Ed Hollander's competitive spirit made him one of the greats

Summary

Business of Home Podcast: Ed Hollander's Competitive Spirit Made Him One of the Greats
Host: Dennis Scully
Release Date: May 5, 2025

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully engages in a profound conversation with landscape architect Ed Hollander. With a career spanning over three decades, Ed shares insights into his journey, the ethos driving his renowned firm, and the evolving landscape of interior and exterior design.

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Ed Hollander's Competitive Spirit and Career Beginnings

Ed Hollander's journey in landscape architecture is a testament to resilience and passion. Starting from humble beginnings, Ed recounts his academic struggles and how a blend of competitive spirit and unwavering dedication propelled him into the industry.

Ed Hollander [22:26]: "I perfected that... because I'm enormously competitive."

Ed's early days were marked by skepticism; despite poor undergraduate grades, his profound knowledge in horticulture and relentless work ethic earned him a place at the University of Pennsylvania's esteemed landscape architecture program.

Ed Hollander [21:44]: "I was a kid with terrible undergraduate grades but some horticultural knowledge applying to the landscape architecture programs."

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Formation and Growth of Hollander Design

In 1991, amidst a recession, Ed and his colleague Marianne Connolly founded Hollander Design after leaving the established firm Clark and Rapuano. The initial days were challenging, with a small team operating from a cramped sixth floor space. However, resilience and teamwork saw the firm grow rapidly.

Ed Hollander [13:20]: "We started out with a little room, and then we hired one woman, then a couple people, and then we kind of grew to take over the sixth floor."

Fifteen years ago, the firm diversified beyond residential projects, embracing commercial and hospitality ventures. This strategic shift not only expanded their portfolio but also solidified Hollander Design's reputation as a versatile and innovative landscape architecture powerhouse.

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Collaborations with Renowned Architects and Designers

A significant portion of the conversation delves into Ed's collaborations with industry luminaries such as Peter Prenoyer, Bonnie Williams, and Tom Kligerman. These partnerships are built on mutual respect, shared visions, and the seamless integration of architecture and landscape.

Ed Hollander [08:10]: "We're not going to come into this with, this is my vision, this is my ego. We don't just give lip service to collaboration. We really enjoy it."

Ed emphasizes the importance of adaptability, working across diverse architectural styles—from modernist clean lines to traditional ecological designs—ensuring that each landscape is a harmonious extension of the building it complements.

Ed Hollander [05:20]: "Our landscapes... have to be a reflection of that building. It has to seem as though there are two hands attached to one head."

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Impact of COVID-19 on Landscape Architecture

The pandemic reshaped people's relationship with their homes and outdoor spaces. Ed explains how landscapes transformed from passive visual elements to active living spaces, driven by increased time spent at home and a heightened focus on health and wellness.

Ed Hollander [17:17]: "Landscapes went from places that you looked at to places that you lived in."

This shift led to a surge in demand for outdoor living structures, fire pits, water features, and productive landscapes, influencing Hollander Design's approach to creating functional and beautiful outdoor environments.

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International Projects and Recognition

Ed highlights the firm's international acclaim, recounting projects in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and other global locales. The prestigious AD100 recognition underscores Hollander Design's influence and excellence in landscape architecture.

Ed Hollander [12:14]: "Assuming that all commercial development has to do with somebody making money off our name... there's a reverence for landscape, there's a reverence for gardens."

His interactions with global dignitaries, including a memorable dinner with King Charles, further illustrate the firm's esteemed position in the international design community.

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Differentiating Landscape Architect vs. Designer

A key discussion point is the distinction between landscape architects and garden designers. Ed elucidates the comprehensive scope of landscape architecture, which encompasses scientific understanding of ecology, geology, and hydrology, contrasted with the more limited focus of garden designers.

Ed Hollander [30:05]: "A garden designer can lay out a pretty garden. Landscape architect... we're creating space for people to live in and enjoy."

This depth of expertise allows Hollander Design to undertake complex projects, from large-scale resorts to intricate residential gardens, ensuring sustainable and ecologically sound designs.

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Future Plans and Firm Leadership

As Hollander Design continues to thrive, Ed shares his vision for the firm's future. Emphasizing mentorship and partnership, he outlines the transition of leadership to long-standing partners like Jeff Valentino, Steven Eich, and Melissa Rivas. This strategic succession ensures the firm's legacy and continued innovation.

Ed Hollander [34:30]: "They get to learn from me. It will be what they make it."

Adaptability remains a cornerstone philosophy, allowing the firm to embrace new challenges and technologies, such as virtual design meetings via Zoom, enhancing collaboration and efficiency.

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Personal Insights and Overcoming Challenges

Ed's personal journey reflects his professional ethos. Balancing work with family life, particularly supporting his daughter Renata who struggles with autism, has instilled in him profound empathy and resilience.

Ed Hollander [39:08]: "Love conquers all... Your level of joy is because I'm so lucky."

His candid discussions about managing ADHD highlight how personal challenges have been transformed into strengths, fostering a work environment that values passion, intelligence, and camaraderie.

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Advice for Aspiring Landscape Architects

Concluding the conversation, Ed offers invaluable advice to those aspiring to enter the field:

1. Pursue Your Passion: "Do what you love. If you do what you love, you'll love what you do and you'll be better at it."
2. Embrace Collaboration: Building meaningful relationships with clients and peers leads to sustained success.
3. Adapt and Innovate: Flexibility in the face of change ensures longevity and relevance in the industry.
4. Prioritize Team Fit: Hiring individuals who align with the firm's culture, including being dog lovers, enhances workplace harmony.

Ed Hollander [36:42]: "Do what you love... The only reason I can think that we've been modestly successful is that we kind of love what we do."

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Conclusion

Ed Hollander's story is one of perseverance, adaptability, and unwavering passion for landscape architecture. His ability to blend competitive drive with collaborative spirit has not only elevated his firm but also left an indelible mark on the interior and exterior design communities globally. This episode serves as an inspiring blueprint for aspiring designers and a testament to the transformative power of dedication and love for one's craft.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ed Hollander [05:20]: "Our landscapes... have to be a reflection of that building. It has to seem as though there are two hands attached to one head."
• Ed Hollander [17:17]: "Landscapes went from places that you looked at to places that you lived in."
• Ed Hollander [22:26]: "I perfected that... because I'm enormously competitive."
• Ed Hollander [36:42]: "Do what you love... The only reason I can think that we've been modestly successful is that we kind of love what we do."

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Listen to the full episode on Business of Home to gain deeper insights into Ed Hollander's illustrious career and the dynamic world of landscape architecture.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is landscape architect Ed Hollander. A veteran of the industry, Ed has brought his expertise to projects around the world and has collaborated with design and architecture luminaries like Peter Prenoyer, Bonnie Williams and Tom Kliger. His firm, Hollander Design, is one of the few landscape architecture practices to earn a spot on the AD100. I spoke with Ed about how a competitive spirit has fueled his career, his connection to King Charles, and what happened when residential landscapes went from being something you looked at to something you lived.

[Ed Hollander]

In.

[Dennis Scully]

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[Ed Hollander]

Well, you know spring. Spring brings all sorts of wonderful things, but it brings an enormous amount of work at the same time. So not only are we working on designing the myriad urban projects and hospitality projects and residential projects in California and Utah and Florida and Long island and Nantucket and wherever we are. But there are certain areas like the Hamptons and Nantucket, where Memorial Day is this Everything's got to be done either crisis or holiday, take your pick, depending on which way you look at it. So there will be days when we'll have four or five people out, placing plants, moving trees, being there, flogging contractors, getting out cattle prods, doing Whatever we need to do so that we can try to get things done by this magical schedule. I always find time to stop when saucer magnolias are in flower, and I'll stop and I'll put my face in and breathe in the scent of a magnolia and things like that. But that's in between bouts of insanity and insomnia. Listen, if you're doing a lot of work in Palm beach, it's Thanksgiving, you know, it's the beginning of the season. So it depends where. It depends where you are. But we always have 30 or 40 houses under construction in the Hamptons at any one time. So it seems to add a level of insanity to the ongoing insanity.

[Dennis Scully]

Is that right, that you have 30 or 40 houses under construction at all times? In that.

[Ed Hollander]

Yeah, we do a lot because our work is so diverse. We work. And not that Donald Trump should be against that. This is a good kind of diversity, but, I mean, we work with modern architects, from Annabelle Seldorf and Stephen Hole and Leroy street and any of the great modernists, to Robert a.m. stern and Ferguson Shamani and Peter Pannoyer to anyone that's more traditional and very formal and very ecological. So we get called in on a lot of projects with great differences in style and location and things like that. We've had projects where we have started with a modernist and the clients have changed to a traditionalist, and yet we keep working. We just change kind of style. I mean, someone once said to me, we have no style, which I disagree with. Wait a second. But it does give us the ability to work on a lot of different kinds of projects, which is really more fun. I mean, if we had a style or that was a Hollander landscape, I would find that to be as much of a criticism as a compliment.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, but what is the difference between what a modernist, what Annabel Sealdorf would want, versus what Tom Kligerman would want?

[Ed Hollander]

Well, Tom's a pain in the ass. We know that. Annabelle's a pleasure. But aside from that, aside from the personality, contemporary architecture is about clean. They're clean lines. There tends to be orthogonal shapes, and there are big panes of glass. So there's a lot of inside out and outside in. A lot of the modern architecture is built on the bay, on the ocean, a place where you're really connecting much more visually with the natural environment. Because all of our projects, we really work off natural ecology, architectural ecology, human ecology. Our landscapes, particularly in proximity to the buildings, have to be a reflection of that building. It has to seem as though there Are two hands attached to one head. So every project starts with the site. What is the natural ecology of the site? What does the land look like? Where, where are its views? What's the topography? What's the soils? What are the drainage? How do you understanding that? That sites and landscapes are living things, from the bedrock geology to what's growing there. It's all connected and it's all alive. So we need to understand that. We need to understand the architecture and then we need to understand the human who's living there. Is it one family? I mean, everybody's. And it's obviously different in the residential work we do than the commercial work or the hospitality work. But when we're doing people's homes, homes are reflections of. Home is kind of a built reflection of a family. And the landscapes that go along with that are living reflections of the family. And every family is different. We've had properties that we've. That have sold and changed hands from family to family, where we bulldozed out our previous work. Okay. It doesn't work for them.

[Dennis Scully]

So give me an example of. So it didn't work for them because what there's not.

[Ed Hollander]

They changed style of architecture, you know, or, you know, it was an older couple and now it's a family with four young kids. It was someone who loved formal gardens versus someone who loves meadows and pollinators and running through long grass. So what makes it home for them can be very different. Even within the same, you know, 2 acres, 3 acres, whatever it is, they may have a totally different. It might be multi generational, it may be young. So you have to be adaptable. I'm everything at work. My wife says I'm not at home.

[Dennis Scully]

He's so flexible at work.

[Ed Hollander]

But she'll get to hear things like, you know, he's such a good listener and she's just like.

[Dennis Scully]

And Wendy's scratching her head.

[Ed Hollander]

Wendy's scratching her head and using a few, like, you're ready. Really? So you use up, you use up all those genes at work. I can tell.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, you have to be. I mean, you do work with so many different architects and designers, right?

[Ed Hollander]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

And you.

[Ed Hollander]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

And they all have very different personalities and very different demeanors and you have.

[Ed Hollander]

And different styles and it's. We're not going to come into this with, this is my vision, this is my ego. We don't just give lip service to collaboration. We really enjoy it. I mean, we're lucky. We get to work with some of the world's best architects and designers. We get to work on some of the most beautiful pieces of property. We get to work with a lot of clients that have the means to allow us to create really special places. But a lot of the joy that we get is working with our other professionals. And I think that joy is reflected in what you see in the landscape.

[Dennis Scully]

I want to come back to the architects and the people that you work with, because it's an incredible array of people. And I want to talk about what you've learned from working with all of them, but focusing on the moment that we're in right now. So all we hear about is the housing crisis, the resale market very cold right now, interest rates high. My guess is that's not affecting your world so much if you've got 30, 40 homes being built in the Hamptons all the time and work all over the country. But you tell me.

[Ed Hollander]

I think we're in a very fortunate spot at this point in my career, with the work that the office has produced that we probably get offered a job a week, and we probably turn away more than half of them either. We had someone call, they were in British Columbia, would love to do a place in British Columbia. How are we going to get to British Columbia?

[Dennis Scully]

Little far.

[Ed Hollander]

Little far. Well, that's the problem is, you know, Right. There's a romance to doing a house in St. Barts till you realize you're on the afternoon flight with everybody else who's there drinking their first Mai Tai. You're working on the site that afternoon, you're working on the site the next morning, and then you're battling flying home. So the romance of travel. I mean, we have nine or 10 projects in Taiwan. So I'll go to Taiwan for 48 hours. Now it's 17 and a half on the plane getting there and 16 and a half on the plane coming back. Ouch. And it's a lot of fun and it's interesting. We get offered a lot of work. We can't do all the work we're offered, which is great. So we're in a good spot with that, not just because of me, but because of the other people that work here. So am I nervous about the future? Always. But I think if we founded this firm in 1991, there's only four days a year of comfort where you think, I actually have this figured out. We're in the sweet spot. The other 361 days, you're really pulling your hair out because we don't have enough work and we have more than we could possibly do.

[Dennis Scully]

What did they want in Taiwan. What brought you to Taiwan?

[Ed Hollander]

We're doing nine or 10 big. We're doing apartment complexes, urban parks. We've done projects in Hong Kong. We've done private residential and development projects. Taiwan is all commercial residential buildings, parks, things like that. And it's very interesting because you're working in a different world with a different culture. And my first question is, why are they bringing me to Taiwan?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. That's where I'm at.

[Ed Hollander]

So you have to begin to realize, and this is always a shock to me, that our name is of some value.

[Dennis Scully]

You're famous. You are so big. It's in Taiwan. They know you.

[Ed Hollander]

Taiwan. They know us. You know, over there. My wife and I were having dinner with King Charles in January.

[Dennis Scully]

Absolutely.

[Ed Hollander]

So I mean. Yeah, it's like me. You sure? Wait, you didn't address this to the wrong person. So while it. While I still find this astonishing. Yeah, Holland Design, big name. Heard of us. Juana's there will add value. Assuming that all commercial development has to do with somebody making money off our name. And there is a reverence for landscape, there's a reverence for gardens. You know, when we were first there, we get treated beautifully because people who create gardens talk to God. You know, as a little Jewish boy, that sounds pretty good. See, even skipping out from Sunday school, I still live. I've got a connection.

[Dennis Scully]

So that's what it is. They think you are.

[Ed Hollander]

Well, I think they've seen the work that we've done. They're trying to elevate the work that they do. They're trying to bring their work up to the level of world class architecture found in other places.

[Dennis Scully]

You mentioned starting the firm in 1991.

[Ed Hollander]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Tell me what the early days looked like for you because they were so different. Right. Than where you are.

[Ed Hollander]

So it's 1991. We're in a real recession. I am working for a firm called Clark and Rapawano. Clark and Rapuano. Gilmore Clark was best friends with a guy named Robert Moses, which if you're a landscape arkite, that's a good guy to be friends with. So Clark and Rapilano built everything from. They designed. They were looking for every park that Robert Moses did. The United Nations, Battery Park, Robert Moses State park, the parkways. Their list of work was phenomenal as Clark and both Gilmore Clark and Mike Rapuano had retired years before I'd gotten there. And the guys that took it over, they taught me how not to run a firm because they managed to take. It was like the Olmsted Brothers ran their firm into the ground.

[Dennis Scully]

Unbelievably.

[Ed Hollander]

It doesn't matter.

[Dennis Scully]

I built Central park.

[Ed Hollander]

Right. Right, you can. So. And there was a woman who I went to graduate school with named Marianne Connolly. She was working at the Parks Department. So everybody was getting laid off. Clark and Rapuano was getting sold to a group of highway engineers. We had been doing some nighttime projects here and there. And we said, okay. So that was the two of us. And so it started. There was a wonderful guy named Bill Lacy. Bill was an architect that ran the Pritzker Prize, and I knew him from playing softball out in Sac Harbor. He had the sixth floor at the Divinney Press building on fourth and Lafayette. And it was him. It was an entire sixth floor of this thing with a carpet and his desk. And so we started out with a little room, and then we hired one woman, then a couple people, and then we kind of grew to take over the sixth floor. And then we were there on nine, 11 people streaming up Lafayette, barefoot, ashen. And the guys that owned the building said, because we had just been working with a month to month lease for it, whatever it was, 10 years, they said, you have to leave, because now this space is gonna be worth a fortune. You have to leave. The real change, I think happened about 15 years ago. Melissa started here. Steven Eich and Jeff Valentino had both worked for Hare Shout in Chicago. And they all brought different talents and skills than we really had. And so the urban studio has really grown based on the skills that Steven brought to the office. Jeff moved out to Chicago and has built that office. And Melissa kind of is a partner that runs the residential studio here. So that about 15 years ago is where the office really started to diversify into more than just residential work. And it was interesting because a lot of our first commercial developments, you know, we did Jerry Speyer's home. So Tishman Speyer hired us to do buildings. We work for Steve Ross and Jeff Blau from Related. So they hired us to work on Related's commercial work. And we've been working on a master plan for the next phase of Hudson Yards. So there was a connection between the residential work leading to commercial work and the other thing that happened is the concept of home. Home became something that was enormously valuable, that had a sense of the term home means something to a lot of people. And our name became kind of synonymous with home. And whether home is your own personal home, your home within a big condominium complex, or home at a beautiful commercial resort, that term really really resonated with a lot of people and I think was something that drew people to our firm.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Thiebaud. Are you a design professional looking for a trusted source for exclusive wall coverings, fabrics, trims, rugs, and furniture? With the Thibautrade account, you'll gain access to premium benefits, including a dedicated support team, easy online ordering, and exclusive designs from their family of brands. Learn more and apply [e-mail] trade and now back to the show. There's a perception, Ed, and I'm wondering how it shows up in your world. There's a perception that coming out of COVID to your point, once again, we feel very differently about home, right? This hyper connection to home, but we also feel very differently about our outdoor space. If we're lucky enough to have outdoor space. And it's been this boom for the outdoor furniture markets, and we're building and spending more time out there than ever before. Has that shown up in a absolutely meaningful.

[Ed Hollander]

It was landscapes went from places that you looked at to places that you lived in. Landscapes before had been dangerous. They're bugs and bees and ticks to places of health and refuge, because if you were outside, you were safe. So I think it absolutely changed the relationship that people had with their landscapes and their gardens. They went from places to admire to places to live in. And we had people that were in their homes for the first time year round. And I'd get a call this time of year. What are all these pink trees in the yard? Said they're cherry trees. When did we plant them? It's like, oh, 12 years ago. You just haven't been there to see it.

[Dennis Scully]

And so people wanted more outdoor living structures.

[Ed Hollander]

And I think, you know, and it's never one thing, as people travel more and more, they go to different types of resorts. And resorts are great innovators for creating spaces that people want to live in outside. So wherever they are, they're seeing different types of outdoor structures and fire pits and water features and gardens. And you had Covid, you had people traveling to resorts and seeing outdoor living areas. You had people wanting to be healthier. All of, you know, landscapes have gotten more productive. We're growing more food in our landscapes, and we're using less chemicals in our landscapes. But I think home, Covid, health and wellness, all those things kind of. And listen, during COVID people's relationship to their money changed all of a sudden. It's like life became kind of finite, and there Was. And it's like, why am I sitting on this fortune and not enjoying it?

[Dennis Scully]

And so that happened for a lot.

[Ed Hollander]

Of your clients, the ones that had fortunes, they saw. It happened to everybody. I know. Listen, even at our house, we always had a screen porch. And now there was a big TV on the screen porch so my wife could sit outside with friends and watch movies and enjoy each other. And we put a fire pit. You found new ways to enjoy the outside.

[Dennis Scully]

I want to take a detour for a moment because we talked about the early days of starting your firm. I want to go back even further and I should point out for listeners that Ed and I are sitting in Ed's office at Ed's desk. And Ed has some very impressive looking degrees up on his wall and he's from the. From the state of New York. And. And remind me, you went to Vassar?

[Ed Hollander]

Yes, I went to Vassar. I went to Vassar as the worst student in the history of Vassar College.

[Dennis Scully]

I don't believe that.

[Ed Hollander]

Trust me, okay? Trust me. Okay. But what I did learn at Vassar, by the time there was a horticulture class there and an old Swedish horticulturist named Sven Sward, and he said, listen, you connect to this, you relate to this. You shouldn't be going to law school or business school. This is where your passion is. And so one of my senior thesis projects was to identify all the trees on the campus so that it could become an arboretum, which was A, a lot of fun for me, B, and girls thought it was really cool that I could identify all the trees. So there was always a.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Ed Hollander]

There was an agora cultural and a horticultural and a life process to all of that. But that was my first introduction to plants and living things and things like that. So I got out of Assar and I ended up going, enrolling in the New York Botanical Garden horticulture program. So I studied horticulture and ecology there for a couple years and I enjoyed that. And while I could never speak any foreign language to save my life, Latin came to me like that. All the plant names made sense. Okay, now what am I going to do? Am I going to be a gardener? Okay, maybe. Fun. This. That decided I could study landscape architecture because what I really wanted to be was an urban forester, city kid, trees.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay, Okay.

[Ed Hollander]

I go down with no portfolio whatsoever. And everyone has always told me, don't bother, they'll never accept you. So here I am, a kid with terrible undergraduate grades but some horticultural knowledge applying to the landscape architecture programs. That I think at Harvard, Penn and UMass, with everyone saying, they'll never let you in. And yet they did. And I was down at Penn talking to Ian McCarg and some other people. And at that point, I wanted to be an urban forester. I didn't know what landscape architecture was. And I'm applying to their graduate schools and getting accepted.

[Dennis Scully]

And once again, how.

[Ed Hollander]

No idea.

[Dennis Scully]

How were you accepted?

[Ed Hollander]

No idea.

[Dennis Scully]

University of Pennsylvania. It's an Ivy League school.

[Ed Hollander]

And, you know, Penn was one of the leading programs because once I got there, then I was a good student. Then I. Then I had found my niche. And the one thing I found I could do is I could outwork anybody. I couldn't draw, I couldn't design, but I could get in the studio at seven in the morning and I could stay there till two in the morning and work and work and work and learn. Now I get to the bars before they close. Before last call, mind you. Didn't want to leave that part of my life out altogether.

[Dennis Scully]

But where did that come from? Where did you really? Oh, I learned that early that I'm.

[Ed Hollander]

Clear of drinking and the misbehaving, I learned at a young age. I perfected that.

[Dennis Scully]

But the work ethic, the hard work.

[Ed Hollander]

I think just because I'm enormously competitive.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Ed Hollander]

And when you're told all the time that you can't succeed, okay, you want to see me. So there was a competitive gene that exists through this day that made me want to prove people wrong. If you read my report cards, if you had every perfect symptom of adhd, Ed can't pay attention. Ed can't read. I thought. I thought if was a grade. If Ed could do if. How could you get so many ifs on a report card? But, you know, in today's world, you know, they would have been pumping me full of Adderall.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes.

[Ed Hollander]

At, you know, at age nine. And I was. And I have several friends, people who have ADHD and all those things.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Ed Hollander]

If you learn how to manage it, you can do three things at one time. So that's incredible. If anything, you know, you take what is a disability and make it an advantage.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. But once again, to your point, look how many people you proved wrong. Right, Right.

[Ed Hollander]

Right.

[Dennis Scully]

Does that feel fantastic?

[Ed Hollander]

Doesn't hurt.

[Dennis Scully]

Doesn't hurt.

[Ed Hollander]

Doesn't hurt. Doesn't hurt. And listen, you know, so we got this in this. I'm involved with the Institute for Classical Architecture and Arts, and I'm on the board there, and we've done a couple of the thing with Tom that was on PBS and things like that and which is great. I'm doing this thing and this woman comes up to me after she goes, oh, I thought that'd be lovely. My boss would love that. I said, who's your boss? She goes, you know His Majesty. I was like, well, no, I don't know him, but I'm glad he'd like it. And she said, would you send him a book? So I sent him a book and, you know, signed it politely. And a few months later I get an invitation. Would I be. Would come over to Dumfries House and tour the gardens and look at the work that the King's foundation is doing with sustainable design and things like that. And I was like, okay, but can my wife come? Because she's a historian and a scholar. And they said, well, we don't normally have wives or significant others join on these things. I said, well, I wrote back an email saying I'd love to come and it's very important to me that Wendy join me. And I would hate to have to give His Majesty my regrets.

[Dennis Scully]

Look at you laying it down like that.

[Ed Hollander]

Yeah, you know, you gotta. My wife puts up with a lot of. So she just. So then they said, great. So we had a great time. We went with Peter Lyden, who's the head of the icaa, and the work they're doing is fabulous. He really does care about the environment. He really does care and he really cares about people at Dumfries. They're doing all these fabulous. They've got two different sets of programs going on. One where they're teaching traditional crafts and skills and one where they're teaching skills. It's a reasonably depressed part of Scotland, kind of post coal mining, and their classes in working in kitchens and wellness. It was actually pretty inspirational. It was a lot of fun.

[Dennis Scully]

I'm sure it was. And we should explain for listeners. So Dumfries is this incredible property that the Royal family purchased.

[Ed Hollander]

Not him. No, he purchased. So there are. Listen, the Royal. I don't know everything the Royals own, but it's a lot. Let's say Dumfries he purchased personally and has spent years converting it. And they're raising heritage livestock and animals and growing things and gardens and all sorts of stuff. But it's his kind of personal passion.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes. And uses it to your point, for education.

[Ed Hollander]

It's open 24,7 to the public as parklands and strolling. It's a good thing.

[Dennis Scully]

And it had all of the original chippendale furniture from when the home was.

[Ed Hollander]

Again, I'm a Jewish kid from Manhattan. What do I know from Chippendale? But it's a big deal. I mean people, it has all of the. And these things are worth millions of dollars, I guess.

[Dennis Scully]

Incredible, right?

[Ed Hollander]

And it's like, okay, I'm an outside guy, so it's Chippendale inside. Right.

[Dennis Scully]

But he brings you. And he's. And he's. Yes, he knows of the work that.

[Ed Hollander]

You'Ve done and we talked about landscape and so. And obviously they've just been planting a lot of the area. So at the end of the evening, I'm kind of holding him by the elbow and my wife's looking at me. What are you doing? Grabbing the king. And I said, you know, 20 years from now you and I will go, we'll see how the gardens grow in. And he's older than I'm 20 years from now. That's a lovely idea. It couldn't have been, couldn't have been more fun and more accommodating.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. Now he's coming to the Chelsea Flower show because he's quite passionate about that.

[Ed Hollander]

He's there every year and I was going to go this year. Too busy.

[Dennis Scully]

What happens at the Chelsea Flower Show?

[Ed Hollander]

The Chelsea Flower show is like nothing that exists in this country. So what they do there, I mean it's a commercial enterprise. And the best master gardeners, landscape designers in the uk, set up these exhibits which they design and build, which are unbelievably well executed and crafted and probably cost between a half a million and a million dollars to set up for a week. And I went there one year and I got there at sunrise. So it's 5:15, 5:30 on a misty British morning and you've got these series of garden vignettes and landscapes and trees and flowers and everything's perfect and in flower at the right moment. And there are birds and their butterflies and the fragrance. And I'm walking through this thing. I mean it was as close to heaven as you could be on earth. It was as a landscape architect, it's remarkable. And then I was back last year, Melissa, my partner, we went over with David and then it's just a three day drink a thon. That's all they. Doesn't matter. As soon as you're up, they're topping you off with champagne. And we had press breakfast when our book had just come out. So they had assigning books and engaging in all sorts of the parties over there. It's something people should do if they're at all interested in this because the architecture and the landscape and what they build and what they create for this period of time is remarkable. Foreign.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Immerse your clients in elevated design with Ernesta's curated collection of custom size rugs. Explore a vast variety of options that work for your creative vision through complimentary unlimited samples. Gain access to exclusive trade discounts and received personalized project support through Ernesta's dedicated team of consultants. To apply for membership to Ernesta's trade program or to learn more, visit ernesta.com boh and now back to the show. Shifting gears a little bit because part of why I wanted to talk about your academic career, or lack thereof. Well, no, no, but you've made a strong comeback right at the end, right? You found your passion and then you threw yourself into it.

[Ed Hollander]

Yep.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Ed Hollander]

Yep.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay. So many in the interior design world wish that it wasn't so easy to call yourself a designer.

[Ed Hollander]

Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

Right, sure. Right. I'm guessing it's not easy to show up and pretend that you're a skilled landscape architect.

[Ed Hollander]

Right. But it's just as easy to be a landscape designer as it is to be an interior designer.

[Dennis Scully]

Tell me more.

[Ed Hollander]

I mean, to be a landscape architect, you've got to either get an undergraduate or a graduate degree, and then you have to work for a few years and then you take the same licensing exam that you would if you were a lawyer or doctor or anybody else. So there are a lot of professional credentials involved with it. On the other hand, you can go to the New York Botanical Garden School of Horticulture, which is a great little school, and you learn some stuff and you're a garden designer. What's the difference between a garden designer and a landscape architect?

[Dennis Scully]

You tell me.

[Ed Hollander]

Well, I mean, a garden designer, I think can lay out. If you give them an area, they can lay out a pretty garden. Landscape architect and even, and I am at a smaller scale than a lot of other people, but we envision space. We do a lot of building as opposed to a lot of plant. Planting is part of what we do, but we're creating space for people to live in and enjoy. Now, most of our work is human scale, so we're dealing. I mean, we have projects that are 10,000 acres, but we're still creating spaces that individual people are going to live in and enjoy for whatever it is doing. I mean, and particularly at Penn, you start out with classes in geology, hydrology, soils, geography. You're learning Science, and you're learning engineering because you've got to understand the way the natural world works. You've got to understand the way the built world works. So you've got to have all of that information. What's taught the least in landscape architecture schools is any kind of plants kids get out of landscape architecture. They don't know a Norway maple from a tulip. And if you're a garden designer, all you know are 17 varieties of tulips and 13 varieties of trees. And learning plants at the botanical gardens and then translating that into landscape architecture has allowed us to be to have a much more sophisticated approach to the way we plant things. Because being a landscape architect, you're dealing with much more complicated systems.

[Dennis Scully]

And coming back to your earlier point about not having a look or not. So as your career evolves, how do you approach it? How do you think of it?

[Ed Hollander]

I mean, so every project starts, I think, with the same basic tenets. Natural ecology, architectural ecology, human ecology. We're doing a 10,000 acre golf resort down in Georgia. Beautiful, natural, long needle pine. Spectacular stuff. But without that deep understanding of the way natural ecosystems work, we could not have restored thousands of acres and brought the natural ecology back to what that wants to be. I mean, the first thing I did when I was out there were clearing all the stuff. It's like, save all this, save every bit of organic matter. Let's compost it, let's use this. We've got all these sandy, barren soils. We're going to take the stuff that you were about to pay millions of dollars to dump, and we're going to use it to create soil with, and then we're going to be able to grow the things that you want to grow. So it was like revelatory. So that's just one example of something that's where you really need to have an innate understanding of the natural ecology. Whether we're working with Tom Klegerman or Peter Pennoyer or any other architect, if our landscapes don't feel like they're intimately connected with their architecture, both are going to suffer. The landscape won't be as good, the architecture won't be as good, But I think it's always given us a passion and a sense of importance for how architecture and landscape relate to each other.

[Dennis Scully]

And when did all of these greats that you've mentioned, the Peter Penoyers, the Annabelle Selldorfs, when did they all start to find you and want to collaborate with you?

[Ed Hollander]

I still don't know why they find us, but I think we have built relationships over time. When we meet architects that we work with, we work together over and over and over again because, A, we have fun doing it, and two, we do a good job together. And I think so. We. And I really tend to enjoy a lot of the people in this field. And for me, I wake up every morning looking forward to go to work.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, as you say, it seems like so many people want to work with you over and over again. Bunny Williams, another one that comes to mind, who claimed she was having a lengthy affair with you at the Kips Bay president's dinner, or your wife was sitting right there.

[Ed Hollander]

I mean, for her to find out that way in public. How embarrassing.

[Dennis Scully]

It was so awkward. I just felt like if I was.

[Ed Hollander]

Gonna have an affair, Bunny would be the one.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and I think it was so sweet that you said that to Wendy. Listen, I mean, of all the people.

[Ed Hollander]

Bunny, she likes Bunny. Okay. You know, friendly.

[Dennis Scully]

So, I mean, yeah. But I wonder. So you're at Kips Bay. You're getting this lifetime achievement award. You're not going anywhere.

[Ed Hollander]

No, Right.

[Dennis Scully]

Lifetime achievement awards sometimes suggest. Oh, Ed, he's getting ready to. Right. Getting old as well. But you have been for some time thinking about the future. You've named partners you've got. Right? So tell me just a little bit about that.

[Ed Hollander]

Once you've been doing this for a while, you start to think about the future. What's going to happen to the firm? Am I going to sell it? Am I just going to close the door? Do I want it to continue? And Jeff Valentino and Steven Eich and Melissa Rivas have all been with us for 15 years and are all. They were already kind of de facto heads of different studios, if you will. And we started to discuss the idea of their buying into the firm and becoming partners and them being the leaders for the future. And the best thing was, is that we all wanted to do it. It's good for them to have me around. I get to learn from them. They get to learn from me. It will be what they make it. It's already what they have made it in the last 10 or 15 years. And it will continue to grow and evolve. One of the things that's difficult to do is to be adaptable. Adaptable and able to transition quickly. You've got to be flexible. And during COVID we all learned how to work via Zoom. Who would have thought? Now Zoom is the most valuable. We could. We use Zoom on this. We have a big flat screen tv. You can. We'll put. We'll do internal design meetings on Zoom because I can design and draw with my finger. But, but being flexible and adaptable and saying, you know, when, when Jeff said he wanted to leave and he had to go to Chicago, he said, great, let's open an office. It's like, can we do that? Why not? So maybe being a little bit fearless, maybe being told you're going to fail your entire life and not failing makes you a little less fearful and lets you say, let's go for it.

[Dennis Scully]

The other thing I wanted to touch on and in thinking about your path to success, people that are thinking about coming into this part of the industry, what advice do you give? What can you share from what you've learned? Both successes, failures.

[Ed Hollander]

Do what you love. If you do what you love, you'll love what you do and you'll be better at it. The only thing I can, the only reason I can think that we've been modestly successful is that we kind of love what we do and we enjoy doing it. And I think that joy comes through in the work and the landscapes that we've developed and all the people that.

[Dennis Scully]

Have come to work for you over the years. What have you found has given you a good indication of what someone is going to be like, the level of success they're going to be able to achieve.

[Ed Hollander]

So I don't know that I'm smart enough to answer that, but I think I've got people that work for me that are smart enough that do. And I think one of the things we've always done and I've always done is to hire people that you think are smart and trust them and listen to them. You know, hiring people, you want to see skill, you want to see talent, you want to see passion, you want to see people that really care. Because if people really care and they're passionate, then they're usually, you know, and then, you know, what skills do they have? But the hardest thing to do is to find people that will fit in to this office, which is not the same as every other office. They have to like dogs because they're usually two to three or four dogs running around in the office.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, if they're, if they're dog loving people, doesn't that usually tell you quite a bit?

[Ed Hollander]

Well, that's how we actually test clients a little bit, because not everybody loves dogs. But if somebody comes in and goes, oh, could you get. Oh, right, yeah, dogs. And we have dogs of all sizes, shapes this and things like that. But having dogs in the office, I think does a Wonderful thing for people's blood pressure. They find it very calming when things seem to really be going off the rails. You know, that was Freddie, who used to be with us. Freddie is in the great beyond right now. But Sidney's got her bed under here, and Bailey has Bruiser, and Melissa has Mary Lou, I think. And we got just lots and lots, lots of dogs. Now, if some of them could design and draw, that would be.

[Dennis Scully]

Oh, those skills would be helpful here, too, right?

[Ed Hollander]

Absolutely. Let's just do autocad, you know.

[Dennis Scully]

Now, you shared at the Kips Bay President's Dinner where you were being honored, you shared the fact that your daughter struggles with autism. And I wonder what dealing with that has taught you over the years, how that has helped you come at the world. Perhaps in a.

[Ed Hollander]

In a different way, love conquers all.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Ed Hollander]

I don't. You know, it's. When you know you love your child and when you see your child struggle, you'll do anything you can to help them conquer their struggles. Now, if I had ADHD and all of that stuff and found a way through it, what can I do to help her do that? The picture right behind you on the wall is. Which went along with a. She works at a place for autistic young adults where they're doing a fundraiser. And I sent that picture of me dressed up as Batman, which.

[Dennis Scully]

You look like such a believable Batman.

[Ed Hollander]

I have to say that. But I have no problem. The photo above is Wendy and I getting ready to have dinner with King Charles. And the photo below is me dressed as Batman on the street of going to the Halloween parade with my daughter Renata.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Ed Hollander]

So that's who I am. And she shows enormous courage to be able to struggle with anything like that and to face society being so anxious and so insecure because you inherently don't understand what's going on around you. There's a lesson in courage there that is inspirational and makes you think, Come on, stop. Stop feeling pity for yourself.

[Dennis Scully]

Right?

[Ed Hollander]

Everyone in the world struggles. Get on with it. Love people, care for people, take care of people. You'll smile all day long.

[Dennis Scully]

And you swear up and down to me that you don't know where this came from in you, that how you are like this.

[Ed Hollander]

Ed, no mother was a raging alcoholic. Father said they're all crazy. Listen, my level of joy is because I'm so lucky.

[Dennis Scully]

And do you think that that's part of why this business has grown and been so successful? You tend to work with someone, and then, of course they want to work with you again because chances are they had a great time and you did great work. Right?

[Ed Hollander]

Sure. How can people not want to have fun?

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Ed Hollander]

And we've had clients that didn't hire us because they didn't think we understood the gravitas of the project.

[Dennis Scully]

Oh, they didn't think you were serious enough.

[Ed Hollander]

Exactly. And I said, you're probably right.

[Dennis Scully]

You're right. Thanks so much.

[Ed Hollander]

We're not curing childhood cancer here. We're creating a beautiful landscape. We're doing all sorts of great stuff.

[Dennis Scully]

And so, darn it, we're going to have some fun while we're doing it.

[Ed Hollander]

We all have a limited number of days here and my theory is to try and find a way. Was it Warren Zevon who said, enjoy every sandwich? There's sense in that.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Ed Hollander]

Art Buchwald, before he died, said if he would have known he was dying, he would have had more eclairs.

[Dennis Scully]

But you're wise to that. You understand that. Yeah.

[Ed Hollander]

I mean, it doesn't mean we don't do fabulous good work. And I'm not a pain in the ass and I don't go out on a site, but this level of joy and respect, whether I'm working with the CEO of Goldman Sachs or a guy in a bulldozer, they get treated the same way. They get treated with an equal level of respect. And most construction workers and most contractors are not used to being treated as an equal by a landscape architect or an architect. They're used to being talked down to and we don't do that. They are as much a part of the team as the clients are. And because of that, they will do anything for us. If I say we're working at 4:30 Sunday morning, I need the whole cruise here. They'll be there because they're part of.

[Dennis Scully]

The team and you make them feel that way.

[Ed Hollander]

Absolutely.

[Dennis Scully]

We're all part of the team. Absolutely. No one's ever.

[Ed Hollander]

And they are. Absolutely. If I have clambakes on the beach, I'll have the clients and I'll have the. They're all part of me and I love them all.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, you're so nice not to talk down to me today.

[Ed Hollander]

I love everybody.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I really appreciate you letting me come. Happy to do it to your office and spend time. I'm so thrilled to talk to you and I mean, congratulations on being with the King and congratulations on the Kips Bay and I mean all of it.

[Ed Hollander]

I mean, it's pretty remarkable. It's been a good year.

[Dennis Scully]

Those listeners out there who are struggling to get good grades.

[Ed Hollander]

Don't worry.

[Dennis Scully]

Don't worry.

[Ed Hollander]

Don't worry. You don't need good grades. You need to follow your passion.

[Dennis Scully]

There you go.

[Ed Hollander]

And when an opportunity arises, take it.

[Dennis Scully]

So will you always say yes?

[Ed Hollander]

No. But I have. I used to joke with. So one of the first projects we did was the 711 in Southampton, a mini store. So any job, any gig we could get, we did. And we still laugh about, you know, now I'm dying, you know, designing $200 million at Southampton 7 11. Hey, I had no problem working on a parking lot in 7 11. So, you know, anytime an opportunity presented us when we were a little firm with three or four people, we took it. And it was scary at times because we had no idea what we were doing.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Ed Hollander]

Yeah. We'd look at each other. How do you just. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. We figured it out.

[Dennis Scully]

We figured it out.

[Ed Hollander]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Ed Hollander]

That's the. That's the second book. We figured it out.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicolaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.