Taking stock: Is AI burning cash?

Summary

Business Daily – Taking Stock: Is AI burning cash?

Host: Will Bain, BBC World Service
Guests: Na Pham (Journalist, Hanoi, Vietnam) & Takara Small (Tech columnist, Toronto, Canada)
Release Date: July 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Will Bain dives into the week’s biggest business stories, focusing on the massive cash burn in the AI sector, contrasting tech investment climates between Asia and the West, regulatory pressures on tech giants, climate change’s economic footprint, rampant online scams powered by AI, and renewed tensions over North American tariffs. Supported by vivid anecdotes and firsthand experiences from Na Pham and Takara Small, the discussion examines whether AI’s multi-billion dollar investments are truly sustainable, how global tech rivalry is shifting, and what it all means for ordinary consumers and investors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Viral Phenomena & Setting the Tone

• The panel kicks off with the global obsession over “Jimothy,” a viral raccoon from Seattle, juxtaposing it humorously with more serious themes.
  • Takara Small: "Garbage pandas hold a very sweet, sweet spot in many people's hearts...the cherry on top of the sundae." [01:56]
  • Na Pham: "It's a new competition to my favorite pick-me Hippo the Mu dance in Thailand. So I got it as screen saver." [02:11]

2. AI Investment: Spending Spree or Bubble?

• Massive cash outflows: Google/Alphabet’s latest earnings underscored AI’s costliness, with a potential $6 billion negative free cash flow after AI investments.
  • Will Bain: "Minus $6 billion potentially hit...for a company that's making, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars a quarter." [03:26]
  • Takara Small: "Google Alphabet had a standout quarter and yet you're still seeing investors...pull back because...there are billions of dollars going into the AI space and we're not confident that we're going to see those returns." [02:55]
  • Caution prevails among capital markets; investors are increasingly uncertain about long-term returns and sustainability.
• Global investment contrasts:
  • Na Pham: "People in Asia actually been familiarized themselves with AI much, much earlier...maybe we should take a stop and look back, see how it goes." [04:02]
  • Takara Small: "I was in parts of Asia late last year...just seeing how much investment, how much support AI has in that part of the world versus North America is also a little bit of a shock." [06:12]
  • Asia, particularly Taiwan, is rapidly deploying AI in everyday life, while Europe and North America are more cautious and less visibly advanced.
• Winners and losers: Chipmakers like TSMC (Taiwan) are viewed favorably due to their hardware dominance for AI, while American “big tech” faces skepticism over the size and efficacy of their spending.
  • Na Pham: "TSMC stock is actually rising...they may raise chip prices by 5 to 10% next year. So now people suddenly think that it's a good idea to invest even more." [05:24]
  • Takara Small: "The people doing the plumbing of AI...the chip makers, the people building out the data centers, investors seem to want really big on them...the overarching companies, the Googles, the Metaz...perhaps less so." [05:53]

3. Regulation and Pushback

• European Commission hits Google with an €890 million ($1B+) fine for unfair practices—favoring their own services over third parties.
  • Will Bain: "Regulators...an extra bit of pressure as well as that pressure to spend on the AI." [07:03]
• Governments in both Europe and Canada are increasing investment in alternatives to big US tech to reduce dependency.

4. AI, Scams, and Security

• Explosion in AI-enabled scams, including deeply personal accounts:
  • Na Pham (Villain of the week): "My own mother got scammed a lot of money and it just happened last week...people who scammed my mother actually used AI to that I was calling her." [14:12, 14:35]
  • Takara Small: "There should be a lot of pressure from governments...they invest in protecting, you know, the average person...Anyone can use someone's voice to imitate them...this is going to get worse, not better, as AI improves over time." [15:08]
• UN estimates losses from online scams at $88.3 billion last year [14:35]

5. Climate, Economy & Business

• Wildfires in Canada devastate regions and disrupt businesses:
  • Takara Small: "Every province and territory in my country has wildfires. Right now, over a million hectares of my country is burning...we’re seeing businesses burned to the ground. And I think all of this fire season is starting to become the norm." [10:08]
  • Investment in infrastructure to handle extreme weather is described as a top economic priority across Canada and Vietnam.

6. Tariffs: Back With a Vengeance

• President Trump’s latest threat of 50% tariffs on Canadian imports (wine, cement, ice hockey sticks, etc.) is seen as pointed and politically charged.
  • Takara Small: "It felt a little personal because some of these tariffs are on hockey equipment and down jackets. It just seems a little pointed." [20:09]
  • Trade skirmishes are already reshaping consumer habits (e.g., Ontario’s state-run stores yanking American liquor from shelves).
  • Both Canada and Vietnam are pushing hard to diversify trade relationships to reduce US dependency, with recognition that tariffs hurt domestic consumers (in the US) as well.
  • Na Pham: "Vietnam, of course, would be back in the crosshairs, you'd suspect...the government here has been bending backwards to try to please the US about their demands." [22:02]

7. Markets, Uncertainty, & What’s Next

• Unpredictability in policy—markets are “holding their breath” amid volatility, inflation, and shock events:
  • Na Pham: "Trump is so unpredictable...we’re all kind of, you know, holding our breath, expecting their decisions that can actually change overnight as well. So it's all in the air at the moment." [24:30]
• The AI investment story, central bank (US Federal Reserve) policy, company earnings (Microsoft, Meta, Apple), and ongoing tariff spats are all flagged as key issues for the coming week.

8. Memorable Panel Moments

• Na Pham’s villain: AI-powered scam centers, after her mother is victimized.
• Takara Small’s hero: "The humble ketchup chip," a passionate (and funny) ode to a uniquely Canadian snack—and debate ensues about flavor, quality, and dignity of eating ketchup-flavored crisps. [16:08–17:08]
• Lively debate on whether shorts in the office are hero or villain material, referencing Tokyo’s “cool biz” push and international differences in office dress codes.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Google Alphabet had a standout quarter and yet you're still seeing investors...pull back because...there are billions of dollars going into the AI space and we're not confident that we're going to see those returns."
  — Takara Small [02:55]

• "Minus $6 billion potentially hit for a company that's making, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars a quarter."
  — Will Bain [03:26]

• "TSMC stock is actually rising...I haven't bought any when I was in Taiwan...I could do it directly with tsmc."
  — Na Pham [05:24]

• "It's hard to describe unless you've actually visited. But I agree, it's like traveling through, you know, a mirror to another world."
  — Takara Small on the East/West AI adoption divide [06:47]

• "People who scammed my mother actually used AI...to imitate that I was calling her. So obviously AI in the wrong hands."
  — Na Pham [14:35]

• "This is a technology that in the wrong hands can do immense harm...Anyone can use someone's voice to imitate them, to be able to separate them from their hard earned money."
  — Takara Small [15:08]

• "My hero of the week is the humble ketchup chip...it illustrates how greatness...can show up in small and unexpected ways."
  — Takara Small [16:08]

• "It felt a little personal because some of these tariffs are on hockey equipment and down jackets. It just seems a little pointed."
  — Takara Small [20:09]

• "In some ways, so nonsensical. I mean, the US domestic consumers actually pay a lot of taxes on behalf of exporters."
  — Na Pham [23:18]

• "Trump is so unpredictable...we’re all kind of, you know, holding our breath, expecting their decisions that can actually change overnight as well."
  — Na Pham [24:30]

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Important Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 01:11 – Introduction, “Jimothy the raccoon” viral trend
• 02:55 – AI spending, Google/Alphabet’s caution-flavored earnings, investor skepticism
• 05:24 – Semiconductor boom, TSMC’s rise, Asia’s AI head start
• 07:03 – Regulatory action: EU fines Google for unfair practices
• 08:17 – Tesla’s profit drop; tech sector’s cycle of winners and losers
• 09:39–10:45 – Canadian wildfires, economic impact, changing business norms due to climate
• 14:12–15:37 – AI scams, Na’s personal account, $88 billion in scam losses
• 16:08–17:19 – Hero: ketchup chips; playful but passionate snack debate
• 17:41–18:15 – Villain/hero? Shorts in Tokyo office dress code
• 19:18–24:41 – Tariffs: Trump’s new 50% threats, Canadian & Vietnamese trade strategies, US consumer costs
• 24:41–24:55 – Preview next week: US Fed decision, more tech earnings, ongoing tariff drama

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Summary

This week, Business Daily confronts "the drama of AI burning cash"—spotlighting massive, uncertain, and increasingly controversial investment by global tech titans like Google and Microsoft, and the growing sense among investors and regulators that the pace may be overheated. While companies laying the hardware foundation of AI (like TSMC) are still riding high, the gap between East Asian and Western approaches to AI is widening, sparking questions about long-term strategy and returns.

Real-world impacts—whether billion-dollar EU fines, devastating wildfires, or the unrelenting rise in AI-powered scams ripping off ordinary people—highlight the high-stakes, fast-paced, and sometimes brittle world that underpins AI-driven economies. Tariffs are back at center stage, with North American trade hostilities showing how quickly global markets can flip, upending business plans, consumer habits, and political relations alike.

Against the backdrop of these weighty issues, the show’s convivial spirit shines—whether via trading stories of viral raccoons, impassioned snack debates, or the personal toll of scams—a reminder that the costs and risks at the heart of today's AI boom are as much about people as about money or megabytes.

Transcript

[Will Bain]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

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[Na Pham]

A fake email cost me my dream home. After I sent my personal information to

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my entire 401k thinking someone stole my identity.

[Na Pham]

A fake email cost me my dream home. After I sent my personal information to

[Takara Small]

a scammer, my AI agent wired thousands to an account I'd never seen.

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[Will Bain]

Hello, I'm Will Bain and welcome to Business Daily, where today we're taking stock of a week in which a raccoon with a shortened spine seemed to completely take over the Internet. Yes, Jimothy, the Seattle raccoon has spawned artwork, baked goods, and even that song. And we here today are gonna desperately strive for even a percent. I think of his popularity with our panel. Na Phan back with us, journalist in Hanoi, Vietnam, and Takara, small tech columnist joining us from Toronto, Canada. Great to have you both back with us. Takara being someone who's kind of in the capital of raccoons, has he been filling up your feed this week?

[Takara Small]

It has. And I will say garbage pandas hold a very sweet sweet spot in many people's hearts. So seeing that it's managed to capture attention south of the border, it's like, you know, the cherry on top of the sundae.

[Will Bain]

Na, has he gone global? Jimothy the raccoon. Have you seen him in Vietnam?

[Na Pham]

Yes. Yes, I saw. And it's a new competition to my favorite pick me Hippo the Mu dance in Thailand. So I got it as screen saver.

[Will Bain]

Now I have the new raccoon viral animals. Definitely the heroes. We need plenty more from Nar and Takara with us throughout the program today as we take stock on the business week. Yeah, been a big week of tech earnings out on the New York Stock Exchange, hasn't it? Some of the biggest companies on the planet revealing their results. And Takara, very much your beat tech as well as trash pandas. Massive, massive spending that these companies were announcing, particularly Google or their parent company, Alphabet, I guess the one really grabbing attention at the back end of this week.

[Takara Small]

It's been interesting to watch, to be honest. Google Alphabet had a standout quarter and yet you're still seeing investors who are cautious, you're seeing people pull back because as you mentioned, there are billions of dollars going into the AI space and we're not confident that we're going to see those returns. And just here in Canada, we've announced a lot of money on data centers, on propping up businesses. And this all comes at a time where even the average person is saying, do we want this type of investment in AI? How does this help society? How does this improve our economies and the numbers.

[Will Bain]

Incredible. So this idea of free cash flow to cars and that's the kind of money they've got left over after they've announced their investments, salaries and keeping the lights on and all that kind of stuff. Minus $6 billion potentially hit for a company that's making, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars a quarter.

[Takara Small]

Exactly. And I think that's why you're seeing capital spending plans, you're seeing a lot of concerns around partnerships and trades. And let's be honest, a lot of the dominant investment theme that we're seeing from investors and critics is focused on how these companies are going to stay competitive, especially with some of the innovation we're seeing in Asia. How is this sustainable? Sustainable long term?

[Na Pham]

Yes, definitely. I hear a lot of concerns actually about the markets, the volatility that it may actually bring in. Last year I met some people from the UK in Taiwan and I was so surprised at their knowledge and their understanding of the AI markets. Not as much as people in Taiwan, obviously. People in Asia actually been familiarized themselves with AI much, much earlier. But now we kind of think that maybe we should take a stop and look back, see how it goes.

[Will Bain]

Yet a car. Investors seem to be suggesting maybe there was a need for a pause to Alphabet shares down 4% after the close yesterday. Is there finally the first sign of a tiny bit of cold feet about just the scale of this spending and also the borrowing that's going with it too?

[Takara Small]

I think we're starting to see that we're seeing cold water thrown on this. Despite the fact we're seeing some companies have quite profitable returns, people are still fleeing. And the fact that just recently we saw a Little bit of a drawback from some of the stock stellar chip companies that have seen rallies of over 100%. People are rethinking their investment. They're rethinking what is the profit and what does this mean for the average consumer.

[Will Bain]

Well, we've seen a bit of that now, haven't we? I know you're in Hanoi at the moment, but you're between Hanoi and Taiwan as well. And tsmc, one of the biggest players in chips, had some interesting news, kind of to exactly what Takara was talking about this week.

[Na Pham]

Yes, TSMC stock is actually rising at the moment. I think it's at the back of their announcement that they may raise chip prices by 5 to 10% next year. So now people suddenly think that it's a good idea to invest even more in that already very, very successful company and successful stock. I'm beating myself at the moment actually, because I haven't bought any when I was in Taiwan, when I, when I actually could do it directly with tsmc.

[Will Bain]

So are those the two flips, Takara, from your beat covering these companies? The people sort of doing the plumbing of AI, the chip makers, the people building out the data centers, investors seem to want really big on them, the overarching companies, the Googles, the Metaz, et cetera, spending the billions on that, perhaps less so perhaps more of that cold water you chatted about.

[Takara Small]

Exactly. And I must say that I was in parts of Asia late last year, including Taiwan, and just seeing how much investment, how much support AI has in that part of the world versus North America is also a little bit of a shock. And I think that speaks to what we're seeing in investment as well in North America. People I don't think are as invested.

[Na Pham]

Yeah, I mean, that's such a difference, right? I mean, in Taiwan, you can see AI everywhere. I mean, you get served by AI, you've got everything is AI related. And now going back to Europe, for example, it's like, oh, what a.

[Takara Small]

It's odd. It's. It's an odd feeling. It's definitely odd to see a country and area adopt new technology that quickly and some hesitancy in other parts of the world, it's hard to describe unless you've actually visited. But I agree, it's like traveling through, you know, a mirror to another world.

[Will Bain]

And that perhaps played out here in Europe this week with off the back of those Alphabet results, the European Commission, which is basically the sort of executive bit of the 27 nation European Union finding Google 890 million euros so in excess of $1 billion at the moment over what it believes are unfair practices. So saying that Google gave precedent to things like its own services around shopping, hotel transport over third parties, that to kind of been a big row as well. And particularly with Apple also been in the sites as well. You're seeing the regulators SW around these companies to an extra bit of pressure as well as that Pressure to spend on the AI.

[Takara Small]

Exactly. You know those quote unquote synergies that some in the industry like to reference have been a talking point. And I think that's also why we're seeing governments in Europe and also in Canada invest in competitive services technologies trying to broaden out the reliance that has existed for so long on the big tech.

[Will Bain]

And we should probably mention one more firm this week. Tesla been overshadowed. Elon Musk's carmaker with that kind of SpaceX IPO that we've talked about on the program before. But exactly to NAS point about the race and the technological change in East Asia. Massive profit fall for Tesla in their financial results this week. Takara.

[Takara Small]

I mean it's interesting to see how tech companies at different stages of this AI cycle are responding. You know, what the winners are, what the losers are. It's hard to know though what the long term plan is because as we've seen this is such a volatile industry right now. Who's winning this quarter may not be on top the next.

[Na Pham]

I know lots of my friends actually have invested in tech companies. Some of them are really, really happy now, but some are really worried. I mean going back to that brutality point, it's still pretty much in the unknown areas, isn't it? I mean people are expecting more breakthroughs or more developments that they might meet with some kind of surprise or disappointment even.

[Will Bain]

Yeah, absolutely. Tesla shares down 5% this week. the time we are all gathered to chat. Be interesting going to keep that kind of conversation I think about whether Elon Musk in a stock market listed way will merge Tesla and SpaceX which has been the rattle on Wall street ever since the announcement about SpaceX. Should we turn to some home territory? I know obviously been a busy week for you on your actual beat to Cara in terms of the tech stocks that we've been chatting about. But we were just chatting with you as we got you up before we started recording today about the smoke from these terrible wildfires in the state of Ontario and Canada that have been sweeping across Toronto itself. Where are we as we speak?

[Takara Small]

So we're in a much better place than we were earlier in the week, at one point, Toronto had the worst air quality in the world, and we saw some of that smoke find its way into the US but thankfully we have firefighters, we have governments that are getting some advantage and it's under somewhat control.

[Will Bain]

Has it had an impact directly on businesses? I mean, I was reading earlier in the week, the cbc, the national broadcaster in Canada, talking about people being evacuated right, from various bits, even of the suburbs of Toronto. Is that right?

[Takara Small]

Yes. I think it's very hard for people who aren't in Canada to understand how devastating this is. Every province and territory in my country has wildfires. Right now, over a million hectares of my country is burning. You know, that's the size of Cyprus, that's over a million football fields. So we're seeing people evacuated despite the smoke clearing, we're seeing businesses burned to the ground. And I think all of this fire season is starting to become the norm, if that makes sense. I mean, every year it seems like the fires get deadlier, bigger, and we need to have more quality alerts than that before.

[Will Bain]

Investment in dealing with extreme weather. Na, has that been a talking point in the two countries you work in?

[Na Pham]

We've been always dealing with extreme weather. So, I mean, that is the biggest investment I think we should make, really, to cope with typhoons and earthquakes and what, you know. You know. Yeah, it's very, very kind of difficult time at the moment, especially with climate change. But back to Canada, I mean, I think it's. It's quite a big lack of sympathy when the US Keeps talking about slapping tariffs on Canadian goods.

[Takara Small]

I mean, it's been, you know, many people in the country are going through a lot, and then you have a lot of rhetoric around the US being invaded by Canadian smoke and our willful negligence. It doesn't boost spirits. And it sometimes feels a little bit challenging because just early last year, Canada was sending firefighters, we were sending planes to help with California fires. So all of that adds to a situation that's already stressful and tense.

[Will Bain]

Well, we're going to talk tariffs a little bit later on in the program there, but we send our best, obviously, to all of those dealing with the fires in Canada and of course, in Spain and Scotland as well. Here in Europe, we've had a similar problem too. Seems an issue that politicians need to put a bit higher up on their agendas again, as NA was saying, doesn't he? You're listening to Business daily from the BBC World Service.

[Ad Voice]

I cashed out my entire 401k thinking someone stole my identity.

[Na Pham]

A Fake email cost me my dream home. After I sent my personal information to

[Takara Small]

a scammer, my AI agent wired thousands to an account I'd never seen.

[Ad Voice]

When billions of people feel unsafe, that's no longer a security problem. It's an economic one. At Gen, we're building the trust layer for a more fearless planet with products and technologies from our global brands, Norton, Lifelock, Avast, and Moneylion. See it in [e-mail] finding great candidates

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[Will Bain]

where today we're taking stock of the Business Week with the journalist Na Pham in Hanoi, Vietnam and Takara Small in Toronto, Canada. As I say, we're going to talk tariffs, I guess, pretty much perfectly placed, aren't they? One of the biggest exporting nations in the world. And as the guys were just joking about Canada, once again, back in the firing line, it seems, when it comes to President Trump and his tariff policy. But first of all, got to that time of the week where we ask our guests for their heroes and villains of the business week. And now you've got a particularly pernicious one, something we've talked about on Business Daily in the past. These scam centers.

[Na Pham]

That's right. I'm going to be quite personal here because my own mother got scammed a lot of money and it just happened last week. Absolutely gutted. And so my villain for this week is those people who run scam centers.

[Will Bain]

This is on an industrial scale. We're not just talking about a couple of people in a bedroom trying their luck with the more vulnerable people. Are we here? I mean, these are basically business operations.

[Na Pham]

Definitely. A new report from the UN office on drugs and crime said that online scams actually now cost victims an estimated $88.3 billion last year. And you know, people who scammed my mother actually use AI to that I was calling her. So obviously AI in the wrong hands.

[Will Bain]

We always joking, aren't we, on these programs about regulators racing to catch up against what this technology can be used for if it falls into the wrong hands. And clearly this is souping up the ability of these people to scam people right around the world.

[Takara Small]

This is a technology that in the wrong hands can do immense harm. One of the things that I talk about and I write about a lot is that there should be a lot of pressure from governments to make sure that these tech companies provide solutions, support, and let's be honest, they invest in protecting, you know, the average person. Anyone can use someone's voice to imitate them, to be able to separate them from their hard earned money. And this is going to get worse, not better, as AI improves over time.

[Will Bain]

Yeah, pretty worthy villain. I think of the business week, as we say best to nas mum. And if you do want to learn more about these scan centers and how they work, do you go back through the Business Daily podcast archives? Because Ed Butler in particular has done a lot of really interesting work on this when he and Gideon Long went out to East Asia a year or so. If you skim back through or put something around that kind of wording through a search engine, you will be able to find our programs on that issue. Should we try and cheer ourselves up a bit with a hero of the week? Because, Takara, you've gone for a humble yet mighty hero for the week.

[Takara Small]

It's going to sound odd, listeners, please bear with me, but my hero of the week is the humble ketchup chip. I think it illustrates how greatness, it can show up in small and unexpected ways. And that can be snack size. Ketchup chips are, you know, snack choices.

[Will Bain]

So are we literally talking about chips, crisps, depending on what you call them around the world, that are ketchup flavored?

[Takara Small]

Yes, chips, crisps, they're ketchup flavored. But the thing is, in Canada, you can get like almost a dozen different varieties. Like there's Double Crunch, there's spicy, there's sweet and tangy and ruffled. So we have more variety than the UK has. And ever since the World cup, there have been a lot of people who have gone online to disparage the amazing ketchup chip. So rethink that.

[Na Pham]

Everyone.

[Takara Small]

Try it.

[Will Bain]

Now you sound like you might be one of those disparages.

[Na Pham]

No, I draw. I draw the line over that.

[Will Bain]

Even a spicy one.

[Na Pham]

No ketchup anything? No.

[Takara Small]

Oh, my friend, please try it. It is so good. Yes, it's vinegary. It has a slightly different aftertaste. I don't think I'm selling this actually quite well. It is good.

[Na Pham]

Donate to Jimothy Big ketchup chips.

[Will Bain]

Sign up to Kara Small. Now you need her. I don't know whether this one a hero or a villain. You guys tell me with the BBC. We covered this earlier in the week on a lot of our programs. I'm sure people have heard this story about the round where the shorts should be worn in offices in Tokyo. I just wondered, where do you guys stand? Nah, hero. Villain shorts in the office.

[Na Pham]

Definitely villain.

[Takara Small]

I'm okay with it. I think if they're inappropriate length, it's, you know, climate change.

[Will Bain]

Right. So no Paul Mescal, the actor with his really short shorts. None of that business.

[Takara Small]

No, that's a little too far. That's on the Runway. That's not in the office. But I'm okay with it. Is that. Am I in the.

[Will Bain]

You're definitely in the minority in Tokyo office.

[Na Pham]

Maybe Canadian men do shave their legs.

[Takara Small]

No, no, definitely not.

[Will Bain]

Well, this round going on Tokyo cool biz was what the governor had introduced. It has been a major backlash, though, with women in particular very unhappy about, as NA says, hairy legs out there. I'm not sure anybody wants to see. I'm extremely ginger, so mine are also dangerously white. I think I might blind people as a northern European. So there would be kind of some sort of strobe warning perhaps as well needed in the office if I got mine out. But let us know business daily BBC.co.uk is the email and you can find that piece on the BBC pages of our website. Let's turn to tariffs then. The guys teed it up a little earlier, didn't we? It's been a kind of bit of a hiatus, hasn't it really, for the this story? And then suddenly out of nowhere, it's boomeranged back into the news. This week, President Trump threatening Canada and Takara with a 50% tariff on imports, including wine, cement, even ice hockey sticks. The reason he says the country has treated the US unfairly. In all fairness to them, they need us to survive. Without us, there's no way they can survive.

[Na Pham]

So.

[Will Bain]

But They've been very, very tough, tough over a period of the last 50 years, actually. Yeah. President Trump saying in fact he thought they'd been taken advantage of for years in the United States and threatened to bring those tariffs in in the next 30 days. Canada's Prime Minister Mark Carney responded saying he's looking at all options.

[Ad Voice]

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[Will Bain]

Takara, a bit of a nightmare for the Canadian government, this wanging back into the news again, I'm guessing.

[Takara Small]

Yes, and it felt a little personal because some of these tariffs are on hockey equipment and down jackets. It just seems a little pointed. But again, this is a new round of tariffs. We've experienced quite a few of them, but let's be honest, it's definitely situated because of the trade pact that's being renewed between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico. This is a tactic and hopefully it doesn't really come to pass.

[Will Bain]

And yet we've heard pressure, haven't we, through just public choice, really, in Canada. Takara I saw as this news was getting announced earlier in the week straight in my inbox, a lot of kind of pressure groups in the United States, particularly those in the booze index industry. For example, people who represent the bourbon whiskey sector, really alarmed that President Trump was sort of ramping this back up again because they want it dialed back. They're already seeing Canadian customers make choices around this stuff, just purely around the rhetoric, let alone before more tariffs are in force.

[Takara Small]

It's unusual to see Canadians have this type of relationship with the U.S. but ever since the tariffs started, Canadians have opted out of buying some US Products and booze is one of them. In fact, you had within my province, the government Yank American booze, vodka, bourbon whiskey off the shelves because these are,

[Will Bain]

these are state run stores, aren't they? And Doug, Doug Ford, the premier there in Ontario, very, very outspoken about how unfair he thought. I guess the American approach had been.

[Takara Small]

Exactly. And even when they do return eventually, I don't know that Canadians will want to buy the rhetoric. The accusations have really changed how Canadians view our trade in relationships and engagement

[Will Bain]

with Our partners nar is there none ease that this is a ramp ramping up once again from the White House, exactly as Takara says, to kind of look once again at all of its agreements it's currently got about trade around the world. And Vietnam, of course, would be back in the crosshairs, you'd suspect.

[Na Pham]

That's right. Since last year, we've been discussing a lot and negotiating a lot with the US and about their tariffs. They've been threatening with all sorts of things, you know, like tariffs on the forced labor products and tariffs on transshipments and everything. I think from the Vietnam's point of view, the government here has been bending backwards to try to please the US about their demands. But that's life. I mean, they have to actually accept that something will come from Vietnam to the US at our rate as well, because otherwise they're not going to receive to get any affordable product for their own domestic consumption.

[Will Bain]

On the flip of that too, have they been working hard, both countries, Canada and Vietnam, for looking for alternative markets.

[Takara Small]

In Canada, we're seeing that, you know, Canada has signed an increasingly large number of trade pacts with many countries in Europe, including the European Union, the United Kingdom, you know, around the globe. So we see our prime minister diversifying where we buy our products and where we sell our products. Because let's be honest, these tariffs the US Is imposing on Canada impact American buyers and shoppers, too. So in some ways, so nonsensical.

[Na Pham]

That's right. I mean, the US Domestic consumers actually pay a lot of taxes on behalf of exporters. That's why it backfires on their policies in Vietnam, too. I mean, we export a lot of agricultural products and furniture and garments, et cetera. I mean, you can't afford, you won't be able to afford anything if the export rate is going to be risen the way that Trump wants.

[Will Bain]

Well, exactly. As you guys say. We're going to get a good snapshot of that next week as we look ahead to what might be in the news. Surely this tariffs story will rumble into next week. But also we have a decision from the US Federal Reserve, so their central bank around their interest rates. And we know that everybody likes to dig into Cairo as a result as exactly what's going on in terms of costs being driven up by both the war in Iran and actually this kind of ongoing tariff backdrop too.

[Takara Small]

I feel sometimes like it's almost impossible to look into the future. I mean, that's part of my job. But it's such unusual times. As you mentioned, Iran inflation tariffs. It'll be interesting to see what happens next week.

[Will Bain]

Could that be the only kind of break on policy, do you think? Na, the actual kind of economic reality being sort of borne out in rates that President Trump is obviously so interested in?

[Na Pham]

Oh, we don't know. Trump is so unpredictable. So, you know, we all kind of, you know, holding our breath, expecting their decisions that can actually change overnight as well. So it's all in the air at

[Will Bain]

the moment and elsewhere. Going to be another busy week for you, Takara. I'm looking at my list here. Microsoft met Apple, all with results next week.

[Takara Small]

Exactly. And AI is going to be the dominant theme. So, you know, more of that coming up.

[Will Bain]

See where it lands Groundhog Day for us. There'll be plenty of that to chat about next week. We will look to see how those results from those big tech companies in particular mirror up with some of those that we've been chatting about on the program today when Rahul Tanden is back to take stock with you all next week. But just about it from us today, big thanks to journalist Na Pham in Hanoi, Vietnam, tech columnist and journalist Kara Smith in Toronto, Canada. And of course, a massive thanks to all of you for listening. If you are enjoying taking stock, then please do let others know that by giving us a five star rating and a review if you can, on whatever podcast platform you use, it helps us appear a little higher up in some of those ratings and rankings of people, new people to find the program as well. But thanks so much for listening.

[Takara Small]

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