybody. That's how Titani gets away with what it gets away with. I started to sing very well, but, yeah, no. Mother has a much more emotional journey. And I also just really enjoy Casey. I think she's such a talented actress. I. I don't always feel like Broadway applies her correctly. Because she's a good actress and because she's a good singer, I think a lot of times Broadway go, oh, so you. We can put you in anything. Then it's like, well, she'll do her best to make it work, but, like, you want to put her in things that are right for her. And I think Mother in Ragtime is probably the closest we've had on Broadway for her since, like, Hair Off Broadway since Murder Ballad. But that's a. That's a deep cut. Um, I'm. Wait. I'm.
- [58:17]
A
I just.
- [58:17]
B
I'm waiting for that Tony to happen. And then the next day, the British producers of Next Normal announce that transfer, because for sure they're not going to announce it before the votes. Because, like, if she were to. If they were to announce it before the votes, everyone would be like, well, we can give it to her for that next year.
- [58:32]
A
Yeah, but that never works. That always backfires. And whether it's theater or film, that is a terrible award strategy because people always go, we'll give it to him next time. And then something happens next time and they don't get it.
- [58:46]
B
Yeah. And then you're Glenn close and you're 92 years old without an Oscar in your hand, Right. And you look back and you go, should we have done it then? Should we have given it to her
- [58:54]
A
for the big chill or anything?
- [58:58]
B
I guess she lost Fatal Attraction to Cher. Yeah. Fatal Attraction to Cher. Dangerous Liaisons was to Jodie Foster. They could have given it to her for that.
- [59:07]
A
That for sure.
- [59:09]
B
Yeah. Especially since Jodie was going to win again three years later for the better.
- [59:12]
A
Well, I mean, my more favorite performance from Jodie, that's neither here nor there.
- [59:17]
B
That's also not a hot take, I think Even Jody Fox would be like, yes. Silence of the Lambs, baby. Jody Foster's like, I can't play pinball machines anymore because of the accused. Silence of the Lambs all the way. Okay. Yeah. But we have Casey. I mean, she's out front for sure. I think. I do think Marla is in there. I would argue Christiana Pitts probably for two strangers, most likely for chess. And then number five is tricky for me because people enjoy the vosque. How much they will want to get her in there for Beaches is remains to be seen. Of course, we do have actresses getting in for shows of lesser caliber because we like them. Hello, Donna Murphy and the people in the picture. Sure. In Scandalous, which I saw on opening night, I. I have. I have earned the right to be gay and snippy. Okay. I was. I was there. But like Sarah Chase and Schmigadoon is. She and Alex Brightman are technically considered the leads. But in a show like that where they don't sing for so long, it's hard to know if you really can.
- [60:31]
A
I tentatively have Sarah Chase in there, like, sight unseen. I haven't seen it, but just knowing the structure of that show and that world, it makes me hesitant because she's not playing. Like, everyone around her is going to be so much bigger and more comedic and scene chewy more likely than she is. So that could work against her ultimately.
- [60:54]
B
I'm also not sure what the fuck's going on with Shoshana being in Lost Boys because you ask any person on any day and they'll tell you a different answer of where she should go.
- [61:03]
A
I think she's going featured.
- [61:06]
B
Okay. Godspeed.
- [61:08]
A
But things could change. They haven't made those decisions yet. But the most. I think she's going featured.
- [61:15]
B
Yeah. Bringing the Versailles back into it all. Do we think Kristen is completely out of a nomination?
- [61:24]
A
I don't think she's completely out. I mean, she gets, like, the number that normally would get someone a nomination in this category with that final moment. Even the critics who really hated this show and wrote really negative reviews of Queen of Versailles had nothing but, like, unadulterated praise for her. Specifically in that final number where she just gets to, you know, she's on stage alone. People tried to call it, like, her Rose's turn. I don't know if the song is quite as good as Rose's Turn, but it's that type of emotional moment where she gets to, like, you know, you're
- [62:03]
B
just really, really saying the bold claims today, Sam. You're saying that this time next year from Queen of Versailles may not be as good as Rose's Turn from Gypsy.
- [62:10]
A
It might not be. It might not be. It's open for debate, but it might not be.
- [62:15]
B
The night I saw.
- [62:16]
A
All opinions are valid.
- [62:18]
B
All opinions are valid. My third and final time seeing the show was what was supposed to be Sherri Renee Scott's final performance. She ended up going on a few more times later that week, but it was supposed to be her final performance. I think every homosexual who could get into that theater was in that theater. And she shouts, I will never stop building this house. Right before that song begins. And a gay in the audience started whistling Rose's turn. And 200 of us all just. You just heard, I can't do it right now with. I don't whistle as well. But it was that. And I was in the orchestra with, like, Andy Mantis and Michael Arden, and I feel like. Was Jack Wolfe at that performance? Jack Wolfe might have been at the other one. But just like all these. All these Broadway gays in the. In the center orchestra, you could feel all of us just tense up and slightly turn to the left to, like, where that whistling was coming from. And we're like, who the fuck are you? It's like, we all know it's. That it's applicable. Like, the show has six minutes left and it's Sheri, like, shut your fucking mouth.
- [63:21]
A
Some people are the unprofessionalism. Far too much.
- [63:25]
B
Too much. Thanks to Lauch. Some people don't deserve gay rights, Sam. And that includes that whistler over there. But no, like, it is. It is. I think with her in that role, it is such a mammoth role. And I will give her credit for doing something that is ultimately out of her wheelhouse. I think that's always something to be appreciated with a performer of her level of. Having been known for doing something so well for so long and still with her level of success, choosing a character so different from the things she's done. How successful you find her at that is up to you. Especially if you then also saw Sherry and you have the ability to compare the two. I know you didn't see Sherry, but
- [64:07]
A
I think most Tony nomineers probably also didn't see Sherry.
- [64:10]
B
No, I don't think they did. But the. The thing with Queen of Versailles that was so weird was towards the end of that run, because Sherry was. Went on like four or five times. It sort of became. It weirdly helps the reputation of the show a little bit, but worsened the reputation of Kristen because Everyone's like, huh? With Sheri, you kind of go, maybe there is a show here somewhere. And that's not what you want to hear if you're Kristin Chenoweth.
- [64:35]
A
Well, I think she's not totally out of the running.
- [64:39]
B
No, I don't think so either. But I wanted to make sure I wasn't just being stupid about that.
- [64:43]
A
No. I think, you know, if you were going to, like, draw a diagram of what a typical lead actress in a musical nominee looks like, of, like, what that role has to contain, then I think Kristen fits that mold perfectly and she's like Broadway royalty. I think it depends on how willing they are to overlook maybe their dislike of the show itself and if they moved on from like, like Instagram comments that they didn't agree with too, and if that affected them at all.
- [65:16]
B
Yeah. I also wonder what the narrative is on that backlash now that we're about five or six months past it, if people have a different view of what she, of how it was handled.
- [65:29]
A
Yeah.
- [65:30]
B
And I, I, I asked that with absolutely no baggage attached. I just, I don't know, I feel like whenever it comes to this kind of backlash, there's always sort of a retrospective where people go, huh, did we maybe go too harsh or were we not harsh enough? Stuff like that. Yeah.
- [65:49]
A
And it's also a thing that's really, for the Tonys, specifically in the nomination phase, it's almost impossible to figure out, you know, to gauge what that reaction is, because you're not just asking the industry at large, like, when it comes to the voters, you're asking the, like, 50 to 60 nominators, which is why sometimes you have these choices that are very singular in the Tony nominations, and they go against the grain sometimes. It just depends on the makeup of the people in it. All you need is really a handful of them to be like, I don't care about any outside controversy. And so I'm just voting on performance alone. And then Kristen gets in.
- [66:38]
B
I mean, hello, Nicole Scherzinger last year. Right. Of just Voters didn't care.
- [66:43]
A
William Ivy Long.
- [66:44]
B
William Ivy Long.
- [66:47]
A
It's just the one nomination for Diana. They didn't care.
- [66:51]
B
They did not care. And is it the only nomination that show deserved? Who's to say? I, I feel like that show deserves nothing and the world. At the same time, I adore it
- [67:02]
A
deserved its own new special category, Best Most unforgettable Theatrical Extravaganza. We will all be talking about you for a long time award.
- [67:15]
B
I just think you can call it Best Most Diane yes.
- [67:20]
A
Best. Most.
- [67:21]
B
Best Most. Diana, the winner of best most is. Okay, that's gonna be.
- [67:27]
A
Davy Jones is the Most.
- [67:28]
B
Is that Marcia Brady that you just quoted?
- [67:31]
A
What else would it be? Come on. Okay, I'll go first because I'm the prettiest.
- [67:35]
B
I never heard of a George Glass at our school, but that's actually going to be my new Tony category. That doesn't exist. Best Most. And it can be applied to anything former designer or musical or play in and of itself.
- [67:49]
A
I want Credit. I'm taking 10%.
- [67:52]
B
10% of nothing is still nothing. Well, the moment it becomes merchandise, you'll get 10% for sure.
- [67:59]
A
Great. Thank you. I'll make a hat as soon as we're done.
- [68:03]
B
Oh, look, you made a hat. Did we talk about best actors in a play? I don't think we did.
- [68:07]
A
We didn't. I don't think.
- [68:10]
B
Who do you currently have in your running?
- [68:13]
A
Right now, my lineup, subject to change, is Leslie Manville, Carrie Coon, Susanna Flood, Ayo Edebiri, or I always say her name wrong. I apologize. And Rose Byrne.
- [68:26]
B
Okay. Oh, wait. So what is this scoop on Fallen Angels? What have we been hearing this?
- [68:34]
A
Well, the scoop is that there hasn't been much buzz because for some reason they've done no advertising for the show. So it's flown under the radar despite having Rose Byrne and Kelli o'. Hara.
- [68:46]
B
No advertising? What is this, a Scott Rudin production?
- [68:50]
A
But I've heard from the few people I know who've seen previews, they said it is like a very funny, tight 90 minutes, and it's a riot.
- [69:00]
B
Amazing.
- [69:00]
A
I didn't get much more than that, but I'll find out next week. But I'm just thinking Rose Byrne is still riding high on her Oscar nomination. She's in kind of a sweet spot right now, and maybe she takes the last category or the last slot of the category, rather. But there's a lot of other. You know, it could be a Kelli o' Hara instead. It could be Laurie Metcalf for a Little Bear Ridge Road.
- [69:25]
B
That absolutely could happen. I mean, especially if Little Bear Ridge Road does get in for play. And nominators are looking for one place to get it in there as well. That could be a good Laurie situation. Especially since I don't think that the nomination for her and lead actress for Little Bear Ridge Road will take away from people wanting to vote for her for Salesman. Featured.
- [69:44]
A
No.
- [69:44]
B
Yeah, not at all. I just know that there are people who, before Salesman even started performances, there was the question of, like, well, the double nomination hurt her. Has anyone ever won being nominated twice in the same year, which I don't think anyone actually ever has? People have been nominated twice. I don't know if any of them.
- [70:00]
A
There's like six or seven people who have pulled off a double nomination.
- [70:05]
B
Jeremy Pope, I know, did. For choir boy Dan Maxwell. Jan Maxwell. Yep. Jan Maxwell. That was the year of the royal family. I think she was double that one.
- [70:13]
A
And Follies.
- [70:14]
B
And Follies. I can't think of everyone else right now, but, yeah, it's limited. And I don't think. And I'll look at this up later, and maybe someone's yelling at us right now through their earphones.
- [70:27]
A
I should know this because I wrote an article about it, but it's escaping me. And I think there is one person who won way back when. But yell at us all you want, folks. Well, because I'm also thinking, I'm not an encyclopedia.
- [70:41]
B
None of us are. I'm also thinking about double nominations at the Oscars, which is also rare. But I do know Jessica Lang pulled it off. She won for Tootsie when she was nominated for that and Francis. And that was a case where, you know, great as she was in Frances, it was sort of. No one was beating Meryl Streep for Sophie's Choice. And with Laurie and Little Bear, Ridge Road, it's like, great as she was like, can she beat Leslie Manville and Oedipus? Can she beat Carrie Coon for Bug or IO for Proof? Maybe not. So she wins for Salesman. Or maybe she doesn't win for Salesman. I can't stress this enough. I've heard, like, 20 different people mentioned in my DMs or whatever of just, like, watch out for this person. For a featured actress in a play, I'm like, there are only five slots every time.
- [71:26]
A
Well, I mean, every time I've seen a play this season, I'm like, well, they're totally the front runner for a featured actress in a play. But now I have, like, 15 people that fit that bill.
- [71:35]
B
So, yeah, I mean, already just with what I've seen. And again, I'm seeing Ballisters and Becky Shaw in the next couple of days. I have to see proof. I have to see Fallen Angels. We haven't even spoken about Joe Turner's Come and Gone, but Which I think also that one is just sort of. There's the lack of buzz on that. Positive or negative, I feel like is detrimental to its chances. But also, who knows? But. But I'm already thinking in my head of what I've seen, I would nominate in a featured actress. Laurie for Salesman and Betsy Item for Liberation, and June and Cynthia for Marjorie Prime. And then it's like, well, fuck, then who's five? I saw Dog Day Afternoon and I enjoyed Jessica Hecht, but I can't then put in Jessica Hecht and say sorry. Fucking Carrie Young for proof. Sorry, everyone in Becky, Sean Ballisters, Shit out of luck. And also Tracy Chimo and Fallen Angel. Yeah, I hear she's good. So. Tbd. Tb. Fucking D. I think it's safe to say that Waiting for Gadot is still waiting. Although I could see a sound design nomination for them. Jamie Lloyd tends to get those.
- [72:43]
A
Yeah, I think, you know, it could even get scenic design if they really want to. It was, like, one set, but a very evocative image.
- [72:52]
B
So you can win set or get nominated for set design for play if it's only the one set. But I do hear Fallen Angels has a very decadent art deco Y set. I don't know what this set is like for Joe Turner, but that's an option to have some really lovely design. I really liked the design for Oedipus. Oedipus. It's, you know, obviously it's not beautiful. It's an office, but it's so. It somehow is able to evoke tension without actually. Actually being a tense place. And the intricacies of all the different rooms and all that, I just thought was so well done. I don't imagine Giant will get a nomination for set. The set does what it's supposed to do, but it's not. It doesn't bull you over, color wise. Nor is it this, like, intricately.
- [73:37]
A
Well, I just feel like they didn't finish that house, you know, you just
- [73:40]
B
kept waiting for the house to get finished.
- [73:42]
A
I just. It just seemed like they didn't finish construction.
- [73:46]
B
That's what Queen of Versailles did to you, Sam, is that it? Made you stupidly think that by the end of the show, that wing would be done.
- [73:52]
A
I didn't hear Roald Dahl say, I'm never gonna stop building this house.
- [73:57]
B
No, he said a lot of things about Jews. That's what he did.
- [74:00]
A
He sure did. Alas alack.
- [74:04]
B
Alas alack. Yeah, he is. He's not exactly a BFG now, is he?
- [74:10]
A
No, he's not. Matt, that was a good one.
- [74:13]
B
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
- [74:14]
A
He's more of a witch. Yeah.
- [74:16]
B
He's more of a twit. He's not so fantastic that Mr. Fox but so I guess as we're closing up shop because Sam's got to go in a few minutes. As do I. What are some, what are things you're looking out for between now and beginning of May when nominations come out? Are there any shows in particular that you kind of have your eye out for to see where the wind might blow with them?
- [74:40]
A
Many, I guess. Joe Turner's Come and Gone is a great play. This revival doesn't have a lot of buzz right now, so that's something I don't have a grasp on. But it does have two really great Tony Beatty featured roles in it which are played by Ruben Santiago Hudson and Joshua Boone. So I'm very interested to see if one or both of them become major threats for the featured actor race. I think that's the one I'm most iffy on. And proof could also be something where I haven't seen that one yet. Hopefully we'll soon. But that's a thing where it's like, is that going to be a major player in this crowded revival race or is it one that's just going to be edged out because it's so competitive? The original production obviously did exceptionally well at the Tonys, so we'll see if this one is able to match it or not in such a competitive year.
- [75:42]
B
Yeah, Joe Turner also is such an, it's a beautiful play. It's also such an odd play. Same thing with Piano Lesson and I think a lot of people who are only familiar with the lore of August Wilson but don't actually know August Wilson see plays like Piano Lesson in Joe Turner's Comet and they expect, expect a super grounded fences situation. Yeah, yeah. They like, they come in expecting fences and then it's all this stuff about ghosts and history and, and trauma literally literalized on stage through theatricality and they go, what? And that's what makes, what makes him so much fun to around with but also makes it a high risk, high reward gamble for any production that you do. So we'll see.
- [76:22]
A
Yeah, those ones I prefer Bring on the Go
- [76:27]
B
Follies should be on stage every other season as far as I'm concerned. But yeah, no, I think that's absolutely fair. I am still, I still got my eye out on Schmigadoon and Titanique. I, I just sort of, I'm looking at them going, are you like, are you going to be able to pull it off? If you can pull it off, you're going to really help make this spring more exciting. And people want it to be so if they can. I think there's going to be a lot of joy for that. And yet Jellicoe Ball opens officially the day after we record this, but before the episode comes out. So everyone will already know what the reviews are like. I'm expecting positives, but you never know. I don't remember what Helen Shaw said when she was the critic at the New Yorker. So dvd, I think it will get raves.
- [77:14]
A
But speaking of musicals, I mean, the Lost Boys is also the biggest question mark, I think because it didn't have any, like out of town preview to go on. It is supposedly this really massive production with a lot of effects. And that is, I feel like that's like the one original, fully original score that's going up against two strangers in Best Musical. So it's kind of like the last day of eligibility. It's going to open and people will be like, does this one have what it takes to be the new frontrunner or not? Are we just going to revert back to where we.
- [77:49]
B
Yeah, I mean, never underestimate the power of a twink musical, is all I'll say.
- [77:53]
A
Forget demon twinks. This one is vampire twink. It's a whole new breed of twink. So we don't know what we're up against here.
- [78:02]
B
Oh, no. A whole new breed of twink. Hide your kids. Hide your wife.
- [78:06]
A
I'm putting that on a hat too.
- [78:09]
B
Whole new brand of twink.
- [78:11]
A
Yeah.
- [78:12]
B
Oh, no. So. So on that note, Sam, this has been delightful. Where can people find you if you would like them to find you?
- [78:20]
A
You can find me on Instagram, Sam Eckman. And you can read and watch all the things I'm creating@goldderby.com.
- [78:27]
B
love it. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only. Attcopolik. Usual spelling. You can subscribe to the substack. You can become a member of the Discord. All will be linked in the episode bio. You can give us a nice 5 star rating or review. Always helps the algorithm. If you haven't bought your tickets yet, buy your tickets for either May 3 Broadway breakdown at Green Room 42 reviewing the 2025, 2026 season or buy your tickets for June 1, the slightly early Tony Awards show. There'll be a good time both, I promise you and yes, we do indeed have the sheet music for Caviar dreams for the May 3 show. We will be singing it. Sold. Sold. Yeah, I can't speak any more on that other than also a bunch of whole new original lyrics being applied to all the musical revivals this season, Wind Beneath My Wings will be sung. But not in regards to Beaches. In regards to something else. Sam, what diva do you want to close us out with today?
- [79:23]
A
Oh, I always forget about your diva question and then I have to make an on the cause.
- [79:28]
B
They make you do it once a
- [79:29]
A
year, so you forget you make me work all the time. Because I was just watching Susie Toots version recreation of Liza with a Z on repeat. I'm gonna go for some Liza.
- [79:43]
B
Okay, do you want specifically something from Liza with a Z or just Liza?
- [79:48]
A
Anything your heart desires from Liza.
- [79:52]
B
Okay, well, thank you so much, Sam. We will see you guys next week. Take it away, Liza.
- [79:56]
A
Bye.
- [80:08]
B
It's such a happy thing to hear a king I lay? You gotta swing them, ring them, swing
- [80:17]
A
them, bring them back.