Can global shipping go green?

Summary

Podcast Summary

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Business Daily (BBC World Service)

Episode: Can global shipping go green?
Date: November 17, 2025
Host: Will Bain

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Overview

This episode explores the immense challenge of decarbonizing the global shipping industry, a key player in international trade and a significant contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. While world leaders gather at the COP30 climate summit in Brazil, the shipping sector stands at a crossroads after a hard-fought international emissions deal failed to be ratified. Through interviews with industry leaders and experts, the podcast investigates why agreement remains elusive, the obstacles facing shipping’s green transition, and possible pathways forward.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Background: Shipping and Emissions

• Industry Scope: Shipping is responsible for moving 80% of global trade, valued at over $14 trillion per year, but contributes 2–3% of global greenhouse gas emissions.
  • “Shipping ranks as a top 10 contributor to greenhouse gas emissions…” — Will Bain [01:09]
• Missed Opportunity: Delegates at the International Maritime Organization (IMO) had the chance to set the first global, industry-wide, emissions reduction targets, but the agreement was delayed by at least a year.

2. Failure to Reach Agreement at the IMO

• The Stalled Deal:
  • A plan to mandate cleaner fuels and introduce a carbon tax intended to fund green technology failed.
  • Saudi Arabia led a motion to adjourn, supported by oil-dependent nations (UAE, Venezuela, Oman, Bahrain), delaying action.
    • “Saudi Arabia moved a motion to adjourn talks on how to implement the plans for a year. The motion passed by just eight votes.” — Will Bain [03:23]
• Geopolitical Tension:
  • Particularly strong opposition from the US, with President Trump condemning the proposal and threatening trade tariffs on participant countries.
  • “President Trump...denounce[d] the plans as a green scam that would increase prices of goods being shipped for consumers.” — Will Bain [04:24]

3. Industry Perspectives on the Delay

• Need for Clarity to Invest:
  • “We were hoping to have some clarity. To have the whole conversation torpedoed is deeply disappointing.” — Diane Gilpin, Smart Green Shipping [01:31, 10:50]
  • Shipowners and companies require regulatory certainty to make large-scale investments in new technology.
• Economic Concerns:
  • The likely increase in shipping costs would be passed on to the end consumer, causing concern among both industry and governments.
  • “The increased cost in shipping goods, it would likely be passed to the end consumer…” — James Helliwell, VGroup [11:43; 12:38]

4. Three Pathways to Decarbonization

• Vincent Clerc, CEO of Maersk, outlines three avenues:
  1. Consumer Willingness to Pay for Green Shipping
     • Currently insufficient at a global scale.
  2. Effective International Regulation and Incentives
     • Stalled by IMO’s delayed action.
  3. Technological Innovation to Reduce Green Premiums
     • Investment and innovation may continue, but at slower pace without the stimulus of regulation.
  • “There are three ways... One is to rely on a high willingness to pay from the end consumer… second is to have a regulatory framework… and then the third one is… technological innovation.” — Vincent Clerc [06:03]
• Risks of Delay:
  • Slower scaling of technology and increased uncertainty, but possible opportunity for new solutions to surface.
  • “It will delay the scaling of the technologies we’ve been talking about... The opportunity is that it will foster more innovation.” — Vincent Clerc [06:54]
• Optimistic Outlook:
  • “You have to believe that there is a path. If you don't think that there is a path, then it's time to stop and do something else.” — Vincent Clerc [08:08]

5. Industry Panel: Tackling the Hurdles

Panelists:

• Diane Gilpin (Smart Green Shipping)
• Tim Wilkins (Intertanko)
• James Helliwell (VGroup)

Key Themes:

• Disappointment and Uncertainty
  • “Absolutely, it was a disappointment... to have the whole conversation torpedoed is deeply disappointing.” — Diane Gilpin [10:50]
  • “It really was a shock… we were hopeful that this vote would have been positive and that we'd continue on that pathway.” — James Helliwell [11:11]
• Complexity of Fuel and Technology Choices
  • Safety, cost, and training for new fuels remain major concerns.
  • Uncertainty in regulatory support delays adoption and complicates investment.
  • “Which fuel do you train them on? There's still a lot of uncertainty about the safety of those fuels and what that means operationally.” — James Helliwell [12:38]
• Cost Passed to Consumers
  • “The increased cost in shipping goods… always going to [be] passed to that end user.” — James Helliwell [12:38; 13:05]
• Delay Increases Long-term Costs
  • “The reality of delay means that the costs will increase… Kicking the can down the road...will make things much, much more expensive.” — Diane Gilpin [13:55]
• Regulatory Framework Needed
  • “Any business… wants a clear regulatory framework in which to operate.” — Diane Gilpin [14:34]
• Industry Has Not Been Idle
  • The sector has already achieved a 29% emissions reduction since 2008.
  • “The industry has reduced its net emissions by 29% compared to 2008 in 2023. Now if we look at the target for 2030, then we are getting closer and closer…” — Tim Wilkins [15:00]
• Technological Innovation: Wind-Assisted Propulsion
  • Companies like Smart Green Shipping are developing digitally enabled wing sails, providing a modern take on wind power for retrofitting ships.
  • “We're developing wing sails which are effectively digitally enabled wind powered devices... using lightweight long life technology. And it's easy to retrofit and it's being put onto ships.” — Diane Gilpin [15:57]

6. Pathways Forward Despite Uncertainty

• Regional Regulation:
  • Even in absence of a global framework, regional actions (e.g., EU), and incremental steps can accelerate change.
  • “More regional regulation is still going to help drive and accelerate the pace of change, even with some uncertainty.” — James Helliwell [17:26]
• Focus on Efficiency Gains:
  • Encouragement for companies to push for energy efficiency with existing technology, which offers immediate cost and emission reductions.
  • “You can still reduce your emissions by 10, 20% just by trying to consume less amount of the fuel that we have today.” — James Helliwell [17:50]
• Resilience Through Diversification:
  • Reducing dependence on conventional fuels increases resilience in face of regulatory and political uncertainty.
  • “The more that the addiction to fuel can be decoupled, the more resilient the industry can be…” — Diane Gilpin [19:01]
• Optimism for a Return to the Table:
  • “Absolutely, it has to come back. The question, I guess, is [in] shape and form…” — Tim Wilkins [18:49]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “To have the whole conversation torpedoed is deeply disappointing.”
  — Diane Gilpin, on the IMO deal delay [01:31, 10:50]
• “You have to believe that there is a path. If you don’t think that there is a path, then it’s time to stop and do something else.”
  — Vincent Clerc, Maersk CEO [08:08]
• “Any business… wants a clear regulatory framework in which to operate.”
  — Diane Gilpin [14:34]
• “More regional regulation is still going to help drive and accelerate the pace of change…”
  — James Helliwell [17:26]
• “The industry has reduced its net emissions by 29% compared to 2008 in 2023.”
  — Tim Wilkins [15:00]

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment & Highlight | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:09 | Setting the episode’s main focus: shipping’s contribution to global emissions | | 03:23 | The adjournment of emissions deal at the IMO, Saudi Arabia’s motion | | 04:24 | Breakdown of political and economic opposition (including US stance) | | 06:03 | Vincent Clerc’s three paths to decarbonization | | 08:08 | Maersk CEO on optimism and continued commitment | | 10:29 | Introduction of industry panel | | 10:50 | Diane Gilpin laments the lack of clarity, disappointment in stalling progress | | 11:43 | Concerns about increased shipping cost for consumers (James Helliwell) | | 12:38 | Helliwell: Concerns for crew training, safety, and operational impact | | 13:55 | Gilpin: Delay will only raise long-term costs due to the climate crisis | | 15:00 | Wilkins: Industry has already cut 29% of emissions since 2008 | | 15:57 | Gilpin explains practical wind-assisted propulsion technology | | 17:26 | Regional regulation’s potential (Helliwell) | | 18:49 | Wilkins: The efforts to green shipping “have to come back” | | 19:01 | Gilpin: Reducing dependence on fuel strengthens industry resilience |

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Tone and Language

The episode carries a balanced but urgent tone, juxtaposing cautious optimism with the frustration of delayed action. Speakers highlight both technical and political complexity, stressing a pragmatic blend of regulatory support, technological innovation, and industry self-motivation.

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Conclusion

The episode underscores the global shipping industry’s critical junction — with delays on an international emissions deal leaving the sector in regulatory limbo even as climate change effects intensify. Industry leaders believe solutions are within reach but require clarity, investment, and multi-sector cooperation. Despite the setback, ongoing innovation and regional measures keep hope alive for shipping’s green transition.

For those seeking an intelligent take on the state of play in global shipping’s decarbonization journey, this episode offers sobering reality balanced with practical perspectives and optimism for what’s ahead.

Transcript

[Will Bain]

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[Will Bain]

Hello and welcome to Business Daily on the BBC World Service with me, Will Bain. Today, as world leaders are gathered for the COP30 climate summit in Brazil, we'll be zooming in on how to tackle emissions at the heart of global trade. Shipping ranks as a top 10 contributor to Greenhouse gas emissions, yet recent global goals to cap them fail to be agreed.

[Diane Gilpin]

We were hoping to have some clarity. To have the whole conversation torpedoed is deeply disappointing.

[Will Bain]

Concerns remain though about what those environmental targets might cost us.

[James Helliwell]

The increased cost in shipping goods, it would likely be path to the end consumer and cost of buying products in a store that have been shipped around the world.

[Will Bain]

So is there a way forward?

[Vincent Clerc]

You have to believe that there is a path. If you don't think that there is a path, then it's time to stop.

[Will Bain]

And do something else on business daily. Today then, we're going to be looking at why it seems so hard for the global shipping industry to get greener. The headquarters of the International Maritime Organisation on the south bank of London's River Thames are hard to miss. The rusted copper coloured bow of a ship protrudes from the front of the office building, jutting out towards the river as if ready to set sail. A memorial sculpture to seafarers around the world In October it greeted delegates from more than 100 countries heading into the building. Many of them, they thought to make history. Because the leaders were gathered to ratify a deal 10 years in the making which had been struck back in the spring and would, if agreed by them, see shipping become the first industry in the world with internationally mandated targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. From 2028, it read, shipowners would have to use increasingly cleaner fuels or face fines. But after days of talks, the historic agreement layeth not in tatters then, very much in the long grass.

[Unidentified SAP Concur spokesperson]

Now a plan to introduce a new carbon tax on global shipping looks like it's going to fail to get the backing it needs to come into force. The idea is to raise billions of dollars to fund the green technology, which would reduce emissions from an industry that's responsible for 2% of carbon emissions.

[Will Bain]

Saudi Arabia moved a motion to adjourn talks on how to implement the plans for a year. The motion passed by just eight votes.

[Arsenio Dominguez]

Throughout the negotiations and the discussions, several areas for clarifications were raised, which in the end led to the committee to agree to adjourn the meeting for a year.

[Will Bain]

That was Arsenio Dominguez, the Secretary General of the International Maritime Organization here on the World Service. That day, he explained more about why members had decided to delay the implementation for a year.

[Arsenio Dominguez]

Always been aware that these are actually big discussions for the organization. These are discussions that, as we have said, are decarbonization of shipping not happening just within the sector. We need all the sectors to play their part, and we are serious about protecting the environment and of course, providing a just and equitable transition. I do always work with a membership in order to find the consensus and to move the way forward. But during negotiation, it started to become clear that the membership needed more time.

[Will Bain]

Different countries, it turned out, had a range of concerns. Saudi Arabia and other countries whose economies rely heavily on oil revenues, for example, like the uae, Venezuela, Oman and Bahrain, were all concerned about what the deal might do to oil prices. But by far the strongest condemnation came from the United States, with President Trump taking to truth social on the eve of the talks to denounce the plans as a green scam that would increase prices of goods being shipped for consumers. And he threatened tariffs on countries that signed up. Thomas Kazakos, the Secretary General of the International Chamber of Shipping, the body that represents 80% of the world's fleet, said he was disappointed member states had not been able to agree a way forward and warned the industry needed clarity to be able to make the investments needed to decarbonize the maritime sector. And that's the central issue here. Shipping is big business. Every day, tens of thousands of massive vessels crisscross the world's oceans, bringing us the goods we want or need. It's an industry worth more than US$14 trillion each year, moving 80% of global trade. But that movement of goods comes at a cost to the environment. And the international shipping industry is responsible, as we heard, for between 2 and 3% of global greenhouse gas emissions. The rules may be delayed then, but for many within the industry, they know the issue still persists. It's about how you get there. It was something we spoke to the chief executive of one of the world's biggest shipping firms, Maersk, about. Vincent Cl joined us from their headquarters in the Danish capital, Copenhagen.

[Vincent Clerc]

There is three ways to go to actually solve the problem of energy transition. One is to rely on a high willingness to pay from the end consumer for green solutions. It is not there to the extent that it would be necessary at this stage. The second is to have a regulatory framework that would level the playing field and provide the incentive to invest in green. That's what we thought we had with the IMO until very recently, and we found out that actually we didn't. And then the third one is actually to continue to work on the technology to reduce or erase the green premium so that this can go without the regulatory framework and without the willingness to pay. I think for sure what the IMO decision has meant is the regulatory framework is pushed a bit further in, in the future.

[Will Bain]

I was going to say, does it not slow down part three, though as well? Because there isn't that incentive to do that spending when you've got other places where some of that investment might also be needed.

[Vincent Clerc]

So clearly that's one of the risks. It is that it will delay the scaling of the technologies we've been talking about. The opportunity is that it will foster more innovation because a lot of capital now would go towards finding either different processes or different ways of producing or different fuels or completely new solution that will not rely on a green premium to be effective. And there are different things that are being worked on that could have a lot of potential. We're looking at electrification of shipping. We're looking at different solutions that actually might be able to scale without relying on a regulatory framework. And if the consequences of the IMO decisions is that we get to a new and better solution, then I think it's going to be a win for a delay. That's what we have to work through right now.

[Will Bain]

So it's, it's about the pacing of that change as well, to sort of keep people on board, keep consumers on board with it too. Not feeling that they're paying a premium for it.

[Vincent Clerc]

Yeah, I think it's really important to remember the complexity of this and that there's going to be ups and there's going to be downs, but we have to keep people engaged. We have to keep also capital flowing towards investing in potential new solutions. There's going to be a big industry to build when we find those solutions. And I think there is still a lot of hope that we can make this in time.

[Will Bain]

You're an optimist still, and Maersk is still as committed as you were to this.

[Vincent Clerc]

You have to believe that there is a path. If you don't think that there is a path, then it's time to stop and do something else. I do believe there is a path. I believe if I look at how much technology has evolved in the last five years and just assume that this will continue for the next few years, then I think we're going to have some significant breakthrough. The framework at the IMO has been delayed, but there is still a lot of momentum from a lot of countries to get something done on the regulatory front. I think also this is getting more and more important for a lot of citizens around in the world because the effect of climate change are being felt more and more. So, you know, maybe we will not get to an easy, IMO pure solution on time, but we'll get through a combination of different things. But I do believe that there is a path and I do believe that we can look at the future with a lot of optimism still.

[Will Bain]

Vincent Clerk, the chief executive of the shipping firm Maersk, speaking to us from Copenhagen. You're listening to Business Daily on the BBC World Service with me, Will Bain.

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[Will Bain]

And today, with the COP30 climate summit ongoing in Brazil, we're looking at why it's proving so difficult for the shipping industry to work out how to get greener. So what comes next? How do those in the sector see the decision, or lack thereof, made at that IMO meeting? And is there a way to try and please everyone and move forward? We gathered a panel of industry leaders to try and work some of that out.

[Diane Gilpin]

Hello, I'm Diane Gilpin. I'm the founder and CEO of Smart Green Shipping.

[Tim Wilkins]

Tim Wilkins, Managing Director for Intertanko, the association of Independent Tanker Owners.

[James Helliwell]

Hello. James Helliwell, Commercial Director for decarbonisation at VGroup. We're a ship management organisation.

[Will Bain]

Diane, why don't you field this? Was it disappointing, the outcome?

[Diane Gilpin]

Yeah, absolutely, it was a disappointment. We were hoping to have some clarity that would stimulate the acceleration of our technology of all sorts of different wind assist fuel reduction technology, but to have the whole conversation torpedoed is deeply disappointing.

[Will Bain]

James Hallowell of V Group, was it the same? Was it a shock?

[James Helliwell]

It really was a shock. This is a journey that the maritime industry's been on for certainly the last three or four years, and we were hopeful, really hopeful, that this vote would have been positive and that we'd continue on that pathway to decarbonise the maritime industry.

[Will Bain]

And, Tim, what about for your members at Intertanko? Was it as simple as the threat of potential tariffs from the US side was just completely what shook this up, or were there other concerns already that had mounted up and that was just simply sort of a final straw that nudged people over the top, do you think?

[Tim Wilkins]

I think there was a set of contributing factors. The high politics at play was obviously the tipping point. But if you really listen closely to what happened at MEPC 83, which was the meeting before, there was already concerns that had been put on the table at that meeting. And I think if you read between the lines, you'd have said, oh, there's still a little bit of uncertainty. And that uncertainty simply grew.

[Will Bain]

And so was that around exactly what you were talking about? Okay, all well and good. We've got a framework if people don't go on this journey. A stick, if you like. What are the carrots? Where are the transitions? Where are the pathways, as you put it?

[Tim Wilkins]

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

[Will Bain]

I think There are a lot of.

[Tim Wilkins]

Question marks over the funding side of things, where that fund was going to be used, how it was going to be managed, and basically who's going to take advantage over that. So that was one aspect that was still thrown into question. Certainly from an industry perspective, there were those questioning the realism of the objectives that have been set.

[Will Bain]

James, just a quick thought on that. Was that a concern for you?

[James Helliwell]

I mean, more of a concern for us was really what it meant for the seafarers and the crew we have on board in terms of which fuel do you train them on? There's still a lot of uncertainty about the safety of those fuels and what that means operationally. I think on the cost side, the real cost, the increased cost in shipping goods, it would likely be pat to the end consumer and cost of buying products in a store that have been shipped around the world. In the shipping industry, it's always going to passed to that end user.

[Will Bain]

And to be clear, that was President Trump's argument, right, wasn't it?

[James Helliwell]

It was, yep. Yep.

[Will Bain]

And so how do you see that being overcome?

[James Helliwell]

I mean, I think that's one of the arguments that's been put forward for delaying this for 12 months, that the IMO still need to work out the finer details of how the fund is going to be gathered, how the money that is generated from the fund is then going to be used to help the industry to decarbonize. So that there's obviously a lot of tension around that financing side. But at the same time, one of our frustrations is it takes longer to decarbonize the we're on this pathway to 2050, and any further year that we're delayed makes it harder and harder for shipping companies to achieve those goals.

[Will Bain]

Yeah, Diane, that seems like the sort of almost unsolvable bit, but right now, I think someone said this, didn't they, off the back of the meetings? Diesel is just by far and away the cheapest way to do this. How do you shift that?

[Diane Gilpin]

I think reality comes in all sorts of forms, doesn't it? And the reality of the climate emergency is in our face every single day. And the reality of delay means that the costs will increase. I mean, we're already seeing extremely high costs for insurers for extreme events. But the reality is also that the industry has to now operate in a more complex environment. It becomes more and more complicated to be a ship owner. So kicking the can down the road, I think will make things much, much more expensive.

[Will Bain]

And it means people dealing with this, thinking about it Time, productivity, all that kind of stuff as well. And just pure business terms. Terms.

[Diane Gilpin]

Yeah, absolutely. Any business doesn't need to be in shipping, wants a clear regulatory framework in which to operate. I have not, in the 15 or so years I've been working in shipping, met anybody who has said, I would like to accelerate the climate change impact. So there's a lot of very, very good people working in this industry and everybody is committed to doing something or certainly most people.

[Will Bain]

Well, Tim just. Tim, just pick up on that appetite from members.

[Tim Wilkins]

Yeah, I would like to actually, because I think there's a great misconception out there that the industry has been sitting around waiting for this decision. In fact, looking at the IMO data, it really does showcase the trajectory of the industry and driving down its emissions and becoming more efficient. The paper basically says after four years of collecting this data, the industry has reduced its net emissions by 29% compared to 2008 in 2023. Now if we look at the target for 2030, then we are getting closer and closer to that 30%, striving for 40% net emission reduction. I think it's a very positive point to launch from and say, well, the industry hasn't been sitting around twiddling its thumbs waiting for something to happen because it makes good business sense, because it makes good ethical sense, will continue to drive down their emissions.

[Will Bain]

Well, that brings us neatly, doesn't it, to what is being done and the pace at which is happening at Diane, because that's very much your field, isn't it? Wind assisted propulsion is the term. Explain to people what you guys do practically how it works.

[Diane Gilpin]

We're developing wing sails which are effectively digitally enabled wind powered devices. So if you think of a sail, but it's made out of aluminium, wind is available, it's abundant. The point that we want to be able to discuss is that there's a lot of energy in the world, wind built global trade systems. So we're not suggesting that you go back to a kind of clipper ship from the 1850s, but you know, wind power is powering grids. We know that we can harness that in 21st century ways using lightweight long life technology. And it's easy to retrofit and it's being put onto ships. It is being put onto ships on a fairly piecemeal basis. I mean there are something like between 60 and 100,000 ships in the world, depending on who you ask. I think it's about scale and it's about acceleration.

[Will Bain]

But to up that pace, then there's not going to be this nudge in terms of rules and regulations to do that. So what is going to incentivize it and what is going to allow companies like you to grow to make your product cheaper? All that kind of stuff as what. What is kind of in the way at the moment, do you think?

[Diane Gilpin]

Yeah, I think the incentive is around building coalitions of the willing. The framework doesn't change people's belief that we have to decarbonize. It doesn't change the 2030 goal that the IMO set. It doesn't change the 2050 goal. It just makes it more difficult.

[Will Bain]

James, what's your sense around the pace of change and upping it?

[James Helliwell]

I think more regional regulation is still going to help drive and accelerate the pace of change, even with some uncertainty.

[Will Bain]

But it's the other wild card to that, that President Trump is out there saying tariffs for this kind of stuff that we actually, we want you to roll back those things as well, those regional things. We think those things are bad for business. We think those things are bad for American consumers too. And if you do them well, we'll factor them into our tariff negotiations.

[James Helliwell]

I think all of this uncertainty when we talk about international tariffs and how polit policy or may or may not develop is all of this will increase the cost of conventional fuels. All of this uncertainty is going to have an impact on fuel price. And so one thing we talk to a lot of our clients is focus on energy efficiency first. You can still reduce your emissions by 10, 20% just by trying to consume less amount of the fuel that we have today. So with all of that uncertainty, why not focus on Geofficial?

[Will Bain]

And that can make good business sense in its own right too.

[James Helliwell]

Exactly. It makes a very strong business case. Some of the wind technologies like Diane's company provides the air lubrication systems, propeller devices, all sorts of technologies that are on the market can help a ship owner to save money today.

[Will Bain]

Tim, interesting hearing the sort of language you use. You really believe that this will come back? Because I think a lot of people, perhaps cynics, I think that's it. It's in the long grass now and it's not coming back. And it's just convenient that there's a date in the future this will never be returned.

[Tim Wilkins]

You know, absolutely, it has to come back. The question, I guess the key question is shape and form this comes back rather than will it come back? And that's something we need to work on.

[Will Bain]

And at the pace it goes at Diane as well.

[Diane Gilpin]

Yeah. And I think the more that the addiction to fuel can be decoupled, the more resilient the industry can be and the more robust it can be in the face of this kind of regulatory uncertainty.

[Will Bain]

Diane Gilpin, the chief executive and founder of Smart Green Shipping, there you also heard from James Hallowell, commercial director for decarbonization at the V Group, and from Tim Wilkins, managing director of Intertanko, the International association of Independent Tanker Owners. That's just about it from us today. The producer was David Kann. And remember, do subscribe to our podcast to never miss an episode. Just search for BBC Business Daily.

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