Business Daily meets: Tim Brown, co-founder of Allbirds

Summary

Business Daily: Tim Brown, Co-founder of Allbirds

BBC World Service | November 7, 2025
Host: Sam Fenwick
Guest: Tim Brown

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Episode Overview

This episode of Business Daily meets profiles Tim Brown, the co-founder of sustainable footwear brand Allbirds and a former New Zealand footballer. Host Sam Fenwick explores Brown’s unconventional path from sporting success to entrepreneurial highs and lows, delving into Allbirds’ origins, its sustainability mission, growing pains, and the broader challenges of global business in a shifting economic landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life: Aspirations and Sporting Career (02:07–05:54)

• Tim Brown grew up in Wellington, New Zealand, with aspirations both in football and shoe design.
• Football was not the dominant sport in New Zealand; rugby was prioritized, making his path unconventional.
• Earned a scholarship to the University of Cincinnati at age 17, kickstarting his football career.
  • "Soccer was the one that really connected for me and I just caught the bug and I've had it really ever since." (Tim Brown, 02:38)
• Faced setbacks in pursuing a professional career, including failed UK trials, but secured a last-minute contract that led to playing in the Australian A-League and participating in the 2010 World Cup squad.

2. Transition to Design and Entrepreneurship (03:33–07:44)

• Parallel to his sports career, Tim studied architecture and design, fostering his other passion.
• Became increasingly interested in the global decline of New Zealand’s wool industry and the overuse of synthetic materials in footwear.
  • "It started with a design point of view about the products that I was getting and the belief that there was an opportunity to do something simple with natural fibers and in this particular case, merino wool." (Tim Brown, 05:25)
• Decision to retire from football came after missing out on the World Cup Finals due to injury and a sense of having gone as far as possible in his playing career.
• Returned to study international management at LSE; describes the grad school experience as rewarding but lonely.
• Life-changing entrepreneurship class at Northwestern:
  • "I took an entrepreneurship class...And it changed my life." (Tim Brown, 06:56)
  • Professor Carter Cast, unimpressed by Brown’s early shoe idea, challenged him to put it on Kickstarter—thinking it would fail and Brown could move on.

3. The Kickstarter Launch and Entering the Shoe Business (07:44–10:57)

• Against expectations, the campaign succeeded:
  • "In four days, we sold $125,000 worth of wool shoes. And it was the start of this whole journey." (Tim Brown, 07:58)
• Brown had to rapidly solve production and fulfillment, finding partners in Portugal—highlighting the complexity of making shoes, especially with a new material.
  • "Making shoes with a material that has never been used before is...foolhardy." (Tim Brown, 10:57)
• If he had known how hard the process would be, he says he might never have started.

4. Partnership and Allbirds' Explosive Growth (11:30–13:16)

• After initial Kickstarter struggles, Brown recruited Joey Zwillinger, a customer with biotech expertise, as co-founder.
• Moved to San Francisco, rebranded as Allbirds, and relaunched in 2016.
  • "We got to work in sort of classic early stage startup fashion out of his mother in law's house..." (Tim Brown, 11:48)
• The brand’s minimalist, sustainable design resonated with a new consumer mindset.
  • "We hit a moment and with some good luck and a little bit of a vision for what it could be, and it just took off..." (Tim Brown, 12:29)
• Allbirds opened its first store in San Francisco in 2017 and quickly expanded globally.

5. Sustainability, Impact, and Materials Innovation (13:16–15:40)

• Allbirds started with merino wool, then added eucalyptus fiber, focusing on moving away from synthetic, oil-derived materials.
  • "We started to realize, oh my gosh, this whole industry has become addicted to cheap synthetic materials that are derived from barrels of oil." (Tim Brown, 13:35)
• Efforts to reduce the company’s carbon footprint—now 60% lower than average, with aspirations for net zero.
  • "If we can put someone on the moon, we can do this if we commit to it." (Tim Brown, 14:55)
• Brown notes that “sustainability” is a broad term and must be measured systematically (via carbon footprint).

6. Challenges of Manufacturing and Global Supply Chains (15:40–17:46)

• Most Allbirds shoes are made in Vietnam and South Korea, even though the wool is sourced from New Zealand.
• Manufacturing closer to home is impractical due to entrenched supply chains and lack of local infrastructure.
  • "People want ice cream in this moment, they want this to be easy and simple… And it's complicated." (Tim Brown, 15:55)
• The company must balance environmental aspirations with economic realities and industry constraints.

7. Business Trials and Resilience (17:46–20:27)

• Allbirds has faced significant turbulence post-IPO, including a 90% drop in share price and a warning from NASDAQ.
• New leadership and restructuring point to a brand in transition.
• Brown likens these experiences to sporting life—letting the “season” play out, embracing long-term thinking.
  • "Sport teaches you one thing, you can play really well and lose the game, play really poorly, and sometimes win..." (Tim Brown, 17:46)
• Shares parable of the farmer—the unpredictability of good and bad fortune, the importance of perseverance and vision.
  • "It's only in the fullness of time can you look back and really evaluate what was the right thing." (Tim Brown, 19:11)

8. Geopolitics & Trade Pressures (18:45–20:27)

• Recent US tariff threats on imports from Vietnam (up to 46%, reduced to 20% after negotiation) illustrate the unpredictability of global commerce.
• Tim underscores that global business always presents new hurdles.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On creative confidence:

  • “He told me that he’d been teaching this class for a long, long time and he’d seen lots of ideas. And this was by far and away the worst one.” (Tim Brown recounting Professor Carter Cast’s skepticism, 07:55)

• On his company’s mission:

  • “We started with a merino wool innovation and it was anchored in nature...there was an opportunity to go back to nature.” (Tim Brown, 13:35)

• On sustainability goals:

  • “If we can put someone on the moon, we can do this if we commit to it.” (Tim Brown, 14:55)

• On perspective and perseverance:

  • “Sport teaches you one thing...you understand that this is a long game. And while 10 years seems like a long time, I think we just tend to overestimate what we can do in the short run and underestimate what’s possible in the long run if you stick with us.” (Tim Brown, 17:46)

• On the parable of the farmer:

  • “I think the things that we think are really good oftentimes turn out to be challenging and vice versa. It’s only in the fullness of time can you look back and really evaluate what was the right thing.” (Tim Brown, 19:11)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:07 — Tim’s early life and football dreams.
• 05:25 — Inspiration to revive New Zealand’s wool industry.
• 07:44 — The life-changing entrepreneurship class and the professor’s blunt feedback.
• 07:58 — Unexpected success on Kickstarter.
• 10:57 — Realities and difficulties of shoe manufacturing.
• 11:48 — Partnership with Joey Zwillinger and move to San Francisco.
• 12:29 — Allbirds’ rapid success and expansion.
• 13:35 — Recognizing systemic overuse of synthetics in fashion.
• 14:55 — Brown’s optimism on achieving net zero carbon footprint.
• 15:55 — Critical look at challenges with manufacturing location and sustainability.
• 17:46 — Discussion of tough moments, IPO turbulence, and lessons from sport.
• 19:11 — Parable on the unpredictability of fortune in business.

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Summary

Tim Brown’s journey from New Zealand footballer to sustainable business leader is marked by resilience, adaptability, and an unwavering belief in the value of natural materials. Allbirds' story highlights both the promise and pain of entrepreneurship: from a challenged business concept to a global brand facing new trials in public markets and turbulent times for supply chains. Brown’s candor, humor, and philosophical outlook—rooted in both sport and entrepreneurship—offer key insights for founders, consumers, and anyone interested in the intersection of business, sustainability, and personal growth.

Transcript

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[Tim Brown]

You don't look like.

[Sam Fenwick]

Please see, I'll take that as a compliment.

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[SAP Concur Employee]

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[Tim Brown]

Yeah, just got in. I'll get all my expenses logged, I promise.

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[Sam Fenwick]

All right, so just curious, would you.

[SAP Concur Employee]

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[Tim Brown]

No.

[Sam Fenwick]

Yes.

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[Sam Fenwick]

Hello, I'm Sam Fenwick and this is Business Daily meets from the BBC World Service. Today's guest is Tim Brown, a former New Zealand footballer who went on to co found Allbirds, the billion dollar brand known for its woolen shoes. We hear how he made the leap from sport to sustainable style.

[Tim Brown]

In the background had been this entrepreneurial idea around shoes. I took an entrepreneurship class with a professor called Carter Karst in Chicago.

[Sam Fenwick]

It changed my life, the setbacks he faced along the way.

[Tim Brown]

He told me that he'd been teaching this class for a long, long time and he'd seen lots of ideas. And this was by far and away.

[Sam Fenwick]

The worst one to launching a billion dollar business making Woolen Shoes.

[Tim Brown]

In four days, we sold $125,000 worth of wool shoes. And it was the start of this whole journey.

[Sam Fenwick]

That's Tim Brown, the founder of Allbirds here on Business Daily from the BBC.

[Tim Brown]

My father was English, my mum was a Kiwi. We'd grown up in New Zealand. But I was born in England and my father and my grandfather had lived in London, worked on Fleet Street.

[Sam Fenwick]

Growing up in Karori, Wellington, Tim had two big dreams. To become a footballer and to design shoes. His football coaches doubted his chances, but he was determined to prove them wrong. And that determination paid off when at the age of just 17, he earned a scholarship to the University of Cincinnati marking the start of his football career.

[Tim Brown]

I can still remember it. There'd be a big game of rugby and we'd be playing football or soccer in the corner and if our ball kind of went in the rugby game, someone would pick it up and kind of kick it over the fence and we'd apologise and go get it. That was the kind of the hierarchy of where rugby sat equally. Cricket, I loved all sports, but soccer was the one that really connected for me and I just caught the bug and I've had it really ever since. And I was lucky enough, and I think this happens sometimes, to play with some really tremendous players when I was young, far, far better than me, and I just sort of tracked them, held onto their coattails and you know, when we went to the World cup many, many years later in 2010, well, the second time it had ever happened and the first time in 28 years I was playing with still those same kids that I'd grown up with in Wellington. So I was very fortunate. I loved it and along the way it was a gateway to come to America. Initially, that was the first big opportunity I had in my, in my football career.

[Sam Fenwick]

At the same time, Tim was studying architecture and developing a strong interest in design.

[Tim Brown]

I knew that design was what I wanted to do and I went to the University of Cincinnati. It was the best place that I could study design and play division at the top level in college sport. I'd never been to Cincinnati before, so I showed up in this town, this city, in the middle of the country that I'd never been to before. And it was a fairly jarring experience for an 18 year old.

[Sam Fenwick]

You had 30 caps for new Zealand and you were a key player in the 2010 World cup qualification campaign, weren't you, for New Zealand. But as I understand it, the tournament was cut short a bit for you because of injury.

[Tim Brown]

Yeah. So I played four years of university. I came out of university, didn't get drafted in the way that I hoped. It sort of was the first time I really, you know, asked myself the question, is this something that I could do professionally? I actually went to the UK on trial at Swansea and Bristol City and, and a couple other clubs and fell, you know, short. And that would have always been a dream to play in England. And I'd really just about given up on the whole thing. And I got a last minute phone call, I think a one week contract. There'd been an Australian player called Craig Moore who played for Newcastle United in The Premier League. And he'd gone to the horse races in Australia, coming back for a World cup qualifier and got really drunk. And so he got kicked off the team. I thanked him for this once, I met him once, and I said, thank you. You really, you made my career. So someone on one of the Australian teams got called up and then I got a one week contract to replace him. So a butterfly flaps his wings and all of a sudden, you know, I got an opportunity. And that was really the start of what became about eight years playing in the A League in Australia. And along the way, the potential to go to a World cup came into view.

[Sam Fenwick]

In 2007, at the height of his football career, Tim came across an article that got him thinking about how he could help support New Zealand's declining wool industry and maybe even make an impact globally.

[Tim Brown]

I read a magazine one day in my apartment in Wellington for the team I was playing for my hometown, which was really special. And I read this magazine about the decline of the wool industry and there was a kind of call for innovation. And so I'd been thinking about shoes. At the time, I was sponsored by one of the big sportswear companies, but it was all made from plastic and was heavily logoed. So it started with a design point of view about the products that I was getting and the belief that there was an opportunity to do something simple with natural fibers and in this particular case, merino wool.

[Sam Fenwick]

After a decade in sport, and having missed out on playing in the 2010 World Cup Finals in South Africa with the All Whites, Tim decided to hang up his boots and retire from the game. Even though he still had a couple of years left on his contract, I.

[Tim Brown]

Realised I was never, ever gonna get better than that. In fact, I'd taken my career and my talent far further than I ever thought possible. And so it was the right time to start thinking about the next chapter. And that came into view quite quickly after that tournament for me, I tore up a contract to go back and study. I'm kind of in my early 30s now. All my peers are building their professional resume, and now I'm coming in with no experience other than kicking a ball around. And people loved the World Cup. They wanted to talk about it. And then they asked, okay, but what can you do for me right now? And the short answer was, not much.

[Sam Fenwick]

After retiring from football, Tim struggled to find a job. So in 2012, he went back to his roots, heading to England to study for a master's in international Management at the London School of Economics.

[Tim Brown]

The truth is, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I thoroughly enjoyed the grad school experience, and it was amazing. I think it was great on paper and a little bit lonely when you actually do it. But in the background had been this entrepreneurial idea around shoes. I did an exchange at a university in America through my study in London. And I took an entrepreneurship class with a professor called Carter Cast in Chicago, the Northwestern University. And it changed my life. And it was a 10 week class on building a business. I had, at this stage, this early idea about the potential of shoes, and actually a couple of pairs of shoes that I'd curiously made with a factory that I'd found online. So I'd been thinking about this for a little while, but it was that class that really changed my life and turned this into the potential to be a business.

[Sam Fenwick]

But Tim's professor at the business school was skeptical. He challenged him to put the idea to the test on Kickstarter, the crowdfunding platform that helps creative projects raise money.

[Tim Brown]

He called me into his office. He was just such a compelling presence, but I was so thrilled to be sitting down with him. And then he told me that he'd been teaching this class for a long, long. And he'd seen lots of ideas, and this was by far and away the worst one. But for whatever reason, I was trying harder than anyone else. And so I should put the idea on Kickstarter so that it could fail and I could move on with my life, because he feared that I'd be one of those folks that would toil on this for a long time and make themselves effectively destitute. And so it was one of those moments where I walked out of that office and I was like, I really think he likes me. And I called his bluff, went home to New Zealand for Christmas and did exactly what he told me to do. And so March 2014, I just graduated from LSE. I'd done my best to spend most of my life savings. I launched a Kickstarter, and much to my surprise, in four days, we sold $125,000 worth of wool shoes. And it was the start of this whole journey.

[Sam Fenwick]

You're listening to Business Daily from the BBC World Service.

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I can predict you'll like that message.

[Tim Brown]

What message?

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[Sam Fenwick]

I'm Sam Fenwick and today I'm speaking to Tim Brown, the co founder of Allbirds, a San Francisco based shoe brand. Tim spent around seven years developing his shoe idea, creating hundreds of prototypes along the way. Eventually he partnered with a second factory in Portugal where one that could help him fulfill the orders he'd already sold to customers. But the challenges were only just beginning.

[Tim Brown]

Making shoes is extremely difficult. Making shoes with a material that has never been used before is, I mean I would go as far as to say foolhardy. So for all the success of that Kickstarter, it kicked off what was the hardest year of my life, living in London trying to deliver on the promise of this Kickstarter. And we did. But not without every foreseeable challenge and a whole bunch of mistakes to go along with it. If I'd known how hard this was all going to be, and I think a lot of people say this about building a business I would never have started.

[Sam Fenwick]

Tim faced challenge after challenge and even came close to breaking point before crossing paths with Joey Zwillinger, one of his first customers who would go on to become his business partner with Joey's biotech expertise and Tim's vision and the pair successfully launched Allbirds.

[Tim Brown]

I went to my girlfriend, now wife, who had really fallen in love with living in London and Said, hey, we've got to move to San Francisco. Quite frankly, I can't get another job. This is what we have to do. We raised a little bit of money and moved to San Francisco in late 2015 and prepared to relaunch this product, this first wool shoe under the brand Allbirds on the 1st of March 2016. And we got to work in sort of classic early stage startup fashion out of his mother in law's house in San Rafael, just north of San Francisco.

[Sam Fenwick]

For Tim, the inspiration behind the brand came from a younger, more conscious consumer, someone thinking more deeply about what they were wearing, what it was made from and where it came from.

[Tim Brown]

I think there was a category of shoes that were over logoed, over coloured, loud. It was hard to find, simple. And I think the backdrop of that was this what I would call the casualisation of fashion. All of a sudden it was becoming much more casual and sneakers as a category were being normalized as an everyday product. And so we, we hit a moment and with some good luck and a little bit of a vision for what it could be, and it just took off and we did a million pairs in the first couple of years of one shoe we sold online [e-mail] and in New Zealand so my mum could get a pair. And it really just was an explosive start that we could never have imagined. From Barack Obama to, you know, Stanley Tucci to Emma Watson and all the other things that went around it, you know, it continues to be an amazing adventure.

[Sam Fenwick]

Allbirds opened its first store in San Francisco in 2017. And within just a few years it expanded to more than 50 locations worldwide, serving customers in 93 countries. The company's come a long way from a single product to a full range of shoes made from natural materials.

[Tim Brown]

We started with a merino wool innovation and it was anchored in nature. And it was the idea that wool and natural materials had been in decline for a long time and there was an opportunity to go back to nature. We added eucalyptus fiber. And then we started to realize, oh my gosh, this whole industry has become addicted to cheap synthetic materials that are derived from barrels of oil. And you look at that, I mean, since 2000, I think we've doubled the amount of synthetic materials used in the fashion industry. It's now something like two to one, synthetics versus natural materials. And beyond that, I think we started to realize that there was a broader topic around sustainability. But I think when we started the business, I don't think that we knew what that meant and how it connected to Climate change.

[Sam Fenwick]

And so reducing the carbon footprint of the shoe. You're 60% there. What's the challenges of getting to the last bit?

[Tim Brown]

It took us a little while to understand that carbon footprint was the way that we were going to measure impact. And so at the beginning, I think there was a lot of intent. There was a lack of an ability to measure and understand. And I think as we went through that, we realized sustainability is a word that means a hundred different things.

[Sam Fenwick]

There will always be some carbon release, won't there, from the making of these shoes, from the transporting of these shoes. You make them in Vietnam, and they have to go all the way to the United States, for example, where most of your customers are.

[Tim Brown]

Well, yes, that is the case now. I don't think that it needs to be. And I think we showed earlier this year that you can actually make a net zero product without offsets. If you look holistically at the materials and the manufacturing and the supply chain, and there's a bunch of pockets of innovation in all those different pieces, that does make it possible. But, yes, our carbon footprint at the moment is not less than zero, but you can start to imagine that it can be. And quite frankly, look, if we can put someone on the moon, we can do this if we commit to it. And I think what's really interesting about this moment is that it feels like all of a sudden, it's become a little less important than it was even a few years ago. But my prediction is it will come back. And I think that this is really, you know, something that we've got to collectively work out.

[Sam Fenwick]

Allbirds shoes are mostly manufactured in Vietnam and South Korea, two countries well known for shoe production. But Tim says it's not possible to make them closer to home in New Zealand, even though that's where the wool, their main material, comes from.

[Tim Brown]

I think we're finding that at the moment, in this conversation around tariffs, certainly in an American context, is that for a long time, we have tended to move the manufacturer of certain goods, and a lot of goods to Asia, where the manufacturer of footwear has been entrenched for decades. And so it's not so simple to all of a sudden say, make them a New Zealander. I'm not even sure if it's possible in New Zealand. Certainly in America, it's extremely difficult. And that's come into the spotlight lately as these tariffs have been enforced on the industry. So much of the wool and natural fiber has to go to Asia to be processed anyway. So I think people want ice cream in this moment, they want this to be easy and simple. It's like every night you go out to your kitchen after you've done the dishes and you take the rubbish out and you want to put everything in the recycling bin and you want it to be okay, and it's not. And it's complicated. And the shades of gray and the idea that shoes are made close to the customer, I think is naive and possibly not possible in this moment. But it doesn't always necessarily mean that's going to be a more environmentally friendly product, depending on what it's made out of and how it's made. So you have to look at the total picture of this.

[Sam Fenwick]

You talked about the challenges of setting the business up, that sort of head in hands moment of when you really were wondering whether this was something you wanted to do. But as the business has grown, the challenges have got bigger too, haven't they? In the spring of 2024, you received a warning from the NASDAQ saying that you had to increase the value of your shares, that your share price needed to stay above a dollar for at least a month. This followed a 90% drop. Since its IPO, there's been a new structuring plan for the business. A new CEO, your co founder, has been sidelined. The business is changing from the one that you initially had. And that too must be really hard, mustn't it?

[Tim Brown]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's hard bits of this and there's great bits, and they often are a little bit in disguise. Sometimes the bits and the moments, like when we went public in a wildly celebrated IPO in November 21, just around the corner, was some really, really tough moments. I think overall, if sport teaches you one thing, you can play really well and lose the game, play really poorly, and sometimes win in the fullness of time. The best teams usually win the season. And you understand that this is a long game. And while 10 years seems like a long time, I think we just tend to overestimate what we can do in the short run and underestimate what's possible in the long run if you stick with us and we're in continue to be in a really difficult moment for the brand. But I'm in the headquarters today seeing so much of the good things that are happening and the good things that are to come.

[Sam Fenwick]

In recent months, global supply chains have been under pressure. The US President Donald Trump threatened steep tariffs on countries that export to the United States. The products shipped from Vietnam, where most of allbirds shoes are made, were facing a 46% levy. After intense negotiations, that was lowered to 20%. Tim says that running a global business is never without its challenges.

[Tim Brown]

At one point, I got told this story. It was the story of the farmer. It's the parable of the farmer. And I think it's incredibly apropos for my experience building a business and, quite frankly, through my sporting career as well. And it was the story of this farmer. So he's farming the land, he has one horse, and one day it runs away. And the nearby villagers come to see this farmer, and they say, what terrible misfortune. This horse has run away. What terrible bad luck. And he said, we'll see. And the next day, the horse returns with six other horses. And the villagers come and say, what great good fortune. And he says, we'll see. And then the next day, his son is breaking in. One of these horses gets flipped off. The horse breaks his leg. The villagers come, what terrible bad luck. And then the next day, the army comes through, signing young men up for what will be a bloody long war. And the son is ineligible. And I think the things that we think are really good oftentimes turn out to be challenging and vice versa. It's only in the fullness of time can you look back and really evaluate what was the right thing. And hence the importance of a mission and a vision, a little bit of a dream of doing it with people that you really respect and of sticking with it through those moments, even when it's really, really hard. And usually the best things are just on the other side of it. And that's certainly my experience.

[Sam Fenwick]

That's Tim Brown, co founder of the shoe company Allbirds. He was speaking to me, Sam Fenwick, for this edition of Business Daily. The program was produced by Amber Mahmood. If you'd like to get in touch, you can email us business [e-mail].

[Tim Brown]

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