Should we expect more airline delays?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Business Daily – "Should we expect more airline delays?"

Host: Russell Padmore (BBC World Service)
Date: October 7, 2025
Main Theme:
This episode explores the growing unreliability of airline operations, focusing on how outdated and failing technology, staff shortages, cyberattacks, and organizational failures lead to delays and cancellations. The episode gathers insights from airport chiefs, software experts, pilots, and industry consultants to uncover the causes and propose solutions for the ongoing disruptions in global aviation.

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1. Growing Disruptions in Air Travel

Key Points:

• Increasing passenger numbers coincide with more frequent technical disruptions at airports.
• Failures in check-in, boarding, and security systems are forcing airlines to delay or cancel flights.
• Frequent reports of significant delays due to a combination of local technical glitches, cyberattacks, and staff shortages.

Memorable Quote:

“More people than ever are flying, but airline business travelers or passengers taking a holiday are experiencing more disruption because technology used by aviation keeps failing.”
— Russell Padmore (01:01)

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2. Causes of Aviation IT Failures

Outdated and Overburdened Technology

Brian Glick (Editor-in-Chief, Computer Weekly) [05:20-06:50]:

• Many airports still use software designed 10-20 years ago.
• Complex networks of interconnected systems make updating and maintenance difficult.
• Crashes often result from failed software updates or changes that can't be quickly reversed.

Quote:

“Some of these airports may be using software that was first developed 10, 20 years ago... There’s a huge amount of information that’s being shared and transferred around... all connecting into this extremely complex IT infrastructure.” — Brian Glick (05:20)

Reluctance to Modernize

• Cost and risk associated with replacing legacy systems discourage quick upgrades.
• High stakes make operators cautious about introducing major changes.

Quote:

“If the risk of replacing an older system that generally still works is greater than the risk and the cost involved in building an entirely new system, they're going to stick with what they've got.”
— Brian Glick (06:32)

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3. The Ripple Effects of Delays

Knock-On Impacts

• System failures don't just affect one flight but can create a chain reaction, moving planes out of position and causing multi-flight disruptions.
• Costs mount for airlines due to compensation and the need to rebook or reposition aircraft.

Quote:

“It’s not just that one flight, it’s the knock on effect... The cost of that to airlines is huge. We need to stop this from happening because airlines will go bust eventually.”
— Jennifer Bradnam, Travel Counsellor (04:43)

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4. The Passenger and Employee Experience

At Dublin Airport [08:01-09:29]:

• Passengers express growing resignation and frustration toward inevitable delays.
• Business travelers note the increasing need to allocate extra time for travel and the regular loss of connecting flights.

Quote:

“Absolutely. You know, between weather and technology, delays are more and more prevalent. And when you do travel you've got to allot extra time and just be patient.”
— Dublin Airport Passenger (08:57)

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5. Airport Management Perspective: Resilience & Investment

Kenny Jacobs (CEO, DAA – Dublin and Cork Airports) [09:39-12:49]:

• Predicts increasing IT disruptions worldwide, from both cyber and infrastructure faults.
• Airports must test systems regularly (six times a year at Dublin) and build in redundancy – including multiple electricity sources and manual check-in options.
• The global nature of aviation means disruptions often have cross-airport impacts.

Quote:

“Every airport I think around the world will see more and more of this occurring... I think every airport needs to be more paranoid about this kind of occurrence in a healthy way so that you can build in proper resilience and be ready for it. Because ultimately how you respond is what matters most.”
— Kenny Jacobs (09:56)

On Modernization and AI

• Dublin Airport invests in modern systems and regularly tests innovations like AI in baggage screening.
• Advocates for robust, updated systems with built-in redundancy as a partial solution.

Quote:

“We are testing the use of AI in screening bags just to see how does it learn and how efficient it is... I think you will see AI, look at the weather, look at passengers... to make our jobs easier.”
— Kenny Jacobs (12:57)

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6. Air Traffic Control: Systemic and Staffing Problems

UK and US Air Traffic Control Issues

• Case study: UK’s NATS suffered a $135 million loss due to a software glitch, worsened by remote work practices and faulty backup systems.
• In the US, chronic staff shortages and outdated federal systems have led to a reduction in flights and severe delays, especially at key hubs (e.g., Newark, Florida).

Quotes:

“The FAA is about 30% short staffed. So it happens around the country. What it does is it slows the air traffic down.”
— Scott Kirby (United Airlines CEO) (14:33)

“Well, we have here in the US we have an air traffic control system run by, staffed by, managed by the US Federal government that has not really kept it up. I mean, we just don't have enough people working there. It's been mismanaged.”
— Michael Boyd (Boyd Group) (14:54)

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7. The Pilot’s View: Crew and Operational Challenges

Barry Eustace (Consultant & former Virgin Atlantic Captain) [16:33-18:08]:

• Flight crews are challenged by delays, constantly recalculating crew hours and fuel needs.
• Gate closures are usually enforced if passengers cannot make it due to delays; rarely are large numbers stranded from a single software incident, but broad malfunctions can impact many.
• Delays create cumulative disruptions due to the interconnected nature of airline operations.

Quote:

“The knock on effect... can be significant. And of course, you're dealing with a global four-dimensional chessboard here.”
— Barry Eustace (17:38)

What’s Needed?

• Investment in both personnel and the technical systems they rely upon.
• Proper leadership and steady financing are critical to maintaining flight safety and efficiency.

Quote:

“I think the answer is that you have to invest in both personnel and the equipment that supports them. You can't underfund critical flight safety and efficient leadership and management of a system is critical.”
— Barry Eustace (18:08)

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8. Industry Economics and Future Outlook

• Aviation is a low-margin global business: in the past year, industry revenues were $36 billion, but profits were below 4% (21:44).
• Ongoing disruptions threaten both profitability and the vital connectivity air travel provides.
• The episode concludes with a call for investment in reliable, modern tech for the sake of both profits and passenger safety.

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Key Time-stamped Takeaways

• 01:01 – Growing frequency of tech failures at airports
• 05:20 – Why legacy systems persist in aviation
• 06:50 – Best practices and response planning are crucial (Brian Glick)
• 09:56 – “Every airport... will see more and more of this occurring.” (Kenny Jacobs)
• 14:33 – FAA staff shortages slow US air travel (Scott Kirby)
• 17:38 – Pilots face a “global four-dimensional chessboard” of knock-on delays (Barry Eustace)
• 18:08 – Investing in both staff and tech is critical for safe and efficient operations

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Conclusion

The mounting frequency of aviation delays stems primarily from aging infrastructure, insufficient IT investment, staff shortages, and rising cyber threats. While some airports, like Dublin, are prioritizing systemic resilience and technological upgrades—including experiments with AI—much of the world lags behind. Lasting solutions include modernizing IT systems, introducing redundancy, improving staff training and numbers, and embracing proactive crisis management. As the global demand for travel rises, the industry’s ability to modernize and manage increasing complexity will determine whether the skies become more—or less—travel-friendly in the years ahead.

Transcript

[Russell Padmore]

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[Russell Padmore]

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[SAP Concur Representative]

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[SAP Concur Representative]

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[Russell Padmore]

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[Russell Padmore]

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[SAP Concur Representative]

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[Michael O'Leary]

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[Russell Padmore]

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[SAP Concur Representative]

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[Russell Padmore]

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[SAP Concur Representative]

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[Michael O'Leary]

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[SAP Concur Representative]

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[Russell Padmore]

SAP Concur helps your business move forward faster. Learn [e-mail] more people than ever are flying, but airline business travelers or passengers taking a holiday are experiencing more disruption because technology used by aviation keeps failing. Hello, I'm Russell Padmore and Business Daily is focused on computer malfunctions at airports. It for check in or security is crashing more often, forcing airlines to delay or cancel flights.

[SAP Concur Representative]

It is quite disruptive where we can't check passengers in and we've had to cancel flights and then we have to recompense and we have to relocate because obviously when a flight cancels, that plane is then in the wrong place for the next flight.

[Russell Padmore]

The chief executive of two airports in Ireland explains how they have to test their systems several times a year.

[Kenny Jacobs]

Some of these are cyber attacks which impact global aviation systems. Some of them are more local issues. Electricity disturbance is something that's causing knock.

[Russell Padmore]

On systems issues and a staff shortage alongside outdated equipment is disrupting air traffic control systems. Notably in the United States we have.

[Michael O'Leary]

An air traffic control system run by, staffed by, managed by the US Federal government that has not really kept it up. I mean we just don't have enough people working there. It's been mismanaged.

[Russell Padmore]

Business Daily examines why aviation tech is becoming unreliable. Decades ago, flying was luxurious. This is Tokyo, more than 10,000 miles from London. From today, it's only 36 hours away. A BBC documentary from 1953 showing how aviation was pioneering more flights connecting Asia with Europe. But that era of leisure for airline passengers is gone. Today we have to put up with crowded airports and planes. Delays and cancellations because of faulty airline and airport software is testing the patience of passengers more often. As United States Senator Josh Hawley told a group of American airline leaders last December, you guys do appreciate that flying.

[Scott Kirby]

On your airlines is, is a disaster, don't you? I'm slightly amazed by the general attitude of all of you. Flying on your airlines is horrible.

[Russell Padmore]

Disruption to aviation is becoming more common across the world.

[SAP Concur Representative]

Heathrow Airport is warning of delays because of technical problems with its check in and boarding systems. The cause hasn't been given, but cyber attacks have caused major issues at other European airports. Significant delays here at Sydney airport and in Brisbane and in Melbourne. And that's the flow on effect from yesterday when we had a staff shortage in Brisbane, a shortage of air traffic control.

[Russell Padmore]

The flights here from Los Angeles going to Newark today, they've all been about two and a half to three hours late. Some passengers facing disruptions seek advice from specialists like Jennifer Bradnam, a travel counsellor.

[SAP Concur Representative]

I think it still sticks in people's heads that, oh, I arrived at Miami or I arrived in London or I arrived in Sydney and it took me three hours to get through immigration. It's awful. You know, the last thing when they want to do when they've had a long haul flight is stand in immigration for three hours because that's how long it's taken for either lack of staff or when a computer system goes down or the backup that they've got will only run very, very slowly and it just caused massive congestion.

[Russell Padmore]

Do you think ultimately the cost of losing passengers or having to compensate people for delays will force airports and airlines to invest much more in their staff and maybe more importantly when it comes to the technology, more reliable IT systems.

[SAP Concur Representative]

Yes. Where we can't check passengers in and we've had to cancel flights and then we have to recompense and we have to relocate because obviously when a flight cancels, that plane is then in the wrong place for the next flight. It's not just that one flight, it's the knock on effect. You know, for several flights after that. The cost of that to airlines is huge. You know, we need to stop this from happening because airlines will go bust eventually.

[Russell Padmore]

So why do airline, airport and air traffic control IT systems keep breaking down? Brian Glick, editor in chief of Computer Weekly, says the complex technology in use is out of date.

[Brian Glick]

Some of these airports may be using software that was first developed 10, 20 years ago. Perhaps in some cases even longer. There's a huge amount of information that's being shared and transferred around with lots of other organizations, airlines who need to be interacting with their IT system as well. You've got retailers, baggage handlers, caterers, fuel suppliers, all of whom are having to connect into this extremely complex IT infrastructure.

[Russell Padmore]

Who is actually at fault, is it the airports or the airlines for these IT failures?

[Brian Glick]

They're constantly having to add new functionalities. And what you often find when one of these big system crashes takes place is somebody overnight has introduced and update some software and it hasn't quite worked as they thought it would. They have to try and undo that update and that takes time. This process of software maintenance and software updates is probably the single most common cause for the sort of IT crashes that we've seen impacting lots of airports.

[Russell Padmore]

If it is such a costly problem, why are they not replacing these faulty systems very quickly?

[Brian Glick]

If the risk of replacing an older system that generally still works is greater than the risk and the cost involved in building an entirely new system, they're going to stick with what they've got.

[Russell Padmore]

What do you think is the solution to prevent these IT failures?

[Brian Glick]

You will never get a 100% perfect IT system. The key thing for airlines, airports obviously is to make sure that they're following best practices for how they run their software, how they run their systems, how they develop new software and add on, and to have a plan in place to make sure that if something like that does go wrong, they're able to recover their systems and keep the airports running as quickly and as smoothly as possible.

[Russell Padmore]

Brian Glick, editor in chief of Computer Weekly. And I'm Russell Padmore with Business Daily from the BBC Limu Cable.

[Kenny Jacobs]

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[Russell Padmore]

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[Russell Padmore]

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[Kenny Jacobs]

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[Russell Padmore]

Another aircraft landing here at Dublin Airport. Every year more than 3 million passengers travel through this Irish airport to destinations in Asia, North Africa, Europe, the Middle east and North America. So what do the travelers here in Dublin's Terminal 2 make of the increasing chances of delays caused by faulty aviation software or other problems like airports suffering a power cut?

[Kenny Jacobs]

It's frustrating. Oh well, it happened. What can I do about it at this point?

[Russell Padmore]

Stage There was one delayed flight in this year, this was in Germany and this was because of a technical issue of the airplane. We're after coming from Johannesburg and we had one delay. Did you get much of an explanation? We just got told that the flight was delayed. We didn't find out why it's the later flight that you book tends to have a knock on effect. So if you're flying anywhere 9pm out.

[SAP Concur Representative]

Of somewhere, you know that there's going to be delays.

[Russell Padmore]

The IT systems seem to be failing more these days in airports and if you're trying to travel somewhere, that's an example of something that could make you really frustrated, surely. Absolutely. You know, between weather and technology, delays are more and more prevalent. And when you do travel you've got to a lot extra time and just be patient. I travel a lot for work and.

[Michael O'Leary]

I miss a lot of connecting flights as a result.

[Russell Padmore]

When you are delayed, are you just resigned to the fact it's just part of traveling in the modern world?

[SAP Concur Representative]

Yes, you just have to be patient and wait.

[Kenny Jacobs]

Passengers are very anxious to get to.

[Russell Padmore]

Where they're going so they expect no problems.

[Kenny Jacobs]

Just as if they're getting in their.

[Russell Padmore]

Car to go to work on a Monday morning. Just a few minutes walk away from the terminal and I'm in the corporate offices of daa, the company that operates Dublin and Cork airports. Kenny Jacobs, the chief executive, tells me airports should expect more IT problems.

[Kenny Jacobs]

Every airport I think around the world will see more and more of this occurring. Some of these are cyber attacks which impact global aviation systems. Some of them are more local issues. Electricity disturbance is something that's causing knock on systems issues. So everyone is seeing more of it. I think every airport needs to be more paranoid about this kind of occurrence in a healthy way so that you can build in proper resilience and be ready for it. Because ultimately how you respond is what matters most.

[Russell Padmore]

What kind of backup do you have here then?

[Kenny Jacobs]

We have three supplies of electricity here at Dublin airport. We have three substations supplying us and three substations supplying Cork airport. We also have diesel generators on site. So very good resilience on the electricity side, good resilience on the system side. But you have to respond quickly. You have to have people ready to be deployed if the systems do go down. So that for example, where you scan your boarding passes before you go through security, if that goes down, we manually check boarding passes. That's something that happened in the past 12 months.

[Russell Padmore]

An airport somewhere else in the world can have a technology outage and Suddenly there's the knock on effect that you suffer here. It's a global problem, isn't it?

[Kenny Jacobs]

We're all familiar what happened with Heathrow in London in the UK recently. It had a loss of power supply. For some reason their backup diesel generators didn't kick in and they made a choice to close the airport. There is huge connectivity between Heath and Dublin and Cork airports. So yes, people were stranded.

[Russell Padmore]

What about air traffic control problems? They seem to be more common, I.

[Kenny Jacobs]

Think here in Europe. The biggest issue though is air traffic control. Strikes and go slows generally on continental Europe, generally French air traffic controllers. So it's more industrial relations than it is systems issues. I think generally. Look, we test ourselves all the time. Six times a year we will run simulated crisis exercises, we will simulate extreme weather, we will simulate terror attack, massive IT issues and just see what do we do in the event of this and can we keep the airport operating. Are you up to scratch with the latest things that could impact your operation?

[Russell Padmore]

Do you think the aviation industry has failed to invest enough in reliable technology? For example, how old are the systems here at Dublin airport?

[Kenny Jacobs]

I'm confident that the systems here are the right systems. They're not that old, they're new. And we continue to invest some, probably should do a bit of catch up with the systems that they have. I think the global systems need to talk to each other because we're living in a very, very global and open world and travel is travel. People travel all over the world. But I think you will find some airports and some airports are ahead and some are behind with the technology choices that they've made.

[Russell Padmore]

What do you think is the solution to these constant IT failures at airports around the world? Is it more investment modernizing the infrastructure of the technology?

[Kenny Jacobs]

That's part of it. It's definitely have newer systems, test those systems, have redundancy built into those systems so that if it falls over, you have another site where you can continue to operate and then just keep testing.

[Russell Padmore]

Your airport artificial intelligence AI, where do you see it having a role in the future of the tech around airports?

[Kenny Jacobs]

We are testing the use of AI in screening bags just to see how does it learn and how efficient it is and how accurate is it. So I think you will see AI, look at the weather, look at passengers. I think you will see it deployed in every way just to make our jobs easier.

[Russell Padmore]

Airlines and airports are also being challenged by technical problems at air traffic control systems around the world. Two years ago, the computer at the UK's National Air Traffic Services Operator Nats stopped working because of a data glitch a few months ago. The final report into the chaos revealed the industry lost $135 million. And it took longer to fix the problem because the technical experts were working from home. Michael o', Leary, the chief executive at Ryanair, which carries more passengers than any other in Europe, was annoyed. We find it incredible that the NAS system collapsed. The NAS backup system was running on the same computer. So guess what? That collapsed. Their engineers who were designed to restore the system weren't on site because they were working remotely. In the United States, a shortage of air traffic control staff and problems with IT systems have caused delays, notably in Florida and Newark, New Jersey, one of three major airports for New York. Ed Bastian is the chief executive of Delta.

[Michael O'Leary]

It takes longer in our schedule to fly from Atlanta to, to LaGuardia than it did in the 1950s.

[Russell Padmore]

United Airlines has reduced the number of flights into Newark to help air traffic cope. Scott Kirby is United's chief executive.

[Scott Kirby]

The FAA is about 30% short staffed. So it happens around the country. What it does is it slows the air traffic down. Florida has been one of the worst hit areas in the last few years and we need to get the controller staffing back to full.

[Russell Padmore]

Michael Boyd is the president of Boyd Group, an aviation consultancy in Vail, Colorado. He's been telling me that political mismanagement is to blame for air traffic control problems.

[Michael O'Leary]

Well, we have here in the US we have an air traffic control system run by, staffed by, managed by the US Federal government that has not really kept it up. I mean, we just don't have enough people working there. It's been mismanaged. The airlines themselves, they're the victims of it. So are their passengers not really the cause of it.

[Russell Padmore]

Some airlines have been cutting flights in and out of certain airports in the US in particular because of these delays. And that's going to impact their revenues.

[Michael O'Leary]

United airlines cutting about 35 flights a day, that's 10% of their operation at Newark, which is a big hub for them. So they're losing a lot of money and they know that and they've been fighting with the government to fix this. But keep in mind, we have a hub and spoke system. We have a big network. So when Newark has a problem, or even if Austin, Texas has a problem, it ripples throughout the entire North American continent.

[Russell Padmore]

Why do it issues just keep disrupting air travel. Has the industry maybe failed to invest more in better technology?

[Michael O'Leary]

Big airlines invested enormous amounts in technology to move their airplanes. But once they get in the sky. It's the FAA that controls it. That's where the problem is. Take a look at Newark. The economic impact of losing 10 to 15% of the flights going in out of there is going to be huge. Just to that airport and that region.

[Russell Padmore]

The aircraft trundles down the Runway to take off and if there's been a long delay, the passengers will be pleased to finally be on their way. But how do the crew in the cockpit feel about disruption caused by technology failures? Barry Eustace is the principal consultant at 6S and a former captain with Virgin Atlantic Airways.

[Barry Eustace]

We are thinking constantly in terms of are the crew likely to go out of hours? Will we have enough fuel to taxi out and complete our flight plan?

[Russell Padmore]

If passengers are stuck in security in an airport, maybe because of staff shortages or they're facing problems at the check in because the IT system has crashed, do you continue to wait for them or make a decision to fly off on time, abandoning those people?

[Barry Eustace]

Operational staff at the airport will take the decision to close the gate. Once that's happened, then the passengers on board will be the ones who depart.

[Russell Padmore]

So there could be dozens of people abandoned at the airport and then that's an extra cost for the airline, isn't it?

[Barry Eustace]

It would be unusual to leave a large number of passengers behind due to something like a software problem with security. If it's a significant problem, then it's likely to affect not just one airline, but most airlines departing at that time slot.

[Russell Padmore]

If you don't go on time, there is the prospect that the next leg of the journey for that flight, which may be to an entirely different region, will also be delayed. There is a knock on effect.

[Barry Eustace]

The knock on effect and the reactionary delay can be significant. And of course, you're dealing with a global four dimensional chessboard here. The airplane might be going, for example, from London to Los Angeles and then back again, but then be scheduled to go to Hong Kong. There are interconnecting passengers. Anecdotally, there appear to be more critical infrastructure software errors occurring.

[Russell Padmore]

So what do you think is the solution? How are we going to get airports and airlines operating more efficiently?

[Barry Eustace]

I think the answer is that you have to invest in both personnel and the equipment that supports them. You can't underfund critical flight safety and efficient leadership and management of a system is critical.

[Russell Padmore]

According to the global airlines body IATA, the industry earned revenues of $36 billion in the last year, but the profit margin was below 4%. So it's obvious anything adding to costs like technology failures causing flight delays and cancellations, then business becomes very challenging. Airports and airlines are a vital part of economic infrastructure, so anything that threatens to send the industry diving into a tailspin must be avoided. Aviation technology, from radar to check in systems, must be reliable, not just for profits, but also safety. More investment in updated tech should mean less chaos in airports and clear blue skies ahead for airlines. I'm Russell Padmore, making a smooth landing for this edition of Business Daily.