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- [00:00]
A
The little elements that speak to the customer in ways that outside of the design, right? So the color, the color schemes, the elements in the background, even what you're putting on the shirt, you know, if you know the niche inside out, you. The. The idea is to get them to wear something that other people, when they look at them say, where'd you get that shirt? Right? That is the goal. That's the impact you want every single time.
- [00:25]
B
Welcome back to Built Online, the podcast where we dive into everything online business. Here we explore the minds of. Of creators who are building online businesses to power their dream lives and ultimately transform economies. I'm your host, Cody McGuffey, and if you're new here, I'm the founder and CEO of Ever Be, a creator commerce platform where we believe that everyone deserves the opportunity to pursue their passions and to live life on their own terms. We're on a mission to make creator commerce accessible to everyone throughout the world, no matter where they are, and to make a positive impact in our families and our communities. And we believe that everyone that truly commits to a vision and pursues it with an undeniable force of will, that they will ultimately succeed. I'm really excited about today's show. Thank you for sharing your time with us. Before we jump into today's episode, I'd like to ask a quick favor for anyone that's listened to the show before. If you haven't already, please let us know if these episodes and these conversations are. Are helpful or not. Share your feedback in the comments and review it if you. If you would. It truly helps the podcast, it helps our team, it helps me personally understand what types of guests that we should have on the podcast that really just helps us improve the show to make it better. We need your feedback. We would not be able to operate without your feedback. So be sure to follow the podcast, subscribe to the channel wherever you're watching this. So you really never really miss out on that. That one nugget that can really change your business and change your life. Enough of that. Really excited to have you here. Let's jump into today's show. Jay, what's up, man? How are you?
- [01:56]
A
I'm well, Cody. Nice to finally meet. I feel like we were just kind of chatting, you know, before hitting the record button. It feels like we kind of know each other already a little bit, right?
- [02:04]
B
I know. It's so true. We were saying, like, how I feel like I've seen your face so many times when the same chat groups and different groups and see you on YouTube. Listen to you on podcast. I think you and Leslie had a chat a while back in Belize forever be and stuff, and it's great to finally sit down and actually have a good conversation.
- [02:23]
A
Yeah, it was pretty cool that you. You guys had Leslie come out to Belize. That was, you know, mind blowing. And it's pretty sweet to be able to, I guess, leverage the elements that we have at our. At our, you know, disposal, like the Internet, for example. Being able to live stream from Belize and the doors that POD has opened up has just been like absolute game changer. So, yeah, grateful. Grateful and humbled to be here, man.
- [02:50]
B
Amazing man. Super happy to have. Have you on. You have an interesting background, and I personally am. I want to dive into it because I'm just literally curious about why you made the decisions that you've made throughout your life. I mean, you're from Canada. You're now living in Belize. You have online business money, which means, you know, you're supporting your lifestyle with through online digital entrepreneurship, which is very inspiring to me. And also, I'm sure it's inspiring to so many people listening to this. Just for anybody that doesn't know Jay, I'll give a quick little what I. What I would describe you as, and then you can fill in the blanks. But Jay is a Canadian. He's a former bank employee, turned print on demand and other things. Basically an online entrepreneur who has built multiple thriving businesses. Etsy, Amazon, paid subscriptions for stuff, generating well over $2.5 million in sales all through the Internet. Fill in the gaps. What did I miss there?
- [03:56]
A
Well, we. Yeah, it's kind of crazy when you, you know, say the numbers out loud, right? Like, I still feel like imposter syndrome guys know is. Is absolutely a real thing. Even, you know, mentioning this a little bit. I don't always feel like. Yeah, I, I guess just sometimes you just feel like an imposter until you. Especially when you hear those numbers, right, because people throw around the words like guru and stuff like that. And I'm never going to profess to know everything because the algorithms are always changing, the platforms are always changing. So it's. It's just, you know, humbling to be kind of cast in this kind of group knowing the people you've had on, you know, before me. But two days from now, it'll be a year down here in Belize. And in that came, you know, just by making these steps outside of our comfort zone and doing things that we didn't think we'd be comfortable with, we by default, fell into landlordship. So we, instead of wanting to sell our house to come down here and maybe buy something or build something, we had purchased a piece of property, you know, three years ago, but then didn't want to pull the trigger on selling our house back home. Right. You want to have that safety net. So, yeah, we're landlords. You know, it's generating more income than we're putting out down here because of the osmosis in everything people just saw the move to Belize is like, oh, this golden ticket. And you know, it's not all, you know, sunshine and rainbows, but yeah, it's pretty sweet when you take a minute and look at what you're able to do because of pod. And as a result, people were asking for private coaching so much in the last year and watching our transition down. So that, that led to, you know, this wasn't me trying to capitalize on the spotlight or anything like that and monetize it. It was just literally people asking for one on one coaching over and over. And I don't want to do one on one coaching. I was offered like, you know, a thousand bucks a week to, for like, you know, two. Two coaching sessions or whatever to. By several people, like ridiculous amounts. I'm like, I don't want to commit to just one on one. I'd rather be able to help as many for, you know, one of the best bang for bucks out there. I want to make it accessible too. So that kind of led to that and it was kind of, you know, in my Facebook group, I just put it out there like, you guys really want this? Is this a thing? Like, because I'm gonna. It's gonna be another full time, you know, job, right? So if I'm gonna dive into this and we only have 12 of you show up, then it's like, I'm gonna be bleeding money here, right? Because it's not going to cover the, you know, the platform fees, the subscription fees. There's all kinds of things in the background. But yeah, we went from like 0 to close to 300 quickly, which is insane. Super validating, especially for a guy who's like chronically ADHD meets impostor syndrome. Always, like looking at, you know, what, what have I done wrong? Is it my mice still spread too thin? Right? That's one of the things. But yeah, man, short story, really long, all kinds of stuff. We had our own print shop back in the day. I've always been hustling T shirts from, from the get go, but I don't think you missed Anything other than. Yeah, I don't think you missed anything. Yeah, I think you covered it all there.
- [07:00]
B
Totally. And there's a lot more to cover and that's kind of the point of having you on. So hopefully we have to pull this stuff out of you. But I'm looking at the map right here as you're talking about Belize. And be honest, I didn't even know exactly where Belize sits on the map, so I was actually pulling this up. So for any of you guys that fall in my camp.
- [07:14]
A
Yeah, we share a land border with Mexico on the east coast. It's. Nobody knows where Belize is for whatever reason. It's just not, you know, really.
- [07:22]
B
So it's technically North America. Right. But it's very South North America, Is that correct? Because it's right at the bottom of Mexico. Bottom of Mexico, right next to Guatemala.
- [07:30]
A
Central America. So Belize, it's, you know, they always have Central America in there. But I mean, you know, as soon as you cross that border into, into Mexico, you're considered North America. So I mean, you're right on the cusp, but it's considered Central America. But then they have Caribbean islands. Like they like, we're on one of the keys that is in the Caribbean Sea. Technically beautiful.
- [07:51]
B
And so to give someone a sense of, of how would it cost to live in Belize? What does it cost like, to live a great life? Okay, maybe. Great. And there's like really, really good, I guess. What does it typically cost somebody if they were to make that move?
- [08:07]
A
I would consider what we're living here. Really good compared to, you know, the local Belize.
- [08:13]
B
Canada. Okay, gotcha.
- [08:15]
A
Yeah, like, compared to that. But compared to Canada. Yeah, it's a whole other. It's compared to North America, like, but I'll start there. It's like cost of living is high on the keys. So the keys is just, you know, a word. Same idea as an island, ultimately. So everything is imported. Our island is doing the quick math. From kilometers to miles is about three miles by a half mile. So it's small, right? Populations about 2500. In high season, tourist season, it doubles to about 45 to 5000. Things here are expensive, but good. Like a two bedroom apartment that. It's a concrete wall. That's why I can't hang stuff on it. But it's, you know, it's a temporary apartment here that we, we had for the last year now 1100 US and then electricity is another 300.
- [09:10]
B
Okay.
- [09:11]
A
So it's not cheap by any stretch. Cauliflower, you know, ahead was US$15, which is kind of ludicrous like, but you know, inflation, we're not immune to inflation down here and everything else. Right. It's not just a US problem, it's not just a North American problem or Canada problem. But yeah, I would say, pardon.
- [09:33]
B
That gives me a good sense. I mean essentially it doesn't sound like it's like it's going from U.S. or Canada to the Philippines. It's not like that. Or Thailand.
- [09:40]
A
No, it's not cheap.
- [09:42]
B
Yeah, it's not like cheap, it's just more like it's probably beautiful. And I'm sure you're going to go into the benefits of why you made that move. I'm actually very curious of if it's not about the money necessarily, then what was it about it?
- [09:52]
A
Well, conversely, like if you're on the mainland, for example, rent is half, right? All the things cost half. It's just so much. This is a touristy island that still holds its 40 year ago charm. So there's no cars on the island, your bicycles, golf cart, taxis. Two feet in a heartbeat you're hoofing it everywhere unless you choose to, you know, ride a bike. But yeah, so like health benefits that way. Yes, things are more expensive but they also have much, you know, shorter and expiry or shelf life. So the food, for example, produce and stuff, you got four or five days tops, you know, unless it's unripened, but once it's ripe it's, you know, it's not like at home where our stuff through the winters were, had to be pumped full of hormones and chemicals and preservatives to last two weeks up to, on a truck and then two weeks on a Walmart shelf before it lasts another week or two in, in your fridge or on, on your counter. Right. These are things that are, you know, going bad in four or five days from once they've been harvest because they're that much better for you ultimately. That said, walking here the first six months, I dropped 30, 32 pounds. I think I put on another two or three, but 30 pounds, yeah, I went from 215 to 185.
- [11:05]
B
Because you're moving, just because you're moving, you're moving around.
- [11:07]
A
Yeah, we sit around perpetually. Click. Right. I used to joke that this was my workout, right? Get the, you know, mouse clicking, finger worked out and that's it. That was my, my warmup for the day. But yeah, no, other than, you know, we had three quarters of an acre back home. So like we're not really Walking the dog, go to the dog park for the socialization element. And then we're just running around the yard, right? So it's not like. But here we're walking everywhere, you know, and we're, we're moving, we're doing things, we're eating better food. The dairy. Like I was like, what are these cows? Like, I remember being in Costa Rica for the first time as like a home away from home for 30 days. And we saw these dairy cows in the mountain and they don't look like the Holsteins or whatever, like the black and white ones back home, right? They were all these dark and brown and not beautiful looking cows by any stretch, but you can see the ribs on all of them. And I'm like, oh God, they're sickly, right? But no, it's because they're not supposed to put out 70 plus liters of milk a day. They're eating grass, grass all day. They're, they're healthy cows. But the dairy industry in North America is like, these cows are just pumped full of stuff to produce more. And it's pretty gross when you see that, right? When you, when you kind of connect that. So like we, we've, we cut out not dairy, but milk back home just because, you know, doctors was like, yeah, no, that's one of the most inflammatory things you could ever have if you have joint issues or any kind of things. But then the dairy down here is completely different. Right. We don't have any ramifications. It's. Yeah, it's an eggs too. I didn't know. But eggs don't need to be in a fridge. They're only in a fridge in North America because they're washing the membrane off and they're putting chemicals on it to reduce the longevity of the shell to sterilize them. But all it means is that now you have to refrigerate them. They can last like four or five weeks at room temperature if you don't wash the eggshell. Crazy. So like that's normal.
- [12:58]
B
Yeah. I mean, sorry. Yeah.
- [13:00]
A
Tangents.
- [13:01]
B
No, no, it's good. No, it's really good. I mean, the interesting thing is that a lot of people listening to this, I remember I'm putting myself back in their shoes. They are probably driving home from work, maybe on the lunch break at work, and maybe in the stuck in this like nine to five type of deal. Or maybe they're a full time mom and they're a full time parent, full time dad and they're just like, I need to create some sort of optionality, freedom in my life. And wow, Jay has created this life to where he can literally pick up what he's done in Canada, leave, leave this home country and actually go all the way down to Belize and actually set up a new life. And his income really hasn't taken a hit. I want that type of option now. I might not necessarily want to live in Belize, but I want the option to be able to go to Belize. I want the option to be able to go to see my parents in the central USA and stay there for two weeks or something like this. How did you. Okay, maybe not how. Let's talk about what type of income streams did you have when you kind of felt comfortable enough to do that? You saw on Amazon, you've sold, you saw on Etsy, you do these other things now. At this point you have some rental income. But like, at what point did you feel confident you're like, I have enough to make this move?
- [14:20]
A
At no point. At no point, man. Same same idea with leaving the bank. I just needed to make a mental and physical shift for my health.
- [14:33]
B
So with Sinker, how much money were you making? How much were you making when through your online business, before you made the, made the move from your bank, did you make anything? Did you have any income coming in?
- [14:44]
A
Freelance graphic design. I hadn't done POD yet, so I was doing that. I was probably doing about 50k a year, which isn't enough to sustain mortgage. Even 12 years ago or 13 years ago. Not enough to sustain a mortgage. And you know, no, totally everything else you need. Right. It's just not. But I, it was, well, basically just enough like to the penny, but I was going in the hole, like you know, 200 every month and like debt was accruing. But if I had stayed at the bank job, which I was getting paid close to double with bonuses and stuff at the time, it, I wouldn't, I probably wouldn't be here today. And not that I, I mean, I wouldn't be alive, but I, I got to a point with that stressful, toxic corporate workplace culture that I was trying to actually hurt myself on in a way that I just wouldn't have to go to work that day. And I'm like, maybe I could shut my hand in the car door just to break my finger. And then I, you know, I have a cast and I can't click the mouse. Like, wait a minute, I'm. I'm going to put myself through six weeks of injury just so I don't have to go to like, you Know what I'm. What are you thinking? Right. And then, you know, you start talking to somebody else, a counterpart at work who's also a team leader, manager, lower, you know, entry level management. And he says, jay, have you ever thought about hurting yourself just enough to get out of work or like what you can do to get out of work? And I'm like, oh my God, like, I am not alone in this. Like, that is not only is it a, like just mind blowing to look back and think that I had those thoughts, but also to realize that other people were having the same thoughts at the same time. Like, yeah, it makes you wonder, right?
- [16:12]
B
My mind does weird things. Yeah, I agree. So you went from such to kind of summarize. The story that you have is you have a bank job, you're making about 100k plus per year, successful job. Right. For most standards with bonuses.
- [16:24]
A
I was, I was hitting that 6k back then. Yeah. So good by all standards, for sure.
- [16:27]
B
Yeah. Great, great. Yeah. And so you, you make this, but you're kind of unhappy deep down. So then you start freelancing on the side. You make about 50k a year on average, and still not enough to really live that life, that kind of to fully be net positive. But you made that move, it sounds like did freelancing for a while. And then you eventually jumped into this other forms of online digital entrepreneurship, which is pod, selling products online, all this other stuff. And then since then, it's now it's like you've transitioned to teaching people also. So you still keep doing this stuff, but now it's like people have been knocking on your door, banging on your door, saying, hey, teach me, teach me, teach me how to design. Teach me how to create online income. And so naturally you just kind of got pulled in that direction. And now all of a sudden you're doing those things and you've kind of transformed your life in a matter of 10 years, it sounds like. Is that kind of what happened?
- [17:18]
A
Yeah, 12 now. My stuff was first being sold in 2012 on Etsy, but I didn't have my own shop until 2013. So one of the freelance graphics elements ended up being a guy. I hammered out and it turns out there's a limit of 200, but I hammered out classified ads on Craigslist and Kijiji. It's a Canadian kind of version of Craigslist. But yeah, there was a limit on those. And one of the guys that hired me for one of the freelance gigs was T shirt designer because I had been designing T shirts and airbrushing T shirts as a kid in high school and whatnot. He hired me to design for him and he was plotting stuff like vinyl. So he was doing heat transfer vinyl. My designs were next level compared to what he was able to do so that he was able to just focus on the production element while I handled the design. He was paying me 15 bucks. Canadians about 10 or so 11 US per design. And then I was like, well, this guy's selling those designs over and over. I'm watching his numbers in his store go up. Right. So I changed that agreement to three bucks royalty per T shirt and $5 a hoodie. And then that was kind of, you know, the first kind of introduction for me just by osmosis. I had no idea what passive income was, but that was the first kind of thing where I could create something once and have it generate perpetual income. Right. So not that it was fully passive because there's work in the front end, but like when that stuff is selling over here for the next year and I'm still, I'm working over here, then that's, you know, passive income coming in. Mind blowing. Yeah. Yeah. And then it wasn't long after that where I just decided like, what am I doing? Like I can create my own Etsy shop. And then he would fulfill for me and just bill me what he bills me. And then that was they'll organically fell into Print on demand. So he's literally making my shirts on demand, printing, packaging and shipping. And I'm continuing to design in very much in the same way I operate 12 years later. Right. In terms of like a business model. So yeah. Kind of nuts. Right?
- [19:24]
B
It is now.
- [19:24]
A
Before. Yeah. Before Direct to garment was like this household name and Print on Demand was even a household name. Right.
- [19:32]
B
It's insane. Yeah. And the evolution of Print on demand is it's kind of taking digital entrepreneurship to the next level. I would say it kind of creates. All of a sudden we have these creators that they're not limited by the materials that, that they have around them. They're not limited by the suppliers that they have, you know, in their local town or even going to Alibaba and going to China and all this stuff anymore. It's like, no, we can, I don't need to have $5,000 to launch a shop like you did on Amazon FBA when I was first starting or probably still do actually for a lot of Amazon inventory holding type of businesses. Do. Does most of your, I guess, product income come from either Etsy or Amazon? Like do you have one of the other, like you just feel like you crush on?
- [20:13]
A
Yeah. Amazon has been probably the one that I feel like I cr. I don't know, it's kind of. It's kind of a weird take on it maybe, but I feel like I crush it on Amazon because it's mostly passive. I do a little bit of work. You know, if I. If sales start to dip, they very much like Etsy. Like, you know, respect or reciprocate with being active in your. In your account. Right. So if you're working on it, that doesn't mean just throwing up a bunch of crap, but it just means, like, if you're actively like building on things. So when I upload some stuff in Amazon, I'll see a spike that'll last two or three weeks because it's. I focus on typically evergreen. So it's not stuff that'll peak and then drop. I won't have a significant, you know, peak, but I might not have a significant valley. Uh, so it'll peak a little bit and then slowly phase and then I can just lather, rinse, repeat. Where Etsy has been validating it in that I'm. I'm crushing it, so to speak, in a way that I can throw up a design in the niches I'm in. And I know that it'll sell. And if it takes longer than three days, it's like I have to revisit it. I didn't get any likes or favorites in three days. Right. But typically I can get something, you know, because it's well researched and I know the market I'm targeting. I can get a design validated on Etsy. And typically, you know, under three days, right, like two, three days, make a sale.
- [21:32]
B
A lot of people listening to that, they're just like, how the hell does Jay do that? Right. And I know that you use Ever be and people listening to this, most of them use Ever BE too. They haven't really connected all the dots on how to actually validate those products before they go live with the products. And then what does validation even mean? Can you, can you share anything to help them with their, like the Ever be journey and like doing the research ahead of time?
- [21:54]
A
Yeah. So this is one thing that I can't stand when people preach, you know, look for low competition and yes, the high demand element is there. If you can get validate a niche with high demand based on, you know, your Ever BE research or whatever you want to do. Like, I love that you guys have, you know, the Chrome extension because I'm not one to pull up the platforms and do deep dives into all these, all these metrics because at the end of the day, if you don't know how to apply the metrics, and I think people spend too much time in that stuff as newbie sellers. What the tools that you're providing basically consolidate everything really quickly. And the Chrome extensions are, you know, allow you to do that without skipping a beat or switching to a next page. So you're right in, in Etsy when you're doing it. But people, I think, you know, and it's a result of people with fast win success over Covid. Right? Like my first 6k year was in 2015 with print on Demand, not some lucky Covid thing, because we had a captive audience, which I mean, no, you know, not. Not speaking ill of anybody who had. And I think it's great that we have a community now, an actual community, because at the time there was only like two or three people that were, they even knew what Print on Demand was. But when people start telling newbies to focus on SEO first and this and that, I think it's, it's detrimental because then you're starting to look at, you know, search volume versus low competition. So for me, I think sometimes the competition, the high competition leads people to say things like, oh, it's oversaturated, it's oversaturated, it's oversaturated. Well, all that means to me is that you're afraid of competition, right? Over saturation. When you say that it's oversaturated, all I hear is, I'm afraid of competition. And that is not how you're going to learn and thrive and be able to pivot and make better designs. Because at the end of the day, all the SEO in the world isn't going to make your design sell if your design does not look good and does not hit and resonate with that customer. That's all there is to it. So when you look at, you know, high demand, high demand, high demand, great. Low competition, low competition. Sometimes low competition just means low demand. And you can't, you know, focus on the low competition. And a lot of times the high competition stuff, let's be real, man. It's because of a lot of YouTubers and influencers showing people that are all these, you know, that do the weekly niches and stuff like that, or new ideas. All of that competition is, I would argue, a good 70, 80% of it is basically copies of bestsellers. So it's not Even what I would consider real competition. It's just the amount of results, right? It's just the amount of actual results. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's just what it is, right. It doesn't mean that any of those, yes, there's that many potential listings or results, but that doesn't mean that any of them are selling. Right. It's, you know, you're, you're taking, you know, take that top 5 or 10% of those and then you look at that and look at the ones that actually have sales.
- [24:53]
B
What I'm hearing is like, you, you, you have this mind, mindset of, hey, products first. Like I would describe this as product first. You're saying design first. But I basically, to me on Etsy or Amazon, it's like your design is your product. Yeah. It's like that is the thing that you're selling, like the beautiful, aesthetically pleasing design. And now if that product looks bad or that design looks bad, then you could have the most optimized. You could be in the, you know, demand of, let's say this thing's doing a hundred thousand dollars a month. But like the competition is only like five competitors. But if your design sucks, like, you're not going to get that many sales, your comp. Competitors will always win. And so you're saying is that. I don't think you're taking away that. SEO is not important. It's more so about. It's not as important as a design. You need to have a great design first.
- [25:39]
A
Yeah, I think so. In the beginning, SEO is absolutely crucial. Right. You need to be able to get eyes on your prize. There's no way around it. I just think that people put too much focus on that. So once you have done your niche research and ultimately understand the market you're trying to target and you're looking at the best sellers and the actual, you know, and you can validate this stuff with ever. B2 is like the listings that have actual, not only search volume, but, you know, they're validated, they have actual sales numbers. Those are, you know, where you can start gleaning information from. What do all of these bestsellers have in common? Is there a design aesthetic? Is there, you know, a font preference? Is there a color palette? Is there some kind of seasonal element that maybe you can apply to your idea to make it kind of, you know, feel like it's, it's up to date or on trend? Right. It's not just about the amount of the, the search volume at the end of the day and I think like SEO, you need to get, I guess you need to get eyes on your prize as a new seller in any algorithm, right? So, and the only way to do that is with SEO. But that's why I also implore people to like to run ads on a new shop with listings with zero sales history, so that you can kind of use it as testing ground. You're not there to make money at the time, you're there to gather as much information and accrue as much data as absolutely possible in a 30 day window or in a short amount of time. So you can tell what is actually getting seen and getting clicks based on that's going to be based on largely SEO, right? From there you can take that data and apply it to the design element, right? Because at the end of the day, again, regardless of how much money you're pumping on ad dollars and how much money you're spending on SEO tools and all the refining, you're not going to sell if it doesn't look good. So it's the whole package there.
- [27:24]
B
You have this interesting perspective on design and I feel like it would be unjust for us to not dive in deeper on design. So maybe if we can leave our people listening to this with like, hey, here's the three things you need in your design or the five things or what is the most common mistake people are making in their designs? And this can be applied to Amazon, this can be applied to your Etsy, this can be applied to if you have a website specifically, like if you have a, it's basically your design of your images or maybe design of the product. What do you see as the most common mistake? And then how do we solve that mistake in your, in your, your opinion?
- [28:01]
A
There's a couple of things. So over designing is one thing. So A is like if you suck at design, suck. And bold is something I've always said, right? If you're gonna suck, do it boldly and loudly so that it's obvious. Because if you, if you've got a design that is, call it mediocre, but it's not, you know, it's not readable. Like, not, not the legibility element, which is completely different. Like legibility is how you can read words, the readability of the garment. So if you can digest that listing photo, right, if you're not, if it's, you know, word heavy or text heavy and you're not zoomed in enough on that, on that listing photo, then people are going to a click on it to, to see what it is. That they're looking at because you showed up in the search results for the. Whatever the query is. But B, then they're going to blow it up to see that, oh, well, now I, I don't like it because I don't like the design. And then, you know, it's doubly brutal. If you're paying for ads on those SEO terms, because now you've paid for that click. For them to click on your design, decide they don't like it and tank your conversion, you're literally paying to kill your shop. Right? So I think that is one thing is like over designing or cramming too much and not presenting it properly.
- [29:10]
B
So, so the ruler there is to make sure that you can read. So if it says that like you are my sunshine on the shirt, for for example, make sure that, make sure that they can read that from the search results, not necessarily only from the click. It needs to be in the search results. So that way you're not wasting clicks and then killing your click through rates, which kills the algorithm because they're just gonna be like, well, this thing tells.
- [29:32]
A
Etsy that why would I show this in the search results if nobody wants it, right? It's getting the clicks and then people are deciding against it.
- [29:38]
B
So, yeah, to make it readable from the search results, very important. I agree. I see this a lot, actually. I never really heard anyone put it like you just put it though.
- [29:46]
A
Yeah. Suck and bold, right? So people can know that they don't like it and at least it's not going to tank your conversion rates. Right? Because no one's going to click on it.
- [29:52]
B
Suck and bold like it.
- [29:55]
A
You know, it's. I should put it on a shirt, right?
- [29:58]
B
There you go. Make it readable. Make sure you make it readable though.
- [30:01]
A
Yeah. And then the other thing is like cramming too much or over designing. People think the more you add, the better. But the. The acronym kiss. Keep it simple, stupid. The more elements you introduce into a design, the more aesthetically educated and artistically educated you need to be to make sure that they all jive and they have the balance and the hierarchy and, you know, all the elements that make a good design. You, if you don't have a grasp or a handle on that, you're just going to be creating this. It's not going to look like a beautiful collage. It's going to look like a, you know, a not so beautiful scrapbook really of mismatched elements, clip art versus like some distressed elements. Or then couple it with a Weird chalky font or some script font that is super hard to read. Yeah. So people over designing all the time is a big one too. Less is more in every aspect of the word. And then price. Price to make profits like my profit, my pricing strategy. And I used Everbee's calculator just to verify because I used to say that the goal was to make 35% profit margin while having a 35% off sale. And that would put you at around. When I'm selling my Gildan 64 thousands for like 2750 with a 575 shipping price that would put me around that 32 plus marker and that would put me at like 8 and change. 875 or so if I recall. But when I'm not running that 35% off sale I'm up over 50% margin and that's where you start making real money. But I've since bumped up stuff so I'm at like 575 shipping and then 2950. So I believe with the 35 off sale I'm still making a 40 margin. So I'm like 9 bucks change. Yeah. And then you know a testament to.
- [31:45]
B
That for T shirts. To be clear, this is T shirts. Correct.
- [31:48]
A
On the Gildan 64, 000 soft style. Yeah. Not even an expensive T shirt.
- [31:52]
B
I think I'm hearing people right now, they're just like how would anybody pay 35, $36 for a T shirt? How would you answer that?
- [32:00]
A
Get out of your own head, get out of your own way. It's not about you. Right. It's like just because you wouldn't pay 30 bucks for a T shirt doesn't mean the rest of the world won't. And then the other thing is like you have that 18t shirt sell, know what's going to happen? They're going to be like, well I ordered it on Thursday. I was hoping to get it Friday. It's now Saturday and it isn't here. Can I return it when I get it? You're going to get. The design isn't as bright as I thought it was. Your size charts are accurate. But I saw one review out of your 20,000 reviews that said that I should size up. So I sized up and now I don't like it. You're going to get all the headaches on the planet versus selling to a 30, a 30T shirt. That customer you're not going to hear from at all except for when they leave. Five star review. Nice T shirt. Thanks so much.
- [32:43]
B
You know what I Mean the customer is different. You mean the customer's mind mentality is different when they make that 35 purchase for that shirt?
- [32:49]
A
Absolutely.
- [32:50]
B
You mean you're saying that person is different?
- [32:52]
A
Yeah, the, you're, you know, the higher prices command a higher quality and caliber customer. Absolutely. It's all about the perceived value. Like you look and I'm not talking about a 18 shirt. You want to compete with them, don't charge $2 more because that's going to invite scrutiny. Right. You want to not invite scrutiny. You want to set yourself apart by charging the $12 more. 30 bucks, 2950. They're like, oh, well, clearly ask, ask any 8 or 9 or 10 year old kid, which one do you think is more valuable? And show them and like show them the prices. Like which one do you think is the better product? They're going to pick the biggest, the most expensive one. Right.
- [33:26]
B
It's just, you have $5 wine and then you have a $25 bottle of wine and you're just like, oh, which one? If, if it's for a nice dinner, which one are you going to buy? Right. You're going to slur.
- [33:34]
A
Doesn't mean it's, doesn't mean it's that much better. But the perceived element there is that it's going to be a, you know, a finer quality, a nicer on the palette. Yeah, that's.
- [33:45]
B
I just learned something there too. And I think a lot of people can pull that away is don't. You said something, you said don't charge $2 more than that $18 shirt. Charge like significant $12 more. Yeah. Significance where it's almost like you're not even comparing to. You're actually going after a different customer. There's now why in, in your. Somebody's asking this right now, why though would they pay $12 more for the same design? Or maybe you can answer this with like, maybe it's not the same design. How do you view this? Is it simply just price? Like it can be the same design and you could be 12 more or do you have to add in some other flavor there somehow?
- [34:23]
A
Yeah, I think a lot of it again comes down to how you package it. So make sure that if you understand the niche you're serving, then you know you're going to be able to speak to them in ways outside of just the design. So a, the design has to be great, but like the elements on the mockup. Right. If they're, you know, my wife sells in a big dog breed shirt shop, but she's she's also making like 12, 13 US dollars profit per t shirt on the bell and canvases as predominantly for her. But like, you know, the elements on there, the funny little, the dog toys that might be in the mock up that, you know, you can build these on your own or you can, you know, we just shot a couple on the ground. It doesn't have to be hard, but now, you know, you just do it three or four times. And you've got your own mockups too, right? But like the little elements that speak to the customer in ways that outside of the design, right. So the color, the color schemes, the elements in the background, even what you're putting on the shirt, you know, if you know the niche inside out, you. The, the idea is to get them to wear something that other people, when they look at them say, where'd you get that shirt? Right. That is the goal. That's the impact you want every single time. So I think if you can figure out how to do that and make stuff that when people are wearing, other people see it and say, where'd you get that shirt? Oh my God, I love it. That's where you're going to set yourself apart because you're going to have these brand ambassadors. You're not, I'm not talking paid influencers, but you're gonna have people going to the dog park wearing that stuff saying, like showing it off because they're proud, right?
- [35:52]
B
Yeah, they're proud of it.
- [35:54]
A
You know what I mean? That's something that people will buy for themselves too, right?
- [35:57]
B
You know what I like about this conversation? You know what I like about this is what you said is you're kind of thinking about again, about the customer, like, hey, we're just. You're designing with a goal in mind. What's the goal? The goal is that you have a customer that buys your shirt and they get, they go to the park and someone's asked them, hey, where did you get that shirt? That's the goal. Now you reverse engineer from that goal and say, how do I make a design that somebody would say that versus I think lots of people listening to this right now. And I don't blame them. But a lot of people listening to this right now, they say, how do I make $10 profit from a shirt? It's. They're asking from selfishly, like they're starting from, from the wrong place. They need to start. We need to start from the customer in mind. Work backwards. How do I get, how do I build so much value in a design that I'm willing to charge $35 for the shirt, you know, and start with them in mind. And it creates a different behavior for us.
- [36:50]
A
Yeah. And it sounds so counterintuitive, but the best way and fastest way to sell more is to stop trying to sell stuff. Right. Stop, stop trying to just make things that other people are doing. Stop trying to mimic or emulate all the best sellers in the same way without bringing some kind of, you know, unique value to it. Right. Like here you get these acronyms, UVP tossed around like Unique Value Proposition. What sets yourself away? Maybe it doesn't have to be anything crazy. It could just be text on a shirt. But because you offered customization and you know, you set yourself apart in a way that you're satiating this need for this emotional connection that people have. We all want to feel like we're a part of something. So if you can like, you know, give them that, sell the emotion, sell the, you know, the feeling behind it, that's the kind of thing that I think, you know, your marketing and however you're packaging your stuff can speak to. But just trying to literally sell stuff is not going to get you there. Look at the end customer, you know, like, like we just, like I just said, like who you, you want people to be proud of what they're wearing, not just buying it as a gift for somebody who's going to wear once and toss. Right.
- [37:56]
B
I love it. I have a couple questions. I think people.
- [37:59]
A
Sure. Shoot. Yeah.
- [38:00]
B
So you sell on Etsy, Amazon and then do you also sell any of these brands or any of these, I'm sorry, any of these designs on a specific website of your own as well or just Etsy and Amazon? I, I have a Shopify store or a wix or anything like that.
- [38:14]
A
Yeah. So I have a Shopify that I haven't touched in five years. It's still kind of the odd order trickle in. And then I have same thing like Redbubble and Teepublic that still churn out 100 ish 50. I think TeePublic last week, last month was like 22 or something like that. But so not making a ton of money there. But Christmas comes and they all, they each of them generate like a couple hundred dollars a month. Month. Which I know you know, is, is enough to pay bills for some people. Right. It's still, you know, still money, but the bread and butter has largely been Etsy and Amazon by far.
- [38:44]
B
Beautiful. Okay, My questions will be more for that, for those then. Do you do Etsy ads? Or Amazon ads.
- [38:50]
A
Absolutely. All of it. You need to know. I mean the idea is to put your brand. And that's the other thing. Right. I'd rather be niched over the general store. They both can work, but I think if you can work smarter, not harder. If you just get to know your target market and make them proud of, you know, wearing things and then you'll have.
- [39:09]
B
It's way easier.
- [39:10]
A
Yeah, it's way easier to have a repeat customer than it is to sell a new customer. Right. So make things in the shop that somebody's going to buy three or four of. Right. In the same vein, same, you know, idea like large breed dogs are Great Danes. Well, why would you only have one Great Dane shirt in a large breed dog shop? Right.
- [39:24]
B
Beautiful.
- [39:26]
A
You know. Yeah, but advertise, advertise the crap out of it in the beginning to, you know, glean data from, you know, what, what's going on over a 30 day window at least I would argue maybe, maybe a fifth week in there because. So you definitely cross two paydays. Right. There's a psychology behind that too. A lot of people add to cart. Why aren't they checking out? Well, maybe they're waiting for a payday, maybe they're shopping early and they just don't want to, you know, miss an opportunity. But look at the data over, you know, at least a 30 day Spanish and then, and then hone in, hone in on that but and refine. Look at what's costing you clicks but not making sales. Amazon, I think it's almost a necessity. I used to lists and then not run ads to anything unless I've seen no traction in seven days. But now I just put ads on everything because I know ultimately I know my niche enough and I know what I'm designing with the intention that this customer is already going to want. So again, you know, go back to Tony Robbins saying successfully is clues. Pay attention to what your customers want. They will tell you what they want for a design, make the design, it will sell because you're, you know, you're making something that somebody has already told you they wanted. If not by them even reaching out, but by your sales history. Right. There's all kinds of ways. And then advertise it because you're ultimately making something that already has been validated, it's been proven. Right. So it makes only all of the sense to, you know, spend some ad money because even if you rank organically in, you know, which, which could be great and does happen, but if you start to Trickle, because competition inevitably will. Will come in. The ads will help keep you at the top of that list. Right. Ultimately. So then that's where you want to be. Yeah.
- [41:09]
B
How many listings? Amazon Merch is a little bit different, but I'm curious, how many Amazon Merch listings and then how many Etsy listings do you have?
- [41:17]
A
So Amazon Merch is. It's going to sound like a lot, but 1600 unique designs. And it's. So listings is a different thing because you can list one design and apply it to a bunch of products. So I don't know, it's probably, you know, maybe 100K products, but that's also very small numbers. I typically list with more intention. I do everything with more intention. So I make a T shirt design. That does not mean I'm going to throw it on a tumbler or a throw pillow or all the, you know, a shower curtain or whatever products, depending on the platform. I list for T shirts and sweatshirts, predominantly. And if something can translate to something else, then maybe. But, you know, design with the product in mind too. Not just. That's. That's another design element. Right. Because people design for and then throw it up on as many products as they want. That's not a great customer experience. And your designs, you know, ooh, baby, it's cold outside. Doesn't make sense on a, you know, a tank top or a racerback T shirt. Right. Like it, you know, people just don't think about this stuff. But. So I'm in tier 8000 on Amazon merch. I have 1600 live designs. I'll probably never get out of that tier. And if you know anything about Amazon Merch, in order to tier up, you need to have at least 80% of those slots filled. So what would that be? Whatever, 80% of so 6400 designs? I think something like that. And for me, that'll. I'll probably never get there. I'll never make that many on Amazon or on Etsy. Conversely, my. My very first shop, which was my general store, I've got under 600. I used to have up to 700 or 750 or so. And that slowly kind of trickled down as again, you know, 12 years later, the designs have definitely gotten better and I know more what I'm doing. So even that's taking more of a. Not ultimately like super niched, but it's. I've definitely got more of a target audience there. Right. So we're not talking like a niche. We're talking, you know, a general target trajectory. For who I'm targeting there. But across four of my stores combined, I have less than a thousand listings. So it's not a numbers game. It's not a quantity over quality. Quantity is only good if you can maintain the quality otherwise. And we're not talking about Picasso's here, right? We're not talking about something that you need like a piece of fine art. It just has to hit the nail on the head and resonate with the niche. It doesn't have to be overdone and over designed like I mentioned. But yeah, no, I got three shops with under 250 listings and they sell like they make the equivalent of what you would consider a full time income.
- [43:37]
B
Let's go, man. That's amazing.
- [43:39]
A
Yeah.
- [43:39]
B
You ready for the rapid fire questions?
- [43:42]
A
Yeah, let's do it. Hit me.
- [43:43]
B
What's your favorite business book?
- [43:46]
A
Oh man, probably the four hour Work week and I can't even say I've ever finished it. I just keep getting distracted. I've got a, like a brain like a sieve, but also ADHD bouncing around.
- [44:02]
B
Love that. It's a perfect group for you, by the way. You're living in Belize for God's sakes. Yeah, it makes sense. What's the one thing that you wish that you knew before starting your business?
- [44:11]
A
Imposter syndrome is real and you can't beat it. So don't let it stop you. It's never going to go away. Just, just, you know, get outside your comfort zone and get com. Get comfortable being outside of your comfort zone.
- [44:24]
B
Let's go. What's the worst advice that you've ever received about business? The worst advice.
- [44:29]
A
So much for rapid fire. The worst advice probably that you, you should price low to get initial sales in the door. That's probably one of the worst because if you're again niche and not just general store, with thousands of listings trying to cater to everybody, then you can set yourself apart. Then you definitely don't need to start at bargain basement prices and devalue yourself.
- [44:56]
B
Interesting. So just charge $12. Like make, make your margin from the beginning.
- [45:02]
A
I, I would, I would. Yeah. If you truly understand your niche for sure. If you're charging general store. If you're doing a general store type thing and you're throwing up two or three thousand listings, which you're going to need to do that. Then you're going to have to compete on other elements like price. Right.
- [45:15]
B
Beautiful. How many hours do you think you work in your business per week now?
- [45:22]
A
All together on all businesses. Like more than a full Time job. I love what I do. It's rewarding, fulfilling to be able to help people get to new levels, do my, do my pod shops and, and does my pod game proper suffer as a result? Absolutely. I've been running Etsy challenges, 30 day Etsy challenges since like our first one, I think was 2018 or 2019 and we did them right in September. So like the entire 30 days of September or middle of September into middle of October and then one was all of October. Those are, you know, crucial months if you're trying to get stuff up. But I, you know, we, we always put helping other people ahead of our own sales. So. Yeah, man, I work a lot. I work a lot. I enjoy it, every minute of it. I love people like I'm, you know. Yeah, I love it. I love it though. And the, the idea for me was just to be able to have a different scenery when I go out and leave the house. I want to get to a point eventually though, when I can dial everything back. And for that to happen I realized that have to narrow my income streams so I can just have something on auto and then kind of just get back to maybe doing design. But right now it's been so fulfilling to help so many people with like in the membership group and stuff like that, that. But at least I'm getting kind of compensated for that because I was helping people for free in my Facebook group for seven or eight years. You know what I mean? For free. It's like, well, yeah, I've always felt.
- [46:47]
B
Like money is the byproduct of just the amount of people that you help and the impact that you make.
- [46:51]
A
Right.
- [46:51]
B
So money just comes and that's it.
- [46:53]
A
That's. It goes back to. It's exactly. Money is the byproduct and I truly understand that now. And it's one of the things where it's like that, that's kind of what I said. Like it's you, you'll start making money as soon as you stop trying to sell stuff, as soon as you stop trying to push things and, and have that mo of making the money. You know, as soon as you just try to be, provide a service or, or help people do better, you know, and have kind of like stick to, you know, understand what motivates you. And for me, it's seeing other people win in a, in a time or in a place or in a pivot that they didn't think was even possible. Right. I want people to want more out of life so to be able to open their eyes to that, I think is probably the most gratifying and satisfying and validating thing I think, out there. But, yeah, yeah, so much for rapid fire.
- [47:42]
B
Now it's good if your family and your friends and maybe your customers and people that have worked with you, if they had to get together and write an honest article about Jay, and you could not be involved in this process. Okay. They had to characterize your traits. Good. And also the bad. What are some of the things that they would say?
- [48:03]
A
I think the good. I hope the good is that he's genuine. He's real. You know, we know he wants to help the bad for sure. Sure. Part and parcel with, you know, the way my brain works. He doesn't shut up. He interrupts all the time. I'm always cutting people off in conversation. I just can't. It's like something jumps in. I have to get it out. It's genuine. It's real. I can't change it. I'm trying to be more conscious of it. It might think I'm pompous, but I don't want to come off as that at all. Like, I'm confident in what I do now because there was a time where I would be in a room and. What do. What do you. What do you do for a living? Oh, I. I, you know, I sell novelty T shirts online. No, no, but what do you. What do you really, really do? Like that? Not your side hustle or whatever? Like, no, I. I sell. Well, how do you pay the mortgage? Like, I sell more T shirts. You know what I mean? Like, and now it was, you know, I was always hesitant, but now it's like, oh, yeah, I know. I have a couple Etsy shops. I sell print on demand. It's just matter of fact. Right. So, like, back then, when I was making that transition, I maybe was trying to, you know, get everybody to buy into this idea. But now it's like, I realize you can't change people. So instead of me saying how much sales I'm making all the time, it's not about that anymore. So I think, like, part of the bad would be people maybe seeing me as gloating in a way. I hope not. But I don't know.
- [49:28]
B
I have a strong feeling that's not true. I have a feeling that's why you come across so modest and humble, because you. You're probably afraid of that, but you're actually not that way.
- [49:36]
A
I, again, imposter syndrome is real. So I overcompensate.
- [49:43]
B
Beautiful. Where can people find you, Jay? Where can People work with you. Where can people follow you and understand more about what you do? Get your free content, you're doing all kinds of cool stuff. Where can people get closer to you?
- [49:55]
A
Yeah, so my Facebook group, I'm just gonna. It's Jay's Way, Print on Demand. I'm just going to. Or no, sorry, that's. The Facebook group is called jsway Etsy by Print on Demand. The Facebook group is J's Way. Print on Demand is the actual group. You can type into the search bar.
- [50:17]
B
We'll also link to everything below, by the way.
- [50:19]
A
Sure. Cool. Azway works on YouTube and again, it's called jsway because there's a million and one ways to win. This is just what I've practiced and what's worked for me. So that's why it's called J's Way. It's not the only way or anything like that. And then I do have my Inner circle membership. It's jsway works/forward slash Inner Circle. It's currently closed until the new year. We're, you know, buckling down and we're trying to get everybody, you know, where we need to be through Q4. So sorry about that. But we will be reopening, I think probably February or so, give or take in the new year. But unfortunately we're closed for now just because, you know, it is that time and we're trying to help as many people inside and I don't want to stop being able to over deliver. That's kind of always what I've done and I, I like adding new things and over delivering, so. But otherwise, yeah, you can just hit me up anytime. Jsway.works email address if you want to, you know, ask any advice or anything like that or comment in on YouTube, any of the stuff other than that. I'm around, man, I'm around. I'm an open book and I'm gonna shoot you straight.
- [51:28]
B
I love that. Thank you for that by the way. For anybody listening or watching this, we're going to link to all those links in the description below if it's YouTube or in the show notes if you're listening to the podcast. Jay, brother, thank you, man. Thank you for coming on. I appreciate you sharing your.
- [51:41]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [51:43]
B
Oh man, it's a blast. Grateful for you and I'm excited to have you come back on and kind of get an update and just. We should do this every few months for sure.
- [51:50]
A
I think so too. I like the idea, you know, chatting with some other YouTubers that were in a chat together, too. It's just like, you know, like these roundtable discussions, right? Maybe, like, maybe we could take on some questions or from. From the audience and just hit them rapid fire, that type of stuff, right? No fluff, no B.S. you know, just straight to the point. Shoot. You know, I think that'd be a lot of fun.
- [52:12]
B
I love it, Jay. Thank you, brother. Have a great day today. See you soon.
- [52:16]
A
You too. Thanks so much, Cody. It's been great.