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Business of Home Podcast
From Farrow & Ball to Fermoie: Martin Ephson's surprising journey
00:53:42
Alongside his business partner Tom Helme, Martin Ephson rescued heritage paint maker Farrow & Ball from ruin. Then the pair launched runaway hit fabric brand Fermoie.
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- [00:04]
Dennis Scully
This is business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week, I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Martin Epson. Martin is a driving force behind not one, but two well known names in the design industry. In 1992, he and his business partner, Tom Helm, took over what was then a struggling historical paint company, Farrow and Ball. Together they helped turn it into the powerhouse it is today. But they weren't finished. In 2012, Martin and Tom partnered again to launch Fermoy, a vertically integrated fabric and wall covering brand that has since grown by leaps and bounds. I spoke with Martin about why so many UK companies are coming to America, how the global decline of textile mills created a local opportunity, and why his leadership style boils down to a simple principle. Look after people and they'll look after your business.
- [01:15]
Interviewer/Host
Hi, podcast listeners.
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Dennis Scully
This month, I'm catching up with designer Amber Lewis, a former guest of the show, about her new rug collection for laloy. Today we're talking about the inspiration behind the new designs.
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Interviewer/Host
So, Amber, tell us what this collection is all about.
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Amber Lewis
Wild to say that I don't feel like we've hit the neutral tones.
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Interviewer/Host
What I thought that was the very.
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Amber Lewis
Definition I know of amber interiors. You're right.
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Interviewer/Host
That said, there's still work to be done.
- [01:47]
Amber Lewis
There was more beige to be uncovered.
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Interviewer/Host
All right.
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Amber Lewis
But ironically, a lot of the rugs that we've come out with in past collections all did actually have quite a lot of color on the scheme of when you're looking at them, the Billy, the Georgie, there was pinks and blues, and there was a lot more like reds and greens and a little bit more of a saturation that I actually wanted to move from. And I wanted to make sure it had a little bit more of a neutral, beautiful base layer. So that's what this collection is all about.
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Dennis Scully
And the, and the geometrics and some.
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Interviewer/Host
Of the other patterns that that have come into this, it's all inspired by.
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Amber Lewis
Vintage pieces, almost all of it. So anything that we've done and designed into have been inspired by things that we've seen that are never new. It's always old.
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Interviewer/Host
Okay, so I know Bowie is a big highlight for you. What is that one all about?
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Amber Lewis
So Bowie is quite Moroccan, Right. But it's very much like a contemporary version of a Moroccan inspired rug that is very palette neutral. It's very soft underfoot, it's very durable, and it seems very classic to me. It's really pretty in a bedroom. And I love it in, you know, any kind of space that's going to really need something super basic to be on the floor, but that when you look at it up close, there is a little bit more pattern and nuance to it.
- [03:03]
Dennis Scully
To learn more, visit Laloi rugs.com that's Elliot L O L O I rugs.com and now on with the show.
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Interviewer/Host
Tell us a little bit about your family and where you grew up and there's an exotic story in there.
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Martin Epson
Well, Dennis, I'd like to start at the beginning. It's always a good place. And my father was a diplomat and I happened to be born in London, where he was posted at the time. And we then moved to Cairo in a and a succession of exotic other countries which, looking back, it clearly helped shape my aesthetic. And come 10, I was sent away to one of those traditional UK boarding schools, then went on to Charterhouse where I made great friends, including Tom Helm, who unbeknownst to me, was going to be my business partner for most of my working life. And after graduating, just to sort of complete the timeline, I went back to Ghana to live for a few years, which was the country of my father's birth, where I had only spent two years as a child and enjoyed it very, very much. But I intended to stay for a couple of years. I ended up staying for four. And when I got back to England, I realized that all my great friends had wonderful jobs and were getting going on their careers and I was feeling somewhat left behind. And through a series of coincidences, I ended up being in corporate finance, where I was gainfully employed for six or seven years and being quite entrepreneurial, I had the desire, strong desire, to get involved in business of my own. My great friend Tom asked me to go and have a look at this little company on the southwest in the uk in a county called Dorset, which I duly did. And the background to me going down to have a look at this little firm called Farren Ball Brackets Southern Limited, was that Tom had ended up being or was not had ended up was at that time decorations advisor to the National Trust. And in those days, back in the 80s, they used to still do quite a lot of restoration and rent renovation projects. And he had worked there for many years, initially under the tutelage of David Millenaric, who's one of our finest decorators and had spent many a winter mixing up great big tubs of paint in historic finishes and colors and had been thinking a long time about, you know, maybe a range of historic colors might Be a good idea. And he was on a job in the west country, a private job, and he was redecorating a dining room in a period house and he was trying to get a deep red in dead flat oil without great success. And on one of his visits one of the painters said, well, I think I know where we could get this mixed up for you. And Tom, almost to humor him, said, well, look, I'm down next week, I need X gallons. See what you can do. And the following week, Tom Julie arrived. Lined up on the dining room floor were all these cans of this incredible deep red in dead flat oil. Tom was completely amazed. He'd never heard of this company that could manufacture these things. So he hot footed it to Wimborne in Dorset, which is the market town that Farambor was based in, and had a look around and thought, my goodness, I can't believe there's still a paint maker making all these historical finishes. But the company looks a little bit sort of tired to say the least. I was one of the few people that Tom knew in finance and said, look, I found this company make a lovely product, but I'm very worried about the company so I just don't know if I want to spend any time doing anything with them because I don't know if they're going to be around for much longer. Can you come and have a look? So I went down and had a look and Tom was absolutely right. We ended up in April 1992 acquiring a majority stake in the business and There were only 11 people employed in the business and it was really very small and everything was a priority in terms of reorientating it and setting it on the path to becoming something quite significant.
- [07:48]
Interviewer/Host
Well, so what did the financials look.
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Dennis Scully
Like at the time?
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Interviewer/Host
So when you finally get serious about.
- [07:53]
Martin Epson
Making an investment, in a word, appalling. It would have been easier and cheaper if we hadn't resuscitated the existing business. But we didn't want to lose the business's DNA and to this day it serves the company well and the current variable make a good story of its origins and the timeline. And that was important and it was particularly important to Tom and me. And, you know, the workforce were heroic there they were in battling against all the odds and with a great deal of skill. And we used to do everything, including grinding our own pigments on a wonderful grinding machine called an edge runner, which is pretty much like a stone mill, that one would grind corn and wheat with, you know, really, really something out of our industrial past and they had the skills, it's still there to do that. That's what we wanted to retain. So we ring fenced the recipes and the manufacturing and we basically changed everything else. So we started part time very, very quickly. We were both sucked into it full time and I, at the time, my wife and I and our children were living in London and we sold out and moved in down west to be nearer the business. And we did that within two years of having taken over the company. And the timing was quite turned out to be quite auspicious because it was at that moment in that time that we could see some light at the end of the tunnel and we were reorientating the business to become purely a decorative paint maker. And yes, we came up with a lot of ideas, but generally they were born out of making a virtue, out of necessity in terms of, for instance, we couldn't afford to give the discounts that the major paint manufacturers did to the painters to secure getting the business. We had to appeal to the end consumer and bypass the decorator. We put the paint and the choice of paint and paint color back onto the homeowner's agenda and took it off the builder's agenda, where it had been for several generations. We developed estate emulsion to emulate, which was, I think you call it flat mat in the States, to emulate the paint that it had supplanted after the Second World War war, which was distemper, which had that wonderful dry, chalky look. That was what we were trying to do, but with sort of in a modern guise, which is what we achieved. But to get people to want to use it, we had to make sure that it was the customer that specified it rather than the builder that just bought it. And again, until we came along, people seemed to forget that certainly in the UK you would move into a house and the walls would be magnolia and the woodwork would be gloss white. We revolutionized that and change changed it forever, thank goodness. And we Tom had a great store of colors and ideas through his experience in some of the finest houses in the country. And to do to create a licensing deal with the National Trust was essentially a bit of a no brainer, whereby we could use or create, recreate the colors that were found in some of the National Trust houses. And the National Trust range of paints that have been launched were championed in particular by Min Hogg, who used to be the editor of World of Interiors. And we owe her a huge debt of gratitude because she picked up on us very, very early, did A wonderful feature on the colors. And that got us onto the path of being the product that people wanted to see on their walls. And our timing was also quite fortuitous in that there had been a huge leap in home ownership in the UK and there was this newfound interest in home that had coincided with some political changes that made it possible for a lot of people for the first time to buy their homes. And so that coincided with a series of TV programs where designers would show you how to sort of renovate your home on a budget. And of course, paint became a central feature of that. And so there was an element of fortuitous timing that, you know, we played into. And we were working very hard to make sure that we were the paint that got mentioned in all the, what you call, shelter magazines, the home interest magazines. And we worked hard at making sure that when they were doing home features that they were creating, that we were around ready to supply whatever it is they needed to put on walls. And that served us very well as we sort of grew, grew the business.
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Interviewer/Host
And grew the business. You did so, so remarkably. I mean, as you say, it was an incredibly small team when you, when you first started and over the course of 12 years you had very impressive growth. And how big did the, how big did the company become before you, before you finally sold?
- [13:20]
Martin Epson
Yeah, it took us sort of 14 years from when we bought to when we. The first two years were incredible struggle, but even then we were getting double digit sales and profit growth. We invested back into the business, all the profits. We had no debt. We started off with 11 people, as I said, and 6,000 square foot. And by the time we sold on our manufacturing footprint was about 60,000 square foot. And our total number of employees was in the region of 400. And we would sell in a week or even a few days what we did in our first year. So we took full advantage of the opportunity and we did toy with the idea of adding on product that one needed at that same point of the decorating cycle, be it flooring, carpets or whatever, etc. Etc. But we parked all of those, except for wallpaper. And the wallpaper story was a natural fit for what we were doing. And so we stuck to our core business, I think you call it the financial parlance. We were a pure plate company, didn't deviate from what it is we knew we were able to do and just made sure that every day we did it a little bit better. We were also well before the Internet age, so people sort of forget all of that and One of the reasons, part and parcel of us having to go direct to the consumer is that we didn't have a nationwide network of retail outlets. And so we needed to deliver what you wanted, Dennis, to your house. Everyone said we were absolutely mad, there was no way you could deliver paint to people directly. But we did. And we weren't sure that it was necessarily going to work. And now it seems like, you know, well, of course that's the way you did it. That's how everything gets delivered. But not back then it didn't. And I'll never forget that a few years after we had launched and started, we were beginning to get a little bit of traction. I was at a dinner party and a friend of mine who actually didn't know I was involved with Farenborg, started talking about this incredible paint business she had come across. And it was just fantastic because when they went down to their cottage in the country at the weekends, the paint she had ordered in the week was delivered waiting for her by the door so she could get on with the decorating. And I said, well, that's absolutely marvelous and I'm delighted it's working because actually, actually it's me.
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Interviewer/Host
In fact, I delivered that paint to your house. I remember it well. You have a char.
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Martin Epson
Luckily I wasn't actually making the delivery, but we were pretty much doing everything else at that stage.
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Interviewer/Host
Well, I mean, all of these little things that you did that ended up making such a huge impact. And as you were saying earlier, it was so much of what people seem.
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Dennis Scully
To love about Farrow and Ball is just all the associations that they have.
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Interviewer/Host
With the brand and its history and the colors and the story behind it. And you really saved this, this heritage brand and got it off of life support, as it sounds like it was when you arrived and breathed new life into it.
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Martin Epson
Yeah, I mean, what we were able to demonstrate is that if you're creative enough, you certainly can still manufacture in sort of post industrial societies. And I think there's a lot more of that now than there used to be, which is really exciting. You know, artisan manufacturers, craft manufacturers, even quite large manufacturers who are mining some rich seams in various industries that have got so big that there are niche opportunities beneath them. And also there's a trickle down effect as well, because we made a clear cut policy decision to try and source as locally as we could. Sometimes that geographically was quite a broad net, but generally we were sourcing everything within a few hundred miles of our factory. And only recently I was catching up with one of My suppliers, who I remained very friendly with, who was our can maker. And he related the story how I'd come to him and was talking about what we were going to do and supply and what I'd need to be having supplied. And I'd look around his factory, and I saw this wonderful little pot which contains about 100 milliliters. And the whole idea of a sample pot was actually a bit of a novelty. And in many ways, we certainly invented the sample tin. Sample pot, tin. Either tin existed, but the application didn't. And so I said to him, that is the tin I've been looking for to put all our samples in. Because we suggest it's absolutely critical that people try out the paint in situ before you go and buy a great deal of it to cover a wall. And then maybe he decides it's not quite what you thought it was going to be. And so he said, oh, no, nobody wants those tins anymore. In fact, I'm just about to decommission that whole line and literally. And scrap the machinery. And I said, over my dead body. I'm not buying anything else from you, any other tin size, unless you retain that. Anyway, again, long story short, by the time we sold the business, we were buying over a million of those cans from him a year. And when I saw him the other day, he said, that was the best decision I ever made not to scrap that, because I'm now selling between 3 and 4 million of those pots a year. So when we opened our first showroom in the States in the D and D building in New York, I was absolutely amazed that people would use FedEx in the very same building to get by sample pots and have them delivered to two floors above or three floors below. That's how far distribution had moved on since we had originally launched.
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Interviewer/Host
Well, and that was such a big move for you, too, to come to the D and D building. I don't know how many years into your leadership it was before you came to the States and opened in the D and D. I remember it so well.
- [19:31]
Martin Epson
Well, our first overseas showroom was in France, and that was for a lot of reasons. One, proximity. If we were gonna go and test the water overseas, let's do it somewhere fairly close so we can figure out exactly how this needs to be done. Our first UK showroom wasn't until 1998, which was on the Fulham Road, and from day one, it was a huge success. And that g the confidence to open more. Then we opened in Paris several years later, and a French friend of Mine said, oof, if it doesn't work, promise me you'll shut it down in three months. Because if the Parisians don't like it from the beginning, they will never come. Anyway, they did like it and they did come. And then we started opening up elsewhere. And of course the Holy Grail was the States. And the States has been a graveyard for many a British business. So we were extremely cautious about how to do it and what we were going to do. So we spent time understanding how distribution for high end home products worked in America. We took our time to really research who did what and where. And the upshot of that was a showroom in the D and D building. And again, we were the very first paid people to ever get into that space. And I think the Coen brothers, who were people who owned that building at the time, we had to go and see them in some incredible, incredibly intimidating office on the 70 something floor of some building. And they were extremely skeptical. You know, in those days you had to be interviewed to be able to get a, get a showroom. And I think they thought it was sort of slightly amusing and. But let us give it a go anyway. It worked out extremely well.
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Interviewer/Host
But they said, if you've got the money, we'll let you do it other way.
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Martin Epson
Yeah, we'll take your money, that's fine. We didn't have that much money because we were reinvesting everything we did have back into our growth.
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Interviewer/Host
I wondered because back in those days you had to show them the financials and really go through the interview.
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Martin Epson
Yeah, yeah, it was intimidating process. But anyway, we got there and fortunately it worked out. And then in 2006, having grown the business significantly and had a lot of fun along the way, and we had a lot of people approaching us and at a given point in any cycle, you've got to say, well, you know, maybe we should take some of these approaches seriously, which is what we did do. And it was very nice to have made a sale and then be able to do some other things in our lives and still had a young family. And it was great to be able to spend more time, literally spend more time with them. And then Tom and I had a bit of a reboot.
- [22:18]
Interviewer/Host
Yes, well, so to wrap up Farrow and Ball. So as you say, lots of people began to approach you. Clearly people could see the business was doing well. What made you finally decide to sell to whom you sold to? I know you were very mindful of not wanting the business, business to be broken up or acquired by a big competitor and just molded into what they were doing. Tell me a little bit about that before we move on.
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Martin Epson
Private equity was really getting into its stride in the early 2000s, and that seemed like quite an interesting place to get involved, because, as you say, if we were going to sell out, the natural sort of candidates would have been the large paint makers, who would love the volume to put into their existing operations and loved the opportunity to enhance their margins. But we just thought that would be a disaster because they would generally want to close down Faram Ball and just accommodate the volume in some of their existing plants, and all would be lost. So they weren't even in the reckoning or the running. And we knew that if it was a financial purchaser, well, they would be building on what we had created. And that was important to us. And we set up the deal that a lot of the people who had worked with us, because you're so dependent on all your colleagues, were going to do well out of a sale by us and purchased by others and felt walked away with our heads held high. The business was preserved, the business model was intact, and people who had contributed to our success were going to be rewarded. And that all happened. And I'm glad to say that the business is still thriving, still the market leading, and, as far as I'm aware, doing well.
- [24:16]
Interviewer/Host
Yes, well. And as you've talked about in the past, you'd left plenty of Runway space for that business.
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Martin Epson
It's important to leave gas in the tank.
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Interviewer/Host
Well, you also made the decision not to stick around. So you and Tom both. And it sounded as though you didn't want to see whatever changes they were going to make. Right. Happen.
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Martin Epson
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
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Interviewer/Host
So you might have gotten even more money, Martin, if you had stuck around, if you'd gotten the consultant agreement for a while.
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Martin Epson
But you undoubtedly. But it's not all about the money, and Tom and I just really wanted a bit of time.
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Interviewer/Host
Well, exactly. So you take some time off. And I'm so curious as to when the two of you start to think, all right, it's time for us to try another business.
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Martin Epson
Well, like so many of these things, it was actually quite unplanned. We were having lunch together about. About three years after our sale and talking about all the things that we didn't do. And by that I mean the associated products that I mentioned earlier that you need at the same point in that decorating cycle. And we were thinking, wouldn't it be quite interesting to maybe explore how well we could do in one of those areas? And probably maybe in one glass of wine too many, we thought, yeah, let's scope it out and give it a go. And the chosen medium was fabric because it's a crowded market. But we felt there was a clear cut opportunity there. And so we bought a factory whilst it was totally empty and said, okay, now how are we going to do this?
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Interviewer/Host
Well, so to your point about it being a crowded market, what was the opportunity that you imagined was this there?
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Martin Epson
What's been happening in the textile industry, like so many others, is that there are fewer, fewer mills, which means there's less choice of substrates or materials. The enjoyment of the printed fabric has started to disappear. And we felt that we would like to sort of bring back the enjoyment of the printed fabric. So the enjoyment is in the texture, it's in the tonal differences, it's in the balance. A lot of the subtleties that are being sort of rubbed out by volume production. But we thought that in the mainstream market there was an opportunity to present things in a little bit more exciting way and actually even the physical presentation. And to sort of cut a long story short, we de risked the fabric manufacturing business from our perspective, by essentially taking the far and ball model, fully integrated, vertically integrated business where we control all the elements of the manufacturing and the distribution and the brand and just change the product. Instead of now being paint, it's fabric. And from a customer's perspective, it was critical for us to be able, you know, we've come from a color industry background and to be able to present all our designs in a wide range of colors. And to do that without being bankrupted by inventory, we needed to manufacture, to order. Everybody said, oh, no, there's no way you can print to order, particularly on natural fabrics, because you're going to weigh 16 meters at minimum, just getting the color right. And we love a challenge like that. And we did have some expertise on color technology that we brought that we learned from the paint industry. So the idea for us was to bear down on all the variables, control all those variables, and will get the color printing right.
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Dennis Scully
First time this month, I'm catching up with Amber Lewis about her new rug collection for Le Loy. You were talking earlier about really wanting this to be a collection for everyone.
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Interviewer/Host
And I think an element of that is the perhaps surprising fact that it is available, ready to ship.
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Dennis Scully
Tell us about that aspect of it.
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Amber Lewis
I mean, look, times are rocky, right? We know. And so I really am so appreciative and so pumped to say that they are actually available and in stock, meaning you can get your paws on them quite fast. And I think that that's kind of the dedication that the laloys put into these things is that when they are launching something, they really make sure that it's going to be a value for everybody, including coming out, how they're going to come at it from a certain stock in stock position, which it's not easy to do. Right. I mean, imagine you're juggling the economy and all the ups and downs of what's going on every single day, but then to make sure that your customer is going to get what they need and what they want to continue that, you know, user experience and really customer service is just what they do so well.
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Interviewer/Host
Well, exactly. And I, and I think availability and, and I think inventory levels are important to, to them and they want to be able to show a product and then say, yes, yes, it. It's readily available.
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Amber Lewis
I mean, people will take to the streets if we don't get a bowie in stock. Nine by 12, you know.
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Interviewer/Host
Well, exactly. Particularly after you've, after you've just described it as you.
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Amber Lewis
As you did.
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Interviewer/Host
People are gonna, people are gonna hear this and they're gonna. Yeah, they're gonna want to be able. Exactly.
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Dennis Scully
To learn more, visit laloirugs.com that's l o l l o I rugs.com and now back to the show.
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Interviewer/Host
When you started thinking about the fabric brand, was it always with the thought that the United States was going to be a key and big market for you? So when we were at Farrow and Ball, it was years before you would come to the States. But I'm assuming that everything that you learned about the American market told you that it was, it was a pretty big market if you really want to build a dynamic business. But were you thinking small in the beginning and staying in the UK or were you always thinking about the US.
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Martin Epson
No, not at all. Funnily enough, we weren't thinking particularly big about this business because we'd been there, done that. And one of the reasons for selling is that we both run the business in a very personal style. And it became less exciting when there are many, many people working for you that you don't really know. I was a sort of a firm believer in management by walking about. And I would love to speak to people all over the company at every level, and you're slightly reluctant to do that if you don't know their names. So it was never our intention to build for MOY into another Farrow Ball in terms of scale and reach. But we have been well received. And of course that by implications means, you know, you're going to grow and it's been very satisfying. But we've been growing at a controlled pace and we're still, you know, we're very small. We only employ 50 people and that's a good number. I think I know everybody and that's a good place to be. And just. Sorry to go back to your question. America, United States was always a central part of our plan, plan and for several reasons. And that became even more of a focus when Britain decided back in 2016 to get out of the EU, which.
- [31:44]
Interviewer/Host
Was such a great decision, don't you think? Oh, wait, people have different views.
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Martin Epson
But you know, sadly, it has made as a nation poorer. And you can't just walk away from the biggest trading block in the world and think you're going to be okay. Anyway, that's by the by. And we were active in several, in quite a few European markets. Markets. And when Brexit, which was us leaving the eu, really cut in. We had already lost a huge amount of our European business, which we haven't to this day recovered. And we launched in the States just within a few years of having launched the whole business. And in 2016, when the Brexit vote took place was when we said, look, America's where we're going to have to really focus and, and devote a lot of our energies to. So that's what we've done. And we are represented by a fantastic network of third party showrooms throughout the States. And we think we look after them well and they in turn look after us well as well. We're growing with all of them fairly rapidly in what is a crowded and difficult market. So we're doing something right. Since we originally spoke, Dennis, we've launched our wallpaper, which was actually just last month. They've been incredibly well received and we think that there's going to be reasonable appetite for our papers in the US as well. So we're very excited about what we're already doing and what we plan to.
- [33:24]
Interviewer/Host
Do in the future in selling in America. We talked earlier about how so many British companies, many have tried and failed on different levels to make a go of it here in the US Every British company that I speak to today is focused in a laser beam like fashion on the US because things are challenging in Britain, because the European market has been challenging. I'm wondering what it really takes in your mind to be successful in America.
- [33:56]
Martin Epson
Well, one reason that everybody's keen to sell in America is that you are the biggest and at the high end, the most sophisticated market in the world. World. And you'd be mad if you're producing a quality premium product for the home sector and not wanting to be in America. So, of course, the competition is fierce. Unlike most markets, most homes are decorated by professionals, by decorators. That market is way bigger than any other market market anywhere else on the planet. And you're going to meet everybody else there because everybody recognizes it. But what people often fail to do is recognize that the States is so big that you've got a series of regional markets and you can't go to New York, do a deal and think, great, that's it, we got America sorted. Because. Because they may be great in New York, but they may have absolutely no recognition whatsoever in Colorado or anywhere else. So you've got to sort of approach it in a piecemeal way. And you've got to give each of these regional markets a fair crack of the whip, otherwise they're never going to know about you. And everywhere has their nuances. Different things sell in different parts of the country. Country, which is understandable. You've got different types of light, you've got different types of architecture, you've got just different clients. That takes me back to very many years ago, when Tom and I were first looking at the States and we stopped over in la and Tom rather furtively took the color card out of his pocket when we landed and we looked at our colors in the LA light. And there was a very good reason why the film industry started around there. The light is incredible, but is very different. And thank God the colors worked. So we knew, given time, we had to be there as well. But anyway, so, you know, you've got to go, you've got to look, you've got to see, you've got to understand, and you've got to. If the brand is very, very personal, you've got to build it up from the ground up. It's not something you can delegate.
- [36:23]
Interviewer/Host
Well, I mean, as you were describing earlier, so much of what. What helped you. And we didn't even talk with regards to Farrow and Ball. We didn't even talk. Tom was such a brilliant colorist, as you've described. I don't know who the geniuses were in the paint naming department that were coming up with all of the wonderful and memorable names that I think also played such a huge role in helping you to sell that product.
- [36:50]
Martin Epson
Well, there is a lovely story there, and once again, it goes back to us saying it's all very well having a color, but. But you generally need to have some sort of association. And there we were helped immensely that most of our original colors did come from great houses where we had been doing restoration or where Tom had been doing restoration work. So a good example is Hardwick White. Now, it's a white on a gray scale. The gray that was found in Hardwick House up in the north of England, and it had been blackened and another name of another white by generations of candle burning candles and all the candle black. And so Hardwick White is the white that was found there and was recreated for some restoration somewhere along the way. Some of the more exciting names also had very similar origins, like dead salmon. Now, there never used to be a word for pink back in the day. And there was a painter's bill for, I think, called Kedlestone hall, which is again, another wonderful National Trust house. And on that painter's bill from 1790s, I believe, it said to paint X yards in the color of dead salmon, which was a dirty pink, Dirty pink being pink that was again messed up by candle smoke. And then once you got that sort of thought process going, it was quite easy to extend. And not all of them were particularly historical. Some of them came out of more modern connections. For instance, Mouse's back. Now, Mouse's back is a fantastic grey that looks particularly well on flooring. And that's because it was a grey that was favored by John Fowler and used in almost all his decorative projects for carpet.
- [38:52]
Interviewer/Host
Well, again, there was so much to your point, there was so much British heritage that was captured in that Faro and Ball brand. And I wonder how you thought about that when you were building out for Moy and again, going back to the United States. There's, I don't want to say obsession, because that can sometimes be perceived as a pejorative term. But I mean, there's a heightened interest in British design and British style, and more and more American designers are trying to recreate elements of that. And I want to, if you were mindful of that as you were building out for Moy and how you talk about it and think about it, quite.
- [39:37]
Martin Epson
Difficult to answer very succinctly. I think one of the reasons that Tom and my working relationship has worked is that we share a similar aesthetic. And that aesthetic was born out of our backgrounds and our education. And we both live in England, in the country, the English country house.
- [39:59]
Interviewer/Host
Look, it's just who you are.
- [40:02]
Martin Epson
Way we live, it's not. It's not something we've had to create. So yes, it's considered, but it wasn't necessarily adopted because it's, it came out of, you know, our life, life experience, I guess. But then there is a twist. You know, it could get very stuffy and sort of stultifying and like anything, you know, a little bit repetitive. And I think what we've both had the great privilege of doing and particularly from very early age is extensive travel and experiencing, you know, wonderful countries and exotic souks in North Africa or wherever it may be. So and to be fair, the sort of classic English house, country house look includes a lot of that because Britain had the fantastic sort of naval based empire and they were collecting throughout history from all over the world and a lot of it sort of based from European classical history. So there's a huge sort of wheel at work there.
- [41:12]
Dennis Scully
Well, when you think about, and I.
- [41:15]
Interviewer/Host
Want to come back to some of the complexities of the fabric industry and in the States when I talk to CEOs of fabric houses often we talk about the huge costs around sampling costs and, and the huge cost in supplying wings and setups in all these multi line showrooms. And everyone's trying to figure out a better way to display fabrics and all of that. But there's so many costs that seem to have risen quite dramatically in recent years, particularly again on the sampling side and on the transportation and freight side, all of that. Has that been challenging for you? Have you had to grapple with, with that?
- [41:59]
Martin Epson
It's constantly challenging. And again, I think we're at a little bit of an advantage in that we produce all our own samples, be it for the fabric or be it for the papers. And you adopt certain sort of tricks and techniques. So we're printing a given fabric and you can see that or that we've created a situation whereby a computer will tell you that actually we've only got 100 of these samples left. So at the end of that print run, we print X and number of more meters that we can cut for samples. Of course they still cost money, but it's a relatively cheap way of maintaining your sample stocks. So you've just got to build as many efficiencies into what you do as you possibly can. And as our volumes get bigger, our efficiencies, shipping efficiencies get better. Sending one lampshade to Atlanta is incredibly exciting expensive. Sending 100 lampshades to Atlanta is fairly cost effective. But going back to the kind of farrow and ball or the femoy look, there's a huge Sort of historical reason for some of that sort of attraction in the US and it goes right back to the pre independence days when all the every fashion arrived in America by boat from Europe and the best way in houses to get to and America created its own aesthetic. And we know all of that. But there was still this overlay of the old country, old world's fashion and style. And so how did you get the latest European fashions up on your walls in Connecticut or where may be. Well, of course it was wallpaper. So that tradition now is going back hundreds of years. And so there is an expectation that America produced fantastic wallpaper as well. But there's very much a market for what we have to offer in Europe alongside what you're able to do and what you do for yourself in the States.
- [44:13]
Interviewer/Host
Well, and there's always this impression in the States that wallpaper comes in and out of fashion. And I don't know if it was really that way in the UK it always seemed to be just what people did, people put up wallpaper. And in the States it seemed to be much more cyclical. I don't know what your sense of that is or if you've experienced that.
- [44:34]
Martin Epson
It is cyclical because what we all do we fail to sometimes realize. But we're in the fashion industry and wallpapers have not been that well received in recent years with of this sort of monotone palette that's been so popular for so long, which has been thankfully on the way now for several years and wall papers back and long may it last, but it'll serve out this cycle and then next generation or in a few years time. Everyone said I'm absolutely sick of all that pattern. I'm going back to my plain walls or whatever it may be. So I think we're in a moment where color and pattern is back, which is a good thing.
- [45:22]
Interviewer/Host
Well, it's interesting. I've been having a lot of conversations about that monotone look and the beige ification as we sometimes refer to it here in the US and Bobby McAlpin, a world renowned architect, was telling me recently when I was in Atlanta actually that he felt that that was people sort of medicating themselves a little bit and their way of dealing with all of stress and strain that had been going on was to create these very neutral and calming environments. And that perhaps we are coming out of that to your point, and feeling more colorful or wanting bolder patterns around us. And I don't know what that says about where we are and where we're.
- [46:10]
Martin Epson
Going well, there's always a place for the Zen zone, but you don't necessarily have to live in it. Towards. And I think people have got bored with that sort of monotone look, and it's easy to get bored with it. And there have been some fantastic sort of maximalist design projects that have got quite a lot of exposure. And people say, yeah, I like a bit of that. It's time for us all to have a bit of a change.
- [46:41]
Interviewer/Host
I never know if one can really make a connection to the economic times that we were in, that people get more maximalist or people get bolder with patterns when the financial markets are doing well or when they're feeling more optimistic about things. Financial markets are at all time highs here in the States and around the world in many markets. And so I don't know if there is that connection, but here we are.
- [47:07]
Martin Epson
Well, they say skirts rise with the economic temperature, don't they? And I think people generally acknowledge, whether you're doing well out of it or badly out of it, that we. We're living in very anxious times politically and economically. And I think home really is refuge, isn't it? And that whole thing started in Covid where people really valued home. And I think quite a lot of businesses in our sector did extremely well through Covid. As people said, I can't live with these curtains for a minute longer or whatever it might be. I mean, looked at them day in, day out for months on, and I think people really appreciated home during the COVID lockdowns, et cetera. And I think that's still the case. And then the convenience of everything you can get at home, you know, you don't need to go to a restaurant now. I think this. In some ways this is rather sad, but you can have fantastic meals delivered to you at home. And all these businesses that have grown exponentially doing just that. And so it goes on. Home has become really the focus for most people's lives in a way that it hasn't been for a very long time.
- [48:23]
Interviewer/Host
I wonder what you make of this time. I wonder if the tariffs have been terribly challenging for you or what's your sense of how the American market is doing overall?
- [48:35]
Martin Epson
Well, look, we're all facing a lot of headwinds, regardless of the sector you're in. And for us, home has been very challenging. Tariffs are not helpful. Increased freight costs are not helpful. Increased raw materials costs, not helpful. You've just got to navigate your way through as best you can. And I think we're in a position now that we're building in efficient. We're more focused than ever on efficiencies and a lot of those come on the back of trying to be as sustainable as possible. If we can halve our energy usage. Well, that's, we are a manufacturer, you know, any manufacturing is relatively energy intensive. So you know, that's great and we have been able to do it. And we've also migrated just on that point, a bit of a segue, but we've migrated to entirely renewable energy sources. But you know, you just have to keep on building in as many efficiencies you can to mitigate all the, all the headwinds. And I think we're just now starting to talk about next year's pricing of it and we're actually going to go into 2026 without any price increases at all.
- [49:54]
Interviewer/Host
Is that right? So you've decided to not increase prices with everything going on?
- [49:59]
Martin Epson
Everything's already gone up 10% in the States for us and with a lot of people considerably more. How much more can the consumer take at the moment? And we've all got to share the pain.
- [50:12]
Interviewer/Host
Well, it's a great point because you can't talk to any design without them telling you how many price increases they've gotten from all their various vendors. And I just came back from the High Point furniture market and how much does it cost was very much on the minds of everybody there and everyone honestly is trying to figure that out. Having had the success that you did with Farrow and Ball and Fermoy seems to be doing well. Is there a characteristic or is there an approach to your leadership that you think has served you well, that others could learn from and emulate as they think about running their own business?
- [50:55]
Martin Epson
Yeah, I think so. I think communication and by that I mean making sure that people who work with you share the vision and understand the goal. And to do that you need to keep, keep the goals accessible and reasonable. So you know, I as an individual and goal orientated, so it's quite easy to say, you know, it would be quite easy to say hey guys, we're all going on holiday. That's actually pretty meaningless. What you need to say is tomorrow at 6am Meet me in the lobby with clothes for some hot weather because we're taking a flight and we're to going, going to X, Y and Z. That's literally taking people with you. Oh yeah, that's great. I know where I've got to be when, how, what equipment. It sounds ridiculously simplistic, but it's amazing how Often people in organizations don't actually have a clue what they're doing and why, and that must be so disheartening. We want people to get out of bed in the morning, delighted to get in, delighted to make their contributions. Contribution. And their contribution is recognized and, and.
- [52:09]
Interviewer/Host
To have a clear understanding of, of what's expected of them and what you're.
- [52:12]
Martin Epson
Yeah, you look after people and people will look after your business.
- [52:15]
Dennis Scully
Right.
- [52:16]
Martin Epson
And all my rather sort of, you know, pathetic words of wisdom are really quite basic, but, you know, they've served me well and served my business well and, and, and hopefully, you know, we've given a lot of people decent jobs and career paths that they've enjoyed.
- [52:33]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, well, and what a wonderful thing to be able to create jobs, as you say, and to give people a nice place to come to, which I think is a gift. Martin, I'm so thrilled to get to talk with you and I'm grateful for you making the time.
- [52:48]
Martin Epson
Well, I'm more than delighted to have been invited and the pleasure, I have to say, it's all mine.
- [52:56]
Dennis Scully
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.