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Business of Home Podcast
How Homes & Gardens' brand director is pivoting in the age of AI
00:51:44
Sarah Spiteri, global brand director of Homes & Gardens and Livingetc, shares a look at the path ahead for two iconic British magazines
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- [00:04]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Sarah Spiteri, the global brand director behind British shelter magazines. Homes and gardens and living, etc. Living etc is a modern creation founded in the late 1990s to focus on contemporary style. But Homes and Gardens is an English institution dating back to 1919. After an ownership change, Sarah was tasked with revitalizing the print editions while growing the digital audience. She's been hard at work keeping both titles vital in a challenging media environment. I spoke with Sarah about the surprising fact that the majority of her online audience was is American, why she wants to democratize the British design scene, and why, despite being an iconic British magazine, Homes and Gardens is open to publishing great design from anywhere in the world. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. Laloy is headed to High Point market with new collections from Amber Lewis, Bridget Romanic and the launch of a new partner. They'll also have new Laloi collections, plus one of a kind vintage rugs and accessories. Make an in person or virtual appointment to see it all@loloi rugs.com that's l o l o I rugs.com and don't forget to follow Eloi Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. This podcast is sponsored by Roe Furniture and Krypton, where performance meets design as your domestic custom upholstery specialists. Roe's trade program offers beautiful crypton fabrics, complimentary samples, concierge service and freight included delivery. Order custom pieces online anytime. It's Rowe on your schedule. Join today@rowfurniture.com join. And now on with the show. Sarah, tell me how you first came.
- [02:28]
B
Into this, into this industry.
- [02:30]
C
Oh, well, so my background was actually English literature, so I studied English at Edinburgh University and from that naturally thought hey, maybe I want to be a journalist and did a magazine journalism masters, did a couple of internships before, worked at wallpaper for a while, things like that, sort of short term in the days of sort of six months placements, I think I did a couple of those and then decided to do a magazine journalism masters. And through that I got my first role working at Grand Designs magazine which was, you know, really lovely, really small team. And it blended what I'd had as a personal hobby, which was a love of art, design and interiors, which is something that I've always loved organically. My parents always have beautiful houses in terms of lovely and very homey and beautifully done. And so I'd always had appreciation for that but never really taken it into a career or thought of it as a career. But then working at Grand Design is obviously a lot more architectural and much more about building really. But that sort of made me realize that perhaps I could blend this passion for words and language and editing with a visual, more aesthetic route. So did that. I've worked there for a couple of years. It was a wonderfully small team which meant progress was, you know, fast. Did that for a few years and then applied to, wrote to the editor at Living Etc and said, I think I, you know, I think I must have been about 24 and said, I love Living Etc. Let me know if there's ever any vacancies. I think what you're doing is really amazing. And she said, replied almost on the same day, said, somebody's just resigned, can you come in for an interview? So it was one of those serendipitous moments. Yeah. Where I, you know, there wasn't a job vacancy. There wasn't. It was just a case of I emailed her at the right time and came in, met the editor and have been working across Living Et Cetera and Homes and Gardens for the following 15 plus years. And I've done different roles at different times. So I started, as I say, on Living Etc as Features Editor, writing about kitchens and bathrooms and design ideas and interviewing experts and very much within that space, long form features. And then I moved across to Homes and Gardens in a sort of, I think it was associate editor role where I was really running the decorating team. And then I moved back to Living Et cetera for a bit and there's the sort of flip flop between the two. Obviously, you know, that's the great thing about having these sort of multi brand publishing houses. By the time we were IPC Media, then we became Time Inc. And then we became TI Media and then we became Future in 2020. So lots of change, lots of new owners riding the rollercoaster of media across my favorite brands, which are rather like my second children.
- [05:22]
B
Well, I'm so glad that you feel that way about them. Let's tell people. Not everyone might be familiar with Homes and Gardens and Living, et cetera and what they're both about.
- [05:32]
C
So let's start with Homes and Gardens. So you know, we are the UK's original interiors magazine founded in 1919. So you know, very long heritage and really we were a product of post war Britain. So we launched off the back of the end of the First World War. So that's such an amazing archive and sort of, it's a. The magazine's a kind of a living history of how Britain decorates, renovates, creates gardens, entertains. And you know, actually when we had our 100 year anniversary, we had such a great time going through the archive and pulling out some incredible headlines from the like 101 uses of electricity or 5 ways to decorate your air raid shelter. A couple of my favorites that have always.
- [06:14]
B
Yeah.
- [06:15]
C
So, you know, obviously that's our path and we've changed a lot over that time and today I'd say our content spans that kind of layered, soulful interiors. We're very much about expert decorating ideas, inspirational gardens, kind of entertaining and sort of heritage. That's very much kind of what we're there for. And we sort of known for celebrating designers, but kind of from every state at every stage. So whether those are global names or they're new talent, we talk a lot, right, about the sort of decline of media. But actually looking at our last year, we've kind of had the biggest audience of any UK interiors media brand in history. You know, we've had across all our platforms, actually. Our audience is growing and yes, we're innovating by the platforms, but it does feel like an exciting time and I think that scope to meet people where they are on the different platforms feels actually very exciting and feels positive as opposed to, I think, what can become a bit of a negative narrative around media. So I think the US is interesting for us because we have seen incredible traction in the US from an audience point of view. We know our content resonates. So whether that's growth in print sales in Barnes and Noble or huge digital audience. So surprisingly, perhaps 70% of our website audience web traffic is us. So it's, you know, the scale for us actually is in the us, which is incredibly exciting. There's obviously such synergy between the US and uk, but also really exciting differences. And I think we can speculate all day long about whether or not the US market responds to us, because there's a bit of a British thing, I'm not sure that's homes and gardens. We have a great US team now as well, which has obviously helped us establish. We have great couple of market editors based in New York and a US based editorial director called Anna Last, who comes from a kind of Martha Stewart Food 52 background. So she's bringing a lot of that lovely kind of lifestyle pedigree as well, to our content. So that all feels exciting and quite positive for us. Now, living, etc, it's the younger sister, so more like 30 years or 40 years rather than 100 and however many years, but pretty legendary in terms of the original contemporary design disruptor. Right. It was kind of the first brand that really celebrated the Hilo mix that, you know, with a kind of brand that takes a fashion sensibility. So it's very much about, kind of, you want your home to reflect your personality and it's very much, you know, it's a style statement and we're about trends and we're about design in a much more design way than when homes and gardens are about decorating, the background of living, et cetera. We were born in the 90s and that was obviously the kind of boom of modern design in the uk. Right. It was kind of right when design was becoming part of the vernacular. Living etc was very much rode that wave and it kind of brought that energy and that sort of brought, I guess, contemporary design to the UK mainstream, so to speak, whilst being very forward looking. So living etc for, as I said, a younger, younger sister, it's also for a slightly younger audience and it's much more urban, equally affluent. You know, both of these audiences are very affluent and you know, we speak to both the consumers, but also the trade, we both, you know, with both brands. But yeah, we always think of kind of the sassy younger sister. It's living, et cetera.
- [09:36]
B
Well, and does the sassy younger sister dream of one day becoming. I mean, does the living, et cetera? We're always trying to think, are they reading these younger publications now and then they're going to come to Homes and Gardens and, and want that kind of lifestyle in 10 years or something.
- [09:57]
C
It's such a good question, Dennis, because I feel like I am like the living embodiment of this. I think as I've got older, I've got so much more pattern in my home and so many more things that I think probably I would have thought were potentially a bit trag before and now I'm kind of. So I think, well, I think the living. Such a reader is growing up with her love of living, et cetera. But I think, and you know, we've been quite careful or tried to be quite careful in ensuring that actually as sort of maximalism and eclecticism becomes the trend, actually the brands don't get too close together because I think it was obviously quite easy when modern or contemporary was quite simple and minimal and pared back. But as actually that eclecticism is very modern now. You can be very modern. I think there is, you know, those two sort of style stables move closer together in the kind of current zeitgeist. You know, everybody loves Beata. Beata works for a living etc reader and a Homes and Gardens reader. Right. She could be either really. And I think there's so many brilliant designers working today who are very sort of decorated and layered and soulful. Nicola Harding, you know, but actually also quite modern. And their pieces are quite modern and they're not super classic, which I think obviously we always say Homes and Gardens, timeless elegance, classic style, living, et cetera, kind of contemporary design, sort of forward looking interiors. But yes, I mean I think probably a lot of people do grow up through living etc and then move to Homes and Gardens.
- [11:27]
B
Yeah, I mean I'm so curious and you and I have talked about this in the past about the huge percentage of traffic as you were saying that Homes and Gardens is seeing from the U.S. and funny enough, we were just having a conversation on our Thursday show news program about this big online brand. Wayfair is actually battling with this issue that many furniture companies are using British brands photography to show their product and.
- [11:58]
A
It'S thievery and wrong.
- [12:01]
B
And so, I mean so suddenly Sophie Conrad and others images are showing up on this site and we believe that part of it is because of course they know how obsessed the US market is right now with British design. So unfortunately they made the decision. So let's just go steal some images from British design and use them as our own.
- [12:23]
A
Okay?
- [12:23]
B
That's not what we want people to do. But you were saying earlier, you know, how much of it is this British thing and what is this British thing and why are Americans so drawn to it?
- [12:34]
C
There is something about British style that's resonating and you know, it could be the kind of cosy maximalism, I guess it's sort of very, as I said, very Beata. It's Lulu from Sewn. It's that layered, soulful, to use that word again, aesthetic that feels that speaks to heritage and is often rooted in older homes with historic detailing. And I think, and correct me if this is a wrong assumption, but I think the changes in from a housing stock point of view, I think what is considered a treasured housing stock in the US possibly has shifted in recent years. Whereas it used to be a real propensity to build new. And actually now people are more and more sort of seeing the charm and the sort of the emotional grounding that you get from living in a heritage building. And I think that shift in the US sort of mindset from a housing point of view potentially dovetails with the idea that actually a lot of what anchors British style is the mix of antiques and found items and inherited pieces that you build your room on as opposed to buying everything new. And I think that's been a sort of a fundamental premise for British interior designers, you know, through their careers. And I think, I think that's very classically British to sort of collect lots of treasures and then add the layers on top. And I think perhaps that, you know, that move towards that heritage and history could be what is appealing.
- [14:00]
B
But coming back to talking about some of the economics of it, and I love that you have made the paper investments. And again, this is what makes Americans feel sad about some of our top shelter magazines is we get yours and they're just heavier and glossier. And I take it that somebody was able to convince whoever writes the check for all of that that that was important. I mean to your earlier point, to change this narrative from media being in.
- [14:35]
A
Decline and seeming more confident.
- [14:37]
C
Yeah, I think where we got to with it and I think I actually feel really passionately about print being a really beautiful product. And I think Frederic is a good example of this cabana, a good example. And also of course the sort of more independent mag, very niche independence. Obviously we operate on a very different scale to them. But I think what they show and hopefully what our investment, albeit different but in the quality of print shows is you need to create an experience that people really enjoy. Otherwise people aren't going to part with their £6.99. And I think where what coupled with that was the case that we were able to make was sort of advertising growth off the back of that. So you know, we believed that we needed to create an environment that advertisers wanted to be within. And that yes, of course comes down to our content and great editorial, but also I think comes down to the production quality, you know, if our clients budgets aren't never ending and parting with it for them is a big investment and it needs to look and feel as great as they believe that, you know, so they want their brand to be within that. So I think we did it first with living etc and we invested in bringing the paper of living etc up to. This is a bit insidery, but up to the level of wallpaper, which was a big jump up from us because as I said in our private equity days, an independent advisor had suggested that actually a very good way of Saving money would be sort of a not complete standardization but a sort of banding of different magazines onto different stocks, which actually does obviously make pretty good economic sense, but not if you're in the business of creating beautiful products and you have that product being this sort of shop front or showcase of your brand. So we were undoing what had been a bit of an, let's say an aggressive set of decisions made during that time. And we just actually thought, you know, if we want to grow our advertising revenue and if we want to continue to convince our audience and our consumers to spend their money on our magazine, we have to create a product that feels and makes them feel good and feel and reflects what we're saying about ourselves as a brand. So we did it first with Living, et cetera, and then we did it more recently with our so October last year was our we increased the format of Homes and Gardens as well as the paper. So we made it a little bit bigger. Which actually on the newsstand has made a really big difference. You know, we're talking millimeters it's not but actually it feels a bit bigger and bolder. And yes it's obviously you pay the price literally pay the price from paper's expensive and but you know, we believe that there is payback in additional commercial revenue and also newsstand growth.
- [17:17]
A
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- [18:15]
B
Tell me about how you think about interior designers to that to that point. And you and I have talked in the past about how interior designers are perceived in the UK versus how they're perceived in the in the States. And many of the many of the British designers that I that I speak with are always excited to be coming to the US where they feel there are bigger projects and that their that their whole process is just more warmly embraced or better understood.
- [18:45]
C
Yeah, and I think that's absolutely true. I think there's a. Well, there's a much more church and state approach in the US than there is here. I think I was. So when I first came, my first trip to New York was probably in 2021. Not personally, but through Homes and Gardens. I couldn't believe that you couldn't get into the design center without sort of an appointment and a pass. And it's a much less formalized profession here. And that's not to say that interior designs aren't celebrated, but I think it's, it's a less commonly done thing to use a decorator. Whereas I think there's a, you know, people who are creating beautiful homes in the U.S. largely, you know, use decorators and decorators price around how they work with their suppliers. And there's a very solid reason for the way that the supply chain is set up. And I think here it's a little bit more fluid and a little bit more open. I think the interior design world is actually very small and one of my passions is actually looking at how we make it bigger and make it a more inclusive space and make it something that with more voices are celebrated and spoken about within our sector because actually it can become quite inward looking. And we've talked about my, well, Homes and Gardens is next in design initiative, which is about just that sort of celebrating, emerging under the radar, maybe young, maybe not. It could be their second career. It's not about that. It's just about finding people at a different stage of their journey who perhaps haven't had either the project or the budget or the resource. You know, one of our Nid:25, 2025 winners from last year, she'd had to work another job for the five years she'd been trying to establish her practice. And so she just hadn't been able to invest in taking it on full time because she had a young family that she needed to support. So we are really keen to sort of democratize the UK interior design scene by bringing out more names and actually writing as a media brand, writing about these people, giving a voice to these people, showing them on our social channels, creating a community, networking opportunities for these, you know, so that we can all have a bigger, bolder, brighter, more varied look at interior design. And if we are able to do that in the US as well, happy days. And as you say, I think the world is different in the US for interior designers and there are many more bodies and you know, like the DLN and there are lots of established, incredible bodies, but often these focus on very much the top Practices as well. And there are lots of lists that celebrate the top practices and there's a lot of focus on a small pool of brilliant designers. And actually we hoped with next gen design to look at how we celebrate and bring visibility to people who are doing great work, but perhaps on a smaller scale or they haven't yet been able to take on that sort of landmark leap project.
- [21:42]
B
So I love that next in design is something that you're focused on. And we're always talking too about how do we keep this next generation of designers in. Much the same way we talk about media. I don't want to start talking, oh, in the good old days of design it was like this and right. And talk about as if we've. Because really I feel like the design industry is so vibrant, there's so much demand on every level, at every price point. People want better design or they want to have things that feel more personal and more related to them.
- [22:20]
C
Yeah, I absolutely agree and I think that comes through in, you know, at every price point I think is such an interesting way of looking at it because of course not everybody can afford to have Christopher Farr cloth incredible through their home. But now they do lovely finished cushions. Maybe they can have a cushion. And actually I think Schumacher having their. A little bit of their sort of retail, if some of their retail products in some stores, again, you know, incredible product. But it's nice to provide access points for people who might be at a different stage of their journey. Maybe they'll be, you know, your customer down the road. But I think where we can open up, give access to all levels, to the vibrancy and, you know, wonderment of great interiors, that's what we're here for. Right. We want people to believe as much as we do that, you know, having a beautiful home will make your life better because actually being in an environment I was really, really interested. So before I moved into this house, we were renovating for three years. We did two houses back to back and we were staying in within my. And my parents had had a sort of self contained basement flat there and my children lived in a very nice bedroom, not decorated at all. The two of them shared, it was completely plain and you know, we were, we thought we were going to be there for nine months and we were there for three years and then we moved in here and they had their own bedrooms and you know, it was suddenly. And my then 5 year old went from being a young 5 year old to being a really tidy self, more independent, confident five year old because she had her room, that was her space and she had her desk and she could put her clothes away and she could find her clothes and it was very much her. She had a space that she could call her own. And that's different for everybody. But it was sort of a transformational shift about having a room for her that actually caused this sort of landmark leap forward in how independent. And obviously children change all the time. Right. So, I mean, I could be pinning a lot to that, but for me I felt like, it felt like that sort of embodiment of the fact that your environment does affect how you feel. And if, you know, if you create a space that's right for you, whether it's whatever that space is, if you enjoy being there, then that will have a positive impact on how you feel. And these small changes make you feel brighter and lighter and better.
- [24:37]
B
No, I couldn't agree more. Another thing that it sounds like you do. So there's two initiatives I want to talk about. So this By Design, which sounds.
- [24:45]
C
Yeah, By Design is a brand new creative platform that we're launching and the goal is to bring some of our incredible interior designer contacts directly to our audience. So we've onboarded 10 US based interior designers. So contributors include Zoe Feldman, we have Nina Takesh on board, Katie Harbison, you know, among others. So brilliant designers and they will be writing content for us, kind of original content in every month. So we've kind of originally brought them on for about, about six months initially and they're going to just be authoring kind of whatever they want. The idea is that it's not a commission. I'm not sitting here in London thinking that this is what they need to write about. We want them to authentically write about what's interesting to them and kind of keeping them up at night or they think that our audience would be interested to know about. We know that people want to read what people have to say. Right. We know that's a big change. It's a change in terms of Google and I think it's very personality driven Content is where you can differentiate from AI. If you cannot get an authentic voice from AI, you can get a lot of information. I love using AI in lots of different ways. Personally I think it's a great tool, but you cannot get personality driven content from it. You cannot get authentic voices. So with our creative platform By Design, we are just looking to bring some of those authentic voices to our audience on our platform. So obviously they've got the Homes and gardens audience and that's a big audience and that's giving visibility to them and a chance for them to write about what they want to write about. And from our point of view, they've also got great audiences and they're very interesting people. So we also get the wonderful benefit of association with them and collaboration and ideation and all the good things that come with working closely with different people.
- [26:37]
B
We've been talking a lot in recent months about the rise of Substack and other platforms where, as you say, more personality driven content can be created and content that doesn't have to be filtered for an advertiser needing to sign off on it or not sign off on it. I wonder how you're thinking about that aspect of it.
- [27:04]
C
I mean, we absolutely are thinking about the aspect of that. So what this is as a creative platform is us exploring how we might look ahead to an open platform. You know what? Because obviously with Substack, what we wanted to do with Homes and Gardens is bring these great, great voices in and then to speak to the authority and the values of the brand. The risk with an open platform is obviously you don't have that curation of voice, but it's very interesting to us. And I think as somebody who follows myriad substacks and gets a lot of joy from that, I think that's where we will all be evolving or not where we will be evolving to, but something that will become one of the strings within our toolkit the way that Pinterest is and the way that Instagram is. And actually I think it'll be another one of our platforms that which we show up for our audiences. It feels almost like a blog revival. Right? It's sort of. We moved so far away from blogs and now actually we're thinking, okay, there's something in this that you're never going to get from SEO content or you can't receive at the end of your ChatGPT question.
- [28:10]
B
Well, exactly. And I love you describing it as an antidote of sorts of to this whole movement of AI which as you say, can be a helpful tool. And there are some great things. It's not terribly good at headline writing, I've found, but despite I know many editors are questing for that. I say don't and I hate getting an email that I can tell has been written by a. I know highly complimentary of everything I've been doing in the past few weeks. And talks.
- [28:47]
C
Yeah, and the giveaway EM dash on space without the spaces. It's the terrible giveaway. But don't get me Wrong. I think it's a very useful tool to collaborate with and question when you're looking at planning or ideating and thinking, I've got this plan. Have I missed anything? Almost using it as a sounding board as one of the things I think is handy. As somebody, I love the creative parts of my job. I'm not giving any of those up. But equally, I also like having a sounding board and somebody adding in additional things that maybe I haven't thought of. And I think if you use it in that way where very much is sort of driving rather than being driven, it can be really helpful.
- [29:27]
B
Yeah. And fascinating to read how much Kelly Wearstler is incorporating it in her work. And she shared very generously in her substack. Here are all the tools I'm using. Here are the different programs. If nothing else, go fool around with them and see what they do. And she talked about it actually making her work feel more human because they've gone through all of these different iterations with the design and removed some of perhaps the more laborious tasks.
- [29:59]
C
Exciting for me as well, where you can use it to shortcut this stuff that doesn't require brain power or creativity, but does take time and is actually the areas that you can use it to just pull out some of that sort of laboriousness and focus on the good stuff is always going to be positive.
- [30:18]
A
Yeah.
- [30:19]
B
No, no. I know that my overlords are looking for me to use AI more and more. So I will report back to them on.
- [30:28]
C
I'm grateful to talk to you and not a robot.
- [30:31]
B
Exactly. I am so glad that I have not yet been replaced by AI.
- [30:37]
C
It would be a lot less fun.
- [30:39]
B
That time is coming. Hopefully you can tell my personality is genuine and not AI driven. So the other big initiative that you've got going on that I want to learn more about is Dovetail. Yes.
- [30:51]
C
So tell me about that. I'm so excited to talk about Dovetail. Dovetail. I cannot take credit for the initiative. It's an amazing, amazing project that is a collaboration between a group of British design showrooms and British Consulate. So the team at Drummonds and in Interiors Academy sort of were the architects initially, as far as I'm aware. And they were very passionate about showing the value of British craft in the us so essentially a showcase of UK craftsmanship across Manhattan. So numerous showrooms have been onboarded and that each showroom will host a piece for UK artisans for a three week period in October. It starts in October, so it runs into November. And so we're involved on the 14th and 15th in a series of sessions across and D and D&200 Lex. What we're really hoping to celebrate and showcase is that level of craftsmanship, that passion for artisanal work and that heritage. And I think what they're curating, and I know that Kit's involved the following week with some events down in soho and she's doing something and then there's a sort of finale event, I believe, at the Met. So it's a really, really exciting series of events and sort of program that they're curating. And we're just delighted to be involved in the march.
- [32:11]
B
Well, that's so great. And I'm thrilled to hear that it's across different design centers because one of the things that Jim Druckmann from the New York Design center and I often talk about is that we wish that there was more collaboration among the design centers during the the design weeks or the Times. And that's not always so easy to pull together.
- [32:32]
C
Yeah, we felt it was important. Well, let's say we. I can't take credit for this, but the team, the kind of the amazing team who've, you know, come up with the programming, felt that actually, you know, we need to bring it all together and, you know, the showrooms who are involved are across those different design centers. And so we, you know, rather than limit it, actually let's open it up to brands who are passionate about telling that story story and make it work as a program and a trail and really bring that together as a sort of cohesive collective. Because I think it is really fascinating how many UK brands are launching or have launched or are growing, you know, are in the US And I think full circle to our conversation earlier. But, you know, it is, it is a really, really important market for most of our brands now. And actually, how can we come together to tell that story collectively with more impact?
- [33:24]
A
We're taking a quick break to remind you about leloy. This October at High Point Market, Leloy is hosting special events in their showroom you don't want to miss. On Saturday the 25th, they'll start a keynote conversation with Amber Lewis, Julia Marcum, Anna Bond, and laloy's newest partner, who we can't reveal just yet. They're also hosting a book signing and a meet and greet with Amy Astley, the editor in chief of Architectural Digest and the author of Ad at Home. Learn more about those events and book your appointment@leloyrugs.com that's l o l o I rugs.com and don't forget to follow Aloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now back to the show.
- [34:16]
B
And how do you think about. I was on your social this morning. There's a beautiful project from a design team, architect and design team that I spoke to just recently, Hendrik Churchill with a beautiful project and I love their color sense and some of the rooms are really just extraordinary. But I was curious how you think about who you publish and designers are always eager to hear, oh, what, what can I do to get published? And what do you look for in all of that?
- [34:46]
C
Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. I think for us it's the imagery. You know, I think we, we do have a very specific aesthetic. I think, you know, across both, both brands there is, you know, I can, I could tell you, you know, we can play a really fun game where we, where there is a specific aesthetic that's right and then that's not right and that's hard thing to do. But I think quality of imagery and I actually think the UK sensibility of imagery is a little bit different to what American press teams possibly.
- [35:16]
A
Oh, tell us.
- [35:17]
C
I think there's something quite stark and still and staged about a US photography style, whereas we go for something more layered and characterful and almost a little bit more. The editorial bent here I think is to have something a little bit more natural and less polished. So by that I don't mean messy but I do mean something that it feel, you know, the kind of the compositions have a warmth and a lived in ness to them whilst being very tailored that I think often you don't get with what with kind of a suite of interior designer shots that a brand might, their practice might get for their website or their portfolio where they're really showcasing the full details. So we often try to reshoot where we can. It's obviously not as easy for us to do that in the U.S. but where we can go back and take our own photography with our photographers and get that very editorial vision in terms of getting stories feature, there is no limit to the number of houses we would like to look at. So we just encourage, honestly just encourage people to make contacts with the brands and send in their projects. Because ultimately, and that's where I do think the difference is for the more established practices who have PR agents, if you don't have a pr, it's very hard to find your way through that. But we love seeing beautiful projects and we love showcasing them and our currency is content. So the more Content that we have the better. So we're always just looking for beautiful projects and I think Homes and Gardens, a little bit more layered and soulful living etc needs to be sort of surprising and forward looking and contemporary.
- [36:58]
B
But that's so interesting to me that you are often reshooting, which I feel is another part of the evolution of media today. Many U.S. publications are more than happy to use your photography if you've got really good shots.
- [37:14]
C
I mean, we are too, if we've got great shots, don't get me wrong, we would.
- [37:18]
A
But you're looking for something a little different, it sounds like.
- [37:20]
C
Yeah. And we would be delighted for the opportunity to reshoot because, you know, that content, you know, we might shoot the house as an incredible house story, but we might also be able to do a focus story on the bedroom and a stunning suite of details around a bedroom and master ensuite. And I think that content can work really hard for us the way that it's and feel very on brand. And you know, I think we need a visual language for these brands that feels distinctly, has a point of view and feels distinctly them. And I think shooting is part of that. And yes, it's been an incredible help, particularly as obviously budgets have changed radically since you and I started doing this because shooting is more expensive. But actually where we can, or where we believe it's worth investing in sending a photographer, we, you know, we feel that really does pay back. And I think in terms of the type of, type of projects that we feature, I think design feels so global now. The language is global. You know, we are exposed to, thanks to the wonders of Instagram and similar, we are all looking at projects all over the world all the time and finding inspiration from so many different places. So we are very open to featuring projects. We don't have any rules around the number of UK projects or US projects on the site or we will look anywhere for great decorating and lovely rooms. And that can come from the Middle east, that can come from Australia, that can come from Paris. We are open to all beautiful interiors.
- [38:59]
B
It's interesting we mentioned Cabana and Frederick and some others earlier. I had someone over to my house just recently who looked through several of those publications and it was interesting because they. There was one publication that was from a brand that actually didn't have any advertising and wasn't broken up in that way and it seemed a little almost disorienting to this person in terms of how they consumed the content versus Cabana or Frederick or some of the other of the many shelter books that adorn the coffee table here at the Scully household. But it made me think about still the impact and importance of print advertising for products and how they complement projects. And I wanted to get your thoughts about that.
- [39:54]
C
I mean, I couldn't agree more. I think the advertising absolutely is part of the product that you're creating. And I think contextually relevant advertising that supports your editorial in terms of visuals or if you have a beautiful lighting story actually within that placing some lovely lighting. Advertising is only additive to the reader who is looking to buy lighting. Ultimately you are there. The intent of the person who's consuming that content is to find out about great product. So being able to work with great brands who always have beautiful display creative and then be part of the way that you create the book, I think is really important. And I think that display creative is lovely largely. So usually we believe that peppering through great ads only adds to actually what the reader experiences. It gives you a break. Sometimes pages and pages of features can fill a lot and actually a nice break of a full bleed visual from a beautiful brand. Actually as a pause moment, I think with advertising, for it to be successful, you can't do a one off. I think it's very difficult to, you know, if you believe you can place one ad and expect to see a lot of success on that, I think that's, you know, you really have to be quite consistent because I think actually it's that repetition and familiarity that does sort of cement your, your product in the mind of the reader. But I absolutely think it's additive. And when, you know, we of course run different volumes of ads in different issues of the year, you know, not every issue is equally relevant to our clients. And those smaller issues, we call them the Januarys, where they don't have that same pace because you're not flowing through between the advertising and editorial the way you are. I think in bigger October or April, those big issues where actually you're getting that really synergetic relationship between editorial and commercial paging.
- [42:01]
B
Yeah, it's interesting and I feel like on the one hand I'm excited to see people celebrating print and Frederick and the incredible current that comes out from Urban Electric, which is hundreds of pages of long and really quite striking. But I wonder too, from your perspective, does part of you say, okay, okay, that's very nice, but let's not get carried away here people, because really I'm in the magazine business and I, I don't want that to feel like competition or whatever.
- [42:34]
C
It's A good question, because I don't. Do I think of them as competition? I'm not sure I do. I think that the intent of somebody who's picking up a branded magazine and I think actually Suzanne, who was my first editor at Living Etc, I think works on the really beautiful stories now and she does an amazing job at that. I think the intent of the person who comes to that is quite different to somebody who's, you know, reading a shelter magazine and looking for that really edited, curated mix of stories. And I think as publishers, I mean, you know better than anybody, but we are about finding that great story. And I think what you don't necessarily need to do as a branded magazine is you can just showcase beautiful things and they're very good at that. And that's. But I think bringing together a really interesting existing collection of stories or products or you know, the edit that you get from publishers isn't really competed with by a magazine that's created by a brand because they're able to tell amazing long form stories about makers and really, you know, interesting to people like me, but certainly not the same. It's not the same sort of edit. Of all the things out there brought together into something that's right for our brand and our aesthetic and our sort.
- [43:56]
B
Of DNA, it's going to be interesting to see. And again, we talked about some of the changes going on at Conde Nast. I'm curious as to what big British shelter publication is going to first lean into celebrities in a big way.
- [44:10]
C
Yeah, I think celebrities are interesting actually. Homes and Gardens, we do some celebrity style content online. You know, it's nothing of the level that Architectural Digest does, but it's absolutely one of our sort of channels where we do, you know, celebrate what great designers are doing with celebrities who will go to the extent of, you know, the monthly celeb cover. Good question. You know, everybody's interested in how celebrities live. You know, whether you're an Adse, absolutely top level decorator or you're somebody, you know, Fiona living in Bath in her Cotswold house, you're interested. So I think it's about understanding how that translates and remains true to the kind of core of what makes you your brand. You know, this absolutely not something that we would, I'm not saying we would not do it. We would do it if we found the right fit. I think it's interesting and actually we did on Living Etc as story with Laura Harrier would be about 18 months ago now where we didn't shoot her house, what we did is we shot a manifestation of her style. So it was a sort of trend shoot that kind of worked with her to embody this expressive elegance as kind of like the end of quiet luxury and this new trend for kind of the kind of sort of loud luxury that kind of then came through. And actually it was a really fun way of bringing life to a trend shoot, which so we do, you know, because of the intersection of fashion and interiors and living, et cetera, we do explore how we can bring people into that to tell that narrative. You know, the fashion that we include, if we do include a model, is about storytelling rather than about the person. It's about actually that embodiment of the style manifesting in every way from clothes to decor. But I think all of it's worth thinking about and considering and playing with because what we do is create great content. And whether that's what is great content today, what is right for the UK versus the US I think we should try everything.
- [46:10]
B
And going back to the personality driven content, I think one of the things that I have certainly learned over the years is interior designers are an incredible resource when it comes to travel and what hotels to stay at and how to put a dinner party together. And there are so many different things that designers are just expert at and have sort of sought out good answers to things.
- [46:40]
C
And I think we don't love anything more than that trusted recommendation. I think, you know, all of us in how we travel or where we go to eat or, you know, we all want the trusted recommendation. And I think that is, you know, the best thing that you can get from people is actually that tried and true. You know, just had an amazing stay in Menorca at the new Vestige collection of New Son emitter kind of farmhouse. They've done sort of rural hideaway in like middle of nowhere in North Minorca. Utterly incredible. And I just want to tell everybody about it because it's one of those recommendations where it only open this summer. And the interiors are amazing. The staff is so gorgeously welcoming. You can, you know, you're riding dirt bikes to the beach and that's what you get from people that you again, don't get from a two dimensional response or an aggregated answer.
- [47:35]
B
No, you've got some really good answers to the antidote to AI. I like that.
- [47:41]
C
I love AI too.
- [47:43]
B
No, no, I mean, listen, it is here and we have to keep talking about it because it is showing up in a major way. But I love that you're engaging with a lot of younger, upcoming Designers too, because I think that's really important. And I really want young people to grow up appreciating design and also feeling like they have a place in the industry and can grow to become these great big firms that they see and perhaps get to be mentored by today.
- [48:13]
C
Absolutely. And I think as the role of media changes away from service towards all these other things, you know, the one thing that, you know, I think I may have said it already, but come back to is we know we have a role in connecting people and creating communities and bringing people together, whether that's in an event, say a dinner, curated dinner, or in giving a voice to new designers, you know, to an audience and bringing together people together that way. And I think at its, you know, at its heart, that's what media is. It's telling stories and bringing people together. And I think where we can flex that muscle to help younger, less established, more diverse range of practices have a voice. And as I say, absolutely couldn't do it without the amazing support of Kit and Claire and all our amazing board. But where we can work together to do that, it feels like a really good thing to do, but also a really beneficial thing for us too. What has been amazing about our next in design cohort for this year is of course I think they've enjoyed the media, I hope they've enjoyed the media they've got and obviously the access to the great industry, but they've become very much a community kind of a cohort where they are very, very lively. WhatsApp, which is sort of constantly sharing suppliers, sharing hacks or tips or pieces of press or updates and they've become a really strong group as well. So within it they found connections with peers who are at a similar stage of their journey and are looking for connection. And they're probably not. One of the criteria to be part of it is to have a practice below five people, so often of them working on their own, feeling quite lonely and actually the connection that they've got through being part of this cohort, and it's obviously our first one, so we're really learning too. But being brought together and having a sort of pre built structure to join up has been really valuable and incredibly rewarding to watch.
- [50:16]
B
Well, I love broadening and expanding the tent and bringing a lot more people in and often those smaller firms can feel isolated or not as connected. And so I'm all for building more.
- [50:31]
C
So you'll have to help me launch.
- [50:32]
B
It in the U.S. well, I'm hoping to do just that. So I hope that this is step one in me, in me helping you in that effort. I'm thrilled to get to spend time with you and I thank you so much for making the time to talk with me. And I'm so glad that this finally happened.
- [50:50]
C
Yeah, no, Dennis, I really appreciate it too. It's been very interesting for me. So thank you so much for your time.
- [50:57]
A
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.