The Art of Sales Without the "Sales Tactics"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Build Your Business: From Fear to Freedom

Episode: The Art of Sales Without the "Sales Tactics"
Release Date: April 4, 2025
Hosts: Matt Reynolds & Chris Reynolds
Network: Barbell Logic, The Radcast Network

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In this insightful episode of the Build Your Business Podcast, seasoned entrepreneurs Matt and Chris Reynolds delve into the nuanced art of selling without resorting to traditional "sales tactics." Aimed at helping business owners and startup founders navigate the complexities of growth, this episode offers a wealth of strategies centered around authenticity, trust-building, and customer-centric approaches to sales.

1. Rethinking Sales: From Pushing to Solving

Chris Reynolds opens the discussion by contrasting positive sales experiences with those that feel pushy or pressure-laden. He shares a personal anecdote about purchasing a high-mileage truck, highlighting how an authentic, knowledgeable salesperson can transform a typically stressful negotiation into a seamless, friendly interaction.

Chris Reynolds [11:12]: "Everyone hates, I don't know anyone that would say, I love salesmen. Everybody hates salesmen."

This sets the stage for the core theme: shifting the perception of sales from a transaction-focused activity to a solution-oriented process.

2. Authenticity: The Cornerstone of Trust

Matt emphasizes the importance of authenticity in sales. He argues that genuine care for the customer's problem is more effective than any scripted sales pitch. Authenticity not only builds trust but also fosters long-term relationships with clients.

Matt Reynolds [13:16]: "I'm pretty good at putting myself in other people's shoes and to understand, like, okay, what if I was in your shoes? How would I feel about this thing and how would I see it?"

Chris reinforces this by highlighting that sales should be about solving problems rather than merely selling products or services.

Chris Reynolds [12:00]: "We solve problems with our company and our personal life and whatever. We solve problems for our clients."

3. Customer-Centric Approach: Starting from the Customer's Standpoint

The Reynolds brothers stress the necessity of viewing sales from the customer's perspective. Recognizing that every sales interaction begins with being a customer themselves, they advocate for empathy and understanding as key drivers in the sales process.

Chris Reynolds [11:24]: "We solve problems for our clients. That's why they stay. Don't churn, have high lifetime value."

4. Mastering the Discovery Call: Acting as a Consultant

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to optimizing the discovery call. Matt describes his approach of treating these calls as free consulting sessions, where the primary goal is to understand the client's core problems deeply.

Matt Reynolds [26:09]: "I'm going to give them a free hour of consulting. Nine times out of ten, I say that I'm like, listen, here's the deal. I'm not gonna charge you for this hour."

Chris adds that effective discovery calls involve asking probing questions to uncover the root cause of the client's issues, rather than just addressing surface-level symptoms.

Chris Reynolds [31:00]: "You asking questions is controlling the conversation through the questions to get to the root, the literal root cause of the potential client's problem."

5. Disqualifying Leads: Focusing on the Right Customers

Both hosts agree on the importance of disqualifying leads early in the sales process to ensure alignment between the client's needs and the business's offerings. Matt outlines his strategy of assessing whether a potential client fits their ideal customer profile based on factors like budget and specific needs.

Matt Reynolds [14:20]: "The very first thing that I'm looking for is can I disqualify them from my... from being a good potential client for me, that's it."

This approach not only saves time but also enhances the quality of client relationships by ensuring that both parties are a good fit.

6. Reducing Friction: Low-Risk Entry Points

To facilitate seamless client onboarding, Matt and Chris advocate for reducing barriers to entry. This includes offering free trials, no long-term contracts, and easy registration processes that allow clients to experience the value of the service without significant upfront commitments.

Matt Reynolds [44:41]: "We register with no friction. We don't take their money up front. We let them start to test out and beta test, play around with the software and they don't get charged until 30 days later."

7. The Land and Expand Strategy: Building Long-Term Relationships

The hosts discuss the "Land and Expand" methodology, where the initial sale is just the beginning of a long-term relationship. By delivering exceptional value early on, businesses can expand their offerings and increase the lifetime value (LTV) of each client.

Matt Reynolds [48:00]: "This is good for both parties... You're just trying to build a bridge to have trust between two parties. That's it."

8. Learning from the Experts: Influencers and Thought Leaders

Throughout the episode, Matt and Chris reference influential figures in the sales and marketing domain, such as Alex Hormozi, Russell Brunson, and Dan Martell. They highlight how these leaders emphasize authenticity, value delivery, and strategic pipeline management.

Matt Reynolds [52:00]: "I very much like the Russell Brunson books. I think the whole concept around the way that you do Pipeline is really, really valuable."

9. Practical Application: Implementing the Strategies

The Reynolds brothers provide actionable steps for listeners to apply these sales principles:

• Act as a Consultant: Offer free consulting to understand client needs without immediate pressure to sell.
• Ask Deep Questions: Dive beneath surface-level issues to identify the root problems.
• Provide Value First: Deliver significant value upfront to build trust and demonstrate expertise.
• Be Selective with Clients: Focus on clients who align with your business's strengths and values.
• Leverage Referrals: Utilize satisfied clients to generate new leads through referrals and testimonials.

Matt Reynolds [26:24]: "Think of yourself as a consultant for them for free for an hour."

10. Conclusion: Building a Trust-Based Sales Framework

Wrapping up the episode, Matt and Chris reiterate that effective sales are built on a foundation of trust, authenticity, and genuine problem-solving. By adopting these principles, entrepreneurs can transform their sales approach from being transactional to relational, fostering lasting business success.

Chris Reynolds [50:06]: "That's how you grow the company... by making sure that you're not ending up with a bunch of people who are like, this guy took my money and then I didn't really get the thing that I wanted."

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Key Takeaways:

1. Authenticity is Crucial: Genuine concern for the client's needs fosters trust and long-term relationships.
2. Customer-Centric Sales: Understanding and addressing the client's perspective leads to more effective sales.
3. Effective Discovery Calls: Treat sales calls as consulting sessions to uncover and address core client problems.
4. Disqualify to Qualify: Early assessment of leads ensures alignment and prevents wasted efforts.
5. Reduce Friction: Low-risk entry points encourage clients to engage without hesitation.
6. Land and Expand: Focus on building relationships that allow for future expansion and increased LTV.
7. Learn from Experts: Incorporate strategies from renowned sales and marketing thought leaders.
8. Provide Value First: Delivering significant upfront value builds trust and showcases expertise.

By embracing these strategies, business owners and entrepreneurs can refine their sales approach, moving from fear to freedom and achieving sustained growth and success.

Transcript

[Matt Reynolds]

You're listening to the Build you'd business podcast powered by Turnkey Coach, where we help business owners find freedom over fear. I'm Matt Reynolds and I'm his brother, Chris Reynolds.

[Chris Reynolds]

Join us as we help build your business and move from fear to freedom together. You were talking about you've been waking up really early. How early did you wake up this morning?

[Matt Reynolds]

2:30.

[Chris Reynolds]

Okay. So yesterday. And do you track your sleep? You track your sleep at least on your sleep? Eight, right, or eight sleep? Eight sleep. Yep. By the way, would be a great sponsor for the podcast because we love it. We both paid the $5,000 or whatever it is for that thing. I woke up yesterday morning at 2:40am I just looked at it. I slept 5 hours and 44 minutes. So I went to bed at 8:56, got up at 2:40. I went so hard that the only thing I ate yesterday was a half eaten roast beef sandwich that I just found in the fridge and heated it up for a minute and ate it and got right back to work. So that's the life that we're leading right now. Again, this is part of this. Like we're actually founders and business owners. So you Woke up at 2:30, your brain went nuts, I assume, and you were like, I'm just getting up.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yep. I was like, I, I was already planning to get up. I had a lot of work to do. So I was like, I'm gonna get up at like 3, 3:30.

[Chris Reynolds]

So had you set an alarm for like 3:30 or anything or.

[Matt Reynolds]

I had, but it never works. It's not like, like I wake up before my alarm every time.

[Chris Reynolds]

So except for the occasional plane trip where I have to set it for 3am Occasionally that wakes me up, but it's pretty rare. So yes, funny story yesterday. So I get up at 2:40am I work nonstop. I have a ton of calls, I'm working on stops, I'm working on big. We got a board meeting coming up. I'm working on financial plans and all that sort of stuff. And when I say no breaks, what I mean is not enough time to go to the bathroom, not enough time to get a coffee, not enough time to make food. So. Right. So Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I have a roof over my head, which is wonderful and I love it, but yesterday was one of those days. So at about 7:30 last night, all my. So my youngest is kind of sick and she's up in a room just, you know, I don't. She's got tuberculosis or consumption, I think it might be the same thing.

[Matt Reynolds]

The consumption.

[Chris Reynolds]

The consumption. We're gonna have to take her probably to the ER in the next couple days. She's on antibiotics and prednisone and all that fun stuff. So she's up there holed up. And my youngest daughter was down at the cabin and doing a bonfire with her boyfriend. And my wife had a church event. So I was home by myself and it was like seven at night. I hadn't eaten anything. I ordered something and ordered some Mexican food, I think, which I barely made. I mean I a third of it because I didn't really even have time to eat it before it got cold. And I thought, I've been working since 2:40 in the morning. And so I'm going to turn on a movie in the background that I've seen a million times that I don't have to pay attention to that I love. And I'll work a little slower, obviously, because I've been working for 16 hours or whatever. My brain is going to be slow. So I turn on the Big Short, which is one of our, both of.

[Matt Reynolds]

Us, one of our favorite.

[Chris Reynolds]

I mean, if you haven't seen the Big Short and you're a business owner, you should watch it because it's about the financial crisis in 2008, 2009, the housing market crisis. I've probably seen it 25 times. I can quote most of it, right? So it's playing in the background. It's kind of like the volume's kind of down and I'm just working and the screen's open. And my oldest daughter comes home at maybe 8:45 or so and immediately starts taking video of me sleeping in my chair with the laptop open on my lap, which I know is kind of a dad thing to do, it's just not a me. I don't typically fall asleep in my chair. I'm like, when I get sleepy, I go up and go to bed. But I fell asleep in my chair. I think I'd been sleeping for at least an hour. I probably fell asleep at 7:30 or 7:45. And then she woke me up and the whole family is laughing hysterically at me. And I was like, guys, I have worked since 2:40 this morning with no breaks. I didn't train, I didn't walk, I didn't eat, I didn't go to the bathroom, I didn't make coffee. That was my day yesterday. And so lest anybody think that the book that I wrote, Undoing Urgency, is not written specifically for me and also hopefully helps other People, it is. And it came out on Audible on audiobook in the past week and it's cheap and it's great to get. So I had one of those days where I just fell asleep because I was so exhausted at the end of the day. And then when I woke up this morning, I opened up my laptop and of course the tabs were all open from the things I was doing last night. So I went up to bed and I immediately went to sleep. Rachel, my wife is like, she got home from her church thing, they're all laughing at me. And I wasn't really embarrassed because I don't really get that way. And she's like, you okay? Have you had a lot to drink? And I was like, I had one beer and I don't even think I finished the beer with dinner. So no, this is what happens when you work a 16 hour day, 17 hour day, and you, you don't take any breaks. And so today may be one of those days for you.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think I did it yesterday too. So like I, it's just my sleep is so bad at this point and.

[Chris Reynolds]

It'S, that's not good.

[Matt Reynolds]

So there's nothing to do with eight sleep. This just has everything to do with, I don't know, I just, I, I stopped caring about it. Everybody's all crazy about their sleep. They're like, ah, I gotta get like the 80%, 90%. I'm like, yeah, screw that, I don't care about that.

[Chris Reynolds]

I will say my deep sleep is pretty good. So like two nights ago when I got up at 2:40, I still had two hours and 36 minutes of deep sleep.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah, I usually get that too. That's right.

[Chris Reynolds]

Which is pretty good. And then last night I slept a little over seven hours, still got up early. But part of when I get up, like getting up early, we've talked about this before, still very much affects me at night. It doesn't affect me that much during the day. So this morning I got up at 4, yesterday's 2:40, that's a pretty big difference. So like if you wake up at 4, 4:30, 5, whatever, as a founder and today or the day, you're listening to this or whatever, someday this week you get up at 2:30. At some point that hits. And for some people it hits at 10:30 or 11:00 in the morning. And for me it hits at like 6:30 to 7:30 at night, where all of a sudden I become Forrest gump and my IQ drops below 80. And so that's where I was. So. Okay, so you woke up early. I had a ton of stuff to do as well. We're doing lots of sops and fun stuff. And I'm excited. I mean the stuff that I'm doing I'm excited about. And I would assume it's the same thing for you. We're not like in crisis mode.

[Matt Reynolds]

No, I mean, in fact, I think some of mine is just. Is driven almost entirely by my excitement for it. Like when I wake up I just think, would I rather get up and make coffee and do the stuff I want to do or would I rather lay here and sleep?

[Chris Reynolds]

And that's exactly what I think. I was like, if I wake up at 2:30 and I'm like, if I sleep another hour and a half and I wake up at 4, I think to myself, but how much work could I get done in the next hour and a half?

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah. And I mean the other thing that I always think about is I could always take a nap. If I want to take a nap, I can take a nap. Right. And sometimes I do, sometimes I take a nap. Most of the time I don't though. Most of the time I just kind of keep going. And like you at 7:30, 8:00 I'm like a complete disaster. Don't really answer questions from any. Anybody in a sane way. And that's just sort of the way things go.

[Chris Reynolds]

Sure.

[Matt Reynolds]

I've also noticed as I've gotten older that my sleep schedule is. I get went from being very consistent. I fall asleep the exact same time I wake up at the exact same time to I typically still fall asleep the same time, but I wake up a little bit random times like 22:30, like not late, never late, but like.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right.

[Matt Reynolds]

Maybe super early or really early. Like one of those two is when I wake up and you know, and like one or two days a week I'll sleep what is essentially close to seven hours.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Matt Reynolds]

And that's all I need. Like I just a few times a week I need to hit that and.

[Chris Reynolds]

I'll be fine if you're good at deep sleep. Huberman has said, and I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but if you have a night that you have terrible sleep, it actually should not affect the next day that much. But if you have three, four, five, seven days in a row of terrible sleep, it definitely affects it. And that's kind of my. Again, we're obviously very genetically related. If I wake up at 2:30 in the morning for four days in a row Then there will be a day that I go to bed at 6:30pm yeah. And I sleep till 4:30.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

And I'm like, holy. Just slept 10 hours.

[Matt Reynolds]

That's right. That's what I do too.

[Chris Reynolds]

It's pretty rare.

[Matt Reynolds]

Okay.

[Chris Reynolds]

All right. So that's the cold open. Welcome to the build you'd business podcast with your co host, Matt Reynolds and Chris Reynolds. I'm Matt, he's Chris. You have heard from both of us, and we want to get in today about how do you sell without feeling salesy? Start from the customer standpoint, because everybody's been a customer here. As a matter of fact, I was just at a car dealership. My truck has almost 160,000 miles on it. It's in beautiful condition. You've seen it. It's awesome. Looks great. I complimented on it all the time. But that level of mileage is like, it's time for a new truck. And I had a great experience in my local town because it just didn't feel like I was talking to a sales guy. Now I knew I was talking to a sales guy, but this guy was pretty good because he actually knew, I think, that I was serious about, like, it's time to trade in this truck and get another truck. And the most painful part of buying a car is the negotiation of the price and the interest rate or whatever the thing is. And so. But he doesn't do that. The sales guy doesn't do that. The finance guys do that. So he was just able to kind of be my friend and do the thing. So he did this. I had this experience, but we've also had the experience where we felt pushed by or felt like there was pressure put on us by a salesperson. And so everyone hates, I don't know anyone that would say, I love salesmen. Everybody hates salesmen.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yep.

[Chris Reynolds]

And if you're listening to this and you're a salesman, I get it. That means you have to change your perception to the customer from salesman to, I'm helping you do a thing.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right.

[Chris Reynolds]

And I don't want to get ahead of myself. So let me start with this. We're founders. We're business owners. Some of you are listening to this. You've got hundreds of employees. Some of you have zero employees. You're the only one. What is the number one job of a founder? Because you hear this all the time. The number one job is to make sure there's enough cash in the bank to pay the payroll or whatever the thing is. But if I just asked you point blank what is our number one job as founders and business owners? What do we do?

[Matt Reynolds]

We solve problems.

[Chris Reynolds]

We solve problems.

[Matt Reynolds]

That's it.

[Chris Reynolds]

And that means we solve problems with our company and our personal life and whatever. We solve problems for our clients. That's why they stay. Don't churn, have high lifetime value. If you do this well. And we solve problems for potential clients.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yep, that's it.

[Chris Reynolds]

And that's sales. All right, End of podcast. We can cut it off. I mean, like, if you can understand this concept, that is sales.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah. So I think the, you know, the reason that I have been so effective at sales over the course of my life, and I always have, and I didn't know that I would be. Honestly, when I first started, I mean, I was a kid. I was. I was in my 20s, early 20s. Right. Had never done any sales before. I was nervous, like, I'm gonna go stand in front of board meetings and, you know, do this thing. What I didn't expect was that because I'm naturally pretty empathetic, like, I'm pretty good at putting myself in other people's shoes and to understand, like, okay, what if I was in your shoes? How would I feel about this thing and how would I see it? If you just do that, you're gonna do great at sales. Because all you really need to do is imagine that you're that other person.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's right.

[Matt Reynolds]

And go, what thing does that person care about? What thing do they need to get done? What problems do they have? How can I help that out? Can I solve it?

[Chris Reynolds]

And by the way, if you can't solve it, you shouldn't even try to sell them.

[Matt Reynolds]

No, you shouldn't sell them.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's a morality issue.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah, don't solve.

[Chris Reynolds]

I'm not just trying to cash the check. I'm actually trying to solve their problem. And so typically, we would go from like 30,000 foot view to the trenches. I actually want to do the opposite today. Let's start in the trenches, where you're talking to a potential lead. So you've got. You have a lead or someone that you're trying to sell your product or service for. It's an actual human being. You're not giving a general speech, which I do actually want to at least touch on for a second, or you're speaking to a general audience, which I think looks a little bit different. What are the primary things that you're looking for when you are speaking to an individual that is a especially. And they should be a decision maker for the company on whether to purchase your product or service.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah. So I mean, when I do this, the very first thing that I'm looking for is can I disqualify them from my. From being a good potential client for me, that's it.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's.

[Matt Reynolds]

That is my initial thing. I try to disqualify them first.

[Chris Reynolds]

And how do you disqualify, like, what would be some of the things?

[Matt Reynolds]

So there's a series of things that I kind of go through. Like one of them is, are they the right size? Like a lot of times people are looking for in our business, a lot of times people are looking for help, don't really have the budget for the thing that they're looking to do. And I don't want to waste their time and I really don't want to waste my time. And so it's just. It just doesn't fit. There are other aspects of it where the customer is looking for. They're looking for something that we are not. Even if they have the budget, they're looking for something that we are not and. Or we're not particularly good at it. We're not the best at this thing. And usually I know who is the best and I'll just be like, you should go talk to these people.

[Chris Reynolds]

And by the way, that creates. So one of the big things, I think that maybe the most important thing for a salesperson is to. We talked about this on the last episode is to create trust. So when they see you as a salesperson, they trust nothing. You say.

[Matt Reynolds]

That's right.

[Chris Reynolds]

When they start to see you as a person who is an advocate for them to solve their problem, even if that means it's not us, hey, you should go talk to me dot com. Because they solved that exact problem, we could solve this problem. That's not really what we do. It takes a lot of hours. We'll probably be more expensive, but these guys are awesome. Then immediately what you've done is you've put yourself in the back of their mind so that when they have a problem, that is the thing you solve, they follow up. So it becomes there is a long tail piece there. When you start to build trust with the potential client, even if they're not the client today or in the next couple weeks, maybe it's two years down the road, you have lots of stories about this where you've started to post lots of content on LinkedIn and people that you've known in past years that you forgot existed or whatever, and they've reached back out because you built a level of trust with them. And they're like, I know you can do this. And you're. That is. Would you say that's one of your greatest lead sources?

[Matt Reynolds]

Oh, no question. That is. That is our only. Truthfully, that is our only lead source outside of direct customers. Our direct customers reaching out to other people or other people talking to them. So we also get them through our, our client base, right?

[Chris Reynolds]

Yeah, like a, like a one degree of separation.

[Matt Reynolds]

One degree of separation. That's pretty much where we get. And you know, we're not, we're not trying to be some massive scale, billion dollar agency. And so I don't want to grow faster than that. I need to grow well. And so that doesn't really matter. But the thing that I think is, really, is really important about this is if you do this, if you sort of take that approach, you're not trying to sell, you're trying to solve.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's right.

[Matt Reynolds]

And if you.

[Chris Reynolds]

Wait, hold on. You're not trying to sell, you're trying to solve. Right. The goal is not to show them all the bells and whistles and things that you do. It's to figure out and dive deep. And we'll dig into this, continue to peel back the onion skin and the layers to figure out what is their actual problem, what is their actual challenge, and can you solve it. And if you can, show them how you can solve it. I think too many sales guys want to do demos of the whole thing. Here's all the stuff we do. Generally, they don't care. They don't care because they only have one or two problems. They might have eight and six they don't know about, but you're trying to solve the one they care about right now.

[Matt Reynolds]

The one they care about now.

[Chris Reynolds]

Here is the bottleneck in my business today.

[Matt Reynolds]

It's so much easier to. To get their attention when the thing that you're delivering is the thing that they need right now. There's all kinds of places for you. Like, again, you know, put yourself in the position of the, of the buyer, which you are very frequently. Right. You're the buyer.

[Chris Reynolds]

Sure.

[Matt Reynolds]

There may be things that you want to buy in a year and, you know, like, like, I know I'm probably in the car market in, in the next year, probably. Right. But if I have a car guy come up to me and say, like, you know, I want to sell you a car now, like I'm.

[Chris Reynolds]

Is.

[Matt Reynolds]

Now's not the time.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right.

[Matt Reynolds]

You know, six months might be the time. Right. You hit me at the right time. We'll be good to go. The other thing I wanted to say is, like, it's not just the sales guy that is distrusted at the beginning of a conversation or whatever. It's everybody. Humans are just built this way by default when you interact with a complete stranger. We've all seen the news. We've all, you know, everybody's been exposed. A lot of stuff, like, you start with distrust. That's where you start. Like, I don't trust this guy.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yeah. You're running them through filters. Yep. See if they pass the test.

[Matt Reynolds]

There's a million things your brain is doing.

[Chris Reynolds]

A good human or is this a human that's trying to take advantage of me?

[Matt Reynolds]

Yep. And so there's a lot of. Are they like me? Can I, can I relate to them? There's just a bunch of stuff that our brains do. And I think one of the things that is really important to think about is when you start with a. There might be an opportunity here, and I'm going to start pursuing it versus there might be an opportunity here. But first I'm going to see if it even makes sense. And maybe I'm going to suggest something else. You go up, you go up 20x in their mind for, like, for trustworthiness. And I've been in the situation enough times to be able to tell stories about it. I had one last week. Last week I had one where I was talking to a guy, he wanted some help getting sort of a very messed up situation in their software turned around. And so we're talking about it and I'm starting to perceive that maybe there's not a lot of budget here to do this thing. And so I said, listen, let me, let me stop you right here. There are many ways to get this done in a, in a way that is going to meet your budget. But I don't think we're, I don't think that's us.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Matt Reynolds]

I don't think people call us in as Seal Team 6 to go solve an extremely difficult problem where I need. You need, you know, four guys with 20 years of experience.

[Chris Reynolds]

You're the wolf from Pulp Fishing.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right. So you don't.

[Chris Reynolds]

You're the guy that comes in and cleans up the dead body. We got a massive crisis solution and in 24 hours this thing is fixed.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right.

[Chris Reynolds]

But it's also expensive. And because your budget is $5,000.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right.

[Chris Reynolds]

And because it's not uber, uber, uber urgent, then there are lots of other people that will do this over the course of the next couple months that will meet that budget, but that will not be us.

[Matt Reynolds]

That's right. And so what. What happens? What happens when that happens? They can't get enough.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's.

[Matt Reynolds]

They can't get enough.

[Chris Reynolds]

They're like, ooh, I like this guy. I want to build trust with this guy.

[Matt Reynolds]

I literally didn't take this one. So this is a great example where I said, listen, why don't you go. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to go talk to other people and I'll give you a couple of. I'll send you an email with a couple of places you might check. Okay. And the only filter you're running is, do I trust that these people will actually solve my problem, or are they going to take my money and I'm going to still have a problem at the end of the day? That's right. That's the filter you're running. I think you already know from talking to me, we will absolutely solve your problem. I. No doubt, because we've not failed ever on any of these projects. So we'll do it, but we'll be super expensive. So your thing, your filter that you're going to run on this thing is, can I get this done for cheaper and still get the confidence that this thing is going to get done?

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

And the guy's like, oh, okay. So he goes within. It wasn't even 24 hours inside. The next morning, I wake up, I open my laptop, there's an email from the guy. The guy's like, I don't really want to take the risk. I want you guys. You're the ones I want. And I was like, I hate to tell you this, man, but fast.

[Chris Reynolds]

But it's not going to beat you.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

So this is a.

[Matt Reynolds]

Some people would put this into play as a tactic. I'm telling you, don't do that. Don't put it in play as a tactic. It's not a tactic.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right. Just be real. So, number one, the best way to sell without feeling salesy is to be authentic.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yes.

[Chris Reynolds]

Like actually care about the lead.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yes.

[Chris Reynolds]

Whether you close them today, tomorrow, two weeks, or two years from now, or never, you care about helping them. You are a problem solver as a founder, or if you're a sales manager or whatever, you are a problem solver. You solve their problem the best way that is possible. And if that's not you, you send them somewhere else. And if it is you, then you can start to work into that sales pitch. So number one is authenticity. Number two, we've Kind of danced around it, but we haven't said it, is that the person asking the questions is in control. My job and I, you know, we're both. We can both turn on the kind of external, big extroverted personality I've had to learn on sales calls, which you would think, I think most people would think would be, I need the most extroverted personality. It's the opposite. They need the person that's going to ask the questions and dig deeper and peel another onion skin off and then another one and another one to actually ask the question. So even if they're. If they're asking questions like, okay, why do you cost so much for us? Or what other certifications do your coaches have? I just respond not with an answer, but with a question. What certifications matter to you and what price point matters? What does that have to do with. And I learned this at the gym. When somebody walked into the gym and the first thing they ask at the front desk is like, how much is the monthly membership? Wrong customer.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yep.

[Chris Reynolds]

We sell service here. We sell coaching. We sell excellence. This is not. I won't say the name, but we are not a big chain. Global gym, purple equipment, $10 a month membership. Those are all over the place. Go get one of those if you want a dollar double cheeseburger, which I don't think they sell anymore, but back in our teenage years, dollar double cheeseburger, we don't sell those. We sell a five wagyu beef. We can sell it fast, but it ain't cheap. Yeah, that's what we do. Now, by the way, if you're listening to this and you sell dollar double cheeseburgers, then quantity is your. Like, do it. Go after the quantity. Yeah, I'm after quality. I want less customers, more money. I don't want more customers, less money. Right. The way you figure that out first is to be authentic and actually care. Even if in the first 30 seconds you've disqualified them as a potential client for yourself, give them another 10 minutes of your time as the CEO and founder of the business to help steer their ship, to solve their problem.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah. So let's talk about maybe a practical way that you can do this whenever you find yourself in one of these sales situations. Because this is quite literally the way that I approach it. I stop thinking about myself as being someone who is selling our services, and I just think about myself like I'm a consultant for them and I'm going to give them a free hour of consulting.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

Nine times out of ten, I say that I'm like, listen, here's the deal. I'm not gonna charge you for this hour. I've been doing this for a long time. Let's spend a whole hour doing nothing but talking about the problems that you've run into. I'm gonna tell you how I would solve it if I was in your shoes.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

And in some of those situations, it might. It might be, you need to find a company kind of like us. And in some situations, I'm gonna say, we'd be the wrong company in that situation, and I would go a different way. And this is what it is.

[Chris Reynolds]

Sure.

[Matt Reynolds]

And if you're honest about that process, you're of course you're going to ask. You have to ask questions. You have to find out more about them. What is their problem? What are you going to do? So think of yourself as a consultant for them for free for an hour.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

And you're going to say some things that, you know, the Gordon Geckos looking on from the outside would be like, that's a terrible idea. But like, this is.

[Chris Reynolds]

This is just no coffee for you. Right.

[Matt Reynolds]

Genuine authenticity. And people are so not used to that. That is so rare in today's world that you win just by being authentic. And don't, again, don't make it a tactic. People can read this as a tactic. Don't make it a tactic. Be literally willing to recommend something that isn't you and walk away and be done.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

That's it. That's the game.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yeah. We have coaches that come in all the time. They're like, I need a programming software, but I don't really care about coaching my clients or having a relationship with my clients. I want to sell them a template or a program. We will send them somewhere else. That's not what we do.

[Matt Reynolds]

That's right.

[Chris Reynolds]

So also, this comes back to previous episodes is understand exactly who you are, what your core values are, what you do. I understand in the beginning, in the first six months of business ownership, you're often taking every amount of business that you can. And I'm not saying don't do that, because I think that you don't even know what your niche is yet.

[Matt Reynolds]

You should do it. I totally agree.

[Chris Reynolds]

I've done a lot of sales calls lately where they're like, I'm trying to figure out where my niche is. Is it business executives or soccer moms or high school athletes or whatever the thing is, well, if you don't know, just take them all.

[Matt Reynolds]

That's right. That's the right move.

[Chris Reynolds]

And then figure out which ones stick and which ones you relate to.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right, that's it.

[Chris Reynolds]

Okay. So real authenticity. And then two, we call this a disco call, which means a discovery call. And you talked about it as a consultant, which I think is actually a better metaphor. I often think of it as like a journalist or somebody who is just trying to learn everything they can about the person and the company. The difference between the consultant and the journalist is the journalist has no answers. They just ask the questions. The consultant asks the same questions or maybe better questions and then provides a solution which may not be you. That's how you come across as not being salesy. So the first step is after like truly caring and being authentic. And by the way, let me just make the point. Some of you founders out there are sociopaths. And I don't mean that in a horrible negative sense because there are like, I'll just, I think Elon is probably a sociopath. I think he can look at the numbers. Like I, you know, I've watched him a couple times around his kids get emotional. But for the most part that guy is just like on the spectrum. Numbers, right? Well that guy shouldn't be selling stuff. But you have people on your team or you should have people on your team that are empathetic and can actually understand other humans problems and can put themselves in the seat of the other human and will not be faking authenticity. And then so if the authenticity is real, then you ask all the questions. If they ask a question, don't answer it. Here's the tactic. Answer it with a question, with a deeper question. They asked a question but they're on like surface level. I'm trying to get deep. So I'm going to say I'm going to ask a follow up question that tries to get them down another level or two of depth. Why does that matter to you? Why is that important? That was the first question you asked me. You can say those things. It's okay. I'm trying to understand where your roadblocks are, where your speed bumps are. Like where's the problem? Where's the challenge? And eventually if you ask enough follow up questions, and by the way, the average is 7. If you're good at it, it may not take that many. You will figure out the absolute core root problem, not the symptom of the problem, but the actual problem.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yep.

[Chris Reynolds]

Once you ask enough questions and you're controlling the conversation not by talking your way through the demo, which often in tech we want to do because we're so proud of the product or the service we offer, but you're controlling the conversation through the questions to get to the root, the literal root cause of the problem of the potential client.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah. And think about the fact that like, if you're on this sales call and you're a founder and let's say that it's kind of early stage stuff. Right. By definition, you should be the expert in the area right now. Maybe you're not sometimes, maybe there's. And if you're not, truthfully, you need to say you're not.

[Chris Reynolds]

Sure.

[Matt Reynolds]

Say it and get off the call.

[Chris Reynolds]

Sure.

[Matt Reynolds]

Like that's fine. Most the time though, you're going to be the expert. And so the reason that we look at this, like, think about it like a consulting call where maybe you're literally just advising on it for free. That's it, that's what you're doing. Maybe you're a good fit, maybe you're not. Try to be disinterested about that piece.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

But the reason we say that is, look, this person, there's a two way value stream that's happening on this one hour call. All right. If it's an hour, I don't know how long it is. Like a lot of these are 30 minutes. Sure, there's a two way value stream. One of them is they literally get the advice of a complete expert for that period of time for free. That's huge. That's huge for them. You need to deliver a lot of value in that timeframe.

[Chris Reynolds]

And by the way, our company, and my guess is your company has paid many thousands of dollars to consultants for that exact thing. So they're $1,000 an hour to tell me everything they know about X, because X is a problem. And I don't want to put them on the payroll. I want them to teach me. And by the way, if you're phenomenal at what you do, you probably shouldn't be consulting. You should probably be trying to get on the payroll. Right. But for us, we've paid a lot of money to tremendous experts in the field of whatever legal, financial stuff that's kind of outside our realm, that we've paid to tell us everything they can tell us to work through our projects and say, here are the places that are, here's the holes and fix it and here's how I'd fix it. And then you. And then you send them a thousand dollars and you fix it.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right. So like the thing to remember here is especially as a founder, not just as a salesperson. Now I would Have a slightly different conversation with a salesperson. It's not exactly, it's not exactly different, but it's different enough. And that is you are talking to someone who may or may not be inside of your target customer profile.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right, right.

[Matt Reynolds]

If they're in your target customer profile, you get to learn a lot during that same time frame. Ooh, that's an interesting problem that maybe we're not addressing directly in our product or service and maybe we could. Right. How much are they willing to pay for it? Like, they'll probably tell me that and then I can at least have some idea of what. You know, I'm getting new information and I'm getting good ground level information. The other thing that you're getting in that relationship is let's suppose that they are outside of your target market and you don't want him inside of your target market. Right. Like, it's just. No, this is really not our expertise. This is really not the thing. Now you have another interesting thing that comes out of it, which is there might be potential partnerships with somebody that is.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's right.

[Matt Reynolds]

That is perfect. Right.

[Chris Reynolds]

And you have another referral program where you refer and you get some sort of kickback or whatever.

[Matt Reynolds]

Anytime you find that you have just found a tangential relationship, I would say there's like right beside it. I don't, I don't. Tangential is a bad word for this. But, but the I. The whole point of it is that you're like right beside each other in business, but you're not really competing with each other. And when you find those adjacent. Thank you. That's a better word. When you find those, you want to make relationships with those people because. With the founders of those companies. Because you can refer to each other in that context and it can be a very, very valuable relationship. So you're learning all kinds of things on these calls. It's not that you're getting nothing, but you should definitely aim to provide about. You should aim to provide about 10x the value that they're providing back to you.

[Chris Reynolds]

Correct.

[Matt Reynolds]

Make them get off the phone and immediately call somebody and say, I just had the craziest sales call I've ever had. That was fantastic. Didn't even sell me anything. And I learned all kinds of stuff about it. Like that's what you're looking for.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right. And for the founder or the seller, the salesman, the sales manager, you're still collecting data on the industry to understand. It gives you a pulse. This is why I think, like, there's a lot of Books that talk about sales management, that the sales manager should not do calls. I disagree. I don't think they need to do the same number of calls as the salespeople because their job is to train the salespeople, write the SOPs, do the things. But in the same way that we at Barbalogic and Turnkey Coach actually utilize the software, that is a massive moat because I'm using it every day. So I know exactly what it looks like. That's really important. Right. So let me go out to 30, 30,000 foot view and I'm gonna come back, right back to the trenches. So 30,000 foot view, you get the opportunity to present to a group of people. 30, 300, 3,000, doesn't matter. Right. And you know that there is a significant percentage of people in the audience that are your target demographic. This is the one time that you should have a very polished presentation based on the time limit they give you of the general solutions that you solve or even say specific solutions. These are the problems we solve as a company. And I've done this. And you've done this with investors, with groups of people who are sitting in a room, who are potential clients.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yep.

[Chris Reynolds]

The reason I'm saying this now, that's the time to give the quote unquote demo or the overview of what you do, not at the personal level. So the overview, the demo goes to the group if you get that opportunity. And then each time you get the opportunity to quote unquote pitch, there has to be a goal at the end. So when I go and do a public speaking event to a bunch of strength coaches, my goal is to get them to come to my booth and actually sit down and do an actual face to face disco discovery conversation where I can figure out what their personal problem is, what their business problem is and I can offer them a solution. I can show them like, hey, exactly what I just heard you say. Let me show you how our software solves that. Or let me, because I know everyone in the industry, we don't exactly solve that problem. Let me send you to the right person. Hold on just a second. I'm going to send you a text, I'm going to connect you with this founder of this company. And they do exactly that. Right. So, so the general demo of the overarching problem solving skills that your company has goes to a general audience. So again, that might be podcasts, that might be YouTube, it might be public speak. It's often public speaking, trade shows, things like that. Once you get to the one on one Piece. You start with the discovery, the questions and ask more questions and ask more questions, ask more questions and get to the root cause of their problem. And if you can solve that problem like especially perfectly, then you go from disco or discovery to demo. I'm gonna demo, not the whole thing. Like we have software, you have software, you have dev team. I'm gonna solve. What I heard you say was your two biggest challenges are this and this. Let me show you how my software will solve those two problems. And I will often say our software does a million X that and if I show you everything, it'll freak you out. So I'm just going to solve the problem that you stated today.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

And we're going to cover that problem today. The reason I'm saying this is that there should always be a goal in mind. So if I'm speaking to a general audience, the goal is to get a face to face meeting like in person or on Zoom. So I'm setting up a follow up call next week on Zoom or I'm literally having them come to the booth or whatever and talking through that stuff where they can actually get one on one personal time for me. And that's where the discovery comes in and I'm digging into what is their actual problem. Then if I can solve their problem, I demo how we can solve that problem. If I can demo it right then in real time it's an amazing. Like that's the best thing you could possibly do.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah, that's right.

[Chris Reynolds]

Don't tell them you can solve the problem. Show them you can solve their problem. You said your problem is X. Let's go ahead and set up that problem and let me solve it right now and you can see how it is. And then the last piece for us is that. And again for each step and it'll be different for every company. Is there has to be a goal in each step of this. Right. So if I solve their problem and they're like, oh my God, that just solved my problem, then the goal is to collect their information. I've got to get their name and email for sure. At minimum for us, what we do, and I think you guys do it a little bit different is their first month on our SaaS software is 100% free, no contract. What I'm going to try to do if they're like this is awesome. It solves my problem, My goal in sales and we have a process of acquisition which is sales activation, which is like fully converting over to the thing. So think about the CRM, how long it takes to get to HubSpot or everything integrated into HubSpot or Salesforce or whatever and then expansion which is driving up LTV of the client and keeping them long term. So my job is part of the acquisition team. By the way, I'm a CEO who is a non technical, non operational. That's not entirely fair, but I'm definitely more wired to be sales. I can close. My COO said the other day he was like, he can sell a red popsicle to a woman with white gloves, right? And I'm like, yep. But the problem is is that the sale alone doesn't solve any problems. Yeah, it's not till you get to the activation part where they actually utilize your service or product or software or whatever it is that you actually solve the problem. So for us a closed sale is step one, registering for our software cost you nothing. So the piece of this that I want to touch on is reduce all the friction you can possibly reduce. Like get rid of all the friction, register no contract, don't have to put in billing. Start playing with it, see if it works for you. You'll get an email and a follow up call C scheduled or go ahead and schedule a follow up call for next week with our head of customer service. He's awesome. He'll walk you through all the steps. Like start playing around with it. And when you run into a speed bumper roadblock, he will help walk you through that. He'll share his screen on zoom and fix that roadblock. So we register with no friction. We don't take their money up front. We let them start to test out and beta test, play around with the software and they don't get charged until 30 days later, a month later for using the software. Now we don't get paid unless they have clients on their roster. As strength coaching company, if a coach signs up, we get no money. So registration one is no friction for them, but it immediately creates friction for us. Our goal now is to get so the end of the sales process for us is to get them registered for the software and get one client on their roster. So do you have a client, a spouse, a friend, someone you've coached for five or six years that can test this out from the client side and we can go ahead and add them as part of this sales process. If I can get them at the end of that sales process, if I've been authentic with them and I care about solving their problems, if their problem is something that we can solve, if I can show them that we can solve that Problem. I have essentially a hundred percent close rate on getting them to register. And then I go, now let's just add a client and you're right here. Or we're gonna share the screen on Zoom. Like we're either face to face or we're gonna share the screen on Zoom. We're gonna add a client. Okay. Do you have a client that you love, trust, and will not leave you if what I'm saying is a lie and it sucks and it's not and they'll stay. Right. So if it's a spouse or sometimes it's even. Do you have another email address? As a coach, you can set yourself up as a client. You can see it from the client side on your mobile phone. You can see it as a coach on the laptop. So the goal there is registration number one. An actual client they'll pay for 30 days later, which by the way, is like between five and ten dollars. So it's nothing. The risk to reward ratio for the client is extremely low.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

And then if they, once they get there, the acquisition process is done, and then we have a really smooth bridge in the onboarding to allow them to walk them through getting all of their clients on the roster. 20, 30, 40, whatever. The thing is. And so that is, that's how you sell without being salesy. So you listen, you ask questions, you find the problem, not the symptom of the problem, the actual problem. If you can solve the problem, show them how you can solve the problem. If you can't solve the problem, send them somewhere else. You'll build trust and they'll come back 18 months later or six months later or like your story 24 hours later and say, because you sent me to somebody else and you actually didn't try to take my money on day one, then I want to go with you. And I'm willing to pay the extra money to get it done and get it done fast and get it done right, then you can do that. And then the goal is to reduce the friction as much as possible to start that process. And from there you move into the. How do I get them fully activated? How do I get them? And this is different. Like when I was in personal training or at our B2C business block, if somebody ponies up 300 bucks a month for coaching, they start training tomorrow. And the activation is easy, the expansion is hard. How do I get them to expand to nutrition? Coaching the academy, learning more about this stuff for the coach. You want that actual acquisition to be easy, and then you want to Walk them through. We've got all these automated emails and pop ups on the app and whatnot that come up. But we always tell them, look, there is a real human that works for us. That's not a third party, that you have their contact information, email and phone number. You can call them at any time. Our head guy's in Scotland, so he's six hours ahead of me, five hours ahead of you. So call him in the morning and he will open up his computer, he'll share his screen and he'll walk you through the problem and get you fully activated. And then once they're fully activated, then we have a smooth transition. Handoff to the expansion team, which then is looking to expand their ltv, make sure they don't churn or that you don't have turnover there. That that's how you, that's how you sell without feeling salesy, is that you can feel confident when you're off the call that I didn't just try to get money. I'm not Wolf of Wall Street. I'm not, you know, whatever. And those, by the way, Glen Ross, Wolf of Wall Street, Boiler Room, those are three movies that every founder should watch.

[Matt Reynolds]

Love these movies.

[Chris Reynolds]

If you want to, like psych yourself up and like, let's go, let's, let's do this, then those are great movies. But the reality is what you're actually trying to do is not take their money, Right. You're trying to solve their problem.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right. So everything that you just said, I think could in many ways can be wrapped into this little bundle of all sales are land and expand. Right. So this idea is essentially that, and this is good for both of you, this is good for you, this is good for the customer.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right.

[Matt Reynolds]

Because what you want is for them to take small iterative steps in the direction of maybe your full offering. Whenever you read sales books, if you go get any of the Hormozi books, if you look at Brunson, we're talking about sales pipeline and the first thing that you do is provide them something at a very low cost that drives a lot of value for them. And the reason that you're doing that is not just because, I mean, they'll talk about the science of as soon as they open their wallet, their increased likelihood of doing it again. The reality is you're doing this because this is the way that they are risk mitigating.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's right.

[Matt Reynolds]

And you are also risk mitigating.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's right.

[Matt Reynolds]

Because you also need to find out whether they're a Good customer or a good client or not.

[Chris Reynolds]

If in that first step, they email you 40 times, guess what, or call your customer service 20 times.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah. Not a good fit. And so you, you definitely. This is good for both parties. And at the end of the day, all that's really happening is you're just trying to build a bridge to have trust between two parties. That's it. And that trust is going to get deeper the more they take a little baby step into it and like, what they see, appreciate the value they're getting, feel like they're getting more value than they're paying, and the more that you feel like, hey, this is a great customer for us. We can make a profit. And this is a sustainable model for us to grow this business with customers like this. Right. Perfect. Now, if you do that type of thing, then you also get really good feedback.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right. All that networking, all those people know other people you want to. Constantly. And we'll talk about NPS and Customer happiness Index, things we use, things you use. We'll do that. I don't know if on a future podcast, but the reality is, is, like, you start to really hone in on who the demographic is that you can actually truly please and will stay forever.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right. That's. That's how you grow the company.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's right.

[Matt Reynolds]

Well, by making sure that you're not ending up with a bunch of people who are like, this guy took my money and then I didn't really get the thing that I wanted, you know, that's.

[Chris Reynolds]

That's horrible.

[Matt Reynolds]

That's death for a company. Like, you won't survive that. Yep. You. You'll survive one of them. You won't survive 10 of them or a hundred of them, for sure. Or even five, you know, but, like, if you consistently drive this value, then getting the word I was, by the way, is testimonial. You'll get good testimonials from people, and that stuff is gold. You can use that on your website, you can use that in your marketing, you can use that, whatever. And people. And people love it. So this process of building great relationships with your customers, it starts at sales.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

And it never starts with this hard sell mentality that, like, is pushing for dollars. Like, don't do that. Like, go slow. You'll get there over time.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

And they'll surprise you.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep. We'll probably dive more into the weeds a little bit more in a future podcast, but for now, who are some of your favorite people that you're looking at? And knowing that, here's the Deal. For any influencer that's on the Internet, there is a little bit of that, like, cringe factor.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

And so you have to take what's good and leave what's not. Or, you know, what applies to your company. And so, like, you know, so we talked about Hormozi, which we actually went to Vegas a few months ago and actually met him and Layla, and it was. It was great. So who are some of your favorite people? Or do you have off the top of your head that you're like, I follow these people and I learn from them on this process?

[Matt Reynolds]

I mean, honestly, I don't have a ton of these. I. I do really like Hormozi. I like. The Horozi's message is very in line with a lot of what we're saying here. It's like, look, you people think they can sell a service and not be the expert. That doesn't work. Why? Because you can't get on that call and drive a ton of value for them because you don't know what you're doing.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

Right. So, like, there's no easy road through this.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right. If.

[Matt Reynolds]

If you're great, if you're as great as you say you are, then those calls will be easy to get because people will be begging to have them every so often, at least. Right. Maybe you don't have a giant pipel yet. Great. But when you do have it, it's going to be pretty obvious. And so I'm a big fan of. I'm a big fan of that perspective. I. I very much like the Russell Brunson books. I thought they were great.

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

I think the whole concept around the way that you do Pipeline is really, really valuable.

[Chris Reynolds]

By the way, he's the funnels guy.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

And I can't remember who his mentor is. The old guy with the mustache.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah. I can't remember.

[Chris Reynolds]

But you'll see. So the Brunson books will give you everything you need for the funnels.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

Hormozi, if not authentic, feels authentic.

[Matt Reynolds]

Feels authentic. For sure.

[Chris Reynolds]

They've done a great job. And Layla is the same. I like them. Dan Martell, which I've talked to several times, same sort of thing. Like, there's about 30% of the salesy stuff you gotta, like, toss out. And you got to figure out, where is this guy actually bringing value? The other one that we didn't talk about, and maybe we will in a future podcast, we're actually still trying to work this out, you may be as well, is to get them into the initial Call or discovery call. Disco call, as we call it. Or face to face meeting. They know who you are, so your marketing team gets them into the funnel, but we need them to actually schedule a call. Yeah, there's a guy on Instagram called Jeremy Lee Miner. Jeremy L E E M I N E R. Listen, he probably won't come on the podcast now because I'd like to have. He's kind of douchey. He's kind of salesy. But here's the thing. He knows one of the hard things is that how many sales emails do you get a day?

[Matt Reynolds]

Oh, I've literally. I can't even keep up my email at this point with how many there are. It's ridiculous.

[Chris Reynolds]

My EA, Dan Shell does a tremendous job. I probably get 50 email. And the emails get better and better because they're using AI, so they say, like, oh, I loved your podcast on the build your business podcast with Chris about this episode and this problem that you solved.

[Matt Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

Then I open it and then I'm just like, this is just a sales.

[Matt Reynolds]

Email selling me crash.

[Chris Reynolds]

Okay, so Jeremy Lee Miner, by the way, I've never paid for anything. I don't have any relationship with this guy, but he is like the email guy. And because I think if you're an online business figuring out how to email people and get a high return on ad spend or return on investment for your emails, trying to tighten up those emails, I would love to get to a point where we can do a podcast where we're like, here's what the email should say. And it will absolutely dramatically.

[Matt Reynolds]

It'll double your inbound pipeline. Yeah. However you build that pipeline, it's really. Outbound pipeline. Yeah.

[Chris Reynolds]

Right. Get that call set up, whatever it is. So those are some of the ones I follow. There are others, but those are the big ones. Hormozi's great. Met him. Nice guy. Super nice guy. Layla. Same thing. But the reality is it still comes back to the principles that we just talked about. Authenticity. Figuring out what their problem is, the root problem. Can you solve it? If you can solve it, solve it. And then figure out what the goal is to close. Like, what is the close goal? Is the close to get them to spend $25,000, which is a lot harder. Or is the goal to get them to register and test the thing out for free for 30 days, you know, beta test that SOP has to be built, but it still all stems from you can't get to registration or payment or billing or anything without step one, which is authenticity. Do you actually care about solving the problem.

[Matt Reynolds]

I would like to try. This would be interesting, I think, for the podcast, but I think it would be fun to try to apply this authenticity principle to this outbound sales motion. So the idea here is, and the very few that have worked on me will hit me up on LinkedIn with nothing more than value with his zero ask, right? Right. All they're doing, like, it's such an easy thing for me. I get a hundred thousand people in LinkedIn that reach out to me and say, hey, Chris, have you thought about blah, blah, blah. And it's like their sales pitch is in. Is in the first four sentences. Like it doesn't work, right?

[Chris Reynolds]

Yep.

[Matt Reynolds]

I turn it off. Like, I don't even. I assume if the first thing you say to me is a sales pitch, like, you're not actually right. It would be very interesting if what you were doing was picking out who your sales leads were and literally reading up on them to find out what's going on and how do you determine, you know, what, what their needs are and you do nothing more than provide value for a period of time. Hormozi recommends this for free, right?

[Chris Reynolds]

Mosey recommends, as a consultant, like you said, for an hour or whatever, for free.

[Matt Reynolds]

Are you an expert? If you are, then surely these people would be interested in at least getting some of the information that you want to provide them. If it's not marketing material, like, it can't be marketing material. It needs to be, like, stuff they need. And it's free. Right.

[Chris Reynolds]

Perfect.

[Matt Reynolds]

Interesting.

[Chris Reynolds]

Awesome. That's another episode of the build your business podcast. Thank you so much for listening. We would love a five star review on Apple podcasts. Again, Undoing urgency available on Audible or Audiobooks for somewhere between a dollar and two dollars. So it's a great time to get it. And I know you got another call and you got to jump off, so we'll wrap this up. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you guys next Friday. Sa.