Hickory Chair is betting on color

Summary

Business of Home Podcast: "Hickory Chair is Betting on Color"

Release Date: November 11, 2024
Host: Dennis Scully
Guest: Federico Contiggiani, President of Hickory Chair

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully engages in a compelling conversation with Federico Contiggiani, the President of Hickory Chair. With a legacy spanning over a century, Hickory Chair has remained steadfast in its commitment to craftsmanship and customization, all while navigating the evolving landscape of the interior design industry.

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High Point Market Reflections

The episode opens with Federico reflecting on the recent High Point Market, a pivotal event in the home industry calendar. Despite mixed outcomes for many participants, Federico shares a positive outlook for Hickory Chair's performance.

Federico Contiggiani [02:51]: "Honestly, Dennis, it felt great. We got incredibly good feedback from our designers and customers and accounts."

When asked about Hickory Chair's objectives at High Point, Federico emphasizes long-term relationships over immediate sales.

Federico Contiggiani [03:18]: "We don't write a ton of business during market. That's not the expectation. We work with designers... projects that will translate into business in months or years from today."

Despite broader market hesitations about investing in newness, Hickory Chair introduced its largest array of new products since 1999, showcasing a bold strategy that bucks industry trends.

Federico Contiggiani [03:57]: "We just wanted to come in hot and show as much product as possible."

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A Century-Old Legacy

Federico delves into the rich history of Hickory Chair, highlighting its resilience through global challenges and its unwavering manufacturing presence in North Carolina.

Federico Contiggiani [05:57]: "Hickory Chair was founded in 1911... There are not a lot of manufacturers... that have been around that long."

From its inception with a single dining chair, Hickory Chair expanded its product line while maintaining its North Carolina roots. Federico proudly notes the company's unique position as one of the last manufacturers producing both upholstery and case goods under one roof, ensuring unparalleled customization and supply chain control.

Federico Contiggiani [09:02]: "We are proudly American made. We are proudly handmade."

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Navigating Ownership and Challenges

Discussing the company's ownership under RHF and the Shufford family, Federico recounts the tumultuous period marked by bankruptcies and operational challenges. The transition to his leadership involved overhauling the operating system and managing unprecedented order volumes during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Federico Contiggiani [12:52]: "We operate in a very unique way. We had an operating system transition from the previous owners... Covid was an incredible period in our industry."

Despite these hurdles, Federico emphasizes the importance of customization and maintaining strong relationships with designers, which now constitute 75% of their business.

Federico Contiggiani [15:09]: "It's a combination of being customizable but having a strong foundation to start from."

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Company Culture and Brand Differentiation

Federico shares insights into Hickory Chair's company culture, likening the RHF family of brands to siblings who collaborate to strengthen the collective.

Federico Contiggiani [23:31]: "It's a family of brands, right. So we need to consider ourselves as siblings... whenever someone from outside of the family joins the conversation, the siblings team up."

When distinguishing Hickory Chair from other RHF brands like Century Furniture, Federico highlights their European-inspired design language and more limited product offerings, catering to a feminine and sophisticated aesthetic.

Federico Contiggiani [20:47]: "Our collections are designed with an eye to more European scale and proportion, slightly more feminine style."

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Embracing Color and Design Trends

A significant focus of the discussion centers on Hickory Chair's strategic emphasis on color. Federico explains how customer-owned material (COM) orders provide real-time insights into color preferences, enabling the company to anticipate and set trends.

Federico Contiggiani [25:05]: "We cut a little two by two piece of fabric from every com order... we build this rainbow of colors, basically, and we can see where the trends go."

He draws parallels between the furniture and fashion industries, acknowledging that while they aren't directly defined by fashion, inspiration undeniably flows between the two.

Federico Contiggiani [27:14]: "We are not a fashion industry, but we are an industry that lives in fashion."

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Branding Challenges and Market Positioning

Federico candidly discusses the complexities of building a recognizable furniture brand amidst tight margins and fierce competition. He underscores the difficulty in achieving brand loyalty comparable to luxury fashion items, emphasizing the importance of quality and customer relationships.

Federico Contiggiani [31:03]: "We are not fashion because we don't have the same margins they have... It's very hard."

Addressing the challenge of maintaining consistent brand representation across various showrooms, Federico expresses a desire for higher visual standards to bolster customer trust and brand integrity.

Federico Contiggiani [33:56]: "Having the best possible foot forward will only help customers to buy into it."

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Quality vs. Aesthetics: The Hickory Chair Standard

A hallmark of Hickory Chair is their commitment to exceptional quality, exemplified by their eight-way hand-tied spring suspension system—a feature they steadfastly uphold as a signature of craftsmanship.

Federico Contiggiani [38:06]: "It's the best you can find. It's been around for centuries and it's never been replaced by a better way of doing it."

This dedication to quality poses challenges in maintaining competitive margins but reinforces their brand's reputation for durability and luxury.

Federico Contiggiani [39:06]: "We put a lot of time and effort in what we build and inevitably we have to be competitive on the market."

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Adapting to Industry Trends and Technology

Federico addresses the role of technology in the furniture industry, expressing cautious optimism about tools like AI while reaffirming the importance of tactile experiences in customization.

Federico Contiggiani [46:43]: "We are using AI. We are starting to use AI in the office and we are starting to understand how that's going to affect our industry... it's not easy to represent something that is so configurable and so customizable in every possible way."

He underscores that, despite technological advancements, the essence of Hickory Chair remains rooted in personal relationships and craftsmanship.

Federico Contiggiani [48:53]: "We don't sell online our products... It's still a business based on relationships."

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Looking Ahead: Growth and Sustainability

With a positive trajectory heading into 2025, Federico outlines strategic priorities to scale manufacturing capacity and sustain growth, learned from past challenges like COVID-19-induced order surges.

Federico Contiggiani [58:41]: "We have learned a lesson that we don't want to force our customer to wait months, sometimes years for our products. That's not sustainable."

He credits Hickory Chair's success to consistent quality, appealing new introductions, and strong industry partnerships.

Federico Contiggiani [60:18]: "Maintaining a consistency in delivering high-quality product, delivering new introductions that are appealing... is what we're gonna keep doing moving forward."

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Personal Insights and Passions

Beyond business, Federico shares his personal passions for art, fashion, and design—elements that naturally align with his role in the furniture industry. His Italian heritage plays a significant role in his appreciation for beauty and aesthetics.

Federico Contiggiani [57:20]: "Growing up surrounded by beauty unconsciously, I feel helps recognizing it when you see it."

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Conclusion

Federico Contiggiani's leadership at Hickory Chair exemplifies a harmonious blend of tradition and innovation. His focus on color, customization, and uncompromising quality positions Hickory Chair to thrive in an ever-evolving market. As the company prepares for a robust 2025, their commitment to craftsmanship and designer relationships remains unwavering, promising continued excellence in the interior design community.

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Notable Quotes:

• Federico Contiggiani [03:57]: "We just wanted to come in hot and show as much product as possible."

• Federico Contiggiani [09:02]: "We are proudly American made. We are proudly handmade."

• Federico Contiggiani [25:05]: "We cut a little two by two piece of fabric from every com order... we build this rainbow of colors..."

• Federico Contiggiani [38:06]: "It's the best you can find. It's been around for centuries and it's never been replaced by a better way of doing it."

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This comprehensive discussion offers valuable insights into Hickory Chair's strategies, challenges, and vision, providing listeners with a deep understanding of the company's pivotal role in the interior design industry.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Federico Contiggiani, the president of Hickory chair. Started over 100 years ago with a single product, Hickory Chair has grown considerably over the decades and changed hands several times, but it never left North Carolina out of a single facility. The company produces both upholstery and case goods using the same techniques it has for generations. I spoke with Federico about the challenges.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Of building a brand name and home.

[Dennis Scully]

Why design both is and isn't like fashion, and why no matter what technology brings, furniture will always be a trust business. This podcast is sponsored by Liloi, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. This fall at High Point, Liloi introduced a breadth of new collections for all styles, all aesthetics and all price points. Visit liloirugs.com to see what's new and sign up for a trade account that's L o l o I rugs.com and follow them on Instagram and TikTok loloyrugs. This podcast is also sponsored by Annie Selkie. Rooms may come in different shapes and sizes, but that doesn't mean you have to settle for a rug with a so so fit. Annie Selkie, known for their best in class, Dash and Albert rugs offer more than 140 custom sized rugs to suit not only any space but also every style from farmhouse to coastal and everything in between. Whether you opt for hand tufted wool, durable indoor, outdoor or natural jute, Annie Selke's custom size rugs will always give you a flawless fit down to the inch. To learn more, visit aniselkie.com that's a.

[Federico Contiggiani]

N n I e s e l.

[Dennis Scully]

K e dot com and now on with the show.

[Federico Contiggiani]

As you and I were just recently discussing, you are a High Point veteran and since we're just coming off of High Point Market, we did a quick recap show where we talked about our impressions of market and we've heard from some people that some people did better than they were thinking they might. And other people, right, were a little disappointed maybe. But how did it, how did it feel for you?

[Unknown]

Honestly, Dennis, it felt great. We got incredibly good feedbacks from our designers and customers and accounts.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Tell me what Highpoint means for you. Are you hoping to really write a bunch of business during Highpoint? Are you more concerned with people coming and seeing the new collections and networking and kind of getting people excited Tell me what your hopes and expectations are.

[Unknown]

We don't write a ton of business during market. That's not the expectation. We work with designers. We know that designers may be working on projects that will translate into business in months or years from today, and that's totally fine.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Were you thinking this was a lot of newness for you relative to past markets, or how were you thinking? Because one of the things that we talked about a lot was people weren't feeling like this particular fall market was a time to spend a lot of money on newness.

[Unknown]

And this might have been the key. I don't know. We actually had the largest amount of new introductions since 1999.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Bucking the trend, going against it.

[Unknown]

You know what? You know what my plan is? 2025 knocking on wood should be a good year for our industry. Let's slingshot into that with as much product as possible. We are not a, you know, we are not one of those companies that people expect to come up with a ton of new products. But nonetheless, I just wanted to come in hot and show as much product.

[Federico Contiggiani]

As possible within that context. What we tend to see a lot of when we come to High Point. So Suzanne Kastler obviously had her big Bruges introductions and all of that that everyone was buzzing about. And then you've got various other very significant collaborations. David Phoenix and Rick Bo and others. Tell me what percentage of the overall product for Hickory Chair that represents, because an outsider might think that's the majority of what you make, but that's not really the case.

[Unknown]

And you're absolutely right, it's not the case. We do have phenomenal partners, and I believe we have a beautiful mix of designs and tastes, and even design languages, if you will, between these five players. But to your point, there is a lot of history we carry on our shoulder. 113 years of Hickory Chair legacy products. And a lot of the products that we still sell today come from the archives, come from the past 20, 30, 40 years of product development, which is an invaluable resource for us.

[Federico Contiggiani]

That's a perfect segue into telling us the history of Hickory Chair. And that's interesting that you still lean on so many of the classic products that have been in the line for such a long time. So tell us the history.

[Unknown]

Hickory Chair was founded in 1911, so 113 years ago. To give you some perspective. There are not a lot of manufacturers, not only in the US but in the world that have been around that long. It's also a manufacturer that has survived two world wars, the Great Depression, obviously 2008 depression, everything that happened more recently. It's a very resilient brand. It's a very resilient company. We started with one product. That's why it's called Hickory Chair. We used to make one dining chair and that was all. That was all the company was making. And that's how we started 1911. Then eventually, of course, it developed and added more products over the decades. But it's incredible to think that that's what we started with. We were probably the first company to start a license collection. We call it the Dorothy Robinson collection in 1931. In 1941, we followed with the James Reaver Collection. We still sell items from that collection.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Really?

[Unknown]

That tells you how.

[Federico Contiggiani]

That's great design, Floyd.

[Unknown]

That's longevity. That's a great investment. So we kind of expanded over the decades and reinvented ourselves so many times. And of course, in the past two decades we really focused on the designers and we lean heavily on them and we kind of build the strategy around that distribution channel.

[Federico Contiggiani]

And do I understand that Hickory Chair is still produced in the same facility that you had back in 1911?

[Unknown]

That is correct. Obviously the facility expanded and grew since.

[Federico Contiggiani]

The one chair was the only product.

[Unknown]

I imagine went through a fire, went through every sort of natural disasters. But eventually we are still in the same location where the company was founded in 1911. We employ about 450 people here in Hickory, North Carolina. And we are uniquely one of the, probably, I think the last, the only company I can think of that manufactures both upholstery and case goods under the same roof. That allows us a lot of flexibility in customization and being able to really control the supply chain in a unique way. So we are proudly American made. We are proudly handmade. We do have, of course, some items that we source from all over the world, but it's a very small percentage of our offering. But it's mostly product that we can't make. It's product that has stone and metal and alabaster, onyx, things that obviously are not native of North Carolina.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Well, that's interesting because often when we talk to companies, the case goods is largely what went overseas, right?

[Unknown]

Absolutely.

[Federico Contiggiani]

As we all know. And so that wasn't the case for your company. Why is that?

[Unknown]

It was a strategic decision. Manufacturing case goods is very challenging. It's a very expensive process to make it simple. It's very hard to make money when you manufacture case goods. It is a labor intensive process. Of course the material is expensive. Even just Operating the factory on the case, goods factory on the case, good side, is very challenging. Of course, today there are companies that manufacture fantastic products overseas. Could be Vietnam, Philippines, you name it. But we still have control of what we make. We can still customize what we make. We can still reach the level of detail that otherwise we wouldn't be able to provide to our customers. And I feel that makes the difference.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Interesting. You mentioned that the company has weathered all of these various economic crises and the world wars. I don't know if ironic is the right word, but poignantly the biggest challenge, it seems like wasn't everything going overseas as much as it was the roll up of the FBI brands, the furniture brands international, all the brilliant minds that brought all these brands together.

[Unknown]

And eventually to an end.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Exactly. And eventually to an end and to bankruptcies and a lot of challenges and.

[Unknown]

That was a sad time. We are currently owned by rhf. That is the company that controls the group of brands that includes Century and Hank Arcamore and Highland House and, and so on. And honestly, we need to be thankful for the Schufer family and their commitment to this company, to this business. We went through as a company creature, went through two bankruptcies in less than 10 years. And that's tough. It's not an easy thing for our customers. It's not an easy thing for the people here in Hickory. Being part of a family owned group of brands is a luxury nowadays and especially in the good ends of the Shufford family. I think this is the perfect home for us.

[Federico Contiggiani]

It's interesting you mentioned RHF and the Shufford family and Alex. So Alex had your job for a time when they first acquired.

[Unknown]

You did Exactly.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Acquired Hickory Chair. And as I recall, he was pretty eager to hand that job off.

[Unknown]

I wonder why this is really a dream.

[Federico Contiggiani]

I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if he spoke about it as romantically as you seem to, but. No, but I mean, he recognized obviously the value of it and the great history, but he was eager to find his replacement in you. And what I'm curious about is, as you just described, two bankruptcies in 10 years. There was a lot of disruption, there was a lot of turnover and all of the challenges that one might imagine go along with that. I'm wondering when he finally did hand the position over to you. Lucky you.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

[Federico Contiggiani]

I wonder, what were some of the top orders of the day? What were some of the early priorities for you?

[Unknown]

We operate in a very unique way. We had an operating system transition from the previous owners. So we implemented SAP and that was a tough time. That's when Alex was here. So I'm imagining that that was part of the reasons why he wasn't so happy. But that was extremely challenging time. Of course, Covid was incredible period in our industry. We found ourselves flooded with orders. Our lead time expanded to something that was not manageable. So there was a lot of things to deal with and a lot of upset customers and a lot of issues internally to handle. Acquiring a new company is always a challenge again, so it was just a combination of factors that made it difficult. But I do believe that part of the reason this transition was probably more difficult than expected was the nature of the business itself. We provide an incredible amount of products. We customize for our customers. We do a high percentage of Com. So working with designers is not easy. Designers are demanding and we need to make sure that we respond accordingly. So it was a bit of a learning curve. Obviously, RHF has always worked with designers, and Century and Highland House specifically are designer oriented brands, but not to the degree where Hickory Chair was.

[Federico Contiggiani]

So Hickory Chair even more focused on designers. You feel okay?

[Unknown]

Yes, yes. It represents 75% of our business, and.

[Federico Contiggiani]

The other 25 is retail business.

[Unknown]

It's a combination of retail and a bit of a contract and international business.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Interesting. Okay, okay. And a lot of. I mean, as you say, so a lot of customers own materials, a lot of custom. And often, I mean, often the question comes up, boy, that is a really tough model with doing so much custom versus some of the big competitors that just have inventory.

[Unknown]

It is. It is challenging, but standardizing is not the answer. It's not for us. And I don't think it is the answer for our customers. It's being able to provide a unique meal. It's something that not every restaurant can can do. We obviously have a menu, but our menu has a lot of variables. And that allows you to have a very unique and tailored experience. And I think that's our strength.

[Federico Contiggiani]

So you think that's the big. Because I was curious to hear your thoughts about what Hickory Chair's big differentiator is. I mean, is that what you really feel, that it's so customizable?

[Unknown]

It's definitely part of it. I think the customizable component is in high demand with our customers. Of course, we need to have our own identity. And I feel that customers will come to us if they can see themselves reflected in our brand. If we can represent their style, if we can represent their taste, they'll come Back to make sure they fine tune our products the way they want it for their specific project. It's a combination of being customizable but having a strong foundation to start from.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Tell me a little bit about where you were before all of this and how you first got to America and what your background was and how you think about this.

[Unknown]

I came to America 14 years ago in October 2010 working for an Italian company. I had an Italian company that brought me here. Eventually I made my way to Century Furniture a little less than seven years ago. And that's where eventually I transitioned and made my way to Hickory Chair specifically. I'm still managing the contract at International Business for all of the RHF brands. We like to keep ourselves busy.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Yeah, that sounds like a big job in and of itself.

[Unknown]

But it's something I love. I think it gives me visibility to what happens around the world and I think that keeps us on our toes. And today's industry, I think it's the key to be successful. But before Hickory Chair, I was specifically managing Maitland Smith. So a brand that is completely imported, so that's totally manufactured overseas. And here we go. We are in the exact opposite scenario in an American made company. But I have a fun story of how I met Alex Shuford.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Oh, please.

[Unknown]

Of all places. I was working in Vietnam for a company that manufactures in Vietnam. And as you, I'm sure you know, you don't drive in Ho Chi Minh City. It's something that you just don't do. Nobody wants to get into that kind of situation. But everybody has a driver. And I had a driver picking me up every morning at 7:30 to go to the factory. One morning my driver calls me and he says, hey, I just picked up a customer from the airport. Do you mind to share your ride with them? I said, no, absolutely no. They were coming. This customer was coming to the factory to visit it, to tour the factory. And sure enough, there was Alex Shuford sitting in the back.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Did you know who that was at the time?

[Unknown]

Oh, yes. I turned around, I was like, oh, hi. And we actually have never met before and that was hilarious. But we spent two hours just talking. But that's how we got to connect. I think it was nine years ago now.

[Federico Contiggiani]

And how long after that did you find yourself working with Alex?

[Unknown]

Two years later.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Two years later, yes. And how did that happen?

[Unknown]

Well, after our initial conversation and getting to know each other, I was ready for a change. And Alex, I believe was ready for, for an addition to his team specifically for contract and international. And that's how I started working with Century and with the RHF family of brands. And then eventually I made my way.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Here and to your point about distinguishing the brands. So here you worked for Century for a time. Right. Which is a brand a lot of designers know. And I'm always curious. Okay, tell me what the big difference is between Hickory Chair and Century.

[Unknown]

That is a great question. There is a lot of overlapping. There is no doubt we have a lot of products that can be specify for the same project across all of our brands. But to your point, there are some differences in Century furniture. You can find a wider spectrum of products that you can at Hickory Chair. Our offering is more limited compared to what Century has. I want to say that our collections are designed with an eye to more European scale and proportion, slightly more feminine style. I'm thinking now of Suzanne Catherine, for example. That's that French inspiration and the more feminine kind of look that is very unique to Hickory Chair. So we have a few things that I feel like makes us who we are and differentiate from everybody else.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you that whether you have a tiny bedroom or a grand hallway, Aniselkie has more than 140 rug designs that can be custom sized for the perfect fit with the same quality and craftsmanship you've come to expect from Annie Selke. The collection includes exclusive hand woven styles from celebrated collaborators Bunny Williams and Marie Flanagan. Large swatches are available as well as in house experts to help you place your order. The best part, most custom sized rugs ship in just two to three weeks. Visit anniecelkie.com to learn more.

[Federico Contiggiani]

That's Ann I E S E L K E.

[Dennis Scully]

And now back to the show.

[Federico Contiggiani]

How does the company culture? I'm curious. So I mean, you mentioned all these other brands that are part of the RHF family. And I wonder what's the competitive environment like there? And don't worry that Alex might be listening to this. No, no, he doesn't. No, I'm sure he doesn't listen to this.

[Unknown]

He would never know. Well, I'm just going to do the smartest thing I can think of and that's to quote what he said.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Okay, okay.

[Unknown]

And quote the boss. And I think it's also the best way to put it. It's a family of brands, right. So we need to consider ourselves as siblings. And what do siblings do? They fight all the time. And that's okay. But the real key, the real difference is that whenever someone from outside of the family Joins the conversation. The siblings team up and that's when we become stronger. We need to compete within the family of brands.

[Federico Contiggiani]

There is no doubt when Alex did give you the position and you talked earlier about COVID and what a crazy time all of that was. But I'm wondering what felt to you.

[Dennis Scully]

As the biggest priority?

[Federico Contiggiani]

Because you strike me as somebody who is. Who's very visually focused, very design focused. I got the sense that you wanted that showroom to feel very different and look different, and so I got the sense that that was a big priority for you. But you tell me.

[Unknown]

You're absolutely right. I started with colors. Hickory chair used to show in every possible shade of white. And I mean, I see it, I understand the reason. You know, it's beautiful, it's classic, it's timeless, you know, and you can really see the silhouette of every single piece. I get it. But it got.

[Federico Contiggiani]

But enough. You were enough of that.

[Unknown]

Exactly. I mean, it just. It was a little bit too much. And as I mentioned earlier, we do a lot of com. 47% of our business is actually customer owned material. So it's a lot. But that gives us visibility to what our customers like and want and what we do. We cut a little two by two piece of fabric from every com order we receive, and that goes straight to our merchandising team and then eventually on a board and we build this rainbow of colors, basically, and we can see where the trends go. We see where projects go. Color wise, the challenge is that that tells us what happens. Now. That's a picture of the current state of the industry. It doesn't tell us what's going to happen next. And that's our challenge. We need to try to. To understand and kind of look into this crystal ball and see what the next color trend will be. And that's what we try to do every six months.

[Federico Contiggiani]

What else do you look at to try and predict the future?

[Unknown]

Well, easy answer would be fashion. Right? We want to look at fashion and the trends. Fashion trends and whatnot. I think our industry moves at a different pace from fashion. We are now seasonal. We are looking for something that can be trendy today and beautiful tomorrow. It's not necessarily what we look at, but we try to get inspiration from all sorts of industries. It could be jewelry. It could be obviously fashion. It could be even automotive. We look at anything that happens in the world that has to do with beauty, and we try to translate that into shapes and colors. And that's how we get into product development.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Well, it's Interesting, because to the point about the fashion industry and what we can learn. So I spoke to the CEO of Room and Board. He said, dennis, this is not a fashion industry. We shouldn't try to be like a fashion industry. Right? But then you talk to Alex Bernhardt and he says, oh, my God, of course this is a fashion industry. And it's so important that we keep up with what's happening in fashion. I mean, because we show twice a year at High Point, right? So, I mean, in one sense, we're showing in the spring, we're showing in the fall. That feels fashionable.

[Unknown]

Let me give you a twist to this. I think both are correct. I believe we are not a fashion industry, but we are an industry that lives in fashion. But I don't think we define fashion. I don't think that fashion defines us whenever you have to do with creative people. And that's, you know, I think that who designers are, interior designers are creative people. Colors, shapes. That's how we. That's how they communicate. That's how they express their own style. And inevitably, we will always go back to fashion one way or another or another.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Well, I mean, you seem very fashionable. So you and I had dinner recently in the High Point, and you showed up wearing a fabulous velvet jacket of a lovely pale pink color, coral perhaps, if I recall, and some. Right. Some striking Gucci shoes on your feet. And I mean, you were looking pretty fashionable and I would say at a different level than your average High Point furniture fellow. So, I mean, I get the sense that fashion is a big part of how you see the world.

[Unknown]

I can't help it, Dennis. I think it's. To me, it's a way to respect my job and respect the people I talk to. I want to look my best, and that's a way it's challenging because it's not a good starting point. So I have to really put effort in dressing up. But I just want to make sure that I show respect to the people I talk to and the people I meet at market. At the same time, I think we are ambassadors of our brands, and I think if I want to communicate at a luxury level, I have to present myself in that way. At least. I have to try. I have to make an effort. It's part of the experience. I think walking into a showroom in High Point is not just the colors on the wall or the wallpaper or the rugs or the fabrics we use. It's how you are. You are welcomed in the building. It's how you are treated. And how you are fed and what kind of hospitality you find. And every single point of interaction becomes a memory connected to your brand.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Stay with me on this branding conversation, because recently we were having a passionate conversation about branding and the struggle. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I mean, the struggle for furniture companies often is not necessarily having the margins to invest heavily in what it would take to really build a brand. Tell me your thinking on that.

[Unknown]

It's part of, again, it's part of why we are not fashion. We are not fashion because we don't have the same margins they have. I feel we put a lot of quality in our products, and we have to compete in a very competitive market. In order to do that, we have to be careful with our price point. And that's just natural. It's just part of the industry. I always say that at the end of the day, we sit, we sleep, we talk, we laugh, we leave, and we die on a piece of furniture. And the majority of people cannot name five brands. They can't. It's very hard. And I get it. We don't advertise as much as other people do. Other industries do. We are not something that necessarily defines a status symbol, so people don't brag about it. Hey, look at this. Hickory chair sofa. As much as they would do with a goyard bag. That's part of our job, I think, is to make sure that our customers understand how much value and how much refinement goes in every single piece of furniture we make.

[Federico Contiggiani]

And you have the additional challenge of not being in control of the majority of the spaces where your furniture is being presented around the country, which I'm sure drives you crazy.

[Unknown]

That is indeed the truth. But it's part of the game and it's understandable. Some fashion brands have come to the. To the interior design world. Most recent, I think, is Dolce Gabbana. And they have a very strict standard and guideline for the people showing the accounts, showing their products. As I mentioned earlier, I mean, we don't do a lot of retail, so it doesn't affect us as badly as it probably does with other brands. But our galleries around the country don't always reflect our standards. It's just part of the game.

[Federico Contiggiani]

But the message to some of them is, let's step it up a little bit here because some of your visual standards have slipped.

[Unknown]

I think it wouldn't hurt. I think having the best possible foot forward will only help customers to buy into it.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Well, interestingly, Federico and I want to hear your thoughts about this. So unbeknownst to you, you were somewhat sitting on my shoulder recently when I was talking to the international director from Roche Beaubois. Okay, okay. So I'm talking with him and I'm channeling because I just had had dinner with you and you filled my head with all these thoughts about branding and positioning and all of this. And so I'm talking to this guy who has such a completely different model.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Federico Contiggiani]

So here, Roche Beaubois doesn't have their own factories. To them, and it's all about trying to reach that end consumer, to build that brand awareness. They're huge advertisers, They've been advertising for decades. And to them it's all about building the brand. And the hope is in America, where we know at that price point, it's much more designer driven. They're hoping that that consumer, that end user is going to. To their designer. No, no. I want that bubble sofa in my project. I don't care that you don't get a discount on it when you buy it or whatever. So they have this very different approach, but it's all about controlling that visual and those stores, almost all of which they've taken back from all of their franchise partners because I'm sure part of it was they weren't living up to the visual standards. Exactly right. But I mean, what do you think of that model and what do you think of going head to head with that, Dennis?

[Unknown]

That's the European model. Building a brand on a design language. A lot of our customers have been traveling to Paris and to Milan especially, and you get intoxicated by how beautiful some of these showrooms and spaces are. It's just incredible. And products are tailored so well. It's just beautiful to watch. But it's a model that is not built on quality. And some people may or may not disagree with me, but I feel the amount of quality we put here in the US in a US made product, it's much higher than our fellow European competitors do. The Hayway and Tide construction is something that's disappeared from Europe 30 years ago. Nobody does that. Every sofa is webbed, which is the cheapest way to build a sofa. It looks beautiful, don't get me wrong. I mean, it's designed by some incredible architect and designer. I get it. It's beauty versus substance. It's a different model and, and obviously it works. There is a customer for that. I respect those brands and I think everybody in our industry looks what happens in Milan every April, or at least we should. It's where the design bar really is raised. So I think it's an interesting coexistence between two different ways of approaching our furniture industry. And it's not necessarily a choice. It's actually a challenge that we are experiencing today here in North Carolina. The craftsmanship went away. They couldn't find people willing to do what they used to do. And factories had to reinvent themselves and find a new way to build products. And I don't blame them for going down that path. Of course, they invest a ton of money in building their brands. Look at Instagram followers for any of those brands. Their exposure is exponentially higher than anybody in High Point. It's just a different model and it's definitely a model based on different standards, if I can say that.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Well, so it sounds like your commitment to the eight way hand tight spring is central to this.

[Unknown]

It is. It really is. It's become a signature and it's the golden standard for a suspension system in a piece of upholstery. It's the best you can find. It's been around for centuries and it's never been replaced by a better way of doing it. Every dining chair we have introduced this past market is a way untied. It's something that very few companies will do, but we feel that it's part of the hickory chair standards. It's part of what we make and it's part of who we are.

[Federico Contiggiani]

So to your earlier point then, does producing at that high a quality level, does that make it challenging, margin wise?

[Unknown]

Absolutely. Absolutely. We put a lot of time and effort in what we build and inevitably we have to be competitive on the market. So somewhere this investment needs to go. And in our minds we believe that quality overcomes form and we believe in building the best possible product for our customers.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Leloi, whose fall introductions for all styles included new collections from collaborators Amber Lewis, Magnolia Home by Joanna Gaines and Rifle Paper company Plus newly added one of a kind rugs, pillows and wall art. Visit theloyrugs.com to see them all. That's L O l o I rugs.com and eloyrugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now back to the show.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Roche Beauboise, we were just talking about bought back a lot of its franchise partners over, over time. That just seemed like the sensible thing for them to do because they wanted to control the visual. And there were lots of other reasons too. It sounds like people wanted to retire or people, whatever, we get it. And we've been talking a lot recently about a lot of the big retailers going away, lots of family businesses closing up after 100 years because it's just such a challenging environment. And I'm assuming that's the same with the, with the sorts of showrooms that you're in. You're in all these different showrooms around the country. I assume the same challenges are being faced. Are you long term, are you all thinking about family run showrooms popping up in other locations? I know when I spoke to Alex last time he was trying to think about this issue.

[Unknown]

It's hard for us. We are manufacturers. We are really not good at selling furniture. I mean we sell it to people who are good at selling it. But that is a business model that it's always challenging. We want to trust partners that believe in us. We want to work with people who hopefully are going to be around for a long time. But there is no way to say what's going to happen in the future. To your point of what Alex was saying, somebody needs to figure this out. I do believe there is a place for a retail space that really includes all of these high end or all the high point brands and present them in the best possible way. I just don't know how that could shape in the future. I think our industry changes very quickly in a way.

[Federico Contiggiani]

You think the industry will change very quickly, you mean?

[Unknown]

I think even though we look like everything is quiet above water, underwater, we are paddling like crazy. Things constantly change. Brands come and go quickly. Brands that have been around for a century now have disappeared and nobody would have thought that to be possible. And every day new brands get introduced to the market and they do a phenomenal job and they have the future ahead of them. I think that there is room for, there is the space for somebody to figure out how to distribute our products to the public in a successful way. I just don't know exactly what that looks like right now. But for the time being we hope our partners will continue trusting us.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Well, I wonder if, I mean again. And when I think about going head to head with. Wait for it, you know where I'm going, Federico, you know, so I mean, but seriously though, I mean to go head to head with RH in some of these key markets, is there a partner that you have right now that maybe just needs some additional investment to encourage them to say we could put the rock house family of brands on their floor in a meaningful way in some of these markets to go head to head. Where are the Robin Stuckeys of the day? I don't know who the greats were.

[Unknown]

It's hard to tell. Dennis. I cannot think of anybody right now positioned in a way that to be able to do that, especially when competing with RH that, you know, let's be honest, they did something incredible. Gary built an empire and chapeau to him. I think it's going to be difficult to challenge in many ways, but at the end of the day, Restoration Hardware used to be a hardware company not long ago. So, you know, I'm a believer that there's going to be a solution coming up soon.

[Federico Contiggiani]

And does that mean that. Because I'm curious how you think about the evolution of product. We talked earlier about the various partners that you have. Do you feel like there are some. Some new partners, some new names that you need to go and look for to potentially speak to the next generation and make things with them in mind?

[Unknown]

We are entertaining multiple conversations. Nothing has been decided right now. I feel like we are uniquely represented right now by our partners in a way that really covers the vast majority of our customer design languages. But we need to keep an eye open. I think designers who are graduating today from grad school, you know, have a different take than someone who's been in the business for 30 or 40 years. We need to make sure that we think about the future. So we're definitely keeping our eye open on for the next. For the next partner, for equally chair.

[Federico Contiggiani]

But speaking of the students that are just getting out of design school, ever since ChatGPT first burst onto the scene and suddenly the AI conversation seemed really meaningful and substantive and to your point, happening very quickly. Do you think about investing in technology in a meaningful way? Kravit was showing us Apple vision and some tools that they were incorporating at high point and some other companies were trying to remind us that this technology is coming in a meaningful way. How do you prioritize it when you think about the investments you want to make?

[Unknown]

I think that technology you mentioned is beautiful. It's amazing. But who's telling you that somebody can make that? You see it in front of you. It looks real, but you don't see the real thing. You are not sitting on it. You are trusting somebody to deliver something that's going to look exactly like what you see through those goggles, but it doesn't mean that's going to happen. So I feel like the quality of our product still needs to be represented in real life, especially when we get into the customization conversation. I think that's something that requires. Requires a touch and feel process to deliver what the customer exactly wants. But to answer your question, we are using AI. We are starting to use AI in the office and we are starting to understand how that's going to affect our industry. We are not using it for product development. We are still not with. We're not using that for any product. So I still believe in the human part of what we do to be the driving force. But we are keeping an eye open on that. We are investing in configurators and trying to represent our products online. But again, it's not easy to represent something that is so configurable and so customizable in every possible way, shape and form. So I don't know. I still believe in the analog way of representing our products.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Okay, well, I mean, that certainly makes sense. So many companies still tell me how little transaction wise is really happening on their website still. And so the websites become this tool to inform, hopefully to educate, to maybe get people excited to come and look at the product. But ultimately it just sounds like, and you tell me for you specifically, just sounds like a lot of business isn't actually happening on the site.

[Unknown]

We don't sell online our products. It's really hard to sell online whenever you are difficult to deal with. It just doesn't work. We have to be the easiest to deal with and that will be extremely strong with our customers. It's still a business based on relationships and still why people come to Highpoint every six months. There is a trust component that is impossible to avoid and thankfully.

[Federico Contiggiani]

So no, it makes sense. Speaking of Highpoint and coming twice a year, lots of discussions with people who have been showing at High Point for a long time. It was interesting to hear the news out of Cologne that they're not going to be having that fair because people overseas weren't signing up as much. And a lot of people wondering, do I need to come twice a year? Are there other markets I should be showing at? What's your sense? What's your take on all that?

[Unknown]

I still love High Point. I still feel that that's our time to shine and be the best we can be. So I'm fairly agnostic. There is a part of the industry that will tell you that we need to go to one show a year. Another part of the industry will tell you that the two shows a year are necessary. I could go either way for different reasons, but I don't see Highpoint going away ever. I think it's such a phenomenal week for us, at least, it's a week in Highpoint for designers and for customers to be educated, to see what happens in the industry, to connect to attend events and panels. It's just so much more than just a trade show.

[Federico Contiggiani]

And interestingly, I mean, for you, I would think the fact that High Point seems to have become a much more designer driven show than it had even been five, 10 years ago when designers weren't as warmly welcomed as they are now. People weren't allowed to take pictures back in the day. People were discouraged. So, I mean, have you felt the impact of it being much more designer driven, or do you feel like designers are coming in much greater numbers?

[Unknown]

Absolutely, yes. Every market. And I have also to. I have a biased situation because we moved our showroom from the original location at Market Square to our new location at 300 North Hamilton, which is such a better place. It's such a better location for us. And it's almost easy for us to be excited about the traffic that we get every market just because of how good that location is. I welcome designers to our showroom in every possible way. It's definitely something. It gives me pleasure to have these guests. And I always say to our customers, this showroom is your home away from home. Come back for a coffee, come back. If you have to send emails, just.

[Federico Contiggiani]

No, you've made it very nice. You've got that fancy coffee maker that you got. You've made it pretty inviting and there's always a good lunch to be had. There's a nice bar there. Yeah, no, no, no.

[Unknown]

Checking old boxes.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Yeah, no, no. Which is very smart. I guess part of my question is, is there a market that's calling you? Like, do you wish you were in Los Angeles in the same kind of way? Or. I mean, some people are thinking, and it sounded like Alex was thinking, he's got to go to ve least see what it's like and see right, if that's mean.

[Unknown]

We will be in Las Vegas. We're going to be showing at the Las Vegas market in a RHF showroom. You know, the west coast is hard to reach for us here in North Carolina, it's a long, long way. And of course, they have great manufacturers over there. And freight always plays a factor in, in pricing our products.

[Federico Contiggiani]

There's a perception and you tell me how it shows up for you, if it does. Designers seem to be increasingly dissatisfied with a lot of their suppliers these days. And some of it might well be residual holdover from the agony that they endured during COVID and the long lead times and the waiting you mentioned the freight issues and often damages and all of that comes up. But just in general, when we talk to designers, they're challenged with some of their key suppliers.

[Unknown]

Absolutely. I can tell you, Dennis, my better half is an interior designer, so I hear it all day long. We live in a strange world where customers are used to what I call the Amazon effect. You order something shows up at your door two days later, and you don't like it, send it back. No big deal. Here we're talking about a very sophisticated piece of furniture that has to be built by hand in a limited amount of time. Coordinating different vendors, coordinating different situations at the factory, coordinating a lot that happens every day. And it's just a challenging process. And it's kind of what. But where a lot of things can go wrong. We try to be the best possible at what we do, but there is no doubt we have upset our customers in the past, and probably we do every day. I think the key is how you deal with these issues. And at the bottom of it, there has to be honesty, and there has to be the best possible outcome for our customers because. Because that's what we value the most. I respect our customers deeply and I respect their opinions. And it really upsets when we fail them. It really upsets me when we come short. But inevitably it happens. Sometimes we just try to do the best we can.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Well, and certainly when you explain to me that 47% of the orders are com, that gives me pretty good insight to how challenging your. Your business is. That's quite a high percentage. So I get it. As we wrap up, Federico, I'm wondering, when you're not running a big old furniture company and you're not focused on making those designers happy one at a time, is there some other passion that you enjoy? Is there something. When you get away, what do you do?

[Unknown]

I'm Italian, so my wife and I love to eat, love to travel, but I do have a passion for art. I do have a passion for anything that inspires me. And I'm lucky, I'm extremely lucky to have married a patient and talented individual that manages to. To deal with me every day. But I do have a passion, as you mentioned earlier, for fashion, for jewelry, for anything that catches my eye. I love industrial design. I love product design. I love ergonomics and architecture and beauty as a whole.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Do you think that. And again, all joking aside, do you think that growing up Italian just gives you a heightened sense of seeing beauty and appreciating it.

[Unknown]

Absolutely, yes. And I don't want to say that in a. It's not like every Italian, every single one of the 65 million Italians ever has.

[Federico Contiggiani]

They all just seem to have this incredible eye.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Amazing.

[Unknown]

And I'm not saying that I do either at all. But growing up surrounded by beauty unconsciously, I feel helps recognizing it when you see it. And I think it's. You look at every industry, every manufacturing industry coming out of Italy is high hand. Everything is somewhat connected to beauty. Being born and raised in that part of the world just exposed me to more beauty and I somehow have been drawn to it since.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Yeah, no, no, no. It seems a won a wonderful grounding and often I'm envious when I talk to my European friends who just have a different sensibility about it and also just a very different way of looking at how to live and how to prioritize eating and drinking and family and friends and all of that. So earlier in the conversation you said, dennis, I'm feeling so good about 2025. I'm introducing so much new product. If you are feeling optimistic about 2025, and I'm glad to hear that you are, what else does that mean you're doing right now to get ready for it being a lot busier in six months? Let's say.

[Unknown]

Well, we are keeping a close eye on our factory capacity is a top of mind for me. We have survived Covid where our capacity wasn't matching our incoming order rate. And we have learned a lesson that we don't want to force our customer to wait months, sometimes years for our products. That's not sustainable. So that is top of mind for me, is making sure that our manufacturing capacity is able to scale up to the volume that we are expecting for next year. Year. We've been fortunate. This 2024 has been extremely good for us. Our performance has been extremely good and our incoming orders have been considerably better than 2023. So we have already kind of sped up our pace and that's helping us having that momentum both in manufacturing and as a mindset in the company. I think we are a big organism. We go from customer service to manufacturing to product development, merchandising, sales. We are all doing something together and we have to move as one. And that's what we are doing and what I'm trying to make sure my team is ready for.

[Federico Contiggiani]

And what do you attribute your strength in 2024 to? I mean, not a lot of people are telling us that this has been a great year. So I mean, what are you? What are you doing? Right?

[Unknown]

I am not entirely sure. I just keep doing what I'm doing and hope for the best. But jokes aside, I think it's maintaining a consistency in delivering high quality product, delivering new introductions that are appealing, delivering a messaging that is speaking to our customers. It's a combination of what we do. Right. And also making sure that we work with the best in the industry. I don't know if that's the answer, but that's what we're gonna keep doing moving forward.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Okay. All right, well, so looking for more strength in 2025, but 2024 hasn't been too bad, so not at all. All right. Well, I love to end on that upbeat note and it's been such a pleasure talking with you, Federico. Thank you so much.

[Unknown]

It's been a pleasure joining you today, Dennis. I truly enjoyed our conversation and thank you for having me.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH ins community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Enjoying these conversations, please leave us a.

[Dennis Scully]

Review on Apple Podcasts.

[Federico Contiggiani]

It helps others to discover the show.

[Dennis Scully]

This show was produced by Fred Nicholaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully.

[Federico Contiggiani]

Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.