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- [00:00]
A
If you think of a brand, it's not the logo, it's not the name, it's not the colors on your website. It's the experience that a customer has with you. How do you make them feel? If they have a problem with you, how do you resolve it to their benefit? Those are the things that really make up how a person feels about a brand, not the color of the logo.
- [00:21]
B
Welcome to Built online. I'm Cody McGuffey, and this podcast is all about one thing. Building the business of your dreams. Selling art, teaching classes, starting a blog, launching a brand. Whatever your passion is, we show you how to turn it into real income. I created everbee to help anyone with a dream start and scale business.
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A
Ever Be, Ever be Ever be Ever.
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B
Be, ever be, ever be. We now serve over 800,000 creators all across the globe. On this show, we bring on real entrepreneurs who have done it. They share their secrets, they share their failures. The exact steps that you can take to get started. What if you can get one golden nugget out of today's episode? And it's the breakthrough that takes you from just dreaming to actually living a life on your terms. At Ever Be, we believe that every human is a creator, and every creator should own a business. Jim, what's going on? How are you?
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A
Good. Good to be with you.
- [01:15]
B
Yeah, thanks for being here. I appreciate it. How's your day going so far?
- [01:18]
A
Not too bad, right after a holiday, it's a little tough getting back into it again, but nice.
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B
What does life look like for you? Curious. Before we jump into all the. All the deep stuff, are you. What is. What does life look like for you?
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A
Married for 30 years, grown kids, and able to actually now kind of spend a little bit more time building the businesses that I've created over the last 15 years and really able to focus on them given undivided attention.
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B
Amazing. What are those businesses typically like? So when you say business, is that plural again?
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A
It's two. Yeah, it's two. So I opened a strategic communications kind of more of a PR shop about 15 years ago after being in the Strategic Communications Agency, big agency business for a long time, and then about eight years ago, after being asked to do a lot of rebranding assignments for. For organizations, kind of said there's a niche in this that we need to fully explore and build out a methodology, and then let's launch a separate agency that focuses just on that brand transformation for organizations. And it's been fascinating. It's really kind of the highlight of all the years. I'VE spent in this business doing communications and branding and advertising and change management and internal communications and executive coaching really rolls all of that into one offering. But in a very specific niche is those companies that need or want to rebrand to be able to kind of drive their growth forward.
- [02:57]
B
I could totally see the, the challenges with that as a growing business ourselves. I wouldn't have understood that three years ago when we started business, because you don't think about rebranding when you're trying to like just get your. But and you also don't have leadership and you have employees and you have to like, you have to think about culture. But as you get a little bigger, we're 45 people, you start having to think about change management and like this corporate stuff that you would to hear as a full time employee from bigger companies. You start to start understanding. Oh wow. There's actually a lot of issues in here with understanding how to communicate this, how to do it right the first time. I want to talk to you about two things. I want to ask about two things because I didn't know that PR was actually your first business. So you, you've had that business for 15 years. This rebranding company is how old? A couple years?
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A
Eight years? Oh yeah, 2017.
- [03:48]
B
Oh, great. Cool. So I kind of want to personally ask you about those two things and hopefully everyone can just kind of listen in and kind of just get value from it. How's that? Sure. Amazing. So first, when does a company understand when they need to be go through a rebrand you've, you've rebranded for. Can you maybe name some companies too? I know you mentioned McDonald's. Other ones. How does somebody know you know it?
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A
There's usually kind of a tension point that develops where you realize either intuitively or through research that the brand is just not helping your business grow in the way it needs to. It's kind of tethering you down. And you know, it. It, it could often be that the brand that you originally created for your business when you started it up, you've outgrown it. Now you've or you've grown beyond in terms of products or services that you're offering and that brand is still very limiting you in the way that you.
- [04:47]
B
Originally almost like feel like you're pigeonholed a little bit.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And that, you know, and you're trying to sell a new product. But people are saying, I thought you only did this. And you're like, well, yeah, we did when we started. And you. That's when you realize, you know, it's.
- [05:01]
B
Not helping anyway, we're kind of doing that right now. I'll speak from personal and it'd be interesting because a lot of listeners right now there are customers, they're our users and so they're going to hear like some of my thoughts and that's going to be interesting perspective, maybe. Everbee started out as a Etsy product research tool.
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A
Okay.
- [05:18]
B
We did a very specific thing for a very specific platform, Etsy. And since then. So that was three and a half years ago, almost four years ago when we started. Now since then we built lots of other solutions not only for Etsy and not only product research, email marketing, we, we offer for literally any entrepreneur. So you can better, you can compete. We compete with like mailchimp or Klaviyo of the world and stuff like this. So that's an example. And then also more exciting to me is Everbee store, which is our Shopify competitor, our WIX competitor, our like I describe it as that competitor because it's the easiest way to do it. But really it's our creator commerce platform. It's the entire platform to power an entire business online. Online business, specifically selling for online products and physical products and digital products. But when people are talking to us, they say, oh, you guys do stuff on Etsy, right? And I used to be so proud of that. I'm like, no, no, no, we do more and like. So is this, is this the proper feeling that I'm having here? Is that, is that something that you can relate to?
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A
Yeah, it's, you know what, what Oftentimes you get those companies that would have originally named and branded themselves as, you know, the Etsy Bee or, you know, something that, that. Where they described their category, they did in the name. Yeah, that's really hard to break free from that and to grow because you're. You pigeon hold yourself in there with that name. Never be has got lots of room to grow, lots of legs to grow. It's just educating and changing people's perceptions as to all the products and services you offer.
- [06:59]
B
So I've read. What was it? The 11 immutable laws of marketing. Does that sound familiar? Yeah, I don't know if it's 11 or 13 or whatever. 18 maybe. It was quite the opposite of what we're talking about here. It was like when you have, you only have a certain amount of space in somebody's mind and I'm going to butcher this, but basically it's. You don't really, you don't really want to Rebrand, if they're branded, you should probably launch like another product line or something like that in most cases. So I know that I'm kind of going against the grain in that, of that book's advice. Tell me what you think about this.
- [07:35]
A
No, and that's a great, a great question because I think as you're feeling this tension, if you're realizing that your, your growth is constrained because of the brand that you've had, you have some decisions to, to make you. You can decide that you can just refresh your brand, which means a visual makeover, a new coat of paint to it that makes it look more modern, and, you know, you can add some new kind of language in there that makes you feel like a different company than what you were in the past, or you can reposition, meaning you go to market in a different way that it tells your story to new audiences you're trying to attract, or new geographic markets, new business, you know, clientele or so forth. Or you can rebrand, which is where you basically stop and say, let's start again. Let's re as in make new our brand. And that should be from top to bottom, or bottom to top, actually.
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B
Logos, we're talking the name, talking everything.
- [08:37]
A
Or just, yeah, name. You know, brand promise, your unique value proposition, a reorganization of your product and service line that feels broader so that it includes more of the folks that you're trying to bring in. The way you go to market, the way you look, you feel, and most importantly, your customer experience. So if you think of a brand, it's not the logo, it's not the name, it's not the colors on your website. It's the experience that a customer has with you. How do you make them feel? If you have, if they have a problem with you, how do you resolve it to their benefit? Those are the things that really make up how a person feels about a brand. Not the color of the logo. So it's, it's making sure that the experience delivers against the way you're wanting to go to market, the kind of, kind of customers that you want to gain in the future. All that built into it is a rebrand.
- [09:35]
B
I wrote this thing down that I believe you. This is quote from you. The golden rule of branding is it needs to be aspirational. It needs to be something that supports you forward. What does that mean?
- [09:47]
A
Well, if you're going to go into the trouble and the expense and the time and all the energy of rebranding your organization, don't just change it a little bit take advantage of this unique opportunity with which to stand up a brand that's really going to work for years to come, that's forward facing, that's going to enable growth for your organization that beyond what you ever imagined. So when, when we go through this exercise with clients and we'll say, you know, you know, okay, what, what is it that makes up your brand today? How are you defined by your customers? But where do you want to be? And what are the strategic growth plans that you've got for years to come? And, and what new markets are you planning on opening? And let's brand to that, not to where you are today. So it's a leap, there's no question of it. But, but unless you put that out there, you're never going to bring the people forward that you want to be a part of your brand in the future. So you gotta be aspirational when you do a rebrand.
- [10:49]
B
Are, are you saying as a brand, are we saying, okay, we are not this anymore, we are that now? And is there a risk of losing the people that were loyal to that past brand? Like, and how do you mitigate that risk?
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A
So, so yes, there is a risk if you don't do it right. So the first thing you want to understand is what is it that those existing customers that you know hold you dearly? Why is it they love you? What is it about the organization that's important to them, that those kernels of those gems is what you carry forward to you in the new brand. But let go of the junk that you don't need anymore that's not driving your business forward. Go ahead and shed that, but pull forward what's most important to your customers, but just represent it to them in a way that when they hear it, they're going to say, oh, they're still the same because in the way they're going to treat me, but look at what all else they're going to bring to me, they're going to enable me to be able to do that I hadn't counted on in the past.
- [11:56]
B
What's an example of this like you did McDonald's, I think you said. Or what's one that you can like know for sure? You can answer pretty much anything on.
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A
Yeah, you know, and here's, here's a good one because it's a, it's an obvious reason why organization needs to rebrand. And that's if you look at the credit union industry. So these are banking services that were provided to employees of a particular company or association or whatever. They're out there all over the place and they're rebranding like crazy because in order for them to survive, they need to get customers beyond the original employee base which they were created for. They have to grow their assets. They got to take on additional customers. So. So that means that they have to reach out and attract new customers to something that is named about some other company. And it's. So it's confusing to these customers as to why. Why would I want to go be part of the General Motors Credit Union if I don't work for General Motors? So they're realizing that in order to achieve their growth plans, they need to rebrand. They need to let go of that previous employer association and come up with an inspiring new name that draws people in. So we did work recently with Sandia Laboratories Federal Credit Union, this is down in New Mexico. And they were that Sandia Labs was the place where some of the original kind of nuclear developments took place. A lot of engineers, that was their credit union. But their ability to grow is limited because of geographically too. They want to open up in other, other states. So once you decide to let go of that, it's very easy to then look creatively at what do we want to embrace for the future.
- [13:45]
B
I think about, like when I lived in San Diego, California, there was San Diego County Credit Union, right. And you. There's part of the upside is like, oh, well, there's San Diego. So I'm really loyal to like a San Diego County Credit Union. Then I'll go there. But there's more downsides than I would see upsides, right? Because I think about it's too local for modern age. They're definitely not able to expand outside of San Diego. So they can't go to like, let's say Northern California. And like. So it's right. So they're pigeonholing themselves and they don't get to like share the brand assets and the brand loyalty across the people move and like all this other stuff.
- [14:21]
A
Right, well, and they have to grow to afford the technology investment that people want in their banking these days, you know, so. So it's it. They don't really have much choice. They have to grow. They got to let go of the past. So in that case, we, we rebranded the organization to sunward, focusing forward toward the sun. Very aspirational, very kind of Southwest feel to it, but didn't lock it into the Southwest if they were ever to grow beyond that. And it just allowed them to retell their story in a much different Way than they have been perceived in the past. Past. All the barriers go down to anybody saying, what were the places I want to bank? All of a sudden they can make the list.
- [15:07]
B
I have a couple questions that have come up once in a while with. With me. Everybody is in the business of creating entrepreneurs, right? This is what. This is what we do. And that's what I love doing. That's what Built Online is all about. Like, building online. Literally building a business online. And we get branding questions. A lot come through just naturally through conversations.
- [15:26]
A
And.
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B
And they start with, like, a lot of examples are stores just get started, like, I'm gonna sell T shirts. Cool. And so what do they name their shirt? They. What do they name their store? Like, mama T shirts. Mama T shirts. Right. Makes sense. But I'm like, I usually me starting. I've started like, what, 10, 10 businesses that have. A lot of them have failed. I'm sure you too, you start realizing, oh, you just don't want to, like, pigeonhole yourselves too early if you. If you can. If you can help it, Right? So what would you say to that person who like starting a business today and they need to think a little bit of branding. They don't obsess over it, but, like, what are some common pitfalls they should watch out for?
- [16:03]
A
Right? So if you think about it, branding is differentiation. It's about defining who you are and how you are different from your competitors. So that's the first exercise you need to put yourself through is how am I going to be different than my competitors? Because there's. There's competition in any category that you're wanting to enter. If you get your arms around that and kind of that unique value proposition. And it's hard for people to do because they want to be everything to all people. It's really hard to start a business from scratch and be everything for all people. So define your market, define who you're catering to, who you're servicing and what makes you different and stake out that ground and know that you can always grow from there. So that you want to make sure that that brand has the elasticity to it that you need to be able to grow. You don't know where growth is going to come from. Maybe today it's T shirts, tomorrow it's shorts or pants or jeans or whatever. So kind of reflect upon what's the possibility that we may grow into and build that into your brand from the start.
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B
I love that.
- [17:14]
A
Too many people, then this is what we oftentimes run into, is too many Entrepreneurs will brand their business, they won't spend a lot of time on it and they'll come up with a name that feels good to them. But anybody else sitting around the table is going to go, what, what does that mean? Or boy, that seems really kind of too industry ish. Get more perspectives. Find out from your customers what's important to them and, and design your brand to the outcome of what you do for your customers. Not that you sell a T shirt, but what are those T shirts do for the people that wear them. And all of a sudden, yeah, it's an emotional connection. That's what brands do, is they connect emotionally.
- [18:04]
B
That's very interesting. I, I love this. What I've found, come to find when I look at other companies, I find that a lot of them usually use an object and I like objects because usually you could attach a lot of emotional meaning to objects. You meant you, you said sun and you think of the sun. I mean, depending on how you look at it. But I see a very positive thing for the world. It's very inspirational. It's inspiring. Comes up and down. It goes up and down every day. It's beautiful. I think of a lot of animals, like a lot of animal names. I think they're so perfect for brands because it can mean anything. We chose be ever be and we just threw ever in front of it because I would have got b.com if it was available. Right. But ever B is even better.
- [18:50]
A
Now you have Meghan Markle's new brand as. As ever as ever.
- [18:56]
B
Yeah. That's interesting. So, but I love animal names and flower names are usually good and sometimes you could use like. I'm noticing a trend of like two kids names like Ella and Harper, for example, and it could mean pretty much anything. And so I don't know. I do like the idea of not pigeonholing yourself. So. Because you don't know, as an entrepreneurship roller coaster is so up and down, you could be selling like you said cheers today and socks tomorrow.
- [19:23]
A
Right, Right. Yeah. So. So it's kind of, I know it's hard. You're like standing up the business. You're. You're trying to get it all put together and get your operations in place. And the right people try to carve out some time to think ahead, to think about how you're going to differentiate yourself and feel free to get objective viewpoints as well too. You know, invite some people in if you can afford outside, you know, kind of marketing, branding council, take advantage of it because then you, you won't find yourself just a handful of years down the road having to go back and change your brand as a result of what you originally decided upon.
- [20:03]
B
I agree with that. Yeah. Something I'm just really, really happy about is the elasticity was built in mind with ever be but in my previous companies it wasn't really we vision. So I would, I would highly recommend that for anyone listening to this. If you're talking about starting, starting your business now or naming your business, just think about elasticity is a great way to put it. I want to talk about, or I want to ask you about repositioning. Now. How does one reposition and what does that mean compared to rebranding?
- [20:34]
A
So we're seeing probably some of the biggest repositioning take place in the retail marketplace and kind of the apparel industry. So the two biggest ones of the last several years were Victoria's Secret and Amber Crombie and Fetch. So those were, those were, you know, retail apparel who had really tightly defined the customer that they were going after and created styles only for them, very specifically for them. Whether it was the Victoria's Secret angel or the Abercrombie and Fitch, you know, bare chested young teenage boy.
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B
Okay.
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A
And they became, they certainly drew in those customers that liked and felt good in whatever they were selling, but it alienated everybody else. And you can only grow so big and so far when you're, you know, when you're so tightly niched like that. So both of them realized they needed to let go. They needed to kind of step back. They needed to reposition their brands to be more inclusive, to be more available.
- [21:44]
B
Different body types, different body types, different.
- [21:46]
A
Sizes, you know, and so, I mean, Victoria's Secret's a phenomenal example of it and how you, you then have to let go of that marketing imagery of the scantily clad angels walking down the Runway, you know, to. They actually took on, you know, like Megan Rapone and different actresses and so forth that came in all different kind of body shapes and sizes as their brand ambassadors. That's what repositioning is. They kept the same name. They're still in the same business of selling lingerie apparel or young teen apparel. But they realized they needed to create a broader feeling and bigger net to bring more people in if they were going to survive.
- [22:32]
B
They're in the making people feel confident or making people feel good business that happens to sell lingerie or peril. That's interesting where as a founder myself, I worry about sometimes stuff like this. And I said, well, if you're saying yes, to everybody. Then you're saying like you're basically appealing to nobody. Right. Like if you're trying to appeal to everybody, then you're appealing to nobody. And so how do you balance that in a repositioning strategy?
- [22:59]
A
Yeah, well, and I think it, it's realizing that brands do evolve over time. Businesses evolve and so their brands need to as well. So it's okay that those two companies started out in a niche that, you know, made them successful and opened stores in every mall across the country and online sales and so forth. But it, I think it, in both those cases it got ahead of them and then they all of a sudden got pinched by it. And, and that's where you want to be able to stay on top of your brand, to be able to realize the cultural context in which you're living. You know, if it's all of a sudden embracing different body types and sizes and everything and you know, and self confidence and who, you know, how you look and feel and so forth. And your brand is still really. Yeah. Be a little bit more conscious of what's going on around you. Both of them, yes. Needed to evolve and would have to at some point, but they let it go a little too long to be okay.
- [24:03]
B
So we're not saying that. And tell me if, tell me if I'm wrong here, but you're not saying that they should have probably opened with an all inclusive and more this broad strategy. At first it did probably the right thing for their business by alienating almost other people because that's how you penetrate. But then now they've evolved and now they kind of have to evolve with the market and with the culture and all that stuff. Would you agree with that or do you disagree with that?
- [24:24]
A
If you start out in a niche, you have to accept the fact at some point you're. That the boundaries of that niche are going to have to grow.
- [24:31]
B
Yeah, got it. That's, it's so interesting because this is very, very relevant forever be right now because we are expanding our positioning a little bit too, to the point where we're heavy. Heavy. Like everyone should own a business. Right? Every single person should own a business. And that alienates like other people who don't. Don't agree with that, which is a lot of the entrepreneurship community don't actually agree that everybody should own a business or could own a business because for some reason we love to pump our chest and say, hey, it's really hard. Only the toughest can survive. Which is true too. But also we live in 20, 25 where people can actually have a side business and actually can do really well with it too. Yeah, sure, that's very interesting. Okay. And jumping to the PR side of things. I know we're gonna totally flip because I just want to. I know we're getting short on time. What specifically do you do in the PR side of things? Who do you typically serve and what kind of businesses should even leverage pr?
- [25:31]
A
So I grew up in the PR agency business working for some of the big agencies, the Ogilvies, Fleshman, Hillards, Ketchums, Porter Novell, and ran their Chicago offices here before deciding it was time to get out of the agency business and went to, or at least the big agency business and went to McDonald's Corporation to do some senior level consulting out there. It's McDonald's that after three years of consulting said to me, why don't you open your own agency and you'll be our first client, you know, and we'll send you more business and enable you to get up and off the ground running and hire the people you want. Oh my gosh, this is too good. So, so, you know, in public relations as an industry has evolved tremendously. It used to be very much what you would describe as the publicists or the publicity side of things. Now it's very much the owned communications channels that are available to us online through social media platforms and so forth. And you know, it's, it's clearly identifying what are the messages your brand wants to convey to current customers, prospective customers, influencers, people who decide your fate, like government relations, employees and that kind of stuff. What are those messages and how are you going to convey them out? In a way that engages people in your story and, and enables you to, you know, create a dialogue to enhance relationships and engage people in ways that, that, that like traditional advertising doesn't. Because that's very much the defined and pushed message out to consumers. PR is a little bit more the two way.
- [27:13]
B
Kind of like other people talking about you. Right. That's how I think about it.
- [27:17]
A
You're talking with them. You know, I mean that's, that's what the public relations side of things does, is that you're, you're not just pushing out a message, but you're, you're, what's.
- [27:26]
B
An example of that? I think about PRs.
- [27:29]
A
Good. Yeah. Any of your social channels, you know, are two should be two way dialogue with, with your followers. You know, if it's, if, if you're having to relate, you know, we'll do a lot of forming relationships with business organizations on behalf of our clients or non profit organizations or government affairs representatives, people who are deciding on legislation and regulation, regulation and so forth. It's all dialogue, it's all communications, it's all going back and forth and creating relationships that are beneficial to your business.
- [28:06]
B
I'm having a hard time kind of grasp like the, the found fundamental. Like what's an example of a. Because I always think about public relations as. I know it's a broad thing, but I think about it as. There's an article on Forbes. They just wrote an article about ever be for example. And I think of that as public relations. I understand that it could be an interview with Forbes too and that could be a social or video form of public relations. But those are the kind of two things that I'm thinking about here. What exactly are you talking about with a two way dialogue? How does that differ what I said?
- [28:42]
A
So, so as an example. So you're absolutely right that, that, and that was the origin of public relations was that using the media to convey that your story in the way that you wanted people to hear about it and kind of controlling that. And then it's grown so, so far beyond that now. Mostly because media used to be the gate point to your audiences. You know, we didn't, we, we watched tv, we read the newspaper, we looked at magazines. Now it's shifted to these other communications podcasts. Yeah, where you can. Yeah, like exactly like podcasts where you can. Your, your people are. Their information sources that they're, they're gaining insights from has just exploded. And so all of a sudden those are a little bit more, it's not that kind of formal gatekeeper that you saw with the Forbes magazine for years. It's now, you know, entrepreneurs like yourself who are creating podcasts or, or blogs or online kind of communities and so forth. And you need to get in as part of those to talk about your brand. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's, it's changed dramatically, trust me, in the, in the years that I've been in the business and the kind of work that we do now is, you know, you can't dictate how you want people to think about you anymore. You have to prove it first of all through your actions and then in the way you shape your story around those actions.
- [30:12]
B
What is a typical like let's say ever be right. You know, really don't know a whole lot about ever be right. Now what would a PR agency, what should, what should they be doing with us for us? How can we work together? Like what would that look like an ideal, like platonic ideal state?
- [30:26]
A
Yeah. So I'm always going to say one of the foundational pieces of any PR program still needs to be reaching out to those original traditional media medium. Yeah. Because the credibility that they bring is far beyond what anything else that you can deliver. So to get a story in USA Today, to get a story on some news, you know, program, you can re merchandise that in so many different of the other communications platforms, leveraging the credibility that it brings. So we'll go out and we'll get the original news story and then we'll take it back, you know, and rework it on the social channels, in the, you know, in the blogs, in all the different ways that we can communicate with people because of the credibility that brings across those different channels. But then it's deciding where, where's your audience really, you know, so where's your customer base?
- [31:26]
B
Yeah, like our customers don't hang out on TechCrunch, whereas like TechCrunch for a tech company is awesome, but like it doesn't really serve our users. It doesn't serve really our business.
- [31:36]
A
So where, where are those customers? What, what are their information sources? Where are they seeking out, you know, new ideas, insights, information they need to make their business more successful? Then you speak, you find the, the appropriate channels that get to them. So it could be podcasts, it could be, you know, it could be bloggers who aren't necessarily a traditional media person, but maybe they're a, you know, they've got a long history in an industry and now they write their own blogs or they have their own newsletter or whatever and they bring a lot of credibility, you know, among readers. Trying to get in front of them and getting an interview, getting a story about you or a mention of the company or so forth that links back to your website so people can go there for more information. So find out where your customers are and focus your energies there.
- [32:28]
B
Sure.
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A
I would kind of say continue to try to get that credibility building traditional media so that you can merchandise it across all those channels, but also go directly to where your customers are, what they're reading.
- [32:42]
B
I love that maybe you'd know how to answer this. Or maybe not. I always am curious. I remember reading this book or maybe I was watching a documentary on Donald Trump, right. And how he, his attorney, I think maybe watched this one. It's called the Apprentice. It's like fairly new movie a couple years ago and he basically had like three rules of life or whatever. It was. And one of them was like, always be in the news. Do you remember this? Have you ever heard of that? I'm sure it's.
- [33:09]
A
And the man is in the news. Literally, that was president. Yeah.
- [33:14]
B
And so I always wonder now I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's just a strategy. This is a tactic.
- [33:18]
A
Yeah.
- [33:19]
B
And I didn't realize this until recently that people do this on purpose. I thought people just like covered people in the news and like, oh, they're just like, they're famous. But like, no, you stroke this thing and you actually use it as like a lever of growth. And then I, it made me think about like, OpenAI, of course, Elon Musk feud. And like, you're dealing. You're seeing so many feuds. And I'm like, I feel like this is manufactured a little bit.
- [33:44]
A
It's. It's called owning the news cycle. So what the Trump administration will do now is, is feed out stories every day or a post on, you know, social media that then drives the news coverage. And you, there isn't a day that goes by that you don't see this purposely happening because of the resulting news coverage that it gains. So all he, all he has to do now is put something on truth social and boom, it's news. He's not even holding a press conference. He's not showing up anywhere. He's just putting a post on social, on true social, and it becomes the headlines. So it's all very manufactured, very intentional.
- [34:30]
B
So if you understand this game, then you can actually leverage it to help your brand. So if you're an owner of a brand, if you understand where, how your customers and your users react and where they hang out, you, you can kind of like find that flywheel and like kind of stroke it, I guess you could say, right. And work the flywheel, essentially.
- [34:46]
A
Just watch out. Very apparent. Like when you look at new movies coming out or, or new TV show or so forth, the machinery behind elevating the. That star, you know, and start there, all of a sudden they start getting interviews and bookings and they're talking about the, the movie coming. And then there are, at the premiere, they're at events again to just stoke the whole, you know, reminder to the American public that that movie is coming out. And then the things they do afterwards, like promotional tie ins with other brands or, or, you know, they're, they're showing up at other premieres. You're like, wait a second, that person's not in this movie. No, but every time they show up at another premiere, it's mentioned their new movie that just came out. So, so it's all very, very calculated.
- [35:36]
B
If you were to build a PR company. Or maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe it is. If ever b were to hire a PR company, is it typically like we work with one person at your resident agency, for example, and that person is like, how, how does it work? What would that look like? If another brand, I'm curious if another brand looking to do this also.
- [36:00]
A
Yeah, it's usually a team. You know that at the agency that somebody's kind of the account manager or the relationship person. And then you have specialties. You know, you've got your media replay media relations person, your, your, your social person, your content creator, you know, all that kind of things depending upon how much you're investing in, in, in the effort. You know, if you're a small business, maybe you just hire a freelance PR person. So you're not committing, you know, the same kind of dollar amount, but that person can put together their best thinking about how they would go out and approach you. Approach selling you, you know, to media or across different, different communications platforms. So it's an essential in business today to have a PR effort behind you.
- [36:48]
B
You know, I almost wonder now if a lot of companies are actually doing PR without even realizing they're doing priority and they're doing a piece of pr, not, not the full thing, like, I'm sure not, not even intentional. They probably should be more intentional about it because your perception of your brand and your company is, is everything.
- [37:06]
A
Yeah. Was it Bill Gates that said, if I only had a hundred thousand dollars left to promote my business, how would I spend it would be a pr really?
- [37:14]
B
Why do you say that?
- [37:17]
A
Because it's, it's credibility building in addition to awareness building. So it's, it means that there's a calculated strategy on what you're saying to who and when that builds credibility while also advancing your awareness among, among your important audiences.
- [37:38]
B
That's interesting. That makes me think about like, what is the 80, 20 rule, right? Like, what is the 20% of what bill would do? What would you suggest he did if he had 100 grand and he had to take all that and put it. What would be the biggest bang for his buck?
- [37:52]
A
Oh, that's interesting. So I'm assuming it's promoting Microsoft. You know, I think it's, you gotta lean into, you know, a company that size, its leadership perspective on things. It's, and it's, where's its product development going? So it would probably lean into Something about the way they're incorporating AI into product services and what, what the value of that is going to be.
- [38:20]
B
And then he, then how would they just get the distribution of that media? So he would probably, you probably go and buy like traditional media probably to go talk about that, that AI go.
- [38:29]
A
Do an interview with the New York Times or something like that. Yeah, I would. I go right to the top, to the most high profile media outlet and give them an exclusive interview out laying out what, what Microsoft is doing with AI and a little behind the scenes to kind of intrigue people and lay heavy on the messages about what's the value going to be to the user, not to Microsoft, but to the user, how are they going to be able, how it's going to change their lives, their efficiency, their productivity. And knowing that that story will, it'll show up in the New York Times but it'll be blasted everywhere else.
- [39:04]
B
Oh, because what they do that other people, other outlets pull on to it.
- [39:07]
A
And they kind of, every other news outlet will pick up on it if it's given as an explanation. Exclusive to the New York Times.
- [39:13]
B
So and is that exclusive typically like a video 101 discussion, is it?
- [39:18]
A
Yeah, it's usually a sit down. You know, it's always better to be in person if you can. So you know, and, and you know, devote time to, to, you know, give the reporter to be able to dive into subjects and so forth. But you're going to make sure that you are well trained going into it to stay on topic, to stay on message, to make it interesting, to give colorful story examples. You know, so it's, there's a lot of work that goes into that interview before you ever sit down.
- [39:50]
B
That's interesting. And what is one? What does Bill Gates pay for that right there to, to get to that New York Times?
- [39:57]
A
Is he.
- [39:57]
B
And how does the money flow, does it usually float straight from Bill Gates to New York Times?
- [40:03]
A
Oh no, we wouldn't pay the Times. You wouldn't, you know, you'd be offering them an exclusive interview. So that's what they rely upon is new sources. So it would go into either your own internal communications people or an agency.
- [40:19]
B
Who'S help get that.
- [40:21]
A
Yeah, structuring what is it you're going to say and why and practicing it with Bill in advance and then figuring out which reporter do we want to go to at the New York Times that's going to give us the most favorable, you know, outcome for that time and then when and where it takes place, that kind of Controlling a little bit of the environment to be able to benefit. Your story could be that, you know, you invite that New York Times reporter to corporate headquarters, you know, where you can tour them around and you can show them some of the work that's being done, you know, so they see real life and they can bring a photographer or whatever. Even the New York Times would bring a video person as well today because so much of their news is translated to the online platforms. So, like, there's a lot of planning behind it to make it work.
- [41:10]
B
That's very interesting. Okay, cool. I have. I think it's perfect time to wrap up with the rapid fire questions. You ready?
- [41:16]
A
All right.
- [41:17]
B
What's your favorite business book?
- [41:19]
A
You know, the last one I've been reading is Traction. Yeah, just good focus, you know, if anything else, love that.
- [41:29]
B
Rocks and okrs, right? It's all about. Yeah, that's right. We. We do a version of that instead of ever be. And I would say it's very useful for us at least, but also challenging to implement more than I thought, but worth it for us.
- [41:43]
A
Cool.
- [41:44]
B
What's the one thing that you wish that you knew before starting your businesses?
- [41:49]
A
Your. You don't define your own success. Your success is defined by others. So that means it has to be earned. And. And they have to respect you. And. And they have to be the ones that say that person is successful because of the following reasons. What they've done, what they said, what they've accomplished. You can't go out and say, I'm successful. Nobody cares.
- [42:15]
B
What would you have done differently if. If you knew that ahead of time, before businesses?
- [42:20]
A
I think it's building more of those vocal supporters, you know, people who will stand up and sing your praises a little bit more. You know, I grew up in the Midwest. We're very humble out here, at least we used to be. And. And. And you would never think of doing that, you know, of. Of asking people to be your advocate like that. So. Took a while to kind of realize it's okay to ask people to do that. You need to do it in return for others, you know, but that we all need people who will stand behind us and kind of shout out, this person's done amazing stuff.
- [42:56]
B
I love that. What's the worst advice that you've ever received about business?
- [43:02]
A
That ego is a part of business success. Because it's not. You know, you can pick out the people whose eagles have grown way too big for their britches, and you just. And they just make you feel uncomfortable. So you want to Be confident in yourself. You want to, you know, you know, you want to be able to pump yourself up well, but it does not need to be a negative ego influence on others. Doesn't work.
- [43:35]
B
I agree with that. I remember listening to this podcast years ago, before I even started Ever be. And it was great advice. I still think about it today. I'm gonna butcher the quote, but it was basically like, oh, well, just because he's an doesn't mean that he's an ass. He's successful because he's an. He's actually successful despite being an. It doesn't mean that you have to be an to be successful. And that's. Sometimes we associate. Like when you're starting your businesses, you think that you have to be cutthroat, pump your ch. Pump your chest. You have to cut other people down typically. And it's like, no, you can do that and be successful, but you could also not do that and be successful. It's not correlated directly, you know, so that's interesting. How would you define a creator in today's world? A creator?
- [44:28]
A
Well, it's. I think it's an imaginative person who has an idea and then knows what to do with that idea, how to build a story around it to can share that story with others in an interesting and compelling way. Or, you know, if it's a product, how do you tell the story of that product and make. Have it be relevant to people?
- [44:52]
B
Love that. So it's not necessarily just content creation. It's. It could be a product of, of a physical thing or just some sort of repackaging of something.
- [45:00]
A
Yeah. You know, and oftentimes the product is the person too, you know, so, you know, you, you, you. It may be that you. The content you're creating is about yourself, you know, and you're the product. But it just, it takes a lot of imagination, I think, and then the confidence and the ability to tell that story out to others.
- [45:23]
B
Who do you think should be a business owner?
- [45:26]
A
Only people who would make good bosses to others.
- [45:31]
B
Tell me more about that.
- [45:33]
A
People don't realize when you start a business that, you know, you're going to have employees at some point and if the business is successful and grows, you're going to have more and more employees. You have a responsibility to those people to lead with integrity, to think through what the organization needs today and tomorrow and put in place the infrastructure, put in place the processes to enable people to come and work for you and do their best work. So yeah, you gotta, you have, you have to be Able to. To meet the needs of your employees to be successful.
- [46:10]
B
Is there something that you can. That you know right away when or is that something that you can feel like you can learn? Like what if I'm listening to this and I am not necessarily a. I don't know if I don't consider myself a boss yet or I don't know if I'll be a good boss, what would you say that person?
- [46:26]
A
Well, you. There are a lot of things you can learn. There's a lot of things that, you know, there's a lot of people that are out there will sell you those services of what you need to be able to do it. But it comes from being able to hire good people who deliver what you don't at the start of it all. So if, if you're that, you know, energetic entrepreneurial spark and you're, you know, you're way out ahead of everybody else, you have a responsibility to put in place the people who are going to run the business and make it successful so that you can be out there ahead of everybody else thinking about what's next or cooking up new ideas of that.
- [47:06]
B
If you build the people, the people will build a business.
- [47:09]
A
Yeah, there we go.
- [47:11]
B
Yeah. I love that. Jim, thank you for your time. Where can people. Yeah, where can people find you, follow you? What can they do next steps to if they want to work with you?
- [47:20]
A
All that good stuff. So rebranding experts.com I think we're one of the few, if not the only firms that just specializes in rebranding. That's all we do. So look for us at that web address. We have a, you know, you can go on there. They can fill out a, an evaluation that will. We can then offer perspective on. On. Is rebranding the right option for you or is there a different approach that you might want to take to re, you know, to reposition or refresh your brand instead? You don't have to go all the way to rebranding, but go on the line, fill that out and we're happy to sit down and talk to you.
- [48:00]
B
You guys do repositioning and I think the other one you said before, that also is that not something you're supposed to refreshing.
- [48:06]
A
So we not as much we tend to focus on the bigger, the bigger, more challenging, comprehensive rebranding. That's really where our skill set it comes on. How do you build that end to end process that and that's the pain through it.
- [48:20]
B
And that's the biggest pain. Right. Right There is. I mean. Right. Understood. Jim, thank you for your time. I appreciate you coming on and sharing so much value with us. Really do.
- [48:30]
A
My pleasure. Good to be with you.
- [48:31]
B
Yeah, we'll talk to you soon. We'll have to have you on again.
- [48:33]
A
Cool. Thanks, Cody.