How Hendricks Churchill found the perfect blend of design, architecture, history and business

Summary

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Business of Home Podcast

Episode: How Hendricks Churchill Found the Perfect Blend of Design, Architecture, History and Business

Host: Dennis Scully
Guests: Heidi Hendricks & Rafe Churchill
Date: August 25, 2025

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Overview

This episode of the Business of Home podcast dives deep into the creative and business partnership of Heidi Hendricks and Rafe Churchill, the husband-and-wife team behind the acclaimed design and architecture studio, Hendricks Churchill. Host Dennis Scully explores how their distinct upbringings, mutual respect for history, and shared aesthetic sensibilities shaped their approach to design, business operations, and a new venture in hospitality. The conversation spans personal anecdotes, candid business advice, and insights into preserving and renewing architectural heritage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Roots: Building Foundations in Childhood

• Family Homes Built by Fathers
  • Both Heidi and Rafe grew up in houses built by their own fathers, instilling an early appreciation for construction, resourcefulness, and the spirit of making do.
    • Heidi’s father, an artist with little technical know-how, built their home with barter deals and repurposed materials, creating an “emporium” rich in patina and art.
      • ["He just was never daunted by trying to figure something out. Where there was a will, there was a way." - Heidi, 03:36]
      • ["He would fund his project by bartering... Not unlike what my father was doing in good old Woodbury, Connecticut." - Heidi, 04:15]
    • Rafe’s family house was a timber-frame barn rebuilt with his father's construction crew — fueling both ambition and financial stress.
      • ["He used his regular crews and his regular subcontractors... It was seven days a week." - Rafe, 07:05]
      • ["We learned exactly what happens when you live beyond your means like that... The family part is far more important than the square footage of the house." - Rafe, 09:13]

2. Blending Paths: How Heidi & Rafe Came Together, Personally and Professionally

• They grew up in nearby Connecticut towns but only met after college—romantically, in a parking lot, and then through family home projects.
  • ["We met in the parking lot of a liquor store. Just like every great American love story." - Rafe, 19:36]
  • ["I go back and she's wearing these little cutoff shorts and a tank top and black clogs and operating a belt sander. And I was just like, smoking." - Rafe, 21:13]
• Initially, their professional paths were separate: Heidi was in PR for the art world, Rafe ran his construction/design firm. They merged as projects overlapped and clients requested both their inputs.
  • ["I was completely happy doing that... But then I was also pouring through magazines... It didn't take long before I realized this is maybe what I should have been doing all along." - Heidi, 14:20 & 16:00]
  • ["In this new model, it was basically always collaborating... every client benefits from the full package." - Rafe, 10:46 & 13:54]

3. Business Philosophy: Profit Over Revenue & the Value of Trust

• Rafe discusses the hard-won lessons from running a family construction firm — distinguishing revenue from actual profit, and the necessity of clear financial tracking.
  • ["Most important thing was being profitable, which I think is still not a priority for a lot of people, because they don't understand what profit is. They understand what, you know, revenue is, but they don't understand what profit is." - Rafe, 23:35]
  • ["If you don't log your hours correctly, we will not be billing correctly... Working for free is one thing, but when a room full of people are working for free... it's not a sustainable model." - Rafe, 28:19]
• Contractual relationships in architecture/construction are ultimately less valuable than genuine trust between client and builder.
  • ["The secret about contracts... is that the contracts that builders sign with their clients are worthless because the builder cannot afford to defend it." - Rafe, 32:21]
  • ["It's entirely about trust. And that's why you have to be selective, both sides, the client and the builder." - Rafe, 32:21]

4. Design Ethos: Loving History, Choosing Restoration Over New Builds

• Both Heidi and Rafe are aligned in their affection for historical properties and the unique challenges of restoration projects.
  • ["Anything that we've ever bought for our personal use or speculative project is the house that nobody else wanted." - Rafe, 36:23]
• They consciously moved away from new builds in favor of restoring and honoring old structures.
  • ["I'm more focused on the historic projects now." - Rafe, 37:44]

5. Expanding Horizons: Place in Mind Hospitality Venture

• Place in Mind is a new hospitality initiative bringing Hendricks Churchill’s style to a wider audience through unique inns restored with the same reverence as their private projects.
  • ["We're bringing the Hendrix Churchill brand to make it more accessible to more people — in a sense, democratizing it." - Heidi, 42:30]
  • The inaugural property: a historic nine-bedroom inn in Bennington, Vermont, involving local tradespeople and students.
  • ["So Place in Mind is a hospitality group that I am starting with Casey Sunderland... it would ultimately be a place... for fun and an opportunity to do a cool project." - Rafe, 38:59]
• Goal: 40 venues in five to seven years, scaling without sacrificing their unique design ethos or reliance on vintage, storied furnishings.
  • ["I fully expect to have 40 venues in the next five to seven years." - Rafe, 50:39]

6. Brand Identity: "Distinctly American" Design

• Their upcoming book and brand celebrate the American vernacular, especially in New England. Central is preserving authenticity, craftsmanship, and the layered history of spaces.
  • ["Our brand was really built out of our shared love and appreciation for the New England vernacular." - Heidi, 43:48]
  • ["We're after authentic experiences where you can go into one of our environments and it just sort of feels safe, it feels secure, it feels time tested." - Heidi, 45:23]
• Rafe prefers his architectural interventions to be invisible, in service of history and place.
  • ["I want to engage with those properties in a way that is 100% respectful and leaves almost no trace... I'm not entering into these projects to leave my mark in a way that feeds my ego." - Rafe, 46:23]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Parental Ingenuity:
  • "Where there was a will, there was a way." — Heidi Hendricks, on her father's DIY spirit [03:36]
• On Business Sustainability:
  • “If you don’t log your hours correctly, we will not be billing correctly... Working for free is one thing, but when a room full of people are working for free... it’s not a sustainable model.” — Rafe Churchill [28:19]
• On Building Trust:
  • "The contracts that builders sign with their clients are worthless because the builder cannot afford to defend it. ... It's entirely about trust." — Rafe Churchill [32:21]
• On Restoration vs. New Construction:
  • “Anything that we’ve ever bought for our personal use or a speculative project is the house that nobody else wanted.” — Rafe Churchill [36:23]
• On Scaling Hospitality with Integrity:
  • “You can’t own 500 hotels and fill them with unique art and vintage furniture, or so they believe. And that’s where we come in and we are going to do this and we’re going to scale it.” — Rafe Churchill [49:00]
• On Brand Ethos:
  • “[We want] authentic experiences where you can go into one of our environments and it just sort of feels safe, it feels secure, it feels time tested..." — Heidi Hendricks [45:23]
  • "I want to engage with those properties in a way that is 100% respectful and leaves almost no trace." — Rafe Churchill [46:23]
• On Ambition:
  • “I fully expect to have 40 venues in the next five to seven years.” — Rafe Churchill [50:39]

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Timestamps: Key Segments

• [03:05–09:13] – Homebuilding parents; childhood influences
• [10:46–15:13] – Transition from separate careers to professional partnership
• [18:48–22:03] – Their first meeting and evolving collaboration
• [23:35–31:43] – Rafe on running a construction business, profit vs. revenue
• [32:21–35:44] – Challenges with contracts and importance of trust
• [36:23–37:44] – Preference for historic restorations over new builds
• [38:59–43:03] – Origin and goals of Place in Mind hospitality project
• [43:48–47:23] – Defining the Hendricks Churchill brand and aesthetic
• [49:00–53:08] – Vision for scaling Place in Mind, managing ambition
• [53:39–end] – Closing remarks and thank-yous

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Conclusion

This episode gives a rich, candid window into the partnership and ethos of Hendricks Churchill. Heidi and Rafe's journey is a blend of personal story, creative alignment, and hard-won business wisdom — all culminating in a distinct vision for both bespoke design and accessible hospitality. Their meticulous respect for history, commitment to authenticity, and clarity on financial sustainability offer inspiration and practical guidance for designers, entrepreneurs, and anyone passionate about the built environment.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guests this week are Heidi Hendricks and Ralph Churchill, a married couple behind architecture and design studio Hendrix Churchill. Rafe came from a family of builders and was already running a successful firm, but it wasn't until Heidi switched careers from art world PR to interior design that Hendrix Churchill truly came together. Since then, their ability to preserve architectural history while infusing it with a vibrant new life has won them a regular spot on eldacore's A list and earned them recognition throughout the industry. I spoke with Heidi and Raif about why mutual trust is more important than any contract, their new hospitality venture, and why too many firms get obsessed with revenue and forget all about a more important metric, profit. This podcast is sponsored by BlueDOT, Minnesota's premier modern design brand. If you're a pro, you're going to want to know about BlueDOT's newly updated trade program. Members receive 20% off every order, and every day you get a dedicated trade concierge, AKA a real human being who can assist you with product info, samples, ordering and fulfillment. You'll also get early access to new designs and special finishes reserved just for the trade. There's even more, so head over to bluedot.com to learn all about it. That's B L-U D O T.com this podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. If you miss them at Vegas Market, Laloy's newest summer introductions keep design at the forefront. Pieces that are beautiful in your home and ethically crafted. The new collections are handmade in India and goodweave certified, which ensures they come from an ethical and transparent supply chain. See those collections and [e-mail] that's L O L O I rugs.com follow them on Instagram and TikTok at Laloy Rugs to see the rugs from even more angles. And now, on with the show. Am I right that each of you grew up in a home that your fathers had essentially built in roughly the same place? Right. You grew up very, very close to one another, right? In Connecticut?

[Rafe Churchill]

That's right, yeah.

[Heidi Hendricks]

I like to joke that Rafe was the boy next door, but we never met until that summer we graduated college.

[Dennis Scully]

And I want to hear that story. But it seems so unusual to grow up in homes built by your fathers. And when I was reading some of your new book, Heidi, you mentioned that your father had less of the technical skills that one might perhaps want to have to build a home. Is that right?

[Heidi Hendricks]

Yeah. Well, he was an artist through and through, so he just was never daunted by trying to figure something out. Where there was a will, there was a way. So he had answered an ad in the local newspaper that you could buy land for a dollar an acre as long as you had a house built there within a year. And the reason why they needed it built within a year is because the person selling it needed the town to put in a road. And they would only put in the road if there was a house there.

[Dennis Scully]

This is how small the area is that we are talking about.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Yeah. So he had a dollar, and he was like, okay, I can do that. He didn't have many more dollars. But then he just started trying to figure it out how. How he would make the. There is no foundation. He just sort of did a concrete slab. And then he just started framing it. And then he ran out of materials, so he started using those felled trees. And then he started. But he kept the bark on. And, I mean, it's a very organic structure. It was funny because he would start to fund his project by bartering. You know, he was like of that whole bohemian school where you had people like Jackson Pollock, a contemporary, who would trade paintings before he was discovered for groceries. And that's not unlike what my father was doing in good old Woodbury, Connecticut. You know, he would be like, hey, I can do a portrait of your kids, or why don't I do a sign for your diner? And he would just have credit around town from these types of barters and at the hardware store in the lumberyard. So he built this house. It did take longer than a year, but it was our only family home the whole time up until they passed a few years back. And he built it, and my mother moved in shortly after and just furnished it. And it sounds like it was sort of cobbled together, but it. It really wasn't. It was actually. There was definitely a strong aesthetic there that was deeply layered, rich patina, wonderful artwork. Very little of their own was hung on the walls, but just all of their friends or stuff that they would find. And so it was just sort of like this emporium that we sort of took for granted growing up. They had five of us kids running around out in the middle of the woods there. And when I came of age to start having sleepovers in third, fourth grade, I would go to these people's homes. And I'm like, wait a minute, what, where's your fish pond? In the living room floor.

[Dennis Scully]

So your sense of reality might been a little bit altered from what you.

[Rafe Churchill]

Grew up with and what you discovered.

[Dennis Scully]

The rest of the world was like, which must have been disappointing for you when you got out and discovered other people's homes. It must have come up pretty short.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Well, you know, as a proper tween, I was embarrassed by my family home.

[Dennis Scully]

Right through that period as well.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Yeah.

[Rafe Churchill]

I don't know, Dennis, those other houses had central plumbing and electricity and air conditioning. Oh, that tv, you know.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Running water.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so. So then Rafe. So, so tell me about the. The house that you grew up in. So your father, you're multi generational builder family, right?

[Rafe Churchill]

Well, I think we moved like seven, eight, nine times when I was a kid. You know, always renovating a house or. And then selling it. So the last house that my father did. So the last house was this large barn house. Right. So it was a timber frame barn that was taken down and then rebuilt or erected on this new foundation. And he took a year off from work, so it's kind of ambitious. Right. So I don't know anything about the finances, but he used his regular crews and his regular subcontractors, some of which were family, some of, some were friends, some were guys on the payroll. And it was seven days a week. And he accomplished a lot in that year. And we eventually moved in in the meantime. There were five of us, my mom, dad and three boys, one of which was eight years younger than me. So it was ambitious. But it was a timber frame, it was an old barn, it had solar panels on the roof and. And I worked on it for a little while. That didn't go particularly well.

[Dennis Scully]

Now which part, Rafe? I mean.

[Rafe Churchill]

Well, the boss was really difficult to work for, so he had slightly unreasonable expectations for a 12 year old boy. And so my brother did it, my brother stuck it out for the summer and I opted out and went to work somewhere else. But yeah, you know, it's. You learn a lot about your parents when they take on a task like building the family house. You learn a lot about their, their goals as individuals and also their marriage and you know, who excels at what. And you just see a lot of things going on that other kids don't.

[Dennis Scully]

See and at such a young age. How did you process that? So what did it reveal to you and how did you.

[Rafe Churchill]

It revealed that maybe they shouldn't have been building that house. It was a stressful time, right? Financially stressful. My Father was away. You know, he was gone at work seven days a week. And these were long days. You know, he was still young, so he had it in him. And then once it was finished, my mother loved it because she got to furnish it, which was a. Which was a great opportunity for her because she enjoyed that. But ultimately, you know, they were living beyond their means, and that house was a big step in that direction. And I think that the most important thing that my brother and I learned, and maybe the youngest brother, Ben, he wasn't old enough to really remember it, but Seth and I learned exactly what happens when you live beyond your means like that and when you're putting so much on the line. And it's a lesson that we try to carry with us today because the family part is far more important than the square footage of the house.

[Dennis Scully]

I want to give listeners a little bit of a sense of a timeline with each of you working individually and then realizing, oh, why aren't we really working together in a much more official way and starting your firm roughly eight years ago, let's say. But I feel like part of that story is it the Litchfield house. That was part of it.

[Rafe Churchill]

I had been partners in a construction company with my brother that then started to shift towards design, build at least my half of the company. My brother was still working for numerous architects and doing construction, business as usual. And then I started to create more of a hybrid. So as I moved in that direction, you know, we had some pretty good opportunities that the first two major opportunities were. One was a townhouse in Brooklyn, New York, and the other was a farmhouse, a new construction in Sharon, Connecticut. And so we started that project, and that was moving along. And the owners also wanted to start their country house. So that started. So because we were doing these two projects at the same time, we spent a good amount of time together. And they were living in an Airstream camping trailer on the property of the country house. But during that time that they were coming around, they were taking it all in, right? So they were like, oh, you know, look at this place, Heidi. You did this. And then they would look at everything, and then one day they just said, hey, Heidi, you want to help out with the townhouse project down in Brooklyn? So then Heidi got involved with that, and then that just kind of snowballed. But anyway, fast forward, there we are coexisting with these two separate firms, and we're overlapping on more than half of my projects, I think, at that point. But my clients more frequently, more often would say, is Heidi available. We'd love to talk to Heidi about this or talk to Heidi about that. So in my mind, it became a good idea to mer to officially merge the two firms for a number of reasons. One, you've got a household running two separate businesses, plus together, you know, the sum of those parts, although only two parts, you know, is so much better than kind of cobbing it together, like, you know, taking bits and pieces each when convenient. So in the. In this new model, it was basically always collaborating. And not every client goes for the full package, but every client benefits from the full package, which I think is the most important part. You know, some people, some people may not want to commit to so much up front, meaning, you know, two contracts. But, you know, Heidi gets involved in our projects. Early space planning, use of space, rough furniture plans which then inform the lighting plans. And without those early conversations, there's, well, there's a lot of change orders. That's when things happen later.

[Dennis Scully]

Sure.

[Rafe Churchill]

And every electrician's going to tell you, oh, the decorator showed up or the interior designer showed up. Now we're moving lights. So we don't have that problem because we talk about this early in the process.

[Dennis Scully]

And I want to know what the whole Heidi is. I want to understand the whole Heidi package, what you get for that, because sign me up, I think, for that. But tell me, Heidi, about your.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Yeah, I'll back it up a little bit. So at the time, I was working as a publicist for Art and Architecture News, and we were based. I was working for Ruderfin, and before that I was working for art museums in the communication department. And I was completely happy doing that. I loved it, especially because we got to work on some really amazing projects with architects. Starchitects, we called them, like Frank Gehry, Diller, Scofidio back then eventually became Renfro, Daniel Liebskin. I mean, really amazing projects. And when I wasn't at work, I was at home with Rafe, where we would be buying little fixer upper cott that we would be working on ourselves. I mean, my first Christmas present from Rafe back then was my own tool belt where he had embroidered my name in it.

[Rafe Churchill]

Oh.

[Heidi Hendricks]

So we would cash our paychecks and we'd go to Home Depot and then we'd get to work on these little fixer uppers. And each time we would finish it, we would then sell it, and then we'd be in the market for something with a slightly higher price point because we would do quite well with the turnaround. So When I wasn't working, I was just obsessing over, you know, learning everything from Rafe about how to build. But then I was also pouring through magazines like World of Interiors and El Decor and Architectural Digest, and I never even realized just how obsessed I was with it. And then when our daughter was born, I had left the firm because I just wanted to be home with this little creature. And I couldn't imagine traveling as much as I had been. And that's when I met Matt and Jesse while Rafe was designing their homes. And that's when they started spending more time in our home and said, geez, we really like the vibe you have going on here. Can you come do it for us? And I was like, yeah, sure, let's try it. This seems like it's going to be fun. I still marvel over how much that learning curve wasn't drastic. You know what I mean? As a publicist, you learn how to create a budget and stick to it. You know, your way around a spreadsheet. You know, how to, like, you know, channel ideas and work towards a greater goal. And then nights and weekends, I was working with Rafe on, you know, floor plans and, you know, lighting and paint and tile. And so really, there were just a few more technical things I had to figure out along the way. But that and my innate ability as most designers for spatial planning and putting things together in your. It moved along pretty, pretty easily. And it didn't take long before I realized this is maybe what I should have been doing all along, because to this day, it doesn't feel like work. It just feels like just who I am and what we do and, oh, my God, you're going to pay me, too.

[Rafe Churchill]

Maybe we can edit that part out, huh?

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. We don't want to make her sound too eager to take on projects, because I know that's not the case.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Yeah, I mean, it's sort of. I will say that one of the other things. Rafe's joke reminds me, one of the other reasons why it was so successful for us to merge is that he has a really strong business sense that I struggle with. I love being in the trenches of the design work and the process and moving the progress along, but then to also be thinking holistically about a business and a business plan and the future of that business, that eludes me.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, listen. As it does so many. And that's why it's so challenging, and that's why, in many ways, it's remarkable that we even ask that of creatives to say, oh, by the way, you Also have to effectively run the business side of this operation. Right as your business gets going. And I want to talk to Raf about his business sense. But first, take me back. We tell the story about how the two of you are together professionally. You grew up in practically the same place and then didn't meet really, or I mean, didn't get together until much later in life. Tell me how that happened.

[Heidi Hendricks]

We were both living in our family homes after college. After graduating college, Rafe was on his way to grad school and I was on my way to New York City by way of couch surfing, trying to find a place to live. So during that summer, I was home working for my parents business, which was. They made hand carved gold leaf signs. So I would often be doing that out in the backyard. And Rafe was brought by our house one day because our house, as we mentioned earlier, was sort of like this very organic job site that some project was always going on there, whether, you know, rock wall, fountains were going up or.

[Rafe Churchill]

But that's not where we met.

[Dennis Scully]

Oh, wait, there's a deeper story that we're gonna get.

[Rafe Churchill]

We met in the parking lot of a liquor store. Just like every great American love story.

[Dennis Scully]

There'S the American story we've been waiting for. Yes. Ron Howard directs the story of.

[Rafe Churchill]

Yeah, Ron Howard would like this. I'm hanging out in the parking lot of a liquor store with three guys that I grew up with. Jeff, Jim o', Dave, Brandt, Mac Paoli. And this white Jeep comes driving in way too fast, bouncing in every direction. And there are these two kids driving it. One of them I knew, Heidi's brother, Guy. And then there was this gorgeous woman, young woman, driving this thing. And I look at Paoli and I'm like, who's that? And he and Mac, and I've. I'd known Mac for many years and he's just like Churchill. Way out of your league.

[Dennis Scully]

You could never.

[Rafe Churchill]

And I was like, really? Really? Okay. So I went over, introduced myself. Heidi was wearing a Syracuse sweatshirt, which. Which was because she had just gradu. Syracuse. And I was about to go to Syracuse. I had a fellowship to study sculpture to get an MFA there. So what an opportunity, right? She's wearing the sweatshirt and I've got a fellowship. Like it's a home run.

[Dennis Scully]

You'll drop that on her.

[Rafe Churchill]

My sex appeal was like a couple clicks up. So, you know, everybody played it cool and I pretended I was normal. It was all I. I thought we had a nice connection. But then eventually I got invited to go up to her parents house. And check out this chimney that was being built, which is legit. Like, someone said, hey, man, you got to go check out this chimney that Brett's building or Ghee's building or. And so I went up there and then one of the guys is like, oh, Heidi's out back. You guys just met. And I was like, oh, okay, let's go back. And I go back and she's like, wearing these little cutoff shorts and a tank top and black clogs and operating a belt sander. And I was just like, smoking.

[Dennis Scully]

This is the woman for me. We're taking a quick break to remind you about Laloy. For over 20 years, Laloy has made its name not only in home textiles at all price points, but but also in customer service. Members of the trade have dedicated laloy sales representatives to answer their needs with an easy to use sample program and fast shipping directly from Laloy's warehouses. Learn [e-mail] that's L O L O Y rugs.com for an inside look at all things Laloyloy, follow Laloyloyloyloy rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now back to the show. So the rest is history after that, you come together and get married. But as we were just describing, it took a while for the two of you to bring your firms together in a meaningful way, even though you were working together on plenty of projects, but in a. In a divided way. And Rafe, coming back to the business sense and how you approach the business, because as you were saying earlier, and we've talked about how you came up a family of builders, you and your brother had this pretty busy firm and you had a pretty big staff. If I recall before you, right, Seth.

[Rafe Churchill]

And I were partners in a construction company called Churchill Brothers. And. And at the height, we had like 28 or 30 employees. And yeah, it was profitable and we had great work and great opportunities and turned down a few projects because we knew what we were capable of at the time and we knew to be careful. You know, we had seen. So my father was a builder, my uncle, my grandfather, all of their cousins were in the trades. So I grew up at a dinner table, unfortunately, listening to conversations about the reality of owning a small construction company or being a carpenter with a pickup truck. My father would not get paid often by people. And eventually we were all partners in a construction company. And that's when I really got a good look at how he was running his business. And a lot of things started to become more obvious when we got into business with our father. We realized that there had to be significant changes in the way that he was not only estimating projects, but then running them and billing and tracking expenses and timelines. And that was just out of sheer necessity. That was, you know, based in fear, really. Right. Because if you're building back then a $3 million house, you know, was a tremendous amount of money. It could ruin you. Right. As a small business owner. So, yeah, I spent the, you know, the Next, you know, 25 years or 20 years after that partnership prioritizing the responsibility of running the business. But the most important thing was being profitable, which I think is still not a priority for a lot of people, because they don't understand what profit is. They understand what, you know, revenue is, but they don't understand what profit is. So we did well in construction, and I took that business model and when I went. When I left the construction industry and started my own design firm, which initially was a design build firm, I had those financial models built and I knew how to run a company. And so that, that first design firm was profitable basically after the first month, the first billing cycle. So, you know, as a business owner and a designer, it's hard to separate the two, and it's hard for the two to coexist. I would recommend to anybody that, who wants to get into the industry that your. Your number one goal after doing, like, you know, your best work and building that network of clients and vendors is to get somebody on board who, who's got some skin in the game that is financially literate. Like, they're the one who's going to tell you there's a hole in the boat. Yeah, you don't want to find out about the hole in the boat. You want someone to point it out to you. So that person needs to have skin in the game, which essentially means they're a partner.

[Dennis Scully]

So is that how you approached it? So you, you brought someone in who had skin in the game? And tell me, tell me what you mean by about people being focused on revenue versus focused on profit, because there.

[Rafe Churchill]

Is a big difference. So to answer your first question or assumption, no, we didn't bring somebody in who had skin in the game.

[Dennis Scully]

But that's my advice for others.

[Rafe Churchill]

Let me make that clear, because my.

[Dennis Scully]

Advice for other people is YouTube, man, I am fried.

[Rafe Churchill]

Dennis.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Yeah.

[Rafe Churchill]

There was a point.

[Dennis Scully]

This is the experience of not doing that, talking to you.

[Rafe Churchill]

Yeah, there was a point when I, you know, I was say that I hit the wall. It was too much. Yeah. We hired Someone a few years ago and he was an employee and he still works for Hendrix Churchill and is involved in other projects that are fairly significant. And we've learned a lot from each other and we've learned a lot from mistakes that were made in the past.

[Dennis Scully]

And the revenue versus profit. Help me understand that.

[Rafe Churchill]

Well, we just send an invoice out for $50,000. That probably sound exciting to a young designer, right? To send out a fifty thousand dollar invoice for the month of September. But what they're not really remembering, and I see it every day, whether they're plumbers or designers or architects or hairdressers or barbers, is you send an invoice or a bill and you get paid. That's wonderful. But that's revenue. Well, now you got to pay all your expenses and you got to pay yourself and you got to pay taxes. And it'd be nice to have some cash in your tax savings account, in your operating account and your escrow account where you keep customer deposits. And next thing you know, there's not a lot of money left. So you have to determine how much of your time is being utilized towards profits and if it's not profitable time, what's it being spent on. And you have to model that every single week, not every quarter, but every week. You have to look at the billable hours, you have to track the time accurately. And this was the biggest struggle in building a company is nobody wants to hear every week. If you don't log your hours correctly, we will not be billing correctly. And there's a good chance we will be under billing. It's most likely in that case that we are under billing, which means we are leaving money behind and working for free. Working for free is one thing, but when a room full of people are working for free and expect the owners of the company to still pay them, it's not a sustainable model. Not even close. And you know, we know a lot of designers of all ages and all experience. And I think that one of the most consistent problems is that they don't prioritize the modeling of their business financially because they fear that doesn't represent them accurately. Right. Because they love what they do for work, they love their clients, they love the projects. And they're. And they're living, they're alive, right? They're able to borrow money because they're sole proprietors in the business. The books don't have to be clearly separated from personal draw to, you know, like, I mean, they should be. But the reality is that a Lot of people exist nearly commingling their funds. And. And that is not a business model that you can sell, and that's not a business model that you can take on partners with because your finances are not accurately represented. And a lot of people, their companies are devalued because they're not actually aware of what they're making. They're most definitely not aware of their profits.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so with your dad, Rafe, do you think that he. So many big designers have told me that one of the challenges with working for very wealthy clients is they have a lot of lawyers. And often these designers say, I was always fighting for the last 10% of a job unless I had really made sure I was getting paid before it was all really finished. And I get that. And is your sense that your dad had a bunch of bills that just never got paid because at the end of the job, the people said, oh, we're done. Sorry, see you.

[Rafe Churchill]

Yeah. I would say that his paperwork wasn't thorough and that he probably wasn't as communicative as he should have been. And, you know, there's a great movie. Mr. Blanding builds his Dream house, which is a playbook of. This is what's about to happen. Here it comes. Oh, my God. I can see it. Oh, God, there it is. And then they move on to the next one. And, yeah, it's all about communication, and that communication should be in writing. Look, builders are one of the most important parts of the entire process and the backbone of the industry, because without them, there would be nothing to decorate and there would be things wouldn't leave the paper. But they're also an easy target. Right? They're easily blamed for some of the problems. They are blamed because they can be. Because there isn't evidence to the contrary. Right. Like emails or. You know, it feels like it's been around forever, but of course it hasn't been. If you don't have that paper trail, then it's fair game. Right? It's an opportunity. And everyone knows that. The secret about contracts that nobody really wants to talk about is that the contracts that builders sign with their clients are worthless because the builder cannot afford to defend it. They really cannot. Whereas the client can easily prove negligence or a lack of approvals or whatever. So it's entirely about trust. And that's why you have to be selective, both sides, the client and the builder. The architect needs to be very careful who they align themselves with, both with clients and with builders. And I think that that is something that you don't hear enough about people love the opportunity to work for somebody who can afford them. It's not always the right client, though, right? It's not always the right person because it does affect your brand. I mean, if we're talking about business like the. The windows that you choose to put in a house, the builder you use to install them, and the client that you work with to develop that project all impact your brand. And your brand is really the most important thing, because without it, you won't be in business in five years. And that's stuff that doesn't really come up in conversations when starting a new business, when you hear people focus on the low bidder. So that's why we're talking to that guy, because he's the low bidder. Okay, let's all just say that out loud again, Right? And remember that in the ninth month, when things are getting a little trickier. Yeah. Everybody's got to be there for the right reason. And low bidder is not the right reason.

[Dennis Scully]

In that same context, being selective about your clients and really knowing who the right people are. We talked recently about finding this client that understands the kind of homes that you want to create. And I got the sense. Well, not the sense. You very directly indicated to me that you were not keen to do a lot of new builds these days because that's not the direction that you want to go in, or that's not the kind of work that you want to be doing. Tell me about that.

[Rafe Churchill]

When you draw the new house that's on paper and you look at it, you know what it's going to look like, because it is literally on paper. And then you step back and there it is, assuming everything is done as it's supposed to be. But when your client buys the house that nobody in their right mind would ever buy, the house that's been Falling down for 10 years, nobody's really sure that you're going to pull that off. So those projects are challenging and they are, at times unpredictable. And they bring you. They bring me, anyway, the most joy when they are complete. Because anything that we've ever bought for our personal use or a speculative project is the house that nobody else wanted. And the house that I'm sitting in today is the house that we did about seven years ago. Nobody wanted it. Nobody wanted it. We bought it. And, oh, so many people wanted it. Oh, I was going to buy that house. Oh, I was going to do that. Wish you had. Because, like, the thing just sat there forever. But, yeah, so I'm more focused on the historic Projects. Now.

[Dennis Scully]

We'Re taking a quick break to talk about Blue Dot's new trade program. Designers receive exclusive finishes, early access to product launches, and a 20% discount on every order. No minimums required. A dedicated trade concierge is there to help with quotes, samples, and getting things done right. It's smart, modern support for how you really work. Learn [e-mail] that's B L U D O T dot com. And now back to the show. I want to talk about another direction that you're moving in, which is this Place in Mind hospitality business, which I'm really eager to share with people and talk more about and hear how you're thinking about it and making it happen. And we talked a little bit about the seminary in Bennington, if I recall. But let's tell people what place in mind is and what the thinking behind it is.

[Rafe Churchill]

So Place in Mind is a hospitality group that I am starting with Casey Sunderland, who is the managing director at Hendricks Churchill, and he is the person we referenced earlier in the conversation who came in to help run the business, and he proved to be very good at it. So he's been with us almost three years. And so there was a point when, you know, Heidi and I have done speculative projects. We've bought and sold houses that we've lived in, and that's a lot of fun. And I need something else, right? I need another project. And I'm very involved with Bennington College. I went there and graduated in 91, and we have two kids there now. So, you know, I spent a lot of time there. I'm friends with trustees, and a lot of us go back and visit and there's nowhere to stay. And so I wanted to buy a building up in Bennington, Vermont, to offer to friends, family, alumni, trustees, prospective parents, all of that. And we would rent it out, but it would ultimately be a place, you know, for fun and also an opportunity to do a cool project. So we bought it. So Heidi and I bought that property. And then as we were starting to, like, talk it through, things started to become a little more clear. And then Casey, who we mentioned earlier, who's now my partner on this other venture, he came up and we were just hanging out and looking at everything and talking, and it became probably a little more clear to him because he's removed a little, but he's like, well, that's, you know, this is everything that is that you enjoy. And the two of us were like, this is like a hospitality. You're creating a hotel. Yeah, yeah, I guess so, so anyway, the point is, is that I'm at a point in my career, 30 years in, I'm 55, and, you know, Heidi and I will continue to collaborate for, for quite a while. And I am now taking on fewer architectural projects because I am shifting a bit away from that usual workload that I had of seven, eight projects a year. Now I'm down to like one or I stagger them. So it's like one and a half. So that works well for Hendrix Churchill. But this new venture is Place In Mind. And the seminary that Heidi and I bought is now a property under the ownership of Place In Mind. And that is going to be a nine bedroom inn. It's located nine minutes from Bennington College and 20 minutes from Williams College in Old Bennington, Vermont, which is arguably the most charming village green in the entire state. And we're having a blast. And so I get to go up there and dust off my tools and swing a hammer and renovate this with some of the local tradespeople. And I'm also employing Bennington College students and other students to work alongside me and training them in not just design, but also construction. And there are other lessons along the way, I'm sure. So it's a lot of fun.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Essentially, though, I think it's worth reiterating that what we're trying to do with Place In Mind is Hendricks Churchill will always be the architecture and interior designers for these properties. And in effect, we're bringing the Hendrix Churchill brand to make it more accessible to more people, in a sense, democratizing it. So you can live in one of these environments for a couple of nights for a couple hundred dollars.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. And I'm so glad you pointed that out, Heidi, because I remember when we spoke about this earlier, it was this notion that, listen, many people are going to see your incredible work and never be able to afford to have you build a house for them or have access to you in this way. And this is a way for a lot of people to, as you were saying earlier, spend a few nights in a space that is a real Hendrik Churchill space. And I wonder, thinking about your brand and your book that's coming out, this distinctly American book and looking at some of these projects, how do you articulate what your brand and what your sensibility is all about?

[Heidi Hendricks]

Yeah, so our brand was really built out of our shared love and appreciation for the New England vernacular. And also, you know, a lot of the New England vernacular of these historic homes was crafted from skilled carpenters and tradespeople. And you know, there might have been architects involved, but really it was just sort of passed on knowledge that, you know, these carpenters gathered from apprenticeships and then doing a lifelong of learning and then bringing it to the next next property. And that's what always spoke to Rafe and I, even back in our 20s when we first met, we were always very much aligned in what we were attracted to, whether it was spending the day at Hancock, Shaker Village, roaming around the buildings, or just driving around looking at old houses. So a lot of that informs our aesthetic to this day. And one of the reasons why we called the book Distinctly American is because so much of what we're doing right now is a celebration of this aesthetic that's inherently uniquely American. And it seems to be within New England. But we've been doing a lot of driving lately around the country, especially down south and into Texas and just sort of exploring. And wherever you go, it's the local vernacular that still piques our curiosity the most and I think tells you the most about the history of the land. But as far as like our design ethos, I think we are after authentic experiences where you can go into one of our environments and it just sort of feels safe, it feels secure, it feels time tested, and it feels like it's not going to be outdated in the next 10, 20 years even. We want you to embrace the marks of wear and tear as the rug gets threadbare. Just own it. It's okay. Unless you're worried that you're going to be tripping on it. You don't even need to patch it. It's just the history we're creating environments that just. Just really want to not only show a record of history, but record your history and how you can live there going forward.

[Rafe Churchill]

Well, as far as the architecture side of things goes, and you know, my. My preference with the historic properties is I would say that I want to engage with those properties in a way that is 100% respectful and leaves almost no trace. I don't want it to be obvious I was there. I don't want someone to be, oh, that, oh, that's a Rafe Churchill project. Like, if. If that is happening, I would like to know why. Because I was a hundred percent dedicated to the historical precedent of that property and the regional architecture. Because I'm not entering into these projects to leave my mark in a way that feeds my ego. It's all about creating an environment and an experience.

[Dennis Scully]

And it sounds as though so much of place in mind in staying with that is resuscitating. Bringing these, these structures back to life, back to, if they had former glory, then restoring that, but keeping it very true. Not to make it a brand new space, in other words.

[Rafe Churchill]

Exactly right. And the interior design and the selection of artwork are just as important as how we treat the existing building and how we honor the history of the building. So place in Mind properties, they will be exclusively designed by Hendrix Churchill, which, you know, it's more than just convenient. It makes good sense because it will deliver consistent work and it will be done with a team of people that have been working together for a couple of decades. So it's a great transition in that way. Furnishings wise, the goal is to not have a sense of new furnishings. You don't want the, you know, lamps or rugs or tables or chairs to jump out as, oh, oh, I saw, you know, like, they got that here. They got. It's not about where we got or how much it cost. It's. Does it contribute to the story of the house? Does it contribute to our goals? And, you know, if, if we find, you know, an old sofa and like, it's not perfect, there's some, you know, wear on the upholstery. I love that, you know, because it creates an environment. And we've all gone into, you know, hotels that are, you know, highly rated. People love them. You're on, you know, waiting, waiting, waiting to get in and then. And it's super expensive and you go. And it's an experience in itself. And there's no doubt that it's, that it's operating at a high level. However, everything in the room is new and when they're finished with that, there will be another new piece of furniture to replace it. And, you know, imagine those furnishings as vintage. I mean, it's almost like an orchestra, you know, like the furniture has to contribute and each piece of furniture plays off the other, and that's what Heidi does. But the secret to that sauce is that it has a history and that they play off of each other. And that, I think, is the secret to the success. And, you know, the big challenge, I think, in the hospitality industry is scaling, because if you don't scale your business, they're not going to make any money. And they're ultimately going to wonder why they're focusing so much on five hotels when in fact they want to focus on 500. You can't own 500 hotels and fill them with unique art and vintage furniture, or so they believe. And that's where we come in and we are going to do this and we're going to scale it.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so how big do you imagine this getting?

[Rafe Churchill]

I mean, I fully expect to have 40 venues in the next five to seven years.

[Dennis Scully]

Are you ready for that, Heidi? Are you ready for that? I mean, that's a.

[Heidi Hendricks]

We're all.

[Rafe Churchill]

That's a lot. Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

All right, so that's. So that's ambitious. That's a very ambitious.

[Rafe Churchill]

It's an ambitious goal for a new business. But we have a good team in place and we're building our advisory board and everybody's hungry. But back to the comment. And believe me, I've heard this, Rafe, that's a. That's ambitious. Raf, you just said 40 projects, or I should say, you just said 40 hotels, which in my mind is 40 projects. Right, right. Over five years will be conservative. Right. So five years, 40. That's eight projects a year. I've been doing that for 30 years.

[Dennis Scully]

But are these hotels that are going to have restaurants and all? I mean, so, I mean, that's the thing.

[Rafe Churchill]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

It's one thing to build a house, then to have. Right. To have. To your point about it being a service industry, the taking care of people, and I was visiting some people just recently who opened a little inn in Maine, and they were already having second thoughts about it, frankly, and they've only had a few guests so far.

[Rafe Churchill]

So.

[Dennis Scully]

They were reconsidering the whole thing because the people come to stay and then, I don't know, they want. Want toast all the time.

[Rafe Churchill]

They do.

[Dennis Scully]

They want whatever they want. Right.

[Rafe Churchill]

Sometimes they want help with the remote control.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. So I know it's just.

[Rafe Churchill]

Now, Dennis, I mentioned earlier that I have a partner. Right. So. So, you know, we have our, our, you know, this. Casey does this, I do that. And we have a great advisory board who have experience in the industry. And so when I, when I talk about place in Mind, I talk about real estate design and construction and interiors. My goals are 40 hotels in five to seven years. That's eight projects a year. And totally doable. Totally doable.

[Dennis Scully]

For your side of that ledger and.

[Rafe Churchill]

The operations with, with the team we have, I'm not at all concerned.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. Yeah. I've thoroughly enjoyed speaking with you both. I thank you so much for your. For your time. I'm looking forward to a physical copy of the beautiful book. And I congratulate you on the labor to make that possible. Excited for Place in Mind, a very aggressive, ambitious goal for the expansion of that operation. But I'm. But I feel confident that this group can do it. So I look forward to seeing and hearing more about that. But again, thank you both so much.

[Heidi Hendricks]

Thank you, Dennis. It was a real pleasure.

[Rafe Churchill]

Thanks, Dennis.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insight community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next time.

[Rafe Churchill]

Week.