Leyden Lewis: 'Interior design is not a list of vendors'

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Leyden Lewis: ‘Interior design is not a list of vendors’”

Podcast: Business of Home
Host: Dennis Scully
Guest: Leyden Lewis
Date: May 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this rich and insightful episode, acclaimed designer Leyden Lewis joins host Dennis Scully for a deep-dive conversation about the realities of a career in interior design. Lewis shares his personal journey from growing up in Brooklyn as the youngest child of Trinidadian immigrants to becoming an AD100 designer whose work is lauded for blending modernism, traditional craft, and a keen appreciation for art. The discussion emphasizes the intellectual and emotional rigor of the design process, how design education should evolve, the realities behind visibility and financial security in the industry, and the challenges/opportunities brought by social media and AI.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Distinguishing True Interior Design from Social Media “Tips”

Timestamp: 02:26–04:49

• Dennis and Leyden lament the influx of social media influencers giving surface-level advice on design—without the depth of trade knowledge.
  • “If I hear someone use the word couch, I think, oh really? Are you a designer with that word couch?” — Dennis Scully, [02:41]
• Lewis and Scully joke about the 'tells' of a non-designer (“couch” vs. “sofa”, “curtains” vs. “draperies”), underscoring that much of what is seen online does not reflect actual industry practices.
• Not all high-end design trends are visible in editorial outlets: “What seems to be the published and what is the industry are two different things.” — Leyden Lewis, [04:02]

Early Influences: Family, Craft & Aspiration

Timestamp: 05:53–11:28

• Lewis reflects on growing up in a vibrant, craft-rich Trinidadian household.
  • His mother, a domestic worker, sought to create an ‘abundant’ home using layaway furniture from the Brooklyn market and handmade draperies every Christmas and Easter.
    • “I grew up in a kind of a, you know, a faux Louis XIV environment in a three bedroom apartment in East New York.” — Leyden Lewis, [06:41]
• Father’s influence: Encouraged creative pursuits—museums over sports; exposed Leyden to the world of art and technique from a young age.

Artistic and Educational Foundations

Timestamp: 11:41–15:38

• Attended NYC’s High School of Art and Design focusing on fashion illustration.
• Studied at Parsons, where the pivot from interior design to broader ‘environmental design’ occurred.
• Critiques the loss of architectural rigor in editorial coverage, “We’re starting to really focus on image and not really understanding what’s going on.” — Leyden Lewis, [14:55]
• Core philosophy:
  • “Interior design is not a list of vendors. …The practice and the craft of interior design is beyond vendors. …It’s a whole body of ideas and conceptualization.” — Leyden Lewis, [15:38]

Forming a Career: “A Laboratory of Learning”

Timestamp: 15:59–17:48

• Early career defined by commitment, ego, and the absence of a business plan.
• Lewis’s approach was hands-on “trial by fire,” learning from mistakes and benefitting from the support of mentors despite setbacks.

Breakthrough Moments, Visibility vs. Financial Reality

Timestamp: 18:55–24:27

• Early partnership with designer Katherine Kim; first major achievement at Kips Bay Show House at age 29 led to significant editorial attention.
  • “Leather floors from Edelman. I designed the ghost screen... it’s just a beautiful room.” — Leyden Lewis, [20:35]
• Despite media accolades, struggled to convert visibility into steady work:
  • “It really doesn’t [translate to money], for a while, to be very direct.” — Leyden Lewis, [24:27]
• Importance of networks and understanding that press coverage doesn’t guarantee income or opportunities.

The Business of Design: Learning Value & Pricing

Timestamp: 25:37–34:57

• Lewis recommends young designers honestly assess their skill sets—whether they’re idea people or executors—and use that to chart a career path.
• Finds value in mentorship and peer connection to stay current with market rates and practices.
• Offers flexible engagement: “We don’t say no to money… If someone comes to me and they say, ‘Oh, I got 50 grand,’...you have to be open to conversations around value…” — Leyden Lewis, [32:50]
• Emphasizes the need for adaptability, personalized fee structures (flat fee, hourly, hybrid, or percentage-based), and cultivating long-term relationships.

On Project Minimums and Client Relationships

Timestamp: 34:57–39:58

• Rejects the notion that he only takes million-dollar projects—“That is not my life. I would, I would like to… I feel like that's like some sort of fantasy and it’s some old black and white film.” — Leyden Lewis, [35:16]
• Minimum project fee for his studio is ~$25,000, based on time and operating costs.
• Many clients start with lower budgets but often increase them as they become educated about the possibilities and realities of design costs.

Educator Versus Salesperson: Shaping Client Expectations

Timestamp: 39:11–42:41

• Lewis prefers to frame budget discussions as education, not sales:
  • “I am educating them. I'm not selling them, Dennis. I am educating them.” — Leyden Lewis, [39:34]
• Advocates showing clients both what their initial budget allows and what higher budgets could achieve; outcome is often a mix of both.

Practical Studio Management

Timestamp: 43:12–44:24

• Uses a percentage-of-time tracking model across a 40-hour workweek to allocate time/costs among multiple clients.
• External vendors must provide detailed breakdowns of their hours, which are then transparently relayed to clients.

Teaching & the Magic of Career Changers

Timestamp: 44:24–45:56

• At the New York School of Interior Design, teaches many career-changers in the MFA program, bringing in people from non-design backgrounds.
  • “You’re taking someone who might have been pre-med or psychology and inviting them into world of creativity, the heart, poetry, design principles...” — Leyden Lewis, [44:45]

Social Media: Blessing, Burden, and Shifting Landscape

Timestamp: 45:56–50:41

• Lewis is pragmatic about social media: It’s essential, but the pressure to perform according to algorithms is exhausting.
  • “It's like a rapacious creditor and so you got to meet it where it's at... Would I love to improve on our particular posting and rhythm? Absolutely.” — Leyden Lewis, [47:12]
• Skeptical about the future of influencer-driven content: “At one point, when the rubber meets the road...we will discover that those people were props.” — Leyden Lewis, [48:28]
• Observes that social media often preys on insecurities and can foster feelings of inadequacy.

Expanding the Design Canon & Global Curiosity

Timestamp: 51:21–53:51

• Lewis calls for greater curiosity and global engagement in design, moving beyond Eurocentric traditions.
  • “My responsibility as a creative is to consider everything and be curious about everything. It is not our jobs as creatives to limit ourselves.” — Leyden Lewis, [52:26]
• Advocates for creativity that draws on the full spectrum of global traditions, innovation, and even constraint-driven brilliance seen in other cultures.

Embracing AI as a Tool, Not a Threat

Timestamp: 54:21–55:43

• Lewis is unafraid of the rise of artificial intelligence:
  • “AI cannot take a trip to Ghana and go to a market and eat the local food… It is up to us to integrate that into our DNA… and put it into action through design.” — Leyden Lewis, [54:50]
• Sees AI as an aid in execution, while human creativity and lived experience remain irreplaceable.

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Notable Quotes

• “Interior design is not a list of vendors. …It’s a whole body of ideas and conceptualization.” — Leyden Lewis, [15:38]
• “When I concentrate on myself solely, it can make me feel very isolated and sad as a human being. ... There are other ways of thinking.” — Leyden Lewis, [50:14]
• “I am educating them. I’m not selling them, Dennis.” — Leyden Lewis, [39:34]
• “AI cannot take a trip to Ghana and go to a market and eat the local food… It is up to us to integrate that into our DNA… and put it into action through design.” — Leyden Lewis, [54:50]

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Memorable Moments

• Scully and Lewis bantering about design “tells” that separate seasoned professionals from social media amateurs. [02:26–04:49]
• Lewis describing his mother’s DIY approach to building a sense of abundance at home—a deeply personal vision of style and aspiration. [06:11–09:31]
• The “salon” at Kips Bay: how creative risk and editorial success didn’t immediately yield financial security. [20:01–24:27]
• Instinctive advice: never say no to money, always cultivate relationships, and stay open to opportunity, regardless of budget size. [32:50–36:32]
• Distinction between education and sales in guiding clients to understand and sometimes expand their budgets. [39:30–42:20]
• Scully and Lewis sharing skepticism about social media’s pressure and the “prop” nature of influencer culture. [45:56–50:41]
• Lewis’s passionate urging for broader cultural curiosity and refusing to lock design into narrow, Eurocentric modes. [51:21–53:51]

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Conclusion

Leyden Lewis provides a refreshingly honest perspective on the interior design industry—one that balances a reverence for craft, curiosity, and culture with the realities of business, visibility, and personal sustainability. This episode is a must-listen for designers at any stage, offering both practical wisdom and a gentle provocation to remain curious, adaptable, and deeply human in creative work.

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Transcript

[A]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Leighton Lewis. Leighton is a New Yorker. He grew up in Brooklyn, went to Parsons and made his way into the design industry, where his work quickly found an audience through a room in the Kips Bay Show House. Today, Layton is an AD100 designer. His widely published work draws on modernism, traditional craft, and an obsession with art in all its forms. I spoke with Leighton about why he doesn't believe in project minimums, the difference between media visibility and financial success, and why he's not afraid of AI in the slightest. This podcast is sponsored by Kohler. Kohler has always embraced the belief that design is more than aesthetics. It's a powerful force to shape experiences. Kohler Smart toilets are proof of the power of design and its ability to elevate how we live and feel. The Kohler Vail Smart toilet, with its sculptural curved silhouette is like nothing you might imagine when picturing a toilet. And that's the point. Transform a bathroom into something extraordinary. Discover Vail and all Kohler smart [e-mail] this podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. Every designer has a rug story. The one that arrived two inches too short or the one that arrived way too late. Ernesta was built to fix exactly that. With rugs cut to your client's exact dimensions and delivered in as little as two weeks, Ernesta helps everything run smoothly from order to placement. Join Ernesta's trade program for dedicated one on one support, preferred pricing and unlimited samples, ensuring a beautiful finish for your next project. Apply [e-mail] Bohemia that's ernesta.com Boh and now on with the show.

[B]

I feel like a lot of social media influencers are coming for the design space and are giving, I don't know, are giving interior design tips and tricks and talking about sort of to the trade materials. But they have these giveaways that reveal that they're not really in the trade. Like sometimes if I hear someone use the word couch, I think, oh really? Are you a designer with that word couch?

[A]

I'm thinking no.

[B]

You're not?

[C]

No.

[A]

And it sometimes I feel like when

[B]

people say curtains versus window treatments or

[A]

like I feel draperies or Draperies. Yes, exactly.

[B]

I feel like they're just all these sort of. These sort of giveaways. Speaking of which, the other day a fabric line was sort of showing me some of their new introductions. They Were showing, oh, this is going to be incredible window treatments.

[A]

And I'm thinking, like, are there still

[B]

designers that spend a gazillion dollars on window treatments? Like, I think of Scott Salvatore or somebody Right. Of that ilk, but I feel like

[A]

no one does that at that level these days.

[B]

Or am I wrong? Are there still, like, people who are doing that?

[C]

I think there are. I think there's a bunch of swags and Jaebo's being produced that are not in editorial at the moment.

[B]

It's just not being shown. It's just.

[C]

It's just not being shown. But it is. I trust that, you know, $200,000 window treatments are absolutely being produced somewhere on the Gold Coast.

[B]

Well, that's the thing. Michael Cohen at Samuel and Son tells me he's doing terribly well. So I feel like. Right. He must be.

[C]

Well, I think that's. I honestly think that. That. I mean, what. What. What seems to be the. The published and what is the industry are two different things.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I mean? Like, in editorial, hopefully. Editorial is producing a series of images, vignettes, and directives that show where the industry is and where it's going versus the meat of this industry, which is, I think, traditional design.

[B]

Do you feel that way? The meat of the industry is traditional design.

[C]

Absolutely. You know, I think that's where the billion dollar industry in textiles is. That's how it's being supported. You know, not with. Certainly not with some of our interiors that take, you know, two fabrics and a rug.

[B]

Well, exactly. You're not carrying. See, you're not carrying the fabric industry, Leighton. And I feel like you're letting them down. And this is really what I've called you in today to discuss.

[C]

Oh, de. Oh, forgive me. Forgive me.

[B]

Because I feel like for you, fabric is almost an afterthought. And I want to understand that. I want to understand that better.

[C]

It actually isn't.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I think of things so architecturally that. So I'm just thinking when you mentioned the couch or the sofa, you know, I see of it. I see it as a mass. I see it as this wonderful object. Of course it's practical. But I see, you know, is it going to be a. Is it going to be drenched in all oxblood? Is it going to be a beautiful avocado green? There's that one fabric. We don't tend to gravitate to many patterns. I love patterns. I adore patterns. Our library is stacked with pattern fabrics. We go to solids and textures in our studio. That's just the Way we roll here at Leyden Lewis Design Studio.

[B]

And I want to understand better when what informs that sensibility. So take me back to family origins and what began to educate your sensibility and train your eye.

[C]

So I am a son. The first of my family legacy in the United States is born in the US from Trinidad and Tobago. My parents came over in 67. They several years later, Laden arrives and I'm the, I'm the fifth child and the youngest of my parents children. And you know, thinking of pattern, my mother was so colorful. I remember times where I was like impressed by what she bought, but a little bit like, is that, you know, the flower shoes and the flower dress, Shirley, are we thinking that really? But. And you know, so I grew up where, you know, is the first generation coming over from Trinidad and Tobago. From Trinidad and buying the first set of furniture probably from maybe Pitkin Avenue. And it all being baroque with faux gilded frames and velvet brocade wall coverings in green and velvet couches. So I grew up in a kind of a, you know, a faux Louis XIV environment in a three bedroom apartment in East New York.

[B]

Well, so. And why were they drawn to that?

[C]

Because it reflected riches.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

My mother was a domestic and worked for families on the Upper east side. And I'm very proud to say that. So she came back with information. She didn't come back with the magazine, but. But she came back with a kind of a sort of a memory of what wealth might look like. And then she interpreted, you know, everybody up on the Upper east side is buying things that like, I don't, I don't know where they were buying it at the, at the fancy department stores at that time in the 60s. But my mother interpreted her version of it on Pitkin Avenue and tell people,

[B]

Pitkin Avenue, for those that don't have that wonderful content.

[C]

Pitkin Avenue, historically, if anybody knows New York, maybe before 1990, maybe 1985, it was the core of a Brooklyn marketplace where you could both buy wonderful furniture and you could, you could lay it away, but you could put your furniture on layaway. And you know, we grew up in the tradition. Like my mother literally bought lace from Borough park at Christmas time every year, bought beautiful fabric, and she made. It's a part of the tradition of being in the Caribbean. And she made draperies every Christmas and every Easter.

[A]

Really.

[C]

And so, yeah, so we had these hours and days of window treatment. Well, draperies, draperies, exactly. Drapery preparations. And of course, you know, little laden was there, like falling asleep and, and, and hell, and helping pull the. Pull the lace or the shears through and through the sewing machine. And, yeah, I grew up with that pride. The pride of creating what appeared to be a solid home. Sumptuous. And I wouldn't even call the word wealthy. Is not it? It's abundant. Abundant home. That's what my mother wanted to create for us.

[B]

And it sounds like she did, because here she is working on the Upper east side, as you say, and with five children. And I mean, a lot to manage.

[C]

A lot to manage. A lot to manage. My father refinished furniture. He is an artist in his own right, still kind of adjacent to the industry that I'll eventually kind of inhabit.

[B]

And did he in any way inform your sensibility? Was he.

[C]

Absolutely. My mother is the core, like, let's say, color cultivation of the idea of building home and how important that is. And my father is dropping me off at the Brooklyn Museum on a Saturday or Sunday, if they had to work, or the Met children's program. Like, do not hand me a football, but a paintbrush I can handle. You know what I mean? No. No way. I mean, I would just, like. I don't know what to do with a football or basketball, but. And I was just immersed in those museum environments, so.

[A]

And. And what do you remember about that? What would that be like for you when you'd be dropped off at the museums?

[C]

Two things. One is a Greek urn. And drawing a Greek urn like that. That just that. That flashes in my mind as something to, you know, the kind of Roman classical part of the Met, and, you know, sitting there with my pad and whatever kind of, you know, tradition that was of, like, having the kids draw these Greco Roman classics. And then the other part is maybe being 10 or 11 and being in the college section of the studio painting class and watching someone get completely naked and being asked to draw them. And I don't know why they allowed me to. They dropped everything, the birthday suit and all, and I'm here painting.

[B]

And you were such a young child still.

[C]

Oh, I was 10. I was 10 and 11 years old.

[B]

And so your eyes must have gone wide.

[C]

I was like, oh, well, my eyes in my body.

[B]

So many things were responding to this.

[C]

Absolutely. Very much. Stunning. And I was like, ooh, what is this?

[B]

So dad is exposing you to the world of art and culture, and how do you end up at the High School of Art and Design?

[C]

Because he sits there while I'm taking my test in auditorium, and he says, you go there, and I'll be waiting for you when you go and sit down for the exam. That's how that happened. And I did go out for apply for the High School of Art and Design. I was accepted and I studied in that high school. Interior design at that particular time was not on my radar at all. I had grown up looking at a lot of W magazines and I was obsessed with the 7 to 1 head of like a Green Hill drawing or Antonio. So I was a fashion illustration, if you can call it major in high school.

[B]

So tell me what would be involved in that?

[C]

Well, you know, they were, you know, they just like, I guess in. As an echo of like a mirroring college, we all kind of arrived at these. Well, someone was doing fine art, painting, someone was studying architecture. And I think in that case architecture was maybe more. Maybe drafting. That's what I kind of remember architecture being. I think interior design was a little bit more evolved. I remember a really good friend of mine, Monica Joy, drawing furniture. And I'm like, ooh, that's interesting. But, you know, we had. I was in the fashion illustration program and I studied it and I did well at it. And then when I started to realize getting up to like the 12th grade, I thought and I was coming to graduate, I was like, what is this going to, you know. And then I got a job at working for a designer and kind of like a guy Friday, as I was referred to at that time, and started working for her Joan Reagan book. And after. In, after school. And then it came an opportunity. I was starting to apply for colleges and Parsons. I always wanted to. I had done some. Some kind of weekend programs at Parsons as well for high school students, you know, getting ready for college, done more studio painting and studio drawing there. And so it was an easy one for me. I always had this idea of going to Parsons and then I went to Parsons and I started with an associate's degree in interior design and then eventually transferred it to an undergraduate degree in environmental design. Now the architecture department at Parsons.

[B]

And is that where you start to form this notion about seeing or appreciating the architecture before the design and.

[C]

Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I mean, even when you think about kind of like tutorial books that even went where you would be looking at plans by Parish Hadley, Billy Baldwin, there was a real. Understand like, do you remember they used to print the floor plan with the project in editorial? Do you remember?

[B]

Yes, yes, right, exactly.

[C]

That is not something that happens today. And so we would have to study the plan even during. In that process. And I always thought that was Interesting. When that got. When that left, I thought, oh, we're starting to really focus on image and not really understanding what's going on. So anyway, the program in back in the 90s was very conceptual, a lot of deconstruction. I love talking about Derrida, semantics, symbology. I wanted that conversation to happen.

[B]

Listeners at home, Google all of that, and you're going to discover a rich world that you'll want to spend more time with as well.

[C]

Yes, exactly. It's just not. Interior design is not a list of vendors. Those vendors are amazing. They've been completely supportive in my career. But the practice and the craft of interior design is beyond vendors. And I. And I just want to say that it's a whole body of ideas and conceptualization.

[B]

So tell me how you. Tell me how you. Your practice gets started and you've shared with me recently. I love that you described your career as a laboratory of learning. And you said, any mistakes people feel badly about having made, you just say,

[C]

no, no, don't, you know, don't just, you know, I was very committed. You know, some people might say stubborn. I spent, you know, through my own. I don't know what it was. I spent a significant amount of time with that first job. And after that job, I didn't want another job and I went to work for a couple of other designers. Barbara Hoban Ross, Edward Knowles, architects. I did do some, but I was like, oh, I really. And naively I thought, oh, I'm so, you know, total ego. I'm so talented. The work will just gravitate towards me. I had absolutely not. No business plan whatsoever.

[B]

A big ego and no business plan by Leighton Lewis. All right, here we go.

[C]

Success.

[B]

Come get me.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. You know, exactly. Sort of business of home. Guys, pay attention.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So whatever. It's been my life, right. So I don't have any regrets. But I do know that I spend a disproportionate amount of time catching up where I could have learned on someone else's dime in someone else's office.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And I had to, I had to learn those things on my own and had a lot of people who, despite being really stubborn, loved me anyway. And, you know, while I was crashing and burning for maybe the third or the fourth time that they. They were still supportive.

[A]

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[B]

What I'm curious about is so you again with the big ego and the no business playing. You go out on your own and tell me about some of the early days and the early projects that did come your way.

[C]

Oh, well, I think one of the things that I've been very grateful for is that I had a partner. We were great friends. She's now passed Katherine Kim, who I had my first business with. She worked with me at my office. We found each other at Parsons. We started a business together. And I did Kips Bay when I was 29 years old and I was in the house with Eric Kohler, Dakota Jackson. It was Alexa Hampton's first year.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So I've been really grateful.

[B]

So how did that happen? How did that come about?

[C]

Well, I did the Harlem United Show House the year before. And who walks into the Harlem United Show House but Harry Hinson, he says, I want you to do a room at Kips Bay. And we did a room that was called. I'm always calling room salons because that's just a way of saying a room for talking, a room for having conversation and discussions. That's not the living room.

[B]

Right, okay, okay, yes, the salon.

[C]

Of course, the salon. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, where the draperies are happening. So then, you know, we do this room, it's April 1999. New York Times and Wall Street Journal and Interior Design magazine amazingly loves the room. Leather floors from Edelman. I designed the ghost screen, which is sheet silicone and steel Royer sofa that we borrowed from Alan Moss for that show house gets covered in a gorgeous iridescent silk from Dangia. I mean, it's just beautiful room. Absolutely. You know, I'm almost still creating a painting and maybe in my mind, I'm still creating a painting in my mind that include. That's where paintings and sculptures are included in that painting.

[B]

Well, and as you just described, and I feel badly that there isn't the level of coverage. So you talked about April 1999 and the Kips Bay Show House opens. And then within the week is all the massive coverage of it back in the day. In the New York Times and Interior Design and Wall Street Journal.

[C]

Wall Street Journal, yeah, yeah. Washington Post. I mean, it was. And of course, I didn't know what to do with that either because we didn't have social media or I didn't have a PR machine.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So.

[B]

So you get a great response and

[C]

get a great response. And what happened? A couple little jobs, a couple little inquiries, and of course, I'm also breaking up with my business partner because we've decided that we cannot work together, which is really sad.

[B]

I'm sorry. So what happened there? I mean, I don't want to bring up bad memories.

[C]

No, we're on the business of home. I think at 29 years old, I did not know that I needed. Or what I really needed was a business partner, if I needed a partner at all. I did not need another designer to be my partner, and she needed a business partner. So we were both designers.

[B]

And neither of you could represent the business side of it.

[C]

Exactly. I mean, I still had another 20 years ahead of me attempting in creating that representation of the business side still ahead of me.

[B]

So. A painful breakup. It sounds like a painful breakup, yet

[C]

it was this amazing visibility, which is just incredible. And what follows about five years after that is I was invited by Thelma Goldin to be in the plaque, the first ever black architecture show at the Studio Museum. And I'm just. I'm just a series of graceful, lucky moments that. And it always tears me up that when you got such big, heavy hitters in the show in the black arch, and Herbert Mouchamp writes this review and says, but if there's a heart of the show, it's found in Leyden Lewis's project.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah. So, I mean, it was very moving and powerful. And that was also in the. In the New York Times. And I did not have a PR

[B]

machine then, once again, could not capitalize on this. Could not capitalize good publicity coming our way.

[C]

Hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. And, you know, and the story continues. It's a series of huge visibility moments and hustling and, you know, and then. Then. Then I'm starting to understand, oh, I need a network. I need. I need to understand that, you know, there are. There are agents who put you in contact there. There are design referral services. There are all of these different ways that actually get you in front, you know, because many people, thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people read the New York Times. Who's going to hire you?

[B]

Well, that's why, I mean, one of the things that you said to me not too long ago was this difference between visibility and solvency and abundance, which stuck with me because I think you're so, so here you are to your point, people are saying wonderful things, you're getting wonderful write ups in the Times and elsewhere. And. But how does that translate to you getting work and paying the bills?

[C]

It really doesn't for a while to be very direct. What it does though, however, is when the time is right, I'm able to pull out some of those accolades and those articles and say, hey, I was in the New York Times and things like that in my portfolio when I started to get a little bit more traction for those opportunities. And even to this day, I think any designer you know and I know and I speak with many of them, you know, is in, in on the 8100 list and so on and so forth. We are always mindful of where are the next opportunities coming from and how are those opportunities going to manifest themselves. And I think there are many different strategies. Some people have personal networks, some people come from big, you know, who are involved. But maybe, you know, sometimes I think to myself, oh, and I see it with some friends who went to like, let's say Cornell versus Parsons. Like we, you know, Parsons is an echo chamber of amazing creative talent. But we're all talking to each other. We don't have a business department at the New School.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

So if I had children and gave them a direction, I would say, oh, you want to just be mindful that you start, you know, laying out what you can is a landscape of your future business opportunities with your, your colleagues in, in college.

[B]

And that's part of what I'm, I'm trying to understand better this whole notion of the, the business side of it and what you, not only what you wish you had learned and to your point, you didn't go work for somebody else. And so you could have gained a much greater perhaps understanding of that whole structure of the business side of it. But also what role should that play in education and informing people coming into this industry?

[C]

Well, I think I see myself as being an idea person.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So if I had to do it again, I would position myself to go and work for one of the big houses where I'm a senior level designer, so I don't have to bear the weight of any of the administrative shenanigans, but I get to exercise what I'm really good at, my craft. A lot of people want to be recognized and I teach at, you know, I Teach the MFA thesis at New York School of Interior Design. And I love it. But I would say be honest with yourself and know what your value is and what you truly are committed to. Because some people, everybody thinks they want to be the, let's say, the Andy Warhol, the Basquiat of the design office, the Billy Baldwin, the big idea person. But when they really get. They really are really amazingly great at organizing a project on a project managerial level. And that is an amazing talent to be celebrated. Like, they're not so much interested in messing around with doing drawings and cultivating the ideas they really love. They want to be the executors.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Versus the other part of that is the idea person. Like, as an idea person, I do not want to be like, if I could do it completely the way I want to do it, I would never. I'd go to the job site once a month. I would make my drawings. I tell everybody what, what, what, you know, which I'm getting closer to doing, which is put together the CD sets, the construction documents. I'll see you. I'll hang out with the clients. I'll come to the job sites while it's being executed. I'll be there when you know, it's being photographed.

[B]

Okay. So I'll go away and I will come back when it's all done. You've got my ideas. Here you go.

[C]

Here you go.

[B]

Go forth and execute.

[C]

I'll check out. I'll check it out at every level because I'm detail oriented to make sure that the ideas are getting translated into the execution package. But really, I want to be in the create. I want to be in the studio cultivating ideas. And I make it really clear to my clients and. And to the. My team. This cannot happen at all without you. Without a team, this is. It's late. My name happens to be on the door. But. And it is. I've worked on it worked for that to happen. But truly, this is an absolute team in a village operation, including the contractors and the vendors and the craftsmen. It's a real collage of different minds and bodies and spirits in order for things to happen. But again, to your point, when the editorial hits, it's a single note about who did it.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That's a force of nature. I don't know what to say about that. That's just the way our society is designed.

[B]

Sure. And we want to celebrate the individual. And we have to put someone's actual name on that list and point to.

[C]

Right. So they know who to call. Yeah, right.

[B]

Exactly. And that all makes sense, but it's important to not lose sight of everything that you were just describing. But I want to come back to you. Mastering and better understanding the business of design and learning. Another thing that I find myself talking about a lot recently is learning how to value yourself and appreciate your worth and not only convey that to a client, but, but actually demand that from a, from a client and how you have, have learned that over, over time.

[C]

I think mentorship is really important to keep your, your ear on the street to see. You know, I think first of all, there's a market rate, right? There is a standard, right? What ends up making one person choose one designer or the other might be personality, the kind of work that they do, the style and their approach creatively. But I really think it's important that there is a general single or maybe two or three version. You know, there's the flat fee, there's the hourly fee, and then there's some hybrid of both of those things and a percentage over the cost of construction in FF&E. So what I would say is that stay within the template and within that template, use different templates to see what works. And you might have to, you have to manipulate the template for different clients and for the different type of job.

[B]

Well, so tell me what the template is and how you think you're talking about how you divide up your hours versus your fee.

[C]

Yeah. So talking about value, right now, I'm fortunate to be an AD100 EL decor a list designer. So what do I do? I call up and I keep those friends from that particular cohort of talented individuals and I say, hey, what are you charging? I think at the very least, if I call up, I don't need to name names, but if I refer to this person or that person and say, what are you charging? What is your current hourly fee? And I can go, oh, okay, well, I'm in the range, right? Like, I'm in the range. I'm not, you know, I'm $5,000 an hour. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

I want you to be $5,000.

[C]

I want to be 5,002. But I want, and, but I want to be working jobs.

[B]

I also have clients.

[C]

I also want to have clients, right? So I have to also be realistic. Certain people have, certain designers have exposure to certain clienteles. My clientele is within a certain financial bracket. All of these things, I mean, really sober conversations. One of the principles that I've really Learned over this 20 year mastering is that we don't say no to money, right? So someone comes to me and they say, oh, I got 50 grand. Of course I want you to have 5 million. But that's not always the case. I've got 50 grand. What did you anticipate your expenses were are for the final installs in furniture versus what did you anticipate paying a designer? And then you could have that conversation. I think that we have to continuously be open to conversations around our value because it might be an opportunity where this person is just doing a bathroom on let's say their Tribeca home, but they have other properties or they could be a referral based. I think it's got to be. I know, I feel like I've got in the mastering. I've got to be smart and know that what I would love to be paid for on every job is maybe not the real strategy. The strategy is to make contact and build my network.

[A]

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[B]

So to that point, it doesn't sound, and maybe you're just giving me hypotheticals here, but that you've necessarily gotten to a point where I don't take, I don't get out of bed for less than a million dollar project.

[C]

That's not my life. That is not my life.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I would, I would, you know, I would like to, you know, there's a lot of posturing in this business. I've heard those stories and I think those stories are from the 1980s and 70s. I don't know about anybody who can, who can make those statements about not getting out of bed. I feel like that's like some sort of fantasy and it's some old black and white film. So. Right. I mean, I have to listen and be open to hearing because there's another part where it's like someone who, they're just starting their careers in finance. They just made $750,000 and they bought their first one bedroom apartment, whatever that might be. I'm just making a scenario. They may not be educated enough to put to spend a certain amount of money. Do we say no to that client for what was potentially going to be future referral base or Cultivating a long term client. I don't know. You want to think about those things.

[B]

Interesting. Right? So you're thinking about, as you say, cultivating a relationship. And maybe I'm saying yes to this person with a smaller budget now because they're going to, they're going to get

[C]

married, they're going to go to a bigger house.

[B]

Right. Chad Stark's favorite, Henry. Right. The high earners. Not yet rich.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

So you land those early and then you just let them develop and you're just there every step of the way. No, I like that. I wonder. I'm curious. We talk about inflation a lot on the show and how much more expensive it is today to do everything related to someone's home and projects. Right. The furniture is more expensive, the windows are more expensive, you name it. How does that impact that conversation that you have with clients when they tell you their budget and with you understanding how much things really cost and where you need to make money and all of that, has it impacted how you approach the money conversation or how you do the calculations?

[C]

Yeah. So for us to set up a project, we've come up with a number that's about $25,000, particularly in our studio, which is like we really, you know, for not going to make $25,000, we get, you know, we have to make sure that like in a three to four month period, that's the minimum amount of money, given the fact that we'll be spending three hours or four hours or what amount of whatever amount of time that might take to execute on that project. So that is going to affect someone's budget. Right. So if they say, you know, and I've had a lot of clients come to me, oh, I have a,

[B]

you

[C]

know, it's very interesting. I have recently I have a client that came with us, with us to a $300,000 budget, we ended up spending a million and a half. We, we have another client that came with us for $150,000 budget, we ended up spending 500,000.

[B]

So you're. So you're really good at talking people up on their budgets. It sounds like this is the secret skill you haven't yet shared with us, Leighton, and should be the heart of the show. Leighton Lewis explains how he talks his clients budgets up from 300,000 to over a million dollars. And you can too, listener, by following this simple formula. Go ahead telling lay it out, how

[C]

do you do it? Lay it out, how do I do it? I tell them, this is what you're going to get for 150,000. Now, this is what you're going to get for 550,000.

[B]

So here's the sad little project that

[A]

you could get for 150.

[B]

I mean, we'll do it, sure. But look, I mean, this. You want to settle for this? Let me show you door number two. 500,000 gets.

[C]

Remember what I told you about it. Education and creativity is the backbone of interior design.

[B]

So this is another point that I'm wondering late to that point. I think that designers often struggle with thinking of themselves as salespeople or marketers or someone who is capable to. Your point. Of talking somebody up on their budget by.

[C]

It sounds like I want to stop you right there. I am an educator.

[B]

I am educating.

[C]

I'm not selling them, Dennis. I am educating them. I'm not.

[B]

I am showing them what they could be getting. I am. I am opening their eyes. Yes, great point. Okay, so let's not call it selling. We're calling it educating. And, and we are just showing them that there is a much wider world out there of, of resources and materials that they might not be familiar with.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

Right. And, and, and do you. Do you know, going in that they've got much more that they could be bringing to the budget?

[C]

No, because everyone, Everyone who, again, I think different clients have different strategies of their own. I think, you know, I'm also part of the, you know, the platform, the expert. And I think they just, they, under most many clients are just undervaluing their own. The, the work that they, that they know that they need. Oh, what if I tell this designer that I want to actually spend 500,000, he's going to make me spend a million. They. They.

[B]

It' okay, so they, they come in lowballing you in the beginning.

[C]

I think they lowball.

[B]

Okay?

[C]

I do. That's my intuition.

[B]

Right?

[C]

That's my intuition. It's like, we're going out to dinner. I'm only going to spend $50 on dinner tonight, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Only 50. Right. You know what I mean? It's the same mentality we're trying to keep. We're trying to keep a boundary emotionally, between the money we spend and what we could spend and trying to just keep a mount. A boundary on our budgets.

[B]

Okay, so this, this sounds like one of the. One of the. I mean, this, this is the whole enchilada right here. I mean, this is what you've learned. You've learned that the clients are going to come in and, and lowball you on the budget, and you're, you're going to go to work on presenting them what they asked for, but you're also going to go to work on if

[C]

the options don't cost you as a business owner any more material on, on accruing, accruing expenses. Why not show them the options?

[B]

Yes. Right.

[C]

And educate them on the options. They always appreciate it. And what you might end up with is 40% from column A and 60% from column B. You know, like you were talking about before, like the A total. You were mentioning a complete and total design project with every aspect. Again, I don't have those, I don't always get those clients that we're, you know, I haven't gotten a carte blanche client in a very long time. Even a carte blanche client is not a car carte blanche client. Everyone has limits. So just giving someone options and availing them of what's available and then they can consider whether they can make the sale. But it's a conversation.

[B]

So really you're educating them, you're showing them the possibilities. And to your point, in the end you may go high, low. Let's correct, let's spend more on this sofa that I showed you. That is, that is $30,000 instead of this $5,000 one. And that helps in a lot of key ways.

[C]

And they, they are given choices.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's really what it comes down to. And then ultimately they're deciding. You're, you're nudging them a little bit in the direction. But this goes back to. So it sounds like you, you have set at least a minimum for yourself. You mentioned the 25,000 that you know, you need to make that on whatever project you take on.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Right. And then you see where that goes from, from there. And are you, are you good at

[A]

keeping track of your hours?

[B]

Is that something that you've learned?

[C]

Is this is constant. It's a constant. It's a constant struggle. I think most designers don't like to do it. I agree with you. But what we do do is we come up with a strategy with my Alina Hackett, who's an amazing person to be working on this in this world of Blade and Lose Design Studio. Together with she, she and I have come up with breaking down our 40 hour workweek into percentages of time for client per client.

[B]

Tell me more.

[C]

So we know that we work on two to three clients a day, which would mean that there's at least three hours per day, you know, or subtracting out a one hour lunch break that we are at least two hours A day. So what did we do for that client on that day? So we work it out on percentages of how we spent our work week, our 40 hour work week between the two of us and whoever else we have working for us. And then of course, any vendor that might be billing us on an hourly, maybe outside services billing us on an hourly basis, they're absolutely responsible for giving us an articulated breakdown of how they spent their time.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So they're submitting that to you and then that gets passed on to the client.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

So you mentioned earlier the fact that you teach at the New York School of Interior Design and you work with MFA2 students, if I recall.

[C]

MFA1, MFA1, no prior design degrees. Career changers. Most of them are career changers.

[B]

Exactly. And so tell me about that.

[C]

I love it. Some of my favorite people in the world. It's just great to see how you can take individuals. And I think it's a really good practice, honestly for my clients because you're taking someone who might have been pre med or psychology and inviting them into world of creativity, the heart, poetry, design principles and saying, hey, this is a new language. You're gonna have to come up with a new set of skills and take all of the reasons that you don't want to practice psychology and understand why you want to, you want to, you want to be. Create environments and start getting serious about what it will take to do that. I think many people desire to express themselves creatively. I think most people, I mean just, you could just see it on TikTok. I mean I look or Instagram. The craziest things people do, they're just brilliant, but because they want to express themselves. Yeah, yeah. I think that's what's magical about, about social media in some ways.

[B]

So speaking of social media and social media has evolved quite, quite a bit and you mentioned earlier that it's been incredibly helpful to you and your career. Tell me about your relationship with social media today in terms of what social media seems to be demanding and requiring of us all that is, that is very different from what it once was and what it once meant. I think you talked about it going from silent films to, to talkies and I think that's such a great way to think about it because suddenly there, there's much more talking and acting and, and positioning required.

[C]

Oh, I think you have to, yeah, I think ultimately you have to be, you have to meet social media where you really, where your true energy is at. There was a couple maybe like two years ago. I always felt I was failing at it because I was just not doing it enough and we weren't posting often enough and da, da, da. And I just think right now, just like, you know what the algorithm says you should be doing this. I mean, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. It's like a rapacious creditor and so you got to meet it where it's at. Would I love to improve on our particular posting and rhythm? Absolutely. Right. Because it is, it's almost like when we went from radio to television. It is the truth. Right. It's the truth about where our society and culture is at. So finding some way to engage with it without. I also don't feel at the size of my team, which is anywhere from about four to maybe when, you know, right now when we, when if we get a big project and we're six. So I don't think I need to have a dedicated social media person. So we have, I love, I love the interns come in and do that work and we do the best that we can. I do think that, you know, to your earlier point about influencing, I don't. That's confusing. And I'm still, you know, maybe on the next, our next interview we could talk about where that's about. I don't, I don't quite know where this is going, to be honest. It feels a little bit like at one point, when the rubber meets the road, it will. We will discover that those people were props. Many people were props.

[B]

No, no. That's interesting. And I think you might well be be right about that. I also think your point about. And I think many people feel this way, Social media has a wonderful way of making you feel like you're failing.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[B]

And that you're not doing it right or that you're not doing enough. Even this recent wellness conversation that we were having, you go on social media and you feel like, well, you're not, you're not cold plunging enough. You're not sauning enough.

[C]

Oh, your kidneys are not, you're not. Your lymphatic drainage is not, you know, you're not drained enough. You know, Right.

[B]

Why aren't you, why aren't you putting creatine powder in your shakes every morning? Morning, and how much have you bench pressed by noon?

[C]

But without me going into an entire conversation about I love to make money. I believe in an abundant life, but the system which is constantly calling out our relying on our own insecurities to make money. I think it's very sad because that

[B]

is often what it's getting at is our own.

[C]

That's what it's just. You're tapping into our insecurities to make money.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And I think that sucks. That's just the truth. And I think that. I think people from our generation know because, you know, I was just. I was just talking to a friend of mine. We went from. We went from. We're on typewriters, we had fax machines, vhs, Betamax. We've been. We're the one. The last generation to experience this wonderful spectrum of all these different technologies. And here we are. There are people that are being born in this self involved me, me, me world. And I don't know what that must be like. It's really. And again, is that an older person having a romantic notion about what it means to be modern? I don't know. It might be. I might be old enough to be experiencing that, but I just know that when I concentrate on myself solely, it can make me feel very isolated and sad as a human being. I think, though, that it is an opportunity for those of us who are from the other generations just to remind that there are other ways of thinking.

[B]

Yes. And to free yourself from all of that and see where it takes you. I wonder, Leyden, as we wrap up, what turned into suddenly a heavy conversation?

[C]

Oh, no, this is what we do. We got to talk about what's real.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I wonder, to that point of speaking about what's real, I wonder, are there other challenges that you or that you feel designers are facing that we don't talk about enough or that we don't do enough to cast a light on that we should be talking about?

[C]

I mentioned to a client of mine recently, I said, if. Imagine if like, like I was just looking at, like, this is this Ethiopian kid. He's like taking garbage and making it into fashion. I mean, just brilliant, right? So if we were to mirror in design what individuals all over the world are having to do to, let's say, survive and thrive with. Without the hundreds of millions of dollars and really cultivate thought out of salvage, we would literally be creating interiors that we do not recognize. So I think that the industry, I think, is wonderful and it's got some of the amazing, most crafted Italian textiles, English, British, Scottish, German furniture. We are starting to look a little bit. A little bit into the diaspora. Not enough, in my opinion, about a bigger breadth of the world and what design can really mean beyond European. The tropes of European design. I think then we would really be engaging in the world rather than A reflection of Europe. My responsibility as a creative is to consider everything and be curious about everything. It is not our jobs as creatives to limit ourselves. Like you go to a museum and we go traveling to all these places. One would have hoped. And I would like to say that I'm curious enough to bring back and import in my spirit and my system memory from those travels and incorporate it into future work. It's going to require that we really start paying attention to the world, the way it operates and become really, really sensitive to all the people that are included in this world as designers, as creatives, to become curious enough to take the chances to create, to create environments and position ourselves as innovators, to experiment and create new spaces. New spaces.

[B]

Well, and to that point, about the newness. And when we think about AI and I'm sure students must bring up artificial intelligence and what does it mean and what's it going to mean? And I'm sure, I'm sure your colleagues and those around you must bring it up as well. What do you say? How do you think about, how do you position it for people and in your own mind?

[C]

Oh, it's. For me, AI is an amazing tool to help us execute the whole point that I was just making. So AI cannot take a trip to Ghana and go to a market and eat the local food and then go to a pre colonial ceramicist space and witness women making pottery. AI cannot do that. So it is up to us to integrate that into our DNA, pull that into our experiences, and somehow come up with. When I say new thought, I mean that's a big word, just integrated thought about how that can be, how that can be fused with something, some action that we would take around our creativity to show that we understood an experience that we had within design. So I'm not afraid of AI at all. Because I know that I have experiences as a human, a very sensitive human being that I will be. I'm very mindful about capturing memory and thought and putting it into action through design.

[B]

And that's the advantage that you will always have over artificial intelligence.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

We hope until it. Until it becomes actually capable of going to the Sistine Chapel and going and experiencing it and then we're done. Once it get right, once it can take all that in, then we're done. It's over for us.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Hopefully not in our lifetimes. That's what I keep telling myself.

[C]

No, we'll be all in cryo chambers and then, you know, and then we'll wake up 2,000 years later and you'll be on Business of Home 3,000.

[B]

Yes, yes, exactly. Boh 3,000.

[A]

3.

[C]

Oh, 3,000.

[B]

That's when we come back in our. In our next lives.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Okay. Well, there's a lot to take in in this conversation, but this was a particularly good one and I thank you so much for your time. Layden, it's a pleasure.

[C]

Thank you. And thank you for being curious about my career and my trajectory and to be reminded of my own journey and to share. Share it.

[A]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're

[B]

enjoying these conversations, please leave us a

[A]

review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show.

[B]

This show was produced by Fred Nicholaus

[A]

and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.