Business Daily (BBC World Service)

Episode: Drones: who’s making the new weapons of war?
Date: November 13, 2025
Host: Gideon Long

Episode Overview

In this episode, Gideon Long explores the booming global industry of military drones, spotlighting how the Russia-Ukraine conflict has transformed drone warfare and turbocharged the sector. Through interviews with experts, entrepreneurs, and innovators—from a former Kyiv florist turned drone manufacturer to anti-drone technologists—the episode breaks down the dramatic expansion of both drone production and counter-drone measures, while also considering the ethical, strategic, and technical futures of autonomous weapons.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ukraine as the First “Full-Blown Drone War”

• Dramatic surge in drone warfare since Russia’s 2022 invasion.

  • "This has been the first full blown drone war. They've become the go to weapon for the Ukrainians."
    — Stacey Pettijohn (01:22, 04:46)

• Both sides use inexpensive commercial drones, often retrofitted with explosives, to attack and surveil.

  • “It’s just drones everywhere. Armed drones, modified drones. It’s like a drone workshop. The war has been fought in places like this as much as on the battlefield now.”
    — Gideon Long (04:01)

• Ukrainian innovation is grassroots:

  • “There are a ton of mom and pop shops where people are making drones... and donating them to the forces in addition to established industries.”
    — Stacey Pettijohn (05:00)

  • “These various companies, collectives, and individuals in Ukraine are churning out well over a million drones every year.”
    — Gideon Long (05:31)

2. The Personal Stories Behind Ukraine’s Drone Boom

• Ksenia Kalmus, former florist:

  • Shifted her Kyiv business from flowers to drones after the invasion.

    • “It was just obvious decision for me. I just wanted to help my country, help my people and military.” (06:15)

  • Manufactures various drones (8“–13” models, payloads up to 8kg), sometimes for humanitarian aid.

    • “The big drones can be also used as humanitarian drones... to deliver supplies to the unit, like medicine, water, food, tourniquets.” (06:32)

  • Strives to source Ukrainian-made components:

    • “We don’t want to give money to China... Some of the parts, like cameras, unfortunately we have to buy from China, but most are produced in Ukraine.” (07:09)

  • On living under attack:

    • “Yes, now we have lot of attacks with drones and with ballistic missiles. We have problems with energy at the moment, but nothing is impossible... when you want to survive.” (07:46)

  • On the emotional impact:

    • “Yes, I miss flowers very much... it’s sad that we all have this reality now... But this is a question of existence.” (08:15)

3. The Business of Drones: Major Players and Startups

• Drones are globally in demand—not just in Ukraine/Russia:

  • Sudan, Myanmar, and other war zones now see drone strikes as routine. (10:41)

• Big and small military-industrial firms are booming:

  • AeroVironment (US): Share price up 500% since Ukraine war’s start.
  • Tecever (Portugal): Became a “unicorn” (valued over $1bn) in 2025.
  • Flyby (UK), Stark (Germany): Rapid expansion, new European plants.
    • “For the UK, we are a new style of autonomy defence company. We major in scalable, mass producible autonomous weapon systems.”
      — Mike Armstrong, Stark (12:07)

• Mergers and acquisitions:

  • Big defense giants (Saab, BAE Systems) buy up innovative startups to integrate drone tech. (11:00–12:00)

  • “If you can’t beat them, it seems you can always buy them.”
    — Gideon Long (12:03)

4. The Counter-Drone Boom: Jamming and Beyond

• Counter-drone tech is now its own industry.

  • “For every drone launched in anger... there’s usually someone trying to jam its radio signal or shoot it down.”
    — Gideon Long (13:27)

  • DroneShield (Australia): Publicly listed, share price up 2,600% since 2022.

    • “We make hardware and software that you can carry...to detect and safely take down small drones... Defeat is done primarily through jamming...”
      — Oleg Vornik (14:47)

  • Large-scale growth:

    • “We moved from 250 to 400 people just in the last 10 months. By this time next year... between 5 and 600 people... about 5x increase.”
      — Oleg Vornik (14:17)

  • Real-world global use:

    • “About 4,000 counter drone systems deployed in about 50 countries... Hundreds in Ukraine against Russian drones.” (15:26)

  • On jamming vs. shooting:

    • “Shooting drones down doesn’t work... it moves at 100km an hour... By the time you shoot one or two, the other five would have done their job.” (16:29)

• Moonin Dynamics (Norway/US):

  • Founder Magnus Freyr (ex-paratrooper) building “kinetic” mini-systems for individual soldiers.
    • “A small system that you can have a couple of in your vest to shoot down the drone... It will be literally shooting it down rather than jamming it.” (17:10–18:14)

5. The Future: From Remote Control to Autonomous Swarms

• Drones are currently either remote piloted or pre-programmed.

  • “Most of the drones in Ukraine are remotely piloted... They’re not truly smart, intelligent machines.”
    — Stacey Pettijohn (18:42)

• Next steps: Autonomy and swarming

  • “You’re going to just start seeing drones where groups are controlled... by one operator... and then eventually fully autonomous drones that can... collectively decide what is the best way for all of them to act.”
    — Stacey Pettijohn (18:42)

  • “Imagine swarms of drones collaborating with one another and deciding in real time on the best way to hit a target.”
    — Gideon Long (19:20)

• Security concerns

  • The biggest vulnerability of drones is their reliance on human command links.
    • “Severing that command link is one of the most effective ways of neutralising them, means that there’s going to be an operational imperative for more autonomy going forward.”
      — Stacey Pettijohn (19:27)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ksenia Kalmus on shifting from beauty to war:

  • “It’s not hard, it’s sad.” (08:15)

• Mike Armstrong on the inevitability of drone warfare:

  • "I think it's the future of warfare. I think legacy systems, artillery, tanks, they all have a place in warfare. But I think what we have seen is a major innovation which is not going to go away anytime soon." (13:14)

• Oleg Vornik on why jamming trumps shooting:

  • “Shooting drones down doesn't work... it moves at 100km an hour... By the time you shoot one or two of those, the other five would have done their job.” (16:29)

• Stacey Pettijohn on technological evolution:

  • “You’re going to just start seeing drones where groups are controlled, maybe by one operator... and then eventually fully autonomous drones that can collectively decide what is the best way for all of them to act.” (18:42)

Important Timestamps

• 01:22–04:46: Surge in drone use since Ukraine invasion; drones’ central role in modern warfare.
• 06:00–08:42: Interview with Ksenia Kalmus (Kyiv drone manufacturer).
• 12:07–13:14: Mike Armstrong on manufacturing British drones and sector growth.
• 13:51–16:54: Oleg Vornik on anti-drone tech, global markets, and jamming vs. shooting.
• 17:10–18:15: Magnus Freyr on new soldier-carried kinetic counter-drone systems.
• 18:42–19:53: Stacey Pettijohn on the future: AI, autonomy, swarms, security concerns.

Tone & Style

• Fact-based, urgent, and pragmatic: Reflects the life-or-death stakes faced by Ukrainian civilians and soldiers, but also the business enthusiasm of new defense entrepreneurs.
• Global perspective: Balances technical details with human stories and economic analysis.
• Forward-looking: Considers both present innovation and speculative futures.

Summary

This episode provides a nuanced portrait of the explosive growth in military drone technology and its countermeasures, tracing its roots to Ukraine’s grassroots efforts, the explosive successes of global startups, and the technological arms race toward full autonomy. It brings listeners behind the scenes with entrepreneurs-turned-warriors, big industry disruptors, and the inventors of new ways both to deploy and destroy drones—highlighting how warfare, business, and everyday life are being transformed, often by ordinary people living through extraordinary times.