Business Daily meets: The women of heavy industry

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Business Daily Meets – The Women of Heavy Industry

Host: Sam Fenwick, BBC World Service
Date: March 7, 2025

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Overview

This special episode of Business Daily spotlights three trailblazing women who have broken into the boardrooms of some of the world’s most traditionally male-dominated industries: steel, construction, and oil & gas. Host Sam Fenwick explores their journeys, the cultural and structural challenges they have faced, and the broader societal and policy issues still impeding gender equality at the highest levels of business.

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Key Guests

• Anna Maresque Danieli – CEO and Vice Chairman of an Italian global steel company, Danieli
• Carol Massave – Managing Director and founder of Kapoor Construction, Johannesburg, South Africa
• Patti Eade – Senior executive in oil & gas and construction/infrastructure, based in Dubai, UAE

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Cultural and Structural Barriers

Gender Gap in Heavy Industries

• Anna explains the cultural roots of gender disparity in Italian industry:
  • “We are a Christian country, a Catholic country and culturally high position are for men.” (01:30)
  • Points to lack of societal recognition for the dual role women often play as career professionals and primary caregivers. (03:52, 04:57)
• Host Sam Fenwick notes:
  • Only 14% of senior management worldwide in steel are women; under 10% at the board level. (03:27)

Personal Stories of Pushing Boundaries

• Carol describes breaking out of a restrictive engineering role to found her own construction firm:
  • “I felt like there were limitations to what I can achieve...I could branch out on my own and form my own business...at a very tender age of 24 to 25.” (05:24)
  • Kapoor Construction is now 100% female-owned and committed to uplifting women. (09:41)
• Patti recounts being assumed to be an assistant rather than a senior executive in oil & gas negotiations:
  • “Assumptions made as I’m the assistant of the boss coming in to negotiate an agreement.” (02:16)
  • She faced skepticism and outright exclusion upon entering the UAE oil sector in 2008. (06:24)

2. Societal Roles, Family Responsibilities, and Competitiveness

• Anna describes the practical implications of family expectations:
  • “80% of the permits for children or our elderly loved ones are taken by women because the family responsibility falls on them.” (08:25)
• When pressed by Sam Fenwick, Anna admits:
  • “As a reality,” she would be more likely to hire a man than a woman when skills are otherwise equal, because caregiving expectations fall on women. (09:28)
• Carol and Patti push back, arguing for female excellence and efficiency regardless of family demands:
  • Patti: “I find myself to be 100 times more efficient than most men in the office....It doesn’t mean if it’s a man that necessarily they have a higher yield or performance.” (10:26)

Call for Policy and Societal Change

• Anna advocates for state intervention:
  • “I would consider it more than appropriate for the government to take care of it. That’s why I’m saying that I want governments to recognize the role of mothers in society.” (11:01)

3. Laws vs. Reality

• Sam reviews recent legal progress:
  • Italy: Equal opportunities code (2006), Equal pay laws (2021); UAE: Equal pay laws (2018), Gender Balance Council (2015); South Africa: Constitutional equality and anti-discrimination. (13:15)
• Carol reflects, however, that cultural change is slower and more important than legal change:
  • “It’s often more challenging to change deep seated cultural perceptions about women than to change the law.” (13:15)

4. Facing Stereotypes and Misconceptions

• Carol shares a moment when her achievements were undermined by the assumption her father’s wealth or status was responsible:
  • “He says to me, ‘Oh, I thought your father was rich’...But people thinking that success came because my father is...a certain figure really annoys me.” (14:20)
• Anna echoes this, highlighting how people often assume her achievements are owed to her father, not her capabilities:
  • “If somebody don’t know me, first of all they write an email writing Mr. Mariski absolutely is normal…They tell me, ‘Nice car, is it your father’s?’ It’s like, no, I bought it myself with my work.” (15:31)
• Both cite the emotional cost of these assumptions and the heavier burden women carry to prove themselves, especially as mothers:
  • Anna: “The thing that has annoyed me the most is to take away time from my kids because I have to demonstrate that a mother can be as competitive as a man. That is the worst that is happening to me.” (16:16)
  • Patti: Sharing the personal societal pressure and guilt mothers face; finds strength and pride when her daughters see her as a role model. (16:35)

5. Power of Conversation and Community

• Sam asks about the risk of being seen as complaining when discussing these struggles.
• Carol emphasizes the importance of voice:
  • “We only know how our shoes feel...we should be able to talk about how it feels being in our shoes. And if it will take us talking about it for them to act up and actually change their ways, then it’s okay.” (17:32)
• Patti notes that silence breeds isolation and undermines confidence, so shared stories are vital for awareness and mentorship:
  • “This is where awareness starts. These chats, these discussions, they reach other women…No one is complaining here. We are just discussing sharing our experience, lessons learned and so on.” (18:04)
• Anna is emphatic about her responsibility to continue the conversation:
  • “Every small step I managed to take in this direction will be one less step for my daughter and all the daughters of our country to struggle with. So absolutely let’s do it. I’m at your completely disposal.” (18:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Anna Maresque Danieli:

  • “Italy ranked 79th in the global gender gap index. Why? Because culturally high position are for men.” (03:52)
  • “The thing that has annoyed me the most is to take away time from my kids because I have to demonstrate that a mother can be as competitive as a man.” (16:16)
  • “Every small step I managed to take…will be one less step for my daughter and all the daughters of our country to struggle with.” (18:53)

• Carol Massave:

  • “I didn’t have anyone to pave way for me…so that is what I do and I’m very passionate about that.” (09:41)
  • “People thinking that success came because my father is a certain figure really annoys me.” (14:20)
  • “We should be able to talk about how it feels being in our shoes.” (17:32)

• Patti Eade:

  • “I find myself to be 100 times more efficient than most men in the office…It doesn’t mean if it’s a man that necessarily they have a higher yield.” (10:26)
  • “This is where awareness starts. These chats…reach other women…No one is complaining. We are just discussing.” (18:04)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Overview – 01:09
• Anna: The Reality for Women Leaders in Steel – 03:08, 03:52
• Carol: South Africa’s Construction Industry – Starting Out – 05:24
• Patti: Entering Oil & Gas in the Middle East – 06:24
• Discussion: Family Responsibility & Hiring Decisions – 08:25–09:32
• On Supporting Women and Efficiency – 09:41–10:26
• Societal Change Requires Policy – 11:01–12:04
• Legal Changes and Cultural Change – 13:15
• Facing Stereotypes – 14:20–15:31
• Emotional Cost & Motherhood – 16:16–16:35
• Talking About Barriers – 17:32–18:53

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Conclusion

Through powerful testimony and honest debate, this episode highlights the persistence of deep-rooted cultural and societal biases against women in heavy industry—obstacles that endure even as legal reforms advance. The guests agree: progress for women is real, but slow and fraught with contradiction, and open, ongoing conversations—at home, in boardrooms, and in the media—are essential for the next generation of women in business.

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Transcript

[A]

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[C]

Hello and welcome to Business Daily meets from the BBC World Service. I'm Sam Fenwick. Today we meet three remarkable women who have ascended to the boardroom in industries known for their macho culture. First we meet Anna Maresque Danieli, the CEO of a global steel company who discusses leading in a male dominated environment.

[E]

The gender gap is a significant issue. Why? First of all, because we are a Christian country, a Catholic country and culturally high position are for men.

[C]

Carol Moussavey shares her story of launching a construction business in Johannesburg. Her company, which is 100% female owned island, is paving the way for women.

[F]

In the industry just like any other young girl out there, out to explore what they can be and achieve in life. When I chose the route of engineering, I wanted to prove to myself that engineering was just not for men.

[C]

And finally we meet Patti Eade, who has built a successful career in the Middle East's oil and gas industry.

[D]

Assumptions made as I'm the assistant of the boss coming in to negotiate an agreement.

[C]

International Women's Day has been observed for over a century, yet many challenges continue to hinder women's advancement. Today on Business Daily, we'll explore the reasons behind these persistent issues and discuss potential solutions to help women and girls achieve their career aspirations. So let's get to know our guests. Anna Maresche Danieli is one of the few top female executives in the steel industry. She's vice chairman of the steel making division at a major Italian engineering company, Danielli. The company was founded by her grandfather in 1914, but Anna's not the first woman to hold the post of chairman.

[E]

I'm actually the fourth generation of the Danielli family. It passed through my father. He really wanted to have a son, but he had four daughters, daughters. So the company has been given to my mother, who was the elder.

[C]

And whilst your company has women at the top, that doesn't represent the industry that you work in, does it? Globally. So as of 2021, women represented about 14% of senior management positions in the global steel industry. Less than 10% of board positions in major steel companies were held by women. So you are one of a very small number.

[E]

I know. Yes, the gender gap is a significant issue. Last year, Italy ranked 79th in the global gender gap index between Zambia and Ethiopia. Why? First of all, because we are a Christian country, a Catholic country, and culturally high position are for men. Secondly, I think that Italy is not recognizing the rule of a mother. I have been struggling all my life to compete with men who generally do not have the responsibility of raising and educating children, but rather of providing them financially. I have always had both responsibilities and had to take much more time away from my family that I would have liked to stay one step ahead and to prove that I fully deserve to be in the position I am in.

[C]

Let's welcome Carol Massave into the conversation. Now she's the managing director of Kapoor Construction. Carol joins us from Johannesburg in South Africa where she founded her construction company over a decade ago. Now, she met, made the bold move to start Kapoor after feeling constrained in her engineering role at a larger firm. Today, Kapoor thrives as a hundred percent female owned enterprise.

[F]

So when I was working, I felt like there were limitations to what I can achieve and to how far I can go in that space. And as a result, you know, with the limitations that I was met with, I felt that I could do it, you know, I could actually branch out on my own and form my own business or my company company, which is what I did at a very tender age of 24 to 25. And I must say I do not regret doing that. Yes, there were challenges at first, but I have overcome so much of those challenges. Yeah.

[C]

And Patti E. Joins us now from Dubai. Now, up until now, the majority of Patti's career has been in the Middle east oil and gas industry. Recently she joined Innovo Group which specializes in construction and infrastructure. Patti, tell us how you've dealt with traditional gender roles and cultural perceptions which are challenging in all areas of the world, but particularly in the Middle East.

[D]

Well, the oil and gas industry is quite Difficult, I think, as we all know, even more so as a female trying to make it. And this was about 17, 18 years ago when I landed in the UAE from Canada. When I landed in Dubai in 2008, there weren't many women in oil and gas at the time. And walking into a boardroom to give a presentation was difficult. To get the attendees attention was difficult. So I quickly realized that, okay, now we have to play with the big boys. And what does that mean? Well, it means I have to be more confident, I have to be more ready. I have to have all the tools on my side when I'm dealing with this bunch of people.

[C]

Do you think that was more difficult for you in the uae where there are traditional gender roles?

[D]

Initially, yes, absolutely. The industry itself was not used to having women more so in the uae, of course. But today I would say that the UAE is at a much better place, much different. The biggest enemy of women making it is women's themselves. Sometimes. Sometimes, yeah, of course the circumstances and the other side doesn't necessarily help. Sometimes.

[F]

Most of the time we do restrict ourselves, not that we want to. Just like what Petty was saying. You know, you get into a business and you want to enforce changes and sometimes you get a little bit scared because you're not too sure if you will get support from the male counterparts. And sometimes it's a matter of am I even sure myself if I want to do this? So we do limit ourselves sometimes.

[E]

I completely agree what has been told. But then on the other side, being a company person, let's say if I'm faced with hiring a candidate and in front of me I have two candidates of opposite sexes with 100% equal skills. I can only evaluate how a man's work has a higher yield compared to a woman's. In our company, 80% of the permits for children or our elderly loved ones, let's say, are taken by women because the family responsibility falls on them.

[C]

So are you saying that if you had a woman and a man that was sat in front of you, they've both got the same qualifications, they're both completely qualified for the job, you would give it to the man because the woman might have to look after the children or their elderly parents? Is that the reality?

[E]

Yeah, yeah, as a reality. As a reality.

[C]

Carol, you run a construction firm which is wholly owned by women. What do you make of what Anna has said?

[F]

Maybe in her field it might be like that. My reason for having an all women office is because I want to uplift women. Because when I started I didn't have anyone to pave way for me. I had to fend for myself. You know, I had to look out for myself. I had to fight for myself. And this is me fighting from the tea lady all the way up to my boss. So that is what I do and I'm very passionate about that. If it's one thing that every day when I wake up and I go to bed is to uplift women, I really want to do that every day of my life. Absolutely.

[D]

This comes back to my initial point. Sometimes we are unfortunately our own enemies.

[F]

That's true.

[D]

Now, for example, I have many special cases. Elderly parent, ill sister, children, partner. You name it, it's a full package. However, I find myself to be 100 times more efficient than most men in the office. I ask for something and somehow it never gets done. When I do it, it gets done within 10 minutes. It doesn't mean if it's a man that necessarily they have a higher yield or performance because they don't have to worry about these issues.

[E]

Can I add something? Because I really want to push women into increasingly powerful rule, but I'm saying I cannot ignore competitiveness because we are a worldwide. And the competitiveness is the reason why I can give salary to both women and men, to families. So here we are talking about basic constitutional rights. So I would consider it more than appropriate for the government to take care of it. That's why I'm saying that I want governments to recognize rule of mothers in society.

[C]

I understand. And so in terms of the kind of cultural changes that have to happen so that women don't always have to be the go to carer, that can't. What you're saying is that can't happen in business. That has to happen in the wider society, possibly through government intervention through policy.

[E]

That is my point.

[C]

You're listening to Business Daily from the BBC World Service.

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[C]

Today we're talking to three women who have reached the boardroom in the traditionally male dominated industries of oil and gas, steel and construction. While recent laws have been introduced to make their professional journeys easier, challenges still remain. In Italy, the National Code of Equal opportunities, introduced in 2006, promotes equal opportunities between women and men across ethical, social, economic, civil and political rights. Additionally, equal pay laws were implemented in 2021. The UAE has had equal pay laws since 2018. And the Gender Balance Council introduced in 2015, which promotes gender balance in leadership positions and integrates gender into policies and programs. In South Africa, the constitution guarantees the right to equality and explicitly prohibits discrimination based on gender. But as Carol explains, it's often more challenging to change deep seated cultural perceptions about women than to change the law.

[F]

I think what has annoyed me most, and I'm going to talk about a very recent chat I had with a friend of mine, a male friend of mine, and he says to me, oh, I thought your father was rich. I was like, excuse me. And then he goes on to say, well, I have heard that for you to get as far as you have gone is because your father used to give you handouts. I was so shocked, you know, because to start with, my father is not even in the industry where I operate in to which I went on to say to him that, listen, I have plowed my way up until this far, you know, and yes, I've had help. I've had people supporting me, strangers supporting me, people who've given me opportunities. But this should not boil down to what my dad is or what he has done. Fair enough, he has taken me to school. But that is as far as he went. He's a supportive father. I'm grateful for him. But people thinking that success came because my father is in a or is a certain figure in the community really annoys me.

[C]

Anna, you work in a family business. Have you come across a bit of that as well?

[E]

Yeah, absolutely. It's not if somebody don't know me, first of all, they write an email writing Mr. Mariski absolutely is normal. That for me is absolutely normal. So Carol, I completely understand is the same. Or if I go to take gas at the gas station, they tell me nice Car is of your father. It's like, no, I bought it myself with my work is completely the same. And that is cultural problem. That is a discrimination, which is coming from stereotypes we have to change with our kids.

[C]

First of all, is that the thing that annoys you the most, Anna?

[E]

No, the thing that has annoyed me the most is to take away time from my kids because I have to demonstrate that a mother can be as competitive as a man. That is the worst that is happening to me.

[D]

The guilt from society about, oh my goodness, your kids are quite young and you have them in nursery and oh, your kids go to school in a school bus. Yes. So there's a lot of assumptions made about our character, about our capability, whatever term you want to use. That used to annoy me quite a lot until one day my daughters looked at me and said, don't worry mommy, we know you're the boss and we love it.

[C]

I just want to ask one final question. Do you feel that conversations like the one that we're having now are helpful? Could women possibly come across as victims? That there is a bit of self pity? Should we not talk about these limitations?

[F]

I strongly feel we should talk about everything. Yes, to the men it comes off as if we are always crying or we want to be pitted or things like that. We only know how our shoes feel. And as such we should be able to talk about how it feels being in our shoes. And if it will take us talking about it for them to act up and actually change their ways, then it's okay. We should be speaking about this all the time. I strongly believe this should be in discussion rooms all the time.

[D]

Yes, I absolutely agree we need to talk about these things. This is where awareness starts. These chats, these discussions, they reach other women. Other women might be thinking along the same lines, might have the same challenges or worries, but yet they don't discuss them with anyone. So they keep it inside. This affects self confidence and so awareness starts with people discussing the issues at hand. No one is complaining here. We are just discussing sharing our experience, lessons learned and so on. And if other women would like to reach out and if we can help, of course we'll help.

[C]

Anna, do you think conversations like this can be helpful for changing society's perceptions of women in Italy?

[F]

Absolutely.

[E]

And thanks, actually, thank you very much, Sam, for that. And I will never stop doing so speaking about this because every small step I managed to take in this direction will be one less step for my daughter and all the daughters of our country to struggle with. So absolutely let's do it. I'm at your completely disposal.

[C]

Great.

[F]

Yes.

[C]

That's all for this edition of Business Daily Meets. My thanks to Anna Maresque, Danieli, Patty Eade and Carol Massave. If you'd like to join in the conversation about how women get ahead of in business, email us. Business dailybc.co.uk.