Renick Drysdale (1:34)

We planted more trees last year than the whole of Northern Ireland and Wales combined as a company.

Hannah Beaulieu (1:40)

But carbon offsets have been criticised by some climate scientists who argue they don't reduce the amount of emissions being generated.

Pham Weiwei (1:47)

We do not think that it's what we call a free pass for countries or companies to continue emitting and to then use carbon credits as a way out for themselves.

Hannah Beaulieu (1:57)

And some critics say international rules on carbon are far too complicated. But new, clearer regulation could be about to increase demand for carbon credits between nations and create more business opportunities.

Martin Hession (2:11)

We have delivered a tough standard, I fully admit that. And it was a strategic choice. Will countries use it?

Hannah Beaulieu (2:17)

That.

Martin Hession (2:17)

That is an open question.

Hannah Beaulieu (2:19)

So is the carbon market at a pivotal point in the push towards net zero, or is this a false start? That's all coming up on Business Daily from the BBC.

Renick Drysdale (2:32)

If you come in here, this is the glass house.

Hannah Beaulieu (2:35)

Oh, wow. It's very warm. It sort of feels like a swimming pool in here or something. What are we looking at?

Renick Drysdale (2:42)

Yeah, so this is. This is the glasshouse area. We've Got birch in front of us and then behind that we have two different types of willow. Scots pine, downy birch, silver birch. And all of these are growing in the controlled environment. The reason it feels like a swimming pool is because we have our own proprietary software that keeps the conditions inside the glass house optimal for native trees.

Hannah Beaulieu (3:09)

I'm at Acre, a nursery in Fife in the east of Scotland. The company is six years old and say they've designed a system to make growing trees more efficient, which CEO and founder Renick Drysdale is hoping is an attractive business proposition. How many trees are we looking at?

Renick Drysdale (3:26)

So in here at the moment, I would estimate there's about 2 million.

Hannah Beaulieu (3:30)

We're looking at 2 million trees.

Renick Drysdale (3:32)

Yeah, yeah, there's 2 million trees in this little space, which is very exciting. And it's one of the things we've been working on is trying to increase the amount of throughput you can get in these controlled environments. The unique challenge we have when it comes to native woodlands is that you have a variety of different species growing in the same environment and you also have no systems that have been developed specifically for that problem. Despite the fact that we need to grow an additional 1 trillion trees to.

Hannah Beaulieu (4:01)

2050, how much carbon can these trees capture?

Renick Drysdale (4:05)

So these trees could capture somewhere if for 2 million trees, you could capture somewhere between 400,000 and 600,000 tons over the course of a hundred year period. So that's the potential they have if they were planted in the right place.

Hannah Beaulieu (4:20)

When it comes to tackling global warming, countries are expected to take the lead as they set and enforce the rules to achieve climate change goals. Under the Paris agreement drafted 10 years ago, more than 200 nations agreed a series of measures designed to avoid some of the worst consequences of rising temperatures. World leaders pledged to try to prevent global temperatures rising by more than 1.5 degrees Celsius above those of the late 19th century, known as pre industrial levels. Some hope that carbon trading between nations could be a game changer in reducing emissions. Carbon trading and carbon markets are notoriously complex areas. So I've asked the BBC's environment correspondent, Matt McGrath to give us an overview.

Matt McGrath (5:03)

A wise and insightful economist. Is there any other kind? Once explained to me that solving the issue of global climate change was very simple. You just need to put a price on carbon. Well, that's easier said than done. But through carbon trading in carbon markets, the world has taken the first stumbling steps to arrest the rise in temperatures by turning greenhouse gases and reductions into trad units. With the efficiency of markets supposed to do the rest. Two major market approaches have evolved to tackle our warming climate. The largest of these are the government led compliance markets that sell or freely allocate carbon allowances to companies in carbon intensive industries like power generation and steel making. If businesses can keep their carbon output under the level of their allowances, they can sell the excess of on the open market. If they exceed their allowances, they have to buy credits to cover the shortfall. There's around 36 of these markets in various countries with the EU's Emissions Trading Scheme probably the best known. Overall, close to 20% of global emissions are covered in this way. The other main type are voluntary carbon markets which are self regulated and allow businesses to reduce their emissions by by purchasing carbon offsets from projects that avoid, reduce or remove carbon. The offsets are sometimes unkindly compared to the way that people in the Middle Ages could purchase an indulgence from their church to wash away their sins. These voluntary markets, although small, are expanding rapidly as governments put more pressure on businesses to cut carbon. Between 2020 and 2022, 2/3 of the world's largest corporations that have net zero targets were using carbon offsets to meet their goals. Voluntary markets offer a wide range of options, including renewable energy projects, reforestation or direct air capture of carbon among others. But they have run into big trouble as serious questions have arisen about their integrity. There's also been significant fraud associated with some projects with worthless carbon credits flooding some markets. On the plus side, the progress made under the Paris Climate Agreement is expected to see carbon trading boom between countries. After years of Discussions under Article 6 of the Paris Pact, countries agreed clear rules last year on how these trades would be authorized and regulated. Earlier this year, Switzerland and Norway finalized the first such deal for the trading of durable carbon removal credits between the countries. There have now been around 100 bilateral agreements signed for these type of trades. While many environmentalists worry that carbon offsetting is just a smokescreen that obscures rather than clarifies emissions reductions, it looks like carbon trading will grow in importance as countries struggle to reach net zero by the middle of this century.

Hannah Beaulieu (8:06)

Singapore is one of those countries getting involved and is working on agreements with other nations. The country's emissions represent 0.1% of global emissions, but the amount emitted from fuel combustion has been going up in the past 20 years. As a small, densely populated state with few natural resources, it could be difficult for Singapore to decarbonise, which is where carbon trading comes in. Pham Weiwei is the Director for Carbon Mitigation of the Ministry of trade and industry in Singapore.

Pham Weiwei (8:36)

To put simply, we work with countries that want international financing to come in to unlock carbon mitigation activities in their countries. They are not prepared to finance due to fiscal constraints or they find it too expensive. Now these mitigation outcomes are represented in the form of what we call carbon credits which represents reduction or removal of 1 metric tonne of carbon dioxide or its equivalent in greenhouse gas. Now, so far, Singapore has signed nine implementation agreements with various countries around the world, including in Asia, Africa and Latin America.

Hannah Beaulieu (9:12)

In Singapore, it's not the government which will fund the projects directly as the money comes from private investment.

Pham Weiwei (9:17)

We will sign the government to government agreements and it's the private sector that comes in to do project development. We set out our environmental integrity criteria and eligibility list containing a list of project types that we are prepared to accept. And this includes nature based projects, clean water supply projects, clean cooking technologies, green mobility waste, renewable energy. At the end of the day, when we cooperate with the other countries, we will first have to consider what they need in terms of priority sectors. They are looking to decarbonize that they want to use international finance and the needs of the countries are quite varied and so it's important to listen to their needs.

Hannah Beaulieu (9:56)

A criticism of this system is that it effectively outsources emissions from a high emitting country to a less industrialized one. I asked Wei if that was the case.

Pham Weiwei (10:05)

For Singapore, carbon credits is used as a last resort. So the priority is still to decarbonize and until you have fully exhausted all your means to do that, then you turn to carbon credits. So we do not think that it's what we call a free pass for countries or companies to continue emitting and to then use carbon credits as a way out for themselves.

Hannah Beaulieu (10:29)

You're listening to Business Daily on the BBC World Service. What do you think makes the perfect snack?

Matt McGrath (10:36)

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

Pham Weiwei (10:39)

Could you be more specific?

Matt McGrath (10:41)

When it's cravinient. Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just.

Hannah Beaulieu (10:49)

A second at am, pm. I'm seeing a pattern here.

Matt McGrath (10:51)

Well yeah, we're talking about what I.

Hannah Beaulieu (10:53)

Crave, which is anything from am, pm.

Matt McGrath (10:55)

What more could you want? Stop by AM PM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience ampm. Too much good stuff.

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Pham Weiwei (11:32)

Foreign.

Hannah Beaulieu (11:37)

I'm Hannah Bewley and today we're asking, is the carbon market heating up and how can businesses take advantage? In recent years, the carbon market has been shrinking as large investors withdrew. But this year, MSCI Carbon Markets research suggests that $10 billion was committed to creating credits in the first half of 2025. And that's more than three times as much in the same period as last year. Year. Back in Scotland, outside the glasshouse, the trees are hardening off. That's the technical term for getting used to the harsh Scottish weather. Renwick's company has yet to turn a profit, but he estimates they will break even in 2026. As well as tree sales, the company also does consultancy and asset management. It's hard to calculate how much planting a hectare of native woodland costs, but the estimate for the UK is between 8,000 and $15,000. Acre is trying to halve this cost through efficient solutions, right down to the shape of the root. So should we have a look at what, what these saplings look like?

Renick Drysdale (12:39)

Yeah. So we'll go over here and I'm just going to pull out one of the willow from the tray that, that we're standing in front of just here. And so you can see the root network here is just fantastic. They're ready to go. So they are extremely healthy, aiming out and down. When that gets planted in the ground, they are ready to grow immediately. But also they're much more resilient to drought. So longer, drier periods are becoming a bigger issue everywhere in the world. With this paper pot system, we can retain the moisture around the root network and that means that our trees are more resilient to the drier spells.

Hannah Beaulieu (13:15)

So what's the kind of attrition rate with these?

Renick Drysdale (13:18)

When we plant the trees on the hill, traditionally budgets account for a 30% failure. So 30% would die in by year three. And then typically you'll account for another 15% additional top up in year six to make sure you, you get the woodland going. Our system and we're seeing establishment rates that are as high as, as 98% across some species. And again, that that's a very significant cost saving because to go back in and plant a tree, a direct reference would be it costs 22p to plant a tree the first time around and about 45p to plant it a second time round.

Hannah Beaulieu (14:00)

So that's about 30 cents and 60 cents, say. And so is this ready to go then? Will this be planted soon?

Renick Drysdale (14:07)

That's saleable, yeah. So they'll be wrapped in the next month and sent to the hill.

Hannah Beaulieu (14:12)

Companies like Acre are keen to get going, but they're tied by the rules of where they're located globally. Most of this company's projects in the UK and abroad are currently arranged through the private sector. But Rennick says the new, clearer regulations and the growth of the international carbon market between countries could open the door for more opportunities. It's hopefully a departure from the often turbulent past of carbon markets. Dr. Inji Johnston is a researcher in net zero aligned offsetting at the University of Oxford.

Dr. Inji Johnston (14:42)

So carbon markets have famously been known as a bit of a wild west. And that's because really, for a long time there's been very limited, you know, oversight. In part that's due to the international nature of the market. So anyone is free to develop their own methodologies and whatnot. As long as there's a buyer, you know, they will be a seller on the other end. However, when you're talking about kind of using carbon markets as part of a formal system, there is a form of kind of, you know, UN oversight in that regard to kind of assess the methodology against some criteria that have been agreed upon by countries. But the real challenge is ensuring that those methodologies and those standards are actually upheld in practice. And we've seen a lot of instances where that has not happened for you.

Hannah Beaulieu (15:31)

Do the UN rules not go far enough?

Dr. Inji Johnston (15:35)

No. So the UN rules currently provide a flaw, but definitely not a ceiling of ambition and integrity. In fact, the UN at COP 29 last year put a bit of a caveat that just because they're providing some kind of services to oversee the trade in these mitigation outcomes, which are the forms of carbon credits, that they don't actually endorse the environmental integrity of them, these carbon markets have huge equity issues and, you know, implications. And so we need to be ensuring that domestically we're doing everything we can to reduce our emissions, that we're not trying to kind of offset them via these buying cheap carbon credits overseas and hoping that they are delivering what they say they're going to do. But equally, we can't shut out these kinds of vital projects that are supplying local communities with renewable energy or with sustainable livelihoods. But we need to make sure and question whether carbon credits are the right tool to achieve that end.

Hannah Beaulieu (16:35)

Dr. Inji Johnston, the chairman of the UN committee which is responsible for coming up with the new rules. Martin Hession told me his group has received criticism for making the regulations too stringent. He said the decisions are now in the hands of politicians.

Martin Hession (16:50)

We were asked to produce a mechanism that delivers for a net zero world and that's what we've done.

Hannah Beaulieu (16:59)

Now.

Martin Hession (16:59)

Is the world ready to head towards net zero? And that is a political question, not a technical question. We had delivered a tough standard of fully admit that and it was a strategic choice. Will countries use it? That is an open question. Right. Are countries going to be ambitious enough that this mechanism is used to a great degree. And that's something I'm afraid I can tell you.

Hannah Beaulieu (17:30)

A lot of people I've spoken to as part of my research for this program say the system isn't perfect, but it's what we've got. And solutions don't grow on trees or do they?

Renick Drysdale (17:43)

Trees here that were planted four or five years ago and they're coming away very nicely. So we can see some birch, we can see some rowan, some holly, some hawthorn, some oak. This is a mixed native woodland that has been registered for carbon.

Hannah Beaulieu (18:05)

Was this one of the first areas of woodland that you planted?

Renick Drysdale (18:08)

Yeah, this is some of the earliest woodland that we created. So we got some good feedback off this. We've since obviously we planted more trees last year than the whole of Northern Ireland and Wales combined as a company. So we've planted a lot more in different areas of the uk. But yeah, this is some of the early stuff, so it's nice to see it coming away.

Hannah Beaulieu (18:31)

And they're still relatively small, none of them taller than us. What will this look like in 20 years, say?

Renick Drysdale (18:39)

Yeah, so we're going into the kind of real growth phase for these, this particular woodland. So they are, as you say, about head height. Now as they get through kind of 25 years, 35 years, they will become more like the woodland down there, which is a mature woodland and you've got kind of 10 meter trees that are good girth and this is not particularly good ground either. So they're actually growing really well.

Hannah Beaulieu (19:09)

From a windy hillside on the east coast of Scotland. That's all from Business Daily from the BBC World Service. This episode was produced and presented by me, Hannah Beaulie. To listen to more episodes, just search for Business Daily wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

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