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[00:00]
David Harper
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
[00:06]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
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[00:36]
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[01:10]
David Harper
So it's dinner time. Your phone is in your hand. What are we ordering?
[01:13]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Indulgence? Food? A hangover meal?
[01:15]
Bryce (London Hustle)
I don't know.
[01:16]
Dr. Alex Wood
Toilet paper, maybe German?
[01:18]
David Harper
Donner Kebab? Burgers?
[01:20]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Wine?
[01:20]
David Harper
Just one bottle of wine for emergencies. Hello, I'm David Harper. This is Business Daily, and today we're looking at delivery riders. The people that make the food, drink and even groceries that you order on an app actually appear at your door. And while they were once an occasional luxury, the use of food and grocery delivery apps like Just Eat, Deliveroo, and Doordash skyrocketed during the COVID pandemic and they're now seen as an everyday service. So much so that on average, in the UK, Gen Z consumers ordered food via delivery 4.5 times a month, according to a recent study. But as our appetite for food delivered to our doorstep has increased, the what does that mean for the riders and drivers on the street? And why do they do it? So, what's it like to be a delivery rider? Well, some riders enjoy it so much, they've turned their daily grind into online content watched by millions of people.
[02:13]
Bryce (London Hustle)
My name is Bryce. I go on the Internet as London Hustle, and I'm a delivery driver in the streets of London.
[02:18]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
My name is Joshua Cavallaro. I go by biking DC on the Internet. At the very start, I didn't really know how to use the app, so I would just be accepting things without looking at the mileage. And then I'd end up riding five miles and be like, what am I doing?
[02:30]
Bryce (London Hustle)
You know?
[02:30]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
But after A while you get the hang of it and you, you know, you kind of know. But there's always going to be some ups and downs. It's never just pick the food up and drop it off.
[02:38]
David Harper
What are the ups and downs like?
[02:39]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
People take a long time to answer their phones. You know, you could get to a drop off and people are in the middle of a meeting or they're doing something. So, you know, we get paid based off of the, you know, the individual delivery and tip. So you come across people who may not really understand that and they don't really respect your time too much. So you get caught waiting around for certain people.
[03:00]
Bryce (London Hustle)
One thing mentioned though, just then about tipping, I think that's more of an American culture rather than the UK culture. So most people actually tip before we drop off the order here in the uk. So a lot of the apps encourage it while they're ordering at the same time rather than after. I'd say maybe in a day. I would get two tips out of maybe 20 deliveries. Waited for 20 plus minutes. I think inside of there this is useful. They have not put an address, it just says fast forward flat.
[03:27]
David Harper
How did you get into this in the first place? What was it that made you want to start doing it?
[03:31]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
I've always rode bikes, you know, whenever I was younger and a few years ago I lost my sales job. So I was just looking for something to do and I needed some, you know, some cash to continue to pay in the bills without running through my savings. So I downloaded Uber and I wanted to go out in the city and kind of fell in love with it. I was having too much fun out there.
[03:49]
David Harper
Is it really as simple as that? You just download it and just start?
[03:52]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
Yeah, I mean, you got to do like a background check. It was pretty much that simple. I downloaded it and within like two days, you know, I was able to turn the app on and start going.
[04:00]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Similar to bike in dc. I've always been on bikes and I actually got into this when I was at university. So I was quite broke at uni. I think I was almost 500 pound in my overdraft. I saw a few videos online of some other people doing deliveries and I thought, sounds like a great idea. It was perfect. It fitted right around my lectures, it fitted around my study at home. It was very flexible.
[04:22]
David Harper
You've both developed a considerable online following for YouTube videos. Just, well, basically just documenting the job that you do. Josh, how did you start turning this into more of a creative thing?
[04:33]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
I was just kind of stumped on what was next? And I went to a buddy, he was doing aviation videos, he was a flight instructor. And he came to me and he was like, you should just record your deliveries. You should just put a camera on your head and just go do the same thing. When he first told me, I was like, you're crazy. I don't think anybody's going to want to watch me do that.
[04:50]
David Harper
And Bryce, was that a similar story for you? What made you tip the balance into making YouTube videos?
[04:54]
Bryce (London Hustle)
I was finding it very hard to get a job in the field that I studied in. So I just went full time doing deliveries. And some of the things I was seeing in the streets, I was like, people need to see this.
[05:05]
David Harper
What sort of things?
[05:06]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Oh, I don't know if I can say on air, but go for it. So I delivered to a sex party, opened the door, and you can use your imagination there. And I told some of my friends and they were like, there's no way that's true. And I was like, I swear it was true. One of my most popular was when I did a 24 hour shift. So I delivered for 24 hours straight. A lot of the evening time shifts do really well because I like to deliver around central London where people go out, party and drinking. That also produces a lot of content in itself. Hi, I'm here to pick up a package.
[05:36]
Dr. Alex Wood
Yes, can you come to the 10th floor?
[05:38]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Yep, no problem. I think the lift's out of order. No, the things I do for this job, eh? Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[05:43]
David Harper
It says it's gonna take 55min.
[05:46]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
First driver stole the order, so it's just been circulating. So he remade the order for me to drop off to get the high payout.
[05:53]
David Harper
Now, while Bryce and Josh have made the most of delivery riding, a recent study found that many riders feel significant anxiety, not to mention having to deal with physically hazardous conditions. I spoke to one of the study's authors.
[06:05]
Dr. Alex Wood
I'm Dr. Alex Wood and I'm an assistant professor in economic sociology at the University of Cambridge. We got 510 workers filling the survey, 224 of which were delivery riders. So actually it was the delivery riders who are most keen to tell us about their experiences. And the findings I think were pretty shocking.
[06:25]
David Harper
What is the reality like for them on the streets at the moment?
[06:29]
Dr. Alex Wood
We've really found a lot of very serious mental health and well being kind of consequences. In particular, we found shocking levels of insecurity in. You know, we often think of kind of gig work as being insecure and precarious. But just the level of insecurity actually really surprised us. So, you know, the majority of delivery riders in the UK this was said that they experienced insecurity regarding getting negative ratings and reviews from customers, which would then impact on their ability to make a living in the future. Nearly half felt there was a chance they could lose their ability to make a living on their main platform and become unemployed in the next years few 12 months. And that also then translated into kind of really worrying health and safety consequences. So around half of the delivery riders said they work to tight deadlines at least three quarters of the time and that then, as you can imagine with this delivery work really translates into taking risks. So the majority said they experience physical pain. And you can think if people are scared of getting a negative rating or review, then that kind of translates into them working at a very fast rate, going kind of through the pain barrier to try and make sure that they can earn enough. Also don't get bad ratings.
[07:46]
David Harper
Is it possible in the hours that these people worked to make a minimum wage income? Is it possible to make a living wage from this?
[07:53]
Dr. Alex Wood
The majority of our workers and delivery riders that we surveyed were earning below the minimum wage. And that's because there's a lot of waiting time involved in this work. And so the platforms are premised on the idea that whenever you order food, there'll be somebody waiting to go to the restaurant to pick it up and take it to you. And so that requires that there's kind of an oversupply of workers, which means that a lot of the workers are spending their time waiting for jobs. In order then to make enough money to be able to survive, they have to work very long hours and always be available to take those tasks.
[08:29]
David Harper
That isn't necessarily the case everywhere, though. For example, in the eu, riders have been given more rights and a guaranteed minimum hourly rate.
[08:37]
Dr. Alex Wood
I work for Just Eat. I mean, it's a Dutch company. I worked for a while in the town of Enschre for them, which is where they're from originally. It's a pretty relaxed job. You just cycle around and you get paid by the hour. At least in the Netherlands. I don't get paid per job, I get paid per hour. There's not that much overhead pressure on you. You just do what you're told in the app and that's about it.
[08:59]
David Harper
You're listening to Business Daily on the BBC World Service and I'm David Harper.
[09:05]
Odoo Advertiser
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[10:07]
Dr. Alex Wood
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[10:23]
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[10:26]
Dr. Alex Wood
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[10:30]
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[10:40]
David Harper
We'Ve heard so much about how difficult it is to make a living on these platforms. The question is now why do people do it?
[10:47]
Dr. Alex Wood
I think there are some positives of this work. Having autonomy and influence over how you carry out your tasks. This is a real positive and it really contradicts a lot of other low paid work. So if you think of fast food restaurants or call centers, often you don't have much autonomy in your work and it's quite strict. The other thing is flexibility. People said that it was possible for them to decide what hours they worked and be confident of there being work available for them and that they could take off a few hours a day if they needed to to deal with personal issues or family. Additionally, the algorithmic management that the platforms use mean that you don't have a manager that you need to interact with, which provides this sense of autonomy, but also overcomes language barriers, discrimination and legal barriers to being able to work.
[11:41]
David Harper
Now while I was looking at this story on the streets of London, I bumped into a rider whose experience matched what Dr. Wood was saying, though he also hinted at some of the more dubious reasons that people might do the job.
[11:51]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
I work for myself and I can get some money if I pay tasks. I work every day around 10 hours.
[12:04]
Dr. Alex Wood
And I get one rounded per day.
[12:07]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
It's hard, hard when I go to.
[12:11]
Dr. Alex Wood
Work in the way, it's hard and dangerous.
[12:15]
David Harper
Been allegations made that some of the people doing this may not have all the correct paperwork and right to work in a market. Is it easy to start doing this if you don't have all the right documents?
[12:25]
Dr. Alex Wood
In the uk, being self employed, one of the tests is that you can substitute yourself for other workers and so I can ask you to come and do my shift on Deliveroo. And that's evidence that I'm self employed. And that then means that people's accounts are basically being shared around and there isn't any regulation of who's doing work. And the reason why the companies are in favor of this is that enables them to avoid paying the minimum wage because they can say these workers are self employed, but then that means that the platform has no idea who's actually doing the work.
[13:02]
David Harper
I've seen it myself where I've ordered food and on the app it says person X is coming to deliver it, and when they arrive, it's clearly a completely different person. Is this basically people passing their phone to somebody else?
[13:12]
Dr. Alex Wood
Yeah. So they might be sharing their account or they might be selling kind of access to their account because they have lots of good reviews. But ultimately the reason why this happens is because the companies don't want to classify people as being employees.
[13:28]
David Harper
I put some of Dr. Alex's points to Josh and Bryce and asked what problems they encountered on the streets.
[13:34]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Delivery drivers do have a bit of a bad stigma. There's a lot of delivery drivers who go straight into restaurants, shoving phones in faces, demanding the orders straight away, being quite rude, and that then kind of has a knockdown effect. And then certain staff members ignore delivery drivers or don't treat us with maybe the same respect they would have if that didn't happen.
[13:52]
David Harper
Is that the same in D.C. as well?
[13:54]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
Yeah. I mean, I would definitely agree with what Bryce just said. I mean, there's a lot of delivery drivers who, you know, they don't even speak. They kind of walk in and they're really aggressive about pushing towards the front of the line or past other people who are doing mobile orders. So, you know, then when you walk in and you're a guy like me and Bryce, and you're not Disrespectful and you're just trying to do your job just like everybody else. You know, you can kind of get push off to the side, you know, they won't handle your order as quickly as they might.
[14:23]
David Harper
Does that get to the point sometimes where you see a pickup and you think, oh, I know that's going to be trouble, I'm not going to bother.
[14:28]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Yeah, for me, McDonald's, their drinks are really prone to spilling in the bag, which is never a good day for a delivery driver. I work a lot in North West London around Hampstead area. There's a lot of really nice homes there. I try to focus on the areas where it might sound bad, but the more wealthy people live because you do have a higher chance of getting tips from there. And usually they order from nicer restaurants as well.
[14:52]
David Harper
Does that play out in D.C. as well? Obviously a lot of government buildings going on. Do you get any high profile VIP type deliveries?
[15:00]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
Yeah, I would say like you don't really know because those types of people would never really come out and grab their food. They usually send down somebody else to come grab it. So I guess in that sort of situation you don't know. But I've also had some pretty expensive orders where there was no tip. And it was to a very high end person. Like I went and just did a delivery the other day of, you know, some cologne and stuff and to a lady who rushed me to the presidential suite. She needed an asap. And when I finished the delivery it was a two dollar payout.
[15:30]
David Harper
So I think I saw that video. Well, I think we're basically all asking here, any, any deliveries to Pennsylvania Avenue?
[15:36]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
I have had one, but it was like a, it was like a scam order. So I've never done anything like legit.
[15:41]
David Harper
Somebody pretending to be the President.
[15:43]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
Yeah, like they had me delivering to the White House like 1600. And that's obviously not possible. So you can't get close enough so that I couldn't complete the delivery. So it was just kind of like having me sit there for a while and then I guess something about a refund. It's like a big scheme. This lady ordered an $80 candle, $110 diffuser and a $70 bottle of room spray.
[16:04]
Dr. Alex Wood
Tell them that I want it delivered to the presidential suite like ASAP.
[16:09]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
$2 for that, no tip. That is probably the bougiest order I've ever delivered.
[16:13]
David Harper
There are a lot of people that say they can struggle to make enough money out of it, but also that they sort of live in fear of getting it wrong, that if they take on a delivery, they can't do that, it'll affect their income. Do you worry a little bit about keeping it going, particularly in the early days when you were starting, maybe perhaps when you weren't quite so famous for it.
[16:30]
Bryce (London Hustle)
So in the early days I really grinded at deliveries. I was working maybe six to eight hours a day, which maybe some people don't say is grinding, but I was on a pedal bike and it was a lot. It really was. Yeah, it really was. But the money is not too bad. If you work in the busy periods, which I always tell people is breakfast, lunch and dinner, you can make a good hourly wage. It's the in betweens that then bring that wage down.
[16:53]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
For me personally, when you're out there hustling, you know you're getting paid by the delivery, you do find yourself like moving quicker and doing, taking riskier cuts, you know, to try to get that delivery done, to get on to the next one.
[17:05]
Bryce (London Hustle)
I've had a few hit and runs with cars.
[17:07]
David Harper
Someone's hit you and driven off.
[17:09]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Yes, that's happened a couple of times, but I do feel confident in the way I ride. But every day you do step onto the bike, you're putting yourself at risk. It is a dangerous job. At rush hour especially, you've got a lot of people commuting on bikes as well. So it's not just the cars, the vans, the delivery trucks that are a danger, it's other cyclists as well.
[17:28]
David Harper
So what does the future for food delivery apps look like? They're not likely to end anytime soon. So could countries like the US and UK follow the EU model and insist on more robust worker rights for the riders. Dr. Alex Wood again, we need to.
[17:40]
Dr. Alex Wood
Change how we are viewing what counts as being a worker and ensure anybody who is working for somebody else who is benefiting another company has labor protections. And we need to ensure that their pay and conditions are kind of socially acceptable. We need to rethink what workers we're thinking are entitled to those rights and make sure it's everybody who actually needs them.
[18:06]
David Harper
This programme is about the industry in general, but we did get in touch with a few of the individual companies operating delivery apps. None of them wanted to join us on the program, but they did give us some statements. Deliveroo said, we are always looking at.
[18:18]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Ways to raise the quality of self employed work. We support riders right to unionize, negotiate on pay and offer many vital protections such as insurance, sickness cover and educational opportunities, all alongside the ability to work flexibly when, where and how riders want.
[18:35]
David Harper
They also pointed out that their platform does not use ratings for riders. Just Eat confirmed what we found that most self employed riders or drivers do it for the flexibility.
[18:45]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
The couriers we work with tell us that the flexibility allows them to structure their working hours around other life commitments including caring responsibilities and studying.
[18:55]
David Harper
They also say they offer competitive pay and listen to feedback on remuneration and review it regularly. Uber Eats highlighted safety concerns, saying the.
[19:04]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Safety and well being of everyone who uses our platform is our top priority and there are a number of safety features designed for couriers.
[19:12]
David Harper
And they also added while the vast.
[19:13]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Majority are satisfied with their experience on the app, we work closely with our union partner to ensure couriers interests are always represented.
[19:22]
David Harper
Now we made this edition of Business Daily because we'd heard all of the horror stories of how grueling it can be to make a living in the gig economy, only being paid for the deliveries that you do and working hard, riding for miles in city streets in all weathers. And we wanted to know, well, if it's so difficult, why do people do it? Well, after speaking to riders, experts and customers, maybe it isn't all bad. Yes, there are some challenges and not everybody can make it work. But for some people the freedom and flexibility can be more important than stability. And some people do actually enjoy the work. Admittedly, people who are probably a bit more physically fit than I am. This has been Business Daily, presented by me, David Harper and produced by Victoria Hastings.
[20:14]
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Dr. Alex Wood
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[20:58]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
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Summary6 min read

Podcast Summary

Business Daily – What's it like being a delivery rider?

Host: David Harper, BBC World Service
Guests:

Bryce (London Hustle), Delivery Rider & YouTube Creator, London
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC), Delivery Rider & YouTube Creator, Washington DC
Dr. Alex Wood, Assistant Professor in Economic Sociology, University of Cambridge
Date: December 31, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the lived realities of food and grocery delivery riders in the gig economy. As delivery services like JustEat, Deliveroo, and DoorDash shift from luxury to daily convenience, the conversation delves into what motivates riders, the hazards and hardships they face, and the unique workplace culture of app-based delivery. The episode also examines the role of social media in shaping perceptions and includes perspectives from researchers on the mental, financial, and legal risks of the job.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Gig Economy Boom and Rider Experiences

The popularity of food delivery apps surged during the COVID pandemic and remains high, especially among younger generations. (01:20)
Bryce (London): "On average, in the UK, Gen Z consumers ordered food via delivery 4.5 times a month." (01:20)
Riders, once seen as an occasional convenience, now deliver daily essentials to millions.

First-Person Accounts: Why Become a Rider?

Both Bryce and Josh began riding due to financial need and a love of cycling.
- Bryce: Started while at university to offset overdraft, drawn by flexibility. (04:00)
- Josh: Transitioned from a sales job to delivery riding, enjoying its simplicity: "Within like two days, I was able to turn the app on and start going." (03:52)

Notable Quote

"It was perfect. It fitted right around my lectures, it fitted around my study at home. It was very flexible."
— Bryce (04:09)

Tipping, Ups and Downs

Josh: In the US, tips are vital; delivery riders are paid per job and tip, leading to income variability and waiting time frustrations. (02:39)
Bryce: In the UK, tipping is less common and mostly done ahead of delivery, with "maybe two tips out of 20 deliveries." (03:00)

The Allure and Content Creation

Both riders have built large online audiences by sharing their daily delivery experiences.
- Josh: Inspired by a friend to "just put a camera on your head and just go do the same thing." (04:32)
- Bryce: Turned to YouTube after struggling to find work in his trained field; highlights bizarre and "you wouldn't believe it" stories. (04:54, 05:05)

Memorable Moment

"I delivered to a sex party...opened the door, and you can use your imagination there."
— Bryce (05:05)

The Grind: Physical and Mental Toll

Dr. Alex Wood presents research revealing high levels of insecurity, mental health strain, and physical risks.
- Over half of delivery riders feel job insecurity due to ratings and fear of unemployment.
- Tight deadlines cause riders to take risks and work through pain, pushing for more deliveries. (06:28, 07:13)

Notable Quote

"Just the level of insecurity actually really surprised us. The majority of delivery riders in the UK said that they experienced insecurity regarding getting negative ratings and reviews from customers..."
— Dr. Alex Wood (06:28)

Many riders earn below minimum wage due to waiting time and platform oversupply: "The majority of our workers and delivery riders that we surveyed were earning below the minimum wage." (07:53)
EU countries like the Netherlands offer better protections, paying by the hour and reducing stress and risk for riders. (08:36)

Why Do People Still Do It? The Positives

Flexibility and autonomy were repeatedly mentioned as the main draws.
- The ability to choose hours, take breaks for personal needs, and avoid direct managerial oversight. (10:47, 11:09)

Notable Quote

"Having autonomy and influence over how you carry out your tasks...really contradicts a lot of other low-paid work."
— Dr. Alex Wood (10:47)

Platform algorithms reduce language and discrimination barriers.

Legal Loopholes & Account Sharing

UK's "self-employment" model makes it easy for workers to substitute or share accounts, sometimes circumventing right-to-work rules and company oversight. (12:24, 13:12)

Notable Quote

"Their [the companies'] favor of this is that enables them to avoid paying the minimum wage because they can say these workers are self employed..."
— Dr. Alex Wood (12:24)

Stigma and On-the-Job Challenges

Both riders mention negative stereotypes due to aggressive behavior by some drivers, leading to strained relations with restaurant staff. (13:33)
- Bryce favors wealthier neighborhoods for better tips and fewer issues. (14:27)
Josh: “You don't really know...those types of people would never really come out and grab their food...I went and just did a delivery…to the presidential suite. When I finished the delivery it was a two dollar payout.” (15:00)

Dangerous, High-Stakes Work

Both riders share the risks: injuries, hit-and-runs, city traffic, competitive stress.
- Bryce: "Every day you do step onto the bike, you're putting yourself at risk. It is a dangerous job." (17:08)
- Riders are incentivized to speed, risking safety for higher earnings. (16:53)

Future of Delivery Work: Rights, Protections, and Regulation

Dr. Wood calls for the expansion of labor rights for gig workers, urging for minimum wage guarantees and workplace protections in markets like the US and UK, as seen in parts of the EU. (17:40)

Notable Quote

"We need to ensure that their pay and conditions are...socially acceptable. We need to rethink what workers we're thinking are entitled to those rights and make sure it's everybody who actually needs them."
— Dr. Alex Wood (17:40)

Company Responses

Companies like Deliveroo, JustEat, and Uber Eats comment on their efforts to:
- Support unionization and rider protections
- Emphasize pay competitiveness and flexibility
- Highlight safety features and cooperation with unions (18:18–19:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments with Timestamps

Bryce: "It was perfect. It fitted right around my lectures...very flexible." (04:09)
Josh: "I downloaded it and within like two days...start going." (03:52)
Bryce: "I delivered to a sex party...opened the door, and you can use your imagination there." (05:05)
Dr. Alex Wood: "Just the level of insecurity actually really surprised us." (06:28)
Dr. Alex Wood: "The majority of our workers and delivery riders...earning below the minimum wage." (07:53)
Bryce: "Every day you do step onto the bike, you're putting yourself at risk. It is a dangerous job." (17:08)
Dr. Alex Wood: "We need to ensure that their pay and conditions are...socially acceptable." (17:40)
Josh: “I went and just did a delivery…presidential suite...two dollar payout.” (15:00)

Timestamps for Important Segments

01:20 – Introduction to the rise of delivery apps and cultural shift
02:12–05:45 – Riders introduce themselves, their YouTube journeys, and unusual stories
06:04–08:59 – Dr. Wood explains gig economy research findings in the UK and EU
10:47–11:41 – Discussion of the positives: autonomy and flexibility
12:24–13:12 – Account sharing and gig economy legal loopholes
13:33–14:27 – Social stigma, challenges with restaurants, and tip strategies
16:29–17:08 – Job grind, financial pressure, and risks
17:40–18:05 – Future policy and call for improved worker protections
18:18–19:22 – Corporate statements and company responses

Tone and Language

The episode is candid, matter-of-fact, and occasionally humorous, particularly when sharing wild rider stories. Dr. Alex Wood provides analytical insights with compassion for the workforce, while Bryce and Josh bring energy and wit, keeping the conversation grounded in real-life experience. David Harper maintains a balanced, inquisitive tone throughout.

Final Thoughts

While the delivery gig economy offers riders flexibility, autonomy, and the potential for creative expression, it also comes with financial insecurity, mental and physical risks, and regulatory loopholes. The episode concludes on a nuanced note: for some, the drawbacks outweigh the upsides, while others value the freedom despite the dangers. As the industry grows, calls for reformed labor protections and fair compensation become increasingly crucial.

Loading summary

Transcript94 lines

[00:00]
David Harper
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
[00:06]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
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[00:36]
Odoo Advertiser
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[01:10]
David Harper
So it's dinner time. Your phone is in your hand. What are we ordering?
[01:13]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Indulgence? Food? A hangover meal?
[01:15]
Bryce (London Hustle)
I don't know.
[01:16]
Dr. Alex Wood
Toilet paper, maybe German?
[01:18]
David Harper
Donner Kebab? Burgers?
[01:20]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Wine?
[01:20]
David Harper
Just one bottle of wine for emergencies. Hello, I'm David Harper. This is Business Daily, and today we're looking at delivery riders. The people that make the food, drink and even groceries that you order on an app actually appear at your door. And while they were once an occasional luxury, the use of food and grocery delivery apps like Just Eat, Deliveroo, and Doordash skyrocketed during the COVID pandemic and they're now seen as an everyday service. So much so that on average, in the UK, Gen Z consumers ordered food via delivery 4.5 times a month, according to a recent study. But as our appetite for food delivered to our doorstep has increased, the what does that mean for the riders and drivers on the street? And why do they do it? So, what's it like to be a delivery rider? Well, some riders enjoy it so much, they've turned their daily grind into online content watched by millions of people.
[02:13]
Bryce (London Hustle)
My name is Bryce. I go on the Internet as London Hustle, and I'm a delivery driver in the streets of London.
[02:18]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
My name is Joshua Cavallaro. I go by biking DC on the Internet. At the very start, I didn't really know how to use the app, so I would just be accepting things without looking at the mileage. And then I'd end up riding five miles and be like, what am I doing?
[02:30]
Bryce (London Hustle)
You know?
[02:30]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
But after A while you get the hang of it and you, you know, you kind of know. But there's always going to be some ups and downs. It's never just pick the food up and drop it off.
[02:38]
David Harper
What are the ups and downs like?
[02:39]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
People take a long time to answer their phones. You know, you could get to a drop off and people are in the middle of a meeting or they're doing something. So, you know, we get paid based off of the, you know, the individual delivery and tip. So you come across people who may not really understand that and they don't really respect your time too much. So you get caught waiting around for certain people.
[03:00]
Bryce (London Hustle)
One thing mentioned though, just then about tipping, I think that's more of an American culture rather than the UK culture. So most people actually tip before we drop off the order here in the uk. So a lot of the apps encourage it while they're ordering at the same time rather than after. I'd say maybe in a day. I would get two tips out of maybe 20 deliveries. Waited for 20 plus minutes. I think inside of there this is useful. They have not put an address, it just says fast forward flat.
[03:27]
David Harper
How did you get into this in the first place? What was it that made you want to start doing it?
[03:31]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
I've always rode bikes, you know, whenever I was younger and a few years ago I lost my sales job. So I was just looking for something to do and I needed some, you know, some cash to continue to pay in the bills without running through my savings. So I downloaded Uber and I wanted to go out in the city and kind of fell in love with it. I was having too much fun out there.
[03:49]
David Harper
Is it really as simple as that? You just download it and just start?
[03:52]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
Yeah, I mean, you got to do like a background check. It was pretty much that simple. I downloaded it and within like two days, you know, I was able to turn the app on and start going.
[04:00]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Similar to bike in dc. I've always been on bikes and I actually got into this when I was at university. So I was quite broke at uni. I think I was almost 500 pound in my overdraft. I saw a few videos online of some other people doing deliveries and I thought, sounds like a great idea. It was perfect. It fitted right around my lectures, it fitted around my study at home. It was very flexible.
[04:22]
David Harper
You've both developed a considerable online following for YouTube videos. Just, well, basically just documenting the job that you do. Josh, how did you start turning this into more of a creative thing?
[04:33]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
I was just kind of stumped on what was next? And I went to a buddy, he was doing aviation videos, he was a flight instructor. And he came to me and he was like, you should just record your deliveries. You should just put a camera on your head and just go do the same thing. When he first told me, I was like, you're crazy. I don't think anybody's going to want to watch me do that.
[04:50]
David Harper
And Bryce, was that a similar story for you? What made you tip the balance into making YouTube videos?
[04:54]
Bryce (London Hustle)
I was finding it very hard to get a job in the field that I studied in. So I just went full time doing deliveries. And some of the things I was seeing in the streets, I was like, people need to see this.
[05:05]
David Harper
What sort of things?
[05:06]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Oh, I don't know if I can say on air, but go for it. So I delivered to a sex party, opened the door, and you can use your imagination there. And I told some of my friends and they were like, there's no way that's true. And I was like, I swear it was true. One of my most popular was when I did a 24 hour shift. So I delivered for 24 hours straight. A lot of the evening time shifts do really well because I like to deliver around central London where people go out, party and drinking. That also produces a lot of content in itself. Hi, I'm here to pick up a package.
[05:36]
Dr. Alex Wood
Yes, can you come to the 10th floor?
[05:38]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Yep, no problem. I think the lift's out of order. No, the things I do for this job, eh? Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[05:43]
David Harper
It says it's gonna take 55min.
[05:46]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
First driver stole the order, so it's just been circulating. So he remade the order for me to drop off to get the high payout.
[05:53]
David Harper
Now, while Bryce and Josh have made the most of delivery riding, a recent study found that many riders feel significant anxiety, not to mention having to deal with physically hazardous conditions. I spoke to one of the study's authors.
[06:05]
Dr. Alex Wood
I'm Dr. Alex Wood and I'm an assistant professor in economic sociology at the University of Cambridge. We got 510 workers filling the survey, 224 of which were delivery riders. So actually it was the delivery riders who are most keen to tell us about their experiences. And the findings I think were pretty shocking.
[06:25]
David Harper
What is the reality like for them on the streets at the moment?
[06:29]
Dr. Alex Wood
We've really found a lot of very serious mental health and well being kind of consequences. In particular, we found shocking levels of insecurity in. You know, we often think of kind of gig work as being insecure and precarious. But just the level of insecurity actually really surprised us. So, you know, the majority of delivery riders in the UK this was said that they experienced insecurity regarding getting negative ratings and reviews from customers, which would then impact on their ability to make a living in the future. Nearly half felt there was a chance they could lose their ability to make a living on their main platform and become unemployed in the next years few 12 months. And that also then translated into kind of really worrying health and safety consequences. So around half of the delivery riders said they work to tight deadlines at least three quarters of the time and that then, as you can imagine with this delivery work really translates into taking risks. So the majority said they experience physical pain. And you can think if people are scared of getting a negative rating or review, then that kind of translates into them working at a very fast rate, going kind of through the pain barrier to try and make sure that they can earn enough. Also don't get bad ratings.
[07:46]
David Harper
Is it possible in the hours that these people worked to make a minimum wage income? Is it possible to make a living wage from this?
[07:53]
Dr. Alex Wood
The majority of our workers and delivery riders that we surveyed were earning below the minimum wage. And that's because there's a lot of waiting time involved in this work. And so the platforms are premised on the idea that whenever you order food, there'll be somebody waiting to go to the restaurant to pick it up and take it to you. And so that requires that there's kind of an oversupply of workers, which means that a lot of the workers are spending their time waiting for jobs. In order then to make enough money to be able to survive, they have to work very long hours and always be available to take those tasks.
[08:29]
David Harper
That isn't necessarily the case everywhere, though. For example, in the eu, riders have been given more rights and a guaranteed minimum hourly rate.
[08:37]
Dr. Alex Wood
I work for Just Eat. I mean, it's a Dutch company. I worked for a while in the town of Enschre for them, which is where they're from originally. It's a pretty relaxed job. You just cycle around and you get paid by the hour. At least in the Netherlands. I don't get paid per job, I get paid per hour. There's not that much overhead pressure on you. You just do what you're told in the app and that's about it.
[08:59]
David Harper
You're listening to Business Daily on the BBC World Service and I'm David Harper.
[09:05]
Odoo Advertiser
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[10:07]
Dr. Alex Wood
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[10:23]
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[10:26]
Dr. Alex Wood
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[10:30]
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[10:40]
David Harper
We'Ve heard so much about how difficult it is to make a living on these platforms. The question is now why do people do it?
[10:47]
Dr. Alex Wood
I think there are some positives of this work. Having autonomy and influence over how you carry out your tasks. This is a real positive and it really contradicts a lot of other low paid work. So if you think of fast food restaurants or call centers, often you don't have much autonomy in your work and it's quite strict. The other thing is flexibility. People said that it was possible for them to decide what hours they worked and be confident of there being work available for them and that they could take off a few hours a day if they needed to to deal with personal issues or family. Additionally, the algorithmic management that the platforms use mean that you don't have a manager that you need to interact with, which provides this sense of autonomy, but also overcomes language barriers, discrimination and legal barriers to being able to work.
[11:41]
David Harper
Now while I was looking at this story on the streets of London, I bumped into a rider whose experience matched what Dr. Wood was saying, though he also hinted at some of the more dubious reasons that people might do the job.
[11:51]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
I work for myself and I can get some money if I pay tasks. I work every day around 10 hours.
[12:04]
Dr. Alex Wood
And I get one rounded per day.
[12:07]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
It's hard, hard when I go to.
[12:11]
Dr. Alex Wood
Work in the way, it's hard and dangerous.
[12:15]
David Harper
Been allegations made that some of the people doing this may not have all the correct paperwork and right to work in a market. Is it easy to start doing this if you don't have all the right documents?
[12:25]
Dr. Alex Wood
In the uk, being self employed, one of the tests is that you can substitute yourself for other workers and so I can ask you to come and do my shift on Deliveroo. And that's evidence that I'm self employed. And that then means that people's accounts are basically being shared around and there isn't any regulation of who's doing work. And the reason why the companies are in favor of this is that enables them to avoid paying the minimum wage because they can say these workers are self employed, but then that means that the platform has no idea who's actually doing the work.
[13:02]
David Harper
I've seen it myself where I've ordered food and on the app it says person X is coming to deliver it, and when they arrive, it's clearly a completely different person. Is this basically people passing their phone to somebody else?
[13:12]
Dr. Alex Wood
Yeah. So they might be sharing their account or they might be selling kind of access to their account because they have lots of good reviews. But ultimately the reason why this happens is because the companies don't want to classify people as being employees.
[13:28]
David Harper
I put some of Dr. Alex's points to Josh and Bryce and asked what problems they encountered on the streets.
[13:34]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Delivery drivers do have a bit of a bad stigma. There's a lot of delivery drivers who go straight into restaurants, shoving phones in faces, demanding the orders straight away, being quite rude, and that then kind of has a knockdown effect. And then certain staff members ignore delivery drivers or don't treat us with maybe the same respect they would have if that didn't happen.
[13:52]
David Harper
Is that the same in D.C. as well?
[13:54]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
Yeah. I mean, I would definitely agree with what Bryce just said. I mean, there's a lot of delivery drivers who, you know, they don't even speak. They kind of walk in and they're really aggressive about pushing towards the front of the line or past other people who are doing mobile orders. So, you know, then when you walk in and you're a guy like me and Bryce, and you're not Disrespectful and you're just trying to do your job just like everybody else. You know, you can kind of get push off to the side, you know, they won't handle your order as quickly as they might.
[14:23]
David Harper
Does that get to the point sometimes where you see a pickup and you think, oh, I know that's going to be trouble, I'm not going to bother.
[14:28]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Yeah, for me, McDonald's, their drinks are really prone to spilling in the bag, which is never a good day for a delivery driver. I work a lot in North West London around Hampstead area. There's a lot of really nice homes there. I try to focus on the areas where it might sound bad, but the more wealthy people live because you do have a higher chance of getting tips from there. And usually they order from nicer restaurants as well.
[14:52]
David Harper
Does that play out in D.C. as well? Obviously a lot of government buildings going on. Do you get any high profile VIP type deliveries?
[15:00]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
Yeah, I would say like you don't really know because those types of people would never really come out and grab their food. They usually send down somebody else to come grab it. So I guess in that sort of situation you don't know. But I've also had some pretty expensive orders where there was no tip. And it was to a very high end person. Like I went and just did a delivery the other day of, you know, some cologne and stuff and to a lady who rushed me to the presidential suite. She needed an asap. And when I finished the delivery it was a two dollar payout.
[15:30]
David Harper
So I think I saw that video. Well, I think we're basically all asking here, any, any deliveries to Pennsylvania Avenue?
[15:36]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
I have had one, but it was like a, it was like a scam order. So I've never done anything like legit.
[15:41]
David Harper
Somebody pretending to be the President.
[15:43]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
Yeah, like they had me delivering to the White House like 1600. And that's obviously not possible. So you can't get close enough so that I couldn't complete the delivery. So it was just kind of like having me sit there for a while and then I guess something about a refund. It's like a big scheme. This lady ordered an $80 candle, $110 diffuser and a $70 bottle of room spray.
[16:04]
Dr. Alex Wood
Tell them that I want it delivered to the presidential suite like ASAP.
[16:09]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
$2 for that, no tip. That is probably the bougiest order I've ever delivered.
[16:13]
David Harper
There are a lot of people that say they can struggle to make enough money out of it, but also that they sort of live in fear of getting it wrong, that if they take on a delivery, they can't do that, it'll affect their income. Do you worry a little bit about keeping it going, particularly in the early days when you were starting, maybe perhaps when you weren't quite so famous for it.
[16:30]
Bryce (London Hustle)
So in the early days I really grinded at deliveries. I was working maybe six to eight hours a day, which maybe some people don't say is grinding, but I was on a pedal bike and it was a lot. It really was. Yeah, it really was. But the money is not too bad. If you work in the busy periods, which I always tell people is breakfast, lunch and dinner, you can make a good hourly wage. It's the in betweens that then bring that wage down.
[16:53]
Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
For me personally, when you're out there hustling, you know you're getting paid by the delivery, you do find yourself like moving quicker and doing, taking riskier cuts, you know, to try to get that delivery done, to get on to the next one.
[17:05]
Bryce (London Hustle)
I've had a few hit and runs with cars.
[17:07]
David Harper
Someone's hit you and driven off.
[17:09]
Bryce (London Hustle)
Yes, that's happened a couple of times, but I do feel confident in the way I ride. But every day you do step onto the bike, you're putting yourself at risk. It is a dangerous job. At rush hour especially, you've got a lot of people commuting on bikes as well. So it's not just the cars, the vans, the delivery trucks that are a danger, it's other cyclists as well.
[17:28]
David Harper
So what does the future for food delivery apps look like? They're not likely to end anytime soon. So could countries like the US and UK follow the EU model and insist on more robust worker rights for the riders. Dr. Alex Wood again, we need to.
[17:40]
Dr. Alex Wood
Change how we are viewing what counts as being a worker and ensure anybody who is working for somebody else who is benefiting another company has labor protections. And we need to ensure that their pay and conditions are kind of socially acceptable. We need to rethink what workers we're thinking are entitled to those rights and make sure it's everybody who actually needs them.
[18:06]
David Harper
This programme is about the industry in general, but we did get in touch with a few of the individual companies operating delivery apps. None of them wanted to join us on the program, but they did give us some statements. Deliveroo said, we are always looking at.
[18:18]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Ways to raise the quality of self employed work. We support riders right to unionize, negotiate on pay and offer many vital protections such as insurance, sickness cover and educational opportunities, all alongside the ability to work flexibly when, where and how riders want.
[18:35]
David Harper
They also pointed out that their platform does not use ratings for riders. Just Eat confirmed what we found that most self employed riders or drivers do it for the flexibility.
[18:45]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
The couriers we work with tell us that the flexibility allows them to structure their working hours around other life commitments including caring responsibilities and studying.
[18:55]
David Harper
They also say they offer competitive pay and listen to feedback on remuneration and review it regularly. Uber Eats highlighted safety concerns, saying the.
[19:04]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Safety and well being of everyone who uses our platform is our top priority and there are a number of safety features designed for couriers.
[19:12]
David Harper
And they also added while the vast.
[19:13]
BBC Announcer/Advertiser
Majority are satisfied with their experience on the app, we work closely with our union partner to ensure couriers interests are always represented.
[19:22]
David Harper
Now we made this edition of Business Daily because we'd heard all of the horror stories of how grueling it can be to make a living in the gig economy, only being paid for the deliveries that you do and working hard, riding for miles in city streets in all weathers. And we wanted to know, well, if it's so difficult, why do people do it? Well, after speaking to riders, experts and customers, maybe it isn't all bad. Yes, there are some challenges and not everybody can make it work. But for some people the freedom and flexibility can be more important than stability. And some people do actually enjoy the work. Admittedly, people who are probably a bit more physically fit than I am. This has been Business Daily, presented by me, David Harper and produced by Victoria Hastings.
[20:14]
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[20:39]
Dr. Alex Wood
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Joshua Cavallaro (Biking DC)
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