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Business of Home Podcast
Liberty's fabric business proves that pattern and color are back
00:52:26
Genevieve Bennett, head of design for Liberty Interiors, shares the history of the storied brand and its recent moves in fabric and wallpaper for the home.
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- [00:04]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Genevieve Bennett, the head of design at Liberty Interiors. Founded in London in the mid19th century, liberty has always been known for its embrace of bold and daring style. Oscar Wilde called it the chosen resort, the artistic shopper, a reputation that stuck for nearly 200 years. Today, Liberty is one of the most visited stores in London. In recent years, the brand has been known more for fashion than home, but Genevieve was hired to revitalize the interior's fabric business and she's been on a tear, overseeing new collections that tap the company's incredible archive. While looking ahead to the future, I spoke with Genevieve about how Liberty approaches design for different regions around the world, why they're being cautious about performance fabrics, and the good news that color and pattern are officially back. This podcast is sponsored by Kohler. Kohler has always embraced the belief that design is more than aesthetics. It's a powerful force to shape experiences. Kohler Smart toilets are proof of the power of design and its ability to elevate high how we live and feel. The Kohler Vail Smart toilet with its sculptural curved silhouette is like nothing you might imagine when picturing a toilet. And that's the point. Transform a bathroom into something extraordinary. Discover Vail and all Kohler smart toilets@kohler.com this podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. With Ernesta's new coastal and family collections, you can find a custom size rug that works beautifully inside and out in durable wool and performance materials made to handle everything from UV rays to high traffic. Your clients will be able to start enjoying their summer to the fullest in as little as two weeks. As a trade member, you'll get unlimited samples, preferred pricing, and a dedicated consultant to support you from the first sample to the final install. Visit earnesta.com boh to learn more about the Ernesta trade program today. That's ernesta.com boh and now on with the show. Liberty is a brand that so many people love and recognize, but I think many don't know the full history and who the gentleman behind Liberty was in the very beginning and as you reminded me recently, how connected he was to the world of design from the very beginning.
- [03:05]
B
Yeah, so Arthur Lazenby, Liberty opened his store 150 years ago. 151 years ago, actually this year. And he was the son of a draper from Berkshire and he had previously worked in A great cloak and shawl emporium on Regent Street. So he was in this kind of world already. And legend has it that he asked for a pay rise from his employer, didn't get the pay rise, so borrowed £2,000 off his father in law, stormed
- [03:32]
A
out the door, stormed out the door
- [03:34]
B
with a member of his team and went around the corner and opened his own store. So that was a kind of amazing, amazing start to his business. And I think right from the get go, he was known for having this kind of very artistic approach. He actually had in the early days, an in house interior design team where you could come to Liberty and commission an interior. You know, anything from a full scheme to fireplaces, wood paneling, stained glass, like it was really seen as a kind of real leader in the field of interior design. And then he started to kind of mix that with amazing objects that he traded and imported from his travels to Japan, India and Persia around 1880-1910. So it was seen as this really kind of artistic and innovative interior space. And that's why there are so many chimneys in Liberty, because he built these kind of room sets around the chimney fireplaces to create this amazing kind of vision for his interior design schemes.
- [04:40]
A
Interesting. So people would be able to come and see various room schemes throughout the store. And that was part of what he was offering as a service.
- [04:49]
B
Absolutely. And here some of the very first fabrics in the archive were actually furnishing fabrics. They kind of predate a lot of the decorative printed fashion fabrics. Even the fashion fabrics at the time would have been plain silks which were created, made into these beautiful dresses which you could also commission at Liberty. So no, it was very much a kind of whole view of lifestyle that you could come and experience at Liberty. And also amazing carpet rooms. So the carpet rooms were incredibly important and that's why we have these amazing clamps around the edge of the atrium within the store, because all of these amazing rugs would have been hung from the balconies within the space.
- [05:30]
A
And so I'm curious about the early development of the textiles and all of that and sort of when that first became part of what the business was known for.
- [05:42]
B
Sure. So as part of his vision, he would import plain cottons from Japan and India and then he would have them block printed in the uk. So some of those early fabrics in the archive are actually furnishing fabrics and they would have been printed in the UK using traditional methods. And the fashion fabrics that evolved around the same time would have been plain silks, these amazing soft fabrics and he was known for this very pioneering, pioneering style of dress, which was a lot less formal, it was more artistic. And Arthur Liberty was also mixing with the great playwrights and painters and poets of the time, such as Oscar Wilde, Rossetti, Lord Leighton, and they had this whole world of kind of relaxed, decorative dressing with these soft silks and amazing furnishing fabrics and furniture.
- [06:34]
A
And what do we know about Arthur Liberty's early training or early life and how he developed this level of taste and his eye? I'm so curious.
- [06:46]
B
Well, he was the son of a draper, so he had in his DNA, I guess he cut his teeth working in a cloak and shawl emporium on Regent Street. So he had that kind of knowledge and obviously saw through that, how he could do things differently. I think we're talking 1875. So it was the kind of later part of the Victorian era where people were kind of moving away from those traditional heavy shawls and very traditional kind of looks. And he offered something very, very new and artistic. So I think he had a traditional training, but then had the means to travel and experience the world as well and kind of brought these together in this really interesting way.
- [07:29]
A
Well, so I want to talk more about the history and sort of the evolution, but I don't want to get too far into the conversation without telling people just a little bit who you are and how you came to be at Liberty and really your extensive background as well.
- [07:45]
B
Yes. So I trained as a textile designer. I graduated from the Glasgow School of Art and then went to the Royal College of Art, where I finished my master's 26 years ago. So I've been working in the industry since then. I've had a really lovely mix of experiences, working mostly in homeware, so working for brands like Wedgwood, who have a amazing historical archive, and working on their textile collections for the Asian market in Japan, working to bring together the pattern styles across fine bone china collections and through textiles. I've also worked with brands such as Heels and Habitat back in the day and kind of have a really broad experience across all ranges of homeware, from wallpapers, furnishing fabrics, finished home accessories, rugs, real kind of wide scope. And then in 2012, I set up my own company and I'd been working, producing larger scale pieces for architects and interior designers, using wool, silk, leather, metal and glass. So kind of one off bespoke items. And I was invited. I've always done a lot of consultancy alongside all my other activities, and I was invited by Liberty to come and explore how they might relaunch their furnishing fabrics business in 2019, because it had been wound down over a period of years just prior to that. So it was really about making recommendations about how they could explore new base cloths, new pattern scales, how collections might be structured, really looking at the strategy of how the collection could be kind of relaunched. And then I was lucky enough to be asked to be head of design in 2020 for interiors and Homes. So I then took the job as head of kind of did my career backwards. So was always self employed and then had the joy of working with this amazing brand and amazing team since 2020.
- [09:50]
A
So you been brought in to relaunch the brand in many ways it sounds like. And tell me why or how it had been wound down because it's played such a huge role throughout history.
- [10:05]
B
Yeah, well, just to be clear, it was just the furnishing fabric of the business. So there is a huge, successful, amazing. Which we'll about the fashion fabrics part of the business. I think it had. We had a new CEO, new managing director, new design director came on board a few years before that. And I think there was this sense of this has huge potential. It had always existed. But I think in a way, the fashion business took over and interiors just got, for one reason or another, got a little bit left behind. And so my design director, Mary Ann Dunkley, decided to bring someone in who had experience in furnishing fabrics, specifically because the business before that had been focused very much on fashion fabric designers doing the interior collection. So that was a shift. And now we have built a team of four designers on interiors, but we have another 35 designers on fashion fabric. So we are very small but very mighty within this incredible team.
- [11:12]
A
Well, and that's what I'm so curious to learn about, is how you went about thinking about how to relaunch all of this and how to lean into, I assume, so much of the. So, as you said, people are so familiar with the fashion side of the business. Many people, whenever they would come to London, would want to be sure to buy a new Liberty tie or a new scarf. Liberty always seemed to play a huge role in what was happening in the world of fashion. How did you think about where to start to sort of fire up the engines again of the design side?
- [11:52]
B
Well, it's a really great question. I think one of the really interesting things about Liberty, which I hadn't quite realized when I started, is that where some brands are known for their florals or their geometrics or their botanicals, Liberty probably Due to its longevity of being around for 150 years, really do genuinely have every different pattern style under the sun. You know, we have the art nouveau classics. We have the small florals. We have abstracts, geometrics, arts and crafts, paisley. And when you speak to people, often people have a very different idea in their head about what liberty is based on that fact. So it can be a huge opportunity, but it can also, when you come to create, furnishing, fabric and homeware collections can actually be quite challenging because it has to be super livable and not an overwhelming amount of crazy pattern mixes. So the way I approached it was through color. And to me, color is really the key to making it work. I also knew that there was an ambition to open up a global distribution throughout all of our markets. So, again, that gave a good strategy for how to handle different light conditions, different homes, different appetites for color. So we created six palettes, which are based on objects, people, place and materials and patterns in the archive. And they range all the way from a neutrals palette based on pewterware, through blue and white palettes, naturals, all the way to the kind of richer end of the spectrum. And so we curate all color and develop all our collections according to color to these six palettes, and that makes the whole thing work incredibly well. So we've now got 11 collections, and you can layer and mix all these beautiful, diverse, eclectic pattern styles, textures, and techniques through these palettes. So that was one key aspect. The other key aspect was looking at fabric bases. There was a huge scope for creating something much more natural, much more versatile. So we introduced 100% linen bases. We also spent a lot of time, particularly in the last three years, designing our own proprietary bases. We have a technical team based on our own mill in Lake Como in Italy, who have done huge, great work on really working right down to the fiber level on incredible new innovations, which means that nobody can have quite the same base or quite the same fabric that we've got in our collections, which has been a great factor.
- [14:28]
A
And I want to learn more about that, because if I recall, you own your own mill, and I wonder how that has served you. I know that people are just coming back, in fact, from proposed and. All right. And many of them met with a lot of the jobbers there to talk about what they're working on for the coming season.
- [14:48]
B
So we. We bought a mill in Lake Como, just south of the lake, and it's now become the kind of beating heart of our business. It's where we produce all of our Fashion fabrics, all our Tana Lawn. And it's a state of the art printing mill. Absolutely incredible. It's one of the most wonderful places. So inspiring to visit. All of our production team are based there. So on interiors, we do use other partners within the region for printing because we often use very heavy linen, which can't be processed in the same way that some of the cottons can in our own mill. And then we look to other regions and parts of the world for other techniques, so particularly things like embroidery or the cut pile velvet. So we work with different partners throughout Europe for those aspects too. But yes, it's the most wonderful place and very inspiring to visit.
- [15:44]
A
Help me understand before we talk more about all the details of making this work, who's the client base for this? So who's coming to Liberty? And help me understand a little bit about your sort of your distribution, if you will.
- [15:58]
B
So Liberty's, obviously we have our amazing store in Regent street where everything is there. Like that's the kind of beating heart of the business. And then separate to that, we have the fabrics wholesale business, which is all of the fashion fabrics that's distributed all over the world and is a huge, huge part of the business with furnishing fabrics. We began our new journey in 2020, so we set up our distribution globally, a mixture of large distributors. So, for example, in America, we're with Fabrica, who have over 50 showrooms throughout the US as I'm sure you know. And then throughout Europe, we have a mixture of small showrooms, agents, distributors, all the way through to Japan, Australia, New Zealand. So we're kind of South Africa. We're really set up to be a very robust operation, both servicing retail and trade globally, which is just such a wonderful place to be. And actually now we're starting to see some really fantastic growth. Like, for example, in America, our sales were at 46% last year. So we have got some real traction going now. And it's very rewarding because we can see what's selling and what needs, you know, where the opportunities are.
- [17:15]
A
Sure. Well, that's good for you. 46%. So tell me, so tell me what is selling and what you have.
- [17:21]
B
Yeah, we've learned loads. It's been great. So we've learned that people come to Liberty, they don't come for new anything, obviously. Obviously very gray things don't sell. But I don't think anything's selling in that field at all anymore anyway. But we've learned that people love very special multicolored design. Multicolored. But not necessarily bright. It can be quite soft color, but it's always a multicolored pattern. We've learned that people come to us for scenics, so landscapes and these kind of. It's a real growth area for us. We're also doing really well, surprisingly, with coordinating fabrics. So we were quite nervous about going into this area because it's obviously such a saturated market. You know, you've got people the likes of incredible competitors doing the most amazing coordinating planes and semi planes. So we kind of dived in with some really wonderful, what I call characterful coordinates. So they're quite bold. They have a lot of geometrics, a lot of stripes, and they're inspired by our sartorial past. So lots of old archival references for ties and silk pocket squares. And these geometrics which have actually become. Are actually one of the most exciting parts of our archive, which you would never really know about. So we've seen some great sales through these coordinating fabrics repholstery, which has been really wonderful to see.
- [18:53]
A
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- [20:21]
B
I think the ongoing tension between heritage and contemporary is something that Liberty does really, really well. And striking. That balance keeps us creatively alive. And I think that longevity ultimately really comes from the evolution and not getting stuck. So treating the history as a foundation for reinvention rather than preservation is a really big part of that. And I think working with the archive has a real skill to it. You know, we don't just pattern and blow up the scale and recolor it we spend a huge amount of time developing new motifs, blending really strange aspects that no one else has noticed before, finding the thread of an amazing story, really going quite deep with the research. And I think that's a real skill that the design team have. I think that Liberty has evolved very quickly over the past 20 years, in particular globally, particularly within the fashion fabrics, starting to look at different. So you've got, obviously, a huge business with the seasonal fabric collections, but then you've got capsule collections and bespoke collections for the Middle east, for Japan, for America. And there's this kind of fairly like a very energetic pace to those designs being developed and the regional knowledge that's needed to get that right. For example, in Japan, they use a lot of softer color, softer textures. The Middle east is always about stronger color, more graphic lines, no animals. There will be no space in the ground of the fabric, so there will always be a texture or a pattern in there. So I think it's that real dynamic approach to design and regional knowledge that has really allowed Liberty to really expand and grow into these regions. And we have very powerful business there quite quickly over the past 20 to 40 years.
- [22:21]
A
I guess you came to the US recently. I know David Klaristenfeld was eager to get you out and visit some showrooms. And no doubt when you got there, you saw how much fabric and wallpaper is out there.
- [22:35]
B
Exactly. No, it's spoiled.
- [22:39]
A
Pretty competitive field. And yet every day I talk to somebody new who's introducing some fabric or thinking about introducing some fabric, and I wonder how you think about everything that's already out there, and not only how you differentiate yourself, but even what you sort of make of the whole competitive landscape.
- [23:04]
B
Yeah, I think it's a really good question, because we do feel intimidated by that openly. Like, when you go to anywhere, you see so much product and. And it is really overwhelming. And so going forward, I think there was a certain sense when we launched our collections, we wanted to get the foundations in, and we did do slightly larger collections. Now we've got some really solid data on our sales. We are scaling the collections right back. We're producing much smaller collections, which are much more targeted. And we're really trying to look at what's out there and not replicate things that already exist. Also things that will last a long time. Whether that's from a design perspective or a material perspective perspective. It's really trying to get something that we think people will treasure, will collect, will have forever, and kind of get away from that endless churn of More and more and more product every single year. So, yes, we launch collections yearly, but we make sure that they are hopefully different, quite unique and much, much smaller and more targeted in a way.
- [24:13]
A
And I think we've talked in the past, you and I, about performance fabrics, but here in America, people love their performance fabrics. And I wonder which is a little bit different culturally than in the UK and in Europe. And I wonder not only how you think about that, but how your thinking has evolved around what you may or may not want to offer in the States, knowing that.
- [24:41]
B
So we constantly watch and learn in this field. I feel like there was a huge explosion of outdoor qualities with solution dyed acrylic and all the polyester bases for outdoor that came out sort of around the time of COVID or a little bit before. And we've watched them really evolve over the past six years into something much more beautiful and surprising. We have one outdoor collection that we launched in 2022 and we are looking to do another one in the future. However, we are going to be very careful about what we use. So, for example, we try and steer clear of. Of finishing that's toxic. So we don't use stain repellent. A particular type of stain repellent finishing. We've had a lot of comments from different regions, some in Australia, some in New Zealand, some in Japan, who have said that customers are asking to not have those finishes on our fabric. So it is a difficult line to tread. And the reason for that is because of health concerns that have been proven to be. Be severely toxic to the human body.
- [25:50]
A
Yeah, just some cancer concerns that. Some of those. Yeah, yeah. That seems reasonable to try and shy away.
- [25:58]
B
So we've tried to have some presence without going fully into the full blown. Like, we will put every finishing on this fabric for you to make it robust. Because I think one of the interesting things, things, obviously, the world's a different place now, but when we look back in our archive, a lot of the fabrics that were in our archive 150 years ago were just very thin cottons and they would have been upholstery. So I think we've moved so far into this obsession with Martindale rubs and abrasion. And, you know, you want this bulletproof fabric, but you want it to look natural. And I think that it's a bit of a tricky line and I think there is something very beautiful about the way a fabric ages because it's natural. So not if it's outside. If it's inside, yes. And if it's outside, that's a whole different story.
- [26:44]
A
Do you think that that's a pendulum that can somehow swing back the other way?
- [26:49]
B
Well, you know what, when I was in Propost last a couple of weeks ago, I did see some incredibly beautiful outdoor fabrics made with hemp. And when you think back to the history of hemp and rope making and the UV stability of that material now and the strength and it has a really gorgeous, gorgeous handle and feel and isn't damaging to the world. So I think there is perhaps more awareness coming in, but I think we need to all ask more questions and push our suppliers to be trying more innovative solutions which are planet friendly as well.
- [27:26]
A
Well, and what I'm curious about with Liberty. So again, the store itself seems like such a powerful association that people have. Is that a helpful sales tool for you? Do you try and get as many people as you can to come and visit and really understand the history of it all?
- [27:49]
B
Absolutely. I think it's a huge, huge, it's like a real treasure. It's the most amazing experience and people travel from all over the world to come and see us. You know, it's such an atmospheric place and the way it creaks when you walk around to the smell and beautiful timber clad building which is actually made from the timbers of two disused warships. And I think that when you mentioned before about how we distinguish ourselves, I think one thing that always comes up is whenever I tell anyone I work at Liberty, everybody I speak to can recall a personal memory, often of a family member or a trip to the store or a grandparent or a parent. And I think that amazing kind of like nostalgia and memory is definitely linked to the store and is something that helps us create a longevity in people's minds in a way.
- [28:41]
A
Well, and it's interesting because in the US Department stores, great stores have struggled. Many have gone away. We're in this period where I'm hoping some incredible new retailers are going to come along and revive. Revive. What I think is so great about great old retailers and stores. What do you think has kept Liberty going so strongly over all of these years? What's at the heart of its success and staying power?
- [29:17]
B
So I think they're two quite different things. I think people come to the store for the experience and now there is only one in this particular form, there is only one version of it. So it's a very unique experience. Having said that, we have opened a showroom in Doha, huge kind of beautiful showroom and restaurant. So that now does have an extension over there in the Middle East. But Globally, the appeal of Liberty and its strength has really been the design house, the design team, that there's 35 designers who now have this amazing regional knowledge around the world. We also have a design team in Japan, we have the beginning of a design team in Shanghai. So we have this amazing ability to work with our history, but in really contemporary ways that is created for bespoke collections for different clients across a huge range of products, materials and markets, which I think is kind of extraordinary in a way.
- [30:18]
A
Well, and you mentioned Doha and it sounds like, and many people are, are focusing some of their efforts on what is possible in the Middle East. It seems like there's tremendous demand for your product there and so much so that it sounds like you literally set up shop there and have a presence there. Tell me a little bit more about that and what you're learning from the whole experience.
- [30:44]
B
Yeah, it's so interesting. So we opened a showroom in Doha in October last year and it's a huge space. It's part of the design district in downtown Doha and it is predominantly furnishing fabrics and homeware showroom. And then we have a beautiful area where our fashion fabrics are sold by our partner in the region. So you can go there and buy from the drapery, buy fashion fabrics and then there's a restaurant as well and they have pop ups and trunk shows. And it's become this incredible destination for, for Liberty, which is hugely inspiring. And I think what excites me about it is this incredible appreciation of craftsmanship that they have in that region. So one amazing fact I discovered was that we sell literally tens of thousands of meters a month of tana lawn fashion fabric in the region, which is worn underneath due to its lovely soft, thin, light quality. It's worn underneath the abayas by the women in the region. And then what's interesting on the homeware side is we're, we're starting to work on some really interesting hotel projects. We did a takeover of the Mandarin Oriental suites just around the corner, which was a wonderful opportunity to test drive some of our fabrics and wallpapers within the suites. And really, you know, the Mandarin Oriental is a very, is a very light, simple, contemporary. There's a lot of cream and beautiful neutrals within that space. So when we embarked on the project, we were a little nervous about how our colour and pattern was going to land within this landscape. And I have to say, when we visited, it was so wonderful to see because the pattern and the colour really opened up the architecture of the suites. It became very contemporary. The pattern look very contemporary and really created this lovely, fresh look and feel for the and quite surprising as well. So things like that have been working away, which has been super fun to work on.
- [32:57]
A
We're taking a quick break to remind you about Kohler. New technology can be intimidating to clients, and smart toilets are no exception. But the experts at Kohler have developed a product with intuitive and thoughtful design to improve and elevate the everyday experience in the bathroom. Bathroom touch screen controls, customizable cleansing features. Comfort and convenience. Transform a bathroom into something extraordinary. Discover Kohler smart toilets@kohler.com and now back to the show. Many want to make an association with where we are culturally or where we are in this moment in time, based on how receptive people seem to be to color and pattern. And people are trying to be terribly optimistic about this current time that to your earlier point, we're perhaps moving away from the grays and the beige again and feeling. I don't know if we're feeling more confident or we're feeling more eager to introduce color. Is there any truth to that whatsoever? Genevieve, have you found all these years?
- [34:12]
B
I really do, you know, and I tell me it's just a personal opinion, but I feel like it's really led by paint. I feel like the paint brands have done an amazing job at getting us all on board with color and strong color. And not just in Europe and the UK we're now seeing. So when we set up Liberty Interior Furnishing fabrics, we made sure that we had the classic palette and the blues and the neutrals, which we saw as very much an American market. And we're now seeing that our sales in America are not that. In fact, it's quite the opposite. People in America are buying into our very rich color, multicolor, strong backgrounds, livable, not crazy bright, but definitely strong color. And not just in cities. We're seeing it in those amazing southern regions where they have a great decorators market in history. So we are really surprised by that. And I've been proven completely wrong, and the sales team have been really happily telling me that I was wrong about that.
- [35:15]
A
So America's not just blue anymore. Is that the big message?
- [35:18]
B
I guess it's always gonna be there. And we do have a great blue kind of palette on that side, but we definitely seen a shift. And I do really believe that people are buying into color and pattern in strong ways because they've got more imagery to back up their case. They can kind of see that it works. And that whole color drenching of A space with paint has really paved the way, I think, for richer, more confident schemes that really take on board a much more daring combinations of pattern and color. And I think materiality, too. I think people are really leaning into more, dare I say it, slightly more shine, slightly more surface. Moire's kind of coming back and lovely texture. And I think it's that layering up of. It's not just colour, but it's layering up the textural aspects and the pattern within that too. So it's kind of a whole picture. And also really obviously led by incredible interior designers that we all look at and admire the projects and schemes. And so I think, yeah, we've been very inspired ourselves by that and taken courage from those developments.
- [36:32]
A
And do you think that those designers are pulling people along and. And helping them to be less. Because part of the perception in the US at least, is that people are still just a little bit gun shy. They're still just a little bit hesitant about whether it's fully expressing who they are and what their taste really is, or just appearing to be different from their neighbors, which everyone's always a little shy about.
- [36:59]
B
I often think that hotels really lead the way with this. So, you know, you've got amazing spaces by Kit Kemp and Martin Brzezinski and all these incredible designers, and I think that when people see hotel spaces that look like home or are really richly decorated, I think it gives people ideas and confidence to then emulate that at home. And, you know, you want your home to have different kind of styles and looks throughout and have different kind of temperatures and feelings. So I think there's a definite development there, led by those amazing places and bars and restaurants as well. So, yeah, I do. I do think they are leading the way.
- [37:39]
A
And does the British market feel very different from the American market? And if so, how? I was talking to a British decorator yesterday and he was suggesting that still, so many people in Britain just feel, oh, what do I need a decorator or a designer for? I can do it myself. Right, yeah. And so culturally, it feels like that's still something that designers have to work through.
- [38:11]
B
Yeah, I think we are very different in that way. In the uk, there is a very strong DIY culture where people feel that they can just wallpaper a wall themselves on a Saturday morning and it's just a nice thing to throw up in a way, or they might have a go at upholstering a chair. Whereas in America, I understand, it's much more formal and. And you would always probably have A decorator or someone who was guiding you through that process. So I do think it's different, but I think it's coming closer together in a way. I think people are now decorating in a more adventurous way and more globally. We're kind of looking to each other all the time as inspiration, so I do think it's merging and becoming a little bit less different. The one thing that we really do notice a lot is appetite for color, but very subtle things. So we noticed that in America, a lot of the customers don't love very natural linen grounds that are too dark. They want a much whiter, crisper, brighter background to a print, whereas in Scandinavia, they would be the opposite. So they would have an appetite for much kind of darker, richer colors. And so when we talk about color, we're not always talking about the top colors of a print or a weave, we're talking about the actual background color. Colour can be a very critical part of whether a fabric will sell or not. And we're spending a lot of time with our current collections in really trying to get that right. And it's quite a tricky thing. So I think it's subtle. There are subtle differences that can really make or break success of a collection in a different region, which we're learning about.
- [39:53]
A
Many British brands that I speak to are very focused on the US because they think it's such an enormous market and represents such an opportunity for them. I would assume that you are similarly focused on the.
- [40:09]
B
Yeah, it's been a big target. It's our second biggest market currently, with the UK being the first.
- [40:14]
A
That's what I was wondering.
- [40:16]
B
UK first, US second, and then Europe is the third, with Japan growing at great speed as well. So, yeah, no, it's a big focus and we're very excited about the projects that we're getting there and the growth there. Been pretty exciting. But, yeah, we're learning all the time about lots of different parts of the world and lots of projects coming up all over the place, which we get involved in, which is really, really fun.
- [40:47]
A
So for years we've been talking about digital printing and in the beginning, everyone was completely skeptical and said, no, no, that's never going to be good enough. And then suddenly it was good enough. And then. And then suddenly everybody was using it, and huge brands that said they would never go near it, suddenly they were finding all sorts of efficiencies and other ways that they could use the technology. And I wonder how digital is being perceived by you and your colleagues, but also, is there a new Innovation coming along that you are seeing, seeing. It's not an industry known for innovation or new techniques. And so I wonder if anything is coming up that looks to rival that.
- [41:37]
B
Yeah. Well, to your first question on the digital, I think there are obviously huge benefits to digital. The versatility, the smaller minimums, the speed that you can develop collections is appealing. Of course, the way we approach it, which I think is really a bit of a superpower, and something that I always talk about is the expertise of the design team and the knowledge we have between us. So we'll hand paint a design, huge design, sometimes 3 meters tall, and then we will translate that design. It's always hand drawn or hand painted. That will then be translated into a digital file at some point. We then don't just print that on a fabric or a wallpaper. We have a huge stage in the middle where we separate the layers. We create immense texture, we add shading, we change the outlines, we put mottling, we work on color. And sometimes some of our files might have, like, 160 layers. And this is the thing that makes digital printing on fabric or wallpaper unique and beautiful and essential. So you can. You can't just produce it by putting the print using a digital technique on fabric or wallpaper. You really, really need that level of expertise to really give it that beautiful, livable, grounded exquisiteness. Because I think the customer doesn't care whether it's conventionally printed or digitally printed. Quite often they wouldn't know unless they were quite discerning, but they would know why a wallpaper looks unlivable, because the outlines are too dark or they're too solid or. And outlines is something we talk about a lot because Liberty has a lot of outlines around our flowers and around our motifs, which is quite unique to us. So we have to spend a lot of time on that stage, sometimes up to four months within a timeline of really, really developing the artwork. Then, as well as doing digital wallpapers and fabrics, we also do a lot of conventional printing. So we have really invested in our conventional printing across the board, most recently with a wallpaper collection with huge amounts of. Of rotary surface flexo printing in the uk. And there was a period where everyone was just doing digital after Covid, lots of people doing digital. And I do feel like people are now going back to it and reinvesting because they feel that they need to do something that's got a little bit. Something maybe something a little bit different or a little bit of a contrast to some of the collections. And we're Finding our collections that have a lot of variety in execution. So you might have some grass cloths, you'll have some digital, you have some conventional. So you've got a real kind of a whole range of looks and feels within the collection is very important. So I think we are going back a little bit in that way to more traditional techniques and craftsmanship, which I think we did lose for a while, for sure. Yeah. And then with newness, I think there's a lot of work to do in the area of fiber development, like I said. But the outdoor is quite interesting with the hemp. More natural, natural fibers that are more high performing. And I think it's really as well comes down to bespoke. So lots of kind of ability to develop bespoke finishes, very unique surfaces and techniques for individual clients. I think whether that's digital or conventional, either way it's about coming up with something truly unique.
- [45:08]
A
And is, dare I say it, Genevieve, is AI showing up in the world of fabric design and wallpaper and the whole mill process?
- [45:19]
B
Yeah, I think it's a subject of much debate because of our archive being such a precious commodity. We have 65,000 documents in the archive which are real objects, artworks, paintings, everything under the sun, garments, production documents, swatch books. And this is all digitized so that we can access it remotely. It's in a bomb proof bunker in Oxfordshire, which is an amazing place to visit. Yeah, it's quite unusual. And then we have some of the pieces in London as well in the archive room in our design studio. So we're very much a physical from an archive perspective and from an AI perspective we have to be extremely careful because of the nature of AI models. You can't have the design team inputting these precious documents which have sometimes never seen the light of day for 80 years and could be the potential whole new collection for someone. So we're not actually allowed to use AI software within the design team to input our customers archival documents. I think it's used in lots of ways with sales teams and IT use it. And there can be great efficiencies from a kind of tech point of view, but from a design point of view, we at the moment are still in a much more analog world, I suppose.
- [46:53]
A
I wonder. Genevieve, as we wrap up and coming back to you personally, I recently got to spend some time with the graduating class at the New York School of Interior Design and I was thinking about you and your background and where this has all taken you. You seem to have landed in a wonderfully rewarding role. That seems to call upon so many of your earlier learned skills and talents. And I wonder if you were giving any advice or guidance to someone who is coming up in the world of design and is really interested in again, whether it's learning more about textile design or learning more about the history of art. What's advice that you might offer, what's a path that people could take to sort of hopefully end up where you've gotten to?
- [47:52]
B
That's a good question. I think a few things, I think that. But you've got to be really curious about what's going on in the world and really go and look. So try and see as many, try and get as much exposure as possible to brands, to the industry, not just textiles, but furniture, lighting, glass, flooring, the whole range of products and really kind of educate yourself as to where the world is on a lot of those things. I think there's a lot of amazing variety of jobs and careers in an innovative jobs within suppliers. So whenever I visit our suppliers, they have their own design team. So you know, you'll go to a silk printer in Italy and they'll have a team of 35 designers and you always think of brands and like I've got to work for a brand but actually along the way there's like a million other options of incredible opportunity of working with suppliers. And I think if I had gone back, one of the things I would have loved to have done was work for a mill. I think if you work for a mill, you really gain the most incredible knowledge very quickly. And I think the way that I built my career being self employed, I kind of learned along the way. But I think a fast track way to getting a huge amount of knowledge is to work with a manufacturer. And then the other thing that I, I think when we look, we do a lot of projects with colleges at Liberty, so we're always in touch. We did a huge project with Manchester University last year, great project. And many other things along the way with the Italian Politecnica in Milan. And one thing that I always really notice is when designers draw all the time. And I do think that you can't, particularly with textile design. I do think you need to be able to have that hand, like your brain, hand coordination and that kind of tacit knowledge. You can't really replace it. Of course, digital comes in later, but you have to be able to draw and have a variety of handwritings at your fingertips. And I think that's very apparent when you go to colleges that the people whose work stands out can be a challenge sometimes to get into the workshop sometimes. But if someone's in the workshop, if they're dyeing and printing and weaving and whatever they're doing, they're making androids, drawing, they're going to have a step forward in a way, I think.
- [50:22]
A
Yeah. So is the whole design service aspect at Liberty still a thriving business? And can you show up at Liberty and say, I want you to come and do my home or do my space?
- [50:35]
B
We definitely work with. We work with interior designers, and we also work with, like, a bespoke service. So if someone comes to us and wants a scheme or a bespoke service for a hotel, I think one way that Liberty has really won in this field is in our fashion business, where we do produce bespoke collections for the Middle east, for Japan, for, you know, for all over the world, and have been doing for about 40 years. So it's a great model. We know it works and that the idea is then to build the interiors business in the same direction.
- [51:08]
A
I love that. I will absolutely, absolutely be making my way to Liberty. You've gotten me so excited to come back and see this door with a whole new, much deeper understanding and appreciation for it. So I really, I'm excited and I'm thrilled that we got to talk. And I thank you again for the lovely tour you gave me in Paris at Deco Off. And mostly I just, I thank you for your time and it's been such a pleasure.
- [51:34]
B
Thank you. It's been great. Thank you.
- [51:37]
A
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.