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Built Online
Your Competitors Aren't In Stealth Mode - Here's Why That Matters | ft. Ryan Estes
00:46:25
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- [00:00]
A
I appreciate that. But at some point, if you want to be a founder, then you have to let that go, because you are not a founder unless you put the company on your back, hold your chin up, and walk out that door and let everybody know. If you're not doing that, you have no right to be a founder or call yourself one because you're not. You're a hobbyist. And that's totally fine, you know, but I really want to talk to the people that are like, hey, I'm an entrepreneur. I'm going to start my own business. Well, you got to put it on your back and you got to hike that thing up the mountain. And it's not easy, you know, but there are definitely people that are there to help you, and there's opportunities and. And more than anything else, you're going to get better at it, I guarantee it.
- [00:37]
B
Hey there. I'm Cody McGuffey. I'm a husband dad of three, and I'm the founder of Ever Be, Ever Be. Ever Be Everbee, where we serve over a million creators across the globe, helping them grow thriving online businesses. I believe every single human is a creator, and I believe every single creator should own a business, a business that gives them the freedom to build the life that they dream of. Built Online is where creat creators, entrepreneurs and leaders get real insights, real stories, and the edge to build something that's actually lasts. This is where the next generation of builders get built. Ryan, what's up, man? How are you doing?
- [01:12]
A
Good, Cody. Thanks for having me on the show.
- [01:15]
B
Super fired up to have you. We were chatting a little bit before, before the recording, and we obviously Built Online, we're a podcast, and we have a whole bunch of guests come on and we were chatting about how I think a lot of our guests are actually referred. I don't know if you'd call them referred, but basically presented by. By your company. So I thought. I thought it was a cool opportunity for us to talk and just hang out and talk about online business, all that good stuff. So welcome.
- [01:40]
A
Yeah, thanks, Cody. I really appreciate it. I mean, I basically have built a career because there's great podcasts like yours available, you know, so hopefully we've. We've been able to like, you know, be a conduit for, like, great folks for your audience in exchange for the. The great opportunity to talk to you and, and your awesome podcast.
- [02:00]
B
It's. It's fun. I think it's. It actually. It. I. I never knew before having a podcast, like, what kind of problems there are and just like any business, right. I didn't even know that this was a problem to be solved, like getting guests on your. On your podcast. Like, of course, you think about it where, like, when you're like, oh, I'm going to start a podcast, who's going to come on my podcast? I mean, yeah, you think about it from that level, but it's obviously a big enough. Big enough problem for a lot of other people. I thought that was just my own problem, but I think you guys are solving a problem at scale, which is.
- [02:31]
A
Which is super powerful, 100%, you know, and I mean, for folks listening, you know, Kitcaster books funded startup founders, entrepreneurs with exits on other people's podcasts, like this podcast, you know, and the reason we're able to do that is because you solved a lot of other problems before this one, you know, because this is a very big podcast and has a fantastic audience. So getting to that point is actually really hard, you know, I mean, talking to podcasters all day long, that. That's a huge problem. Like, how do I get people on my podcast? Because Everybody starts with zero subscribers on YouTube. Sure, zero subscribers on a podcast. Everyone starts with a little bit of butterflies, you know, So I, I feel really confident in the caliber of like, the, the people we work with, which is amazing. But just as much so, you know, being able to come on great PO podcast like this, it's like everybody has to put in the work in order for, like, to have this, this really cool conversation that you're just so adept at, like, pulling out of folks, you know, so it's. It's a fun place to be ultimately, as a person who, like, loves conversation, never shuts up, you know, I grew up in coffee shops, going to Village Inn with my friends. That's where all the degenerates were hanging out. It's where all the fun was. Talking all night long. It feels like I just never had the opportunity to really grow up, and I just think it's fantastic.
- [03:52]
B
That's really cool. So Kitcaster, like, you kind of already kind of introduced what it is, but I want to selfishly understand more about what, what y' all do, because I haven't had this conversation before. This is a brand new conversation for me, and I haven't talked to any really anyone that does what you do. So I'll tell you how I just how I think of Kitcaster at this moment, and then you can kind of like layer on and like, make it better. Does that sound cool?
- [04:15]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [04:16]
B
So for. So for me, you are a podcast booking agency and specifically you serve both parties, which is the guest and also the podcast. But primarily you are trying to. If I was a person, Cody, and I'm like, hey, I want to build my, continue to build my brand or my personal brand or my maybe my everbee brand, my ever be story, which is our tech company, then I would probably go to Ryan and go to kitcaster and be like, hey, guys, I want to go on podcasts. And you would basically go out there and try to get me onto podcasts. Is that correct?
- [04:52]
A
100%. That's exactly it. And we really, we serve founders. We worked with CEOs, we worked with kind of solopreneurs and stuff, but the basis of our customer are, you know, founders, and we've worked with like 800 of them, you know, so you would be a perfect candidate for kitcaster services, largely because Everbridge B is an amazing business. Congratulations.
- [05:17]
B
Thank you.
- [05:17]
A
But also, you already understand kind of the power of founder led marketing. You know, a lot of times what the mistakes that founders make is they wait to go to market strategy when they're ready to go to market. And you only make that mistake once because you realize you have your, you've had your head in the sand for so long and you've built this incredibly cool thing, but nobody knows about it and how are they going to find out? You know, and that's a very, it's a terrible feeling. You know, you're like, I've been in stealth mode. It's like, yeah, the product's out. You're still in stealth mode, buddy. Come on, let's get out of stealth mode. Let's go tell somebody. So, you know, we really believe founder led marketing is something that, you know, founders are going to found their startup people for the rest of their life. So you got a project right now, congratulations. But when that. Every project has a beginning, middle, and an end. And when that one ends, what are you taking with you onto the next project? Well, it's what they call personal brand, which I, I know is kind of a cringy term, but ultimately it's just like your reputation and the people you learn, you meet along the way that kind of come along with you. So, you know, for us, conversation is like the, the backbone of building that personal brand. It's just allowing people in a little bit, allowing yourself to be a little bit vulnerable. Which doesn't mean you have to like, you know, cry in your milk and tell your life story. But really it'll, it'll, it Means that you have to kind of struggle on podcasts, which can be challenging sometimes and can be scary. So we want to be there to support, you know, our clients and make sure, you know, they look good, they sound good, they feel good, they're excited about their conversation and, you know, just start getting a ton of content for them, you know, that they can post onto their channels. Not only that, but also just build the confidence and kind of fluency in talking about yourself and your product and hopefully being able to deliver, go to market when the time is right.
- [07:11]
B
I love that. And I think so built online. Our podcast, I think actually don't know our listenership completely anymore, but I would say comfortably, that's around like, we're about 40,000 downloads, you know, per month. And 40,000 downloads for 40,000 people. What that means to me is like 40,000 people that are entrepreneurs, that are builders, that are creators, they're like trying to build something online because otherwise they just wouldn't be listening to our podcast. Right. Maybe my aunt, maybe my aunt that just loves me so much would be listening to my podcast or, you know, someone like that. But besides that, it's, it's going to be like founders. I mean, that's, that's who we support. A lot of our founders, though, if I know our audience pretty well, is they don't actually get in. They don't do this, they don't do podcasts, because they probably don't recognize the power probably yet. And maybe we can kind of go into that first of, of what is the value of a founder? And when I say a founder, meaning, like in your world, it probably means more like somebody like me, which is like a, you know, running a technical, you know, a SaaS company or some sort of, I would say probably a larger scale company. But a lot of our audience listening to this right now, they are probably more like they're this. They're launching their first or second e commerce business and they happen to be selling T shirts to, to Christian moms, for example. Right. And. And they're just like, well, yeah, I'm really passionate about, like, helping Chris, other Christian moms, but is that really a story that I can go and tell onto other podcasts? Like, what do I even have a story to tell here? Can I even be a guest on other people's podcasts? What would you say to her in that case? Because she's still a founder, she's to check these boxes, but she's, she's. She doesn't get it yet.
- [08:59]
A
Yeah, you know, I love that. And everyone has that entry point of, like, whether for whatever reason, you know, why am I going to try my. My side thing or what. What's this idea I have that I want to bring it to life? It's such an incredible moment, and it is super vulnerable, you know, And I. I've. I've done it a lot. I'll tell you a quick story. In another life, I had to go to market agency, and we. You did crowdfunding campaigns, and I had a guy, and he had worked on a. It was a tube squeezer. Is a tube squeezer. So, like, you know, if you. You get to the end of your. Your toothpaste, you can get the last little bit out. You know, okay, this is a $50 tube squeezer. This was the most elegant, beautiful tube squeezer you have ever seen in your life. It was incredible. He spent, like, three years and, like, a half a million dollars making this thing and was like, all right, I want to do a Kickstarter. I was like, great. All right, where's your audience? What, you know, what's your email list? You know, what's your social. He's like, well, because we're trying to count, like, reasonably, like, we have to set the threshold. We want to raise 100 bucks, which means you got to have 100 bucks in the chamber so people can go get on the first day. Then you get the hockey stick growth. There's a whole strategy behind it. Okay, so you want to figure out how many people you got. And I'm like, okay, we're trying to get 100 bucks. I forget what the number was. Probably 100,000 or something. I'm like, well, how many people can you count on for a sale? And he's like, well, I've got 45 followers on. On Twitter at the time, so we got 45 sales right there. And I was like, oh, my friend, those aren't guaranteed sales. I'm talking about guaranteed sales. All that is to say is that, like, he had been in stealth mode so long and protecting his idea, and he really invested in it, and he really, like, kept it tight, largely, I think, because, you know, you get scared of. Of judgment. You don't want people to. To know what you're doing. And it's. It's a variable, very scary place. So, you know, for those folks, I always encourage them to figure out a way to rip the band aid off all at once. Like, announce to the world what you're doing. Tell your f. Family and friends what you're doing. Now Let them know, let be bask in their judgment. Positive or negative, the people closest to you are going to roll their eyes like, wow, you were doing something else last week. But people need to know what you're doing. And if you kind of start with kind of a, the, a bullseye, the people closest to you need to know what you're doing. So podcast clips are, Podcast is a great way to do that. Just kind of at scale, you can get out there, you can fight kind of those butterflies, the feeling of wanting to keep it close to your chest, keep your baby close so nobody thinks your baby's ugly. Rather to, to go out there and share it. Because what happens is, one, you get sales. Two, you get ideas of where it could be better. Three, the things that people are trying to hurt you end up. They don't hurt you that much. And you're actually a lot more confident than you think, you know? So I would say for, you know, the mom who's making T shirts who's like, I don't know if I, I don't want to tell anybody. I want to be a behind the scenes kind of person. I appreciate that. But at some point, if you want to be a founder, then you have to let that go, because you are not a founder unless you put the company on your back, hold your chin up, and walk out that door and let everybody know. If you're not doing that, you have no right to be a founder or call yourself one because you're not. You're a hobbyist. And that's totally fine. You know, but I, I really want to talk to the people that like, hey, I'm an entrepreneur. I, I'm going to start my own business. Well, you got to put it on your back and you got to hike that thing up the mountain. And it's not easy, you know, but there are definitely people that are there to help you and there's opportunities and, and more than anything else, you're going to get better at it. I guarantee it.
- [12:41]
B
Yeah, you know what? I love that. And thanks for saying that. And it's a bold, it's a bold way to say that. And I, and I agree with this. And I also can relate to anyone that's feeling that way because I remember when I was launching my first businesses, starting my first businesses, I wanted to be that. I, I think everybody starts out that way. Just like, I'm just going to be the, be the behind the scenes guy and I'm just going to like, operate this thing, and no one's even Know, I'm going to be the faceless, faceless company. I'm going to be faceless success. And really this is rooted in a fear of judgment and a fear of failing in public. And the cool thing is, is that I started out that way and that's okay and just kind of like go operate and just like, you know, whatever. But eventually, um, it needs to kind of. You need to keep on pulling that band aid off like, like you were saying, Ryan. And when that, when you do that, you recognize that there's literally no one really cares. Yeah, like no one cares. For better or for worse. I mean, just the truth is like I, yeah, just like no one really cares about what you're doing or what you're not doing. They're all worried about what their own, their own lives. And they might make a little two second judgments. Who cares? They go away in a second. But really, what, what, what this really impacts is you personally. Because when you can finally kind of step into the light and say, okay, I'm, I am, I am serving Christian motherhood in this, in this case, and we happen to sell apparel and clothing that empowers moms across the world. Whatever it is, right when you do that, what it does is this beautiful thing. It actually, it, it gives you more power to like lean back into the business even further. Because now you've kind of like put it out in the world and now you want it to be true. And so then you kind of like have more confidence, which is really cool. Anyway, that, that's kind of, that's been my experience with this. I didn't start out that way, but it certainly has, has evolved.
- [14:37]
A
Yeah. 100. I've done it both ways too. I can totally relate. I started my career very public and then shrinked back and was like, no, you know what? I'm going to be behind the scenes guy. I want to, I'm a systems and process guy. I don't want to be the one carrying the project because you intimately connect yourself to the project. And I think that was a mistake. And then I was like, no, actually what I do is I'm connecting with myself to draw interest in the project. There's always differentiation, you know, So I, I felt at least confident enough to know that, man, if I flop in public, to your point, nobody cares. And if a couple of people will emerge that do care and they want to celebrate your wins with you, and then you know that where your ride or dies are, you know, if you have somebody who's like, dude, what are you doing now? That's awesome. That's so cool. You're like, oh, okay, here's, here's the kind of people I want to surround myself with to, to be successful.
- [15:30]
B
I have a question for you, personal question. And I'll try to be really selfish here with, with our time because I think that when I do this, I think other people will get more value out of it. So I'll ask for my own, my own perspective. I get invited to come on to, to a number of podcasts at this point, because telling, talk about the every story or just like whatever, AI, print, on demand, e commerce, all this stuff, which I'm very grateful for, but I almost decline every single one of them. And I do this and I'll share with you and you can find the flaws. I want you to poke holes in this. But for me, it's like, okay, cool. There's going to be a time where I go deep into going on other people's podcasts and tell the story and all this stuff. But for now, I really need to be in like founder mode. I need to be building our own, focusing on my own business from the inside out and not necessarily going out and telling the story. This is how. This is the story in my head, by the way.
- [16:25]
A
Yeah.
- [16:26]
B
Yep. And so that, so that's, that's what I'm doing right now because I feel like I've justified it in my way. And I think it's all rooted into the fact that I don't know if I see the ROI clearly enough to going on other people's podcasts and sharing my time and telling the story. I, I don't see the ROI clearly yet. And I know I'm not alone with this. I, I know there's other founders listening to this of like, yeah, I don't really get it. Like, I'm gonna go on podcast, there's probably gonna get 200 or 300 views or listens, like, what's the point? I could be focusing on like a go to market paid ad strategy, you know, with that time too. What would you say to that? What would you say to me in that case? Like, coach me up, you know, I.
- [17:09]
A
Would probably agree with you. You know, I mean, one thing, you already got a podcast, you know. Now I love working with podcasters because podcasters find themselves in the precarious position and they're like, hey, I want to get on a podcast and talk to each. To people. But they end up not talking because they're interviewing other people.
- [17:27]
B
Interesting. I could see myself doing that, you.
- [17:29]
A
Know, so when you go on other podcasts, it's your time to actually talk, which is great. So, you know, there's only so much time, you know, you're committed to ever be. You put that on your shoulders. You're out here doing podcast, you're public personality. So like you've made the commitment, you know, as much as you possibly can do, you, you can do it. Now as far as roi, now there is, you know, the, the cherry on top is the distribution from the podcast, which is great. You know, sometimes it's 200 people, sometimes it's 40,000, sometimes you hit a home run and it's a million. That's great. But I really like to just say if you took all that out, if it's. This is right for you, if it still makes sense. So there's some, there's some kind of hard things like assets that you get because obviously you, you record your conversation. You know, you can chop that up into shorts. The podcast shorts on tick tock and YouTube and Instagram do absolutely fantastic. Now you're not dependent on the podcast distribution, rather you're building your own distribution, which is really what you need to be doing. So if you have a podcast, great. You have a newsletter, great. If you don't have anything else, you're like, well, I'm trying to get friends on L. LinkedIn. Well, LinkedIn can shut you down at any moment. You know, all these things can. So you need to be building like your, your, your brand, so to speak, on all these different platforms. Now that's, that's kind of hard. Numbers, brass tax. You get these assets. That's real. Now the other thing that happens is you're building confidence. You're getting beats within your stories. You're learning where the punch lines and the jokes are within your own story. You're getting more fluent, you know, and I think conversation is, I think there's people that are virtuistic at it. It's like playing any musical instrument. Like if you practice enough, you can become an absolute expert, you know. Now some people really are interested in that. Some people aren't, you know, But I think podcast guesting for folks that are very new, let's say for like our, our wonderful woman who's making Christ shirts for mothers, which is just such a beautiful company. I love that. Or folks that I work with a lot, a lot of times, which are technical co founders, founders that are much more used to, accustomed to glowing rectangles than talking to people, you know, and, and if you're going to be a founder again and you want to start your own company, you're going to have to get used to talking to people. And I, I think podcast interviews give the. Give you the opportunity to get these reps, to get good at it, to get proficient, to know that, like, if I have, if I have to present for my investors, I'm going to be confident. Because I've talked about this because 17 times on a podcast. I know how to introduce myself at a cocktail party in three sentences. That gets a laugh from the crowd. I know if somebody needs something for me, exactly how to deliver a call to action, how they can help. I know I can describe to a complete layman what my product does, even though it might take me 45 minutes to really unpack what my data security platform does for, like, enterprise companies. If I'm just talking to somebody, I'm like, hey, we do this. And finding that kind of clarity only comes from getting reps on, on conversation. So, you know, to your point, it's like, yeah, you know, sometimes the ROA or ROI won't be there. And I totally get it. It might not be the right channel for you for sure, but for some of these other instances, I think it's just valuable for, for folks who are looking for that opportunity.
- [20:55]
B
Yeah, I love that. I think that's the way I look at podcasting in general anyway, is if someone were to say, like, hey, should. Should I do a podcast? Because I get that, like, should I start a podcast? And I'm like, well, what are you trying to do? You know? Well, I want to turn into an income stream. I'm just like, well, that's not the right way to look at podcasting. It just doesn't really work like that, you know, like, our podcast doesn't drive any revenue, to be very frank. We. We could. I probably do some sponsorships and we could do that stuff and. But we just don't. Because I don't want to be accountable for any sponsors, you know, like on the podcast right now, at least. Like, but they're like, well, does it give you customers? And I'm like, well, yeah, it does probably. But attribution is really tricky too. Like, these aren't really. We haven't really focused on attribution. Like, hey, this person listens to the podcast, ended up turning into a customer. Like, for example, for our company, it's. It's a very lower ticket, right? Like, someone's Paying us is 30amonth. Typically. I could, I can see it, though. If you're an agency and you have a $6,000, you know, a month type of ticket, podcasting is like almost for me, I'd be like, you should 100% be doing podcasting. Like it's a personal sale. You need to, they, they get warmed up about your personality, they understand you. You solve other problems kind of in that conversation. And then like now you get to the sales call. It's like it's a no brainer. You have the problem, the solution. I love that for that. Anyway, I'm kind of, kind of rambling a little bit there, but it's an interesting thing for sure. Podcasting.
- [22:17]
A
Yeah, you're, you're definitely right. If your LTV is like really high and your sales cycle is long, podcast all day long.
- [22:24]
B
All day.
- [22:25]
A
But you know, we, I'll talk to a lot of people that are self publishing their memoir, you know, and they're really excited because I might tip my hat to them. I can't imagine how hard it is writing a book. They spend a year writing a book, they got it to the finish line. They're like, I'm going to go on podcasts and get all these book sales. It's not going to happen. You know, people, people do not hear an author, even ones that they admire from a podcast, stop folding laundry, hit the link, go to the Amazon, order the book. It doesn't happen, unfortunately. So I love working with authors, but I, it's always more around personal branding and what the call to action really is going to be. Because getting someone to go directly from a podcast to go make a purchase is very, very challenging. And if, if you're impressed with 0.01% click through conversion, go for it. Otherwise there's probably are much better returns for, you know, your marketing spend.
- [23:20]
B
What do you think that you should. I love that. That's a. I totally agree with this. What do you think is a. Is the right way to be optimizing like a, like this? What's the proper way to be thinking about this when you know that like that person is crushing it? Is it because their view count went up or is there just. They're, they're. I don't know. What, what is it though? What defines success in, in the podcast world? Let's say that someone came to Kitcaster and they're just like, I have zero anything. How would you define a successful client?
- [23:51]
A
You know, I always start with asking them what they, how they would define it.
- [23:56]
B
Okay.
- [23:56]
A
You know, so, you know, we begin every campaign to say like, hey, this whole thing is going to be about your ideal outcomes, you know, so what you want to get out of it is what we're going to put into it. Exactly.
- [24:05]
B
What is it typically? What is it for them typically?
- [24:08]
A
Well, we just take customer acquisition off the table. Be like, of course, we all want customer acquisition for sure, and we'll have different ways to measure that. But aside from that, what will it be? And so you can get to kind of like the emotional core, I think, of what it is, you know, and it's different for all kinds of different people. Now, there are other. There's other things that podcasts are great for. If you're trying to attract talent, you can just go do that. If people are looking for Runway, half our clients are always kind of chasing Runway. So it's like, okay, we can put you in front of those audiences. You can have those conversations, you can get all those recordings and do all that. But I'm always really interested on, like, what is it? What is in the founder's soul? What are they looking for? You know, what is unsatisfied that they're going out there looking for? So, you know, I think sometimes it comes down to, like, very primary emotions. You know, sometimes it's like spite, you know, like, maybe they got through a weird relationship with a partner or something, and they're like, they want to get out there and stick it to them. You know, something that sounds kind of dark, but I mean, hey, interesting, positive things come out of that. For some people, it's maybe just a lack of community and loneliness. You know, all the founders listening to this, you know how hard it is, you know how hard and lonely it can be of just like, man, there's. How do I deal with all this stuff? I can't tell anybody. You know, maybe I could tell. I can't talk to my staff. Obviously, I can't talk to my partner because they're so bored of my business life for hearing about it for however long. They're sick of hearing about it. Nobody else can really relate. It can be lonely. So you can find kind of like some camaraderie on podcasts. You know, I think for everybody, it runs. It runs the spectrum. You know, I think some people really want to be famous, and they. They. I talk to them all the time, actually. You know, they'll come in and they're like, hey, I did this thing. I want to go on Joe Rogan, you know, or, you know, I want to be on Lex's podcast or Huberman, you know, like, I Need to get on those. And I'm like, oh, boy. Like, with a straight face. And they have no audience and they have no product and, like, but they really want.
- [26:10]
B
That's their outcome. That's their Eventually. Oh, interesting. So I'm in two minds on this for. I get that. I appreciate the ambition for that, for that person. And sometimes I wonder if people listening to it, like, so for me, I'll speak for myself. I didn't really have any interest in doing that in going on those podcasts. Right? No, no, no. Mad respect to them, you know, Mad respect to, like, I listen to those podcasts, but it's just never really been an ideal outcome for me. And I wonder if that's. That just means. Does that mean that I'm probably not the. A podcast guest person that, like, loves this stuff? Am I supposed to want that is. Is kind of the thing in my head or. Yeah. What are your thoughts on this? Because you talk to so many of these people that, like, want those things.
- [26:55]
A
Yeah, it could be. It could be. There is kind of like, there's like a. An aspirational element to. To a lot of the clients that we have now. Some people get drug into a kicking and screaming, and their board is like, dude, you have to go tell somebody you're doing stuff. You know, they show up, but more times than not, they feel like underdogs. They got a bit of a chip on their shoulder. I think this is kind of a founder's journey in general. I know it was mine. I wish I had some big inspiration by Steve Jobs story, but it's just like, every boss I ever had kind of sucked. And so I was like, I didn't do this myself, you know, So I think there's a lot of us that have, like, a little chip on their shoulder, and they're like, man, I need to. I need some shine. It's my turn, you know, which I love that. I love that. That's. You know, these are the fighters, you know, so it could mean that. It could also mean that, like, what makes you a great host is the ability to listen, the ability to go deeper, the ability to. To find where the nugget is and have people unpack it. And that might be the best role for you. I know what it is for me, because I love that. I love when you hear, you know, somebody get to kind of the core of what they're talking about and just like, tell me more. Tell me more. And you'll uncover these, like, jewels of stories and, like, emotion, and you Know that point, you know, you have to have like kind of the. The Socrates in the conversation who's asking the questions and is like allowing the illumination to expose itself. So that could probably just be like your area genius, you know, interesting.
- [28:29]
B
And I think that's, that's. That's interesting that you say that. So I appreciate that. What a cool, cool company, man, that you. That you have and what you built. And I mean that because it's. So if you think about what you're doing at a deeper level, that's why I love businesses, is because like, they're like living organisms and they're kind of like, they have an impact on the world one way. Like one way or another. They're not just here to make us money. It's. It's like the byproduct. It's like you're solving this problem that like, compounds into this other problems, other solutions. And it's like, it's really cool. You know, I look at Kitcaster, I'm thinking about, at its core, you're connecting two people that would have otherwise not been connected to talk about something that is very, very important to somebody, listening to this, that actually plays a role in actually making a difference in that person's life. Like, I've listened to so many podcasts when I was starting my businesses right before ever be was even a thing. And I just had this aspiration, that chip on the shoulder. It was like a bunch of problems. Maybe it's financial problems, like debt problems, like all these things, you know, and these little podcasts, little one one episode, two people discussing something, had these, these micro conversations, had this macro, like, impact on my life over time to where I wouldn't have not been here today if I didn't listen to all those conversations. And you get to play this really cool role in that.
- [29:55]
A
So, yeah, I don't take it for granted, you know, and it's. It's kind of. It's kind of interesting. It's like that the, like hollow fractal everything has all these spiraling consequences off from it. And I, I think my, my career has been kind of a fun example of that, you know, because, you know, 30,000 conversations that we put together is bananas. And you think about like, every single one of those creates a relationship between two people. You know, I've seen people raise millions of dollars from. For their projects. Of course they have customer acquisition, like between a host and a guest. They start a project. Now they have a business. So I'm always looking for like, kind of this Butterfly effect of like what's going on with conversation because it is unbelievably profound. The, the one I, I, I'm keeping a, a perked ear for haven't heard about it yet. Is the Kitcaster babies. I want to see how somehow what we do with these conversations creates a little baby somewhere. And then at that point I'd be like, well, my job here is done.
- [30:53]
B
There you go. Dude, that, that is really cool. I think we see, see business the, the way a very similar light. I get value from those things like that too. For example, ever be. We're, we're 45 full time employees right across the world and we're at this point now we're four and a half years old. So we're still young. Yeah. We have like marriages that have happened inside of Ever Be. Like they met each other inside of Ever Be, which is very special. I don't take that for granted at all. It's like anytime a lot of times as a founder or a creator of your business, we, there's going to be times where you just lack, you lack clarity on why you started the whole thing to begin with. Like, you lack like naturally it's just human nature. Like we lose, we lose sight of that purpose that we first started the company on. And things like this. That's why conversations are like this are so important. They remind you of the impact that you are making. Even if it looks very small, it actually is very, very big on an individual level.
- [31:50]
A
Well. And what a great thing to do is make really small impacts. Making a big impact seems really scary, but if you're making little impacts for the in a positive direction, they compound over time.
- [32:02]
B
That's right.
- [32:02]
A
And you know, that's great, man. And I mean, yeah, Ever Be is so impressive, man. I want to have you on my podcast interview you.
- [32:09]
B
Let's do it. I would normally say no, but you don't want to.
- [32:13]
A
You can't turn me down now.
- [32:14]
B
No, we're live. I have to do now. I would do that. I would, I would 100 love to come on to your podcast, Ryan. That'd be cool. Cool. But yeah, man, that's, it's, it's really special. I love the idea of, of what you're doing. I do. I know we're already at 30 minutes minutes, which is crazy. Can you share with us like what kind of sparked this though? And because it is an online business and a lot of people listening to this, they, yeah, they come here for E commerce typically, but a lot of times they Spin off to a new. They build an agency for themselves, and sometimes that's the fastest path for them. And that's. That's totally fine. You obviously built an agency, a podcast booking agency. Where did you kind of get. Get to see that this was an actual problem? And then how did you actually kind of put it together? And then how's the business going now?
- [33:00]
A
100. So, yeah, we. Our company was launched in fall of 2019, and we were acquired in April. So we kind of got to see the full spectrum of kind of the life cycle of an agency. And I. I come from agency background, all kinds of different stuff. At the time when kind of the inception of Kitcaster, I had a podcast called the Denver Business Podcast, and I would interview local people in Denver. Here in my studio. We. I mean, it ended up. It was like a music podcast. We'd kind of get to business, but I, you know, I'll just be like, dude, you got to hear this new song from A Tribe Called Red. And there went half an hour. But it was a fun podcast. And there was a local gal named Brandy Whalen, good friend of mine, who would take her PR clients and book them onto my show. And so I'd interview them, have a good time. It was good for her. It was good for me. It was perfect. You know, so we're getting lunch, and Brandi and I kind of clicked, and, you know, she was like, we should do a project together. And I was like, yeah, what should we do? She was like, I don't know. Well, we kind of met through podcasting. Let's make podcasts. I was like, ah, it's too much of a pain in the butt. It's. It's hard. There's a lot of moving gears. You know. What else? What else? I was like, well, you know how we met? Like, you're booking guests onto my podcast. Like, it's great for me because I don't, you know, now I don't have to look for guests. I was like, I know I would love it if somebody did this for me. Why don't we try that? She's like, that seems cool. So, you know, now I have very strict rules for myself if I'm validating a project because I'm an excitable guy, and I will run headlong into something, work for it for two years, be the guy with his head in the sand, and, like, not let it out. So I'm like, no, I have to sell it before I make it. You know? So that day, I called three people, you Know, two of them were friends of mine. One of them was a client, was like, hey, would you. Would you buy this? And they're like, sure. I sent them like an invoice and they paid it. And I was like, oh, okay, I think we've got something here. So we spent a couple of months putting together the brand, wrapping the website together, you know, took it to market. We just happened to, like, launch right in time for Covid, where the only thing people had to do was go on podcast. So it was kind of good timing. And we just kind of, you know, rocket shipped up to about a $2 million run rate and had, you know, had a really fun Covid. So that was kind of the inception story, you know, all the way to, you know, exiting the company. I'm still with Kitcaster as head of growth and a partner in the parent company, but, you know, was able to. To sell that company and move forward, you know, which for me is kind of a. A bootstrap founder, you know, is kind of like the. It's kind of like the. I don't know, the. The carnation on my shirt. It just feels great, you know, to do something like that. So for folks out there spinning up an agency, what I would maybe recommend is sometimes the best agency is the one that's right underneath your nose. You know, the world doesn't necessarily need another SEO agency, but what do you like doing and what are you really good at doing? Chances are people need it, too.
- [36:01]
B
That's so interesting. It's very, very inspiring, man. Congratulations on that. That's incredible. Are you. Is it. Is the. The exit amount? Is it public at all or. Or not public?
- [36:12]
A
It's not public. It. I can't talk about a little bit. You know, basically we got kind of a. We. We did a deal that was some cash, some earn out and then equity in the parent company. So there's. There was a nice carrot to get the deal done there. There's a nice carrot every six months for three years, which is awesome. And then there's, like, incentive to make sure that, like, you know, we're motivated for the. The growth and success of the company. Moburst, which is an amazing organization. I mean, it's been an absolute pleasure getting to know these folks. You know, we had Lois from like, private equity and, and from independent operators and folks like that, but ultimately, you know, these guys were the best, and it's. It's been an absolute pleasure, best case scenario. And interestingly enough, because, you know, it wasn't kind of brandy and I's first rodeo, we really kind of wrote out exactly what we wanted in the beginning to make sure that we had clear expectations. Which is important if you're getting in a partnership. And it almost went exactly to script. I mean just.
- [37:12]
B
I love hearing that. So fun to hear that versus like the horror stories, right, which, which we've all heard a million times. But like it's cool to hear the good stories because you don't always hear those because they don't. They're not like super sexy in the headlines and things like this. For anyone understanding exits, who, who doesn't really understand exits and multiples on exits and things like this. E Commerce brands typically it's 1x revenue or something, maybe 2x depending on for agencies. And I know this can kind of go depending on the agency and all this stuff. What should someone be expecting like multiple on EBITDA or, or on our Runway? Just you can kind of ballpark this however you'd like to. Just education for people that has no idea like what an agency is even worth. If they're considering kind of building this or this 100%.
- [37:57]
A
It's probably. Agencies are probably 3 to 4x on EBITDA and if you're, if you're a forex on Ebitda, you probably are more of like a service as a software, you know, like you're gonna have. Probably need some kind of software component in there pretty heavily or you have to. Your revenue per employee is really, really high. You know, which we have all these fancy tools now that you, you can get that done. So you know, we used a company called Go Merge. I think it's gomerge.com they're, they're brokers specifically for agencies. We got like a 3.6 on EBITDA. We were able to secure a higher EBITDA or multiple largely because our brand was so well defined in kind of the, the podcast booking space. We kind of created this whole genre of a company and so especially within SaaS tech business kind of categories, we're number one. And so having kind of that recognition, kind of having that, that built in pipeline, you know, was able to get us a higher multiple. So you know, focusing on revenue per employee, very important and then really focusing on EBITDA is very important too.
- [39:07]
B
I love that. Yeah, thanks for sharing that too. I think all those things weren't necessarily so easy back in 2019 when you first started. But today 2025, I mean AI and like you can automate so many things with AI like the, that revenue per Employee. It can really be. I think that's like the next generation of businesses are going to be like solopreneurs. So I say this a lot. They're going to be like one and two people companies building $100 million revenue. Companies like this is going to be a common thing in the next 10 years.
- [39:34]
A
Yeah, I mean when we were kind of our, our highest kind of body count was like 24. We had 24 at one point and then now we're at eight and I, I, I can see a path to four. You know, honestly. So it's, it's really interesting time right now.
- [39:50]
B
It is an interesting time. I, I think with ever B2 it's interesting too because we're like I said, we're 45 and we're still hiring more. There are certain companies that, in certain stages in companies that you need to kind of like, you know, for us we're a tech company so like we need engineers. Yes. We automate a lot with AI and stuff, but a lot of times we're innovating. So it's like inventing stuff. Like you need human brains for this right now.
- [40:11]
A
Yeah.
- [40:12]
B
And yeah, it's interesting but I think for e commerce brands, like there's going to be a time and time is coming and maybe it's now where two people companies are just scaling out their, their product line and also their, their marketing with just one or two people companies with AI systems. It's really cool.
- [40:29]
A
Oh my. I met one the other day. I interviewed him. Actually. I think it's Swan AI. It's three guys. They got to us, they got to a million dollar run rate. And I think in like in, I think it was six months launched to a million dollar run rate. Six months, three guys. My dude killing.
- [40:48]
B
It happens. It's going to be becoming more and more common. So let's wrap up with the, the last rapid fire questions. You ready?
- [40:56]
A
Ready. I'm ready.
- [40:57]
B
What's your favorite business book?
- [41:00]
A
Traction. Gina Wickman.
- [41:01]
B
Oh, that's a good one. What's the one thing that you wish that you knew before starting your business?
- [41:11]
A
Your project doesn't define who you are.
- [41:13]
B
Oh, interesting. So if it fails, that means that you're not a failure.
- [41:18]
A
That's right. It's gonna fail. Everything fails.
- [41:24]
B
But also if it succeeds, doesn't necessarily mean that you're, that you're successful.
- [41:28]
A
Correct. That's the hardest part. It's, it's, you know, balancing the highs and lows or just ride them both out and go into it hard. You Know, if you really want to celebrate those highs, boy, you're gonna be punished on the lows.
- [41:41]
B
You will. And that's a very true thing. I haven't really got my head around that fully yet, to be honest. From my experiences, personally, I think that's.
- [41:49]
A
The way to do it. I see Jalen hurts, you know, winning the super bowl and doesn't even smile. I'm like, bro, come on, man. Get to the sweet spots of life. The pain and the glory. That's the good stuff.
- [42:01]
B
Yeah, I would say it's really hard to build. In my experience, it's very challenging and maybe even impossible to build a company if you're not fully identified. Like, if you're not identifying with the. The revenue of it, at least for a little while. Now, with that being said, I'm not saying that that's the best way to optimize for happiness. I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's the best way to optimize for growth in your company, which is not always the exact same thing. But, yeah, there's. There's been many, many times in. In my present and also in the past where we've had a down day, and I'm having a down day.
- [42:40]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [42:40]
B
You know, and I'm like. And I think that's probably natural and probably okay. I think it's just.
- [42:46]
A
Yeah, Yeah, I agree. Yeah. The emotions are absolutely normal. It's feeling bad about feeling bad. That's what kills you. You know, if you're like, you know, because this is what happens to me, you know, I close that deal, I'm flying high. I'm king of the world. I miss the deal, I feel terrible. And then. Which is fine. That's what happens. But then I'll be like, dude, why are you allowing, like, this small thing in business to make you feel bad? What? Why would you do that? Like, that voice, that's the one that'll kill you. You know, you gotta just be like, nah, man, I'm gonna feel down because it sucks to lose. It's not supposed to feel good, so just allow that to be here and allow it to leave when it does.
- [43:27]
B
Love that. Who do you think should be a business owner? Who do you think should own a business?
- [43:31]
A
A business owner? I think people that have. Let's see, if I was being really honest, I think people that look at the world and be like, I could do this. You can. It's going to be hard, you know, but it's going to take the. The. The. The stick to it iveness, you know, of somebody who's like, I'm taking a look around. If that person can do it, I can do it. And you're right, you know, you're actually much stronger than you think you are. You actually can go much further than you think you can. You can handle a lot more than you think you can. And I think for people that are in that position, go for it, whether.
- [44:09]
B
You think you can or you think you can't. You're right.
- [44:11]
A
You're right. That's right. 100. And you know, they're the. If you. You have to have that, though, you know, there are people that prefer to be in an orchestra than a jazz combo. They would rather someone hand them the charts and they can perform beautiful music for somebody else. Love those people. And there's other people that are like, dad, just hum the first couple of bars. I want to go do my own thing. You got to be one of those guys, you know, because there is no blueprint, especially the world we're entering right now, which nobody knows what the world's going to look like in five years with robots all over our house and driving around and maybe aliens. Who knows, you know? So, yeah, you have to be a kind of person that can kind of make the most of what you're given. For sure.
- [44:56]
B
Yeah, I love that.
- [44:56]
A
That.
- [44:58]
B
Ryan, thank you so much for coming on, man. This. This 45 minutes flew by. Probably one of the fastest episodes I feel like of it felt the fastest, but it's been a true pleasure. Where can people find you and follow you, learn more about you?
- [45:09]
A
100%. I write a lot about Rev Ops, entre entrepreneurship founder stuff on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. What I'm really excited about right now is my podcast newsletter called AI for Founders, which we'll get Cody on. We've got about 25,000 founders over there that are interested in AI. And I come from kind of like a exploratory place, a lot of people building with AI to kind of see what. What's going on. And I tell you what, nobody has a clear answer. So it's kind of. It's fun conversations to have with other founders that are kind of feeling their way through the darkness right now.
- [45:44]
B
I love that, man. Guys, go. Go follow Ryan. Check out that. Is it. You said AI. I'm sorry, a podcast newsletter. What is the difference between a podcast podcast and a podcast newsletter and a newsletter?
- [45:54]
A
I. I just kind of do them together. It's AI for Founders co. So I'll probably release two or three podcasts a week and then kind of cap it into a weekly newsletter that has kind of a bunch of news, it has prompt suggestions, it has just a bunch of stuff for for founders that are looking to build with AI.
- [46:11]
B
We will link to all of Ryan's links in the show notes in the description below. But Ryan, thank you so much for coming on, man. It's been been a joy.
- [46:19]
A
Loved it. Thanks Cody.
- [46:20]
B
Talk to you soon.