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Business of Home Podcast
Jill Cohen on remaking Luxe and the state of design media today
01:06:36
The editor in chief of Luxe shares the story behind her revamp of the title, as well as some thoughts on the design media landscape.
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- [00:04]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Jill Cohen, the editor in chief of Lux. In her years as a publishing consultant, Jill was the force behind the industry's best design books. The last year she shifted over to the magazine world, taking the top spot at Sandow Media's residential design title. 12 months in and Jill is making Lux her own with a major redesign. I spoke with Jill about learning to break the magazine's unspoken rules, her thoughts on what is and isn't working in design media and why she wants Lux to be practical, productive and beautiful.
- [00:55]
Jill Cohen
Foreign.
- [01:00]
Dennis Scully
This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta, your destination for designer quality custom size rugs with a curated assortment of timeless colors, patterns and textures. Ernesta will deliver the right size rug in the style your client wants in only two to four weeks. And with Ernesta's exclusive trade membership benefits, you can get dedicated support, free unlimited samples and special discounts to help you achieve your clients design goals. To join Ernesta's trade program, visit ernesta.com boh this podcast is also sponsored by Ethan Allen. Ethan Allen is known for its classic good looks and reputation for quality. But did you know that most every piece of furniture is customizable? Designers can choose from hundreds of fabrics, an array of leathers, more than a dozen wood finishes, and most upholstery pieces can be made with contrast welts, dual fabrics, nail head trims, and so much more. Design something one of a kind and Ethan Allen will bring it to life. To join their trade program, go to ethanalan.com trade and now back to the show.
- [02:15]
Unknown
So Jill, as you stepped into this new role, I know that one of the first things that you wanted to do was to go on a listening tour and really travel the country to the many different regions that Lux covers and meet not only with your editorial team on the ground, meet with advertising partners and I assume designers in the community as well. Tell us a little bit about what that experience was like and what you're.
- [02:43]
Dennis Scully
Listening to or entailed.
- [02:45]
Jill Cohen
It was so important for me to get on the road and I felt like I needed to get to know all of these regions and kind of what the vibe was, how the economy was there, who the superstars are, who the rising stars are. And of course I had been to all of these regions frequently to shoot for top designers working on their books, but I wanted to go with a different hat on. I wanted to Go with a different purpose. So it was really the most valuable thing I could do because as I went to each region, I think meeting with our advertising partners and actually kind of big product companies, whether they were advertising with us or not, I really wanted to meet the players. And most of them I knew or had a connection to because they participated in shoots or they provided a lot of product for show houses or designers or their product in our books and collaborated maybe on photography or something. And many of these people hosted book signings and book tours and, you know, for, you know, for the designers across the country. So now I was coming back to kind of revisit and say, oh, remember me? I did a panel with, you know, Jim Magny here or, you know, somebody in Texas. And now I have this new role and would really like to get to know you in a different way. And really, the first thing that happened, everybody wanted to tell me their story, and everyone's story was different. Sometimes it was a story of why they're thriving, who they used to be, why they changed their management, a new direction for the company or the leader that I was speaking to was new and was coming in with a new mission. And it was fascinating because I really wasn't expecting it. I always asked the question, what does Lux mean to you? And really also came away understanding how valuable we are to all of them. I mean, especially in areas like, oh, I think Texas, Arizona, you know, Pacific Northwest, places that don't get the attention. And, of course, we hear it from the designers. They're like, thank God you're here, because, you know, look, we have Texas stars that are on our covers, that are featured, that are on our gold list. You know, our gold list is a very important part of gold and red of the business, because our gold list is the list of everyone who has been featured in our magazine. And unlike the other competitors, we have, we list the designer, the architect, the builder, the landscape, everybody in the industry that was involved. And this creates a directory for our readers. You get our back issues, and you look at the gold list, or you go online and you look and you see, oh, okay. You know, this. This builder, this architect, this designer. They're always in locks. This. You know, we vetted that. What was really interesting was going to these regions to see the people who rely on us. And, you know, I felt a great responsibility to them. It was like, wow. I mean, we are. We're kind of their link. We're their voice to. To the industry. And I came away feeling like, honestly, we are the Only ones who can really tell the story in depth. We have 45 pages in every issue in the front of book that are not part of the well. And those 45 pages are dedicated to. And I'm dedicating them. That's it. To design first.
- [06:27]
Unknown
So tell me what that means. Design first meaning.
- [06:30]
Jill Cohen
It means that we're not dividing our content into, you know, stories on jewelry and fashion and, you know, places to go in Europe. And listen, I love reading that in other places. It's just not. It's not our focus.
- [06:46]
Unknown
My question to you, in asking for feedback from people, both your market editors on the ground as you've described, and the design partners, the advertising partners, what did people say they wanted more of or needed more of from you?
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Jill Cohen
Very easy to answer that question. Oh, tell me one word. Attention.
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Unknown
Okay.
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Jill Cohen
Everybody wants more attention. Everybody wants more visibility and our responsibility to the industry. And I say the design industry, first the professionals, the trade, and then the consumer who's directing their professional designer. I like this because I read about it, is how do we creatively show the skill and talent in our industry? And my feeling is having been a storyteller my whole life, this is a creative challenge. And the fun part of the job for me to push my people to create great stories and content that everyone wants to come back to. Like, oh, I love the way Lux does this spotlight across the country. Well, they're really learning and they're seeing. And they're seeing product, and they're seeing creativity, and they're seeing inspiring images. And we're also showing people that design doesn't just live in New York and la. In fact, some of the most exciting design is really in the places that you don't expect and how. I have to say, Covid was a big part of the conversation. Every partner that I met with, whether it was a designer or an advertiser, talked about what changed for them during COVID Oh, when things got quiet. Oh, when things got closed down. Oh, when we stopped touring. Oh, when the design, you know, events stopped. Here's what we had to do. Most of our ad partners talked to me about mistakes they made, whether they couldn't ship on time, whether they, you know, needed realized their, you know, supply chain was problematic. So a lot of people were talking to me about how they figured out a remedy, what they are doing moving forward. I would say that it's kind of a pre. Covid post Covid conversation I had with most people because they shifted. There were some ad partners that said, look, we used to Do a lot of licensing. You know, we've slowed down on that. We had to work with our internal people during COVID We found that worked or it didn't work. So I do think we're in really a very big, deep period right now of both designers, architects, and advertising partners seeing the results of a post Covid world and how they shifted their own marketing and business model. And I think they're still a little bit in a state of confusion. But, you know, being a productive magazine means that every part of the ecosystem feels they need us. So the designers feel like, thank God Lux is here. I'm getting attention. That our advertising partners say it's great. They've created incredible storytelling that involves us and that homeowners and readers feel like, oh, my God, this is really my source for everything. If I really want to find out who's behind this. We mention every name. I mean, honestly, I think our pages would be prettier if we could just do full bleed pictures of everything. But we are so caption heavy. It's like, oh, we've got to mention every single person from down to the faucet and the nail head.
- [10:35]
Unknown
Right? But I mean, and that again, goes back to this notion of you being this directory, this resource that people can go to and find the build, who makes the windows, and all of the sort of vast details that go into the projects. And you mentioned about the gold list, for example, not just being the designers, but also being all of these builders and all of these other craftspeople who are involved in the projects. And I guess what I'm wondering is, how do you simultaneously create this really beautiful magazine, one that it seems you wanted to redesign and to freshen up after all these years, and yet still keep all of those elements of the information that clearly have been so valuable to so many about what the magazine provides.
- [11:34]
Jill Cohen
You know, I think it's all about a balance. I prioritize the beauty, for sure. The pages. People aren't going to want to read our magazine unless the pages are just, you know, wow, factors on, you know, and you'll see, even on our gold list, we figured out how to make the directory pretty. It's no longer 16 pages. It's probably squeezed into eight. But the names are there and they're bold and they're great. And, you know, it's cushioned in a place that is not taking the first 30 pages of the magazine. You know, I think it's about the balance of, you know, I've enlarged pictures, doing more spreads where people have Changed the way they read Instagram has made us this, like, oh, my God. The caption has more than six words. I'm moving on. So, you know, this is a visual delight, I hope, where if you really don't want to read it, there's so many great pictures, there's so many great ideas. You don't have to read it. But I think the value of the information is so important for those who want it. It's there.
- [12:43]
Unknown
Well, so it sounds as though. And you tell me. It sounds as though the feedback and the responses that you were getting didn't suggest that people were looking for major structural changes to the magazine. It sounds as if you got home from the listening tour to the extent that you were ever allowed to get home and actually be home for any extended period of time. You came back wanting to make the magazine even more beautiful from an image perspective, show projects in an even more visually striking way, bring full bleed images to the COVID It sounded as if people were saying, we love what's inside the magazine. You wanted to make it look even better. But you tell me.
- [13:37]
Jill Cohen
Yes, I think that I had a lot more feedback from designers about the pages. I would say that, you know, having worked with so many people that I've done coffee table books with, okay, so those are people that, you know, we spend months taking the same chapter and revising it 40 times to see if it looks better with grids or this picture on the left or the right or the typography. And we do such a deep dive. And my feeling was I broke a lot of rules. One of the things I love about Adam is he's like, you're making the rules now. I'm like, oh, good. Because when I got.
- [14:14]
Unknown
And what was a rule that you were breaking?
- [14:15]
Jill Cohen
I was like, do we have to put a primary bedroom in every. Some of these bedrooms are really boring. And my team that's been there for a long time would say, well, we always show this, that, and the other. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, you know, what if it's not the best work of the designer, who says we have to show that? And the more I gave myself permission to play with what I thought was the best of the best, the better the stories are getting. So we're laying out May, June, and now I'm really. It's only, like, my sixth issue, right?
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Jill Cohen
Right. Yeah. So now I'm really getting into. Okay. I mean, yesterday we had, like, a great meeting where we had, I don't know, 60 pictures of a house. And I was like, let's talk about the story you want to tell here. So I'm really kind of drilling down with everybody about what's the best story here? What's going to show the best? And why don't we go through this list of 50 and pull the 12 pictures that we think are just, like, so unbelievable. We have to show them. Can we make a story out of them? Is it too disjointed? And that's kind of how we're doing it now. I'm kind of going back to the lessons I've learned doing coffee table books. You know, the designers that I worked with, when they do a shoot, they'd spend three or four days at a house. We'd have 60 to 80 pictures. We don't have the time to do that with 64 houses. We don't. Okay. So when I say I want to be productive, I want to hear it from every aspect of the design industry that we're driving attention to them. Everybody wants attention. Really. People want to be in the.
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Unknown
Well, I get it. I want more attention myself. I can relate.
- [16:02]
Jill Cohen
Well, I can tell you right now, we're not. Lux is not gonna be a newsfeed. Cause I get my news from business of home. Thank you, Dennis.
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Unknown
There you go. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.
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Jill Cohen
I'm not going to be right.
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Unknown
Yeah.
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Well, no, I mean. And I think that's important, too. And knowing what you are and what you're not, it sounds as though. And this is very much what I would imagine you would want to. It sounds as though you very much want to bring all of this knowledge and experience that you accumulated as a publisher of beautiful coffee table books and say, what elements of that can we bring to the magazine to make people experience these projects in a very different way and be much more thoughtful? It sounds like about the photography and how it lays out.
- [16:50]
Jill Cohen
Right. But the end result that I'm always looking for is how do I drive business to the industry? How do I drive business to the designers, making them look better? How do I drive business to our advertising partners? By incorporating their product in really creative ways and having people dive into the magazine, read it, digest it, get ideas from it. For me, the win would be the next listening tour to have feedback from all of our partners saying, wow, you've been really the productive magazine for me this year. That's what I want. It's really about the whole ecosystem. We have to kind of feed every aspect of it. And ultimately, the consumer reading the magazine, the more immersed they are to the pictures. The more they're reading the captions. Who did this? Who made this? This is the difference between us and Instagram. You know, I was recently looking, we were doing a story on somebody and I looked at their Instagram and I was digging through to see which were their pictures and which were inspired by them. And that can be a rabbit hole and a little rabbit hole of confusion. There's no confusion in our magazine. If you're looking at an incredible house with beautiful product, you can read right on the bottom there, who did it, who designed it, which company made it and really use it. And this is really where I think print is never going away. And this is where I think we are different from the other magazines. It is prettier to not mention every little detail. But guess what? I'm gonna sacrifice a little bit of space at the corner of the page to really credit everybody involved. And that's my responsibility and I wanna do that.
- [18:45]
Dennis Scully
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- [19:33]
Unknown
I want to stay with one of the things that you just said, which is thinking about the consumer reading the magazine. Because I want to understand better who you imagine is reading the magazine and how you're thinking about those different markets. Because we often talk about this very trade focused, trade driven industry. But at the same time, you're very much creating a consumer magazine. And so tell me how. You tell me how you think about that. Or maybe you don't think you're creating a consumer magazine. You tell me.
- [20:08]
Jill Cohen
Okay. I see Lux as design first, which means everyone in the design community is reading it. We are very focused on making sure that everyone in the trade gets the magazine but the consumer. Every single feature in our magazine has been done by a professional. We don't accept any houses that were done by homeowners. So my reader is someone who owns at least one home. We know the wealth pockets were in. Most people own more than one home. We know that these people are looking. And I know from Working with interior designers. They're constantly annoyed by the homeowner calling, why didn't you get me this sofa? I saw this rug. Oh, I like this furniture from this company. And, you know, why didn't you mention this to me or whatever? Of course, all the designers talk about everybody coming in. They still come in with tear sheets, they still come in with name brands. They're looking online and they're directing, you know, the same way everybody's so annoyed by, by the pharmaceutical companies because we all go to the doctor and go, oh, I didn't know there was a drug for my.
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Unknown
Whatever.
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Right.
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Jill Cohen
Well, it's the same thing. We're telling the consumer, you know, what made this room beautiful, this product, this faucet, that marble, that whatever. We're giving them the information to make more intelligent decisions with their professional partner team. And because we mention all the, I mean, for us, when, when, when an editor is pitching to me and goes, okay, this is a win, win, we have a full team. That means the story has builder, architect, interior designer, landscape. To us, that's really what we're looking for. And when we have that full set, we know we have a really professional group that made the house and that we're giving people a lot of information on how to get what they're seeing, if they like it. And I think that's where our sweet spot is because a lot of those people are reading it in their region and it's like local access. Oh, great, this team is here. I can call them and find out how my house can look like this.
- [22:23]
Unknown
The pharmaceutical industry has done an incredible job of advertising to consumers and then having consumers show up in doctor's offices and say, hey, I wanna learn more about this new drug that's supposed to help me with this. And it's been very powerful.
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Dennis Scully
And I wanna.
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Jill Cohen
That's why I brought it up.
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Unknown
Yes. Because I wanna relate that to the dream of so many of your advertisers, is that the consumer who is not a designer is reading this magazine and is going to say, wow, I just saw that Waterworks faucet in your latest issue. And I'm going to, I want that, I'm going to tell my designer, I want that Waterworks fixture. And that is what so many of the advertisers hope for with reaching that consumer that they know is also reading the magazine.
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Jill Cohen
Exactly. And I think what's so important at High Point, somebody said to me, one of the marketing people who was making a decision about where to advertise said, tell Me, who are you writing for? Are you writing for the reader? And I said, yes. And he said, oh, see, I want you writing for the trade. And I said, well, I'm writing for the reader in the well. And I'm listing every single trade item in there. And then I have 45 pages in the front of books showing product and taking a deep dive into who makes it and how it's made, or utilizing the skill of interior designers to showcase things they've done and give the reader ideas. But our readers are also designers. I mean, listen, you know, interior designers read all the magazines. They're junkies for the magazines. How many interior designers have said, oh, I'm self taught. Where are they learning? They're learning from the inspiration of pictures, listing product, reading stories of how a house came together. I mean, they're not learning from going into homeowners houses and trying to figure out how to fix it. They're learning from the materials we put out. And listen, interior designers are the first people that say to me, I miss all the magazines. I miss the magazines. Because really then that's how you were.
- [24:36]
Unknown
Getting kind of immediate.
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Jill Cohen
I mean, the books are great, but the books are, you know, we shot them three years ago. It takes two years to do a book. The magazines are like, how are people living right now? And I think that's what's so fantastic about magazines. And I, and I feel, you know, disappointed when I'm reading a design magazine and it's focused on entertaining or tabletop or parties. And I'm like, where are the houses? Give everybody the houses. I mean, people listen, I said this before, but post Covid, we're all stuck in our houses a lot more than we want to be. We're sitting here on zoom so many days. Very few people go into an office every single day. And we want to change them up. It's boring to look at the same things. So I think everybody's hungry for house ideas and I think we wanna see more of it. There's not enough. And I think Instagram and those one shots, it's just a quick image.
- [25:42]
Unknown
Understood. I wanna come back to thinking about the changes that you've made to the magazine. So the January, February issues that are out now, many of which are on my lap as we speak. Jill. Starting to hurt, actually.
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Jill Cohen
Cause there's a lot of issues.
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Unknown
It's a lot of issues. But yeah, no, no, 14 original issues is a lot. But I'm curious in thinking about this font for the COVID now, in thinking about the layout and Design and being conscious of the fact that you do have 14 different regions that this is going into, did you. Did you have to spend a lot of time thinking about how is this going to land in all of these different markets? How do I create something that works universally for all of them? Tell me how you thought about it.
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Jill Cohen
Yes, absolutely. It was really six months, and it was the first thing. As soon as I got to, probably even before I started, I said to Adam, I want to redesign the covers. And he said, you know, go for it. And I knew immediately I really wanted to get rid of kind of the enormous white space at the top. Now, I know that was probably productive. When you're on a newsstand and you're seeing lots from far away and you see the logo and, you know, there was just a big white band behind it so you could see what you were getting. But the majority of the people getting the magazine are getting it in their home. And I wanted it to look beautiful. And I did get quite a bit of feedback when I took the job. I would say that everybody that wrote to me and all my book clients and everybody I knew in the industry was like, I know you're going to make it more beautiful. I mean, there was this expectation.
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Unknown
I was like, oh, my God, there's.
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Jill Cohen
A little pressure here.
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Unknown
Well, I was wondering about that. I mean, I was wondering if you were feeling pressure after all the books and everything that you've done. For so many designers, there was so much.
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Jill Cohen
So much pressure, because, listen, Lux is big and thick, happily. And so we're full of advertising. So, you know, when you see every other page, it's not going to look like a coffee table book, because, you know, every brand has a different identity. And some people do their ads, you know, in a full bleed way. Some people do, you know, grids. Some people have their logo all over it. They have pictures of people like, we can't. We can't control that, and I don't want to control it. We are. We are putting different standards in. I think our advertising community is certainly seeing the evolution of our design, and I'm getting a lot of feedback from our salespeople that people think it looks more beautiful, and they want more feedback on designing their ads, which makes me very happy, because my art department is working with me on redesigning our advertorial pages. And this is a process, Dennis, you will not see until our November, December issue this year, a full renovation of this house. And we embrace all styles, so I couldn't be too retro and I couldn't be too avant garde, and I felt like this was kind of beautiful and timeless. So it took a lot of playing, a lot of revising. But I have to say, when I finally had that moment where I had a dark screen and the 14 regions, I love the fact that each felt right in their place, and we work hard on that. Like, this is. Oh, this is classic Colorado. Look at that view. Oh, this is classic. Like, I really take great pains making sure that if you're at an airport and you're in Miami and you're like, ah, this is the ultimate Miami cover. So we mix it. We mix it up. I think more and more when I see the covers we chose for the next issue, I love them more than each issue is getting closer to what I envision. But I think this is like renovating a house. We started with the face, and we started with the front, and now we're going through the pages, and we, you know, refined our table of contents and our scene features and typography in the interior. And we're right now working on the. Well, with our borders and advertorial pages. So it's a full year renovation. I think who we really are and what you're going to love will reveal itself by the end of this year, because I have so much more information about what I want to achieve. And also, like I said, I broke some of the rules, and in the beginning, I didn't think I could.
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Unknown
Well, so when you say you have more information about what you want to achieve, tell me what that means.
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Jill Cohen
I know that our end goal is to have Lux be the primary resource for the design industry. And when I say the design industry, I mean designers, homeowners, you know, our advertising partners, everybody that works in the design industry. I feel like, you know, I want them to. They should rely on us. They should rely on us. But for me, my personal goal is to create the productivity through beautiful storytelling and visual, you know, eye candy, so that people are going away with information, but they've been kind of delighted with the, you know, experience. It's still an experience that, you know, you remember. Like, you'd come home, your subscription to your favorite magazine is there. You're like, oh, can't wait for that. I'm going to finish dinner and I'm going to, like, you know, get my cup of tea, my little reading light on. I'm gonna immerse myself and go back to it. And I used to savor it. You know, I'd go through half of a magazine and Say, I'm gonna save this for the weekend. You know, it's kind of like, you know, for me, it's like, I can't wait for the Sunday Times and sit there and figure out what time of the day I'm gonna immerse myself for an hour. People love that.
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Unknown
People love that.
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Jill Cohen
So I've been given the luxury of pages. I mean, that's a gift.
- [31:56]
Unknown
So in saying all that, wrap that up for me by telling me how you see Lux positioning itself relative to the other leading Shelter titles that come to mind. You were saying earlier that these magazines know who they are, know the lane that they're in. Tell me what lane you're in and how you compare yourself to the extent that you do to them.
- [32:25]
Jill Cohen
I would say that we're a design first magazine. That's our priority. But we're very attuned to the way people live today. The luxury lifestyle that's relatable, aspirational, beautiful. We're not a fantasy book. And I think that is a really important role to have for the whole design community and for the readers. Because, you know, fantasy's fun, but it's not that practical. I think practical, productive, and beautiful is something that I really want people to feel like they never want to miss an issue because they're really getting something out of it. I'm determined to do it. I'm determined to have us look different and beautifully productive. And also, I'm interested in part two of the Listening Tour, because feedback right.
- [33:28]
Unknown
Now, you're gonna get out there and you're gonna hear how all this landed for people.
- [33:31]
Jill Cohen
And, yeah, remember, I'm an old direct response person. I wanna know, did I move the needle? Did I move the needle? And if I did, I wanna do more of that, and if I didn't, I'm gonna change it up. We're staying very flexible.
- [33:48]
Unknown
I'm not, like, you're not wedded to any of this.
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Jill Cohen
Well, no, I'm wedded. I'm absolutely wedded to showcasing as many designers as possible and how they're doing creative work that's 100%. The more designers I can get in and that inspire us. I mean, designers teach designers. That's a reality. And even the young designers that have new creative ideas, they're waking up the older designers like, wow, I haven't tried that. And then the established designers are kind of showing a lot of things that are kind of the tried and true, masterful touches they do, and they're inspiring the younger designers. So it's like you can't get enough of that information in a couple of, well, features. You've really. So my gift is having these pages that are across all 480,000 copies. This is our whole front of book where the meat of the matter is going to be designers showcasing really creative work and ideas through the lens of professionals, inspiring the rest of the professional trade and the consumer. And I think tapping into that talent and showcasing it is going to benefit everybody in the ecosystem.
- [35:14]
Unknown
Getting back to this question of how you're distinguishing yourself from the other leading titles to some of your earlier points. If ad is about celebrity coverage, you're not that. If El Decor is about. I don't know, you tell me. What is Elle Decor? Is it more fashion focused than your magazine is likely to be?
- [35:39]
Jill Cohen
I don't know where it's going. I mean, obviously it's got a great history and a great, I don't know, brand identity. But obviously there's been a revolving door of editors. And I could tell you what I thought of the Elle Decor with Peggy and Michael there and maybe with Whitney, but it changes. So we're going to see what that is and what that develops into. There's always a lot of beautiful things in there, but I'm not sure what the brand identity is now. I think Jackie has identified what gallery is. She's done such a great job, and I think they definitely have a brand identity. When you have a magazine where you have a designer say, oh, I have a project that's perfect for Gallery, like, they know who they are and they've done a really nice job and nad knows who they are, and they're experimenting.
- [36:39]
Unknown
With a lot of.
- [36:40]
Jill Cohen
And I'm sure lots some of those things are working for them. I don't know. But it's still such a desirable place to be for the designers. For us, we're so much broader. I feel we're so much broader. And I'm not talking about the number of subscribers or how many clicks or how many people are following us on digital. I'm really talking about the dedication. It's really. You don't need 10 million views if you can have 1.7 million people who are addicted to design and reading everything you're doing. I'm happy with that. I'm happy with that. It's about the end result. It's about the return on investment. I call a return on investment, really Going on a listening tour in a year and having the designers and our advertising partners saying, you know, you're a first priority. You're a first priority because you're so productive for us. We rely on you. We have a relationship. We're a really big relationship company. I mean, you know, Kate Kelly Smith will tell you from the beginning, this is about relationships. Jill and I can go to a vendor. I can now go to one of our ad partners who's launching something very exciting and saying to her, I really want the exclusive on this. And I've been able to convince a very big advertiser to give me an exclusive because of the way I'm going to tell her story and making it a priority because I think it's an interesting story. I think it's going to be something that the design industry and all designers are going to be interested in. And I want to take the time to say, let me launch this for you because I think we could make it really productive and compelling and make a beautiful story that everybody wants to read. And what's gonna happen with that is I'm gonna have more people come to me saying, I want you to launch me. Because the way you did her story is the way I want my story told. And we have the pages to do it. That's the luxury. We have the pages to do it. So instead of being a magazine that says, well, we only have a limited number of pages, so we'll tell your story on digital and then maybe somebody will find it if they have time that day. We're doing it in the pages and they live for a lot longer. And then of course, yes, we'll do it on digital and maybe we'll even do a design TV thing and all those other beneficial things we have. And you'll be on our website too. But that's the gravy. It's not the, you know, it's not the core.
- [39:23]
Dennis Scully
We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Ernesta's designer quality custom size rugs are the foundation to an elevated space. Help your clients transform their homes by joining Ernesta's trade program. As a member of the Ernesta trade program, you'll get preferred pricing, free unlimited 12x12 samples and dedicated services such as a personal account manager and a trade only website. To learn more about joining this exclusive program, head to ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh and now back to the show.
- [40:08]
Unknown
So let's talk about the broader design media. Let's talk about some of your competition now that you've tried to position yourself within all this. First of all, I'm Curious, because you talk to so many designers, I'm curious the read of late about social media. So we talked a lot last year. Right now, you and I have talked about this social media fatigue. A lot of people were just sort of overwhelmed by the sameness of the algorithms, but also just designers just feeling a little exhausted from the demands on them to appear in various.
- [40:50]
Jill Cohen
They are exhausted.
- [40:51]
Unknown
I mean, Instagram has been such an unbelievable journey for all the interior designers. First we had people that said, well, I'm not going to embrace it. I'm very, you know, high end. I'm not showing myself at a party. And then there were people who really did it well and showed their work and got in early and posted frequently and got a big following. And unfortunately for so many of my authors, pitching authors to publishers, they want to know, how many followers do they have? Oh, they have 250,000 followers. Oh, good. We'll sell a lot of this book. And it kind of didn't matter if it was super high end or just very fun and easy and approachable. If there was a big audience, they would do it. So I think designers felt enormous pressure. And then the designers started coming out and saying, hey, I'm getting all of my work on Instagram.
- [41:50]
Jill Cohen
So a lot of the old school.
- [41:51]
Unknown
Designers I worked with were like, oh, my God, we've got to kick it up. We've got to hire somebody, We've got to do this. Oh, no, it has to be authentic. Oh, I have to post all day. Oh, I have to do behind the scenes. Oh, now I have to do stories. So once everybody started getting the rhythm and started getting business from Instagram and figuring it out, then Instagram went and switched the algorithm and only shows you to a small pocket of people.
- [42:17]
Jill Cohen
And it, you know, I think it.
- [42:18]
Unknown
Was a radical move and a disturbing one for sure, because I have clients that, you know, were doing other things on Instagram, you know, like, you know, selling things or. Or are marketing specific things on Instagram where all of a sudden their business slowed down. So it's the same old story that when everybody used to come to me and say, I need a book because I'm not getting enough attention, or the magazines are slipping away and I'm only getting in once a year, and I do 20 houses a year and I'm shooting 15 of them, I want to do a book. And certainly most of the people that I've done four books with, like Suzanne Castler or McAlpin or people that are very prolific or Gil, you know, yes, they're doing a lot of projects and shooting a lot, and, you know, they don't want to. They want their work to be seen.
- [43:15]
Yeah. And is there.
- [43:17]
Dennis Scully
Is there the same.
- [43:19]
Unknown
Is there the same return today for those books that there was even a few years ago? I mean, everybody seems to be doing books and lots of books, right? Are they getting the bang for the buck with those books?
- [43:33]
Jill Cohen
Is there still a return?
- [43:34]
Unknown
Okay, this is very interesting, but we find that, let's say our top 10 designers in book sales and, you know, people like Mark Sykes and Suzanne Kastler and Gil and, you know, Stan and some of our stars that have a.
- [43:49]
Jill Cohen
Great audience and do beautiful work, their.
- [43:52]
Unknown
Books consistently sell around the same numbers, believe it or not, and they work it. You know, they're touring all the time. They have a high visibility. They're producing really great work. They spend their money on photography. And I have had people that have done one book that did enough for them. Barbara Westbrook, I remember going to her a few years ago and saying, barbara, don't you want to do another book? She said, oh, my God, no. That tour killed me.
- [44:24]
Jill Cohen
Marketing myself was too much. And it did what I needed it to do.
- [44:28]
Unknown
It put her on the national stage.
- [44:31]
Dennis Scully
Right.
- [44:31]
Unknown
Okay, let's talk about the other shelter publications in the context of some of the decisions that their big publishing houses have made. One, paywalls, which surprised me to some extent that some of them went the paywall route at Hearst. And so a lot of the House Beautiful content or the El Decor content is now behind a paywall. And I wonder what you make of that. And if you've thought about that for Lux, and if Adam Sandow has wanted to do a paywall or not do a paywall or where do you come down?
- [45:11]
So first, I'll tell you, I'm a junkie for magazines. I love the other magazines. And, you know, I spent years and years working with all those editors. You know, I mean, they're all friends of mine. I have enormous respect for them, and I think they do a great job. You know, here's the thing. The editors don't own their companies. Okay? There are people, you know, above them saying, here's. Here's our direction, and this year we're going to go digital or we're going to do a paywall. I don't know how much say these editors have.
- [45:43]
No, no, I mean, I think I'm so glad that you said that because, I mean, I think that's a great point. I think it's been very clear from the messaging from the Hearst Corporation and the Conde Nast Corporation, that these shelter magazines are obviously not a huge contributor to the revenue of these huge corporations. Right. They're low down on the priority list. And if anything, it's pretty clear that they're just putting the squeeze to these poor, beleaguered, already small staffed, and now even smaller staffed shelter publications. Right?
- [46:21]
Yes. And I think that it's a digital world and those companies are very focused on digital, and I'm sure they're making lots of money on digital. But I will say that as a consumer and a junkie for everything that has to do with design, I stop at a paywall. I'm so overloaded with digital visuals. And when somebody sends me something and they say, hey, you have to see this, and I look at the first few pictures and then I've got to subscribe to buy the rest and go in, I just stop. It's like I'm on overload anyway. And so when I took this job, you know, I spent a lot of time talking to Adam and I said.
- [47:03]
Jill Cohen
Please don't, please don't block us.
- [47:07]
Unknown
Please, please, please don't make people spend money to get to see the rest of it.
- [47:12]
Jill Cohen
Because it's also good.
- [47:13]
Unknown
And I do think it's a deterrent and, and I think it's, I want to say short term thinking, but I could be wrong. I just think there's a volume of material and it's very expensive to produce it in print. I think running a print magazine that the subscription model is very expensive. I was at Conde Nast for many years and I was at Time Inc. So I know the economics. And you know, postage and paper is only increased, you know, and increased year after year. So somebody's got to pay the bills. And I think, I think this is really where, you know, where the challenge is. And listen, when we're, when we're in a period of time when the economy is booming and home buying is booming and people are shopping and filling their houses and moving constantly and the whole industry is flourishing, there's growth in all areas of the media. But when things are flat and home buying is not what we want it to be, you know, every company is looking for efficiencies. And I think, you know, one of the, one of the great things about working for Adam is that he's immersed in.
- [48:48]
Jill Cohen
This is his business.
- [48:49]
Unknown
The home industry is his business. Between, you know, Material bank and the Sandev Design Group and the magazines and his relationships with everybody in this industry.
- [49:01]
Jill Cohen
He's such a big supporter.
- [49:03]
Unknown
He's not looking to, you know, to put roadblocks for us.
- [49:09]
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting and making that point. I mean, I felt like. And you were talking about having worked for Conde Nast, and I remember Conde Nast acquiring Architectural Digest, for example, and there was such a cachet to that magazine. It was a very elevated title.
- [49:28]
Oh, my God. Yes, it was. I mean, Cy acquired. When I was working for him, he acquired Architectural Digest, Bon Appetit and the New Yorker. And it was like, you know, he felt like he had the, you know, the jewel and the crown. There's still a cachet. I mean, Conde Nast has such a history and, you know, of elegance and, you know, quality.
- [49:55]
Yeah. I mean, I think. To your point, I mean, I think back in the day working for Conde Nast, you knew you worked for someone who loved magazines. Cy Newhouse pored over every issue of every issue, and he loved magazines. And you understood that that was what it was all about. And it just seems to me. And I wonder what your perspective is. I mean, it seems like the big publishers today, Hearst, Conde Nast, the rest. I mean, it seems like design magazines just aren't meaningful enough revenue generators for them. So it's hard for them to care all that much when they've got lots of other different kinds of media. They're investing in lots of tech companies and other.
- [50:43]
I do think that it's a digital world. Most companies want to invest in technology and not in old media. But I do think there's a quality, and it's like couture will never go away. And I do think there is a. I think there is a return to the desire for print. There are more kind of artsy print magazines. I go to all the newsstands, all over the place, and I'm always surprised at the new kind of artistic magazines that come up. Photography and fashion and art. And I think there's a hunger for it. I think that's only gonna grow. I mean, listen, we're on our screens all day and the remote work. Life has put people in a situation where they're at home more than they want to be on the screen.
- [51:40]
Sure.
- [51:41]
And there's nothing like sitting and reading something physical and looking and being and experiencing. So I joked about 20 years ago when ebooks came out. Everybody said, oh, you better get a new career. You know, nobody is going to want.
- [52:00]
Jill Cohen
To print a book again.
- [52:01]
Unknown
You know, there's Kindle, you know, it's.
- [52:03]
Jill Cohen
All over.
- [52:07]
Unknown
And you see what happened There book business is still booming. And I think the magazine business, as long as we have committed owners, will continue to thrive. That's the question. Committed owners, exactly.
- [52:25]
And I don't sense that they're too committed to the shelter publications anyway. But I am curious at Architectural Digest. I mean, I feel like Architectural Digest is trying different things. The Ad Directory and Ad Pro. And they're trying to, it seems, put their name on a lot of different things. And I don't know if you think that's a good decision for them. Are they diluting their brand? Are they enhancing their brand? This new AD100 list with lots of seemingly young and upcoming firms versus a lot of more established and traditional firms. I don't know. Does all of that make sense to you?
- [53:07]
Well, I don't know the economics, so they keep that close to the vest. So I do think that all of the magazines try to capitalize on. On whatever can make money for them. And you see brands with licensing their name to hotels, to buildings.
- [53:35]
AD has a partnership with Ruggable.
- [53:38]
Ruggable. I know.
- [53:40]
Do you see a lux ruggable partnership in the future, Jill?
- [53:43]
Jill Cohen
I don't.
- [53:45]
Unknown
Okay. Not at this moment, but.
- [53:47]
All right, listen, I think. Yeah, I think.
- [53:53]
Go ahead.
- [53:53]
Jill Cohen
I was gonna say, let's look at.
- [53:55]
Unknown
A P and L and decide.
- [53:57]
Well, but that's the thing.
- [53:58]
Dennis Scully
Listen.
- [53:59]
Unknown
And maybe the pressure to bring in revenue is so great that they're like, yeah, we gotta do. I mean, I get it. There's enormous pressure. I mean, the celebrity coverage is obviously a pressure. The. To respond to newsstand sales and to get great video content and. Right. I mean, I assume that that's what it's all about.
- [54:21]
Well, you know, back when I was at Conde Nest, I did all the brand extension, so I was doing New Yorker cartoon books. I was doing New Yorker umbrellas, T shirts, diaries.
- [54:40]
Yeah, those were a lot of beloved products.
- [54:43]
A lot of products. I think at the end of the day, the bottom line is, is it a distraction? Is it a lot of work and a lot of effort and a lot of people involved? And does the money that it brings to the bottom line, if it brings anything, does it enhance the reputation of the brand? And Cy Newhouse used to always say that, you know, we're only doing books if it enhances the reputation of the brand. And that's why we started that Gourmet series, because it put Gourmet on a much, I think, more national platform. And the books were hugely successful. And it's all about staying on brand. And I Think that's a big message that came through from my listening tour and speaking to people that manufacture product. Everybody's very focused on their brand identity and they want to know where they fit. They want to know what the perception is. And I think when times are flat and people are looking for growth, they want to know, gee, should we be doing a more down market line? Should we be doing an upmarket line? And I don't think it's any different with the magazines. People are looking for profitability and they're like, let's experiment with this model. And I think just to comment on ad, that they know the value of that logo and they know the value of putting it on, you know, attaching it to designers. Designers feel there's a value and so they're capitalizing on that.
- [56:21]
So with that in mind and as we wrap up. So now that you're the editor in chief of a magazine versus years ago when clients were no doubt coming to you and saying, is it worth me waiting for this project to even be selected, nevermind published by a publication? A process that as you know, might well take a year, maybe longer and is it still worth it today? Are we going to look back in a few years and designers say, God, I can't believe I used to wait a year or two years with my project before it ever even getting out there.
- [57:02]
Okay, so this is a really, really interesting question because we are a very long lead magazine and I see a project, I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe we're on May issues already. You know, March, April's on press, June, Jan, Feb's out. Like we're designing May issues. So somebody submits something, I'm like, oh God, they've got to wait till July, you know, And I feel terrible. But I also know because I pitched to all the magazines over the last 15 years. I mean, all of the national magazines have either six or eight or sometimes four or very few spots, right?
- [57:39]
Yeah.
- [57:40]
Jill Cohen
So if you're getting in, you might.
- [57:42]
Unknown
Not be getting until next year. So designers used to say to me, I don't know, should I wait? Well, my attitude always is if you're getting print, wait. So I think the value of digital is. And I think a lot of people decide, you know what, I'm just going to let it go on digital and it'll be out in a month or I'm just going to put it on my Instagram. But I honestly feel like it doesn't get looked at the same way.
- [58:11]
Jill Cohen
I really do.
- [58:12]
Unknown
I Feel like if I'm looking at a great room on Instagram, I end up wanting to screenshot it and blow it up and look at it, and I can't really see it the way I'm not going to go to my computer and then put it on a large screen so I can evaluate it.
- [58:27]
Jill Cohen
But.
- [58:28]
Unknown
But I do think that the designers love seeing their work in print. I think it's more valuable. I honestly do. And I think there's something lasting about it, too. I know it lasts forever on the Internet, but the truth is, there are a billion pictures.
- [58:48]
Jill Cohen
There's such a content overload. I also think that because print is.
- [58:55]
Unknown
So selective, there's a little bit of an honor to be selected, knowing that, let's say, in your region, There are only 40 houses a year that we're going to run, and we get hundreds of submissions. It's kind of. It says something. And I think our competition, like, my competition is not that somebody is submitting to another magazine and deciding between us and them. My competition is, should they put it on Instagram tomorrow? Really? That's the issue.
- [59:25]
Well, exactly. I mean, and that's what I'm trying to get at. I mean, if I'm a designer and I've got this amazing project and I can't wait for people to see it. And as we were talking about earlier, you've heard from so many designers how much business they're getting from Instagram. I've heard from designers how much business they're getting from Instagram. I'm thinking, yeah, I get why that's a tough call for you. Jill just told you she's not even going to be able to put you in until July, and that's at the earliest. And so.
- [59:50]
Well, I will tell you this. This is what I do when we.
- [59:53]
Jill Cohen
When we see a project that we.
- [59:54]
Unknown
Love and, you know, we're all over the moon, we say, okay, the editor who got the submission will call the designer, and I will say to them, tell them, we're already in May, June, and we have never had anybody come back to say, I'm not waiting four months. I'm putting it on my Instagram. Never.
- [60:14]
Well, because four months, it doesn't sound like a lot. I mean, a lot of times these designers are being told, no, no, no, you're not even going to hear back from us in four months.
- [60:22]
Well, we do. And that happens. So if we're getting some incredible beach house in October, and I say, listen, this is going to look great in July, I'm not Running it in January. Ask them if they're okay about waiting. And I will say that they want to know, well, are you definitely taking it?
- [60:43]
Right, Right. Are you taking it, or.
- [60:45]
Yeah, I think, you know, one of the challenges, and I had this when I was doing the books, is they're not alone in the project.
- [60:52]
Jill Cohen
Oftentimes I'll say, listen, I can wait. But the architect wants to put it.
- [60:55]
Unknown
On their website tomorrow.
- [60:57]
Dennis Scully
Right.
- [60:57]
Unknown
You know, what do we do then? Or the homeowner might sell the house. I mean, that's a problem for us. We won't run it if the house gets sold.
- [61:04]
And what's that about? So you won't run it if the house gets sold? Because what.
- [61:08]
Dennis Scully
What is.
- [61:09]
Unknown
What does that mean? What do you care that the house got sold?
- [61:11]
Jill Cohen
Oh, we care because legally, there are so many legal issues.
- [61:15]
Unknown
I mean, part of the expense of running a magazine is that we take a lot of risk and we can have a situation where somebody says, oh, listen, I bought this house. I never gave you permission.
- [61:27]
Jill Cohen
That was my predecessor.
- [61:29]
Unknown
And, you know, you ran it in May, they submitted it in November, and now I'm living here. So part of our vetting, I mean, we're very careful. We interview the homeowners. Everybody has to sign off.
- [61:42]
Jill Cohen
Husband and wife or partners.
- [61:44]
Unknown
Everyone who lives in the house has to sign off. And we do an interview as close to the printing time as possible. And then we are also looking at the houses. I will tell you that my executive editor has come to me several times.
- [62:01]
Jill Cohen
To say, guess what?
- [62:04]
Unknown
I mean, last month we accepted a house, and two months ago, and we saw it on Zillow, the pictures that we were running, and we don't want to run that.
- [62:17]
Jill Cohen
It could be sold.
- [62:18]
Unknown
Somebody else could be living there. And then we have other issues where somebody. This happens a lot, where somebody says.
- [62:24]
Jill Cohen
Oh, you know, I also submitted to so and so and didn't realize they.
- [62:28]
Unknown
Were running it, but it just came out in this kind of small architectural magazine.
- [62:32]
Dennis Scully
Wow.
- [62:33]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [62:34]
No, so, you know, we pulled that, too. So, I mean, really, to give the pages. There has to be a mutual respect that, you know, we're looking for exclusivity, and we have to trust that it matters to them and our. You know, and that we're not showing material that's been published.
- [62:56]
Well, so, I mean, you talk about your competition being them, putting it on Instagram or somewhere else. I mean, do you think of yourself as going head to head with AD and Eldacor and all the rest. Is that how you.
- [63:12]
No, I really don't.
- [63:13]
Jill Cohen
And you know what's really crazy?
- [63:15]
Unknown
I feel like all of us have our own lane. Somebody will submit to me, and oftentimes.
- [63:20]
Jill Cohen
I'll say, you know what, this is a great project.
- [63:22]
Unknown
And I'll say to a publicist, this.
- [63:24]
Jill Cohen
Is a great project.
- [63:25]
Unknown
But I see it more in gallery or it seems like more of a fit to veranda. Because when I was pitching projects and working with designers, there are designers that are associated with magazines that their style is just the right fit. We have a brand identity, and I think it's one that people love that have multiple houses and fancy houses and people love that have kind of beautiful suburban houses.
- [63:58]
Right. So with this big redesign and with some of the changes that you've made after year one, what do you hope comes out of some of these changes? What do you hope the net effect is of the changes that you've made? And what sort of changes do you have your eye on now that you've made some of these changes?
- [64:25]
Jill Cohen
What I hope comes out of it.
- [64:27]
Unknown
Is a recognition from the industry that Lux is a centerpiece to the design industry, that it's a key partner. I really want to feel like Lux is the great American magazine because you can find everything in American design and European design, because of course, we fill the pages with houses that have things from all over the world. But we have so many people that come to me and say, Lux is my number one place. It's where I want to submit. It's where I want to see my projects. I feel like a win would be for more and more designers to feel that way. So I think bigger, stronger, and more beautiful.
- [65:23]
Jill Cohen
Isn't that what we all want?
- [65:25]
Unknown
Right? Who doesn't want that?
- [65:27]
Jill Cohen
That's my New Year's resolution.
- [65:28]
Unknown
Bigger, stronger, and more beautiful. Well, congratulations to you on your first year and congratulations on the exciting, beautiful new redesign. And I hope it delivers on its promise. And with, we look forward to checking back in with you again soon.
- [65:45]
Jill Cohen
Thank you so much, Dennis.
- [65:47]
Unknown
It's always a pleasure having a conversation with you.
- [65:51]
Dennis Scully
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.