Jeffrey Bilhuber and the business of beauty

Summary

Business of Home Podcast
Episode: Jeffrey Bilhuber and the Business of Beauty
Host: Dennis Scully | Guest: Jeffrey Bilhuber
Date: March 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this captivating episode, celebrated designer Jeffrey Bilhuber joins host Dennis Scully to discuss his unique career trajectory and philosophy on American design, the importance of the business side of creativity, and his insights into mentorship and taste. The conversation spans Bilhuber’s formative years, pivotal career moments—including his stint at New York’s iconic Carlyle Hotel—and culminates in his vision for the evolving interior design industry. With candor, wit, and characteristic storytelling, Jeffrey reflects on lessons learned, key relationships, and the intersection where ‘one plus one equals three.’

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Life and Defining Experiences

• Rooted in Movement: Bilhuber grew up in a family that moved frequently due to his father’s position at Mobil Oil. Each move meant reestablishing identity in a new home, igniting his sensitivity to personal space and design.
  • “Claiming your nest… it reinforced for me how powerful it is to have a sense of self as defined by the space you occupy.” — Jeffrey Bilhuber [06:03]
• First Design Decisions: As a teenager, Jeffrey and his brothers were allowed to choose the wallpaper and carpet for their rooms—a formative experience that sowed seeds for his future in design.
• Creative Heritage: While his family came from a line of creative engineers, art was traditionally seen as a tool to get ahead academically or in business, not a profession in itself.
  • "Creativity was used as a tool to get you elsewhere and into college." — Bilhuber [09:33]

Education and Early Career

• From Art to Business: After initially exploring art and media at USC, Bilhuber realized he was surrounded by others more talented in those fields, prompting a switch to Cornell’s Hotel Administration program to merge creativity and practical skill.
  • “I wanted to channel creativity into something which actually could be lucrative… the business of beauty.” [13:53]
• Learning from Family History: His grandfather’s innovation at Steinway (the Baby Grand piano) inspired his appreciation for merging creativity and technical problem-solving.
  • “He invented something which changed the entire manufacturing process.” [12:29]

The Carlyle Hotel & Lessons on the Business of Design

• Humbling Beginnings: Expecting a management position, Bilhuber started as a cashier, facing the consequences of a cash shortfall and learning personal responsibility.
  • “You do have to go home... but you are responsible for the loss of that money.” [18:33]
• Night Housekeeper: Promotion to night housekeeper taught managerial skills and the importance of both operations and individual personalities within a team.
  • “You needed direction or they needed reinforcement... I’m learning how to be a better manager.” [20:28]
• First Encounter with Mark Hampton: As the Carlyle renovated, Bilhuber worked closely with legendary designer Mark Hampton, absorbing the fusion of artistry and commerce firsthand.
  • “Decorating was not just about pretty... it was about how pretty, beautiful and handsome go together and merge with commerce.” [23:46]
• The Power of Ta-da: Experiencing the “dress rehearsal” of design installations shaped his understanding that success is the result of meticulous planning, not chance.

Taking the Leap: Beginning His Own Design Firm

• Turning Point: Bilhuber describes a period of burnout that led him to leave the Carlyle and, bolstered by his mentor’s support, start his own firm—with the practical fallback of his old job being held for six months.
  • “I am going to be a decorator. I know that’s what my purpose is. I can’t look away anymore.” [28:23]
• Learning by Doing: Jeffrey built his business through relationships, observation, and by seeking out peer knowledge—sometimes even borrowing contract forms from friends at other firms.
  • “You feed it to me in a corner, which they did. So I would study contracts...and cobble together my own agreement.” [34:59]

Defining an American Style & Mentoring a Generation

• A New School of Decorating: Alongside peers like Tom Shearer, Stephen Gambrel, and Jesse Carrier, Bilhuber describes forging a unique, original approach that helped define a new American style.
  • “We were the next wave of decorator that didn’t regurgitate what they saw. They made something not seen before.” [42:32]
• The Elasticity of American Rooms: Unlike French or English design, American interiors are malleable—allowing new combinations and optimism.
  • “If you say, what is an American room...that’s a great opportunity because it is malleable.” [44:09]
• Mentoring Rising Stars: His firm became a launchpad for several industry luminaries, and he embraced their departures as signs of readiness and growth.
  • “You must encourage their growth...you can’t hold back a person who wants to go forward.” [61:44]
  • On Tom Felicia’s Queer Eye leap: “It took some convincing when Tom Felicia told me he was going to leave… I didn’t want him to lose what traction he had within the industry...but it was a very smart move on his part.” [62:39–63:43]

The Business of Beauty & What Young Designers Must Learn

• Crucial Business Acumen: Emphasizes the vital importance of business knowledge for designers—charging, billing, contracts, managerial skills.
  • “Pay attention to the business of beauty. Pay attention to the structure of how we build a company.” [50:27]
• Craftsmanship Details: Insists that greatness in design requires deep understanding of the crafts—pleats, welts, textiles, finishes—and the language of workrooms and fabric houses.
  • “You need to know the content and the fill of every cushion and every pillow of every headboard you make…” [54:11]
  • “Anyone can make beautiful. Anyone. Anyone can make a room beautiful, but our job is to make a beautiful room better. That’s hard work.” [58:46–59:24]

On Taste: Innate, Learned, and Sharpened Over Time

• Genetic and Nurtured: While he jokes that he paid for his taste, Bilhuber attributes some talent to family genetics, but insists it can be honed through voracious reading, travel, and, above all, observation and articulation.
  • “It gets better with practice... you can fine-tune it, educate and enlighten yourself through observation.” [51:56–52:10]
• Ongoing Self-Education: “I am better at what I do today than I did 20 or 30 years ago because… I have taken care, you know, educating myself and enlightening myself.” [52:46]

Industry Evolution, Legacy, and Looking Forward

• Changing the Game: Recognizes the industry's move to greater efficiency, digitization, and less paperwork, contrasting how many hands were once required to execute projects.
• Pride in Mentorship and Publishing: Views his books as more than design showcases—they are compendiums of knowledge, aimed at lifting the industry as a whole.
  • “My books are more than design books. They’re books of knowledge. They’re books of learning.” [65:57]
• No Plans to Slow Down: Passionate and energized, Bilhuber looks to the future with continuing intent to innovate and share knowledge.
  • “I’m passionate about what I do and I’m going to do it until I can do it no more.” [66:59]
• On His Biopic Casting (with humor):
  • “Definitely Brad Pitt.” [67:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Role of Design in Personal Identity: “It was claiming your nest... it reinforced for me on the subliminal side how powerful it is to have a sense of self as defined by the space you occupy.” — Bilhuber [06:03]
• On Leaving the Carlyle: “I have to go. It took great courage... I am going to be a decorator. I know that’s what my purpose is.” [28:23]
• On Mark Hampton’s Genius: “His rooms looked like no one else's… He was an original.” [25:10]
• Decorator's Math: “One plus one equals three. The objects, when put together, are better when combined than when taken individually. And that’s what we do. And no one else does it better.” [59:24]
• On Mentoring: “No one ever stopped me, and I'll be damned, I'll never stop another person whose turn it is.” [61:13]
• Advice to Young Designers: “If you are blessed with great creative talent... don’t ever doubt yourself, but do doubt your ability to deliver on those promises both to you and to your clients, and learn how to do business better.” [50:20]
• On Taste: “I paid somebody 10 bucks on a corner.” (joking) [51:22]; “It gets better with practice... you can fine-tune it.” [51:56]
• On David Bowie & Focus: “David said... 'Let's only focus on the late 14th and early 15th century and the advent of perspective.' That was really important for me to hear because it meant that you really do have to be detail driven.” [57:58]
• On Industry Pride: “A lot of people have learned a lot from me. And that’s very important to know. I’m very proud of the careers that I have contributed to that I’ve helped.” [65:57]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:03] — Claiming your nest & early design influences
• [13:53] — Why Bilhuber moved from media to hotel administration
• [18:33] — Lesson in responsibility as a cashier at the Carlyle
• [23:46–26:18] — Mark Hampton’s impact: The art and business of design
• [28:23–31:16] — The leap to launching his own firm
• [34:59] — Learning contracts and business basics by borrowing from peers
• [42:32] — The “new school” of American decorating and originality
• [44:09] — Elasticity of American rooms and style
• [50:27] — The necessity of business education for designers
• [54:11] — Essential knowledge for great decorators
• [58:46–59:24] — “Anyone can make beautiful, but our job is to make a beautiful room better.”
• [61:13] — Embracing protégés' growth
• [62:39–63:43] — Tom Felicia’s Queer Eye pivot
• [66:59] — Looking ahead: passion for the future

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Conclusion

With warmth, clarity, and humor, Jeffrey Bilhuber charts a path through risk-taking, self-discovery, business savvy, and creative daring. He advocates for thoughtful mentorship, the relentless pursuit of mastery (“come back to me when you’re better”), and embracing the elasticity of American style. For Bilhuber, making a beautiful room “better” isn’t magic; it’s craft, vision, and the courage to forge one’s own trail.

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For More:

• Subscribe and read the latest at businessofhome.com
• Connect with Jeffrey Bilhuber’s work and books for deeper inspiration

Transcript

[A]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry.

[B]

My guest this week is interior designer Jeffrey Bilhuber.

[A]

After an early career working in the famed Carlisle Hotel in Manhattan, Jeffrey burst onto the scene with his own firm, quickly becoming a prominent voice in American design. Over the course of a sparkling career, he's been named to El Decor's A List and the AD 100, won the Albert Hadley Lifetime Achievement Award, published five books, and worked with high profile clients like David Bowie and Iman, Michael Douglas and Anna Wintour. I spoke with Jeffrey about why he's glad he never worked for another firm, what young decorators need to study, and how interior design is a simple equation. One plus one equals three. This podcast is sponsored by Resource Furniture, the leader in multifunctional solutions for the trade. Their transforming furniture from wall beds to expandable tables is designed and made in Italy to maximize every square foot without compromising style. Whether you're designing a home office that doubles as a guest room or occasionally need to accommodate large gatherings, Resource Furniture delivers flexibility with style. Visit their showrooms in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco and seattle. Or visit resourcefurniture.com to join their trade program and unlock exclusive pricing and support. That's Resource Furniture. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. At Ernesta, there's a true belief in the transformative power of interior design. Founded with the desire to make getting the custom size rug easier, faster and more affordable, Ernesta simplifies the process by hand, selecting quality materials and styles that appeal to nearly every sensibility and delivering each rug in as little as two weeks. Join Ernesta's trade program to lay the foundation to your projects with ease. Apply for membership [e-mail] BOH and now on with the show.

[B]

You know who I bumped into at the NISID gala is one of your proteges, Jesse Carrier.

[C]

Well, Jesse was being honored, of course.

[B]

Well, he was being honored last year. He tried to double dip is what he did, Jeffrey. He tried to show a post of him getting the award last year and using it as a way to say he was on his way to this year's awards.

[C]

Oh, please.

[B]

And of course, people on Instagram, they don't really read, so they just thought, oh, great, congratulations.

[C]

I can't believe he was double dipped. He doesn't sink that low. Other deck writers sink that low.

[B]

Do you know who we were honoring this year? And I don't know if you've come across him very much so this year it was Bill Sofield and who's.

[C]

He's wonderful and should have been honored long before this.

[B]

Well, I, I, and I'm, and I'm glad to hear you say that because I'm, I'm so glad that we were able to, to honor him. And I, I, my sense is he's not one for being honored.

[C]

No, I, I, you have to do it because you're there to support the school, not necessarily support yourself or your business. Yes, I, I think Bill, who I admire very much, and I do especially admire his originality. He's the sort of guy that just goes to work and does to get the best job he can and then he goes home. He's not looking for accolades. He has those already with his stable of clients. He's already been acknowledged in the best possible way, which is through your work.

[B]

Yes, exactly. But it's a great event, and I was so thrilled that you were honored years back, and I'm so thrilled that Bill Sofield could be there. And he was incredibly gracious.

[A]

Jeffrey.

[B]

You know, in all of our, in

[A]

all of our many conversations, Jeffrey, we didn't talk at length about where you grew up and what the early days were.

[C]

It's a very good question and a very appropriate question. I was born in Huntington, Long island, on the North Shore. We were there as a family for, I think, eight or nine years. What's interesting here is my father worked for Mobil Oil. He went to Lafayette College, and when he graduated, he signed on at Mobile Oil in New York City, and he retired at Mobile Oil. And so he worked his way up the corporate ladder and working one's way up. And that kind of devotion and loyalty meant that we were constantly being moved around. And I, we moved to six different states by the time I got to college. I have three brothers, so they were four boys, family of six. And every time we moved, we had to establish our sense of self in whatever house we landed in. And it was a free for all because our mom and dad would obviously, they'd find the house, buy the house, paint the house, and then we would arrive, you know, and, you know, all four boys and mom and dad would stand outside the front door, you know, for, for the ceremonial opening of the door, and then we would all bolt through the house to try and claim our turf.

[B]

To grab your room.

[C]

Grab your room. It was very powerful. I love it because although it didn't register with me that it was decoration or design or architecture, it was defining your Turf. It was claiming your nest.

[B]

And where were you in the order of civilians?

[C]

I had an older, a twin and a younger.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But it reinforced for me on the subliminal side how powerful it is to have a sense of self as defined by the space you occupy. And when we were in our early teens, it got better because at that point, my mother decided that her boys were allowed to initiate the decoration of the room they had selected. You know, we were all allowed to go downtown, I think it was the hardware store, and go through books of wallpaper. And we were allowed to select enough wallpaper for one wall of our bedroom, not for all four we could fit. It was a squirt, what she referred to as all my boys get a feature wall.

[B]

A feature wall.

[C]

And then you. The next house. It got even more tempting because we were allowed to go to the carpet store and the wallpaper store. So we, you know, we were actually slowly decorating our rooms, you know, to suit our personality well.

[B]

And it sounds like you were the one who really took that seriously. What can you tell me about the

[A]

early selections of wallpaper and carpeting?

[B]

I mean, this is.

[A]

This is big.

[B]

These are the first design choices of Jeffrey Vilhuber.

[C]

This is history. I wish it were better than what I'm going to share with you.

[B]

No judgment. No judgment.

[C]

Well, harvest Gold is a color that burned into my brain.

[B]

Very popular at the time.

[C]

Harvest gold, yes. And of course, it was only enhanced with a dose of avocado, which is magical of the moment, combination of colors. It was probably the color of the year at Benjamin Moore, but that's what I remember it. Flames that. My wallpaper, which actually does resonate in the flames. That, for me, I knew what that was. Which actually is something, is its origins, you know, out of an Elizabethan or Tudor period. And I identified it as a recognizable historic pattern, even though mine was printed on scrubbable vinyl.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But I could at least understood it. I understood that there was some history there, which is also part of what I do every day, is channel historic precedent, apply them to contemporary lifestyle. Those things were all sort of building on each other. I. My father and his father were both enormously creative, and I still have their sketchbooks.

[A]

Oh, how wonderful.

[C]

But they channeled their creativity into business, mostly on mechanical or electrical engineering, you know, ideas which could actually be transferred or translated into moving parts. That's how you embrace your creativity back then. And I think even when I was a young man, no one ever turned to me in my family and did this wonderful you should be a decorator or you should be an architect or you should be a designer. Creativity was used as a tool to get you elsewhere and into college. So after school and on the weekends you would actually take my paint box and large stretch canvases, which I would stretch myself, and an easel, and I would set it up opposite some beautiful charming house or cottage somewhere. And I would set it up on the side of the road and I would paint on the side of the road. Usually they were driven by architecture. I wasn't painting seascapes, I wasn't painting landscapes. I was painting structures within the landscape. So that was probably again some indicator of where this might all be going. Because a house in a landscape is more interesting to me than a cow in a landscape.

[B]

So was there a notion that you might go off to art school and really pursue this?

[C]

No, it wasn't a topic. It was never that. You know, art school wasn't considered formidable enough. It wasn't considered where people go to be educated. And you know, so it was, it was not a topic at the table. I did go to University of Southern California when I went to college. So usc, but. And I. That was telecommunications and media. That again was me trying to channel creativity. What does it take to be a producer? What does it take to be a director? What does it take to be an actor? I wanted to be noticed just like my father, who was wonderfully creative, ended up being an engineer, just like his father was a mechanical engineer. And he actually sat on the board of Steinway and Signs. He was the only gentle on the board of Steinway and Son. And he, when he died, he died with 120 patents in the manufacturing and making of piano. So he basically took his creative instinct to tinker with how things worked. He invented something which changed the entire manufacturing process. Steinway as we know, their hallmark are their grand pianos, which you basically. Everyone grew up believing that every concert hall would have a grand piano. In the middle of the 20th century, people basically moved from large houses or large townhouses to apartments and vertical living. And grand pianos basically couldn't get in the elevator and couldn't get into the new modern apartment. And they couldn't accommodate modern living. He invented something they call the Steinway B. The Steinway B is short for baby ground. The baby ground was actually compressed in size in order to fit into modern surroundings. And he basically, you know, that changed everything for Steinway. They were the only ones that actually had perfected it. And it was one of his most. My grandfather's Most significant patent. But you can see it was the creative mind working in a mechanical way.

[B]

Well, so how did, how did USC and thinking about being a producer or director, as you say, or an actor, how did that lead to you ultimately coming to Cornell University and studying hotel administration?

[C]

It was small. USC was a small school. Its hallmark were in fact within media and telecommunications. Because you're in the middle of LA there, you're in the middle of the industry. But it was a very, it's a very closed door. It's a family industry for the most part. Everyone knows everyone. And I felt that I wasn't going to be recognized as an actor or as a director. It was in many ways the reason I'm going to go backwards in order to go forward. The reason I didn't become a painter, which I was more than capable of, is there were better painters than me. And that stopped me because I couldn't compete with others who were doing it better. Same when I was in Los Angeles at usc. They were better directors and better actors than me. And I didn't feel that I had enough chutzpah and enough talent to be the best in that field. And you can see where this is going. So I transferred. I wanted to be the best in my field. I wanted to stand out and be acclaimed to Cornell, had a hotel school. And that seemed very interesting to me because once again, it's like, how do I channel creativity into something which actually could be lucrative? It actually could be the business of beauty. And so I applied to Cornell and I was accepted in their school of hotel administration because I knew that I would be an original, that I wasn't going to just regurgitate ideas that Hilton Hospitality Group had or Ramada or Marriott. At that point in the hospitality industry, there was an overriding drive to create signature vision within each corporate entity that could be replicated around the world. So if you were in a Hilton hotel in New York and then you wanted to travel and you went to a Hilton hotel in Istanbul, it would look the same. It was the sort of iconic signature perspective. I felt that what was missing was someone who was much more creative and more site specific design within the hospitality industry. So if you were in downtown soho, it reflected, you know, the surroundings that you were in. If you were in Paris, you felt that you were in the 17th arrondissement, which is different than the 14th. But it got me, it got me really thinking about architecture, design, creativity and business.

[B]

And how did that bring you to the legendary Carlisle Hotel?

[C]

You have done your homework and you do have very good notes.

[B]

I know about you, Jeffrey.

[C]

There's. There are some secrets. So after graduation, I went to the Carlisle Hotel. I obviously thought I was going to be the star of the Carlisle. And you know, land is a position of managerial position. I did end up as cashier at the front desk, which I accepted temporary.

[B]

But wasn't the starring role you were hoping for?

[C]

All right, the starring role, it's a

[B]

stepping stone to greatness.

[C]

But I wanted, I wanted to step on a lot more stones a lot faster.

[B]

So.

[C]

But I did it and it ended up being very fortuitous for reasons I could not foresee. You know, after being the cashier and my first night as cashier, this is at the front desk. You were basically in, in tails. You were in black tie and tales morning suits, but you were at a window, you know, behind bars and you would dole out money. But when I went to close out after my first night, it was, I think a hundred and some odd dollars short, like $180 short. And I stayed there till 4 in the morning trying to balance out, and I couldn't, I couldn't. The money was gone. At some point the manager came in and said, you know, you really, you, you do have to go home. I know you've been here, you know, for six extra hours trying to find this money, but you're tired. And I said, well, thank you, you know, thank you for your understanding and, and for forgiving. He said, I didn't say anything about forgiving. I just said you should go home. But I'm going to tell you, you are responsible for the loss of that money.

[B]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah. And you need to know that. So what we're going to do, because we want you to get some rest and we want you to come back, is that we'll deduct, you know, $10 out of each paycheck until you pay it back. So it gave me all of a sudden a real sense of financial managerial responsibility that you do actually control, you know, your destiny and you have to take responsibility for it. It was a very valuable lesson because I was trying to always understand the business of design, the business of beauty, and, you know, finances are part of it.

[B]

Well, so that was a powerful early

[C]

experience for you at the Carlo. And I did well, I did well enough to actually get a promotion at the Carlo. And I was promoted to the glory story position of night housekeeper. Night housekeeper. Don't get me wrong, it's not as glamorous as it sounds.

[B]

For those of you out there who are Aspiring to the position.

[C]

Yes, exactly. That night housekeeper position. There's always an opening somewhere in the city for a night housekeeper.

[B]

But this, this is a turning point for you.

[C]

So I did say yes. I agreed yes. And it meant that I would start, I think it was sort of two o' clock in the afternoon to like one o' clock in the morning. And for the most part it was managerial, in which I did like. So there were 35 housekeepers that would work in that department and you are responsible for them and making sure that the job they did kept the guest happy. Things. They needed to be spotless, they needed to be meticulous. You needed to know the personal request of each one and deliver. But it also taught me managerial skills because everyone who worked for me in that department had a different personality, had a different take on what they have to do. They needed direction or they needed reinforcement. They were doing things correctly. So all of a sudden I'm learning how to be a better manager after doing that, I guess it was a year or two. I got a call into the owner's office, Peter Sharp. Peter Sharp, his family owned the Carlyle at that time. The Sharp family not only owned the Carlyle, they owned the Carlyle house next door and they lived there too. It was very close knit. But I got a call into Peter Sharp's office and Peter Sharp was very affable and he was very good at spotting talent and said that it's time for us to renovate and redecorate the car lot. We've hired the best American decorator in the business today, a man by the name of Mark Hampton. Joe, he said, mark Hampton is going to be the decorator and you as a night housekeeper are the one who's going to be responsible for the systematic taking rooms down and the linear systematic aspect of getting them back up and running, which is a lot. But it was something that you had to see to understand technically, if done correctly, and this is what Peter Sharp explained, the room will go out of order on Monday and on Tuesday they'll paint the room. On Wednesday, they'll lay the carpet. On Thursday, they'll hang the curtains. On Friday they'll hang the picture, put the bed in, dress the room, and on Friday night they would rent the room. And Peter Sharp said, I have to. You have to understand the magnitude of this responsibility, because if this room is not ready for me to rent on Friday night, I'm not going to get the $250 that we're charging per night. And no matter how many Times I have to rent that room after that, I'll never, ever get that $250 back that we lost because you failed in your job. Responsibility to deliver. That was all that. All of a sudden, now I'm writing, I'm learning about financial management.

[B]

Yes, they are putting the pressure on you.

[C]

Human resources and financial and business management is what I'm beginning to learn. Then Mark Hampton enters the picture, who at that time was really, truly a great American decorator, esteemed and at the highest level. And he was also an intellectual, and he took his job very seriously. And this is something I needed to see. That decorating was not just about pretty, that it was not just about beautiful. It was not just about handsome. It was about how pretty, beautiful and handsome go together and merge with commerce. How does art meet commerce? And in fact, he stood in the room as the carpet went down, and an assistant was with him when the wallpaper went up. And they were there when the curtains were hung and dressed and steamed and when the pictures were, you know, hung over the bed. And they were perfect, like, wow. You know, there was no randomness about this. It was all premeditated movement in unison to get to the end result. What we refer to, our clients refer to is the ta da. The first night, the opening night, and this is what we all aim for in our business, is to get our client to opening night. But what I got to see for five solid days over the course of 250 rooms, I got to go to the dress rehearsal. And instead of just going to opening night, I didn't go and walk into somebody's apartment and say, wow, this is fantastic, without knowing how much effort it took to get to fantastic. I saw it and I helped create it, you know, and I. I got to witness it. That's when I realized that what we do takes an enormous amount of premeditation, talent, expertise, and confidence. And I think most people would agree with me who knew Mark or knew or admired his work, that he was masterful. And the reason that he was at the top of his field is because what he did, he did damn well, and he did better than others. And he also had a distinctly American take on Anglo English decorating that was uniquely his own. Mark Hampton's room looked like no one else's room because he had. He was an original, shall we say?

[B]

Yes, yes.

[C]

They weren't nostalgic rooms, although they were traditional rooms. They seemed distinctly like they were because of his hand and his eyes and his mind interpreting history.

[A]

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Immerse your clients in elevated design with Ernesta's curated collection of custom size rugs. Explore a vast variety of options that work for your creative vision through complimentary unlimited samples. Gain access to exclusive trade discounts and receive personalized project support through Ernesta's dedicated team of consultants. To apply for membership to Ernesta's trade program or to learn more, visit ernesta.com Ernesto Boh and now back to the show.

[B]

I know this. This whole experience has a huge makes a huge impression on you and begins to change how you think about the role that you have at the at the Carlisle. Tell me about that.

[C]

I had gone to work. I was working at this point in between three and four years after graduating from Cornell, and there was no time to go back to school to learn some new craft. I could only learn Minecraft through observation, and I was fortunate enough to do that. What happened is my apartment was on 65th and Madison in the Carla and 76 in Madison, so I would happily do deer leaps every day up Madison Avenue to get to work. Because I was at the Carlisle and it was a beautiful place to be and I enjoyed it and I was learning. But I One morning, and it wasn't because it was snowing outside or rainy outside or at a cold, I couldn't get out of bed. So I called in sick. Now, he didn't know what it was. I didn't know. I wasn't sniffling, I wasn't coughing, I didn't have a fever. But I just, I, I couldn't, I didn't. I couldn't find the energy to get to work. And the same thing happened on Tuesday. And I called and said, and the same damn thing happened on Wednesday. I just couldn't go forward anymore. Thursday I realized something had to happen. Something had to change. On Friday, I did go to work and I sat down with the executive housekeeper who I reported to, and I said, my time has come. I have to go. It took great courage. It took great strength because I didn't have any background to go forward in the profession, which I knew I now had to do. And she said, what are you going to do? And I said, I am going to be a decorator. I know that's what my purpose is. I know that's what I have to do. And I can't look away anymore. For some reason, I didn't even get it into my head that maybe I should call Mark Hampton's office and see if they needed an intern or Albert Hadley's office and see if they needed. For some reason, that thought never crossed my mind. The only thing I could do do was be a decorator immediately. I had studied human resources. I had studied media management. I had studied financial management. I just had to put it all together. Mrs. Golia, who's the executive housekeeper, did something which I will never forget, and it was of great assistance. She said, jeffrey, I'm going to tell you that three years ago when you walked into this office, we knew that you were destined for more. And I knew that this day would come. And we understand what you need to do next and we will support you in this decision. And if it helps, because I know that it is a very big, high risk decision, if it helps you, I'm going to hold your job open for six months. And if it doesn't work out the way you hope it will, you can always come back. And that gave me the confidence to stand up and shake her hands and say, thank you, I'm on my way. And I. And I thanked everyone and I went back to my apartment and I got on the phone and I just called people until they wouldn't they, you know, until they couldn't stand it another minute.

[B]

And I just called everyone and told them, you're starting.

[C]

I'm a decorating firm apartment, and if you need help, I'm here to help you. You know, it was interesting because I wasn't looking to do a glamorous apartment. I wasn't asking to do somebody's country house or a plane or a boat. I just, you know, all I needed was enough to, you know, few things to do, to learn the rope to go over to the D and D building and go buy a couple yards of fabric and make a couple of pillows or a lampshade. That was enough to get me through and learn my craft and learn who the people are in the business who I need to do business with. I wanted to know who was at the front desk at, you know, at Clarence House. I wanted to know who was in the memo department at John Roselli. I wanted to know who the salespeople were at Quadro. And the only way to do that is to buy something from them and socialize with them. So I started to learn who the people and the players were within the industry. And I got a little bit of work, enough to pay my rent. And I did that for a bit until I, you know, had the great fortune of dialing a family out in Pennsylvania that I knew socially. You know, the same thing I'M a decorator. If you need any help, you know, I'm here to help you. And they said, actually, your timing is perfect. You know, your timing is perfect. We actually had been working with a woman by the name of Cloda on our house. And it's a wonderful house. We're in the early stages, but we don't think that it's really the most ideal fit for us. And we've agreed to part ways with good reason and good merit and on good terms. And we think that actually, from what we know of you, you have great talent, and we'd love to have you join us to actually decorate this house. And that was my first real commission and my first full house, you know, soup to nuts. And that can get you through a couple of years, but as you begin to accumulate your. Your resources and your confidence and you. You fine tune your craft. And that project was a. Was an iconic project that, that was photographed endlessly and brought a lot of attention my way. And when it was photographed for Vogue magazine, it was a triumphant, you know, celebration for me and a great achievement. And Hamish Balls, who is a great friend and, you know, wrote that story, also noted that this was the project that the design world stood up and paid attention. And it's true, it was the talk of the town.

[A]

Well, so, Jeffrey, in the very beginning,

[B]

what did you know, to your point, about having studied finance? And I don't know what you were able to learn from Mark Hampton through the installation process of all of those rooms, but what did you know about how to charge and how to bill and how to sort of turn this into a profitable operation with your very first project? And tough act to follow. Stepping in after Cloda, I just sort

[C]

of learned that on the fly. I asked other people who were in the industry. You know, obviously at this point, I started to surround myself with other young, talented people who were in the industry, whether it was, you know, Richard, Keith Lynham, who was working for Irvine and Fleming, or, you know, they were my colleagues, colleagues that I respected, were my peers who were all, you know, in the. In this industry as junior designers, senior designers, draftsmen. So I would just ask them, how does. How does your company charge? How do you do business? Or do you. Have you ever seen an agreement, you know, that was going, that went to a client and, like, if they said, yes, I have. And they. Can you possibly make a copy of that agreement and sneak it out of the office, like in a paper bag, and then you feed it to me in a corner, which they did So I would study contracts, I would study agreements from different decorators offices and I'd cobble together my own agreement to. All of a sudden you knew about percentages. And you know, I was a young man and I think that I was charging 25%, which seems fair to me. It's gone are the days I charge 25%, let's be clear. But it was enough to get me behind.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that's interesting. Okay, so you asked a bunch of people and I can't remember the timing of when another youngster, Tom Shearer. And if I recall, you guys met back at the Carlisle.

[C]

It was before. I mean Tom. Tom was just within my orbit. And I knew Tom socially. He was. It was part of a circle of creative young men. I think Tom was great friends with James laforce. James laforce worked for Eleanor Lambert. Eleanor Lambert did public relations and you know, and she was a dynamic force. It was just a circle of young men at a certain period of time in the city who found each other. And as I remember, at some point he called me and he said, you know, I'm not. I really don't think I want to be an architect. I actually think I'm going to be a better decorator than an architect. Wondering if maybe we can do something together. I would. The only person in the office because I technically working out of my living room. And it was. I needed a sounding board. So I said, well, I didn't really get this anymore. Thought I've not been looking for anyone but. But I know you and I know that you're damn good at what you do. And let's give it a crack to Ding Dong. He's the next person in the living room, you know. And we put a partner's desk in the. In the middle of my living room and we faced each other and got to work. So all of a sudden it was the two of us.

[A]

And do I.

[B]

And I recall that.

[C]

That.

[B]

That an early Kips Bay show house was also a major turning point for. For you and I want to say 1987 or something along those lines.

[C]

Kips Bay is badge of honor to. At some point Tom and I did the maid's room, you know, at the top of the house because we were unknown. There was also a showhouse in Southampton. And we were working. We were proud of our work. We were successful. We were bringing in projects. We were growing. People were respecting us. So we needed to announce ourselves to potential clients and to the industry. There was something which I didn't really know about Called the Southampton Showhouse. Tom knew about it because he grew up out in the East End, in East Hampton. And so he was connected. Medell Samarijan was a force out there. And he said, we have to call Medell and find out if we can get a room at the Southampton show house. If that's our goal is to grow and to bring attention to us, we have to do it. And Meddell took the call because she knew Tom, not me, and said, we'd like to do a room. And she said, jeffrey and Tom, these rooms were spoken for a year ago, if not more. There's no room available or two months or three months away from the June opening. And I brazenly said, well, if there's nothing in the house, how about a room in the garden? And she said, there are no rooms in the garden. I said, how about we build a room in the garden? Let's build something. We can make something. If there's no room inside, we're going to build a room outside. And she said, if you can do that, more power to you. Yes, you're in. So we. We designed a tent, a very big tent, and we built it. You know, we laid it out on the table, the giant cutting tables. This tent, which must have been a good 18ft wide and maybe 30ft long, this was a big tent. This was no pup tent. And they cut it and sewed it and. And made it on. On the table. And we put in the truck and we went out there. And I'll be damned if Tom and I and maybe a couple of other people didn't hoist a whole tent up in the garden, you know, outside the show house, right in the driveway, as soon as you pulled in, you couldn't miss it. And what I noticed when I would be there sort of standing at the door with my little card, waiting to hand out my business card, is that people not only stopped, but they stayed. They appreciated it, and very memorable and very professional and captivating. And it also was photographed endlessly and brought a lot of attention. People were now recognizing that this is a team to deal with, this is a force. We were on our way, and we needed to grow. Once again, we were at growing pains, and we needed now an architect or draftsperson to realize our ideas that both of us could draw. Both of us could do elevations and furniture plant, but we actually needed a real drafting department until we started doing interviews. And the very first person that we hired, our first employee, was Stephen Gambrell, who had just graduated from the University of Virginia with an architecture degree. And he became our architect, soon to

[B]

be rising star and. And legendary figure himself.

[C]

But we all. Again, it was a period of time where there is this great creative energy, you know, orbiting around a small group of young men. And those young men found each other. I think after that, when we needed another designer, then think. I think after that, Tom, Felicia was the next hire, another.

[B]

Another rising star who would go on to greatness.

[C]

And we have. You know, we've had great fortune as a company, you know, to bring on people of enormous talent who have gone on to make great contributions on their own, including Jesse Carrier and others, you know, to. There's something we do that attracts the brightest lights.

[B]

Well, so what is that?

[A]

What did you do to attract all

[B]

of these wildly talented people who would go on to such greatness?

[A]

What was the attraction?

[C]

I think we were originals. I think that we were a new school of decorating. We were the next wave of decorator that didn't regurgitate what they saw. They made something that had not been seen before. And we changed the shape and the language of our industry because we contributed something which was not there before. And we all had that same confidence and that same energy about us. It was at a period of great change, and whether they worked for us or starting their own company, all of a sudden we started to pay attention to great talents out there who were all basically relatively new to the scene, who were all changing the scene simultaneously.

[A]

Well, and do you remember to that

[B]

point, Jeffrey, do you remember the time where you didn't have to court as hard? There was this moment, and I don't know if you can tell me when it was where you were suddenly just received as this great American designer that you sort of defined what American style was. And it was as if you spoke for a generation in that.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah, thank you. It's very nice to hear that. For people, it's a little ambiguous what is an American designer or what is American design? And I actually see that as a great asset. Being an American designer allows us to source from different locations and different periods and create a very, very unique language. And when I thought about American design versus other schools, when you. When someone says, tell me what a French room looks like, I think they get very distinct images of what a French room looks like. It's very clear. Or what do you define an English room? You see English rooms. When you close your eyes, you can see them. If you say, what is an American room? If you close your eyes, you can't see them. That's a great opportunity because it means it is malleable. It allows us to put modern art next to 18th century furniture, to put Navajo carpets, you know, down and contemporary upholstery, you know, to, you know, on top of that and to explore creative resources and artistic resources and nurture them and bring newness and energy to an American room, too. And I think that great, great American rooms are optimistic. You know, they're. They're rooms that the 20th and the 21st century have given us. I was asking Valentino one day because we were working, you know, with Valentino on the apartment on 70 street or beginning the interview. We didn't work on it, but we were interviewing him, and we were there. Giancarlo Giametti was there. So I had a question when I walked into the 7th District apartment with Valentino, who is. Who lived a grand life and a very rich life, but I couldn't understand what the allure was about New York City for someone who had a wonderful apartment in Paris and a wonderful apartment in Rome and a great big house in the French countryside and a house in Capri, all of which had been documented, which were lavish and luxurious. And so I said, what. What is it that brings you to New York when you have all of these other beautiful places to go to? And Valentina said, new York is the city that the 20th century gave to us. And that was so clear to me. It's a 20th century city. And I think what we do as American designers is we create 20th century or 21st century decoration where it's not nostalgic, it's not 18th century, it's not 19th century, it's not 14th century, all of which have historic presses. We are American directors because we are of our time. We're not ahead of our time. We're of our time. We directly reflect what's happening around us.

[B]

Yes. And how did that come to inform how your work evolved? Once you heard that and it made that kind of impression on you, it

[C]

just gave it great clarity. I mean, I think that my work has great confidence and great clarity, but it reinforced that we are individuals, and we have to embrace that, and we have to. That we aren't. We can't be anyone other than who we are, which is what I learned. You know, I had to express it, and I had to make it my life's work. And that. And I'll be damned. That's exactly what I did. Took some time. It took some time, but. And I'm happy it was. It was very fortunate that I was strong willed and strong headed, you know, to believe that I could do what I set out to do on my own. And I didn't intern at John Saladino's office or at Mark Hampton's office or Parrish had they did. I didn't intern or I didn't get a summer job or I didn't work for three years a design assistant within the industry because I think I would have pulled their interpretations, their direction into mine and absorbed it and I would have been a different version of them. So I think it was really fortunate that I didn't go to school to study design and I didn't go to school to study decoration, that I learned it sometimes the hard way.

[A]

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[B]

Recently we've been having this conversation about

[A]

taste and whether one can learn taste.

[B]

And I wonder where you come down

[A]

on that notion because here you are

[B]

saying you are so relieved that you didn't go to school, that you weren't influenced by big name firms that you interned for and that you found your own way. So tell me about that and what you think about it.

[C]

Well, I did go to school, but you have to remember what I went. I went to business school.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[C]

And that's something I cannot undervalue. And for everyone at New York School of Interior Design or any other, you know, design school, pay attention to the business of beauty. Pay attention to the structure of how we build a company. You know, and really if you are, are blessed with great creative talent and you know, it's and motivated to work within that energy and believe you have a real message that people will want to hear and see. Don't ever doubt yourself, but do doubt your ability to deliver on those promises both to you and to your clients and learn how to do business better. So taste. Yeah, I have it.

[B]

How did you get it? Where did it come from? How did you acquire it? Tell us more.

[C]

I paid somebody 10 bucks on a corner. 57.

[B]

Did you just buy it on the street?

[C]

Yep, yep.

[B]

Had we only known it was that easy.

[C]

I am genetically Predisposed.

[B]

Okay. Do you think that's the thing. So do you think you're genetically disposed?

[C]

I know that my. My creative talent, I can see it in my father. I can see it in my grandfather.

[B]

There you go.

[C]

But you can make it better. Just so you know, you can, you know, so I don't want anyone to say, oh, I don't have it.

[B]

Oh, my grandfather wasn't a painter, therefore, I never will have taste.

[C]

Yeah, no, it gets better. With practice, you can nurture. You can fine tune it. You can. You can in educate and enlighten yourself through observation.

[A]

You.

[C]

I'm a voracious reader. I travel as often as I can, and I observe. And the art of observation and articulation will contribute to your level of taste and will and. And will fine tune it. I am better at what I do today than I did, you know, 20 or 30 years ago because, you know, I have taken care, you know, educating myself and enlightenment, you know, and enlightening myself.

[B]

No, I'm really glad to hear you talk about that. Okay, so you were just talking about. And I love the way you're referring to the business of beauty, and I very much appreciate the language that you're bringing forth about the business side of all of this, because this is one of the centerpieces of this show and what we talk about and what I. What I want. As you referenced design students everywhere, but even those just starting out in the industry, or even those who feel they could be doing more to manage the business side, tell me how this is just academic.

[C]

It's not. We're not just talking about academic enlightenment. No. Even though it is the core to running a good business, there are craftspeople, there are workrooms, fabric houses, all of which have things to share with you. You need to know and to be a great decorator. And I don't really care about good decorators. I have no interest in good decorators. I only care about great decorators. If you're average, if you're middle of the room, I'm not interested. I'm really not. You can be better. Come back to me when you're better. But what you need to know as a designer is when you work, go into a workroom, all the different details of craft. You need to know what a box pleat is. You need to know what a kiss pleat is. You need to know what a Hadley pleat is. You need to know what a top stitch is. You need to know what saddle stitching is. You need to know, you know, how Long a hem should be. You need to know how long a break should be on the floor. If it's a curtain or tight something should be sewn. If it's a bed skirt, you need to know the content and the fill of every cushion and every pillow of every headboard you make. You need to know that, that comes to being in workroom, watching someone cut fabric, helping them cut fabric, giving them direct. Talk about the size of a welt. Is it a, you know, is it a micro welt? Is it a single welt? Is the braided welt, Is it a cord? Is it a contrast welt? This is our language. And that's where people and students need to grow and to learn. I mean, I tell everyone coming out of school, the best job they can get right out of school is to go work for a fabric house in the library and stand at the window when a decorator comes and said, I'm looking for claret colored mohair. And you have to know what claret is and mohair and how mohair is different from velvet and how velvet is different from sueded cotton. And if you don't know, you're going to learn right there. That's the best job out of school. You know, I mean, anyone that I interviewed as a potential employee in, at one point, I believe we had 21 or 22 employees.

[B]

Is that right?

[C]

You were that big at one point, Correct? Correct. And this is when it took, you know, what you. We had three design teams, you know, three full time design team. But it took more energy and more people to actually create things back then. I need bigger spaces, bigger offices, more paperwork. You know, it's, it's very, very labor intensive. So you needed more people. The way we do business now is different. It's faster, it's more efficient. There's no paper, limited paper. But you understand the business has changed for the better. It was just a very labor intensive business. But coming out of school and just going to work for someone and believing that you're going to learn because you have access to the principle is a stretch.

[B]

You've had so many extraordinary clients. And I wonder if you think of being such a huge David Bowie fan. I don't know if you have any wonderful stories about getting to work with the legendary David Bowie and his beautiful and talented wife Iman.

[C]

It's very interesting. Iman and David, you know, I, we did one project together in Los Angeles, but they're both very smart people and very curious. You know, in their, their exploration of the world. There was A summer that David and Iman and I, you know, cruised along the French and Italian coast on his boat. And David, being very, very intelligent and very inquisitive about history, you know, wanted to go to every museum and every port that we would stop. And I said, you know, honestly, this is, you know, France and Italy. There's an awful lot of history here. I don't know how we're going to get to any of these museums, let alone 20 of them, and learn anything. How do we. How do we come out of this exploration better than we went in? And David, this will give you insight into his personality, David. And I said, you know what, you're right. Why don't we limit what we're looking at so we learn more? And I said, how do we limit it? And he said, let's narrow the field. Let's only focus on the late 14th and early 15th century and the advent of perspective. Am I. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. The advent of perspective changed art forever. Let's just focus on that slice of the cake. That was really important for me to hear because it meant that you really do have to be detail driven. You really do have to focus. Out of all the beauty in the world, you have to narrow your field and focus on how it will inform you and make you a better craftsperson and a better artist and a better creative. I mean, that's what that was really helpful. Beauty surrounds us, you know, it's everywhere. And if you're visually driven, it's impossible to turn off. But how do you make it produce? Anyone can make beautiful. Anyone. Anyone can make a room beautiful, but our job is to make a beautiful room better. That's hard work.

[A]

So tell me what that means.

[C]

It means that through your education, through your vision, things have been merged together in a unique way that no one's ever seen before. That it takes confidence, craftsmanship, skill, determination, clarity, courage. It's. It takes great courage to do what we do well. Anyone can buy a lampshade, Anyone can buy a pillow. Anyone can buy a carpet. But you put it all together and they're still not happy. Everyone can. Anyone can buy anything they want, but they'll sit in the room and say, I don't understand why I'm not happy in these rooms. It's decorator's math. One plus one equals three. The objects, when put together are better when combined than when taken individually. And that's what we do. And no one else does it better. One plus one equals three. Well, there you Go.

[B]

There's an important lesson right there. I wonder, Jeffrey, we've talked about so many of the great talents that came through your office. Stephen Gambrel and Tom Shearer and Tom Felicia and Jesse Carrier and others.

[A]

Was it hard for you to let people go?

[B]

How did you manage that process? It's often. It's often challenging when someone comes and says, I. I want to go out on my own.

[C]

Or I'm. Yeah, yeah, basically, I open the door, tell them to get out. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. And I never talk to them again.

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

I know that is not true.

[C]

You know, when it's time for someone to move on, you can feel it, you can't stop it. No one ever stopped me. And I'll be damned. I'll never stop another person who. It is their turn. You must embrace it, you must encourage it, and you can do what you can. Whether it's saying, here's a client I think that you're working with really well, we're in the home stretch here. Why don't you work with that client if that helps you? Start just the way Maria Goya helped me by saying, I'll hold a job open for you. I can then maybe share a client with someone if it helps them. You must encourage their growth. And, you know, you can't hold back a person who wants to go forward. You can get rid of people who don't do their job well, but if they do it well, they will naturally want to. To go on and do it for themselves. This isn't human survival instinct. So you embrace it.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's nice to hear you say that, because I know that often it is challenging for people to.

[C]

It took some convincing when Tom Felicia told me that he was going to leave the world of interior decorating to go on air on Queer Eye. I wasn't convinced there, but he really wanted to do it. And I asked him about it and he said, I think it'll be great. I think it'll, you know, I'm more than capable of being an entertainer. You know, I've learned a lot here, and I can apply that in a different way, in a different medium. So he convinced me that, you know, that he could do it because I didn't want him to lose what traction he had within. Within the industry because he had worked for Robert Metzger, he'd worked for Parish Hadley, he'd work for me.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[C]

And he was true to himself, so I didn't discourage him. I just said it was an untested medium. And this was basically when those kind of shows which were design driven were at their infancy. So there really wasn't a clear path to. It was a very smart move on his part.

[B]

It turned out to be so. But as you were suggesting, it certainly could have gone the other way. I was always worried, knowing Tom at the time, I was always worried that his work would be debased or devalued

[C]

because that was exactly my concern.

[B]

Yes, because he really is an extraordinary talent and yes, he's funny and yes, he's a great personality and I love that America got to know him and love him. But also he really is an extraordinary decorator.

[C]

He's a great decorator and he's a fully formed personality. He's enormous, enormous, enormous entertainer that, you know, he's comedic. You know, focus. When we were working with Michael Douglas, the actor, Tom was the senior designer on the project. When we were working in Bermuda on the Michael Douglas's resort named Ariel Sands, which I was taking very seriously, A, that we were working with Michael Douglas and B, that we were working on a, on a hospitality project in Bermuda. And I was waiting at Kennedy Airport for him. Tom was running late. I was waiting and waiting and waiting and I'm like, I can't wait anymore. I'm getting on the plane. So I got on the plane and sat and they were just about getting ready to close the door. And in came Tom scrambling. He was in full drag as an American tourist in Bermuda. You know, he was dressed in Bermuda shorts with big white sneakers and camera, you know, slung over his shoulder and, you know, madras plaid shirt and a big straw hat. And it. But it was done as a kind of hilarious send up of stereotypes of what, you know, tourists in Bermuda look like. And it was just so completely calm and it made me smile from ear to ear. And that was true to his personality.

[B]

Well, I love, I love that. And, and he is such a great, great personality and, and talent. I can't help but imagine that he, that he learned a lot from you.

[C]

A lot of people have learned a lot from me. And that's very important to know. I'm very proud, you know, of the careers that I have contributed to that I've helped lot that the industry that respects what I do, I'm proud of how I communicate. Of the five books that I've written and the sixth book that I'm working on that have enormous audiences and you know, people, my books are more than design books. They're books of knowledge. They're books of learning.

[B]

Absolutely. And I'm, and I'm so thrilled that another book is coming out and that you still have things that you want to share. And I think I want to learn more about how you are imagining this industry evolving and you've seen so much change in the design world over the years. And I'm curious to hear how you're thinking about it going forward. And I love the fact that you're thinking long term about all of this.

[C]

There are no mythical plans of slowing down or retiring. I'm passionate about what I do and I'm going to do it until I can do it no more. So there's plenty left in me and many more projects to go and many clients who are out there who would, who are excited to work with us.

[B]

Well, I'm thrilled to hear you say that. And I really can't wait for the book. And we'll have to have you back to talk about it when it comes out.

[C]

The bigger question, who's going to, to play me in the movie? Who?

[B]

What, what casting would you like to see?

[C]

Definitely Brad Pitt.

[B]

It's definitely Brad P. I, I think that seems appropriate. I think that seems appropriate. It's, it's a great pleasure to, to get to speak with you. And I, and I thank you so much for, for making the time. I'm thrilled this conversation finally happened.

[C]

Thank you. It's a pleasure for me, too.

[A]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with

[B]

the latest design industry news, visit us

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[e-mail] where you can sign up for

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[B]

This show was produced by Fred Nicholas

[A]

and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.