#53 A Sit-down with Medical Examiner and True Crime Expert Joseph Scott Morgan

Summary

Bubba On the Lake

Episode #53: A Sit-Down with Medical Examiner and True Crime Expert Joseph Scott Morgan

Date: April 9, 2026

Host: Bill "Bubba" Bussey
Guest: Joseph Scott Morgan, Medical Examiner, Forensic Expert, Host of Body Bags podcast

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Bubba sits down with Joseph Scott Morgan—renowned medical examiner, forensic investigator, author, and host of the podcast Body Bags. They discuss the complex and at times haunting world of death investigation, Joseph’s unique career journey, the toll such work takes on the human psyche, prominent true crime cases (including the Guthrie disappearance and JonBenét Ramsey), forensic education at Jacksonville State University, and the evolving intersection of forensics and media. This episode offers both captivating true crime insights and a deeply human look at the cost—and calling—of speaking for the dead.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Joseph Scott Morgan's Background and Path to Forensics

• Origin Story:
  • Born in Monroe, Louisiana, moved to Georgia as a child, but considers New Orleans home.
  • Started at the Jefferson Parish Coroner’s Office—got his start by helping at the hospital morgue before joining the coroner’s team (“I was the one that was checking bodies in and out... I started going to autopsies on my own.” – Joseph, 11:46).
• Career Highlights:
  • Progressed from hospital orderly to coroner’s apprentice, then to senior investigator in Fulton County, Georgia, and later transitioned to academia.
  • Spent 20+ years in the field, and two decades in academia (now at Jacksonville State University).
• Unique Perspective:
  • He describes how working in the National Guard and enduring things like gas chamber training paralleled building a tolerance for the difficult aspects of death investigation (“I became one of those people that could stand in there... in the morgue and be around the most horrific things you’ve ever seen.” – Joseph, 16:52).

2. The Psychological Toll and Calling of Death Investigation

• Emotional Cost:
  • Morgan openly discusses the cumulative trauma:
    • “It took a toll. The last time I left the medical examiner’s office in Atlanta, I was in an ambulance because I thought I was having a heart attack... panic attacks.” (19:59)
  • Wrote a memoir as part of therapy, nearly destroyed it but was convinced to publish (“I was going to burn it... wound up becoming a book, and it got a lot of attention.” – 19:26).
• Mission and Advocacy:
  • Sees himself as an advocate for the forgotten dead (“The dead are the least among us... It’s amazing how the dead are treated. We forget about the dead. Nobody thinks about the dead until it’s your dead.” – 21:47).
  • Highlights lack of resources and political attention given to forensics vs. other causes (“You never see politicians rushing up to the mic to say: Hey, we're going to get a new morgue... Dead people don't vote.” – 23:26, 25:11).

3. Forensics in the Media: Becoming a Broadcast "Rock Star"

• True Crime Surge:
  • Bubba acknowledges the explosion of true crime and forensics in media:
    • “I think there may be more medical examiner shows than there are cop shows out there now.” (28:21)
• Entry into Media:
  • First big case was the Jodi Arias trial (2013) for HLN/CNN, after a producer reached out.
  • Morgan prepared meticulously, but was coached simply: “Teach me.” This became his mantra for all media appearances—always educate (32:13).
  • Now averages nearly 300 media appearances a year, always promoting Jacksonville State University alongside forensic education.
• Story About Nancy Grace:
  • Met Nancy Grace through overlapping roles in Fulton County. Describes her as “bombastic—but real,” and highlights her sincere empathy for victims.
  • Their initial interaction: “She cussed me on the phone and I hung up on her.” (36:39)
  • Now a regular expert on her programs and credits her for supporting forensic education at Jack State.

4. Evolution and Education of Forensics at Jacksonville State University

• Unique Academic Program:
  • Houses both field and lab forensic tracks (“Field mice and lab rats” – 42:12).
  • Facilities include trace evidence lab, fully equipped crime scene house, blood spatter lab, interview/interrogation rooms, full courtroom, and a hands-on cadaver lab.
• Real-World Training:
  • Students handle real human remains under strict supervision, gaining practical skills from autopsy basics to morgue photography and fingerprinting (“You’re actually safer with the dead than you ever are with the living.” – 45:10).
• Impact:
  • Morgan is proud of his alumni who work globally, viewing graduates as “little bitty sailboats we’re kind of putting knowledge into, and then... out to the tide.” (46:54)

5. Notable Cases and Forensic Failures

The Guthrie Disappearance (48:41–58:32)

• Main Issues:
  • Scene was not properly secured:
    • “The initial part to this case—they treated it as missing elderly person... There was blood visible, but they didn’t lock it down.” (51:03)
  • Potential evidence (blood, doormat, footprints) was not properly collected, while unauthorized people entered, contaminating the scene.
• Consequences:
  • As forensic technology is now highly sensitive (“Going into a crime scene now is almost like going into a surgical suite…” – 51:52), these missed steps likely compromised the case extensively.

JonBenét Ramsey Case (58:45–70:20)

• Scene Contamination:
  • “They had everybody and their brother in that house. They did not lock down that house. You've got a note... then they find her body in the basement, right, at the same house where they're eating, drinking coffee and eating Christmas cake...” (59:11)
• Perpetrator Likely Had Intimate Knowledge:
  • “Whoever perpetrated this homicide had very intimate knowledge of this house... This thing is massive and it’s multi-storied...” (62:32)
• Ransom Note and Evidence:
  • The note was written with the family’s pad and pen, suggesting it was composed in the house—very atypical.
• Missed Chances for DNA:
  • Modern genealogy could solve the case if evidence is preserved ("Now we can do it at a microscopic level with a tiny sample... They claim they have DNA. I want to know what status of it is, how's it being protected and are they submitting it for genealogical test?” – 70:08).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the toll of death investigation:
  “I just adapted. I had to. I’ve been on my own since I was very young and had to make my way. And I just, I embraced that life... But you don’t see that when you’re young.” – Joseph, 16:52

• On the dead needing an advocate:
  “It’s amazing the way the dead are treated... Nobody thinks about the dead until it’s your dead... So I have to offer a voice for them.” – Joseph, 21:47

• On the transition to media:
  “He said, ‘You're a professor, right?... Teach me.’ And so from that moment on, Bubba, anytime that I go on air, that’s what I keep in my mind.” – Joseph, 32:13

• On forensic failures in famous cases:
  “You have to work every single day thinking that today I’m going to work a major case... It doesn’t matter if you live in Dog Patch, it’s not just in big cities.” – Joseph, 59:11
  “If you screw it up from the beginning... you’re leaving the door open. And you don’t know what you’re opening the door to because this is evil.” – Joseph, 61:16

• On preservation of evidence and technology:
  “You cannot say now that we don’t have the technology to solve something... Now we can do it at a microscopic level with a tiny sample.” – Joseph, 70:08

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Important Timestamps

• 09:05: Joe Scott Morgan’s introduction and background
• 11:46: Getting started in autopsy work, early career
• 16:52: The “gas chamber” analogy and coping with morgue work
• 18:53: The emotional cost of the job and writing his memoir
• 21:47: Advocacy for the forgotten dead
• 25:11: “Dead people don’t vote”—the lack of resources for forensic work
• 29:04: Bubba asks about the transition into media
• 32:13: First major case—Jodi Arias, and being told to “teach me”
• 36:03: Story about getting connected with Nancy Grace
• 40:34: Forensic education at Jacksonville State University, program details
• 47:10: On the unique preparation of JSU forensic grads
• 49:22: Discussion of the Guthrie disappearance and scene security failures
• 58:45: JonBenét Ramsey case: missed steps and possible theories
• 70:08: How DNA technology and genealogy could change older cases
• 71:13: Joe invites listener questions for a future episode

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Episode Flow & Tone

The episode maintains a conversational, occasionally humorous Southern tone but does not shy away from emotional gravity or technical detail. Bubba’s down-home style allows Joseph to share candid reflections—sometimes raw, sometimes technical—making complex forensic issues accessible and always rooted in human empathy.

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Listener Takeaways

• Forensics is as much about advocacy as it is about science—Morgan sees himself as “a voice for the dead.”
• Securing and processing a crime scene is absolutely crucial; missteps can thwart justice for decades.
• Forensic science has evolved immensely, but evidence preservation is key.
• True crime's popularity has thrust professionals like Morgan into the media spotlight—he uses that platform to educate and uplift his university.
• There are vast educational opportunities at places like Jacksonville State for aspiring forensic investigators—real-world, hands-on, and unique in the region.
• Famous cases like Guthrie’s and JonBenét's illustrate both progress and ongoing challenges in forensic science and policing.

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Engagement & Next Steps

• Joe Scott Morgan encourages listener questions:
  “Send Bubba some questions... I’ll be glad to answer anything you got within reason.” (71:13)
• Contact: [e-mail]

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For fans of true crime, forensic science, or the intersection between media and criminal justice, this episode is a compelling mix of gritty real-world insight, Southern storytelling, and genuine mission-driven conversation. Stay tuned for a promised Part 2, where Bubba and Joseph will dive even deeper into infamous cases and emerging science.

Transcript

[Bubba]

This podcast is brought to you in part by Russell Lands Coke, Buffalo Wild Wings, Southern Immediate Care Guaranteed Labels, Central

[Joe Scott Morgan]

State bank, Sunrise Docks, Dr. Thomas Dudney

[Bubba]

and the Green Monster Fishing Light. Now back to Bubba on the Lake.

[Theme Song Singer]

B U double B A on the lake hey wishing I could listen to the show every day hey gotta hear what Bubba his buddies gotta say on B U double B A on the lake in the mellow yellow studio putting on a show Betty say what she always on the go we got on a bus sitting at master control don't wanna miss a moment cause Bubba's got the flow roll B U double B A on the lake hey wishing not to listen to the show every day hey gotta hear what Bubba and his buddies gotta say on B U double B A on the lake Hey B U B U B A B U B B A B U double B

[Bubba]

A on the lake hello again, everybody. Friends, neighbors and associates everywhere. I'm your semi retired, mostly washed up host, formerly of the Rick and Bubba show and now your commander and captain of Bubba on the lake, also known as the people's Podcast. Thank you for tuning in and being a part of it. Our website is bubbaonthelake.com you can drop me a message [e-mail] and of course we have our message line. We always enjoy hearing from you at 3:08 Big Lake, but have your thoughts together. You only have 30 seconds. Don't forget to like subscribe, turn on notifications and all that other stuff you need to do to stay up to date with this podcast. And we certainly appreciate you and, and the sponsors that make it possible. Well, we got a lot going on. We've got a really good podcast today. This is one I've been looking forward to and we did a lot and we've done so much. We're going to have to have him back on have a part two. Joe Scott Morgan. Many of you know him, if you're into true crime. He has a podcast called Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan and our Body Bag. I need to get the right name of that. And you see him on Fox, cnn, Nancy Grace. He's on all of these high profile investigative shows. He's a medical examiner investigator and he has worked thousands of cases and now consults and does media on so many of them. He's a very, very interesting guy. Very fortunate that we have him at Jacksonville State University. He's there and they're doing a lot with him. They're building a whole, you know, program around what he's doing so and we're going to let him tell you more about that. Also, we have a new national champion in basketball. Congratulations to the Michigan Wolverines on a great run. Now the we we had our Bubba on the Lake Bracket challenge going and we have a winner. His name is Tyler Brown. Get this, he is a student at Ohio State. Okay, he is a Buckeye, but he picked Michigan to win in his bracket and for that he's going to win $500 and go into Bubba's hall of Fame. That will be there forever and ever. Hopefully as long as the webpage is up, he will be enshrined in that and that's going to be cool too. And we're going to talk to him on an upcoming podcast. We've got so much to cover in this one with Joe Scott. We're going to push him back to the next one because I want to give him plenty of time and talk to him. And it is kind of funny that an Ohio State student had to pick Michigan and how tough was that for him to do that? But he's got 500 reasons now while that was a good choice. So we'll catch up with him on the next one. Also, let's see what else do we have going on? We've got a lot to tell you about. Russell Marine is having their yearly in Water Boat show. It's coming up this month. It will be Friday through Sunday, April 24th through the 26th at the Ridge Marina, of course here on beautiful Lake Martin. Now folks, I gotta tell you, of all the events we have every year, the In Water Boat show may be my number one. Okay. It's the largest in water boat show in the Southeast. You can explore over 100 boats in the water and another hundred up on dry land. They've got this season's most talked about models from the top brands like Bennington Nautical Sea Ray. You can even test ride brand new 2026 sea doo. Okay, so they let you test them in the water on their demo course. So bring your bathing suit and be ready to go. It's a perfect weekend for the whole family featuring live music, great food, Chick Fil a Los Latina Kitchen. They'll have a massive vendor village. Plus you can score big discounts up to 20% off selected boats and grab early season deer deals on gear from Yeti Costa and all of those that's going to be going on too. Head to the Russell Marine website to RSVP and you'll be entered to win a turtle box speaker. And that is going to be April 24th through the 26th in water boat show. One of my favorite events of the year. I may be the, the most favorite event of the year. So if you're anywhere close to Lake Martin, I would invite you to come for that weekend. They actually have and I've talked about this before, they. Do you know how you will see models on a catwalk? They'll come down and turn around and go back and show you what they're wearing. They do that with boats. They'll actually have a show and the boats will come out and they will tell you about the boats and they will spin around and drive back by you just like it's a Runway. It's one of my favorite things. I love it. I really do. It's always a lot of fun. Russell, Marines in water Boat Show, April 24th through the 26th. I will be there. Hope to see you there too. It's a fun time. Everybody's getting ready for summer and I've been out on the boat a few times and oh my gosh, I forgot how much I love being on a boat on the water. I can't, I can't really think of anything that I enjoy from a fun standpoint much more than that that I could at least mention on this podcast. So it's, it is, it is one of my. Okay, one of my all time favorites and we hope to see you there. So we'll be back in just a minute. We're going to get started with Joe Scott Morgan, True crime. If you love that, you're going to love this. He's a medical examiner and he is a broadcast rock star and we're glad to have him with us. We'll be back in just a minute here on Bubba on the Lake.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

We'll be right back.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Joe Scott Morgan]

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[Bubba]

Folks, we are back and we have a very special guest, someone that I've wanted to have on the podcast for quite a while, Joe Scott Morgan. Now, if you are a true crime fan and a true crime podcast listener, you already know who Joe Scott Morgan is, but let me tell you a little more about him. He is a renowned American forensic expert, author and distinguished scholar of applied forensics at Jacksonville State University with a career spanning over two decades, including time as a senior investigator in Fulton County, Georgia. I can only imagine what that was like and New Orleans, and has worked thousands of death investigations. He's widely known for hosting Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, the podcast. And you will not be able to cut on cable news without seeing him on Fox, cnn, Nancy Grace, or any other show that is discussing some kind of crazed killing going on. Joe Scott Morgan, how are you, sir?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Hey, bubba. Good to be with you, my man. And I got to tell you, I don't want nobody sending me no bills for the television monitors or houses that have been subjected to this intentionally. That was not, that was not my intent, you know, in doing it. So, you know, what can I say, you know, that's, that's just the way it is. So. And also any kind of psychological scarring.

[Bubba]

Well, that's, that's one of the things. Yeah, that's one of the things I was worried about. We, we had a brief discussion a few weeks ago and we'll, we'll cover that in a minute. But for those that do not know who you are and have not seen you on tv, give everybody a little bit of a background where you're from and how did you end up in Jacksonville, Alabama? We're going to cover your association, what you're doing with Jacksonville State also. But just give us a little background,

[Joe Scott Morgan]

okay? So back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I was born in Monroe, Louisiana, right along the i20 corridor. I'm sure a lot of the listeners are familiar with Monroe. If you've ever been up and down I20, you have to go right through it. When my daddy got home from Vietnam, he moved us to Georgia when I was about 7 or 8 and then left us, me and my mama and I grew up in, in Georgia. I consider myself a native Louisianan. Most of my kin folks are down in south Louisiana. And so it was a natural thing for me that when I got old enough, I migrated back down to south Louisiana. And you know, I lived down there for many years. I still go. I consider New Orleans home, you know, no matter where I go, you know, that's, that's where I claim home. And my people are still down there. Try to get back down there as much as I possibly can. And let's see, what else. I started my career down there. I was with the Jefferson Parish Coroner's office, which kind of hard, you know, if you, if you're familiar with the New Orleans metro area, it's the parish, you know, we don't have counties in Louisiana. It's the parish immediately adjacent to Orleans Parish. And that's where I got my start with the coroner's office down there. I'd started, I was working while I was going to college. I was working at a private hospital. It just so happens that the morgue was being condemned or was having to be refurbished. And so this brand new hospital I was working at, they started bringing all the coroner cases to that hospital. And I was working as an orderly, an ER tech, a security guy, a psych tech. I did everything there. And I started. I was the one that was checking bodies in and out. And I became friends with the people at the coroner's office. And to show you how my mind works, being a college student, I started going to autopsies on my own. I wasn't getting paid or anything like that. And the pathologist saw that, the forensic pathologist saw that I had kind of an, an aptitude for what they're doing. And I became his scribe. And many people don't know what a scribe is now, but you know, autopsies are bloody affairs and so, so that. And no, they don't talk into a microphone hanging down from the ceiling. It's too noisy and cluttered, as you well know. You're a sound guy. You got stainless steel and instruments banging off of everything hardwired. Exactly. So I was literally his scribe. I would sit there and I would write. And boy, did I get an education really quick, you know. And I started closing for them. They taught me how to close bodies after they had done, done the autopsies. And I'm absorbing everything that's going on in there, everything from examination of remains to collection of evidence, the whole nine yards. And then they. They had me opening bodies pretty soon because the pathologist really doesn't open the body. It's a technician that does it. And we do the evisceration, which is the removal of organs. Right. And they trained me in all those aspects. And in the meantime, I became kind of an apprentice investigator for the coroner. People don't realize coroner's having investigators, but they do. It's called medical legal death investigation, and I can get into that and kind of what that all entails. But I applied to be a medical legal death investigator with a coroner and got shot down twice. Both the people they hired didn't last more than six months. And I was just patient. Kept going to autopsies and win by default. Yeah. Third time was a charm. I wound up staying there six, seven years. And then I got. I got appointed as one of the senior investigators with the Fulton County Medical Examiner's Office in Atlanta. So I worked in the field just over 20 years, and now I've been in academia for. I think I'm starting my 40. No, I'm sorry, not 40. My 20, 21st year in academia, I was at the University of North Georgia, which people are familiar with. Dahlonega, Georgia. I was up there, started the forensics program there. And then, of course, Jack State came calling off me, made an offer I couldn't refuse. And I say, New Orleans is my hometown. Jacksonville, Alabama, is my home. I mean, really home and hearth. These are my people here. Um, and, you know, they've loved me and taken care of. They took care of me and my family through the tornado. We lost our house back in 18.

[Bubba]

Yeah. Wow.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And, you know, they. They always talk about you. Find out who your friends are.

[Bubba]

Yeah.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Real quick. And who cares about you. And. And I. I wouldn't. There ain't no way you could drag me off to any other location to work. I love it. I get other offers and all that sort of stuff, but. Ain't no way. Well, I love being here.

[Bubba]

Yeah, we're big fans of Jack State. Grew up there, you know, working there now. And glad to call you a coworker, although you're in rock star status over there where you are, but I don't know about that. Just got this. This is such an amazing story because I'm listening to this as you're. As you're laying this out. You literally went from working the very bottom jobs at the Hospital security guard and some of these others to actually being in there opening and closing bodies and had an interest for that. That's. That's an amazing elevation in your job path.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, it is. I also, and to give you an analogy, and I don't know if it's a real good one. I'll try, though. Also, I was also in the National Guard at the same time. And so when you go through army basic or any of the basic trainings, I know Army, Marine Corps, they make you go through the gas chamber. And there are certain people that are cut out for it and other people that can't. My instructors would stand in there without a gas mask on. I became one of those people that could stand in there and in the morgue and be around the most horrific things that you've ever seen. And you have to be able to cut through the horror of what you're. Of what you're observing and try to find scientific truth in it. Because if you don't, if you don't, it is going to be such a major missed opportunity that it's almost. You can't calculate it because you never know. The smallest little thing in any case can turn an entire case and can turn how people view the case, whether it's prosecutors, the public, whoever it is. And so I just adapted. I had to. You know, I've been on my own since I was very young and had to make my way. And I just, I embraced that life. I embraced it to, to my own detriment, you know, a long time down the road. But you don't see that when you're young. Right, right. See the impact.

[Bubba]

No, no, no. I would have eaten better in earlier years if I knew it was going to affect me like it does now, you know, so. Just got you when you, I mean, you really have a heart for solving cases, for finding truth. I mean, that, that drives you beyond what maybe the gore or the, you know, a lot of us that are not used to that would think, gosh, how do you do that all the time? Or how heavy does that get on you, dealing with people who have been killed all the time? I mean, does that play a toll on you after a while?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah, it does. You know, I wound up back in 12131 Georgia author of the Year for my. For my memoir. And I was really. And kind of bring it back to a Southern theme, which my whole life is Southern themed. It was, I was really honored. I got to meet Pat Conroy and that award that I won over in Georgia used to be called, until it became Politically Incorrect, used to be called the Dixie Riders Award. And that was one of the first awards that Pat Conroy won. You know, Prince of Todd's and, you know, all those great Santini had a big impact on my life. When I was a young kid, I read it and of course, Lords of Discipline and in those books and. And I didn't understand. I just wrote. I wrote that book. And one of the reviewers, a gal had written a review of the book, and she said that, you know, she talked about how, you know, there's an old adage in writing about bleeding on the keyboard. And she said, I took the Grim Reaper scythe and cut my throat and bled onto the keyboard. And I really did because that it was. It was that. That memoir that I wrote, what's called. It turned out because I didn't know what I wrote. My wife and I. When I wrote this thing, it was part of therapy. I was going to burn it. You know, I was going to get. I was going to write it down and burn it and put it, you know, let the past be the past. And one of her friends, who's a creative writer in Georgia, read it and said, you got a book here? And I was like, what, are you kidding me? So it wound up becoming a book, and it got a lot of attention. And so I'm going a long way around the barn to kind of tell you that story, because it was. Yeah, it did take a toll. It took a toll. The last time I left the medical examiner's office in Atlanta, I was in an ambulance because I thought I was having a heart attack. I thought I'd been having a heart attack for, like, six months.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And there were panic attacks. And you don't really understand because nobody understands, even police. You know, if you work in the medical legal field, there are no finding lost children. There's no breaking up a domestic abuse thing where you're going to rescue.

[Bubba]

Right. Immediate gratification for your thing. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

There is death from the moment, you know, you clock in every day. It's 24, 7. It's every single day of the year. It never takes a break. And so it's a. It's a burden to bear. But, you know, going back to, you know, where. Where my passion lay or lies, I don't know. I'm sure some English. English professor out there will nail me on.

[Bubba]

Trust me, they won't look at a word that you say. They've already. They've already tuned out listening to me. Don't Worry, worry about it.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

JEFF SCOTT well, my, who I'm really interested in are the dead, right? Because they are, they're the least among us. And it's amazing how, and you, I don't know, you know, and I can get in some of these stories, but it's amazing the way the dead are treated. We and how they're forgotten. And Bubba stood over so many unidentified bodies in my career, both in New Orleans and Atlanta, things that were very hopeless and helpless. I felt helpless because I couldn't get them identified. And they're buried in unmarked graves or back years and years ago. Kind of like what happened to Michael Jordan's father over in Marlborough County, South Carolina. He was cremated and they didn't know who he was. And we forget about the dead. Nobody thinks about the dead until it's your dead. Right. And then there's no advocacy that's going to stop, you know, step up. So I've purposed in my life that, you know, I was given this gift for a reason. And it's, it's rather gruesome. It is, I'll admit that. But that's always been gruesome. It's not, there's nothing new under the sun. I mean, it's just as. Right, it's just as gruesome as it's always been. So I have to, I have to offer a voice for them.

[Bubba]

Yeah. Sort of say you are the voice for the dead. You are trying to solve their mystery and find out what happened or who they were. And you know, there's, as you said, there's not a lot of people standing up for that. You, you have a calling. There's no doubt about it.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah. And it's, it's fascinating to me. And one of the things that's always been fascinating to me is that I'm getting soapbox here for a second. But when I see politicians, particularly at like local and county levels, they will bang the drum over something like an after school program that they're going to fund or new playground or, you know, you name it, whatever the flavor of the week has to be. But you never see them rushing up to the mic, say, hey, we're going to get a new morgue. We're going to have, we're going to have coolers that you don't have to use bungee cords to hold the door shut with, or that the, the engine, the motor, the refrigerator is going out. You don't, we're gonna, you know, the subpar conditions that these people are expected to work in. We're gonna change. You don't hear that. And there was a documentary. I urge anybody, if you really want to get a view of the world that we kind of inhabit. Frontline did a video a few years back. It may have been like an 11. I used to show it in class all the time. And it's called Death Investigation America. And there was a famous quote from the coroner of New Orleans, Dr. Mignard, who has now passed on. I knew Dr. Frank, and he said in your. He's talking to the reporter right on Front Line, and he says to the guy, he says, I want you to put this in a New Orleans accent. I want you to put this on the screen. You know, he says in big letters so everybody can understand. Dead people don't vote.

[Bubba]

Yeah.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And that's. That's what we're faced with out there. You know, people don't care about the dead until it's their dead, somebody like me that shows up at their door to notify them, right? And you see this play out, and it's a real sad state of affairs because you, you know, people say, you know, you can judge. Judge a society by the prisons. That's been an old adage for a long time. I submit to you, you can judge a society by the way they treat their dead. And it's. It's a sad state of affairs in many places.

[Bubba]

Our guest is Joe Scott Morgan. True Crime, if you're into that kind of podcast. You've heard him, you already know about him. He hosts Body Bag, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. And we'll be back and talk more with him in just a moment.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Where's Bubba?

[Commercial Announcer]

I'll tell you where. He's on the lake.

[Bubba]

On the water or off? Experience lake life to the fullest at Russell Lands on Lake Martin. Grab a latte at Bruce 63, linger over lunch at Fanny's, or take in a Lake Martin sunset at Kaladja Restaurant. Whether you're here for the weekend or you've made your home at the Lake Russell Lands is where community and the land come together. To learn more about upcoming events, visit Russelllands.com come see what Lake life is all about.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

You know one thing I love about Buffalo Wild Wings? You can get wings with any of their 26 sauces and dry rubs for takeout and delivery. That's like bringing an entire B dubs home with you, which you can't do. I tried. I've knocked down so many walls only to then be told to halt construction because I'm not zoned to be a sports bar. Kind of just looks like a big pergola or something. Because of the lack of walls, at least these 26 sauces and dry rubs are available to go. Buffalo Wild Wings, let's go, sports bar.

[Bubba]

Dr. Dudney has been my dentist for about 20 years. He does a great job taking care of my teeth, making sure my cavities are good, cleaning my teeth, and also adding veneers to my smile, which was a game changer. Now Dr. Dudney and his friendly staff can do the same for you. I ask you to give them a chance. Just talk to them. No cost. Just make an appointment, see what you need. See if you can have a better smile and feel better about yourself today. Give them a call at 205-663-6545 or tedudney.com. We're back with Joe Scott Morgan. He is a host of Body Bags. You probably know that podcast, if you're a true crime person that likes that type of podcast. And Joe Scott, I know true crime may be the largest genre of podcast. If it's not number one, it's number two. Lot of people love that. And Joe, I've got to ask you, you. I knew when I was growing up, we had Quincy, you know, was a medical examiner, and that was about it. But now there are, I mean, there's been 50 shows with medical examiners. You guys are rock stars now. I think there may be more medical examiner shows than they are cop shows out there now, so. And you, you are in the media now. How did that go from you just being, you know, a medical examiner and investigator into the forefront on like, say, FOX News, cnn, Nancy Grace. And I know you're on other things, too, but that's where I see you most of the time. How did that get started?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Okay, this is how it kind of went down. And it's a fascinating story. I was, like I said, I established the medical. I mean, I'm sorry, the forensics program up at the University of North Georgia. Diligently working away, you know, trying to get my mind right and all those sorts of things. And it was in 2013, the same year the Blood Beneath My Feet won the award. Right. It's weird how life intersects. I know you've had this. And people listening have had this happen.

[Bubba]

Yes.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And it happened to me. I'm nothing special. It's just that it happened. All right. Your life intersects. So there was a producer at hln, which, of course was a subdivision of cnn. Right.

[Bubba]

Headline News.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And it was. Yeah, Headline News. And of course, they took on the mantle of kind of true crime. In the early days, I had a producer that reached out to me and said, we need a medical examiner for. For this case that we're covering, and how would you like to, you know, do this? And I was like, you know, I speak in front of students every day. I've never done anything, you know, like true crime. Right. Or, you know, I've never, you know, had to do any kind of broadcast stuff. And I said, yeah, I guess I'll. I'll give it a shot. Well, the case happened. It turned out to be the Jodi Arias case. And that's back in 13. And this is the woman that had, some years earlier, had killed her boyfriend, Travis Alexander, and stabbed him multiple times while he's in the shower. It's a very complex scene, and it was real soap opera, too. Yeah, well, they had just tons of data that they needed assessed. And try to understand, because people were just. They're gobbling the stuff up. You know, the viewers are. I said, yeah, so bubba, I gotta pay some. This is. You know, you talk about country doesn't come to the city.

[Bubba]

Yeah.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

They said, well, we're gonna send a car to pick you up. And I was in Dahlonega, Georgia, like, 60, 65, 70 miles north of Atlanta. Right. And of course, they were still headquartered in Atlanta. A stretch limousine shows up. For me, this is back in the

[Bubba]

day when they didn't stand out. I'm thinking, dahlone, good.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

No, not at all. And I'm thinking, what in the Lord? You know, what's going on? So I get into this limousine and I've got a stack of files that are. If you can't see me right now, I'm showing a stack of files that are over a foot thick. And I'm an academic, I'm a technical guy. And I've been reading and reading and everything I could consume. And so when I finally show up at the studio, the producer looks at me, looks at the stack of papers, and she says, you realize this hit's only 10 minutes. I was like, I don't know what to do. And I got the best. I got the best piece of advice on the first day. Now, that doesn't happen very often. I know the reporter that was working on the case, he. He looked at me, and we were gonna sit at one of these big false desk things that they have. Look, rail space age. And he said, I can tell you're nervous. He said. He said, you're professor, right? I said, well, yeah, I am. He looks at me and he says, teach me. And so from that moment on, Bubba, anytime that I go on air, that's what I keep in my mind.

[Bubba]

You're educating.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, yeah. And if I. And it helps me stay within the boundaries of where my expertise rests, as opposed to going far field. And I was nervous. I was sweating like a hog, you know, and I had all these papers laid out in front of me and whatnot. And I'll never. The guy's name's Ryan Smith. If you're. He's, you know, he's gone on to other things now, but he's the chief legal analyst for, like, espn. He's on abc, Good Morning America. He was with HLN then, along with a friend of mine who I'm still very dear friends with, Vinnie Politan. And many of you guys know him. He's on tv. He's been around for years and years, and he literally gave me my start. So it turned out where I was going to CNN headquarters to appear on hln, it turned out to be like a weekly gig. Well, I wasn't getting paid for it, but I would go on and I would do. Do forensic stuff.

[Bubba]

Crime of the week, because they had

[Joe Scott Morgan]

plenty of Trayvon Martin. Yeah. They actually had a show that was called After Dark, and they empaneled a jury of viewers in studio, and they would argue one point. So I'm sitting at this big table. I'm the one forensic guy, and I'm surrounded by seven attorneys. They're all trying to get a word in edgewise. You ever try to get a word in edgewise around a lawyer? Because they're trying to sell themselves, you know, that's why they're on the air. And so they finally had to do a segment. It was like, we're going to bring you over to the Magic board from now on. And that way, Vinnie and I would have a conversation. We did Trayvon Martin, we reenacted the shooting. And so from that, it just. Here's the thing, and I'd say this. This is kind of advice to anybody that wants to, like, pursue something you want to do. Don't say no. There is nothing. Until you reach a certain level, there is nothing that is beneath you. Within reason. Okay. There is nothing that is beneath you. You always. You always be kind. You always be polite. You be prompt, and you just don't say no. And you do it to the best of your ability within. Within your. Your area of expertise, whatever that might be. I don't. I don't it might be crocheting, it might be cooking, it might be death investigation, forensics, I don't know. But I've never said no. And, like, as of this past year, doing the calculation right now, in my mind, I did 275 media appearances. That's pretty basic for the. For the fiscal year of 2025. And the beauty of it is, every time I go on air, they mentioned Jack State. And so, you know, that's publicity that you can't go out and buy.

[Bubba]

Yes, that is correct.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

We can't afford. We can't afford to have an ad on Fox or on the BBC. You know, where I appear there, they will mention Jack State. And so that's the beauty of it. And I see it as an opportunity to get the word out about our university and to teach, and that's what I do.

[Bubba]

Well. And. And I will say this, just being a alumni and, you know, being a fan and a supporter beyond working there now, I'm glad that we've got you, because I love seeing that. I love seeing the, you know, the Jack State logo on TV when I walk by. And so tell us a little bit about Nancy Grace, though. You. You really got hooked up with her, and she's a real bird dog on these cases. I mean, she will not let them go. How did. How did you meet her and get plugged in with her?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

It's an interesting story, and we've laughed about this. Now, many, many years ago, you know, she was a prosecutor in Fulton county, and I was there as a senior investigator with. You're gonna meet. You're gonna run across each other. Right? All right. And so the. I think it was the first and only time I ever spoke to her in that context. Everybody was aware of her. And this is before she got on Court tv. Okay. But she had a reputation back then as somebody that, you know, I know you see her on television, and she is. I guess the term is bombastic. That's real.

[Bubba]

Yeah, that.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

That's not. That's not fake. Yes, she does have twins. Yes. She takes them to school every day. She goes grocery shopping. She is a real person. And she. Yes, she does, in fact, care about victims. I've seen her do it. I've seen her embrace people. I've seen her weep with people. This is not some kind of showy thing where she just kind of, you know, well, next, let's bring them on. You know, it's not like that with her. But we met when we had that conversation. She cussed me on the phone and I hung up on her and I reminded her of that and she's like, you know, because she asked me. Yeah, well, you know, she asked me years later. She said, have we met before? I was like, yeah, Nancy, we met. I said, you cussed me on the phone. I hung up on you. She said, yeah, I used to be mean to people. Yeah, yeah, you were. It's like, you know, I don't get paid enough to get. So it's like she didn't really cuss me out. It's just like, I don't have time for that.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And we developed a real. We developed a real collegial and she's been very, very good to me. So I'm kind of her forensic guy on her show. And I have been doing, I've done her podcast, I do her television show and that's two or three times a week. And she has been to Jack State multiple times. And as a matter of fact, she was given honorary doctorate here.

[Bubba]

Yeah, I know she did.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah. She has promoted Jack State unbelievably and she believes in what we're doing, you know, here, you know, as an institution, because she sees the need for it because we see failures in the system. All you got to do is look at the Guthrie case right now and how that's being handled. And, you know, it's, it. There are those, you know, what do kids say now? It's real cringe. It's a cringe moment, you know, when you see people that are in charge and cases are handled like that. And so back to the relationship with Nancy. She understands that. As a matter of fact, she came here for fox. We re. We re created Ellen Greenberg's Kitchen. If y' all aren't familiar with the Ellen Greenberg case, this is a young woman up in Philly that was found with a knife in her chest. She had been stabbed in excess of 20 times in the Philly ME after a closed door conversation, he had initially ruled as a homicide, came back and ruled that as a suicide. And so we were on that case forever and ever and been covering it for a long time. And you know, we recreated her, you know, and that's the kind of thing that we can do, you know, at Jack State with what we have here. And she understands that. And so when I appear on her show, I don't, I'm past the point of intimidation, you know, relative to her. I listen to what she's saying and try to offer my 2 cents from a forensic kind of in a, in a stable you know, kind of steady hand relative to the science. And again, it goes back to in the, you know, if you're in the middle of the storm, you know, if you rely on the science relative to forensics, it'll, it'll set your compass in the right direction. You know, you turn off all the static and you look at the science. What does the science tell me? Is this plausible? Right. Okay. And so I stick with that, with her. And we've, we get along famously.

[Bubba]

Joe Morgan, subject to change, but you never know. Next phone call, I was going to go, right. Joe Scott Morgan is our guest. Joe Scott, tell us a little bit because you've mentioned Jack State. Tell us what, what's going on. And I know there's some changes being built around what you're doing, and it's very exciting. I've had a lot of people ask me about it.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, yeah. So we now occupy a rather one of the oldest buildings on campus. It's right on the quad, by the way, for those who have never visited Jack State, I would argue, and I've gone to a lot of universities, just from a physical standpoint, it is one of the most beautiful campuses in the south. I agree. If you get a chance to come here and take a look at it, there are breathtaking vistas here. We're ringed by mountains. It is.

[Bubba]

The mountains really set it off, don't they? They're beautiful.

[Theme Song Singer]

They do.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

That's why they call us the gem of the hills, you know, and you know that better than I do. You know, that's been, you know, that's a moniker that was hung on us. But with that said, you can have all the pretty pictures you want. If you don't have leadership that is going to allow you to grow intellectually. And from a practice standpoint, you're dead in the water. You know, there are all kinds of little colleges, all of you know, these private little colleges that are in these very bucolic settings and they don't have any students in the classroom. So you have to have leadership that's going to push it forward and you have to have a specific mission and deviate from that. And for us in forensics, I'm in the Department of Criminal justice and Forensic Investigations, we're the only one of our kind in the Southeast that provides what we provide. We have two tracks. One is a investigator track learning as field investigators. I call those my field mice. And then we have another track, track two, which is laboratory. I call those my lab rats. So field mice and lab Rats.

[Bubba]

Nice name. I like that.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And you can choose one of those two tracks in forensics. And we're all self contained here in this beautiful old building that we have on campus. We have a trace evidence lab. We have a crime scene house that's essentially a six or eight room house, including like a kitchen, a kitchen, laundry room, bathroom.

[Bubba]

So you can set the murder up wherever it took place.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have blood spatter lab, trace evidence lab, an interview and interrogation. We even have a fully functional courtroom downstairs so that you can learn how to testify. We bring in judges and prosecuting attorneys, defense attorneys, and you know, our students get grilled because that's a skill that you can't, you don't develop that when you go to a police academy. And so our kids get a taste of that. And then my area is I have my own cadaver lab now and that's something that's come online. So we actually have donated human bodies that our students have access to. And so I teach a class called Medical legal death Investigation. I teach at an undergraduate level and a graduate level. We're about to have a graduate degree in forensic investigations starting in fall of 2026. I'm already teaching one of the precursors for that. And so over the course of a semester, our kids will go in with me, they'll be lectured to, and then they go in and actually do real hands on with human remains. Folks, you talked about Quincy. There's that famous opening shot, you know, where he's. Go to YouTube and watch the opening. Quincy. People will understand what I'm saying. But he, there's a scene where he pulls out, I think he pulls out a striker saw, which is a bone saw. And he holds it up and there's academy cadets standing around and they all pass out looks over the body.

[Bubba]

I remember that well.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

The reality is that if you go through the police academy here, I can't speak to other states, but here and in Georgia, I've taught over there too. You don't. These kids in academy get no exposure to dead bodies. There are police officers that wind up becoming investigators that they're put into. Like in smaller departments it'll be crimes against persons which would handle homicides. Right. They've never been around a dead body. So we had this, we have this thing within us and I think people understand this. Where you're afraid of the dead, it's natural, right? So if you're afraid of the dead and you show up at a scene, you've never been around a decedent that inhibits your ability to be the best investigator that you can because you're always thinking, you know, I've seen too many horror movies. They're going to stand up and rip my face. Right, yeah, you're actually safer with the dead than you ever are with the living.

[Bubba]

That's right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

I can testify to that. So, yeah, we. We get our kids here seasoned in that sense, so when they exit from here, they will be able to say, okay, I've been around the dead, understand organ systems, understand basic physiology. I understand how an autopsy works, what the purpose of it is, what can I glean from it? I know how to actually roll a fingerprint off of a dead body, which is a skill that most people do not possess. It's something you need train our kids, do that here. Understand photography as it applies to morgue photography and death scene photography, you know, all of these little nuanced things that we provide for them before they go out into the world. And so it's a great, you know, it's this fantastic opportunity. And you couple that with. With all the other components in the forensic investigation program here, whether it's the trace lab or it's the crime scene house, the blood spatter lab, all of these different areas, and it all comes together. So when a kid walks across that stage, I'm proud of the product that we're going to push out because they're like, you know, students that graduate from me, and I've been doing this for over 20 years. I view them as like little bitty sailboats that we're kind of putting knowledge into, and then we're. We're putting them out to the tide and they're going to go worldwide. I got kids that work in Africa. I've got kids that have worked in Russia, Southeast Asia, all over South America, in, you know, wherever I have been. You know, they say, you know, I received this training there.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And so that's something that lasts for a long time. And so you want to turn out a good product. And I, you know, people might take exception to saying that, but that's the reality of it.

[Bubba]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

You're a product of the institution you come from.

[Bubba]

Absolutely.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And I view it that way. Yeah.

[Bubba]

We're talking with Joe Scott Morgan, and we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Joe, I want to ask you about some of the cases you're dealing with now and maybe a few, A few historical cases that we've talked about a little bit in the past. We'll be right back in just a minute.

[Theme Song Singer]

It's Bubba on the lake.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Bubba]

On the water or off, experience lake life to the fullest at Russell Lands. On Lake Martin. Spend your mornings with breakfast at Fanny's. Afternoons you can explore over 100 miles of trails through Russell Forest. And for dinner, how about the southern farm to table flavors at Spring House? Whether you're here for the weekend or you've made your home at the lake, Russell Lands is where community and the land come together. To learn more about upcoming events, visit Russelllands.com come see what lake life is all about.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Joe Scott Morgan]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Bubba]

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[Joe Scott Morgan]

and the best selection around.

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[Joe Scott Morgan]

all makes and models. Plus, we've got a tire center, parts department and a full collision center to keep you rolling.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Bubba]

Joe Scott, there's several high profile cases that I know you've been dealing with out here, and probably the one that has most notable may be the Guthrie disappearance. What, what are you, what are you following on that case?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Well, I mean, where to start?

[Bubba]

Yes.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, I'm following everything from, well, obviously where, where she is at this point to where did he go wrong? And I really take exception when people say, well, it's really easy to Monday morning quarterback. I'm not Monday morning quarterback. We're in the middle of the game, right? And to use that analogy, obviously, her disappearance is not a game, but just using a football metaphor there because, you know, it's like fly stuck on fly paper. The more it moves, the stucker it gets.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

You know, And I literally see that played out in this case. I'm just, you know, as our British friends say, I was, I've Been gobsmacked relative to the problems, you know, that have occurred along the way. The biggest one. The biggest one is something that's very basic that we teach here at Jack State, and that's scene security. You know, it's. You know, there's a reason you see yellow tape, right? And that means that this is our side. That's your side. And. And in the initial. The initial part to this case, they treated it as if it was. I don't even think they treated as a. As a kidnapping initially. They treat it as a missing elderly person.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And people say, well, you got to cut them some slack. Yeah, I might. However, when you walk out to the front door and you see blood deposition in front of the front door and you don't have her, you know, the question is, why don't you lock it down and why didn't you not keep it locked down? Because, you know, they went in initially, worked the house, worked the scene, air quotes there, and then released it. You know, you've got video of a pizza boy showing up, pool guy coming, two pool guys coming in, and this is into the scene, into this. I view it as kind of a sacrosanct environment that you're walking into, and people are coming in and out of the house. You got family members coming in and out. So any kind of. Anything with any evidentiary value. Right. Is kind of blown at this point. And I want folks to understand this. The world that we live in now relative to forensics is not like it was when I started. Okay. If people will just imagine going into a crime scene now is almost like going into a surgical suite, because we. We're not just working. We're not just working cases from those things that can be seen. We're working. We're working based on things that cannot be seen. Right. You could say that's always been the case. But when you get into things like touch DNA, deposition of microscopic evidence that, you know, now we have the ability to pick up on molecular evidence, all that stuff, every scene has to be treated that way. And so the first warning, warning shot that you have here is that you've got blood deposition out in front of that front door. And I have my own thoughts about what the origin of that is and, you know, kind of how it looks, how that blood spatter, if you will, looks.

[Bubba]

It tells a story, right? I mean, he got there. Something had to cause blood.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, blood always tells a story. And for me, that blood is going to be. There's a way we kind of view blood and how it's deposited, and people have heard about blood spatter and all that stuff. This is a very kind of passive. Passive blood deposition that you have here. If. And I. Look, don't. Don't believe me, always tell my students, go look it up yourself.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And by the way, the images, to give you an idea of how unsecured that scene is or was and is now it's been released. Now, the images that you see on the news, that's. That's from a reporter. Those are not crime scene images. Right. So you had a reporter that was able to get close enough to take these images at the scene, and now they're. They're everywhere. But when you look at those, even though they're not the highest quality, a couple things you pick up on real quick is that there's no. What we call directional spatter. Like if you have like a firearm event where you've got high velocity deposition, or somebody swings a baseball bat and they make contact, that's medium velocity. This stuff, this blood deposition, we know it's hers by the way it was tested. It's falling directionally. It's falling straight down. And they're about. I don't know, they're probably about the big droplets look like they're probably about the size of a nickel, maybe. And then if you look real close, you'll see these little, tiny, tiny depositions that are in there. Like really tiny blood droplets that comes about as a result of coughing or sneezing. Clearing your nose.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

It has some velocity behind it. You see it a lot with trauma. Somebody's been popped in the face, popped in the nose. We've all had nosebleeds at some point in time, and that's deposited right there. And so there's some kind of activity going on there. Was it there prior to the event? Possibly. But here's the other thing. In the video with a NEST camera where this, this specter comes out of nowhere and they're trying to cover that camera.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

They go off camera and grab a handful of weeds and they're trying to obscure that camera.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Okay. And which they eventually wound up disabling. And that data was sent up to a cloud. So they couldn't get it? Well, no, they secured the imagery. That's why we have it. But they pull that camera loose, you could tell somebody was aware of it. Well, what I'm saying is, along with the blood, this reason I'm going back to scene security, that blood is there, but also, Bubba, the. Those weeds he pulled Up. They're all deposited right there. That stuff was collected.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And the blood is next to a big black doormat. That doormat was not collected.

[Bubba]

I mean all of that needs to be brought in. Right. And reconstructed in the lab.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Absolutely. Because that's going to give you. That'll give you an insight. And looking at the nest camera now, the footage, you can see him stepping on all of the ceramic tiles that are out there. There's a grout and you've got the standard. And forgive me, I'm not a builder, I can't remember the dimensions of a big tile. But you can see where he's putting his feet. If they had locked that thing down and gotten that stuff off the cloud and avoided that area to walk on the cops, that sort of thing, you know, we could have gone out and done electrostatic lifts. They could have. Not me. We do it here at Jack State. Our students learn how to do it. Electrostatic lifts on those ceramic tiles. And you could have gotten a footprint off of that. He's walking in off of dust onto ceramic tile.

[Bubba]

Right?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

That's like easy peasy. 101. All right,

[Bubba]

So

[Joe Scott Morgan]

patient was here. You got an elderly lady that some neighbors say they didn't even know she was Virginia's daughter or they didn't know Virginia's mama. She's living alone in this house out of all the houses there in Tucson in that neighborhood. She was targeted. Right. Some reason. All right. And you know, I didn't just fall off turnip truck. There's got to be a reason why that particular little lady who's non ambulatory to a great degree, has to walk with either walker or cane. She's got a myriad of physical problems, everything. She's on blood thinner. She's on hypertensive hypertension medication. She's still got her wits about her. She's communicative. Even that morning, that Sunday morning, she was go with some of her friends to their house to participate in church service that Savannah participates in in person in New York. And so they would all get together and have church at this house and they couldn't find her. You know, that's how, you know, they started bird dog in this thing and realized that, you know, can't find her anywhere. So yeah, it's. It's going to just the. The screw ups on the front end. If they do find her, I don't have a lot of hope for her. State.

[Bubba]

Right?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

What I mean, right. Don't you know,

[Bubba]

it's just drug on

[Joe Scott Morgan]

so long hold Somebody responsible, they have a problem prosecuting this thing because there's so many foul ups along the way.

[Bubba]

You know, we, we had discussed some other historical high profile cases. And when you, you were talking about securing the scene, the John Bonet Ramsey was a total flop. Right. I mean, they blew that. Day one.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, they did. They did. And I show no mercy. Okay. As an instructor.

[Bubba]

Sure, sure.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

At all. Because you can't afford to say, well, we didn't think about this. The time for thinking about it is before you show up. You always, you work, you go to work every single day thinking that today I'm gonna work a major case. And I don't care if you live in dog patch, it doesn't matter because we found out real quick that bad things happen. Dog patch as well. It's not just in big cities. Right. And I have a heart for rural, rural investigators because they have to work with very little and sometimes they're, they're everything all in one. Okay? So there's no excuse for what happened with the Ramsey case. They had everybody and their brother in that house. They did not, again, did not lock down that house. You've got a note that's actually found laying on the treads of the interior staircase with specific knowledge about how much Mr. Ramsey. And I've been on a panel with John Ramsey. I know him. Not personally, but I've spoken with him on several occasions. You know, they did a horrible job of locking us down. And wow, imagine that they find her body in the basement, right, at the same house where they're eating, drinking coffee and eating Christmas cakes or whatever they were doing in there that morning. And no one took the initiative on it, really. And that thing got blown from the beginning. A lot of it came down to personalities. Still comes down to personalities. Nobody wants to look bad in it. But again, that goes back to being an advocate for the dead.

[Bubba]

Right, Right. You got to follow the facts.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah. You have to. And I don't, you know, I don't really care about your reputation or about, you know, what political aims you have or how it's going to give you or your department of black eye. You're talking about a person that's dead, a little girl in this case. And because you did not catch this individual, and I want people to hear this very clearly because you did not do your job at the beginning. This individual developed a taste for this, and I don't know what has happened since then.

[Bubba]

Yeah.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

So you have to look at these things from that perspective, because if you screw it up from the beginning. If you go in haphazardly, you know, you don't follow. Just some of the basic tenets of crime scene investigation and security. You're leaving the door open. You don't know what you're opening the door to because this is evil. All right? And as you know, if you open the door to evil, more evil comes in behind.

[Bubba]

Oh yeah, never takes a holiday.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Little things. You're right. Every, every little thing that we do as investigators, you have to watch it that way and see that, you know, you don't know how it's going to ring down. You know, for years and years. Just recently in the news, they, they found, you know, one more victim of Ted Bundy. That was last week. He died in 74. And they were able to tie her back to him all these years later. So that's kind of world that we live in now.

[Bubba]

Joe Scott, let me ask you this on the John Bonet Ramsey, because everybody's familiar with that and it has been documented and redocumented and all that. And I know you can't prosecute the case like you would like to now because of lost evidence, but armchair it a little bit. Tell me, what do you, what you think just you personally think happened in that?

[Joe Scott Morgan]

This is what I think happened. I think that whoever perpetrated this homicide had very intimate knowledge of this house. Years ago, I was on a program with the senior officer that showed up. The first one that showed up there was a young lady that was newer. She's the first one to go across the doorstep into the house. When the call came up, he followed right behind her. I'm not saying he was like a, an FTO field training officer, but he was there. He was a senior person. And even in that, that conversation that I had with him on air on this program I was on, you know, he talked about the, the missteps. But back to what you were saying, that house, according to him and according to what I've read, is incredibly complex of a structure. All right. So when you see the former Ramsey home, you just see this kind of gingerbread looking, I don't know what you call it, Tudor style kind of cottage looking thing. It's very deceiving. This thing is massive and it's multi storied. There are two sets of staircases in this thing. You kind of got like a butler staircase, you know that you can move unseen throughout the house, the primary staircase and there's multiple levels to it. So for me as an investigator, particularly when you consider where she was found in that, you know, what they refer to as the train room. Somebody had to have very, very, very intimate knowledge of this home. So who had to have been there and inhabited that space so that.

[Bubba]

That would be family or people that work for them that might be at their house. Right. I mean, it's a fairly small group, what you're saying, very tight group.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And, you know, these people were not. They were not from there. Okay. The Ramses were not from there. I think, you know, they lived in. Where. I think they lived in Atlanta for a period of time. I remember I was on duty with the ME's office in Atlanta when Patsy died. She was in hospice, Right.

[Bubba]

And then she got blamed for a lot of this. A lot of people thought she was the person involved or knew who did it.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, I've heard. I've heard that. Of course, you know, the brother.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Major lawsuit came out of that, right. To cbs. I always thought that they, they did that program. If anybody saw that program, they had the, the people that were. The forensics people that were on that, they were covering it. I really thought. I really thought that cbs, they had to understand the risk that they were

[Bubba]

taking of actually pointing out who they thought did.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Yeah, yeah. I think that they were trying to draw people out with it, and they wound up drawing somebody out. They drew out an attorney, and I think that the brother wound up suing them for $700 million. Oh, yeah, it was huge, astronomical amount. They wound up settling. Vernor, One of the modern godfathers of forensic pathology. He wrote the seminal text on medical legal death investigation. He was the chief ME for Detroit for years and years. He was on that program. He was very aged when you saw him. And he's the one that did the demonstration. I don't know if you recall this, Bubba, or if people recall this. The demonstration with a flashlight, you know, striking down on the head. It was very controversial that a kid that came in that was like a facsimile of the brother and had the kid hold a flashlight and strike it down like this. They really rolled the dice with this thing. And so. But I still go back to the idea that whoever did this had intimate knowledge of that environment. Because this is not, you know, this isn't, you know, this isn't like your brother's trailer house out on the lake, Right. Somewhere.

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

You know, they go on weekends, you know, there's not one, you know, two doors where you just kind of walk down. There's a.

[Bubba]

Be easy to get lost in there.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And you Got the right. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's a maze. I mean, it really is. It's. It's complex. And plus, you were having to do this at night, right? I mean, there you're navigating this area. And the other thing is, is that you're not going to go around flipping lights on.

[Theme Song Singer]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

The note has always bothered me because it was found in such an intimate space. And this thing is. By ransom note standards, this thing is verbose. I mean, it goes on. It's a page and a half, I think. Right. It had very specific information about John Ramsey's bonus that year. They claimed that they found the notepad

[Bubba]

that it was written on.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

That was their notepad, the family's notepad. And it was impression evidence on the backside where you could see the pressure points from the pen writing.

[Bubba]

So he didn't write it till he was in their house.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Who shows up for a kidnapping, Right. And they're going to write the kidnapping note where the target is. You see what I'm saying?

[Bubba]

Yeah. That's just very strange.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

The whole thing, you know, really stinks for me. And then they, you know, they claim that they have. This is the big thing out there that's still hanging in the air. And John Ramsey has been think of as you may, you know, he has constantly talked about he wants to get this thing resolved. And they have this DNA evidence that they allegedly have that they have been teasing everybody with for protracted period of time that they're going to try to get people to run. They. They've always been very hesitant about calling the feds in to bring their resources in. First it was the locals fighting with the state police and the state police fighting with the locals. And you've got this clash of personalities. The original guy that you saw, that was in all of the video clips, he had the wireframe glasses. He was a prosecutor. He's dead now. You know, I mean, he's. He's no longer with us. The guy that actually began to work this. One of the initial investigators that they brought in that was this renowned investigator that he looked at it. He's dead now. So, you know, as time goes by.

[Bubba]

Sure, sure. It's been a while.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Been a minute coming. It's becoming a faded memory. And that's all sad, and I'm sorry to hear that. But I'm. My biggest concern from a forensic standpoint is what's the status of all that evidence?

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Where is it? Because now, you know, you can't. You cannot say now that we don't have the technology to solve something. I cover, I cover what are called Othram cases every day. I'm a big supporter. I've got a big announcement coming up about Jack State and Othram, by the way, pretty soon I believe what they're doing. And they're doing forensic genetic genealogy. And they can take degraded DNA now, even the smallest sample. It's not like back in the day during the O.J. simpson, you know, where like you might need a blood droplet size of a quarter in order to facilitate some type of DNA profile. Now we can do it at a microscopic level with a tiny sample. They claim they have DNA. I want to know what status of it is, how's it being protected and are they submit it for, you know, that DNA that is there, Are they going to submit it for genealogical test?

[Bubba]

Right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

And you know, and that'll you create a family tree that way and next thing you know you've got third and fourth cousins that are pointing the finger at you. All right, that's, that's how precise this thing gets.

[Bubba]

All right.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

They can fold that thing back out and say, you know, this guy's Kent who are deposits is kin to these people that have entered their stuff into this database and we're going to start pulling that through. That's what they did with Coburger.

[Bubba]

Mm. Yeah. It's amazing how technology has carried this. Joe Scott Morgan is our guest. If you're a true crime fan, you already know that name. You've seen him on Fox, you've seen him on cnn. Just got. I could, we could talk for hours and I promised I wouldn't keep you but about an hour today. But let's get. We do it. We want to let me, let's do this on a book a time, get you back. And I want to talk about some current cases and also some of these historical cases like JonBenet Ramsey and you know, of course JFK. We've, we've sit around and armchaired that one too, which I have a real interest in that. So.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Got it. Hey, I got an idea for your listeners.

[Bubba]

Okay.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Send Bubba some questions. Yeah, Bubba, some questions. I'll be glad to, you know, I'll be glad to answer anything you got within reason.

[Bubba]

Absolutely. [e-mail] Joe Scott Morgan, thank you. I know you got classes to teach and some other things. Thank you for taking time with us and we will definitely have you back in the near future.

[Joe Scott Morgan]

Thank you for having me on.

[Commercial Announcer]

You're listening to Bubba.

[Theme Song Singer]

Bubba on the Lake.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Bubba]

Experience lake life to the fullest at Russell Lands on Lake Martin. Want to know what's going on around Lake Martin? Check out the calendar of seasonal events that include Fridays on the Green, naturalist events, fireworks, concerts, poker runs, boat shows, juried art shows, boat parades, and much more. If you're here for the weekend or if you've made your home at the lake, Russelllands is where community and the land come together. To learn more about upcoming events, visit Russelllands.com come see what Lake life is all about. Well, all right folks, that will just about do it for this edition of the Bubba on the Lake. Thank you for being here with us. We appreciate it. Keep the cards and letters coming, as they say. The address is bubbaonthelake.com you also can leave a comment at 308 Big Lake. We'd love to hear from you. And as always, we remind you to turn on notifications. Follow us on social media. All of that stuff that you do figures into the bigger equation of helping us to promote this podcast and keep it on the air. We also want to thank all of our sponsors. You've heard them during the show. If you need their services, we ask that you reach out to them and even if you don't, maybe let them know you appreciate them sponsoring the podcast. We sure do appreciate them. So folks, we're going to wrap it up here and reminder again, we want to congratulate and let me get his name correct. Here it is. Well, I had it. I can't find it now. Tyler. Let's see what Tyler Brown. That's right, the student at Ohio State University. And he was the winner of our bracket challenge. We're going to be getting him $500 and we're also going to talk with him probably on the next podcast about how he did his picks and he did an amazing job and it had to be hard for him to pick Michigan being that he is an Ohio State student. So we'll dive into that also on the next one next podcast. So until we sail into port again, remember, God loves you. We do too. And thank you for being part of Bubba on the Lake. This podcast is brought to you in part by Russell Lands Koch, Buffalo Wild Wings Southern Immediate Care Guaranteed Labels Central

[Joe Scott Morgan]

State bank, Sunrise Docks, Dr. Thomas Dudney

[Bubba]

and the Green Monster Fishing Light Beat

[Theme Song Singer]

U Double B A on the lake hey wishing I could listen to the show every day hey gotta hear what Bubba and his buddies gotta say on B U double B A on the lake in the mellow yellow studio putting on a show Betty say what she always on the go we go got hunter bus sitting at master control don't want to miss a moment cause Bubba's got the flow roll be you bubble B A on the lake hey wishing I could listen to the show every day hey gotta hear what Bubba and his buddies gotta say on B U double B A on the lake hey B uble B A hey B U B A hey B U B A B U B A on the lake Height.