An Elf-Made Success | Elfy Profits: How The Elf On The Shelf Found Its Place At Christmas | 2

Summary

Business Movers: An Elf-Made Success | Elfy Profits: How The Elf On The Shelf Found Its Place At Christmas | Episode 2

In the second episode of Wondery's Business Movers, host Lindsey Graham delves into the intriguing journey of Neil Hoffman, the creator behind Mensch on the Bench. This episode explores how Hoffman was inspired by the phenomenal success of Elf on the Shelf to create a Jewish counterpart that celebrates Hanukkah, blending tradition with modern entrepreneurship.

Origins of Mensch on the Bench

The episode opens with a recount of Elf on the Shelf's rise to prominence. Similar to the Elves, Hoffman's Mensch on the Bench was born out of a desire to create a meaningful holiday tradition. Neil Hoffman shares how a personal moment with his son sparked the idea:

Neil Hoffman [07:37]: "I was walking through a store with my son and he brought me an Elf on the Shelf and said, 'Daddy, can we get this?'... I said, 'No man, we're Jewish. You could get a Mensch on a Bench.'"

This interaction led Hoffman to conceptualize a figure that embodies Jewish values and the miracles of Hanukkah, aiming to provide Jewish families with a similar tradition to that of the Elf.

Launching Through Kickstarter

Hoffman discusses the challenges of launching Mensch on the Bench, particularly in securing initial funding. Opting for a self-publishing route, he leveraged Kickstarter as a testing ground for his idea:

Neil Hoffman [10:34]: "I used Kickstarter as a stage gate to try and understand, were there other people interested in my idea, or was this something that I should just make one and do it in my own home."

Despite minimal initial interest, Hoffman's relentless efforts, including personalized outreach to friends and family, resulted in raising $22,000—surpassing his original goal of $18,000. This success was pivotal in moving forward with production.

Breakthrough on Shark Tank

A significant turning point in Hoffman's journey was his appearance on Shark Tank. Although initially a nerve-wracking experience, the exposure proved invaluable:

Neil Hoffman [13:58]: "I went on Shark Tank. They grilled me for about 30 minutes... but when they realized I was from Hasbro and I had sales, the whole tone changed."

The episode highlights how this exposure not only boosted sales but also validated Hoffman’s business model, leading to a lucrative deal with investors Robert Herjavec and Lori Greiner.

Balancing Inspiration and Originality

A critical aspect of Hoffman's success lies in his ability to draw inspiration from Elf on the Shelf while establishing a distinct identity for his product. He emphasizes ethical considerations in differentiating Mensch on the Bench:

Neil Hoffman [22:37]: "I wanted to make sure that I didn't poke the bear... Our character is designed totally differently... So, to me, we're not taking any other element of what they're doing other than the inspiration."

This careful balancing act ensured that Mensch on the Bench was perceived as a respectful homage rather than a mere imitation.

Product Evolution and Market Challenges

Hoffman candidly discusses the hurdles of scaling a seasonal product:

Neil Hoffman [27:19]: "It's hyper seasonal, so you're really only getting paid six weeks of the year. So you need to stage gate accordingly."

To maintain relevance and consumer interest, Hoffman continually innovates by introducing new characters like the Junicorn, ensuring that the brand remains fresh and engaging year after year.

Addressing Criticisms and Promoting Positive Values

The episode also tackles the criticisms faced by Mensch on the Bench, particularly regarding cultural representation:

Neil Hoffman [29:50]: "For Bench, we did take away the fact that he has to move every day... So they don't report back on kids."

Hoffman addresses concerns head-on, striving to foster positive representations and engaging in dialogues to dispel misconceptions. He underscores the importance of intent, ensuring that the product promotes Jewish values and traditions without perpetuating stereotypes.

Lessons from Elf on the Shelf

Drawing parallels between Elf on the Shelf and Mensch on the Bench, Hoffman imparts valuable business insights:

Neil Hoffman [44:52]: "If you have something that you are doing within your home that you feel you want to share with the world, and that is your gift to the world, there's a model to do that."

He attributes the enduring success of both products to their embodiment of tradition and the ability to create shared family experiences. By focusing on storytelling and emotional connections, Hoffman illustrates how businesses can build legacies that transcend mere products.

Conclusion

Neil Hoffman's journey with Mensch on the Bench serves as a testament to the power of perseverance, cultural authenticity, and innovative marketing. By respecting the foundational elements of Elf on the Shelf while carving out a unique niche, Hoffman has established a beloved tradition that resonates deeply within the Jewish community.

As Lindsey Graham aptly summarizes:

Lindsey Graham [44:52]: "They have good hearts, they're kind, they pay it forward. They've given a gift to the world... They've built a legacy that will outlive them."

This episode of Business Movers not only celebrates Hoffman's achievements but also offers a blueprint for entrepreneurs aiming to blend cultural heritage with business acumen.

Transcript

[Lindsey Graham]

Want to get more from business movers? Subscribe to Wondery for early access to new episodes, ad free listening and exclusive content you can't find anywhere else.

[Neil Hoffman]

Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. It's mid December 2014 inside a bed, Bath and Beyond in a small Georgia town outside of Atlanta. Shanda Bell and her mother Carol Abrasil stroll through the brightly lit store, navigating their half filled shopping cart through the maze of bed sheets, vacuums and bathroom accessories. Nearly a decade ago, Shanda and Carol wrote the best selling children's book the Elf on the Shelf. Christmas is a busy time of year for them and their company creatively classic activities and books. But that doesn't mean that Chanda and Carol don't have their own holiday shopping to do. Chanda peers at the shelves with some frustration. God. Any ideas for Dad? I know your father's impossible, but anything's better than nothing. Shanda picks up a foot bath and starts reading the back of the box, wondering if perhaps this might make a good gift for her father. What in the world is that? It's a foot bath, Mom. He's always complaining about his aching feet. Chanda looks up, but Carol isn't beside her anymore. She's walking further down the aisle where she's staring at a very different display. Honey, come look at this. Chanda places the footbath in her cart and then joins her mother. Carol is holding a box that looks.

[Lindsey Graham]

A little like the elf on the.

[Neil Hoffman]

Shelf with a book and a doll.

Staring out from the clear plastic front.

Except this doll is not an elf, it's a bearded man with a broad smile. And the book's title is the Mensch on a A New Hanukkah Family Tradition. Carol shows Shanda the box. Did you know about this? Oh, I saw this on Shark Tank the other night. Two of the sharks invested. It's kind of cute. Doesn't bother you at all? I don't see the harm. Every time someone picks this up, they'll think of our elf. It's free advertising. It's not like we're planning to launch a Hanukkah book, right? Not after Birthday Tradition. Still not selling well? Not as well as we'd like. The Elf on the A Birthday Tradition was released last year, a sequel to the Christmas original. It included a new book and birthday themed clothes for the elf doll. Shanda and her co CEO twin sister Krista Pitts, had hoped that a Birthday Tradition would help the company diversify beyond the Christmas season. But sales have been disappointing. Carol watches her daughter study the box. Well, you know, honey, I think what people really loved about the Elf on the Shelf was that it was a genuine tradition. They could feel that we didn't fake it. Yeah, I think you're right. We probably forced it a bit with the birthday stuff. It made sense to try. But perhaps this mentioned the Bench is a sign. Let other people have other holidays. Christmas is plenty big for us. The Elf on the Shelf would continue to inspire loving copycats like the Mensch on the Bench and creatively classic activities and books would abandon its attempts to branch out from Christmas. The company would eventually discontinue its birthday.

[Lindsey Graham]

Themed sequel to the Elf on the.

[Neil Hoffman]

Shelf, with Chief Executive Shanda Bell and her twin sister Krista Pitts realizing that their original book had succeeded in part because it felt authentic. The holidays might often feature fake snow and artificial Christmas trees, but if there's one thing that's a little harder to forge, it's tradition. Business Movers is sponsored by Grammarly.

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[Neil Hoffman]

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[Lindsey Graham]

From Wondery I'm Lindsey Graham and this is Business members.

[Neil Hoffman]

Over the past two decades, the Elf on the Shelf has become a new Christmas tradition for families all around the world. Its simple hide and seek concept and deliberately nostalgic design have proven equally appealing to both kids and adults, and with more than 20 million copies sold so far, it's one of the best selling children's books of the 21st century.

[Lindsey Graham]

But Shanda Bell and Carol Aebersold's success.

[Neil Hoffman]

Was built on a gamble. Back in 2005, almost no one was interested in their idea. Shanda and Carol had pitched the Elf on the Shelf to publishers all across America and received only rejection after rejection. But the two women refused to take no for an answer. Teaming up with Shanda's twin sister, Krista Pitts, they invested their own money in self publishing the book and selling it themselves at holiday markets and trade shows. The family's hard work selling directly to consumers eventually paid off. In 2007, an unexpected celebrity photograph catapulted.

[Lindsey Graham]

The Elf on the Shelf to national.

[Neil Hoffman]

Prominence, and sales flooded in. The book was soon stocked in stores across America, and the Elf on the Shelf became a staple of Christmas retail in America from that moment on. Over the years that followed, Shanda and Christa built a multi million dollar publishing and entertainment company around their book, steadily expanding its range with plush animal dolls, games and animated specials. But not every product launched was a success. It seemed that even its creators struggled to replicate the magic of the original book. Perhaps that's because the Elf on the Shelf had captured something delicate, something that's long been at the heart of how America celebrates Christmas. A sense of nostalgia, one that's there in Bing Crosby crooning about sleigh bells in the snow, or the familiar paintings of a red suited Santa Claus sipping a Coca Cola. Whether they meant to or not, Shanda and her family tapped into that powerful emotional connection. It made them millions by making millions happy. Here to talk about how Elf on the Shelf inspired his own take on a holiday tradition is Neil Hoffman, author and creator of the Mensch on a Bench.

[Lindsey Graham]

Neil Hoffman, thank you so much for.

[Neil Hoffman]

Speaking with me today on Business Movers.

Well, thanks for having me.

[Lindsey Graham]

So we've been talking in this series about the book and franchise of Elf on the Shelf, but I'd like to.

[Neil Hoffman]

Know if you could tell us a.

[Lindsey Graham]

Little bit about your book, the Mensch on the Bench and how it came about.

[Neil Hoffman]

Mensch on the Bench, definitely inspired by Elf on a shelf. About 12 years ago when Elf was at its height, I was walking through a store with my son and he brought me an Elf on a shelf and said, daddy, can we get this? And we'd seen it all over social media and I said, no man, we're Jewish. You could get a Mensch on a bench. And it just kind of rolled off the tongue and right there I kind of of fell in love with that idea and did a quick Internet search, nobody was using the name and decided you Know what? I'm going to have some fun with this, and I want to. I'm in an interfaith relationship, so my wife is Catholic. I'm Jewish, we're raising the boys Jewish. And we felt left out. And we were said, hey, maybe there's a tradition that we can create. I went back that night and wrote the book, and I wanted there to be a reason that there was bench. And I want to tie back to the religious aspect and of Judaism. I didn't want to change anything that was core to the religion. So what I did is I kind of created the forced gump of Judaism. And by that, I mean that Mensch sits there while the miracle of Hanukkah happens in front of him, and he sees it from a different angle. And the miracle of Hanukkah is the oil lasted for eight nights when it should have only lasted for one. And the idea of Mensch is each day he would sit, and when the Jews went to sleep, he would watch over the oil for them at night to see if it went out. Every morning, they'd wake up, they couldn't believe that it was still lit. And he would introduce a different tradition, whether it be latkes or presents or prayers. And that was the inspiration. And Mensch means good and honorable person. The idea was, how can we bring some good Jewish values to families? And then the secret of Hanukkah is because it happens eight nights in a bro, you spread out the excitement pretty evenly versus Christmas, which is one big event. So it gets a little repetitive. It gets a little bit boring when you're on night six, night seven. So the idea was, how do we add five more minutes of fun? And I created these rules of Mensch. Like, you have to name him, you have to move him. He likes to take pictures. One night of Hanukkah, you give gifts to those in need rather than get them yourself. And here we are 12 years later, we've sold a few hundred thousand mensches, and it's an honor to be mentioned in the same breath as Elf on the Shelf.

[Lindsey Graham]

So inspired by Elf on the Shelf, but prompted by your son. What sort of royalties are you paying him?

[Neil Hoffman]

I'm sending him to college.

[Lindsey Graham]

Oh, fair enough. You started your project on Kickstarter. What were the pros and cons of that process versus any other fundraising mechanism?

[Neil Hoffman]

I use Kickstarter as a stage gate to try and understand, were there other people interested in my idea, or was this something that I should just make one of and do in my own home? And I didn't give you my background here, which is also that I worked at Hasbro Toys for six years. I have my mba. I have wanted to make toys my entire life. So this wasn't just out of left field. I had an idea and I had no idea how to do it. So I went to Kickstarter with the idea of will anybody care? And can I raise the $18,000 I need in order to make 500 of these, get the book illustrated, pay for a website, the whole process. And I put it up in May with the goal of putting the product into production and getting it out in November. And what I found was to some degree, nobody cared. Right? Kickstarter did not send anybody to my site. There was nobody actively looking for Hanukkah items during that time. And almost every single person that donated to the Mention bench project, about 300 people. And we did raise the 22,000. I personally reached out to and when you talk about a grind of entrepreneurship, I went through every single Facebook contact I had and personally emailed every person, every single LinkedIn. So I had a full time job at the time. I would go to the Big Boy, the local burger joint every day for lunch and send personalized notes to every single person I've ever met. I could have sold $18,000 in raffle tickets for how hard I worked. But I did raise the money. I did feel good about it. I then went to my wife and said, hey, you know what? We're going to make 500 of these. We've pre sold 300, make $1,000. What's the worst that can happen is we got some extra in the basement and can I borrow $10,000 from you? And God bless her. My wife said yes. And then I'll tell you a little bit more later about kind of what happened.

[Lindsey Graham]

So early fundraising rounds were often titled Friends and Family, and you expanded it to Friends, family and Facebook. In hindsight, is there anything you would have changed about this strategy?

[Neil Hoffman]

What I did is when you say fundraising, I pre sold the items and we didn't take any equity from anyone, so nobody owned any of the company. I had so many offers from friends and family that did want to invest. And I had two problems. One, it was kind of hard to value the company at that stage. And two, just the kind of person I am. I didn't feel right taking somebody's money having mention on a bench not work. And then, sorry, bud, my wife and I are going to go to Hawaii on vacation while I just took your $10,000 and lost it on separate venture. I knew personally I could never do that, and I would pay these people back, and that's a bad investment on my end. So I just decided, you know what? We're going to bootstrap this thing. So from day one, Mensch has essentially been profitable.

[Lindsey Graham]

And then you moved on from Kickstarter and Facebook, and you appeared on Shark Tank. What did you gain from that experience? Which is certainly not the ordinary way of going about a business.

[Neil Hoffman]

So after I got the first 300 pieces or thousand pieces arrived, and I sent out the 300, and I sent out some PR samples, and it's a funny story, because when you talk about, you never know what domino it is. Getting knocked down, that sets off the whole series of events. And I reached out to a whole bunch of people, and there was a Facebook page in my hometown of Marblehead, Massachusetts, and it was run by a realtor, and it had a couple thousand people on there. And I sent a message to him saying, hey, I just launched this new item. I'd really appreciate it if you put it up on the page. I'm a hometown guy, and my mom would be thrilled to see this on your page. The guy took that exact email and posted it. So I'm embarrassed now that he mentions me, you know, wanting to be proud in front of my mom. Well, somebody in my hometown must have worked for CBS Boston and saw that and wrote an article about mention a bench. And it got spread over 500,000 times that morning. By that afternoon, Fox News in Boston carried the story. By that night, it was on Huffington Post. Then the Today show called, and they wanted one. The View wanted one. And those thousand pieces that we had, we sold out. And we took pre orders for another thousand. And next thing I knew, we had sold $100,000 worth of matches in, like, 10 days. And then I said, you know, for next step, I want to go on Shark Tank. You know, it's. It's a bucket list for me. I want to do it. I applied to the show, and then that was when I went on Shark Tank. So I went on at the perfect time, because not only did I have the $100,000 in sales, but the $750,000 in upcoming product to be sold. I was terrified. I mean, my God, I could not have been more scared. And I go out there, and they are not supposed to interrupt you. You're supposed to have 90 seconds of uninterrupted time, and then it's open game. Well, I get about 20 seconds in, and Mark Cuban goes, isn't this offensive? Or, oh. Barbara goes, isn't this offensive? And Marcos, yeah, this is offensive. And Mark's half Jewish, right? So automatically I'm on the def. So I end up getting grilled for about 30 minutes. And it was bad. I mean, it was so bad, I thought about walking out. They had to stop filming at one point to hand me a napkin because I was sweating so badly. And Laurie asked me a question and said, hey, I don't understand this, this, this. And I decided I was gonna take the conversation back. And I said, laurie, do you mind if I answer your question? But if I stop and just kind of tell you the story of how I started, how I got to where I am, how I have $750,000 in sales, about my Hasbro background. And when I did that and they realized I was from Hasbro and I had sales and I wasn't just, you know, a quirky, funny guy, the whole tone changed. And Robert and Laurie fell in love with it, made me an offer. They wanted 30% of the company. I was not prepared to do that. So I talked to my wife about this ahead of time and said if we got a bad offer, I would come back with a lower offer, but I could guarantee their payment back and I would put our house up as collateral for this. And I know it sounds crazy in retrospect, but we had thought through all the scenarios, and that's what I did and ended up getting a deal with Laurie and Robert for 15%. And we were off to the races.

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[Lindsey Graham]

Well, congratulations on surviving that gauntlet. You know something that strikes me about not just the similarity of the product between Mensch on the Bench and Elf.

[Neil Hoffman]

On the Shelf, but the similarity in.

[Lindsey Graham]

The pivot moment of virality. Elf on the Shelf got a huge boost when paparazzi photos of Jennifer Garner went nationwide showing her carrying an Elf on the Shelf. And you too had your own viral moment. Do you think that was necessary for your success or would you have grounded out?

[Neil Hoffman]

Anyways, I think it was necessary for one reason. When I went and got that $750,000 in purchase orders and we shipped out 60,000 mentions that year, it was too many and we didn't know how big the market was. We were guessing we were basing it off Elf and there just aren't that many Jews out there. And the only way to really kill a toy brand is to ship too many of that toy. And I think I would have accidentally killed the business in year one if not for Shark Tank and all those people that saw that show and talked about it and it went viral. Those 60,000 pieces sold through and then for next year we right sized the business and it was fine. So I think it was necessary. I think what happened was with Elf on a Shelf there was a common experience among Jews, right? So Jews already in December kind of feel left out, right? There's all the Christmas music and celebration and now you had a new Tradition with Elf on the Shelf and it was for kids. And now all these kids in your kids classes are doing this really fun, great experience and you feel left out and your choices are you can jump in, you can ignore it, but there was no alternative. So I think because of that, the market was 100% primed for something like Mensch on a bench to come in. And there was pent up demand and these parents were so appreciative that we had a product for them. And then the fact that it was educational and about values and tied back to Judaism, it hit all those core tenants and really resonated.

[Lindsey Graham]

So you're generally quite open about the inspiration you took from Elf on the Shelf. How do you balance paying homage to the original product while creating something uniquely your own?

[Neil Hoffman]

So I thought about this a lot early on and I wanted to make sure that I didn't poke the bear. So when you look at our two products next to each other, there is zero percent chance that you could confuse them. Coming from the same company, I made their boxes closed. I made sure my box was open. The way their character is designed is totally different than mine. The illustration in the books, everything's visually is totally different and then how it's used is different. Where Mensch does not watch over kids to see if they're good or bad. And it's about, you know, learning more so than kind of the more fun experience of Elf. So I want to say their idea was an inspiration for ours and they seeded the market in a way that allowed us to thrive. But it stopped there because I really, I know Krista, we've had dinner together. I think they are wonderful people. And I realize I'm like the annoying little cousin to some degree. And I don't want to poke that bear. I don't want to take their ideas or make it look like I'm trying to copy them. So I was very cognizant of, yes, we've been inspired by you, but that's all. We are not taking any other element of what you're doing other than the inspiration.

[Lindsey Graham]

You mentioned your relationship with Krista and perhaps more of the family. How did they react to your book and doll?

[Neil Hoffman]

Early on I was at toy fair and I asked Krista if she wanted to go out and get drinks. And we ended up having a two hour dinner. And she could not have been nicer. I mean, I was in my first and I know there have been, you know, 20 different companies who have done variants of Elf on the Shelf and some of them have tried to knock them off. Some of them haven't. And she gave me advice. She was kind. And beyond that, we run in separate lanes. They've never said a bad thing about me, which I really appreciate. I'm always complimentary because I recognize that it was their inspiration, was their creativity that inspired my own. So I would say it's a positive but distant relationship. And at least from my perspective, I have nothing but the utmost respect for what these women have done and created and grown. And the fact that most toys, you know, of this size and popularity flare out after two or three years and the fact that they're 15, 20 years in, they are about to achieve the impossible, which is creating an evergreen brand where those original kids that had Elves on a Shelf are now continuing the tradition with their own kids, which is amazing and thankfully opens up the opportunity for Mensch to continue to be around for years to come as well.

[Lindsey Graham]

Let's talk about the allure of the original Elf on the Shelf concept. It resonated deeply with families, including your own. Why did it become this incredible cultural phenomenon?

[Neil Hoffman]

I think it's because it arose at the same time as some of the social media with Pinterest and Facebook. So you had these moms that were doing this really fun creative experience, but now they had a vehicle by which to share that. So I think it went viral. And it went viral, not just in those Kim Kardashian, you know, big ways that she has one, but it's. Somebody in my network showed me something that was cool. And each of these moms reaches a couple thousand people. They. You get a couple more adopters, and it spreads that way. So almost micro influencers and then just people's creativity. Right. I think in December, kind of productivity slows down a little bit. People are spending time with their family. People want to delight their kids. And this idea of the Elf comes back every day in a new and ingenious way, gave some of these families new ways to express themselves. And, you know, and some people taking it further with kind of funny memes and such.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now the. The success of Elf on the Shelf is the ultimate DIY victory story. These are unlikely entrepreneurs with a small niche idea that has taken over an entire season and lasted for over a decade. You've had a similar experience in scaling up from a very small production to a much larger operation. What are the challenges?

[Neil Hoffman]

There are so many, right? I mean, there's. When you grow that quickly, coming up with the capital of how am I going to fund this layer onto that, that it's hyper seasonal, so you're really only getting paid six weeks of the year. So you need to kind of stage gate accordingly. There's the logistics of making goods, bringing them here, getting them to all suppliers and, and then trying to match the fervor of the original social media. And for me, it's how do I keep outdoing myself from a PR standpoint? And what I think I've done, and you know, we've gone in different directions, is I'm constantly trying to reinvent Mensch every year. So core Mensch stays the same. But now we have expanded the Mensch pets, which has the dreidel dog and the Mitzvah moose. This year we just introduced a Junicorn, the Jewish unicorn. So every year we try and introduce something new in addition to what we have to keep this new and fresh. And I think they're doing that as well. They do it in a different way where they have accessory kits that people can play with. They've also pivoted to cartoons and live stage plays and licensing. So I think keeping it fresh after it's kind of blown up is difficult as well.

[Lindsey Graham]

You mentioned many toys burn bright and short. Elf on the Shelf and Mensch on the Bench have not. What do you think it is that makes them enduring? Is it solely because they have the trappings of tradition built into the to the lore?

[Neil Hoffman]

I do. I think it has to do with tradition and experience. And when I say that people are buying Mensch, they're not buying a doll in a book. They're buying an experience that they can share with their kids and their families and that they can share online and they can promote their religion and they're proud. And I think with Elf, it's the same thing. You're not buying an elf. You're buying 25 days of that smile on your kid's face when they come down stairs. So to me, you're not selling chach, you're not selling product, you're selling tradition and experience.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now, some of the critics of Elf on the Shelf say that it promotes the acceptance of surveillance culture among children. What do you make of those criticisms?

[Neil Hoffman]

First of all, for Bench, we did take away the fact that he has to move every day, that if you touch him, you know, there something happens, that there is no overseer of Hanukkah, so he doesn't report back on kids. So some of the friction points that Elf was seeing, I was able to see those and remove those proactively. So we've never had that feedback on Mensch, we've had other negative feedback that we could talk about because I find it interesting with Elf, you know, what I say is it's a tool, right? And parents can use that tool however they deem appropriate. If they say the elf is watching you like a hawk and you have to behave, great. That's good for your house. If you want to say, hey, it's more playful and he's just here to play with you, great. To me, I think it's a load of baloney. I think that for years people have talked about Santa Claus and his nice and naughty list, which is the exact same thing as the elf watching and seeing if you're being good or bad. I think the rise of social media means that everybody is allowed to have an opinion all of the time, and there are plenty of people who feel the need to express an opinion even if they haven't thought it out or, you know, they just want to be controversial. So if you don't want them to surveil, don't have them surveil in your house. You know, to me, that's easy enough. I think they've created a tradition that's all about about fun and family and you know, to me, I think it's people getting upset about something for the sake of being upset.

[Lindsey Graham]

We know you want to delve into more stories of legendary leaders and the pivotal moments that define their careers. So now Wondery gives you exclusive episodes of Business Movers. Explore the triumphs of the retail revolution with the season about Sam Walton building.

[Neil Hoffman]

A Walmart world or what it takes.

[Lindsey Graham]

To be named the king of kicks in the season becoming Nike or how the golden arches have made it to almost every corner of the world in the McDonald's Invasion season. With Wondery, you get early access to all new episodes ad free listening and exclusive access to more true stories of business leaders who risked it all. Wondery members also get exclusive ad free access to hundreds of other chart topping podcasts like American Scandal, History Daily and Business Wars. Elevate your business movers experience with Wondery. Sign up by clicking the link in the episode description or head over to wondery.com each morning.

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[Neil Hoffman]

Foreign.

[Lindsey Graham]

I'm going to veer into a little personal territory here because I'd like to hear about your negative criticisms or the negative criticisms of Mention on the Bench. Because as a person who produces media for the public consumption and many thousands of people do, I am exposed to an enormous amount of negative criticism, and much of which I don't understand or can be certainly hurtful if you're not prepared for it. No one of an entrepreneurial operation of the size of Elf on the Shelf or Mensch on the Bench is really prepared for the negative side of success. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Neil Hoffman]

Yeah, I mean, I like the negative feedback because it means that people are paying attention and we can have some honest conversations. And for me, it's all about intent, right? And my intent in creating this product and promoting this company is all about promoting Judaism within my family and making a positive difference. So to me, it's about communicating that to people. I think our negative feedback can be put in a couple different buckets. The first one I don't listen to at all, which is anti Semitism, right? So occasionally you'll have somebody pop up and, you know, spout off something stupid about Judaism and whatever. Okay, I can't do anything about you. Then there is a segment that says, why are we copying Elf on a shelf? Just because they have it, why do we have to have it? And to those people, I always say, have you read the book? And they say, well, no. And I'll say, well, let me send you a free book and you read it. And if after reading the book and learning the story of Hanukkah and being a mensch and doing good deeds, you don't feel that I'm trying to take this as an opportunity to promote Judaism instead of lose people to secularism, then let's have that conversation. And I've had some rabbis. There was one at a really great organization called Interfaith Family, and they attacked Mensch on a Bench early on. I reached out to that rabbi specifically and said, you have a podcast. I'd like to come on and have this discussion. And by the end of that podcast, she was totally sold. Because I think a lot of people think, hey, this is just a big company making a cash grab, doing a follow on item, which it's not. And when they realize, because it's a labor of love. And then I have gotten some negative comments. And this is the one I think is most valid, is why does the Mensch look like a 19th century Hasidic Jew. And they say it is kind of stereotypical. He's a stereotypical Jewish guy. I think that's fair feedback. When I developed this, I needed to come up with cues that told people he was Jewish. But, you know, I did make him look like Hasidic Jew. Now, what's interesting is, at the time Mensch came out, the Hasidic community was getting some negative feedback for how they were dealing with divorces. And there was some stuff going on in the community that just wasn't. There was not a lot of positive pr. And suddenly there were a hundred thousand kids who were cuddling and hugging a Hasidic Jew and welcoming into their house and loving it. And that community has been so supportive. They love that for the first time, there's a figure that looks like them and is put out in a positive way and is doing positive Jewish values. So from the Hasidic community, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback. I'm very mindful of our role in the Jewish community. And there are a couple things I won't do. I won't let Mensch become bigger than the holiday. I do not want to create a Jewish Santa Claus, right? I want it to be all about the Maccabees and lighting the oil, and Mensch is part of that, but not bigger than that. And I think that is a problem with Christmas that I have is, you know, Santa is bigger than Jesus, and you've kind of flip flopped. And I. I don't want to be responsible for that happening. The other thing is, I don't want to promote stereotypes, right? And I have had people reach out to me, for example, and say, hey, we want to do a mention a bench Halloween costume. And I said, no, I do not want people dressed up in jest as classic Jews and finding that funny because of me, right? And that is for me, where I've draw the line and say, nope, you know what? That doesn't promote my cause. And they'll say, well, you don't have to do any work. We'll just write you check. Here's $10,000. And to me, it's not worth it. I say, absolutely not. I don't want to do it. So beyond that, I follow Facebook, Twitter, and I engage with some of the haters because I like that conversation and I like trying to convert them over to our team. And as we've done more and more fun things like the Junicorns, they're less controversial. Who isn't going to love a Jewish.

[Lindsey Graham]

Unicorn on the theme of expanding the franchise. In 2013, the company behind Elf on the Shelf tried to expand beyond Christmas by releasing a follow up book, A Birthday Tradition. It was not as successful. Why you think this birthday themed book did not capture the same sort of success as the original?

[Neil Hoffman]

I think there are a couple reasons. I think one is that Christmas provides a shared experience that everybody experiences at the same time. So when you spread out birthdays, it's not as interesting. Watching somebody celebrate their own kid's birthday for or two weeks leading up to it doesn't have that same appeal necessarily. I also think that Elf on a Shelf created tradition in a box and it is awesome and people love it and it's work, right? It's a decent amount of work to come up with these ideas and really engage your kids. And there have been countless people who have tried to create other traditions in a box for numerous other occasions, whether it be Valentine's Day, whether they do silly McGilly for St. Patrick's Day. I've seen a veterans version troop on stoop, I've seen Thanksgiving versions, Halloween version with the Switch Witch and I. I think none of them have caught on in a major way because I don't think parents have the capacity mentally to do tradition in a box multiple times a year and put that effort in and pour their hearts into it. I think it's a labor of love and I think if they could go back they might say, hey, maybe we do the 12 days of Christmas instead 25. Because it is, you know, so much coming up with all these ideas. So I don't think that's necessarily on Elf. I think that's on this idea of Tradition in a box. Match a bunch being same thing. I've tried to expand Mention to Passover and wrote a book. There's something at Passover called the Afikolman. So I did the Afikomensch and yeah, people liked it, but there wasn't that same receptivity of let's all kind of do this together as a phenomenon.

[Lindsey Graham]

I'd like to talk about self publishing a bit. Even though Elf on the Shelf is kind of a hybrid, it certainly started with the book idea first. Back then, self publishing was a fairly new enterprise. The infrastructure for it wasn't exactly as established as it is now. What do you think the advantages to self publishing are and how have they changed in the decade and a half of Elf on the Shelf's existence?

[Neil Hoffman]

I think self publishing allows you control. At least that's what it did for us. I think in an era where social media has the ability to make things go viral overnight that anyone at any time could be sitting on the right idea at the right time at the right place and then it's just about grinding and finding the right audience and doing it well. Especially with, you know, TikTok for example, there's something called book talk where people review books and they talk about it and it's a whole viral phenomenon. And actually my favorite book is a book by by this author named Brandon Sanderson. He is wonderful and it's a book called Mistborn. Came out I think 12, 14 years ago this week became a New York Times bestseller for the first time 12 years after release because of BookTok because people are talking about this and discovering it and sharing it and I think whether that was self published or published by someone else doesn't matter because. Because the consumer doesn't care. They just want to experience that. So I think with the rise of social media and targeted advertising if you dream it, you can do it. It's just a matter about risk mitigation and not ordering 10,000 books when you can order a thousand.

[Lindsey Graham]

One of the things that self publishing and I guess part of this is social media in our society is that that the traditional gatekeepers in this case the publishing industry, they provide a function of quality control and then product support. Those are absent in a self publishing environment and you have to rely on viral moments or this wave of popularity. What are the pros and cons of the old versus new publishing universe?

[Neil Hoffman]

I can tell you some of the cons of not going with the main publisher. So I could say by self publishing mention a bench has never gotten mass distribution as a book in any store. So Barnes and Noble, you know books million they don't carry mention bench Just because I'm a toy maker and I don't know what I'm doing the other and you talk about wonderfully in quality control. In the first year of mensch I got my products, opened them up and the books were not bound well, the quality was terrible and you would open it up and the pages were falling out and my wife and I had a conversation and I said look, look, I've reached out to every single person I've ever met and about match I can't have this going out with this kind of quality. So we went and we paid $7,000 to have these books reprinted overnight. Airship to us hired an entrepreneurship class from high school. They came to my house and replaced every single book in the first thousand mentions. It was a nightmare and it was expensive it was money we'll never get back. It was money well spent. But if we were working with, say, a Random House or a Penguin, that never would have happened. Right. The downside of self publishing is you're just kind of trusting someone in China to have appropriate, you know, quality control. And when you're in that big of a rush, trying to hit a holiday season, it doesn't always happen. So the problem is you got to find the right agent. You got to find somebody who's willing to take on your book. And there are low barriers to entry. Right. I've written six books. If I can do it, anybody can do it. Right? They're not great literature. And I'm sure there are plenty of people writing books, and only so many can actually go on the shelf. So trying to get someone's attention to publish your book is very difficult. But if you're able to do it, I think it's a great way to go.

[Lindsey Graham]

So finally, this is a business show, and I'd like to know what you think the business lessons our listeners can learn from the rise and continued rise of Elf on the Shelf.

[Neil Hoffman]

I think it's such an inspirational story that if you have something that you are doing within your home that you feel you want to share with the world, and that is your gift to the world, that there's a model to do that. And I think that is what these women have done. And, you know, I honestly, I think they've given a gift to the world of. There are millions of kids that have had additional joy brought to multiple years of their Christmas because this family decided, hey, this is something we do. That's kind of cute. That's fun. Why don't we try and bring it out to a broader audience? And it wasn't a big company. It wasn't people who had done this before. It was people who were willing to learn as they were doing it. And they did it the right way. Right. They have good hearts, they're kind, they pay it forward. I've never heard anybody say a bad word about anyone in Lumastella, which is a tribute to them, you know, And I. I think they did it. They did it the right way, and they now have a legacy that will outlive them, which is really cool.

Well, Neil, thank you so much for speaking with me today on Business Movers.

[Lindsey Graham]

And I wish you continued success with Mensch on the Bench.

[Neil Hoffman]

Well, thank you, and happy Hanukkah, or Merry Christmas, whatever you celebrate.

That was my conversation with Neil Hoffman, author and creator of The Mensch on a Bench from Wondery. This is the final episode of our series on the Elf on the Shelf. On the next season of Business Movers, bookseller Barnes and Noble is on the edge of collapse before a new CEO is appointed with a vision to turn the chain around and make it fit for the Internet age.

[Lindsey Graham]

If you like Business Movers, you can unlock exclusive episodes found nowhere else on Wondery and access new episodes early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a survey at Wondery.

If you'd like to learn more about.

[Neil Hoffman]

The traditions and commercialization of Christmas, we recommend Christmas Past, the Fascinating Stories Behind Our Favorite Holidays Traditions by Brian Earle and the Battle for a Cultural History of America's Most Cherished Holiday by Stephen Nissenblau. A quick note about our dramatizations in most cases, we can't know everything that happened, but all our reenactments are based on historical historical research. Business Movers is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship Audio editing by Mohammed Shahzir sound design by Gabriel Gould music by Lindsey Graham. This episode is written and researched by Joe Garra, coordinating producer Jake Sampson. Executive producers are William Simpson for airship and Aaron O'Flaherty, Jenny Lauer Beckman and.

[Lindsey Graham]

Marshall Louie for Wondering.

[I]

Hello ladies and germs, boys and girls, the Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all. Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out, Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad free by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery App, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.