Lawson-Fenning doesn't sweat the copycats

Summary

Business of Home Podcast Summary: Lawson-Fenning Doesn't Sweat the Copycats

Introduction

In the March 3, 2025 episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully engages in an insightful conversation with Glenn Lawson and Grant Fenning, the visionary founders of the Los Angeles-based furniture brand Lawson Fenning. Renowned for their intricate designs and commitment to quality, Lawson Fenning has recently embarked on an exciting expansion to New York, collaborating with industry giants DWR and CB2. This episode delves into their entrepreneurial journey, strategic growth, challenges with copycats, and their steadfast dedication to maintaining brand integrity.

Early Beginnings and Founding of Lawson Fenning

Glenn Lawson and Grant Fenning's foray into the furniture industry began in the late 1990s as adept vintage furniture pickers. Both artists from art school backgrounds, they leveraged their passion for design to curate and refurbish vintage pieces, gradually building a reputable presence within the Los Angeles design community.

Grant Fenning [03:00]: "We were in art school, designing, furniture, making product, having fun and we sort of accidentally stumbled into this business."

Their initial success came from utilizing student loans to purchase and renovate furniture, which they sold at local markets like the Rose Bowl. This grassroots approach not only honed their design skills but also established a loyal customer base.

Grant Fenning [04:20]: "We sold everything within an hour to people on roller skates with flashlights and the early morning crowd. This is pre-eBay, sort of pre-Internet online shopping. So we were sold out by the time the Rose Bowl actually opened."

Organic Growth and Establishing a Client Base

Transitioning from market stalls to a permanent retail space in Old Town Pasadena marked a pivotal moment for Lawson Fenning. The unplanned but serendipitous choice of a retail-facing location allowed passersby to discover their unique offerings organically.

Glenn Lawson [05:22]: "We've never really had... very eclectic locations over the years and we have had very little signage. We've never had any marketing, we've never done sales."

This strategy of minimal marketing and reliance on word-of-mouth referrals attracted notable designers and celebrities such as Michael Smith, Kelly Werster, Paul Fortune, Carrie Joyce, and Madeline Storm. Their commitment to letting the product speak for itself resonated deeply within the design community.

The Significance of the New York Market

Recognizing the substantial demand from New York clients—who accounted for 20-30% of their yearly sales—Lawson Fenning strategically planned their expansion to the East Coast. Although an initial attempt to open a showroom in the West Village was thwarted by the COVID-19 pandemic, the brand persevered, ensuring they had the production capacity to maintain quality during the expansion.

Grant Fenning [17:41]: "There's a lot of lease negotiating, and then 2020 hit and we were able to sort of exit that deal and didn't have to open in the midst of a pandemic, thank God."

Ultimately, opening the New York showroom became a testament to their adaptability and dedication, with over half of their business now stemming from the tri-state area.

Dealing with Copycats and Market Challenges

As Lawson Fenning's designs gained popularity, the challenge of copycats emerged. Grant Fenning acknowledges this as an inherent part of the business, especially when their innovative pieces garner attention.

Grant Fenning [27:19]: "If your work is exciting or interesting, people are going to copy it. And we try to keep it fresh and move on."

To combat this, Lawson Fenning pivoted towards the hospitality sector, entering BDNY for the first time. By offering licensed designs and emphasizing quality and customization, they aim to appeal to hospitality clients who might otherwise resort to cheaper imitations.

Grant Fenning [28:15]: "If we can offer them a better price point at scale, if we can offer them sort of unlimited customization, suddenly we've sort of cracked the code and are able to jump into a different market."

Collaboration with CB2: Designing for a Different Market

One of the standout initiatives discussed in the episode is Lawson Fenning's collaboration with CB2. Tasked with creating a more affordable line, Lawson Fenning approached this partnership with openness and creativity, designing over 200 pieces without being constrained by CB2’s existing brand specifications.

Grant Fenning [30:35]: "CB2 is like, hey, you want to design 150 pieces. So we're like, sounds great."

This collaboration allowed them to explore new materials and styles, pushing the boundaries of their traditional designs while maintaining their signature aesthetic. The partnership not only broadened their market reach but also enriched their design repertoire.

Grant Fenning [32:27]: "We have just total control over what we wanted to present as long as it hit sort of their, you know, they needed lighting, they needed, you know, textiles, everything."

Branding and Maintaining Brand Integrity

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the importance of branding. Lawson Fenning emphasizes that a strong, consistent brand is crucial for recognition and success, citing RH (Restoration Hardware) as a model for effective brand establishment.

Grant Fenning [42:43]: "I think the thing they do so well is they've really created a brand. And that was something we looked at early on was it's Holistic."

The founders attribute their success to maintaining a clear and focused brand identity, which has been meticulously shaped with the help of mentors and brand strategists like Shawn Yasher.

Grant Fenning [45:27]: "What do you want people to remember? Who are you? What's the brand. What does it look like, feel like?"

Their collaboration with Disc Interiors and other like-minded designers further reinforces their brand, ensuring that every new piece aligns with their core values and aesthetic.

Future Plans and Expansion

Looking ahead, Lawson Fenning plans to continue their methodical growth, focusing on maintaining quality and creativity rather than rapid expansion. They are exploring additional product lines such as lighting and outdoor furniture, leveraging advancements in materials to innovate within these categories.

Grant Fenning [55:04]: "We are going to try to expand that outdoor line and shoot it off site. And even though we won't be able to hold a lot of it in our two retail stores, people will hopefully trust us and buy it."

Their cautious yet optimistic approach ensures that each step forward is measured and sustainable, allowing them to remain connected to their clients and maintain their high-touch business model.

Conclusion

The episode encapsulates Lawson Fenning's journey from vintage furniture enthusiasts to a respected name in the interior design industry. Their strategic expansion, resilience against market challenges, and unwavering commitment to brand integrity serve as a blueprint for aspiring entrepreneurs. Glenn Lawson and Grant Fenning exemplify how passion, adaptability, and a clear vision can drive sustained success in a competitive landscape.

Notable Quotes

• Grant Fenning [02:58]: "We didn't really know what that looked like. But we did need studio space."

• Glenn Lawson [05:35]: "We've never really had any marketing, we've never done sales. It's just sort of an in the know, kind of word of mouth thing."

• Grant Fenning [15:40]: "I think being able to make a custom sofa at the price point we make it at is a bit of a unicorn in the industry."

• Glenn Lawson [34:22]: "What do designers tell you is important to them?"

• Glenn Lawson [43:44]: "What do you think has made you memorable and more successful than many who have tried?"

This episode provides a comprehensive look into the ethos and operational strategies of Lawson Fenning, offering valuable lessons on sustainable growth, brand building, and navigating industry challenges.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guests this week are Glenn Lawson and Grant Fenning, the founders of the Los Angeles furniture brand Lawson Fenning. In the late 1990s, Glenn and Grant made a reputation for themselves as canny vintage pickers. Over time their own designs came to the forefront and the two became a trusted resource for top LA designers. Now Lawson Fenning is opening up an outpost in New York, collaborating with DWR and CB2. I spoke with Glenn and Grant about purposely staying a little under the radar, getting advice from famous designers earlier in their career, and their strategy for dealing with copycats and dupes. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta, your destination for designer quality custom size rugs with a curated assortment of timeless colors, patterns and textures. Ernesta will deliver the right size rug in the style your client wants in only two to four weeks. And with Ernesta's exclusive trade membership benefits, you can get dedicated support, free unlimited samples and special discounts to help you achieve your clients design goals. To join Ernesta's trade program visit ernesta.com boh this podcast is also sponsored by Krypton Designers looking for a premier domestic upholstery vendor that offers concierge service, complementary crypton fabric samples and dedicated project assistants are invited to explore Row Furniture's exceptional trade program. Customize your perfect piece with crypton fabrics in an array of stunning colors and styles, seamlessly blending beauty, durability and comfort. With Rowe's trade program you can anticipate a truly stress free experience. Each piece of furniture is meticulously hand inspected and photos of your customized orders are sent before shipping, ensuring you stay informed without any hassle. And pricing includes freight to your receiver, simplifying the ordering process. For more information about the program, visit rowfurniture.com join and now on with the show.

[Glenn Lawson]

I'm so curious. Thinking back through the ups and downs.

[Dennis Scully]

Of the business, is there a tale.

[Glenn Lawson]

From the annals that tells us something.

[Grant Fenning]

About the business we start at the very beginning? So Grant and I didn't go to business school. We didn't have a business plan. We were in art school, designing, furniture, making product, having fun and we sort of accidentally stumbled into this business which is sort of an interesting tale. I think we were both new to la.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I had come from New York, Grant.

[Grant Fenning]

Had come from North Carolina and we discovered the treasure that is Southern California architecture and design with a definite interest in the mid century which is Something I think neither one of us had fully experienced until moving here. And we jumped right in and started buying furniture to furnish our apartments, going to flea markets, going to thrift stores, you know, doing that whole thing. And suddenly Grant had a garage full of furniture. We were in school, we were like, what are we doing? Let's use our student loan money and, you know, try to wait, what?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Good old Fannie Mae.

[Grant Fenning]

And try to double down on this. Let's buy some more furniture. Let's fix it up. Let's, you know, give it our vision and see if we can sell it. So we did that. We leaned in, we bought some more furniture and we put it on our.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Pickup truck and we drove to the.

[Grant Fenning]

Rose bowl and we sold everything within an hour to people on roller skates with flashlights and the early morning crowd. This is pre ebay, sort of pre Internet online shopping. So we were sold out by the time the Rose bowl actually opened. And we're like, okay, that was a success. So we did it the next month and we're like, you know, sold out again very quickly and started talking to, you know, some people who were like, you should, you know, maybe do this a little bit more real, you know, try to maybe do a store or something. So we, you know, didn't really know what that looked like.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But we did need studio space.

[Grant Fenning]

We were getting sick of working out of Grant's garage and we were also.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Working on school projects.

[Grant Fenning]

We were building furniture for school. So we decided to rent a small space in Old Town Pasadena. That was the only thing we could afford. Very tiny, literally a one room closet, you know, scenario. And we started just working on furniture.

[Unnamed Speaker]

In there and we opened the doors.

[Grant Fenning]

As luck would have it, it was a retail facing space on a sort of side street in Old Town. And people just started walking in, asking questions, asking if they could buy it. And within a few months, we had a very busy furniture store that we.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Had not planned on.

I mean, within the first year, we did have people wandering in that, you know, we had Michael Smith come and we had Kelly Werster come in and, you know, for. For us that, you know, that they were celebrities. I mean, that was. It was.

[Glenn Lawson]

So you knew who they were.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We did, we did Paul Fortune, you know, we had Carrie Joyce, Madeline Storm. We definitely.

[Glenn Lawson]

Wow.

[Unnamed Speaker]

People. People found us and we were sort of. I think it was a part of. It's always been kind of a little bit of a ethos of lost and fending. Is this sort of under the radar? You know, I think we started that way. It's. I think it's. Well, we, we've never really had. Even then we had retail spaces and we've had, we've had them. We've never really been in sort of a design center area. We've always been a little. I mean, right now our, our space on Melrose is probably the closest to it, but we've had some pretty eclectic locations over the years and we have had very little signage. We've never had any marketing, we've never done sales. It's just sort of an in the know, kind of word of mouth thing. And I think that it just suited us. You know, I think Glenn and I both enjoyed furniture and designing and, but. But also really didn't want to be in the limelight at all or wasn't about us being known as more about the product. Always been about the designs and the builds and the product.

[Glenn Lawson]

So you didn't want to be the frontman of this operation and be the, be these big personalities and greeting people at the door and the whole thing? No, that wasn't.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We love people. We love.

[Glenn Lawson]

We love people. But also. No thanks. No thanks. Leave that to others. So the word of mouth, it seemed, got around and luckily that worked.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes, absolutely.

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We got some really great clients very.

[Grant Fenning]

Early on that were really integral to our business. That taught us a lot about design, that taught us a lot about Southern California architecture. And we got some great people in.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Early on and some great advice.

[Grant Fenning]

People were very happy to have us in the community. And I think we were really lucky to get some great advice early on from some pretty great people.

[Glenn Lawson]

So what advice did they share with you? What was some of this great advice?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I mean, it could be as simple.

[Grant Fenning]

As Cary Joyce, who's one of our longest standing clients, we found us very early on.

[Glenn Lawson]

Super nice guy.

[Grant Fenning]

Carrie's great and you know, come in and just, you know, sort of in.

[Unnamed Speaker]

His way, just be like, you need ottomans.

[Grant Fenning]

You don't have any ottomans. Like where's, you know, people like to.

[Glenn Lawson]

Put their feet up. How's that happen?

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah, like, why is this couch like, like this? And you know, sort of the sort.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Of trial by error with, with designs.

[Grant Fenning]

I mean, we, we knew what we knew, but, you know, we started this when we were in our early 20s and we were learning how to design furniture as we were selling it. So we got a lot of advice from some great people who were telling.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Us proportions and what their clients were.

[Grant Fenning]

Looking for and what, you know, sort of the end user, you know, having that much Interaction with the end user. We really got to know what people.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Look for, how they shop, what they like, how they sit on a sofa, what's important to them.

[Grant Fenning]

It was really a great learning experience for us to be sort of in.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The trenches with our clients every day.

[Grant Fenning]

We worked seven days a week. We were open all seven days and, and you know, having a lot of. A lot of interaction with a lot of people. And it was, it was really a good experience for us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It was like a workshop. We got to put our product out. We would make prototypes and put them out and. And we would just ask people, what do you think? And you know, even if we didn't know that they were, you know, people in the design community that.

Right.

They just. Any consumer that came in that wanted to give us an opinion, it was great because we would get all different sizes and shapes and. And people who. I wanted to use it this way and that way. So it was like a workshop. We could just put it in there and we would change things. You know, we would learn and we would change things for the client.

[Glenn Lawson]

So tell me about making the leap from buying all these pieces and selling them at the Rose bowl and other thrift locations to actually designing furniture and really getting into that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, we were both, I mean, we were both always first furniture designers and we met at Art Center College of Design in Pasadena in the industrial design department, which is. Which is emphasis was on, you know, product design and furniture. I mean, as Glenn said, we were really influenced by the, you know, mid century, these, these, these designers that. That we were learning about that were mostly from California. I mean, I think originally we were. We were. And then we also. We would. We definitely some of the Danish masters as well. And you know, their proportions are you. I mean, you can learn so much by studying those pieces. And then we were, you know, we were building furniture. We had. There's an amazing shop at Art center and that's where we spent all of our time. So we were building then and always interested. And from the first days we put our own furniture in there. We still have a couple pieces in our line now that were in the. Probably the first year of the store were there in the shop really.

[Glenn Lawson]

So some early pieces that are still popular today?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Definitely, yes.

[Grant Fenning]

25 years later.

[Glenn Lawson]

Yeah, that says quite a lot. Because it's tough. And it's tough. I mean, as we've talked about in the past, it's tough nailing the seat and the comfort level. And I remember when I was working in a custom upholstery place, designers would come in and, no, this one's not right. And, no, this is too deep. And why is this arm here like this? And, I mean, there were a hundred reasons why it was the totally wrong piece every time. So it's hard to nail.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's very hard.

[Grant Fenning]

And we were really lucky in that we were able to kind of adjust things on the fly. We'd bring a chair in, we'd get sort of all of this feedback.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We would change it slightly, we'd get more feedback, we'd change it again.

[Grant Fenning]

We were really lucky in that we were able to be very nimble and work things as. As we were launching them. So we were able to just make pieces one at a time because we were working on them ourselves, and we were able to adjust them very quickly to meet the needs of our clients.

[Glenn Lawson]

I mean, had you guys really talked this through? Hey, this is going to be great. We're going to open this shop together. We're going to build this. No, no.

[Dennis Scully]

So that.

[Glenn Lawson]

That wasn't even that. So that just happened?

[Unnamed Speaker]

No planning? No.

[Grant Fenning]

There was no business plan? There was no.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No, no. Like, sort of, what. What are we going to do in a year from now? I mean, it was just. It was, you know, just having fun. Really?

[Grant Fenning]

It was fun, yeah. In fact, as. As I was graduating, which is, I think, year two of our business, I was getting recruited by, like, large corporate, you know, companies that would come to campus and recruit the product designers. And there was this, like, moment where, you know, I was very seriously considering, you know, it was a big job. It was a big move. And I was saying to Grant, am.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I doing, like, what are we doing? Am I doing this?

[Grant Fenning]

Am I doing that? Like, what's happening? And I think that's when we really leaned in to say, okay, let's. Let's really make this happen. We're graduating. We're done with school. Let's just kind of focus on this and see what happens. That was kind of the turning point.

[Glenn Lawson]

And how'd your family feel about that at the time, Glenn, when you told them you were turning down some job from some big old company and they were dead.

[Grant Fenning]

So happy. My family is. I'm from Wisconsin, and I come from.

[Unnamed Speaker]

A long line of old hippies.

[Grant Fenning]

And they were very, very happy that I wasn't going to work for the man.

[Glenn Lawson]

For the man.

[Grant Fenning]

Okay, that's great.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Grant Fenning]

They were always encouraging of sort of my creative pursuits, and I think they. They saw what we were doing as a real creative pursuit and that I wasn't sort of beholden to any.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Anything else.

[Glenn Lawson]

I love that.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so.

[Glenn Lawson]

So granted you have that same luxury as well, that family was behind you or not quite the same dynamic to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Some degree, always supportive, but also very far away. So I, you know, I felt the independence and being able to make my own decisions.

[Glenn Lawson]

So it sounds like, and let's not call it an overnight success, but it sounds like you were getting good feedback, you were having fun, you were designing some pieces, putting them on the floor, getting feedback, positive feedback. It sounds like. Was there a moment where something just really started to take off and you could see what this really could become?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Grant Fenning]

So post graduation, we decided to really lean in and we came up with a collection of, I don't know, Grant, was it maybe eight pieces at the beginning?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Eight to ten?

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah, yeah, eight to ten.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like a fully worked out line of.

[Grant Fenning]

Upholstery and some case goods and tables. And we decided to sort of put our money together and get a space, a booth at ICFF. So we launched in 2001, our first fleshed out furniture collection at ICFF. And it was the first time we had left LA with our pieces to sort of hit the road and see how they did. And that was a big turning point for us. That was a really good show for.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Us and we had a lot of eyes on it, a lot of orders and we never had to do it again.

[Grant Fenning]

We did it that one year and that was it.

[Glenn Lawson]

Oh, really?

[Grant Fenning]

So one and done.

[Glenn Lawson]

So that made enough of an impact.

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah, yeah, it was a really, it was a really big impact. And that was really our first introduction to New York and that client. And, you know, so they embraced us really wholeheartedly.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, I mean, we've, we've luckily been, you know, been supported by New York clients ever since. And we've, we've. We've consistently had 20 to 30% of our yearly sales have gone to the New York tri state area.

[Glenn Lawson]

I asked a designer recently who shops with you a lot, what he thought it was that you were able to do. And one of the things that he raised, interestingly enough, was he thought your price point hit this sweet spot relative to where high point furniture was coming in. And he talked about it being surprisingly affordable for the quality that you were just referring to. And he thinks that's a big part of what sort of made it work. I don't know if you think of it that way or if that resonates, but absolutely, yeah.

[Grant Fenning]

I think being able to make a custom sofa at the price point we make it at is a bit of a unicorn in the industry.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We customize absolutely everything about our pieces.

[Grant Fenning]

So designers love that they can come to us with com. Different wood finishes, custom wood finishes, custom lengths, anything they want, and it's made in California for them. And at a price point that I think is very friendly for that quality and that level of customization.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's always been important to us to have a sort of an approachable price. I mean, I do think that that's one of the tenets that we took from, you know, from mid century modernism and from, from that era was that, you know, things should be approachable. And, and so it's kind of stuck with this. I mean, things get more expensive as, as you, as you grow bigger and as you, as you, you know, refine your quality. But we've always, we've always kept sight of that and tried to keep our prices really as reasonable as we could.

[Grant Fenning]

We saw that early on. I mean, we, we've always designed for ourselves. We've always been our target customer.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And when we were younger, you know, we're not buying $5,000 sofas.

[Grant Fenning]

That's not what our sort of friend group was buying. That's not what, you know, sort of our community was buying. So we really leaned into like, what.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Would we buy, what would we want.

[Grant Fenning]

How much would we want it to cost and what can we afford? What can our friends afford? That was always a big tenant of our pieces early on. So as we grew up, you know, the price point grew up with us. But I, I still think we, we try to keep it as friendly as possible.

[Glenn Lawson]

So let's talk about New York because. So you mentioned that you won over New York early on at icff and those customers stayed with you for a long time. It sounds like New York was such an important market that you thought, finally, let's come to New York and you've just opened the showroom. Now, from what you've told me before, it sounds like we almost did that several years earlier. Yes. Tell me that story.

[Grant Fenning]

Yes. In 2019, the year of our Lord that we all remember so well.

[Glenn Lawson]

Yes, we were simpler times those days.

[Grant Fenning]

We were ready to pull the trigger on a really great space in the West Village. And it all lined up and ready to go. And there was a slight pause. There was a lot of lease negotiating, and then 2020 hit and we were able to sort of exit that deal and didn't have to open in the midst of a pandemic, thank God. So it took us a few years then the intervening years happened and we.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Were finally able to sort of get.

[Grant Fenning]

To a place where we had the bandwidth again to start looking at spaces.

[Glenn Lawson]

And all the while the amount of business that was coming from New York was, I assume, so meaningful that it.

[Dennis Scully]

Just made all the sense in the world to be here.

[Grant Fenning]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. It's always made sense to us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

From the very beginning, it's made sense.

[Grant Fenning]

And as the years have gone on, it's that that market share has grown to be, you know, pretty much half of our business. So it, it made sense that, you know, we should be there. And we have emails every day from clients asking where, where can we sit in this? Where can we see it? And, you know, we had a few great designers saying, hey, you're really doing yourselves a disservice because once my clients get these pieces, I can sell them all day. Like they love them, like, but if you could just show them to them.

[Unnamed Speaker]

They would buy even more.

[Grant Fenning]

You know, we could, you know, sort of respect them more. And you're doing yourself a disservice because the quality is so important and you're.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Not seeing that online necessarily.

[Grant Fenning]

It's an in person experience.

[Glenn Lawson]

Yeah, I mean, and as you were saying earlier, Glenn, that sort of notion of one and done, I mean, so often they do only need to come that one time to write, to sit and to see the quality and then. Sure, we'll spec you all day long once we, once we get it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, I think that the pause, I think the break between 2020 and now and opening, I think, was also just catching up with. We had such a incred boost in production through the pandemic and we really had to catch up to that and also prepare for sort of more production. And so we bolstered. We spent all last year, really, last year and a half sort of creating some redundancies in production and really bolstering our production. So we felt, you know, if we open this store in New York and we double our production, we're good, we can still offer the same quality, the same lead times, the same service. It was really important to us that we didn't cripple ourselves or hobble ourselves in any way by expansion because we try to grow pretty. We've always grown fairly slowly. We've consistently grown about 10% a year and felt very comfortable with that. And then 2021 hit and I think we've quadrupled. That was a bit of catch up, but it was exciting and we've got a lot larger staff and crew now and A lot larger production. Everything's been expanded. We still have a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful people, but a lot more to juggle.

[Dennis Scully]

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[Glenn Lawson]

Tell me how you think about this post Covid era. So I'm talking to a designer the other day who says, please bring back 2021 or please bring back this wild time that now I'm trained for, I'm ready for. But it doesn't feel as though it's coming back. I don't know if it's ever coming back in our lifetime. That insane level of demand that you guys were certainly experiencing, that the industry experienced. How do you, how do you think about that time relative to now and, and whether, whether you think about, oh, I got to get ready because this could be the year it all comes back to that level.

[Grant Fenning]

I hope it doesn't go back to that level. I think that was a little crazy. You know, we had people just buying anything that wasn't nailed down and some things that were and it just, it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Got a little frantic for us.

[Grant Fenning]

And I think that that's not a.

[Unnamed Speaker]

A world we wanted to live in.

[Grant Fenning]

I think slow growth for us has always been really important. Being able to manage everything because we are so hands on.

[Unnamed Speaker]

There's such a high touch with our product.

[Grant Fenning]

So that level of expansion that quickly.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Was a little uncomfortable for us. So we're much, much better in this.

[Grant Fenning]

Phase of, you know, sort of the world where we can really grow smartly and slowly.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That's, that's our comfort level.

[Grant Fenning]

Like we really want to be able to manage everything and not, and not.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Be overextended and not be wiped out.

Yeah, we've never, we've never Taken on any capital, We've never taken on any investment. We've. We've always managed to run. We've never run any credit even. I mean, we're sort of. We're cleared up every month. We've. We've just always felt like that was the comfortable spot for us was. Was not having any debt. And I think that the idea of having to produce that much would probably, if it was sustained like that, we would probably have to take on some capital.

[Glenn Lawson]

So you never even drew down a credit line from a bank or something? You never even. Even during the crazy Covid all backed up time, we did all the paperwork.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And had it there. It was ready and waiting, but we never dove in. And I'm happy we didn't. I think it was a smart choice for us and to really keep everyone happy and keep all the wonderful people at our company. And I think the growth rate was just perfect for us.

[Glenn Lawson]

What's informing that way of thinking for.

[Dennis Scully]

The two of you?

[Glenn Lawson]

Did either of you have somebody in the family who had a business that got away from them, or did you see something up close? I mean, it's so interesting. In our industry, there seem to be all these opportunities to take money and.

[Dennis Scully]

Scale up a business.

[Glenn Lawson]

I mean, what's keeping your feet on the ground about all of this?

[Grant Fenning]

I think we both really want to be connected to the product and the.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Brand and the clients.

[Grant Fenning]

And I think as we get bigger and as there's more room between sort of us and the, you know, sort of final user, that got a little uncomfortable for us. We're still in the showroom every day. We're still talking with people. We really like having that high touch. We don't want to be so big that we're, you know, just managing people and we're not creative anymore.

[Unnamed Speaker]

For us, being creative is sort of our number one joy in this business.

[Grant Fenning]

And we found as we were getting.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Bigger and bigger, that creativity started to.

[Grant Fenning]

Take a bit of a backseat to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You know, all the fun stuff like HR and accounting.

[Grant Fenning]

And, you know, I think we realized there's a comfortable place for us with growth where we can still be creative and still be connected.

[Glenn Lawson]

Okay, so New York was just so natural because there was so much demand there. It wasn't as though you were looking at a map of America and saying, oh, we've got to accept span. We've got to be in five big cities in the next few years. It was really just, this market is pulling us here.

[Dennis Scully]

Let's do this.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Absolutely.

[Grant Fenning]

And that speaks to that connection that we're looking for, we really want to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Be more connected to our clients on the East Coast.

[Grant Fenning]

So that solved that problem.

[Glenn Lawson]

And did Harbinger coming and Nikki Kehoe coming and all these other LA brands. Did that give you some comfort in seeing all of that too? Because, I mean, it just seems like this golden moment in New York right now for these, these LA brands.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Absolutely.

[Grant Fenning]

I mean, Joe at Arbinger was, you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Know, really the pioneer of this whole sort of latest movement and he's a.

[Grant Fenning]

Good friend and has given us, you know, a lot of good advice over the years about, you know, sort of what that took and how it was going. And Todd and Amy are also very good friends of ours and we've, we've.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Talked with them at length about how it's going.

[Grant Fenning]

So we had a lot of really good support and a lot of good.

[Unnamed Speaker]

People who went before us and we.

[Grant Fenning]

Knew it would be, you know, well.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Received and, you know, sort of not as, not as hard to pull off.

[Grant Fenning]

As we once thought.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It ended up being a pretty smooth transition.

[Glenn Lawson]

That's really lovely to hear because one of the other challenges in LA especially, but this is a challenge everywhere. There's lots of workrooms around that can make your stuff for somebody else and I've visited many of them and I see, right, other people's stuff on the workroom floor. I mean, how do you guys deal with that? How do you, how do you think about it? How do you not go crazy knowing that that's happening?

[Unnamed Speaker]

We've always just kind of taken it with stride. I mean, you have to sort of like, well, people want to. If your work is exciting or, or interesting, people are going to copy it. And we try to. I mean, we've, we've definitely this year really made a conscious effort to reach more into hospitality because we found that that's unfortunately some of the times where we've been, we've been copied, as in hospitality. So we did BDNY this year for the first time and we had a really nice response. And we've always had the ability to create for, to produce for hospitality, but we've never really gone after it. And I think this year has also been about that and just sort of putting ourselves out there and getting some outside salespeople that are looking for hospitality. And unfortunately some of our older designs have not been copied as of yet, a few of them. So hopefully that will not happen. But we just always try to keep it fresh and move on.

[Dennis Scully]

So was that part of your thinking.

[Glenn Lawson]

In going to BDNY was, hey, hospitality people. I see you might be tempted to knock us off a little bit. Let us show up and introduce ourselves.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We'll do it for you. Yeah, we'll give you our quality and we'll do it for you. And so that's our hope is that, that we can appeal to them and give them our designs that are licensed.

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah, because they're knocking you off because.

[Unnamed Speaker]

They either want a lower price point or they want sort of ease of production.

[Grant Fenning]

They want to be able to control the production.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So if we can offer that to.

[Grant Fenning]

Them, if we can offer them a better price point at scale, if we can offer them sort of unlimited customization.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We can design a piece for them.

[Grant Fenning]

Suddenly we've sort of cracked the code and are able to jump into a different market. So. But like Grant said, we, you know, we know people are going to copy us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's just the nature of the business. We're pretty prolific with our designs.

[Grant Fenning]

We just keep it moving. I know there's some companies that, you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Know, they do five things really well.

[Grant Fenning]

And it's, it's heartbreaking when they're, you know, sort of copied because they put so much energy and engineering into a particular piece. You know, for us we, we just keep it moving. We, we have a big line and, you know, if we have to drop a few styles because they were over copied, then so be it. It's just, you know, sort of one of the things of doing business, I guess.

[Glenn Lawson]

Let's talk about the, the interesting challenge that the two of you have taken on, which is a collaboration with CB2. So here, right, you had to find ways to value engineer, right, your, your designs to this more affordable price point. And I want to hear from you both how that collaboration first came about and how you thought about it and if you were hesitant about it at all in the beginning or sort of how it came to be.

[Grant Fenning]

We were sort of approached by our agent who works with CB2 and was able to sort of connect us and make an introduction. And we had a couple great meetings with them and our agent had worked with them before, so he had a lot of great things to say and a lot of good background. So we were very comfortable from jump with them.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And the sort of, the good news.

[Grant Fenning]

Of the pandemic is we were doing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

All of this designing right in the height of the lockdown.

[Grant Fenning]

So our showroom was shuttered. You know, everyone was working from home. We were, you know, kind of climbing the walls. And CB2 is like, hey, you want to design 150 pieces. So we're like, sounds great.

[Unnamed Speaker]

This is a really good use of our time.

[Grant Fenning]

When are, you know, sort of. When are we ever going to get this chance again to sort of both.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Be really ensconced in just the design.

[Grant Fenning]

Process, which we hadn't, you know, sort of had that in a long time where we could just really sit and just design things. And we really enjoyed that process. The design process.

[Glenn Lawson]

Well, and do they. Do they come to you saying, I need a sofa to come in roughly at this price point, or how does it work from that perspective?

[Unnamed Speaker]

No, they truly gave us carte blanche. They said, design whatever you want.

[Grant Fenning]

Don't make it targeted towards us. Don't, don't, don't think of this as a CB2 piece. Think of this as a loss and vetting piece.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What do you want to design?

[Grant Fenning]

Like, we want your work. We don't want to be sort of like, you know, for lack of a better word, like, distilling it for us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We want your sort of your voice.

[Grant Fenning]

So it was great. They said, well, we'll look at everything and we'll cost it, and if it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Can'T be done, it can't be done.

[Grant Fenning]

But just give us everything.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So we gave them everything.

[Grant Fenning]

We gave them over 200 designs.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yes, so much, Dennis. It was really interesting, though, being able to talk to them and really get. We had lots and lots of intensive meetings about who their client was and sort of learning who the client was. And I think that that was great for Glenn and I to sort of be able to design for, you know, probably a bit of a younger client. And then also the categories were so large that we started. We started being interested in doing because we, like Glenn said, we were both just super excited to throw ourselves into it.

[Grant Fenning]

I mean, just the categories we were able to work with. Like, we don't, you know, sort of aren't able to do a rug line.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And a glassware line and a pillow.

[Grant Fenning]

Line, you know, alongside a upholstery line. And I mean, it was every category, they gave us just total control over what we wanted to present as long as it hit sort of their, you know, they needed lighting, they needed, you know, textiles, everything.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So for us, it was really fun.

[Grant Fenning]

To tell an entire story. And it really gave us this opportunity to encapsulate the brand. Like, how does the brand spread, you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Know, sort of amongst all categories and what does that feel like and what's.

[Grant Fenning]

The vibe and how are we merchandising.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It and putting it all together?

[Grant Fenning]

So it was A really fun opportunity for us.

[Glenn Lawson]

Well, so to Grant's point, what does CB2 say about who they want you to imagine this client being? I mean, who. Who. Who do they see as their client?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think they're like a young professional generally. You know, sort of. A lot of. A lot of times in urban dw. Dweller, Apartment dweller. So we're. The scale. You had to really. You had to really think about the scale. And, and we, we didn't do. You know, we're not talking about restoration hardware scale. I mean, everything was. Was definitely similar to Lawson Fanning. And we, we definitely do. We definitely have some underscaled pieces as well. But the. I think the stuff that's still really selling the best in the line, there's still some pieces that are in their top sellers are, you know, sort of a small swivel chair that, you know, you can see it fitting anywhere. And I think, you know, the out of the box. I think the color was something that we talked about with them a lot. And, you know, some. Some of the materials that they pushed on us were the things that were popular with them that we wouldn't think of using. We wouldn't think of doing molded fiberglass for Lawson Fenning customer. But, you know, for CB2, that's a pretty common technique or material that they use.

[Glenn Lawson]

Were you worried about how your designer clientele would respond to this? Did you have conversations ahead of time, take the temperature?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think maybe a little bit. But we found it. They pretty much embraced it. I mean, we had a lot of clients that were designers that were buying it for their offices, and they would send us photos and they were like, we just did a whole wall of your bookshelves for our office. And then you see it in projects where it would be alongside Lawson Fenning pieces and generally in the kids rooms or in the office or second bedroom, but even mixed in the living spaces. So I did not feel like we really got any pushback from our clientele.

[Glenn Lawson]

Well, that's nice to hear. And it's interesting because. And again, I'm going to come back to this whole sort of trade program discussion because recently we wrote about what designers are looking for in a trade program. What matters? I'm asking designers all the time. This whole issue of trade exclusivity, does that matter as much anymore or what are the important points? I mean, what do designers tell you is important to them?

[Grant Fenning]

I mean, above and beyond everything else, it's our customization. Designers really want to be able to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Personalize the pieces for Their client.

[Grant Fenning]

And that's something that a lot of clients struggle with.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We do have end users come to.

[Grant Fenning]

Us and they're overwhelmed by the options. You know, we say to them, you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Can pick any fabric.

[Grant Fenning]

You can go, you know, sort of sort it out yourselves, get whatever fabric.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You want and bring it to us. You can pick any wood, finish. This couch can be any size.

[Grant Fenning]

And then suddenly the client's overwhelmed. And that's where designers are really, you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Know, sort of past the muster. Like, that's what they do, and they're.

[Grant Fenning]

Really good at it. And that's why you hire designers to sort of help you decide, you know, amongst the limitless options, what you need and what's going to work for you.

[Glenn Lawson]

And the whole issue of. I mean, I don't know what the breakdown is between consumer and designers for you guys. You can tell me. But I mean, it's majority.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We're majority designers at this point. Yeah. We have a fairly under 10%, I would say.

[Glenn Lawson]

Really? So under 10% consumer at this point?

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah. Yes, yes.

[Glenn Lawson]

And was that intentional on your part at some point, or is that just how it shook out in the end?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Never. Never intentional in the. In the beginning. I think it was. It. It was quickly learned that, you know, you. When you can sell many, many sofas to one person and keep them happy over the years, you know, it. It does pan out to be a better situation where, I mean, we. We loved selling, you know, people their first sofa and direct to consumer and having the relationships with people that, you know, that. That do come in and shop with us. But. But I think that it. Yeah. The designers are also very, very much. They're fun to work for because they. The stuff that they create with our furniture has always been very inspiring. We keep a log of, you know, all the different fabrics and like Glenn says, the customizations that these people do that are so talented, you know, like, we have people that are shopping with us that are just the, you know, the creme de la creme of interior designers. And we. We get a lot of. We get a lot of fantastic ideas from our clientele. Yeah.

[Grant Fenning]

And one thing we decided to do.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Early on was not go online with.

[Grant Fenning]

Our pieces because they are so high touch and there are so many options. So we don't sell online, we don't sell through our website. And I think that that's been a bit of a gatekeeper and, you know, sort of allowed the trade to really.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Lean in and be able to use.

[Grant Fenning]

Us without, you know, too much worry that their clients were Going to go direct and get something that they could get. You know, I think, you know, it's a bit overwhelming for people and it's not, you know, you can't just like.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Put it in your couch, in your.

[Grant Fenning]

Cart and check out that's not our business model.

[Glenn Lawson]

And will it, I mean, can you imagine that becoming your business model at some point? I mean, is online calling to you in a meaningful way? I would think it is, yeah.

[Grant Fenning]

I would think, you know, that's a big ramp up, you know, to sort of get that all going. I think, you know, to be able to offer some of our pieces online is definitely a goal of ours. We've just partnered with Design Within Reach to offer some core collection pieces with, you know, sort of a more curated option set. And that, you know, is our first sort of foray into real online and we'll see sort of how that shakes out. But I think, you know, finding these partners is good for us and then.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We'Ll, you know, we'll see where it.

[Grant Fenning]

Land, where it leads us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Dennis, we really have looked at it for probably 10 years off and on, different periods and got, and we've gotten close and as Glenn said, we've always just sort of have decided it wasn't for us. I do think this, this foray into DWR is going to be, going to be interesting and we're already, we're already seeing, you know, some, some pickup on it and I, and I think that, that we can distill the brand down and, and, and pick some of the pieces and, and have a direct consumer line. I, I think that's definitely a goal.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Ernesta's designer quality custom size rugs are the foundation to an elevated space. Help your clients transform their homes by joining Ernesta's trade program. As a member of the Ernesta trade program, you'll get preferred pricing, free unlimited 12x12 samples and dedicated services such as a personal account manager and a trade only website. To learn more about joining this exclusive program, head to ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh and now back to the show.

[Glenn Lawson]

What do you want to have happen in New York? What's winning gonna look like for you in New York?

[Grant Fenning]

I mean, I feel like we've already won just cause we're there and it's open and it's, it's beautiful. It's happened, it's open. I'm like, victory, we're done, right? Like we don't have to do anything else. So, yeah, I remember that the first day we were actually open to the public, saying to, you know, the team, like, oh, gosh, there's people coming in now. Like, we have to actually, you know, sort of do the, you know, sort of servicing the clients thing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like, don't sell anything.

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah, it looks so pretty. Yeah, don't sell anything.

[Glenn Lawson]

Don't let anything leave the showroom floor.

[Grant Fenning]

So. So I think some of the success has come already, and I think that the true success will be seeing all the clients interact with the pieces that have never seen it before. You know, one of our first days open, we had a designer who's bought from us for 15 years, never seen a piece in person, and, you know, we're just like, thanks for trusting us to, you know, sort of spec us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

For all your projects.

[Grant Fenning]

And here you go. And she was just so beside herself and so happy and just seeing that, seeing the clients really see the pieces for the first time. And it's very rewarding for us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The showroom in LA is. We do sell quite a bit off the floor there, and everything is available off the floor there. And so it's not the traditional designer showroom model. We do memo, sometimes half the shop will go out.

[Glenn Lawson]

But I was gonna say for photo shoots, I'm imagining. Right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Hopefully not for photo shoots. I hope not, if it happens. But New York is definitely going to be a little bit more of a traditional showroom. We are on the fifth floor. It's a bit of. It's not traditional retail, it's not ground floor. And I think that under the radar, sort of this finding something has always been sort of the ethos that Glenn and I both enjoy about our brand.

[Glenn Lawson]

It's interesting, you were talking earlier, Grant, about the scale and how you're very mindful of that. And you referenced rh, which I can't believe they sell as much as they do with the scale at that. At that size, particularly in that UK location that they opened. Because the Brits were just looking at this, where is this going? Where is this going to live? But at the same time, America seems to love it. And I wonder, what is it you think they have done so well and what is to be learned from what has made them successful, I wonder, or how do you think about it? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Grant Fenning]

I think the thing they do so well is they've really created a brand. And that was something we looked at early on was it's. It's Holistic.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You see an RH piece, you know, it's an RH piece.

[Grant Fenning]

I mean, there's really not a lot of mistaking, you know, a lot of their collections.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That's important.

[Grant Fenning]

I think a lot of brands get sort of a little confused and kind of go in too many directions, and they've managed to keep it sort of, you know, at a really. There's a voice, there's a point of view, and it's clear. And I think that. That, you know, is always successful.

[Glenn Lawson]

I agree, and I'm so glad that you said that about the brand, because I think that continues to be one of our industry's biggest challenges. And again, I'll go back to all these high point companies that bemoan the fact that they're not recognizable brands, even after all these years. And RH was able to come along and take a great deal of business away from many of. Because they were able to establish a strong brand. You love it. You don't love it, whatever, but it's recognizable to your.

[Dennis Scully]

To your point.

[Glenn Lawson]

And you guys seem to have been very thoughtful about your brand, and you have been successful in building a brand.

[Dennis Scully]

It's not easy.

[Glenn Lawson]

It usually costs a ton of money and takes a really long time. I mean, what do you think has made you memorable and more successful than many who have tried?

[Grant Fenning]

It's just Grant and I, so we have a great relationship. We have a really good simpatico in.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Terms of our aesthetic and design references.

[Grant Fenning]

Which is extremely lucky.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We're not going in two different directions. We're usually kind of on the same.

[Grant Fenning]

Path or sort of parallel paths to get to a sort of. Of a conclusion and a design problem. But I think we really leaned into.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What'S the brand, what's the story?

[Grant Fenning]

And we had some great mentors early on. I remember Peter Salak coming into our showroom 20 years ago and saying, there's.

[Unnamed Speaker]

A lot going on in here. Like, what's.

[Grant Fenning]

Lots and thinning. Like, what. What.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Explain to me what. What are you.

[Grant Fenning]

And having to, you know, sort of.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Explain and voice it and be like, this is the brand.

[Grant Fenning]

This is what's.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What you're looking at. This is what's informing it. This is what's important.

[Grant Fenning]

It's. It really helped. It was. It was a really good exercise. And then in later years, we worked with a brilliant brand strategist named Shawn Yasher, who really helped us.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, fantastic.

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To define.

[Grant Fenning]

He gave it real, real parameters, which was super helpful.

[Dennis Scully]

So what did.

[Glenn Lawson]

What did he force you to. To Articulate. That's so interesting. And that's so interesting about Peter Salak too. And I can just see him, a former boss. I can just see him doing that, like walking in, like there's so much going on here. What.

[Grant Fenning]

And there was a lot going on.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Glenn Lawson]

And I'm sure he was totally drawn to it because it's totally his, his vibe. But so what, so what did Sean try to get you to, to work on that? So interesting.

[Grant Fenning]

It was really like a series of questions. It was, it was almost like a job interview.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like, what, what's important to you?

[Grant Fenning]

What, what do you want people to remember?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Who are you?

[Grant Fenning]

What's, what is the brand? What does it look like, feel like?

[Unnamed Speaker]

What are your colors?

[Grant Fenning]

What, what's, you know, your geography and what's your inspiration? And really focusing on that. And for us it was, we're a California brand. We've always been very inspired by the history of Southern California, despite not actually.

[Glenn Lawson]

Being from California, despite full disclosure, the two of them for this beloved California brand.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Informative years, though. Informative years.

[Grant Fenning]

Yes, I have, I've spent over 25 years here and I have, yes, I have earned.

[Glenn Lawson]

You earned it, yeah.

[Grant Fenning]

California stripe. But yes, we really are, we are very inspired by sort of the history of Southern California architecture and design. And we really have leaned into that and that helps define the brand. It's helpful to have parameters. It's helpful to think of everything through that lens.

[Glenn Lawson]

For us, it's so hard to remain disciplined about brand. And that's why so few companies do well. That's why so few companies are successful doing it because they're all over the place and they're, oh, we're bringing in this Italian looking sofa one day and next year we're doing some crazy or leather, you know, like. Yeah, they can't, they can't stop themselves. And brand discipline is just one of the, one of the real keys. And again, I go back to CB2. I think they've done that so well. I think they've stayed on that brand. They know who they are and then who they aren't. And I think that they found a very strong market in there.

[Grant Fenning]

Absolutely. And they've done something interesting that also DWR does and that we've done over the years and they partner with sort of like minded designers or brands to create products. So CB2 is using us to design a line. We're working with someone like Disc Interiors.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To design a line for us.

[Grant Fenning]

So we have that, you know, relationship as well to our designers and our Community. And I think that that's so special. I think being able to design pieces with, you know, people who inspire you and people who are sort of simpatico with you, it's really powerful and we get some really good results from that.

[Glenn Lawson]

Well, and I'm so glad you mentioned that, Glenn, and tell me how you think about that, because.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes.

[Glenn Lawson]

So you work with Disc Interiors, you work with Brian Paquette. I mean, you tell me what, what makes that happen? How do you pick this person that you're working with or that person you're working with?

[Grant Fenning]

I mean, historically, we've picked people that we are friends with, people that are sort of in our tribe and that we want to spend time with and want to work with. And not that we don't want to spend time with everyone else, but we just have a bit of a shorthand with some of the people we've worked with and have worked with them for.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Many years on their own projects.

[Grant Fenning]

And it just became a sort of natural progression. We're about to launch a line in.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The spring with Josh Green, who did.

[Grant Fenning]

Our New York showroom.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And that was a very organic process.

[Grant Fenning]

You know, we, we're friends, we work with him a lot on projects and, you know, he has great ideas and we're like, well, you should just, you know, do. Do some pieces. Let's see what, what sticks. And it's been a fun, organic process. Like, it, it, it has to be fun. That's always our overriding thing. Like, is this fun, you know, the.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Collaborative energy that we, you know, it really gets everyone in it and our creative team excited. And, you know, it brings in new blood, it brings in new ideas. You know, we get to work with, you know, another talented group of people and it's, it's, it's very fun. And as Glenn said, it's people that we enjoy spending time with. So. And the product, I think, the what we come, what comes out of it, I think is better for it.

[Dennis Scully]

And is it.

[Glenn Lawson]

So with Josh, for example, Josh Green, do you feel he's going to, he's going to create some pieces that you wouldn't have on your, on your own? Is he going to push you?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, he definitely, I mean, it's definitely going to appeal. It's going to look fantastic in the New York showroom. It'll look great in LA too. But, you know, he's a Southern. He's definitely, he's from, he grew up in Southern California, but it's a New York. It definitely looks a little bit More like a New York line. He's pushed us with color, he pushed us with, with proportions, everything. I mean, we're very excited about the line. It feels like us, but it feels very much like Josh, too.

[Glenn Lawson]

That's great. That's exciting. That's something to look forward to. I wanna talk, and I don't mean to bring down the room, but I mean, the wildfires in LA and I mean, some of the people we just mentioned were impacted directly and a lot of people in your community, obviously, and it's going to be a long time rebuilding and figuring out where this all goes. Tell me how you're thinking about it and sort of how it's all going at the moment.

[Grant Fenning]

Grant and I started our business in Pasadena and lived in Altadena for many years. And that community is extremely important to us and something we know very well. I can't speak too much to the Palisades, but Altadena I know well, and.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I know that that community is extremely.

[Grant Fenning]

Integrated and resourceful and will come back, you know, strong. And I think that it could be a beautiful thing and there could be some opportunity there to build back something really special.

[Glenn Lawson]

Yeah, I mean, the challenge for LA was that already the housing market had been pretty challenging and obviously this, this, this only elevates all of those challenges. Were you, were you feeling the, the impact of the, of the housing challenges in LA prior to, to all of this? Is that, was that having a meaningful.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We've, I mean, we've had a good year. We're up, up this year. It's, it's, you know, it's been, it's been a strong year. I do think that it's a different, it's a little bit different. There's a lot of people who are remodeling homes. Not, not a lot of, like you say, there's not a lot of people moving and sort of trading up or sideways, which, you know, is. So much happens in LA like that all the time. People are staying in houses for two years and that's not happening as much. And I think that, you know, we are benefiting from people wanting to refresh and, you know, sort of we're going to stay put for a while. And I think the reality of, like, if I'm staying here, I want this done and that done. And, and with our clientele, we haven't really felt it too much.

[Glenn Lawson]

It's interesting because we've talked a lot about how the industry as a whole is imagining that this is still going to be a time to Your point, Grant, where more remodeling or renovating versus houses aren't moving a lot in a lot of key markets around the country. And so we're thinking, are people going to be taking some home equity out or are people just going to be investing more in that place that they're going to stay because they've got that super sweet 3% mortgage and they're never leaving again? God bless those people. I wish them well. It's a little bit of a noisy time right now and the tariffs, conversation and also, I mean, the language, workrooms. I'm assuming the immigration crackdown is also potentially an unnerving issue for many parts of our industry, to be honest. And I'm hoping that it's not going to really become a much bigger issue. How are you thinking about it or planning for it, or are you just sort of of waiting to see what really happens before you get all worked up about it?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, we're taking a wait and see approach for sure. Luckily, the tariffs don't affect us because.

[Grant Fenning]

We make everything here in Southern California. So we're lucky that was the same. I remember talking to you, Dennis, very early on in the pandemic and we had a supply chain conversation which was such a fun thing to talk about back in 2020, 21. And we didn't have that issue because we're making everything here. So we didn't. We weren't waiting on boats from, you know, overseas and we weren't waiting on materials from afar. So I think by keeping it super local, we've been able to kind of ride the wave of some of these things that are pain points for other, other people in our industry, which we're, we're very fortunate.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And it's even more reason to double.

[Grant Fenning]

Down on sort of staying domestic and staying local for us as we, as we wrap up.

[Glenn Lawson]

I wonder, is there another key market that is showing you strong enough growth that you're thinking, I get it, you just opened New York, not rushing to the next market, but is there another place in the country that seems to make sense for you in the not so distant future?

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah, I think we're good with these.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Two cities for now and then we'll.

[Grant Fenning]

See where we land. But we have no immediate third market that we're eyeing yet.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think just with product. I mean, the only thing I would add is we definitely want to expand more into lighting design because we're both, we're very interested in lighting design. We're also very interested in outdoor furniture. We've never really had the space to show too much of it in the showroom. But I think we're going to try to, you know, we're going to try to expand that outdoor line and shoot it off site. And even though we won't be able to hold a lot of it in our. In our two retail stores, you know, people will hopefully trust us and buy it. And, you know, we are a SoCal brand, so it makes a whole lot of sense for us to have a pretty fleshed out outdoor line.

[Grant Fenning]

Yeah. And I think as technology is sort of advanced with outdoor fabrics, I mean.

[Unnamed Speaker]

What you can get for an outdoor fabric now is unbelievable.

[Grant Fenning]

And outdoor foams, and I think it really is exciting. It's an exciting category to design for now.

[Glenn Lawson]

Yeah. I mean, and that was a lot of why people weren't as excited about it before because. Because of that hand on that fabric and some of the other.

[Grant Fenning]

Right.

[Glenn Lawson]

I mean, it was like, oh, yeah, we could do it.

[Grant Fenning]

But yeah, it's White's umbrella or Grace Umbrella. Yeah, it's sort of, you know, the thing for many years, and now it's like, oh, wow, we can have an outdoor Belgian linen, cool velvet boucle.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Sky's the limit.

[Glenn Lawson]

All right, well, we'll stay tuned for that. Thank you both so much for making the time to talk with me. I really appreciate it.

[Grant Fenning]

Thanks.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, thank you, Dennis. Appreciate it.

[Glenn Lawson]

Thanks for listening.

[Dennis Scully]

If you'd like to keep up with.

[Glenn Lawson]

The latest design industry news, visit us.

[Dennis Scully]

[e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcastusofhome. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show.

[Glenn Lawson]

This show was produced by Fred Nicholas.

[Dennis Scully]

And edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.