Business Daily (BBC World Service)

Episode: John Pagano: the CEO trying to grow Saudi tourism

Date: December 12, 2025
Host: Liana Byrne
Guest: John Pagano (CEO, Red Sea Global)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the career of John Pagano, a Canadian-born developer with a track record in transforming neglected landscapes into thriving economic centers, and his current role as CEO of Red Sea Global, leading Saudi Arabia's high-profile drive to make tourism a pillar of its post-oil economy. The discussion covers his early life, his key projects (Canary Wharf, Bahamian resorts), and the massive, controversial ambitions of Saudi Arabia’s Vision 2030 plan. The episode delves into the challenges and promises of “regenerative tourism,” social changes in the Kingdom, international scrutiny, and Pagano’s own connection to Saudi Arabia.

John Pagano’s Early Life and Career

Humble Beginnings and Drive (01:31 - 03:16)

• Background: Born in Canada to Italian immigrant parents; instilled with a strong work ethic from an early age.
• First jobs: Started with a paper route at age 8, then worked as a busboy and waiter.
  • Quote: “I always aspire to do better, I always try to do. So I started as a busboy, then I wanted to be a waiter and then I wanted to be a cook. So I ended up in the kitchen cooking...” (John Pagano, 01:31)
• Education: University of Toronto, Mechanical Engineering—a problem-solving mindset paved the way for his ambitions.

Real Estate Breakthrough: Canary Wharf (03:30 - 06:48)

• Early career: From engineering consultancy to real estate with Olympia and York.
• Role in Canary Wharf: Joined during the redevelopment of London’s Docklands into a financial district.
  • Quote: “London was suffering from a lack of modern office space to really attract the financial services sector. ... We were an important part of providing the accommodation and the space for the bankers and financiers that ultimately came and made London the financial centre of Europe.” (John Pagano, 05:03)
• Reflections on city evolution: Hindsight points to the value of mixed-use developments over single-purpose financial districts.
  • Quote: "Perhaps we should have been looking at a more balanced mixed use development. ... People want to live and work nearby, they want to have the amenities, the retail." (John Pagano, 06:06)

Turning Saudi Vision into Reality

The Saudi Invitation (07:08 - 08:54)

• Recruitment: Unexpectedly approached to consider a leadership role in Saudi Arabia.
  • “At first I wasn’t interested...But they were persistent and so eventually they asked me to come and actually see what they had on offer.” (John Pagano, 07:08)
• First impressions: Surprised by the natural beauty of the Red Sea coast, challenging stereotypical perceptions.
  • “When I arrived and they took me to the west coast and along the Red Sea, I was literally astonished by what I saw... Beautiful turquoise water, brilliant islands, pristine corals.” (07:08)
• Meeting the Crown Prince: Engaged by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's (MbS) passion for development and conservation.

Red Sea Global’s Ambitions (08:54 - 09:37, 11:14)

• Mandate: Develop two major resort zones on the Red Sea coast (The Red Sea Project and Amala), aiming to open 27 hotels and resorts by May 2026.
  • “Our goal is to develop two major projects on the Red Sea coast... We’re helping to deliver on that promise of transforming the kingdom and also on diversifying the economy in terms of moving away purely from oil resources to tourism.” (John Pagano, 08:54)
• Vision 2030 context: Saudi targets 150 million annual visitors and 1.6 million tourism-related jobs by 2030.

Sustainability and Regenerative Tourism

Environmental Promise and Reality (11:51 - 16:09)

• Clean slate: Pristine land, with the Crown Prince’s conservation words “echoing.”
• Conservation-driven planning:
  • Extensive surveys: Baseline studies with scientists to map marine biodiversity (sea grasses, corals, mangroves).
  • Development restraint: Decision not to develop certain islands (e.g., a key sea turtle nesting site).
    • “I was faced with a dilemma...if I develop it, I’m potentially going to accelerate the extinction of a beautiful turtle species. And so the decision didn’t take long to make. We set that island aside and are not going to develop that island...” (John Pagano, 12:57)
• Beyond sustainability—regeneration:
  • “If you look up the definition [of sustainability], it says maintain the status quo. ... We need to actually try to improve the destination...So instead of just simply maintaining the status quo, we set ourselves the goal of actually increasing the net conservation value of the entire destination by 30% over the coming two decades.” (John Pagano, 13:54)
• Visitor management: Limiting visitor numbers by design (max 1 million annually) and developing only a small fraction of available islands.

Luxury over Mass Market (15:47)

• Tourism positioning: Focus on high-end, four and five-star resorts, not mass market tourism.
  • “We did not want to go mass market...we want to limit numbers of visitors to be in harmony with our environment rather than, you know, fighting it.” (John Pagano, 15:47)

Social Change and International Scrutiny

Women’s Rights and Social Evolution (16:09 - 17:16)

• Progress reported: Significant reforms for women—no mandatory abaya, increased workforce participation.
  • “Gone are the days of having to wear an abaya. It’s now about giving people choices... Women drive. Guardianship rules have been removed... They set the goal of 30% women in the workplace by 2030. They achieved that a couple of years ago.” (John Pagano, 16:14)
• Ongoing challenges: Host notes Saudi Arabia’s low ranking in gender equality and continuing international concerns over human rights.

Project Pace and Economic Reality (17:16 - 18:55)

• Slowdown of giga-projects: Some major projects have been paused or scaled back due to oil price fluctuations and feasibility.
  • “The ambition of Saudi Arabia is on a scale that is unprecedented globally... As you progress through projects, you sometimes pause and reflect and make sure that you’re heading in the right direction. ... If you have to course correct, you course correct.” (John Pagano, 18:24)

The Khashoggi Crisis (18:55 - 21:51)

• Context: The murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi cast a shadow during Pagano’s early Red Sea tenure.
  • “It was unfortunate what happened and the attention was clearly not wanted, but it didn’t distract us from what we were trying to do. We pressed ahead to try to deliver on our commitments to helping the Saudi economy. ... We work with our local communities. We’ve created a co-op for 3,000 farmers. We’ve trained thousands of young Saudis to give them life-changing opportunities...” (John Pagano, 20:32)
• Commitment: Pagano expresses faith in the vision for reform and never considered quitting.
  • “No, look, it never crossed my mind. ... I believed in the ultimate vision ... and that’s what ultimately kept me there.” (John Pagano, 21:30)

Personal Transformation and Forward Vision

Embracing Saudi Arabia (21:51 - 22:34)

• Integration: Pagano granted Saudi citizenship and has converted to Islam.
  • “I would, and it is [my home]. ... I was overwhelmed by the messages that I received from all over Saudi Arabia.”
  • “I don’t see the same level of optimism about their future as I do in Saudi Arabia. And that’s, you know, quite an exciting place for me to be.” (John Pagano, 22:04)

Love for Grand Projects and Legacy (22:54 - 23:24)

• Motivation: Finds purpose in building teams and transformative projects.
  • “I love building teams. I love building the organization. ... I love the people around me. I love watching them grow. It’s just amazing.” (John Pagano, 22:54)
• Personal legacy: Proud of contributions to Canary Wharf, Bahamian resorts, and the Saudi Red Sea.
  • “I think I’ve left some legacies behind. I’ve got Canary Wharf. I did something in the Bahamas, and now I’m doing something on a much even bigger scale in Saudi Arabia.” (John Pagano, 23:15)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On development choices:
  “When we further studied it, we realized that this was a favored nesting site for the critically endangered hawksbill sea turtle... So the decision didn’t take long to make. We set that island aside and are not going to develop that island...” (John Pagano, 12:57)

• On Saudi optimism:
  “I don’t see the same level of optimism about their future as I do in Saudi Arabia. And that’s, you know, quite an exciting place for me to be.” (John Pagano, 22:18)

• On leading through criticism:
  “It was unfortunate what happened... but it didn’t distract us from what we were trying to do. ... We were doing so much good that that was our focus.” (John Pagano, 20:32)

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:31–03:16: John Pagano's early years and determination
• 03:30–06:48: The Canary Wharf transformation and lessons for urban development
• 07:08–08:54: First contact with Saudi Arabia and initial impressions
• 08:54–09:37; 11:14: Vision 2030 and the Red Sea Global mandate
• 11:51–16:09: Environmental approach, regenerative tourism, and visitor strategy
• 16:09–17:16: Discussion of women’s rights and societal reforms
• 17:16–18:55: Giga-project slowdowns and adjusting vision
• 18:55–21:51: Khashoggi case, international scrutiny, and continuing with the mission
• 21:51–23:24: Personal connection to Saudi Arabia, citizenship, and vision for legacy

This episode provides an insider perspective into the complexities of Saudi Arabia’s transformation, balancing environmental ambition, social change, and global skepticism. Pagano emerges as both a pragmatist and a believer in the power of destination-scale development to foster economic and social change.