Podcast Summary: Business Daily Meets – The Women of Heavy Industry

Host: Sam Fenwick, BBC World Service
Date: March 7, 2025

Overview

This special episode of Business Daily spotlights three trailblazing women who have broken into the boardrooms of some of the world’s most traditionally male-dominated industries: steel, construction, and oil & gas. Host Sam Fenwick explores their journeys, the cultural and structural challenges they have faced, and the broader societal and policy issues still impeding gender equality at the highest levels of business.

Key Guests

• Anna Maresque Danieli – CEO and Vice Chairman of an Italian global steel company, Danieli
• Carol Massave – Managing Director and founder of Kapoor Construction, Johannesburg, South Africa
• Patti Eade – Senior executive in oil & gas and construction/infrastructure, based in Dubai, UAE

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Cultural and Structural Barriers

Gender Gap in Heavy Industries

• Anna explains the cultural roots of gender disparity in Italian industry:
  • “We are a Christian country, a Catholic country and culturally high position are for men.” (01:30)
  • Points to lack of societal recognition for the dual role women often play as career professionals and primary caregivers. (03:52, 04:57)
• Host Sam Fenwick notes:
  • Only 14% of senior management worldwide in steel are women; under 10% at the board level. (03:27)

Personal Stories of Pushing Boundaries

• Carol describes breaking out of a restrictive engineering role to found her own construction firm:
  • “I felt like there were limitations to what I can achieve...I could branch out on my own and form my own business...at a very tender age of 24 to 25.” (05:24)
  • Kapoor Construction is now 100% female-owned and committed to uplifting women. (09:41)
• Patti recounts being assumed to be an assistant rather than a senior executive in oil & gas negotiations:
  • “Assumptions made as I’m the assistant of the boss coming in to negotiate an agreement.” (02:16)
  • She faced skepticism and outright exclusion upon entering the UAE oil sector in 2008. (06:24)

2. Societal Roles, Family Responsibilities, and Competitiveness

• Anna describes the practical implications of family expectations:
  • “80% of the permits for children or our elderly loved ones are taken by women because the family responsibility falls on them.” (08:25)
• When pressed by Sam Fenwick, Anna admits:
  • “As a reality,” she would be more likely to hire a man than a woman when skills are otherwise equal, because caregiving expectations fall on women. (09:28)
• Carol and Patti push back, arguing for female excellence and efficiency regardless of family demands:
  • Patti: “I find myself to be 100 times more efficient than most men in the office....It doesn’t mean if it’s a man that necessarily they have a higher yield or performance.” (10:26)

Call for Policy and Societal Change

• Anna advocates for state intervention:
  • “I would consider it more than appropriate for the government to take care of it. That’s why I’m saying that I want governments to recognize the role of mothers in society.” (11:01)

3. Laws vs. Reality

• Sam reviews recent legal progress:
  • Italy: Equal opportunities code (2006), Equal pay laws (2021); UAE: Equal pay laws (2018), Gender Balance Council (2015); South Africa: Constitutional equality and anti-discrimination. (13:15)
• Carol reflects, however, that cultural change is slower and more important than legal change:
  • “It’s often more challenging to change deep seated cultural perceptions about women than to change the law.” (13:15)

4. Facing Stereotypes and Misconceptions

• Carol shares a moment when her achievements were undermined by the assumption her father’s wealth or status was responsible:
  • “He says to me, ‘Oh, I thought your father was rich’...But people thinking that success came because my father is...a certain figure really annoys me.” (14:20)
• Anna echoes this, highlighting how people often assume her achievements are owed to her father, not her capabilities:
  • “If somebody don’t know me, first of all they write an email writing Mr. Mariski absolutely is normal…They tell me, ‘Nice car, is it your father’s?’ It’s like, no, I bought it myself with my work.” (15:31)
• Both cite the emotional cost of these assumptions and the heavier burden women carry to prove themselves, especially as mothers:
  • Anna: “The thing that has annoyed me the most is to take away time from my kids because I have to demonstrate that a mother can be as competitive as a man. That is the worst that is happening to me.” (16:16)
  • Patti: Sharing the personal societal pressure and guilt mothers face; finds strength and pride when her daughters see her as a role model. (16:35)

5. Power of Conversation and Community

• Sam asks about the risk of being seen as complaining when discussing these struggles.
• Carol emphasizes the importance of voice:
  • “We only know how our shoes feel...we should be able to talk about how it feels being in our shoes. And if it will take us talking about it for them to act up and actually change their ways, then it’s okay.” (17:32)
• Patti notes that silence breeds isolation and undermines confidence, so shared stories are vital for awareness and mentorship:
  • “This is where awareness starts. These chats, these discussions, they reach other women…No one is complaining here. We are just discussing sharing our experience, lessons learned and so on.” (18:04)
• Anna is emphatic about her responsibility to continue the conversation:
  • “Every small step I managed to take in this direction will be one less step for my daughter and all the daughters of our country to struggle with. So absolutely let’s do it. I’m at your completely disposal.” (18:53)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Anna Maresque Danieli:

  • “Italy ranked 79th in the global gender gap index. Why? Because culturally high position are for men.” (03:52)
  • “The thing that has annoyed me the most is to take away time from my kids because I have to demonstrate that a mother can be as competitive as a man.” (16:16)
  • “Every small step I managed to take…will be one less step for my daughter and all the daughters of our country to struggle with.” (18:53)

• Carol Massave:

  • “I didn’t have anyone to pave way for me…so that is what I do and I’m very passionate about that.” (09:41)
  • “People thinking that success came because my father is a certain figure really annoys me.” (14:20)
  • “We should be able to talk about how it feels being in our shoes.” (17:32)

• Patti Eade:

  • “I find myself to be 100 times more efficient than most men in the office…It doesn’t mean if it’s a man that necessarily they have a higher yield.” (10:26)
  • “This is where awareness starts. These chats…reach other women…No one is complaining. We are just discussing.” (18:04)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Overview – 01:09
• Anna: The Reality for Women Leaders in Steel – 03:08, 03:52
• Carol: South Africa’s Construction Industry – Starting Out – 05:24
• Patti: Entering Oil & Gas in the Middle East – 06:24
• Discussion: Family Responsibility & Hiring Decisions – 08:25–09:32
• On Supporting Women and Efficiency – 09:41–10:26
• Societal Change Requires Policy – 11:01–12:04
• Legal Changes and Cultural Change – 13:15
• Facing Stereotypes – 14:20–15:31
• Emotional Cost & Motherhood – 16:16–16:35
• Talking About Barriers – 17:32–18:53

Conclusion

Through powerful testimony and honest debate, this episode highlights the persistence of deep-rooted cultural and societal biases against women in heavy industry—obstacles that endure even as legal reforms advance. The guests agree: progress for women is real, but slow and fraught with contradiction, and open, ongoing conversations—at home, in boardrooms, and in the media—are essential for the next generation of women in business.