A (3:25)

Yeah. Oh my God. I love it. I have a two year old daughter and I actually, I never thought of it but it's exactly like you mentioned. I love the analogy.

B (3:34)

It is very similar. I have three kids and every business that, yeah, every, every business that I've had is, is. I've looked at it this way and it's actually very help helpful for me to look at it this way because it puts it in perspective that oh, you're still very young, like you're just a baby. So of course you're not gonna like do whatever goals that you have in like in your first six months.

A (3:57)

Oh my God, I love it. I, I love this perspective. Yeah, that's, that's awesome.

B (4:03)

I want to dive into, to your, to your business right away. You have an incredible Etsy shop. You've been on Etsy for about five years I think, right? Tell, tell us like what, how many sales. Tell us the stats first, like the numbers of what you did and then we'll dive into the story after that. Like hit us with the facts.

A (4:21)

Yeah, sure. So I have two Etsy shops. One is the very first shop That I started. And this is genealogy templates that initially started as custom family trees. And this is more like almost like a passive income for me, which generates from 1 to 2000amonth. And the mostly this is just digital downloads.

B (4:59)

So one to. You said 1 to $2,000 a month and you digital download. So it's like 85% profit margins probably.

A (5:06)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So which is amazing. So, you know, like, I've done the template and this just keeps, you know, generating income. I was doing it when I was paying attention. When I was paying paying more attention to this baby, it was making much more up to like 10 grand when I was just focusing on custom custom family trees. But that was like more obviously more time that I was investing. Now this baby is now on its own and it's just like playing there, which I, you know, obviously keep my eye on. But this is not my priority right now because it shifted to my second Etsy shop, which is my calligraphy custom calligraphy shop where I create different custom pieces for clients. I also have some of like digital downloads there, but majority of the pieces are actually like commissions. And so that I hit 20, 20 grand last month. I was, that was, you know, like, it was just a pinch me moment. I was like, there's no way like can. Can, you know, like, has the potential to. To reach those numbers. But yeah, so anywhere from like 5 to 10. Like, but 5 is like bare minimum that I meet every single month. So numbers like that, that's amazing.

B (6:42)

And to. To give me because I actually don't really understand what calligraphy and like what all the aspects of this is. And you also said you have clients and you do custom work. Explain to me like, what is the main offering typically that you would sell and how much are they paying and all that stuff.

A (6:58)

You know, this is fascinating. This kind of tied to like my like calligraphy journey and this shop. It kind of. They all tied in together. And I actually, I'd love to, you know, share the story of how I initially, you know, opened my very first Etsy shop. And so I can kind of answer your question in that story if you'd like me to do it. Okay, awesome. It's actually, you know, it's fascinating to me because I get to like, remember this one more time because, you know, you get to forget things how you started. But initially, like the Etsy journey kind of started kind of by accident. So I am from Europe and my family moved from Europe to the United States, my husband and I. And as an immigrant, I was you know, different language, different culture, Everything's different. So I was made by all this new world, new experience, and I was frankly lost at the time, time, and I didn't know what to do. And so I thought that, what if I pick up a hobby or some passion project that can help me to, you know, like, stop thinking about my place in the world and things like that. And so we just got married at the time, and I thought that, you know, I decided I want to create a family tree for my husband and I. And I was really into this project and I was like, you know what? I want to handwrite the family tree. So I took a calligraphy course specifically for that. For that project. It took me about, like, three weeks to complete. I, like, loved it. The more I, you know, wrote, the more I was into this art. I was like, wow, this is fun. And so when I once I created the family tree, I was like, let me just posted it in a. It's like a next door neighborhood, local group. So I posted the photos. I was like, just, I. I did my family tree. You all, you know, take a look. And so I had a few people reach out. And then one lady was like, do you mind if I post this photo in my Facebook group? And I was like, whatever. Yeah, sure. And so the next day I wake up to like, 15 messages of people to be like, oh, can you, like, can you, can you do my family tree? And I was like, what? But the answer was no, because, like, it took me three weeks, so even more to create the, you know, the piece. And it was like, you know, long, long project. I was like, but hold on, there are some interest in the, like, family tree. All of a sudden, you know, I was like, I didn't know that. And I, I don't remember how I landed on Etsy, like, how I found out about Etsy, but I decided to open an Etsy shop and I had to, you know, figure out a way to optimize it so I can offer to clients. So I decided to digitalize my, like, initial design. Had to, like, learn Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop to create mockups and things like that. So I ended up opening this Etsy shop and offering those custom, custom family trees and. And that kind of evolved. And I even did, like, a few family trees for celebrities, which was like, wow. And then, and then we moved to Canada and I thought, but like, hold on, like, I still have this calligraphy skill that I, you know, I did for this family tree. What if I open a second Etsy shop? And I'll just do a few place cards once in a while. Was like, where else can I use my calligraphy skills, right? So I was kind of where you are. I was like, like, what can I do with that? Right? So I listed a few of my practice samples, place cards. It's like, that's it. And then I had some people reaching out and there's this guy who's, can you do our wedding voice? Can you just like handwrite our wedding voice in calligraphy? I was like, yes. And he was like, can you actually add an illustration at the very top for like the carriage and a horse from our wedding? And I was like, sure. And then I was basically saying yes to all of this request. And, and this is how I basically, you know, discovered that calligraphy can be used in just so many different things, starting with like wedding invitations, wedding rows. First wedding anniversary is paper anniversary, which kind of fits in, you know, beautifully. And you know, custom poems, certificates, handwritten letters are just a bestseller in my shop now. You know, I guess people are maybe tired of like digital communication and they now appreciate handwritten letters. So answering your question finally. So answering your question is that was definitely a period of discovery, but that was only because I was saying yes to all the inquiries that people were sending. And that's, that's how I find out my niche. Honestly.

B (12:22)

Amazing. Congratulations. Like, it is the total entrepreneurial, like storybook story that you basically just wrote. Right? And yeah, thank you for sharing that. Congratulations. None of that is easy. I know that we just kind of like gave a snippet of just all the success that, you know, one thing led to another and it was very, very clear and logical and everything. But I also know that during that story there are times of discomfort. Majority of times of discomfort, majority of times of probably hesitation, probably of like, is this worth my time? Should I take this other job? Oh, I also have to balance my full time job as well. Like there are all these like real life things too that, that you didn't even mention in your story. But I know it's very, very true. And a lot of other people can probably that they can relate to, to those, to those negative feelings as well. Is there a time where you just maybe thought about giving up on this thing or maybe, maybe you even thought about like not even starting it? Because I know that you kind of like one thing led to another. But what about those times that it just didn't really seem clear to you? Didn't seem obvious?

A (13:31)

Yeah, for sure. So that was, I remember that Feeling when I. When I had this genealogy family tree shop up and running, and I was doing, like, pretty good. Like I was saying before, like, on, like, around Christmas time, that was up to, like, eight and ten grand per month. And, you know, I was doing, like, really good. But then remember how my sales almost dropped and I was like, what is going on? And then I realized that there were more shops who are offering similar designs. You know, some people are, you know, copying your design and lowering the prices. I remember I was, like, so frustrated that somebody were, like, selling the design for like, $1, you know, or like, like just ridiculously low price. And you're like, how am I supposed to come? Like, I don't even want to compete. You know, it doesn't. You know, it doesn't make sense. So I remember that feeling. And so I. I guess I think it was like around that time when I pivoted to calligraphy, or maybe I just started to pay more attention to this second shop. And I think, you know, it works this way. Like, the more attention we pay to, you know, something, the more this, you know, thing grows. Right.

B (15:03)

So where attention goes, energy flows.

A (15:08)

Exactly. Yeah. I love this phrase. Yeah. So I was definitely very frustrated at people, you know, copying or stealing the designs. So with custom calligraphy and, like, where I position myself now, again, like, that was just purely the discovery and saying yes to clients request. But, like, because I now focus more on our custom commissions, I can, you know, I can price any of my projects honestly the way I want, because, like, there is almost like no one else. I have number one shop who specialize on that thing, and almost like, nobody can do the same, which is. I love this spot, to be honest. Like, I love this place where, you know, the competition for me is, like, I don't really care about it.

B (16:04)

Yeah, I get that. And it's. It's a powerful place to be in what. What it sounds like to me is, which is very common and very similar. Very similar thing to me. And mostly everybody listening to this is like, you first have to just get into the game, which is. I think your. Your first business was like, get. Got you into the game. Fairly easy to replicate, sounds like. But it got you in the game. It got you hooked kind of on this, like, potential of this online business thing. And then what happened was, you know, sure enough, the moat, they call it a moat, a business moat. It's like a moat around a castle. And there was no moat. Right. There's not really much of a moat in certain. Certain industries, but that's okay. Like, it doesn't mean you shouldn't have done it. It just means that, like, you need to make sure you have an eye of, like, okay, I got it. I need to pivot slightly, strategize, and kind of go find my next thing where I can actually build a moat. And. And that's exactly what you did. And it's probably what you'll have to keep on. This is what you will have to keep on doing as business owners. This is, like, the game. This is the game. Everybody did the exact same thing. We came into thing. We didn't have much of a moat, so we kind of have to, like, make our product even better, make our product better, make our data even more accurate. We have to, like, build these things. We have to build, like, other things, and we have to have. We're basically trying to make it to where we're the clear, differentiated winner. And that's exactly what you've done with calligraphy, it sounds like, because. And that's why it feels so good for you to be, like, talking about your shop on a podcast, because, you know that, like, the moat is pretty strong. Like, not, not someone can just whip up a calligraphy shop in a second. They could in probably six months. But, like, the majority of copycats won't do that because they're, that's, they're lazy. Like, they want things that they can copy tomorrow. And so what a beautiful position to be in. That's. That's amazing. Congratulations.

A (17:52)

Yeah, thank you, Cody. I really appreciate your saying that. And I loved how you mentioned this word game, like, in this context. And I, it's, to me, like, I, I, I also relate to, you know, our journey in life is, Is sort of like a game. And like, business, you know, could be treated as a game. And I, like, in my experience at least I've noticed how, you know, how, like, I distinctly, distinctly can. Can see those transitions almost like, levels in the game, because at some point when I was, you know, I was just looking for a job at a company, and I was like, I cannot do, like, a business by myself. Like, I would need to have somebody to help me. Like, I can only do it with somebody because I'm like, I'm not enough myself, but things like that. And then I started it by myself and created it, and I was like, hold on. I can actually do it by myself. Okay. Like, I like this. You know, what is, what is the next one? The next level in that game, in my game was that, well, I had to have A full time job and my Etsy shop and you know, my Etsy shop is just, you know, I just do it in the evenings and the weekends. But then at some point I had this shift that. Hold on, I mean I not need to have a full time job. Like what if my Etsy shop can became a full time job and I was like, you know, like a switch, like okay, this is maybe the next level. And this year, like beginning of this year I, I quit my full time job. I, I worked as UI UX designer. But I just realized that I have so much more potential and I frankly have a, like I love the feeling that I do not know the numbers of the next month and every like first day of the month, like I have zero, you know, like zero in, in my stats because the new month started and I'm like okay, let's see how far can we go this month. And so I, I love this feeling and, and I love how you can transition like mentally from one level of your game and you're just, you know, shifting something in your mind and you're already on the next level and you're just climbing, climbing and, and go on and on.

B (20:16)

I love that. Congratulations on quitting your job. That's such a massive, massive unlock and such a massive decision probably that you and your husband and because you have a baby too. Right. So I mean there's a lot, a lot of things to consider here when you're first, when you're going out on your own.

A (20:33)

Yeah. And frankly so I, I, you know, sharing at the beginning of our conversation how Etsy has changed my life and I love this platform with my whole heart. Very grateful. And I just you know, find that especially when I you know, I had a baby and I was on maternity leave for one year from my full time job. I never, ever stopped working in my business. Like, but I just had, I was just allowing myself longer fulfilling time. But I never you know like put it on vacation mode and like that flexibility is just like it was, it was just amazing and I really appreciate it and frankly for, you know like I'm really happy that I took some time before I had a baby to create this space for myself. Like to like create this Etsy shops, figure everything out. So once I, you know, I had the baby I, I was able to like use it as a, as a cushion. Like I didn't have that time when I was kind of, you know, not working and just then I need to get back to that, you know, like track. So I was never Falling out of it. And I was able to combine it beautifully. I mean, I try my best to combine it. Obviously you can. I can like, do everything perfectly. But yeah, I, the, the, the fact that I was able to quit, like, I knew exactly that, you know, I was financially safe and, and, you know, stable.

B (22:21)

So what's the next. You seem like a thoughtful person when it comes to, like you said, the game, the gamification of things, which I, I think very similarly for me. I think a lot of other founders listening to this or creators think of it this way too, is like, we think in, in these steps, people listen to this show at least. What is the next level you'd say for. For you? Like, what's the next level of the game?

A (22:44)

Oh, my God, I love that you. You ask that. Yeah. And so remember how I mentioned that I had this limited thought that I cannot do things by myself and how I need other people's other people. So once I was like, no, hold on, I can actually do it by myself. My next limited thought was that I now do everything by myself. Like, I don't need anybody. Like, I can do photography, I can do, you know, listings. I do this custom pieces. Like, I do social media. I create reels. Like, I do everything by myself. Okay. And now I'm like, hold on, we cannot do it anymore. Like, we have so much orders, we have so much demand. Like, I started to be more, more posting more in my Instagram. I had a few videos that went viral. Like, people are now sending messages in Instagram. And I'm like. And I'm like, drowning. And I remember the feeling how I had, like 15 orders, like, open orders that each would take, like, you know, like two to three hours to create. And. And I'm like, wow, you know, I. Maybe the next thing for me is starting learning how to actually delegate and work with other people. And don't be, you know, me, myself and I. But just actually learn how to work with other people. Because I feel that, you know, once you know how to do everything in your business, you're like, it's actually impossible to have somebody to help me out. Right? Like, there is nobody who can do better than I. And I feel that this is my limited beliefs that there are other talented people who can maybe do something better than I. And that was a big realization for me. That, wow, you know, I like that new level. So my, my focus right now is to work with other people, is to invite people to work on some of the projects that I don't have time so, for example, this family trees that I was mentioning, right? I still had requests for custom family trees where I, you know, create for clients. And they're like, okay, I have, like, 200 people in my, my genealogies, like, 17 generations. Like, can you create a family tree? And I'm like, unfortunately, I cannot. Like, this is the digital downloads that I offer. But I now work artist who, you know, takes that. Who, who is willing to take this job. And, And I'm like, oh, wow. Like, I can still, you know, accommodate those requests, but I can just. I just need more people. And so this is, for me now a big. I'm just learning how to, you know, work with other people and how to communicate clearly what I want and how I want. But I feel that this would, you know, help me to. Which is the next level in this game.

B (26:00)

I love that. What is the ideal outcome for you? Not that it has to be like, the finish line completely, because there's no such thing, but is it financial? Like, for a common answer would be like, it's financial freedom. And then, like, they redefine financial freedom. Or maybe it's like, freedom of, like, my time and, and location freedom. Like, what is it for you? What's, what's the, what's the main goal? You're just like, that's what I'm trying to really get to.

A (26:23)

Yeah. I love this question. And I, I, I, I. You know, it's just to me that those questions, they say, seems so, like, complicated to think. Like, you really need to, like, think, you know, hold on, like, what I'm trying to achieve here, and you just want to be busy with, like, busy work and, like, not think of something so complex. But, like, it is just so important to have this in mind, right? It's like, for me, in terms of, like, a lifetime goal, I'll go very broad. Is that, like, I really admire how people create brands or something that is. That lives beyond, like, past them, like, beyond their lifetime. Like, you know, brands like Coca Cola or something. Like, iconic, like, iconic designs. And, like, in my lifetime, I want to create something that will outlive me. So this is my, you know, my, like, big, like, legacy. Like, big goal. This is what I want to think.

B (27:22)

This, this is the vehicle. Do you think calligraphy could be the vehicle for you?

A (27:26)

It. It will definitely help. You know, like, how Steve Jobs, he was taking calligraphy classes, and that helped him to, you know, come up with this design, like, iconic designs and packagings and in packaging and overall, you know, very minimalistics. And I think it definitely contributes, but I'm sure it will evolve. Like, I don't have a, like, immediate, like, vision of what it might be. I just know that this is the goal that, you know, gives me the most amount of, like, chills, and I'm like, this is just so exciting because your life has so much more meaning if you think beyond your lifespan. Right. But, like, more in a long term. I want to be focusing on, like, interesting projects. And to me, it's just an excitement because I do not know tomorrow what will client will reach out to. And. And, you know, just. There's just so many interesting ideas that people come up in their head. And I'm just, you know, I'm able to help them create this vision. And so it's not even my ideas, but I'm just kind of part of them.

B (28:36)

So you're gonna. You're gonna continue to scale. You're gonna. You want to grow the calligraphy type of business, though, and you really an ideal in the next five years, next three years, or like. Or is that not really you're gonna move on to another project? You feel like?

A (28:48)

I'm actually, like, right now that I love this question. I. I think I'm in. In the moment of, like, deciding what I want to do next because, you know, if I want to work more with other people, I. I had to, you know, maybe, like, step up a bit from, like, custom commissions that I do. Even though, like, I want to still, like, practice calligraphy, that's, to me, like, I love doing it, but I. I'd love, like, I want to feel that. I want to know that, you know, I still have something to offer and that my, like, potential is still yet to be, like, unfold and, like, what can be around the corner on the next, like, turn. I'm very excited to see. So I'll. I'll, you know, I'll definitely continue, like.

B (29:33)

Sure, let's talk about that, if you don't mind. Like, let's talk about it as if no one's listening to this, because that's. I love this having. I love having these conversations because I've been in your shoes in this stage, I mean, in my businesses in the past too. And there's things that I've learned that I did right, and there's also things I did wrong. And I'm curious to, like, kind of turn this into, like, almost like a business. Thinking about your future and thinking about the business. If you. If you want to do that, we.

A (29:59)

Can kind of, like, bounce ideas yes.

B (30:02)

So I think the way that I would be thinking about your business right now is, first of all, you have a winner. Because the whole point of starting a business to begin with is, like, you're experimenting with a bunch of different things. Experimenting, experimenting. Kind of have success, a little bit of success, bit of success, Failure, failure, failure. And eventually you find one. That's the goal. You find one winner, and then you have the winner. Then. Then our job is to ride the winner. You ride it. And what most people do, they make mistake of is they find the winner and then. But they've built a habit of moving on to the next, Looking, looking, looking, looking, looking for the next winner when they have the winner already in front of them and they're riding on the horse, and the horse is amazing. It's amazing horse. It's strong, it's powerful, has a lot of endurance, but they jump off the horse on purpose, and they go to try to find another good horse. And they do this constantly because they. They. They. They actually don't realize the horse that they're on is actually a winner. And so I. I find this happens a lot. It's not a terrible problem if you enjoy being. Jumping on new horses. But you. I've. I've regretted. I've regretted jumping off the horses before. And I look back on it, I'm like, huh? I could have rid. I could have rode that one out. I could have made sure that that thing was gonna, like, keep on going for a lot longer than what it did, so it can get me to the next. Next bigger level. And this is how people kind of get stuck in, like, level one through three is they keep on playing in one through three, but if they just rode that big winner to level four and level five, and then they can get off the horse and they can go for the level 10. I. I hope I didn't get too, like, theory and big idea thinking, but what are your thoughts on that? Like, do you identify with any of that?

A (31:50)

Oh, my God. You just. You spotted it. That's exactly it. I love how. I love your analogy with horses and this. It's almost like a habit. And I definitely see this in, like, myself of how, you know, I'm passionate about creating new products, like, new listings. Like, if I see something that I like, I'm like, okay, what if I can do a better version? What if I can do this and that? And I love, Like, I have this habit of creating new products now. I don't have time to create. And they, okay. And I need to mention that all those orders that are, like, custom. That are custom made, like, I specifically, for some reasons I'm passionate about. About that, but that what happens is exactly what you mentioned. And. And I'm like, why. Why can't you just stop and just, like, focus on this one thing? Why do you need to always think of the next? So, for example, I'll. I'll give you an example. So I mentioned how I started to pay more attention to. To my Instagram and how few of my reels went viral. So I had, like, I. I made two, like, similar reels. Then one had, like, 3.5 million views, another had, like, over 1 million views, and then I had, like, almost 10 million views on another reel. And I'm like, what? Like, what if I just stop doing what I do now and, like, focus on something that gets so much, like, attention? Isn't it telling? Try. Tries to tell me something. And I guess, like, the more you do, the more you're kind of pulled up in different directions and it's. And like, at least for me, it's really hard to focus on something like one. Because when I focus on this one horse, even though I'm like, okay, the horse isn't bad. It's. It's doing well. Like, you know, but I kind of feel that, am I stagnating on this horse? Like, do. Do I, like, bet all the eggs in one basket, this horse? You know what I mean? Like, those are the. The thoughts that, you know, start tripping in. And I'm like, yeah, I'm with you.

B (34:03)

Okay, so. So the horse, to me. And in your sense. And again, I don't know much about your business, like, other than, like, this 30 minutes. So take. You could throw. Take all my thoughts and throw it out the window. That's okay, too. But for me, the horse is your business. You have $20,000 in revenue. You just hit as long as, like, a couple things are true. Is. Hey, your market is gonna. Is. Is big enough. It's like, it's not. It's not shrinking, right? It's not like newspapers where, like, less and less people are buying them. Like, are people staying or is it growing market? If that's true. Cool. Do you have, like, a defendable moat? Do you have some sort of, like, hey, it's really hard to do what I do. If that's true, then. Then. And. And you also have penetration. You have $20,000 in revenue. Like, oh, I have something here. It would be kind of silly for you to jump off right now. It'd be silly to like change directions and start from zero again. Because founders and creators, we, we have this like innate ability to create and create and create and create. But, and that's amazing. But it's also, it's, it's a double edged sword. It can cut us and it can hurt us because we think that we just like everything we create is like awesome. But the reality is we think it's awesome, but the market doesn't always appreciate it with money. And so if the goal is to grow a business, like a business is kind of like just rock solid. It's growing, it's, it can, it prints money and also you're delivering something valuable, then you, you kind of want to like keep riding that thing that you're doing and just polishing everything around it. And so first of all, recognizing it and being aware that you love to create and this is a great thing, but also can work against you. I would take that talent, take this, this talent that you have, which is this, you're an artist. Then I would apply it to the business itself. So instead of getting obsessed with the products, you're actually obsessed with like, this is now my art. This business is now my art. As soon as you put that, that perspective on like, hey, how do I create this beautiful business, beautiful, creative, amazing organism that just like runs without me. If you can take your creative energy and put it into the business and as if that was your piece of art, then I think that your creativity will just solve this. I. Yeah. So that, those are my thoughts at this moment at least.

A (36:29)

I love it. Yeah, no, totally makes sense. And it kind of, you know, again goes into this like changing your perspective on things. Right. And, and there are, you know, many ways, many ways to be creative. Right. And it could be, you know, creative within the business or within like creating different businesses. It's just all different kinds of creativity.

B (36:58)

Yeah. Almost always. Is starting another business not the right idea? Almost always. It's, it's usually the wrong idea if you're looking to, if you're trying to optimize for growth and revenue growth, usually the thing right under us, right under our nose is the thing that we can double down on in a ways, but we just don't see it. So there's things that, the way I would look at your business is, all right, what's my, what have I just hit? Okay, I hit 20,000 revenue. Hey. Okay, cool. What's my goal? Okay, well, I'd like to do a hundred thousand dollars in revenue in months. Okay. Is this possible? Very likely it's possible. If you could do 20,000, very likely you're not capturing 100 of the market, very likely you could do 100,000 in revenue. It's just. That's just reality. The Internet's huge. Okay, cool. Now, what needs to be true? The question I would ask myself, what needs to be true for that to be true? So for a hundred thousand dollars in revenue, what needs to be true? Okay, well, that means that I need to be getting this many visitors, I need to be able to have these many conversations, and I also need to be delivering this many. Like, I need to have, like, this many employees delivering this much work that just needs those. Those factors need to be true. And then that's just a problem that needs to be solved. It's not that big of a deal. Just like, oh, that's just a problem that needs to be solved. And so there's that. I would just get really clear on that. And then the. The last thing I'll say is, okay, now, if anything were to take my business down, what would it be? I always think of it this way, too. You don't want to be afraid of these things, but you want to be, like, aware of these things. Like, if my business were to shut off tomorrow, what would have to be true? Oh, well, maybe no one. Everyone hates calligraphy. All of a sudden, it's banned across the entire world. Like, okay, could happen. Probably never gonna happen is my. My arms would stop working or something, right? So it's like, okay, well, you have. You. Then you start to. Okay, Etsy. Etsy shuts my shop down. Very real thing. I personally would be thinking about this. Okay, Those are things I need to solve for, to make sure that they never happen. And if they do happen, then I need to make sure that we have counteractive. Like, we have measures in place and. Or what if, like, I don't go viral anymore on TikTok? Okay, cool. Well, perfect. That's why I built an email list. That's why I built a massive email list that I own to. To make sure that, like, cool, I'm in business no matter what. Even if the algorithms, all of them going away, I still own my business. So, like, these are the things that I would be thinking about when you're trying to play the next level. These are. These are things I'm thinking about. Questions, thoughts. What are your thoughts?

A (39:47)

Yeah, no, I love it. It's. It's more like, you know, strategic and, you know, gives you, like, more awareness of what's Going on. I love it. I, you know, not that I'm planning to, you know, shut down and, like, walk away from what I'm doing now. I'm just, I guess, like, I'm not. I'm kind of looking for more ways to scale it maybe with, you know, like, my time. Because, like, I, you know, specialized on custom commissions, which are, you know, created for one specific person. But, you know, there are always ways to, you know, continue in, like, continue doing it while introducing something more like, you know, online courses. Because, like, if I know that calligraphy is such a, like, trend and vibe now, I, you know, I started to do, you know, calligraphy workshops. I started to do workshops, calligraphy workshops for businesses. I, like, I want to Google a few weeks ago to, like, do workshop there. I'm like, wow. Like, I didn't know this was, like, a possibility for me, right? And I can, you know, instead of creating those custom commissions, I can, like, teach people so they can, you know, take a share of this market. So I'm kind of thinking in that. In that direction, especially, like, or another path is that, like, I consider myself a really specialist at Etsy optimization. Like, I know how. How to optimize my listing through, like, perfection. And I'm like, okay, like, a lot of people would want to do this because before I. Before I focused on, like, optimizations of every, like, listing that I have, I. I was just like, you know, having the same titles and just hoping for something, and I know what. But once I was focusing on turning every custom request into the title and adding a photo of every single listing, and I'm relisting every of the items. You know, I took, like, dramatic. Like, the sales skyrocketed. The. The amount of visitors skyrocketed. I'm like, okay, like, you know, maybe other people also do not know what I didn't know before. So, sure. Things like that. I think, like, my. I'm. I'm sure that the next thing for me is just keep doing what I'm doing. Like, I'm definitely sticking to my horse. I love my horse, but I'm just gonna be, like, introducing maybe something new as a pet project, you know, like, as a passion project, you know, because all my businesses started with a passion project. And in fact, I recommend for people who. They're like, I don't know what to do. There's so many things in the Internet, like, people are successful in so many different fields. Yeah, that's fine. But you just try to find a passion project. Just something I like. You Know, you know, I was able to build a business out of, like, a family tree.

B (42:41)

Like, yeah, absolutely true.

A (42:43)

Just find a passion project and just be passionate. Like, share it with the world. That's another key thing. Like, you need to share it with the world because you never know, somebody will be interested in that. And this would work for me more than one time. And I, I, I, I feel that once you pursue your passion project, this is where you'll start seeing the stars aligned. And there are so many avenues that will be available, so many levels in this game that you'll be, like, blown away.

B (43:12)

I agree with this. Yeah. And typically, things like lead to the, the next thing. Right. Which is, which, which is always true, especially for your case. Whereas, like, calligraphy is leading to family. Family trees led to calligraphy. Calligraphy is leading to potentially teaching others how to do calligraphy or to sell on Etsy or to do other things. And it's such a beautiful sequence. I've seen it play out many times in different ways because it's very natural. It's a very natural sequence. And typically it's, it's awesome to teach people what you know and to help them actually build a business. Also, it's really fun to do.

A (43:45)

But you know what, Cody, when you mentioned, like, it took me two years to build up the courage to do my first calligraphy workshop because I was in this imposter syndrome, I was like, oh, no. Like, I'm not good enough. Like, English is not my first language. There's no, no, no. Like, I cannot, like, teach calligraphy. Like, that's impossible. And then took me two years until I was like, actually, I was like, no, we're doing it. And then once I did a few of those workshops, I was like, maybe I can do, like, podcast, you know, and it's just like, one thing really, like you mentioned, it leads to another, and it gives you confidence and, like, this experience to rely on. And, you know, I'm just wrapping up my very first podcast as a guest. Like, I'm, I'm super thrilled, and I'm like, okay, maybe another door will open up, you know, so it will.

B (44:34)

That's how it works. It always does. Yeah. One thing that we talk about today will lead you to another. Other potentials in the future. Absolutely. Or maybe someone will reach out to you. Or I'm sure, I'm sure they will reach out to you as it's just being inspired by your story, and that's just how it works. This is the beautiful thing about what we do.

A (44:52)

It's beautiful. And this is the game of life and I, I enjoy it. I think it's the most inspiring and amazing thing.

B (45:01)

When did you hear about, just curious. When did you hear about our podcast? And then at what point did like. And did you also also always know about every. Ever be when you first started or like when did you kind of discover ever be?

A (45:11)

I think I was at some point in my like Etsy journey where I was discovering different tools that are able to help with this, you know, long tail keywords and like different, different, different tools that exist. And remember I was like really going down into trying everything and just see what works best because I feel that those tools, they do make a difference because you're not just, you know, by yourself trying to come up with the idea. No, you're just using what other people know. And this exact again ties up to not only be focusing that, you know, on what you can produce, but just like using other people's talent and skills and just working on your goal. So yeah, that's, I feel that those tools that definitely game changing.

B (46:05)

Yeah, no, no question. That's, that's the cool thing about it. It's like they're tools, right? When at the end of the day, like you're the creator, that's the heart of the business and you're gonna have different tools for different situations, right? You're gonna have a hammer, you're gonna have a screwdriver, you're gonna have a drill. Like all these things depending on what you're trying to achieve. If you're trying to optimize your listings, you could use data mix with like your own intuition. If you're trying to find a products to sell online, you're going to want to use a tool like product research tool to find the, if you need the inspiration, you can look at data and like understand, okay, these templates are selling $20,000 a month. Like, okay, maybe I can do that because I also understand ADHD because my kid has HD adhd. So I can make an ADHD template also. And like you can, you can really kind of use these things as inspiration tools to get started, but also like grow. I think it's really important.

A (46:51)

For sure, for sure. And it's also like, like we were talking multiple times about the perspection shift and you know, you can treat your, let's say Etsy like I have sell an Etsy. You can treat it as an, like a hobby, right? Like I, I just, I just have a hobby. My small Etsy shop. I no Longer say that I have a small, small, like, Etsy shop. Because, because, like now I decided to treat it as a business, you know, like one day, instead of saying it's just my small hobby, I'm just writing a little bit. Calligraphy. No, this is my business. Like, I own. I'm a business owner. And this is just, just a shift of my perspective. And as a business owner, I do need to use the tools to, you know, help grow my business. And I love that.

B (47:34)

I love that. I don't think we've ever talked about that on the podcast, actually. Like, that those words really matter. It kind of, kind of hurts my spirit a little bit when I, When I, I'm like, what do you guys, what do you do? There's like, oh, I, I have a little quote unquote, I have a little Etsy shop. And I'm like, ah, don't say that. It's not little, like, don't say that. Just it's. You have an E commerce business, you have an online business. That's what you have.

A (47:57)

Yeah. And who decides, like, who decides, like, little until, like, how many sales do you need to do? Like, I think my Etsy is like, now over 200,000 for like, you know, the, the. For the last, like two, three years. And like, who determines the little or not little? Right? Like the amount of employees, the amount of revenue, the amount of orders. Like, who determines that? Like, no one. Like.

B (48:22)

Yeah, Even if it's, even if it's zero. Even if it's zero. Don't. You could change the words. And I want to encourage anyone to think it's. I know this doesn't sound like it matters, but it does matter. It does. It does matter. Because you're telling the universe that you're little and you're telling you and you're shrinking yourself down because you're afraid of someone judging you. And the reality is. Yeah, exactly. And the reality is, is you kind of, you have to, you have. Instead of saying just my little Etsy shop or just my little. I'm playing with this like, little Etsy or this, this online business. Just like, no, I'm building an online business. I'm building an online business that can equal 0 sales. Who cares? It could equal 10 sales, 10, 20 sales. It doesn't matter. But the point is, is like, I'm building an online business. I'm building an E commerce business. I'm building a calligraphy online calligraphy business. And that I would encourage anyone to stop using those words. You're not little. Stop using those words. Don't let anybody share that with you.

A (49:17)

I love it. Oh, my God. I love how you mentioned that you. It's not that I'm, like, telling you that's like a little something, but you're exactly telling the universe. And, like, you don't want to mess with the universe by saying those words. So I love it. I love this perspective to little words matter.

B (49:35)

But, Valerie, this has been incredible. Where can people find you, Learn more about you, Learn more from you. Maybe about. About calligraphy. Take a workshop. Like, where can people follow you?

A (49:45)

Yeah, I. I have a website, social media, and my Etsy shop. I'm happy to share those and happy to answer questions. And it was an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Cody, for having me on this amazing podcast. I really enjoyed the conversation. I had so many insights. I'm gonna write it all down, but thank you so much for sharing your perspective. I appreciate it.

B (50:10)

Absolutely. No, absolutely. And for anyone listening to this or watching this, we will share Valerie's links, all of her social links, and all those things that she talked about in the show notes in the. In the description below. But yeah, it's. It's been a pleasure. Valerie, thank you for coming on and also well done on your first podcast. So thanks for sharing your first one with us.

A (50:30)

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. It was amazing. Thank you, Claudia.

B (50:34)

Awesome. Talk to you soon.

A (50:35)

Okay, talk to you. Bye.