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Special Episode: Sir Kenneth Hawkins on turning Picasso discovery into a musical
00:21:00
On today’s episode, Matt Tamanini is in conversation with Sir Kenneth Hawkins to discuss the new musical “Picasso in Paris” that will be presented in an abbreviated concert form at 54 Below on Monday, April 14.
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
Foreign.
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Matt Tammanini
Radio My name is Matt Tammanini. On this episode, I'm in conversation with one of the people behind a new musical that is making its debut at 54 below on Monday night called Picasso in Paris. I'm talking with Sir Kenneth Hawkins, who is not only one of the co writers of the musical, but also unearthed much of the history that is behind this thrilling tale. The musical dives into a heretofore untold story about Pablo Picasso and the work of resistance that he did, along with two women during the Nazi occupation of France. In our conversation, Hawkins and I talk about the shocking discovery that he made at an art auction that led to the musical, the message that he hopes audiences will take away from Picasso in Paris, and the very ambitious goals that he sees not only for Picasso in Paris the Musical, but for but other extensions of the story as well. Of course, in the show notes we will have information on where you can purchase tickets to see Picasso in Paris at 54 below on Monday, April 14. So with all of that out of the way, here is my conversation with Sir Kenneth Hawkins. The story of Picasso in Paris is fascinating, but I think it's also as equally fascinating as how you came to learn about the story of Picasso in Paris. So why don't we start first with giving the quick elevator pitch about what the musical is about and then we'll get into how you came to learn about what the musical is about.
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
Very good. So I'm going to mix that up a little bit. I spent six years researching the art that I found and discovered a story that I'd never heard before and that most people don't know about Picasso's courage during World War II during the occupation of Paris. And the story was so compelling, so fascinating that it drove me to dig deeper into the people around him. And I discovered that it wasn't just Picasso, it was two women in his life at that time. Dora Maher, a woman of incredible character, and Will and Francois Gillot, an epic person on the continent of Europe. And together the three of them made a big difference. Resisting the Nazi occupation, they helped the Resistance, they hid art for the Jewish friends that they had, they hid some of those friends and they helped some of those friends escape Paris. And so they were very heroic in the middle of a very, very dark period.
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Matt Tammanini
And you mentioned you were doing some research, but how did this come across your radar in the first place?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
Well, the story is long, so I'll try to catch the chase a little bit, but basically I found two lost masterpieces. I found. And the. In a Picasso that had never been seen, hasn't been seen since World War II. It was a lost work of art. And I found a Paul Clay, a famous Swiss artist. His work was created after World War I in 1919. And so when I found the art, I really didn't have any knowledge of art history other than just what every common person has. So it required me to do serious research and I did that for six years, uncovering the background of the art.
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Matt Tammanini
So this is a, I know that this is a musical that we're going to kind of see in an abbreviated fashion at 54 below on Monday. What is the, the narrative behind this story that you talked about Picasso and the two women in his life and everything they did during the occupation? What is, I guess, the journey through that time that people are going to be treated to at the club on Monday night?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
Yeah, we picked the story up in 1937 when Picasso is responding to the atrocities that happened in Guernica, a small town in, in Spain that was bombed by the Nazis. And so we frame the story with two works of art, Guernica being the front end of the story and then the back end of the story is the creation of the lost dove, an incredible peace image that he created during the war. And so we, those are with those two bookends, we weave the story using real history to tell the story of how Picasso first dealt with the, the rising threat of the Nazis and then how he dealt with them as they marched into Paris, how he reacted to that. And it's a really interesting story because at first he did what everybody would do. He, you know, he basically tried to survive, but at some point he became so sickened by the atrocity that he, he, he, he pivoted and then he became fully engaged in resisting the Nazis and the two women were equally courageous. And so we, that's the storyline and we follow his life, their life and the life of some of their friends dealing with those atrocities. It's an incredible story. It's, it's, it's something you have to see. It's, it's inspiring, it's heart wrenching. And the good thing is it's true. And so he is a, he's a heroic figure. And we don't know that about him. We know so little about what really drove him during those years.
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Matt Tammanini
Well, and you, you mention all of the research that you've done, and this is a true story, but you also just said we don't really know a lot of what drove him. So how do you go about trying to balance all of that research that you did with having to fill in some blank spaces in there? Because you don't, you can't know everything that happened. Exactly. So how do you do that as a writer and obviously somebody who cares deeply about the story.
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
Yeah. So I'm a co writer. I'm co writing this with Paul Cosby and together we are great history buffs. We just love to do research. And so when you, when we found an element of his life, like when he went to Roy Ann, there were so many elements in history that we could piece together and just imagine how he dealt with those issues. And then when he came back to Paris again, there was lots of information and so we, we could just weave the story. It, it's, it's an, it's an amazing story, really. He's far more complex and interesting than most people think think he is. You know, he, in one sense, he's a flawed personality. You know, he was a womanizer in sorts, but he was also a brilliant mathematician. He was a great philosopher. He loved children. He was, he was the most prolific artist really, that has ever lived in human history. He created more art than any other individual ever has. And so there were remarkable characteristics about him that come out through the story.
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Matt Tammanini
So we know this side of it. You are co writing it with Paul Cosby. You have the history, all of the research you've done on the story and the book side of things. Then let's get to the music. Because a story about a Spanish man living in France During World War II, I imagine that that lends itself to some pretty exciting and evocative music. So tell us what this score sounds like.
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
Oh, my goodness. Well, we try to be true to the period, so there's certainly Spanish elements of it in that regard. Picasso loved the Spanish guitar, and so we've had to weave that into the story. But the French music at the time was, was incredible. Even the German music was, was developing and interesting. And so we've tried to weave all of those elements into it. And we are blessed to have four different composers that have looked at this. And so We've tried to take the best of what we've created as a team, and so the music is quite lovely. It's epic. I don't know how to describe it because I'm not a musician myself. Other than listening to it, I'm deeply moved by it.
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Matt Tammanini
And for, for any new musical, one of the things that is always difficult for an audience is to know exactly what they are getting themselves into when they decide to come see a show. You've talked about all of the heroism that Picasso and the women went through during this time period. So I'm assuming this is not a musical comedy, so to speak, but. Although it very well might be, for all I know. But what are you hoping that audiences get out of Picasso in Paris when they first see it? What are the emotions? What are the experience? What are the takeaways from this show?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
I suspect that people will be deeply moved by it. I've. We, we've had some readings and I've watched the audience reaction. If I told you that you're going to cry deeply watching it, there will be elements of that where you're, you're, you're, you're trying to hold back the tears. If I was going to describe something that might be similar to. I'm thinking of Les Mis, which is a historical story that has, it also has deep, evocative emotions in it. But there is, there is some humor. I mean, the Nazis are caricatures. They, they did some crazy things. And so there's some humor about it, but it's mostly a deep, emotional story about what really happened in Paris is, as you probably well know, it's the most beautiful city on the planet. So there's fabulous costumes and dance, and there's a lot of elements that give us a palette that we can paint really beautiful scenes with.
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Matt Tammanini
And from. From some of the reading I was doing while you are working on a musical version of this, you are hoping to tell this story forms as well. So I'm interested about one, what some of those things are. But why do you think that this is a story that needs to be available in as many different mediums as humanly possible?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
Well, the story is just so rich. So let me give you an example of something that's out of the ordinary. This Picasso is stained with human blood, and it is almost for sure Picasso's blood. So there's a fascinating story about science and history that would play well in Europe. And so there's a documentary element to our story. If you can imagine having the DNA map of Someone like Einstein, what that would mean to the sum of human knowledge. What. What made him a genius? What made him creative? Well, we have that with this element of Picasso's blood. And then as we researched the story and created the story, we kept finding so many different elements. Coco Chanel is one that comes to mind. So many interesting stories that the only way to really tell the whole story is probably then to take it to some sort of a Netflix type series, because we have 10 years of storylines that are all interesting, of incredible people. And so we'll probably develop the story further because we can only tell so much in a two or two and a half hours musical time frame. And then because art is such a powerful medium in hum. In. In the human condition, we believe that this story will inspire peace. I think one of the reactions that the crowd will have is they will be inspired to work for peace. And you know, no matter what, what venue you're talking about, the world is. Is. It's filled with hatred and division right now. So we want to bring a story about peace to the audiences where people will realize that they can engage and have a purposed vision of the world to work for peace. Art is like that. And so we have an immersive experience planned through our foundation, the Hawkins Art for Peace foundation, where we go back through history and show how art has. Has been a voice to inspire peace or to work against tyranny. And interestingly enough, history is full of those examples. And so we want to use that to inspire the younger generation to. To explore their own creativity and to. To work for causes that are good. And so the story is just so rich. It has. It has transcendent values in so many different dimensions. And we want to capture as much of that as we can. But the crown jewel is clearly the musical that we hope to see on Broadway. That's clearly the best part of our project.
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Matt Tammanini
Well, you said that's the goal. What are you looking at in terms of timeline? You said you've done some workshops. We're having a public presentation of it at 54 below. Where do you see the trajectory coming for the show after Monday night?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
There's really two courses for us. One of them is a regional theatrical production. We're ready for that. And if we don't immediately do that, we may replicate the 54 Below show in Chicago next, and then go to Denver and then back to North Texas, where we're from. And what we're doing is we're trying to raise awareness to this story. And then after that we would go to the regional theater. And so I don't know which sequence yet. I'll know more in maybe six or seven weeks, but that's what's on our immediate forefront.
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Matt Tammanini
Yeah, well, you said something earlier that we kind of moved on from quickly but kind of fascinates me. You mentioned the fact that you found two either unknown or lost works of art. Is this like Indiana Jones style stuff or is it like Antiques Roadshow kind of stuff? How are you finding these two incredibly important pieces of artwork?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
It's more like the national treasure story, you know, when you find it and then you uncover clue after clue after clue. And the reason it took so many years is that they were lost works of art. So I had to find out where, when they were original, when they were created. There was dozens and dozens of forensic tests that had to be done on the works. And then there was the research into the artists themselves and then the period and all the people around them. And so there was a lot to it. But yes, these were lost works of art. The Clay, the Paul Clay was created in January of 1919, right after World War I. And it was a tribute to Franz Mark. And Clay described this as the greatest work of art that he'd ever done. And then he, he gave it away as a tribute to Mark, to one of his good friends, Albert Block, who was a German, German citizen, but also an American citizen. And Block brought it back to the United States. And the art world had really never seen it. They'd been looking for it for 90 plus years. When I found it, there had been concentrated searches, the Zentrum Paul Clay Museum in Switzerland to find it, but they had radio where it was. And so when I found that, it was just an incredible discovery. Along with it was this Picasso. And you know, it's a, it's a real small piece. At first glance you don't realize that, for example, it was done on the back of a French bill of currency. But effectively it's the only Picasso in the world that's done on a bill of currency. And it is arguably the most valuable numismatic collectible in the world. It's an incredible work of art. And then on top of that, it's the only Picasso in the world that has his blood and DNA on it. And as we uncover that science and demonstrate that to the world, it's an incredible treasure. And so, yes, both were lost, both were obscure pieces, and people just didn't really realize what they had. The two works of art were, were in the governor's Mansion of Montana for about, oh, I don't know, 30 years. But they were just art collectors. They bought the pieces and didn't really do any of the historical research. But they hang in the ballroom of the governor's mansion for a long time, and then they got auctioned off and auctioned off, and those people didn't know what they were.
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Matt Tammanini
And. And you found them and did you know immediately? Like, I don't. You don't know what they are, but we know they're special. Or did you have some kind of idea as to. At least with the clay piece, what it was when you first came across it?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
I was completely clueless about the Paul clay work, other than it was beautiful. I had no idea. But the Picasso work took me about a minute or a minute and a half to put the pieces together. So it was a fascinating few moments. And I've told many people, all my friends, I wish you'd been with me when I found the Picasso. So you could have gone through that, that moment of discovery. It was an incredible experience, but I knew just enough about him where I could put the pieces together, where I could discern it. But the most interesting thing that happened to me when I saw the Picasso is that after about 30 or 40 seconds, I felt myself falling into the art. It moved me so deeply that I lost my footing and almost passed out. And so there was an element of creative genius in it that just drew my soul into it. And at that moment, I knew that something was. Something unusual was happening. And so, anyway, it's a wonderful story, and I've written a book about it. But the Broadway musical really will tell the story about the arts history.
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Matt Tammanini
That's fantastic. Well, I'll wrap up here on a couple of questions about the concert itself. You said you've done workshops before. Tell us about this cast that you've assembled for this production. Are these people that you've worked with some of these workshops, or is this a new group? Because it's in New York? Who are these folks and. And what are they going to bring to the piece on Monday night?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
So most of them are new. Our Dora Maher, who's one of the two leading ladies. Rachel Rice has been with us from the beginning, and we're very, very blessed to have her with us. But we have a new cast of amazing people. I just landed, so I don't have my notes in front of me, but let me tell you that Katerina McCremen is somebody that I've envisioned playing the role of Francois Gillot. From the moment I started writing this, she's a perfect fit for the character, the age, the person, the. The moxie. Francois Gillot was, was one of the great women on the continent of Europe in the 20th century. And she not only married Picasso and then left him, she had the strength of will to do that. She then married Jonas Salk, one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century. And so she's an amazing woman. She lived in New York much of her life and I think she died now about 18 months ago, but she died, I think, at 102. And she was a force to be reckoned with all the way to the end of her life. And so I'm hoping that Katarina understands the gravity of this character because I think she's perfect for the role.
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Matt Tammanini
So Monday night, 54 below, people can not only come to see the show in person, but there's also a streaming option. So if they're not in New York City, they can watch it then concert because ends at 9:30 in person. I think it's like they said, 9:45 for the streaming. You talked about what the emotions are going to be potentially for people who see it for the first time. What are you hoping to get out of doing the show this way, either from a personal standpoint or a developmental perspective on the piece?
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
So the cast is by far the best cast we've had. So I can't wait to hear the music sung by absolute pure Broadway talent. Very excited about that. But I, I will be focused more on the crowd reaction. I'm going to be watching the people. Do they understand the story? And if so, how many of them are crying? Because I want the people moved emotionally to understand the story. It's an amazing. We have an amazing show. It's not the full musical production, but this is one of those debut events that if you love Broadway, you would not want to miss it. This is one of those that you'll talk about years from now. Hey, I was there when it first. When it first showed itself in New York. So it's a big deal and I think people would come, they would, they would be, they would be moved as well.
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Matt Tammanini
Well, you are selling it very well and that sounds like it should be a fascinating experience to have. So of course I'll have information on where people can purchase tickets to see Picasso in Paris at 54 below on Monday, April 14th. So thank you so much for talking us through this. I wish you the. The best not only on Monday, but for the future of the piece. And I, I cannot wait to be able to see this either via the live stream because I I live in Florida, but either that or in a in a production in the future.
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
Matt, thank you. It was great talking to you. I look forward to talking to you again sometime.
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
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Sir Kenneth Hawkins
You're on mute.
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