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- [00:00]
Sam
Awkward time to ask this, but hey, did you download the trail map?
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T Mobile Representative
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- [00:15]
Jamie Allen
Whoa.
- [00:15]
Sam
I don't trust my carrier that much.
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T Mobile Representative
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T Mobile Voiceover
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- [01:09]
Sam
Radio My name is Matt Tamanini. On today's episode, I'm in conversation with Jamie Allen, the magician behind the Off Broadway hit Amaze, which is getting ready to celebrate its one year anniversary at New World Stages. The show has also extended into January, so you have plenty of opportunities to see this unique, one of a kind show. Not only is Amaze jam packed with all types of magic tricks from the small to the large, but those fantastical elements weave in and out of Jamie's story about how he fell in love with magic from a very early age and how that has propelled him into the life and career that he has today. In our conversation, Jamie and I talk about everything from the influence that his parents, who were both professional performers, had on his life and career as a magician, how the wonder and curiosity that you have to have to be a magician as well as to see a magic show goes far beyond just enjoying the tricks in front of you. Why this show has appealed to both audiences, middle aged like me with its very 80s specific soundtrack and setting, as well as to younger audience members who might be discovering magic for the first time. Of course, in the show notes I'll have information on where you can purchase tickets to see a maze off Broadway at New World Stages. Alright, with all of that out of the way, here is my conversation with Jamie Allen. Well, Jamie, one of the things that I so loved about your show and the way I've seen you talk about it as well, is this childlike wonder that is required not only for magic, but also just as a way to look at life. When you look at that side of not only amaze, but also the way that you approach your job and approach the way you look at the world. How does the joy and the wonder of magic apply to your life? And then hopefully, what are you hoping to. How to make that transfer to your audience as well?
- [03:02]
Jamie Allen
I think it's two things, right? Because as you say, when I. When you're a magician, you're one of the people that remembers what it was like to be a kid. You know, the magician remembers those feelings. And as you get older and life overtakes it in so many ways, I mean, that's the joy of theater, but I think it's particularly relevant with magic. It's really great escapism. And I sense it, you know, as a kind of a keeper of secrets, as I mentioned in the show that I've always felt like I don't keep secrets from the audience, I keep them for the audience. And my joy is in sharing that. I think that I give my magic as a gift to people and I get so much joy out of seeing that wonder. And that's why it never gets old. I mean, we're over 450 shows in just in our current theater, you know, approaching, you know. You know, it won't be too long before we've done a thousand performances of a maze, you know, around the world. And it's, it doesn't get old and I don't think it ever will. And there's certain things that I've created as well, which, you know, I just love performing each night because I put so much work into it that it's just so nice to see people react and seeing grown adults turn into a kid again.
- [04:13]
Sam
Well, I was going to ask this question later, but since you brought up the Keeper of Secrets, I've always wondered, from a magician standpoint, obviously that's a big thing that we all grown up hearing. A magician never reveals his secrets. But you were on Penn and Teller's Fool Us, and they have kind of gone in and explained some tricks in the past. How do you feel about that? Not just with them, but just in general, like the, the breaking down of that mysterious veil between audience and magician.
- [04:40]
Jamie Allen
I think that our audience are more savvy than we think. I think that more people, particularly if you choose to come and watch a magic show, there's a good chance that you like magic and you possibly have taken lots of it in these days on the Internet. And if you've ever searched for it on your feed, you'll no doubt get shown more and more of it. So these people are quite exposed to magic. And if I were to poll the audience, which I have done in the past, I mean, how many people here had a magic set as a kid? You've probably got a weirdly skewed demographic that I'm sure if you looked at the population as a whole, the vast majority of them probably don't know much about magic. But it wouldn't surprise me to know that probably as much as half of my audience would understand basic terminology, like, you know, that you can palm something, it's hidden in your hand. It's all of these things that some magicians would like to believe that the audience are unaware of. And I think that when you. So then it falls down to, when I see magic done well, I take my enjoyment from just watching it done well. It doesn't. I take great enjoyment from watching magic performed, even if I. When I know how it's done. And most of the time, I love it when something fools me. And it happens so rarely. I mean, in the last couple of years, there was one card trick about a month ago that I went, I don't know how that's done. And we, you know, we figured it out, because I have to know, Right? But, yeah, so I think that it actually doesn't really matter about the secrets. I think that particularly in our show, we've tried to do a show that transcends what the magic is about. I think most people leave saying, we loved the magic, but we liked the story more. And that's what we tried to do in bringing a show to New York City, because we knew that it couldn't just stand alone and run for a long period of time just based on tricks.
- [06:30]
Sam
Well, and that's what is so unique and so special about Omaze, is that, yes, it has all of the tricks and all of the technology that you are kind of known for, but it also has an incredibly heartwarming story going back to your earliest days with your involvement of your parents, and how you got into magic and how that became not only a part of your life, but you know who you are to the public as well. You have the old box of Tricks that you had as a kid, when you look back at where you started and how you have kind of embraced magic to be where you are now, like you said, getting close to a thousand performances of just this show alone. What has that journey been like when you look back now on the. On the. As an adult and say, what would that kid have thought about the journey that magic has taken you on throughout your entire life?
- [07:22]
Jamie Allen
I don't think me, as a kid, would have believed how much work it was to get to there, because it's. You know, when you watch a movie or you want to hear somebody's story, you always want to hear about that one moment that everything changed. And I've managed to isolate a few of those moments of what the show is about. But you know what it's like, you know, when you hear that. For instance, when I heard we had a theater in New York, or, you know, that one of my biggest dreams was when we had my own show. This amazing show was in the West End of London. And that was the first time that it got really serious when we went into a credible West End theater. And, you know, and I was blessed to be, you know, one of only, I think, three British magicians in the last century that had a solo West End extended show. And it was just. Those are the pinch me moments.
- [08:14]
T Mobile Voiceover
Right.
- [08:14]
Jamie Allen
When you're a kid thinking, how did that happen? And. But. But always, by the time you actually get to it, you've always got that feeling of, you know, it might happen, but you convince yourself that it might not. So you never get that sudden phone call out the blue going, wow, it's all happened. Which you would like to imagine as a kid, that that's just the way that it comes about, and it's just perseverance and hard work. So when you. When I look back at it, I always. There's a video of. There's lots of photos of me as a kid and stuff on the. In the show. And there are moments I catch myself thinking, what would that kid think? And, yeah, he's not lost on me.
- [08:54]
Sam
Yeah, well, and one of the. And this might be skewed because I did see a matinee of the show, but there were a lot of kids in the audience, and you do such a great job of involving them in the show and helping them feel that wonder and that whimsy that magic brings. How important is that to you with a story about your journey from childhood in magic, to be able to communicate that and then to pass it on to the next Generation of not only magic fans, but hopefully magicians as well.
- [09:24]
Jamie Allen
Yeah, I mean, you are right. It's very special when there are kids in. And you are right about it being a matinee. That it is. It is skewed. I mean, most of the. Most of our midweek shows, we have. We have shows where there are no children there. It doesn't happen very often. There's usually, you know, two or three. But I would say the bulk of our shows are. They're mostly adults, but that's what I love, the energy of those matinees. They're a different. It's a very different feeling. And some of the funniest things happen when they're. And when you've got a kid on stage and they're helping with the trick, and I can try and keep them calm enough to stay in the moment. I'm hoping that I'm trying to not scare them so they're having a good time, so they'll take that away as a positive memory because, you know, the kid does, you know, one particular trick in the show with the puzzle, and they always just. 9 times out of 10, we're able to capture on the camera the kid's expression when they realize what's about to happen. And you can see the disbelief building in their eyes. And that's one of my favorite things. And I think that also harks back to what we're talking about at the start of the wonder that the audience, when they see that joy and wonder in a kid's face that eclipses what the magic trick is. So I. I love it. And yeah, we. We're able to push it to the kids a lot. I mean, we see. I. It surprised me how much the smaller kids love the show. I mean, we've tried to be sensitive to that when we create it. I mean, we're obviously dealing with adult themes. We have, you know, we talk about love and loss and, you know, there's some. There's some reasonably heavy themes in there, but we try not to drill down on it so much that it in any way becomes, you know, that the kids. I think the kids can push it to one side because they. They don't see all of that. But it's lovely seeing the kids reactions. I mean, I'm a father myself, so that's changed my outlook a lot on, you know, how we work with kids than when I was younger in my career.
- [11:21]
Sam
Well, and it is such a lovely story about how your parents, who were both performers, kind of maybe not ushered you directly into magic, but encouraged you to pursue performing. As you talk so, so much about them in that show, how do you feel that them, as performers influenced who you are as a magician, either directly because of how they performed or just the, you know, the environment that they raised you in around different performers?
- [11:54]
Jamie Allen
Well, it was two. Yeah, two things. I mean, my dad did have an interest in magic in as much as that they'd been touring around for so many years, that they were friends with so many magicians, that my dad kind of knew how most of the things worked. And I remember, you know, my dad, I talk about the magic set being my first introduction to magic. But actually, one of my. One of my real memories was my dad vanishing a ball for me in his hand and then showing me how it could roll down his hand.
- [12:25]
T Mobile Representative
And.
- [12:25]
Jamie Allen
And I remember that being the first time that I realized that you can do something and it appears that you're doing something else, and that's fooling to a third party. And I remember finding this whole concept just utterly fascinating. And when we would see, you know, some of the magic, there was magicians that would come and perform at the pub. And I remember.
- [12:48]
Sam
Which your family owned, you mentioned.
- [12:50]
Jamie Allen
Yeah, yeah, that's right. I remember saying this guy make his wife levitate in the middle of our stage, which was, you know, very, very intimate space. And I was just blown away with it. And I was so I wouldn't stop talking about it. My dad ended up explaining to me, is it how. Exactly how it works? Which you'd think would be the wrong thing to do to a kid, but he knew that that was. Made it so much more exciting for me. And I was always so much, so much more fascinated on the back end of it. And because of that, we had so many performers that encouraged me, and most of the adults that I knew were performers. So it seemed like a very normal job to me. I mean, I never really considered for a moment that this wasn't a normal way to make a living. I presume that was what I was going to be doing. Mom and dad encouraged me to try and get a good education, but I was never great at that. I always knew what I wanted to do.
- [13:39]
Sam
And one of the things that I loved you talking about in the show is that how you and your dad would build tricks, you would figure out how to do these things and create those original, original tricks. Obviously, you said you're a father, and we talked about the kids in the audience. Do you still do that? Do you do that with your kids when you Go into a shed or whatever and start building things. Do you involve other people?
- [14:05]
Jamie Allen
I have done it. My kids are far less interested in magic and that sort of thing than I was. And I also, I never really wanted to push them into anything like that. If they, if they showed an interest, then, wow, you know, wouldn't I have a lot to tell them? And, you know, I think there's a possibility. My, my daughter seems to be the most interested in it out of all of them. My boys are far more technically minded of the youth of today. Like they're far more interested in the computer system that makes our show run than they are the show, though of course they love it and they're very proud, but I would love to be able to pass some of it on. But also I'm a bit worried that, you know, I, you know, I, I, I, I've, I've been lucky enough through a series of random events to end up in a, you know, a situation that most magicians would love to have my own show here in New York. And I, I'm so grateful for that. And I, I also know that, you know, luck, you know, these kind of things are really a mix of opportunity, meeting luck and, and, you know, talent is in there. But I've always said, I think that the bare minimum entry point to any kind of professional level show businesses, the show has got to be great. And then, then you need a certain amount of luck and timing and everything else that just kind of comes along with it. So I would hate for my kids to do it and then not be able to not achieve what I've done, because that, you know, wouldn't, you know, I can't guarantee it, no matter how good they are.
- [15:35]
Sam
Yeah, well, whether or not it's your, it's your kids, you do talk in the show about the importance of mentors on your career and the people who have helped you go, is that another part of you looking towards the future? Do you work with young magicians and things like that?
- [15:50]
Jamie Allen
I have done. I always try to take time if I meet a young magician at the show because of course they seek me out. Like when I was a kid, my mom taking me to the magic show. So of course the young magicians come and if they're there and I'm aware of them, I always try to give them some advice and, you know, and talk to them because when I was young, you know, that meant a lot to me when magicians that I saw on the big stage and they, you know, would, would speak to me about it. And you can't, you, you can't underestimate the impact that you can have on a kid. You know, particularly if a kid is, you know, loves magic and has been learning it, watching the Internet and seeing it on tv. It's a whole different ball game the day they sit in the middle of a theater and watch these things in front of their eyes and feel the energy of the audience. And I know for me I saw a show called Mystique when I was young. It was in a town called Blackpool in England. It was like a Las Vegas illusion style show. It was very, very well produced, very, very value and I remember seeing that when I was about 12 and that changed everything. I was just, I couldn't say this is what I want to do. I couldn't. I came home trying to describe it to my dad, you know, and I couldn't find the words. You know, my dad was saying was just, you know, he could see it was just so exciting that I couldn't find a way to vocalize how fantastic it was, you know. And it's amazing you don't, we don't see it when we're grown ups quite the impact that you can have.
- [17:16]
Sam
Yeah, absolutely. Well, this show as we've been talking about is not only about magic but it's also about your journey in magic. For people who might be coming say, you know, I've got kids who might have a little bit of interest in magic, but I don't know if a theater show is the best way to, to introduce them to that. What is the vibe for this show for audience members either young or old, if they're going to come over to New world stages and CMA's?
- [17:42]
Jamie Allen
Well, the vibe of the show is. Well, I mean there's so many parallel things running along. The show is set in the 80s, it's got a banging soundtrack and there's plenty of times that it feels like a party. Although we talk about the story elements of the show, there is more magic in the show than you would find in most magic shows. I think there's in excess of, of 20 different tricks in the show which is sounds like, you know, that's actually a huge amount. Most shows usually tend to run about seven tricks an hour.
- [18:15]
Sam
Well, and what's great about it is there are small, intimate, for lack of a better term, and correct me if this is not like a small intimate sleight of hand tricks and then the bigger, larger illusions as well. So it's a wide variety of tricks as well.
- [18:28]
Jamie Allen
Oh, yeah, yeah. Particularly in the second half. I mean, the second half is really a. Is really all guns blazing. All of my, you know, all of my original stuff and things that are the big things that they all really came to see. The first half of the show is more narrative and gentler and has amazing magic in it. But it's. It's. We're purposefully holding back things like a lot of the sleight of hand and the skill stuff and some of the larger scale things. We're holding that back so we've got somewhere to go. I like the audience to get into a false sense of security of what they perceive the show is because the second half of the show really exceeds the first. Obviously we have a big ending to act one, so I suppose we follow a fairly standard theatre trajectory in that way. But, you know, the first half is more of a get to know each other and it's gentler with really surprising and amazing moments. But I think they have a false representation of what they think the show is come the end of it.
- [19:28]
Sam
Yeah, yeah, we won't spoil any of those surprises. Although you did get some awards and some nominations for at least one of the big surprises, which, when I saw those nominations, I was like, this is great, but also a little bit of a spoiler on some of those things. It's true.
- [19:43]
Jamie Allen
It is true. I think there's an amount of people that come along for that, but I think that by the end of the show, they've forgotten it was going to happen.
- [19:53]
Sam
Yes, yeah, very true, very true. That's enough. We'll say about that. We won't go into anything more. But you've talked about how many shows you've done in New York. Now you are getting ready to celebrate. Correct me if I'm wrong, a full year at New World Stages and you've extended into January already. So you're gonna be there through the holidays again, like when you said, as you talked about earlier, you found out you got a theater in New York, was this on the vision board? Like, was to be there for a year and then a year and a half through the extension?
- [20:21]
Jamie Allen
My hope was to stay here for as long as we could for a while. Because I've spent my life touring around and this was a lifestyle choice for me. I'm forever getting people saying, you should be on Broadway, this show transfers to Broadway and, you know, who knows what the future holds? But that's really the last thing that I want because I think that'll be the end of the run. I mean, we could, you know, it'll. It'll run for what it can. But where we are now, it's a. It's a lifestyle thing. I. I just love having my little theater and having all my guys that work for us, and we have a very good family atmosphere there. And it's. It's small and intimate and. And it. I also, you know, have, you know, my family here, and we're in one place, and the commute is eas. Everything. Everything about it is what I always wanted, just to stay in one place. Magic is benefits from being in one place. It's, you know, you can. You can do more that is. Would be completely impractical to do on the road.
- [21:21]
Sam
You mean from, like, a technical standpoint?
- [21:22]
Jamie Allen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. To load our show in. Every time that we've tried to load a maze in, even not. Not as big a version as here in New York. It's, you know, it's about four days to. To load into a venue, and that's. That. That's not really economical in the current way. I mean, eventually we will tour this show and we'll figure out the ways to cut down that time. And usually, unfortunately, the answer to the ways to cut down that time is to just have more and more people on the road with you. So, you know, and in today's. Today's world, it's. It's difficult to make theater pay. And we are. We're so, you know, lucky that with the shower show recouped after seven months here on off Broadway, and that's something that doesn't happen very often. I mean, we've all had our wins and losses, and, you know, we've. We've recouped and it's doing. It's doing well. And, you know, around about 30% of the people that come in are people that are coming because somebody has recommended them to come and see the show. And that makes a big difference for us.
- [22:23]
Sam
Yeah. I wonder how has the New York audience been compared to London compared to anywhere else that you've done the show?
- [22:30]
Jamie Allen
They're just the best. There's no. They're not even close. You know, like, the English audience are, you know, fabulous. London is a little different, but England a little more sarcastic and skeptical. And I mean that in the nicest possible way of my fellow countrymen. But there is slightly more of an air of go on then, Magic boy. Impress us. We've spent all this money on the tickets. Whereas anywhere in America, the audience tend to come more with the mindset of this. We want to have the best time. We want this to be great. Like, don't get me wrong, if you. If an American. If a show is not great, the American audience will certainly let you know, but they do not start off from that place.
- [23:06]
Sam
Yeah.
- [23:08]
Jamie Allen
And Americans, they have so much more joy to want to express them freer with their emotion, to want to express it. So therefore, they're just better audiences, like, for magic. Certainly. I don't know if it's true of all things. You know, England likes far more comedy shows, straight plays, musicals. It would. I can't imagine that this show would run for this length of time, even in a small venue in London.
- [23:36]
Sam
Okay. Which is because I think. Yeah, yeah. I think from a. From a theatrical standpoint, we often hear that the New York audiences might be a little bit more vocal and. And giving with, like, applause. The British audiences might hold back a little bit more and not react in the moment. So that does seem to. To line up, at least from the magic perspective as I'll wrap up here because I've taken plenty of your time already and I appreciate how much you've given, but you've been at New World Stages for a year now. You said so many people that are coming are there because other people have referred them to come to the show and encourage them to go see it. For people who. This might be the first time that they've heard about the show. You've talked about the vibe, we've talked about the narrative. But what is something in this show that you hope audience members take away? What is something? Whether it's a trick, a story, a life lesson, what in a maze is the thing that you hope an audience member remembers when they're leaving the theater?
- [24:36]
Jamie Allen
Oh, my goodness. It's such a tough question because people come in from different mindsets, and I hear them all the time. I hoped that they would take away a sense of wonder, but that's just. Comes with every magic show. But what they seem to take away is this. I get the people that love the magic. You know, there's people that come in that just talk about certain tricks that have blown their mind. But the thing that's always surprised me is nearly everybody leaves saying, we came for the magic and we loved the magic, but it was the story, as we said at the start. And they all just seem to feel that it has reignited all their feelings of childhood, not in the way of just magic, but just this, the feeling of the nostalgia. And even if you're not an 80s kid, as a Lot of our audiences are. It just seems to take them back to a time when things felt simpler and in a world that was just more magical. And maybe that's always going to be the retrospective as we get older, but it's important to take those moments to go back and think about what's important in your life. And I know that it's had a profound impact on many people, you know, that have spoken to me about it after the performances and some of the things that we hear and some of the letters and the stories that we get. I never expected any of this from a magic show, so it really has been the. The honor of my life, this show. It's certainly my. It's certainly my. The greatest thing that I've done in my performing career, and I've got it at the right time. And I. I really love, you know, what people are taking away from it, and they take away what they see from their lives. They. It's about all of us, the show. It's the best of all of us.
- [26:19]
Sam
Yeah. As. As an 80s kid as well. I can testify to how nostalgic that aspect of the show is. And I also love what you say during the show about there being, like, two types of people who are coming into a magic show. The. The cynics and the ones who kind of are more naturally inclined to believe. And I think just from. Again, I was at a matinee, so there were more kids in the audience. Maybe that had something to do with it, but it certainly felt like by the time the thrill was over, that even the cynics were caught up in the wonder as well, which I think is one of the great testimonials for what this show can do. So congratulations, Jamie, on everything for one year down and hopefully many more years to come over at New World Stages in New York. And congratulations on all the success.
- [27:05]
Jamie Allen
Thank you so much for your time, Sam.