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Stagecraft: Cary Gitter on “Gene & Gilda”
00:21:09
The Stagecraft podcast is hosted by Jan Simpson. It is a series of interviews with playwrights (and musical book writers) of shows opening on Broadway and off-Broadway. Gene & Gilda by Cary GitterDirected by Joe BrancatoWith Jordan Kai Burnett and Jona...
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Jan Simpson
Every play, every musical begins with some writer putting words on a page. Hello and welcome to Stagecraft, the Broadway radio podcast that talks to playwrights and musical book writers about the shows they've created. My name is Jan Simpson. My guest this week is Carrie Gitter, whose simultaneously funny and poignant two hander Jean and Gilda, is currently running in a Penguin Rep Theater Production at the 59 East 59 theaters through September 7th. Hello, Gary Gitter, welcome to Stagecraft.
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Carrie Gitter
Thank you. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
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Jan Simpson
Now, we usually start these conversations with a brief description of what the show is about. Your title kind of gives it away, but would you still tell listeners who haven't had the chance to see it what Jean and Gilda is about?
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Carrie Gitter
Yes. So Jean and Gilda is a two hander bio drama play play about the great comic performers legends Gene Wilder and Gilda Radner, who were in a relationship in the 1980s and married for a few years before Gilda's tragic death from ovarian cancer. So the play essentially it's it's framed as an interview with Jean after Gilda's passing and and then it flashes back to scenes from their life together, basically from the time they met through Gilda's tragic death.
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Jan Simpson
Where'd you get the idea for this?
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Carrie Gitter
You know, it's funny, I grew up exposed to both of their work and was always a huge admirer of Gene and Gilda both. And even though I'm a bit younger, I'm in my 30s, I had a father who was a huge fan, and he showed me all their stuff when I was growing up. But actually, the idea to write about them came from my friend Jonathan Randall Silver, the wonderful actor who plays Gene in the show. I've known Jonathan now for almost a decade. We've worked together various times over the years. And Jonathan was in a play of mine up at Penguin Rep Theater in stony Point, New York, in 2022, right after Covid. And he's always been told, rightfully so, that he bears an uncanny resemblance to Gene Wilder. He's virtually a doppelganger. And he also is the same kind of comic performer. So one day in rehearsal for that play in 2022, Jonathan and the director Joe Brancato and I were sitting around and Joe said, you know, we should really write something for Jonathan to play Gene and, you know, just kind of as an idol idea. And I really took that to heart and I thought, Jonathan is such a great actor. He. He already has this built in resemblance. But beyond that, he can't. He can kind of channel that same comic prowess. So that set me thinking. And having always been interested in the fact that. That these two legends were in a relationship and were married, I thought it would be a great opportunity to. To tell Gilda's story as well. And so I. I started doing my research and decided to. To write the play about the two of them.
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Jan Simpson
What kind of research did you do?
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Carrie Gitter
So, fortunately, both of them have written wonderful memoirs. Gene has a memoir, Kiss Me Like a Stranger, that's really candid and informative. Gilda wrote a beautiful memoir, much of which details her struggle with cancer, which was published posthumously called It's Always Something. So I started with those and then just went from there to the documentary, Love Gilda, which came out, I believe, in 2018, which is a great film. There's actually now a Gene Wilder documentary called Remembering Gene Wilder, and then just a plethora of interviews, YouTube footage. Fortunately, you know, YouTube is a great resource now for all these interviews from the past. So I just kind of started sifting through all those materials and picking out the bits and pieces that I thought would. Would be crucial in telling the story on stage.
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Jan Simpson
Now, the production that's at 59 East 59 is, I think, maybe the third production that the play has had.
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Carrie Gitter
That's correct. So the play premiered in the summer of 2023 up at Penguin Rep in Stony Point, where I'M the playwright in residence with the same two actors, Jonathan Randall Silver and Jordan Kai Burnett, directed by Joe Brancato. And from there we actually did a. Something kind of unusual. We did a workshop in the City in February of 24 after the first production, just to revisit the play and spend a week. Just spend a week working on it and, and honing it further. And that culminated in an invited reading we did. And the artistic director of George Street Playhouse in New Brunswick, New Jersey, David Saint, was at that reading and decided to program the play at George street, which was exciting for me because I grew up in New Jersey and I grew up going to that theater. So it was done in George street in December with, yeah, with the same cast and director and a new design, new visual palette. And then that production, essentially with the same team attached, design wise, is now at 59th, although once again the set and the visual presentation of the show has been reimagined.
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Jan Simpson
Did you make changes to the script as well? Has it changed much since the time at Penguin Rep?
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Carrie Gitter
Yeah, it's changed quite a bit. I mean, I did a lot of development before Penguin and then during the Penguin rehearsal process and then more rewriting in that workshop last year after the initial production. Then, you know, we kept working on the script at George Street. But the. The script now at 59th is fairly close to what it was this past December. I think we felt like we got to a pretty good place in December after basically, you know, a couple years of working on it.
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Jan Simpson
What was most challenging for you?
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Carrie Gitter
Well, you know, when you are depicting two iconic figures like this, that puts a lot of pressure on you to do them justice, to portray them in a way that, that connects with people's memories of them, but also find a way to just tell an intimate story about two people and leave all that baggage aside. So I guess that delicate balance was a challenge, like between the sort of honoring their public Personas and the kind of trademarks of their. Of their personalities that we know from film and tv, while also just really trying to get to the more intimate stuff and treat them like any two people in a relationship who happen to be, you know, creative and artists and also in the public eye. But also an additional challenge too, for Gene especially, was that by all accounts, and I actually have spoken to people who met Gene in social settings, he was a very thoughtful, kind of reflective, low key guy, quite different from his manic, high energy on screen Persona. So in my initial draft of the play, I kind of adhered to that. And it Became clear that Gilda's personality and her zaniness was sort of overwhelming the piece because Gene was sort of this more retiring figure. So I kind of worked on finding ways to blur those lines and inject some of the on screen Gene into the private Gene. And I kind of justified that artistically by the fact that, you know, he couldn't have played those roles if that hadn't been inside him. Obviously he had those. Those forces within him that he was able to bring out as an artist. So I'm hoping that the portrayal of Gene can kind of walk that line between what we know and remember and who he really was.
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Jan Simpson
Was there anything similar with Gilda? Because she, it seems in real life, was charming. In your play, she's really charming, but it also seems that in the play she's a little less needy and maybe a little less annoying than she appears in either of their memoirs.
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Carrie Gitter
Yeah, both she and Jean in their memoirs kind of characterized her as being the driver of the relationship, but also the one who, like you said, was. Was needier and could kind of be maybe a bit suffocating to Jean at times in. In terms of her. Her approach to their relationship and wanting to get married and all of this. And. Yeah, I mean, I would only say that if she said that about herself, which she. Which she does. You know, she says things in her memoir like my pestered Jean to marry me, pester Jean to cast me in this film and all those things. And, yeah, I. I wanted to give indications of that. And I think those are in the play. But, you know, also just. I think as a writer, you want to feel. Feel love for your characters and their foibles and idiosyncrasies. So I think I tried to approach those. Those character quirks of hers or those things that might have been a little maddening, perhaps, to someone in an intimate relationship with her with love and understanding. And so I'm hoping that the portrait, while it shows her neuroses and his neuroses in different ways, is a loving one and an homage.
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Jan Simpson
I was surprised by how closely the play really does follow their lives. I think there are some incidents in the play that people might say, oh, there's a lot of poetic license there, but you really found a way to dramatize their real story.
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Carrie Gitter
Yeah, that was my goal, kind of the job that I saw was to take these incidents that were real, with a few exceptions. There's some things in there that I kind of created whole cloth, but for the most part to take these incidents that were real and imagine how they might have played out. You know, to take a line like from. From Gilda's memoir about pressuring Gene to marry her and then imagining how that conversation might have sounded and how it might have looked in the room to the two of them as it took place. You know, I mean, I haven't even looked at the memoirs in so long, but when I was first reading them, I believe there's. There was something about how Jean didn't really have a good idea of who she was because he wasn't a big TV watcher and didn't know SNL well. So when I read that, my ears perked up as a writer. Like, oh, that's a perfect kind of antagonistic romantic comedy meeting situation to put these characters in where she idolizes him and he's not as aware of her. And, you know, you have conflict and comedy right there from the start. So, yeah, on one level, I hope that just in a very basic sense, the play is like a primer for people who either adored them on screen but don't know much about them, or for younger generations who, like, really aren't familiar with them at all, that they can just get a sense of who they were and what role they played in 20th century American life and entertainment and come away with some knowledge about those people.
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Jan Simpson
You had your gene right from the beginning. That's how it started. How did you find your Gilda?
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Carrie Gitter
Yeah, so that was our biggest hurdle when I first wrote the play and Penguin programmed it. You know, we had Jonathan, and then our task was to find somebody for Gilda who was going to be as convincing as he is and who had the kind of chemistry with him that we needed. So we found Jordan through an audition process. I think her manager had submitted her. She walked into the studio in 2023, I still remember, and I think I have her. Her audition on tape on my phone. And she just blew us away. I mean, and Jonathan was there. So she actually read with Jonathan on that first day. And not only her. Her reading of the sides, but also just talking with her when we met her that day, it was clear that she had a very personal love for Gilda herself as a Jewish woman in comedy. But also her Persona is just. I mean, she's. She's funny, she's wacky, she's interesting, she's dynamic. She's, you know, all those things that. That Gilda was too. And, you know, she actually has also played Gilda in the development of a different play. I think about the first season of snl. So she's. She's definitely someone that people find incredibly compelling and convincing as Gilda. I mean, both of them. I couldn't feel more blessed as a writer to have these two filling these roles.
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Jan Simpson
You seem to like the romance genre because the play also just works on the level of a story about the love affair, the romance between two people. I've looked at some of your other plays, and this is a genre that appeals to you. And so I was wondering what appeals to you about. About this kind of play.
- [15:20]
Carrie Gitter
Yeah, that's a great question. I grew up exposed to, particularly because of my father, a lot of classic film. And, you know, TCM was like, constantly on in the house, and I was always watching that stuff growing up. And so I think I absorbed a lot of the classic, like, screwball comedy and romantic comedy feeling, from Billy Wilder to Preston Sturgis, Howard Hawks, all those great writers, directors back then, and then in a more contemporary sense, you know, Nora Ephron and Crossing the Land Seas of play and film that I love, but also, you know, the, like, prime Neil Simon stuff. And I think a lot of that just seeped into my consciousness, just that. That way of telling stories about people that are funny, romantic, poignant, relatable, engaging. And, you know, oftentimes love stories are what we lean into the most. And you can mine those for so much conflict and humor and sadness and joy. So, yeah, I think I've just been drawn to that. That sort of archetype, but approaching it from different angles.
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Jan Simpson
Was the interview structure always a part of the way you wanted to tell the story? And I don't want to spoil anything, but you do have a famous interviewer.
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Carrie Gitter
Yeah, no, I think we can talk about that because it's been. It's, you know, been publicized, put out a press release, all that, so we can. I think we can address that. Yeah. So to answer your first question, the interview structure came in pretty early, but not at the very beginning. The very beginning. I. I believe I just had the two of them come out, and it was like they were talking to the audience intimately and telling their story together. And then we decided collaboratively, Joe, the director and I, that the play needed sort of more of a dramatic reason for being than merely these two kind of being resurrected and telling us their story. So the idea of an interview came about, and then I think we found this notion of the interview taking place after Gilda's passing and Jean's reluctance to talk about her and to. To go there so soon, and then that provides us with a motivation for Gilda to appear and push him to tell their story. And so it still provides the framework for the flashbacks, but it. It gives it a dramatic arc that supports the whole piece, I believe. And then in terms of the interviewer, yes, this time around, this was not the case at Penguin and George Street. But this time around, Penguin was able to reach out to. Through some. Some connections to Dick Cavett, the legendary talk show host, who was gracious enough to let Joe and our sound designer, Max Silverman, come up to his home in Connecticut and record him providing the voice of the interviewer. So that lends a whole meta layer to the show. And, I mean, he really did interview Gene in real life. I think you can watch that on YouTube. But it just lends such gravitas and authority and history and legacy. It's just an incredible honor to have him be part of it.
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Jan Simpson
Will that be part of the play going forward? Do you have the right to include his voice if other theaters want to do the play in other parts of the country?
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Carrie Gitter
You know, I'm not 100% sure. I believe that future productions associated with Penguin Rep, who was presenting this at 59th, would have that right. I'm not sure if the recording would be available as part of licensing to other theaters. That's a good question for my agent, I guess. But, yeah, prior to Dick Cavett, we just had an actor providing that voice, and so that could certainly be done elsewhere. But, yeah, if it were possible to use this in other places, that would be great. Just because it's so powerful to hear him.
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Jan Simpson
Yeah. I have one more question, looking ahead. You've musicalized several of your other plays. The Sabbath Girl, How My Grandparents Fell in Love. Have you thought about doing this one as a musical?
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Carrie Gitter
I haven't, actually, no. I think because they're real figures who were not. I mean, Gene sang a bit, you know, in some stuff, but because they were real figures and who weren't really musical artists, somehow that would seem, I don't know, inorganic or. Or jarring to me to have, like, Jean and Gilda singing a love duet or something, you know, I mean, they both had a romantic sense and they both loved to dance. I mean, you know, Gilda did that famous Dancing in the Dark sketch with Z. Martin and Gene later took tap dance lessons and just as a hobby. So we tried to honor their love of music and dancing with these kind of fantasy dance sequences that we have in the show, which are lovely. Yeah. And we had a great choreographer, Ryan Casper Zak. Come in and design those for us. But, yeah, this one I think I would leave as a play, although you're not the first person to ask that.
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Jan Simpson
Well, I guess it just makes sense, given your past, but yes, absolutely. But we're. We're delighted that you've created the play as is, and. And I hope lots of people get to see it. And I thank you for taking time to talk with us about it.
- [21:25]
Carrie Gitter
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's. It's been a great conversation and great opportunity to get. To get the word out about the show. And. And like you said, I hope. I hope people have a chance to come and, you know, kind of relive the lives of these two legends, and we're all hoping that the play does them justice and celebrates them.
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Jan Simpson
I think it does. Thanks again.
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Carrie Gitter
Thank you so much.
- [21:50]
Jan Simpson
And thank you for listening. I hope you'll come back next time, and if you have any comments, questions, or suggestions, please send them them to me at jan at bradleyradio. Com.