← Business Daily
Business Daily
Afterlife: The business of celebrity legacies
00:17:28
We explore the growing industry built around famous icons after their deaths
Loading summary
Transcript50 lines
- [00:00]
Jack Pirie
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk
- [00:06]
Sean Allsop
we face the greatest challenges of our time, challenges that test our limits. There is a place where we can find answers, where journeys break new ground and connections unlock opportunities. Where innovation can spark real change and our actions can push our world forward. Singapore, where business events can create lasting impact.
- [00:36]
Arnold Lozano
Today's episode is sponsored by Smart Travel,
- [00:39]
Sean Allsop
a podcast from NerdWallet.
- [00:41]
Arnold Lozano
You know that one friend who always finds the best travel deals, picks the right credit cards and somehow ends up
- [00:46]
Sean Allsop
in first class for the price of coach?
- [00:48]
Arnold Lozano
Smart Travel is like that friend, but in podcast form.
- [00:52]
Sean Allsop
NerdWallet's travel journalists sort out what's worth paying for. From lounge access to travel advisors to hotel loyalty programs, make your travel dollars work harder. Follow Smart Travel on your favorite podcast app. I'm Sean Allsop and welcome to Business Daily on the BBC World Service. Come in.
- [01:12]
Arnold Lozano
Yeah, this is.
- [01:14]
Jacqueline Fulton
Thank you.
- [01:15]
Sean Allsop
Officially, you should go in that other
- [01:16]
Arnold Lozano
door because there's a little sign in.
- [01:18]
Sean Allsop
I'm in a secret location where they're preparing a show for one of the biggest stars the world has ever seen. It's very dark, so keep mind your step.
- [01:27]
Jack Pirie
I can see no particular way.
- [01:31]
Arnold Lozano
Just carry on.
- [01:34]
Sean Allsop
It's a dark warehouse. There are many technicians around working away. And then a giant screen lights up. Yeah, you're gonna get some good moments. That's the start of it, isn't it?
- [01:51]
Jack Pirie
This is just a little transitional sequence.
- [01:56]
Sean Allsop
It's one like 72 that's.
- [01:57]
Jack Pirie
Granted you know Elvis quite well then.
- [02:00]
Sean Allsop
I know a wee bit. It's Elvis Presley in a way. You have never experienced him in a brand new show. But how is this possible? Elvis isn't in the building. In fact, he's dead. But that's not stopping him and others still bringing in millions after death. In this episode, I'm exploring the world of deceased celebrities and their estates and finding out how long after someone has died, the money can just keep rolling in. Firstly, what exactly are estates? You've probably heard the estates of famous stars, but what does that actually mean? In short, an estate refers to the people, usually family members, who inherit control over a celebrity's work. After they pass away, they manage the legal rights and finances tied to the artist's legacy. Estates make money in different ways. For musicians, it mostly comes from their songs, for actors, their films, and for painters, their artwork. But beyond the back catalogue, one of the most important things the states control is intellectual property rights. This means they have the power to approve or reject new projects based on the artist's Work shaping how their legacy lives on. And this rule means in most of the world, you need permission to use likeness of a celebrity. Every October, Forbes magazine publishes a list of the highest earning dead celebrities. In 2024, the top five earned over a billion dollars, with Michael Jackson topping the list, followed by Freddie Mercury, Dr. Seuss, and in fourth place, Elvis.
- [03:43]
Mark Roessler
My name's Mark Roessler. I'm the chairman, CEO and founder of CMG Worldwide. We're in our 45th year. My first client was the Elvis Presley Estate in 1981.
- [03:54]
Sean Allsop
Estates usually work with managing companies.
- [03:57]
Mark Roessler
People like Mark rosler represented about 3,000 entertainment, sports, music and historical personalities. The vast majority of them have been deceased. That's our business model. It's not uncommon for a famous personality, for let's call them the handlers, so to speak, to approach us within a month or two after someone passes away. Their family typically doesn't immediately think about, hey, how we can make money off them. They're more concerned about getting their, the estate in order. So that's typically what happens. And then it kind of goes from there. Put together 30,000 different programs for different clients since we started the business. And most of the uses are complementary because someone wants to use an Albert Einstein, for example, because they want to show his brilliance, his intelligence, show it in a positive way. So it's working with that company and, and working with the rights holders in terms of getting the final approval on what's done. We put together the opportunity, we run the terms, the requirements and so forth by the respective family members and they make the ultimate decision.
- [05:15]
Sean Allsop
Over the course of 40 years, the landscape has evolved and the money involved has certainly increased. I asked Mark how the demand had changed over time.
- [05:27]
Mark Roessler
Well, Sean, that's a great question. When we first started in the 80s, everything we did was like T shirts and posters. They were making postcards, prints, calendars, and you know, there's a Elvis collectible plate. And you know, it was all about products that, you know, you'd have their image on. So the Elvis Presley's of the world, the James Deans of the world, they weren't really as popular because there wasn't the ability to research that. All of that kind of changed in the 90s when the Internet came about and people started being able to really research. And as people learned about their stories, they wanted to know more about them.
- [06:13]
Sean Allsop
But what makes us so fascinated with these grave stars? Why do certain names like Bruce Lee, Marilyn Monroe and Bob Marley still remain relevant years after they're gone? To find out more I spoke with Jacqueline Fulton, a professor of sociology at the National University in San Diego, usa, who has written about our fascination with celebrity deaths and their posthumous careers.
- [06:38]
Jacqueline Fulton
So, you know, why do we like dead celebrities and have this connection to them? The way I formulated it is that they're intimate strangers. We feel like we know them. And, you know, why is that? Why do we feel like we know them? The most in demand celebrities are those that evoke strong emotional responses in their performances and their personal lives. So, you know, their music and our acting performances somehow speak to us. They represent things that are important to us that we can identify with. Their lives evoke emotion, identification and sympathy. Often, you know, the most beguiling dead celebrities, I think, are typically musicians. The most important ones are the ones who die young and violently. And that's what makes them tragic in the way that a death of Frank Sinatra is not. Frank Sinatra died, had a long life. He didn't die, you know, in his 30s or something. And this is important, too. The images we resurrect of people are youthful. You know, Elvis as a youthful person, Whitney Houston, you know, Michael Jackson even. We don't have Michael Jackson in his 50s or David Bowie at 67. We have them at their youthful best. And, you know, and those who die young, like Marilyn Monroe, I mean, they're. They're just there frozen for us, the idea of potential, you know, being cut off in the prime of your life is incredibly important. There's momentary celebrity deaths, you know, people who you just hear in the news that someone died, but they didn't have a resonance with people. It's in the news for day or so. People who ascended for a while. Like right now, Matthew Perry from France is making money his estate, because it's a more recent death. There's people, you know, who surface for a while, but there's the more lasting ones. And that's a really interesting subject. You know, why does Elvis speak to us still? Or Michael Jackson, you know, making $600 million of his Michael Jackson musical tour? I mean, what is it about those people? It's a combination of their fame, their appearance, the intrigue about their personal lives. We need these figures who are larger than life, huge on the screen, who have endless beauty, talent and charisma. We have a strong need for those figures.
- [09:15]
Arnold Lozano
I'm Arnold Lozano. I am director of the Chaplin office located in Paris.
- [09:21]
Sean Allsop
British actor and filmmaker Charlie Chaplin was one of the most famous figures of the 20th century. You may know him for his iconic tramp carrier character from Black and White SILENT MOVIES The Chaplin office in Paris, France, handles all the affairs related to Charlie's legacy and manages requests involving his image.
- [09:40]
Arnold Lozano
So we receive many requests without us having to go out and look for projects. And certain members of the Chaplin family don't really want us to go out seeking merchandising deals on our own, really. And if somebody wants to do a project, then we study it. And I send everything that's big or unusual to the Chaplin family for approval. I work under instructions from five of his eight children. So since we're responding to requests, it's really all sorts of things. But it's really important to the current generation of Chaplin family anyway to not. They call it fiddling with his work. As long as you're not inserting something inside his film or, you know, meddling with it, then when it just. It's deemed not respectful of his work that they. That they don't agree to it. There are some basic sort of rules, like we don't approve licenses, licensees that are in the industry of pharmaceuticals or gambling, or we try to stay away from religion and politics. You know, even if we think we know what Chaplin may have thought about, you know, certain issues nowadays, he's not here to speak for himself. It's quite a difficult tightrope act for us because on the one hand, we have to protect the. The work as much as possible. And we also have to try to spread it as far and wide as possible. And I think screenings with live orchestra are a good example of that. And it brings in lots of people to either discover Chaplin's work for the first time or rediscover it.
- [11:31]
Sean Allsop
There are certainly many ways to keep a legacy alive long after death, through the work produced during the celebrity's lifetime. But we've come a long way from reissued, repackaged re released. The speed of new technology means another opportunity has arisen. And estates are now asking, should we resurrect these dead celebrities? It's certainly something Arnold has been asked about Charlie Chaplin saying, you know, we
- [11:58]
Arnold Lozano
want to make whatever film in 3D. And the family have always said no to that. People have mentioned holograms, and it really depends on. On how it's done. I don't think they would necessarily say no to a hologram inside the Chaplin Museum in some sort of exhibition context or something. You know, it just can't be some horrid hologram of, you know, look alike, trying to sell, you know, with some sort of weird merchandise. It really has to be done in a. In a respectful Way of Chaplin's work.
- [12:33]
Sean Allsop
You're listening to Business Daily from the BBC World Service.
- [12:41]
Alex Kanchowitz
This dog salon operational excellence thanks to Genius from Global Payments Scheduling, Personalized checkouts, Instant absolutely genius.
- [12:52]
Sean Allsop
Big league reliability for any business. That's genius.
- [12:56]
Alex Kanchowitz
Hi, this is Alex Kanchowitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is, is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts,
- [13:33]
Sean Allsop
holograms, AI. These are now the murky waters we're navigating when it comes to using the likeness of deceased celebrities. And it's already something that's happening. You can watch Whitney Houston perform live in Las Vegas or hear Judy Garland narrate you an audiobook. It's all part of a growing trend, but it's met with mixed reception. Some say it's an exciting new opportunity, some say it's exploiting or just a bit weird. But I wanted to see myself, something new being made with a star of old. So okay, just have a little wander?
- [14:05]
Jack Pirie
Yeah, of course. Do you want to. We can just walk anywhere you want.
- [14:07]
Sean Allsop
I'm back at the Elvis show rehearsals in London in the UK with its director, Jack Pirie. It's called Elvis Evolution and it's an immersive experience being created to tell the story of Elvis. It's being produced by the company Layered reality utilizing cutting edge technology to, to bring his legacy to life in a way that's never been done before. How will people sort of experience this part?
- [14:31]
Jack Pirie
Across the whole show? We have a number of different sequences that make up this one sprawling story. And in some sequences you are physically walking through an environment, in others you're seated. And in this sequence you'll be seated. So this will happen in 360 around you as you're seated and you experience sun records and 1950s Memphis. So this is taking you through the end of the 1950s as like culture transformed as a result of rock and roll. You're going to have live performers that are going to be behind, so you'll be out of here. But live performers are going to interact with this Content, so you'll get this like three dimensional effect where it feels like they're living in these three dimensional environments. Andrew, who founded Layered Reality, he had been talking to EPA of the estate, and he was really excited about the idea of using Elvis as the roots for an immersive show to kind of take you in the Elvis story. But I think what the immersive medium does, it gives you an opportunity to take a new perspective on the story. So rather than hearing the story about how Elvis grew up in Mississippi in the 1940s and then ended up in Memphis in the 1950s, what if we could actually physically transport you to those places? So what if we could take you in as an example of what you're seeing in front of you here? What if we could take you inside Sun Records, let you experience that recording session as if it was happening around you?
- [15:49]
Sean Allsop
Now, when you put this show sort together, is that basically just discussions with the estate?
- [15:53]
Jack Pirie
I think it's a couple of things. I think, firstly, we're obviously working really closely with the estate, so we've been over to the archives. I spent time in the archives. You can see everything Elvis ever owned is in a huge storage facility, which is like this incredible place to go and see. They've got thousands of images and videos. So for us to start, it was about like, ingesting as much as we could to make sure that what we then do is faithful and authentic. I think the other thing is then just research and time. You know, we've been working on this for two and a half years now, me and Jess, my co writer, when we started a lot of the beginning stages, was just trying to soak in as much as we possibly could. I think at the end of the day, like, I feel strongly for myself that it's important that whatever we create is something that feels like, authentic. Like there's no Elvis doing something. He didn't do it. In this show, you know, we are. We are recreating moments that we know happened in different ways and trying to. You know, I think there's a. There's a phrase that the estate have which is kind of like, what would Elvis do? And I think we've tried to ingest a little bit of that approach too, which is like, think about what is it Elvis loved and what is the theme of the Elvis story, which for me is this theme of the communal music experience.
- [16:53]
Sean Allsop
Do you think as the technology goes on and there's more innovative thinking, there's going to be even more way to experience artists that no Longer here in sort of different sort of ways.
- [17:02]
Jack Pirie
I think it depends on the property as to like or the story as to like, what is the best medium for it. So some stories, I think, can be told best in film, some can be sold best in theatre, some can be told best in a book. The reason something like this, and perhaps other deceased musicians work really well, I think, in this format, is because how else can you come together with people in a live environment and actually experience it? You know, if musicians are live, you can go and see them play a gig. How do you do it if that's not the case? Like, in the end, it's all about, you know, Elvis was about sharing music with the fans and letting you experience it in an environment together. So in answer to your question, are we going to see more of these things? Yeah, I think we will. I think they'll come in all shapes and sizes. You know, Elvis is one story. You could tell any story. You know, you could. You could do a, you know, a movie franchise in this. In this format, you could do musical franchise. You can do anything. But I think. I think it's about asking, like, what? Why is this the right medium for that story? And that's where finding the right fit, I think, is the most important thing.
- [18:00]
Sean Allsop
It was interesting to see what's possible with the stars of the past. But celebrities living are now starting to explore what will happen to their image and work after their death. Here's Jacqueline Dean from the National University in San Diego.
- [18:14]
Jacqueline Fulton
Again, this is hugely profitable. You know, they're moving around, they're even moving on stages as holograms. Is this something that they would have wanted? Celebrities, I think, are becoming canny about their legacies and also monetizing their legacies for their heirs. So they can allow their heirs, or whoever owns their rights, to do things with their image and create new performances of them for the future. So they will have eternal life as long as there's interest in them.
- [18:50]
Sean Allsop
Estates manager Mark Rosler agrees.
- [18:53]
Mark Roessler
You know, celebrities have become in tune to the fact that they have these valuable intellectual property rights that need to be addressed in some way.
- [19:03]
Sean Allsop
It's a murky world. On one hand, we're preserving the legacies of those we love in exciting new ways. On the other, we might be crossing a line into something that's exploitive. But as technology continues to evolve, we'll face more decisions over what we choose to buy from those in the past. I'm Sean Allsop and this has been Business Daily for the BBC World Service.
- [19:31]
Alex Kanchowitz
Hi. This is Alex Kanchwitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how to how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts.