House & Garden: How a British magazine became a must-read for American designers

Summary

Business of Home Podcast Summary
Episode: "House & Garden: How a British Magazine Became a Must-Read for American Designers"
Release Date: December 16, 2024
Host: Dennis Scully
Guest: Hatta Bing, Editor of House and Garden

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1. Introduction

In this engaging episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully sits down with Hatta Bing, the editor of the renowned British magazine House and Garden. Despite its British origins, House and Garden has garnered a substantial American readership, admired for its storytelling, classic English style, and focus on authentic homes rather than celebrity-driven content.

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2. Hatta Bing’s Background and Heritage

Timestamps: [04:17] – [07:00]

Hatta Bing opens up about her family's aristocratic heritage, discussing the poignant reality that as one of three daughters, she will not inherit her father's title, Viscount Torrington. This realization marks the end of her family's lineage title, a sentiment she shares with a sense of sadness:

“It really is the sort of end of any kind of that family in a way... our name won’t carry on.”
– Hatta Bing [05:24]

She reflects on her father's adventurous past as a geologist and how it inspired her, though she chose a different path in the arts. Her academic pursuit in art and architectural history at the University of Edinburgh and the Courtauld Institute paved the way for her career in interior design and journalism.

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3. Career Path to Editing House and Garden

Timestamps: [07:00] – [11:25]

Hatta recounts her initial career steps, including a formative stint in South Africa working for House and Garden, where she transitioned from mundane tasks like ordering film to writing and participating in photoshoots. This experience built her portfolio and set her up for future opportunities.

Her ascent to the role of editor in October 2014, marking nearly a decade in the position, was facilitated by her extensive experience and close work with her predecessor. When offered the editor position by Nicholas Coleridge, then head of Condé Nast Europe, she initially hesitated but ultimately embraced the role to drive the magazine forward:

“I felt I should go for it and I felt as a woman it was rather pathetic not to go for it.”
– Hatta Bing [07:00]

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4. The Philosophy of House and Garden’s Design Selection

Timestamps: [14:02] – [16:05]

House and Garden prides itself on showcasing a diverse array of homes, selecting projects that reflect different perspectives, scales, budgets, and styles. Hatta emphasizes the importance of balance and authenticity:

“We want to show houses that feel believable... we want houses that have layers of life in there.”
– Hatta Bing [18:29]

She shares insights into their selection process, aiming for originality and bravery in design, avoiding the repetitive and sanitized aesthetics often fueled by social media trends.

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5. British vs. American Design Sensibilities

Timestamps: [17:02] – [19:47]

Hatta discusses the distinct differences between British and American design preferences. She notes that American designers often have larger budgets and bigger homes, allowing for more polished and high-finish interiors. In contrast, British homeowners tend to embrace “a bit of scruffiness” and value layering and personal storytelling in their spaces:

“We might be scruffier, a bit scruff or happy, content with a bit scruffiness.”
– Hatta Bing [19:49]

This cultural divergence contributes to the magazine’s unique appeal among American designers seeking a different aesthetic.

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6. Navigating Digital Platforms and Audience Engagement

Timestamps: [22:34] – [41:54]

Recognizing the shift in media consumption, Hatta outlines House and Garden’s strategic expansion into digital platforms like TikTok, WhatsApp, and their website. While the print magazine remains central, digital channels allow for real-time interaction and broader reach:

“We can use social media to amplify those stories, to add to those stories, to reach more people.”
– Hatta Bing [22:34]

Hatta highlights the success of their Design Notes series online, which has resonated with a younger demographic (25-45 years old). The magazine's digital presence has not only increased accessibility but also diversified the content, including more how-tos and travel features.

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7. Celebrity Homes and Editorial Choices

Timestamps: [24:00] – [27:18]

A significant aspect of House and Garden’s editorial policy is the minimal focus on celebrity homes. Hatta explains that featuring homes owned by famous individuals is neither central to their mission nor necessary for their readership:

“We don’t need to feature those [celebrity] homes for what we’re trying to do.”
– Hatta Bing [24:08]

Instead, the magazine prioritizes showcasing quality design and authentic living spaces, occasionally featuring celebrities only when it aligns with their editorial focus without overshadowing the home's design merits.

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8. Impact of Social and Political Changes on Design

Timestamps: [36:32] – [40:26]

Hatta touches upon the influence of broader societal shifts, such as the COVID-19 pandemic and recent political upheavals, on how people perceive and interact with their living spaces. The magazine responds by offering content that emphasizes comfort, escapism, and adaptability within tighter budgets:

“We feel a responsibility to provide escapism and to be uplifting.”
– Hatta Bing [37:39]

Despite industry challenges like layoffs, House and Garden has thrived by expanding its digital footprint and maintaining a strong, engaged readership.

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9. Future Directions and 10-Year Anniversary

Timestamps: [28:31] – [47:02]

As House and Garden approaches its 10th anniversary under Hatta’s editorship, she reflects on the magazine’s evolution from a print-centric publication to a multi-platform brand. The role now encompasses brand curation, licensing deals, and commercial considerations, broadening the magazine’s influence beyond traditional print:

“I’m no longer just the editor of the magazine... I'm a curator of a brand.”
– Hatta Bing [29:29]

Hatta also discusses future plans, including expanding content across various digital platforms and continuing to highlight rising design talents through initiatives like the 25 Rising Stars list. The upcoming anniversary issue celebrates a decade of curated design excellence, featuring a selection of rooms that encapsulate the magazine’s ethos.

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10. Conclusion

Concluding the conversation, Hatta Bing emphasizes the magazine’s commitment to authenticity, quality design, and responsive adaptation to the ever-changing media landscape. Her leadership has not only sustained House and Garden’s prestige but also propelled it into new realms of digital engagement, ensuring its relevance and inspiration for both British and American design communities.

“Whatever you’re doing, you’re doing it right.”
– Dennis Scully [46:33]

Hatta expresses her gratitude and excitement for the future, highlighting the collaborative and passionate team that underpins the magazine’s success.

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Key Takeaways:

• Authenticity Over Celebrity: House and Garden prioritizes genuine, lived-in homes over celebrity-driven content, fostering a unique niche in the design magazine landscape.

• Cultural Distinctions in Design: The magazine leverages British design sensibilities, offering American readers a distinct alternative to mainstream design media influenced by social platforms like Instagram.

• Digital Expansion: Embracing digital platforms has allowed House and Garden to reach a younger, more diverse audience, ensuring growth and continued relevance.

• Resilience in Changing Times: The publication’s focus on comfort and adaptability has resonated strongly amidst global challenges, reinforcing its role as a sanctuary for design enthusiasts.

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Notable Quotes:

“We want to show houses that feel believable... we want houses that have layers of life in there.”
– Hatta Bing [18:29]

“We might be scruffier, a bit scruff or happy, content with a bit scruffiness.”
– Hatta Bing [19:49]

“We can use social media to amplify those stories, to add to those stories, to reach more people.”
– Hatta Bing [22:34]

“I felt I should go for it and I felt as a woman it was rather pathetic not to go for it.”
– Hatta Bing [07:00]

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the insightful dialogue between Dennis Scully and Hatta Bing, highlighting the strategic vision and passion driving House and Garden’s enduring appeal among American designers.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is the editor of House and Garden Had a Bing. Though House and Garden is a British magazine, it's become a must read for many American designers who flock to Hatta's publication for its storytelling and production value, its classic English style, and its focus on great homes, not celebrities. I spoke with Hatta about why she's been embracing digital platforms like TikTok and WhatsApp, why she wants the homes in her magazines to be believable, and how House and Garden provides comfort in a time of instability. This podcast is sponsored by Liloi, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. This season, Lilloy introduces a breadth of new collections for all styles, all aesthetics, and all price points. Visit liloirugs.com to see what's new and sign up for a trade account that's L O l o I rugs.com and follow them on Instagram and TikTok eloirugs. This podcast is also sponsored by Claffs, the world leader in sauna luxury at home. Wellness rooms are on the rise, and Claffs designs saunas for the discerning eye. With nearly a century of storied craftsmanship and innovation, Claffs has perfected the art of sauna. The result? Distinct and elegant designs that harness the transformative powers of heat. There are saunas and then there are Claffs saunas. To learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit klaffsusa.com that's K L A F S USA.com and now back to the show.

[Hatta Bing]

So I was going to ask you, I mean, so with your father growing up, with your father being a geologist, was there ever a thought in your mind about pursuing any part of that? Did his work seem interesting and engaging and alluring?

Not really. I think by the time children came on the scene, it felt like he was pretty dust bound. And so, yes, I mean, we always saw him as a sort of fountain of knowledge. If we went for a walk, he could tell us about any rock or anything that we wanted, but. Or how the land had formed like that. But I don't think I particularly ever wanted to follow him in his footsteps. And I think I was always sort of more heavily kind of drawn to the arts and down that route. Really? Yeah.

So the Indiana Jones lifestyle that he once led, flying small planes in Africa that, that didn't, that didn't appeal, not really.

Although, you know, gosh, I did grow up on stories about it and it definitely had a romance. And you know, when I first went in my year between school and university, I did go to Africa and did, you know, he really wanted me to see it in the way that he had to a certain extent and kind of borrowed a car for me and I had to drive this sort of battered jeep around with friends where everybody else was sort of getting on buses. I was driving this battered jeep from place to place and sort of finding myself in broken down in front of an elephant.

But the stories that you had to tell.

Exactly. It was definitely sort of character building stuff and I'm very glad. I'd never send anybody else off on the same trip, but I'm really glad I did it.

And we should talk a little bit about your family's heritage and the whole title issue and we should explain that to our listeners as well just so that they fully understand the context of your family background and heritage. So tell me about that.

Gosh. Well, I mean, I don't know how relevant it is in a way to my life today, but I think you.

Wish it was more relevant, right?

Well, yes, I suppose in some ways because my father has a title. He is the 11th Viscount Torrington and I'm one of three girls. So we will not inherit this title and it will go to somebody who we haven't actually met and who doesn't live in the uk. So that is a sadness because it is a sort of dying out of a family sort of line, I suppose. And he in fact inherited a house, quite a big house in Kent, beautiful house, when he was one year old. But his grandfather and father died at the same time, just during the war and there were double death duties, so it was sold. So it really is the sort of end of any kind of that family in a way with. Well, it's not, obviously we all carry on, but our name won't carry on. I'm keeping sticking to the name Bing, but beyond that.

Well, and growing up, did you, did you have much of a sense of this, of this history and of the family's position?

I mean, my father was pretty active in the House of Lords growing up. He got his title, I think he was 18 or something, so he was young and we had a party there. In fact, my sister had her wedding reception in the House of Lords, so there was that element of it. And we have lots of portraits of previous Viscount Torringtons.

Well, and did your father, did your father ever sit you down or have a talk with you about, listen, I'm so sorry, the way that Britain is structured, this isn't going to come to you. Or did you all just always know that? That was never.

I think we always knew and I knew that he sort of quietly minded about it. He was sad.

He was sad about it.

I don't think he wanted a fourth child, I think, or, you know, he didn't want to carry on having children just to have a boy that.

Just to roll the dice and see if we get an heir.

Yeah, he didn't, he didn't mind about it as much as that. But I suppose when it came, that was why, when it came, when I got the sort of opportunity to campaign for the right to inherit the title, I felt I should go for it and I felt as a woman it was rather pathetic not to go for it. In this day and age when I'm as educated as any brother, I, you know, and I have a, you know, I hold down a job and I didn't feel that. I think in this day and age it's completely outdated.

So knowing that you weren't going to the House of Lords, instead, it seems like you pursued, as you said earlier, an education in architectural history and art history. Yes, tell me a little bit about that.

It's always been a sort of fascination, I suppose. And my mother used to drop me off with, in the school holidays with the personal who had made her curtains and I'd help her with all her fabrics and her fabric samples and then she'd send me home with her magazines. So, you know, it's been a real interest and that developed. So I then obviously read History of Art at university at Edinburgh and then I did a Master's in architectural history at the Courtauld, got a job with Joanna Wood, the interior designer who was then based on Pimlico Road, which was an extraordinary training. So. Yeah.

And what happened that you didn't continue to pursue being an interior designer?

Well, so I suddenly had kind of uncareer related, had this burning desire to go and live somewhere abroad and sort of make a life for myself and put myself to the challenge. Not necessarily think it was a career opportunity, but took myself off to South Africa where my as my father has a South African passport and I had could apply for my South African passport and work there and I got a very lowly job working for house and garden there. I mean I was literally ordering film for photo shoots to begin with.

Someone's Got to order the film. Someone's got to.

Right, Exactly.

Yes.

It was a really good learning curve. So. But when I got there, then suddenly, because I knew about the subject and I perhaps had a wider perspective than some of the people who'd only ever lived and worked in Cape Town, I was quickly writing things, and two years there and I had done a huge. I'd written a huge amount, been on shoots with photographers, and so, yeah, so when I decided then to come back, I had this portfolio of work to my name and it had been a really good training. And I didn't come back thinking, gosh, I've got to get a job in magazines. But it had set me down a very good path.

So correct me if I'm wrong, we're coming up on the 10th anniversary of you being in the. In your current role.

Yes. So I started my role in October 2014. But, yes, my anniversary, my first issue was February 2015, which will be on the newsstands at the beginning of January.

And how is it that you were offered the editor position?

Well, so I had already worked at House and Garden for eight years and worked really closely with the editor. And to begin with, I thought, gosh, when she rang me up and said, I'm retiring, I sort of sat with it for a bit. I even told my husband, I'm not going for it. Not because I didn't necessarily want to, but because I had one child, I couldn't. You know, she didn't have any children, couldn't see her. And I knew I wanted more children. But then I sat with that for a couple of weeks and I. Or not even. And I just felt so uncomfortable about it and then decided to go for it. And it was a really sort of exciting time and sort of then thinking about, you know, what I wanted to do with the magazine at that point, really, all I was asked about was the magazine. That was what they cared about. And it was. And, you know, I had quite a few interviews talking about the magazine. And, you know, just in the last interview, he sent me away to come back with the four things. You know, he wanted me to write down the four things I was going to do. So it was very specific. But, gosh, what an opportunity. Well, I was very lucky, of course.

What an interesting opportunity. And so who was it that you were interviewing with at the time? Who was at the time?

It was Nicholas Coleridge. Yeah. Who was then the head of Conde Nast here and Conde Nas Europe.

Right, okay. And so he said to you, come back with four Big ideas for what you'd.

Yes. I mean, not necessarily big ideas. He was very hot on the idea that I mustn't come in and kind.

Of make too many changes.

Make too many changes to begin with. He felt that was totally the wrong way to go about it. It was a successful magazine with a loyal readership and I needed to kind of slowly think about what I wanted to do, which is what we did, I suppose. And you're about to ask me, I know, what four things I came and I now can't remember for the library.

I won't ask you to remember, but I am curious. Don't worry, I'm not going to put you on the spot like that. Yes, rattle those off, will you, from all those years ago. And what were you having for dinner that night? I'm also going to ask you that question, too. I want to recall the exact menu, but I am. But I am curious because, of course, you're so right that with magazines, especially because of the long lead times and all, change happens slowly and incrementally and. Right. Nothing is done overnight. And you're always very conscious of the reader and not wanting to disrupt. And one never has an absolute understanding of what part of the magazine readers love the most. Right. I mean, you think, you get a sense and you're always trying to write and create the magazine for this reader, but you never know what's going to disrupt or upset. So I understand slow change. What I'm interested about, besides the four things, is what were you eager to express yourself over the years when you thought about taking on the role? Did you imagine, oh, if I get this job, I'm going to be able to say this or to cover this in a way that we're not doing before. I wonder, was there something you were aching to do and thought you'd be able to do over the. Over the years at the magazine?

I mean, sue was the most brilliant editor and I learned so much under her and I was really lucky to work under her. And it was, you know, at that stage, it really was about crafting every page. And I think it was more, you know, it was probably time for a bit of a refresh. You know, she had been thinking for the last few years, and I think, you know, that she was going to retire, so they probably hadn't. So I think there was. That we definitely set out to take it forward was really what we were looking to do. And we always used to have a house that she called Ladies Taste. And I think that was the sort of safe house. And I think we have less of those. We certainly have access, you know, they can be accessible in a certain way. But I think I'm probably a little bit less worried about satisfying that need. And that's just. Times have changed a bit, I suppose. Yeah.

When you think about good design and celebrating and trying to put forth good design, what does that mean to you?

[Dennis Scully]

And how do you think about the.

[Hatta Bing]

Projects that you select through that lens?

So within an issue, say we have four houses. We're looking for different points of views, different types of houses, different scales of projects, different budgets, different styles. You know, that's how we put together an issue. And it's all about the balance. I suppose I often feel I've got to want to live in one of them, but there might be three houses that I probably don't want to live in, But I totally get what they're doing and admire them and it may be because they're a bit too brave for me. I mean, you know, but. But I. But I like that bravery. I'm excited by that bravery and I hope there will be people who are too kind of thing.

So speaking of the bravery, one of the criticisms in the Instagram algorithm driven world that we suddenly find ourselves in is that so many projects are feeling repetitive or look alike.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Hatta Bing]

And there's a safety in selecting that certain sofa that we all know. Right. And so you put that in your project and you know it's going to. Going to do well. Are you looking for people who are taking more of a risk and shaking things up a little bit more? How do you think about that?

Absolutely. And I think we are absolutely looking for that sort of different way of thinking. The originality, not. I mean, you know, people don't need to live in an original house necessarily, but what we're showing to people needs to say something a bit different. It can't be what we're being fed through Instagram. I was embarrassed when we showed, you know, our house in the magazine and sadly there we've got a scallop lampshade on the front cover. But I'm hoping that the scallop lampshade is sort of slightly out of context to the other times that you see that scallop lampshade and hopefully it's all right.

So the December issue shows your husband's family home and where, where his mother grew up and.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Hatta Bing]

And how did that feel for you showing that house? And how did, how did poor Charlie feel about the whole thing?

Yeah, I mean, he's he loves that house, as I think I wrote in the article. He absolutely loves it, and he loves everything about it and was so excited about the project. So he's very proud of it. I mean, I think I'm more nervous about it in some ways, because I feel the scrutiny and the scrutiny of all the things. Like when we projects come into us and we say, oh, gosh, we've seen that again, and, ooh, what a horrid rug. I'm thinking people are looking at our house like that. You know, some of the things we've always had, some things Charlie bought without me, I might not have chosen them. It was really a collaborative project, so it's not in any way a sort of perfect vision, but I think that's all right, too. And that's what we're showing as something that we love living there. I think we've created some lovely rooms, even if each individual thing is not necessarily what I love. You know, if you focus in on something, there might be a few things in there I really don't like.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and I feel.

[Hatta Bing]

And you tell me. But it seems like in the UK especially, there's a lot of history in both the home and the interior that one doesn't necessarily want to fully disturb.

Yeah, I think so. I think it's really important to keep onto those memories and to have the layers of memory and storytelling that different things add to a room and make it feel personal and to have the things that aren't necessarily the most beautiful thing, but they have resonance to you. I think, you know, the. I still get great pleasure from some of the first pictures I bought as a student and hung in my Edinburgh flat. Yeah.

You and I have talked about the fact that so many American designers love your magazine. Literally. I was sitting next to one of my colleagues last night at the BOH holiday party, and our founder was going on. I told her I was talking to you, and she said, oh, my God, it's my favorite magazine, and I just like the projects that you show. She said, they just seem like they're lived in, like they have a warmth, but they're also. They're beautifully decorated, of course, but it isn't all brand new or of the moment, necessarily. And that seems part of what you're delivering.

Absolutely. And I think it is really important to us. And we often, when designers bring us projects, say, could we wait a year, and there's a bit more layering of life in there, or could we reshoot? Because they've obviously taken out the layers of life. Because they don't, you know, and we, we want to, I suppose, show houses that feel believable. And I'm trying to think why that is, why we need it. I mean, you aren't asking me what the difference was though, were you, between American and British or are you asking?

Well, we can certainly talk about that. How do you describe what you see as the difference?

I think it is partly that in America, people, they have bigger houses, they probably have more money, earn more money, have more money to spend. I really see the value of an interior designer and having some their house designed by somebody, so it really kind of works. And if they're spending a lot of money on fabrics, that the curtains are well made and made to the right design, I think people perhaps want a higher level of finish and polish than we, perhaps. I think we might be scruffier. A bit scruff or happy, Content with a bit scruffiness.

Content with a bit of scruffiness, exactly. Yes.

Yeah. And I think that is a bit the difference. I also think we British people are more used to getting on with it themselves and I think there is a frugality. We don't always want to be seen to be spending money or feel embarrassed to be spending money or until quite recently anyway, I think that's changing. But I think whereas in the US it's quite acceptable to spend money on your house in that way.

[Dennis Scully]

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[Hatta Bing]

It's interesting as you were just suggesting that historically the British have seemed more reluctant to both show their homes in general. Right. And there isn't that sort of ostentatious or wanting to show off sort of sort of mentality. And also there hasn't been a priority placed on hiring an interior decorator. That just wasn't done as much for us.

It really was more the really grand houses and it has only been more recently. More people are employing interior designers and I think you Know, people now really do see the value in it, that over the last couple of decades, people's interest in good design and living stylishly has grown enormously here. Really?

And what do we attribute that to?

I think perhaps we have been influenced, like everything by the us to a degree. You know, whether it's Halloween or how we do up our houses, I think that has been a huge impact. I also think, I think Covid had a huge impact on how we look at our houses, and we know that. And I also think obviously with Instagram and social media, that has also hugely influenced people's attitudes to their houses because they're being fed so much more about it, aren't they?

Tell me how you're thinking about taking the publication and spreading it out onto all these different platforms today.

The print magazine is still absolutely the cornerstone of what we do and. But then we can use social media to amplify those stories, to add to those stories, to reach more people, to tell more stories. I mean, we now shoot probably more houses that go up on straight up onto digital, up onto the website than go into print. Just because it's a hungry beast that needs feeding. And then we can also tell it with video. And our Design Notes series has been so amazingly successful and reached all corners of the earth, really. And that's what's been so satisfying for us. And you know, our biggest audience from the work for the website is 25 to 34 year olds, then it's 34 to 45 year olds. So we're reaching a whole new audience through our website and our social media. And it has an immediacy that we just can't have in print.

Well, so what's, what's missing from your covers and so much of your coverage, Hatta, is where the heck are all the big celebrities? Where, where are all those celebrity home projects? I thought that was what you needed to drive magazine sales. Is that not true?

I don't think. It's just not what we're about where we feature a house owned by somebody famous. We probably don't even say that.

We don't even tell you who it is.

Yeah. And even where there are people, I mean, I was looking at the Via Grenier story that's in the current ad and thinking, gosh, I would have loved to have published that. But actually, even for those, the owners of that house, they probably wanted to show themselves off and actually we wouldn't really, because that's not what we're about. We might have a picture include a picture of them, but we wouldn't. We certainly wouldn't have them on the front cover. I think the other thing is that most celebrities in this country just do not want to show their houses. As much as we'd love to be able to show, feature some of them, they don't want it. So that's another thing. We have got Richard E. Grant, actually, we've got his house in the current issue.

Well, so. But that's the funny thing. So, yes, and you, of course, you'll have celebrity homes, but as you say, it's not. It's not immediately going on the COVID and you're not showing the people and you're not. Right. And I'm wondering what's different about the economics and the independence that you have that you don't need to do that, or do the British tabloids cover the famous people and the shelter magazines don't have.

I mean, we do, but. I mean, we do. I mean, it is, you know, it's depressing that sometimes you put a story about, you know, Meghan and Harry's house that does always. And every time they're in the press again, the story gets more traffic. So. So there is inevitably some of that, but we don't need it for what we're doing and what we're trying to do. And, you know, people really want here in this country, really want to advertise in it. And so it's a strong magazine without doing that. And then I think the way we've crafted our website and our social media, people are just hungry for those beautiful images and the expert advice, that's what they're coming to us for. So I think we just built around a different way of doing things and we've just stuck to what we do and celebrating this wonderful world of design and all its richness and its depth, and it's done well for us. So we've just, you know, it's just different. And I suppose there are much bigger. Us is a much bigger kind of country. The distribution, the way things work, it's just. It is just different.

We had a guest on the show recently, Dan Rosen, who is somewhat a comedian, somewhat a critic, and he does wonderful videos of home tours and pokes a little bit of fun at things. And people enjoy hearing people making a little bit of fun sometimes of some of the. Of some of the projects that are held up and celebrated. I wonder, in Britain, is there much design criticism or are there some strong voices that are telling you what good design really means? And that's so Much of what is central to how you're thinking about the magazine. But you're not necessarily saying this is good, this is bad, and here's why.

No, I mean, I think it's very difficult to feature something bad. And so I don't think we have room to feature the sort of thing that hasn't worked in a way. So some of our criticism comes in just saying no to something or leaving it out is that it's not in there. That is the criticism. Right. And then we are very much kind of pointing out why something does work. But I also think we're, you know, things like our do's and don'ts of decorating. You know, Carlos Garcia, I was thinking he'll say, don't have an oversized head. I was just looking at a house that's come in from a designer. The first thing, the picture we looked at had an oversized headboard that is perhaps goes along with the scallop lampshade. And, you know, so there are ways of doing it without kind of hurting people. I think one has to be a bit careful of criticizing when it's somebody's home. I think that's really difficult to do. I also think criticism could look snobby. I mean, what's wrong with having an oversized headboard if you really want one? So I think we can gently point out that maybe things have moved on. But I think interior design criticism of people's homes is you have to be a bit careful about. Right.

No, no, understandably. And that's, and that's the challenge, I think sometimes with the celebrity coverage is that the projects are being held up and we know in our heart of hearts that it's not great work or that it's not great design, but it's attached to somebody that's going to bring a lot of audience. So again, we get that. We understand that trade off. It seems that. And you mentioned that the advertisers want to be in a print publication and that still works in a way that it wasn't working as well in the US and that was part of what had to change. And I'm curious, looking back over your 10 year tenure now at the magazine, what feels like it has changed the most or what feels like it's very different from how you work or the kinds of things that you are showing or doing from 10 years ago?

I mean, I suppose what's changed most of all is that we are now I'm no longer just the editor of a magazine or not just, but I'm no Longer the editor of the magazine. I'm a curator of a brand in, however, which way that's manifesting itself. We're looking at licensing deals and whether it feels right for us, how involved we could get, whether we believe in them, whether, you know, whether it's worth putting the effort in for the return. So I think we are. Think I am having to think more commercially in that way. And I think what's also changed is just the volume of our output in that while the print is still so highly crafted, and I see it in each page in many different iterations digitally, it's such a hungry beast, I can't possibly read everything. So I think that is what has changed. And also, therefore, we. We cover many more types of content online than we would do in print, and there's much more room for kind of the how tos and the advice than we have in print, where, yes, we have some of that, but not nearly to the extent of that, actually. Also, what has become in the last 10 years, what has got bigger is we do a lot more travel content. And that has been kind of really good for us people. Always. We've always been told that when we feature a story, people book it. So that's. We've, you know, we have power. So that's been. That's been good for us. The other thing is obviously that we now have kind of need to make more of certain moments in our year. And before I took over House and garden, our top 100 lists, we did every three years. It was a big thing, but it wasn't what it is today. Now we, through the course, we have our 25 rising stars, our 50 garden designers, we have awards, and it's a huge amount of work. But it's also really rewarding in that we really are. I feel like we really are sort of championing the stars of today and those of tomorrow, really. And I love the fact that the people who feature on our 25 Rising Stars really get noticed. And whoever I talk to, they get jobs out of it. You know, people say it's like a light bulb turning on. It's so. I love the fact that we're making the most of what we've got and I suppose our authority and our power to give a platform to these people and then celebrate the real stars. Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Leloi, whose newest introductions for All Styles included new collections from collaborators Amber Lewis, Magnolia Home by Joanna Gaines and Rifle Paper Company, plus newly added one of a kind rugs, pillows and wall art. Visit leloyrugs.com to see them all. That's L O L O I and alloy rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now back to the show.

[Hatta Bing]

So for the designers listening to the show, who would love nothing more than to have a project published in your publication, besides preparing them for how long they they might have to wait for you to find a place and to think about it all, what else do you try and tell designers to be thoughtful of when they're wanting to have a project in your publication?

So I think it goes back to that same thing that we want, houses that kind of feel very right for their building and their location and have a sense of the owner and of a little bit of a story of that of the owner and that express a point of view or a different way of thinking. And most of all, I think we just, I mean, we don't need to necessarily see things shot. Sometimes the way designers shoot things is, as I said before, again, it's too pristine and we want to see it looking a bit more lived. And so actually some good recce shots, just lots of images, every angle that can be photographed, send it to us and then we go from there. And I think the thing is also not to get disheartened when we say no, because we do see a lot of projects. So it's no, keep trying is what I always say to people. We want to see your work. And it's no judgment on it necessarily.

And as you say, you only show. I don't know if it's four projects in each issue, so I mean, you can do.

Yeah. And if it's a. We're not probably going to show more than one US Project in an issue. So if it. I'm talking to majority US audience here, perhaps, yes, you know, it does mean there's less. We're trying. We're having to pick the very best or the most relevant to a particular issue or time.

Well, and so many, I mean, British design, you and I were talking about this recently, does seem to be having this moment. And Pentreath, for example, he. He's been touring a little bit here in the US and the fans go crazy for him. But I mean, the same thing with Beata Heyman and others. I mean, Sophie Ashby, I mean, there's this moment going on that so many American designers love the work that the British designers are doing and again, love your publication. And they feel like there's something so different about both the work and how you're showing it to what they're able to get here in the U.S. well.

I think all those people you have talked about have a strong point of view and really work with their clients. And if you think about Beate, she puts such a lot of research into each project and the way she sort of uses historical reference, she's looking at other people, you know, all the time. But the way she incorporates them does bring a point of view and an originality. And I think that's what's exciting about her and Sophie. And then Ben is doing something different. But again, you know, he has a very strong point of view and I think that's interesting.

Yes, yes. And he's quite a colorful character on top of it and. Yes, so he's, he's very fun. And again, I think so many Americans, American homes don't tend to have the bones and the structure of some of these. Great grading.

Exactly. And that really does help. Yes, yes.

So the architecture does quite a bit. You've got such wonderfully high ceilings in your own home.

Yes, so I know that. I mean, in a way I feel, you know, my decorating is pretty simple. It's, you know, we've just got lovely rhythms. I'm lucky.

Yes, you're very fortunate. I'm envious of your very high ceilings. I wonder. Shifting gears a little bit and just talking about a little bit of the news. So Britain had a big throw out the government election and the US has just gone through the same. There's a feeling that just tremendous change and political instability is upon us. And I wonder how you think about the comfort that you might be bringing to a somewhat perhaps audience that's feeling a little bit dislocated or feeling a little bit uneasy and what a shelter magazine can do in a time of. Of instability.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like, yes, we've, you know, since COVID through, you know, the last five years, we really have. We. We've all been having to do that, haven't we? Sort of provider comfort and the creators of our content, we must understand what our audience are sort of going through in whichever way. So I think we feel a responsibility, I suppose, to. To provide an escapism and to be uplifting. And I think we also are very aware of budgets. You know, budgets are tighter and we must kind of reflect that to a certain extent. Obviously, we don't want to dumb down or. But we need to kind of make it possible for people to create a kind of nurturing surrounding for themselves, I suppose.

I think as you were saying, very similar to Covid, where we all became reacquainted with our homes in a way that in many cases it was so interesting. In the early days of COVID I would speak to designers who had clearly not spent any time at home, perhaps didn't even know how their very elaborate kitchen really worked because they were just always jetting off on projects and taking care of things. And I feel with everything going on in the world, people are looking again to a bit of cocooning, a little bit of feeling safe in their space and leaning into that. It's been a bit of a challenging time in the media world. Lots of layoffs and belt tightening and it's been a little bit. I don't know, there's always the feeling of, can publications be asked to do more with less again? Does it feel that way in the hallways where you are?

Not very directly. Actually, I think we have been lucky, is that we've ridden the sort of wave of this huge growing interest in our subject matter and what we write about. So I think that's been really helpful. And, you know, what we are doing is so sort of does lend itself to social media, to TikTok, to growing our audiences. So I feel that we are in a strong position and therefore, and are, you know, still are very much a successful business. I suppose so, yeah. I feel our team has only grown really, in the last few years.

I'm glad to hear that.

Okay, good. So we have been. Yeah, we've been. We haven't felt that, you know, House and Garden is published under license in South Africa, but there's only one of us, so we're quite, you know, we can keep quite tight reins on what we do and how we spend money and can be a bit separate, I suppose, in some ways, but I think more than anything, I think it's just there is an interest in our subject matter and what we're doing and we have a very strong readership, whether it's watching TikTok or a print readership.

Am I going to be seeing a lot of you on TikTok?

Not my personality.

I mean, are you going to be doing dances or how is this going to present itself?

I mean, luckily at the moment, what does really well for us is just scrolling images of our projects and people love it. So in the last year, having gone from zero, we've had 8 million views and that's very simple stuff, doesn't involve anything embarrassing and. But we do want to do more sort of tutorials, how to's but they won't be somebody sitting there telling you how to paint their walls. It will be, you know, we've got to do it in the right way.

Yes.

But I think, you know, this really boring, not boring, but perhaps overused kind of phrase of meeting your audience where they are and.

Right.

You know, we're in a good position to do that really. So. And, but just need to be careful how we do it.

Well and it's so interesting to hear that you're attracting this, this young audience, this 25 to 34 year old audience and this under 40 audience that's coming to you. And it seems like there's a great opportunity and it's always challenging when you want to educate how to do it in a, in a compelling way.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Hatta Bing]

For any generation. How do you.

For any generation to keep people listening. Especially when we're being fed so much everywhere.

Right. Well, exactly, yeah.

To do it, we've got to do it right and be relevant.

So for your 10th anniversary issue that's coming out in just a few weeks. Right. Yeah. Are we going to see any big changes? Are we going to see any look backs over time? I mean.

Yeah, so. Well, I've chosen, I've written about 10 rooms for 10 years, which was actually very difficult because we have four houses in every issue with 12 images. It was a lot of images to sift through. And actually when you kind of take one image out of a project, somehow they relate to all the other, you know, the other rooms. And so actually choosing 10 rooms I found very difficult. But I think they sort of capture a feeling of what we find interesting. All the things I've spoken about really of what we think our readers are interested in. And I think they are useful as a sort of reflection. I don't think they. So that was the other thing is that in one year you might have some really. I probably had 10 rooms that were really sensational and one cancels another out, so I couldn't choose the other. So it felt like, it felt like an impossible task. I nearly gave up on it and then I thought I shouldn't be so pathetic.

Well, and was the idea that you were trying, were you, were you finding 10 rooms that, that really spoke to you?

Yeah, spoke to me and I felt had relevance and were doing something and saying something that I felt relevant.

Yes.

To what makes a good room.

Well, it certainly sounds as though you're thoroughly enjoying your job and your role and you're feeling very challenged and energized and see a lot of opportunity for the brand, as you were saying earlier, to expand in a lot of different areas. There's a lot of different platforms that you can bring yourself to and will be welcomed.

Absolutely. I mean, it's. Yeah, I feel very lucky to be doing this job now. There isn't really a better job I could be doing. And obviously it has changed hugely from what I was kind of first employed to do. And at some moments, that is daunting. And sometimes I think, oh, my God, I don't know if I can do this. But that's actually very rare. And we've got a really brilliant team who also are passionate about their subject matter or matters, because we've obviously got a food editor and a garden center and a travel editor. So I don't really have a need to be daunted. And, yeah, we just make the most of every platform, really. And we now have a WhatsApp channel, which is new and slowly growing and.

So what are you doing with that? Because we've been talking about WhatsApp recently.

Yeah. Again, I mean, I've. It's fairly new to me, but we are. And we haven't done a huge amount of pacing yet, but it's just another way of drawing people to great stories. Especially, as, you know, all the algorithms are changing on Facebook and all of the things that did used to drive traffic so.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I will tell you.

[Hatta Bing]

I mean, look at you, you're. I mean, TikTok, WhatsApp. I mean, you've got your finger on the pulse.

Well, I don't know if it's not just me, that is for sure.

No, I mean, the whole team. I mean, how great that the whole team is finding ways, again, for you to show up in a meaningful way on all of these different platforms. That is the key. And who knows which of these is ultimately going to become. Who knew that Instagram, when we used to take pictures of our lunch or whatever it was originally, who knew that that would become one of the biggest drivers in our industry today.

Yes. And it has made businesses and people and crafts people, I think, Extraordinary.

[Dennis Scully]

Really.

[Hatta Bing]

Yeah.

We're thinking about banning TikTok here in the US so I don't know what that means, but.

No. Well, I don't know either. Maybe just one less. One less.

Exactly. One less beast to feed, as you were referring to earlier, I think. But truthfully, I don't think that'll really happen. But, I mean, they certainly act as if they want to make that happen. Who knows? But it is interesting to see. Well, I'm very much. Looking Forward to the 10 year anniversary issue and congratulations to you on 10 years in your role. And as I say, I rarely talk to someone in the design community that doesn't love your publication, so whatever you're doing, you're doing it right. So congratulations on all of it.

Thank you, Dennis. Well, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you and kind of explore all these things and maybe think about things I probably haven't even thought about until now. So that's all good.

Well, I'm delighted and you're so, you're so kind to make the time and I really appreciate it. I'm thrilled to get to speak with you.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and edited by Fraser McCullough.

[Hatta Bing]

I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and we'll be back with you on Thursday.