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Business of Home Podcast
Meet the 'enfant terrible' of French wallcoverings and textiles
00:58:54
The CEO of Élitis North America, Olivier Thienpont, shares the story of the company—and the opportunities he sees today
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- [00:04]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm your host Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Olivier Tiempon, the CEO of Latisse North America. Launched in Toulouse, France in 1985, Latisse is the opposite of a heritage textile brand. Its founder wanted to break with stale tradition and present vivid artistic patterns, work with new technologies and push mills to innovate. Known for challenging conventions, L A Tiss was once described as an enfant terrible in the high end world of French fabric and wall covering. I spoke with Olivier about the surprising resilience of the high end market, the difference between American and French customers, and why no technological disruption can change what makes the design industry so special. This podcast is sponsored by Sixpenny. Sixpenny is reimagining luxury at home with extraordinarily comfortable slip covered furniture for living, dining and sleeping spaces, plus distinctive tables and accent pieces. Their furniture is completely customizable and made by hand at their own factory using all natural linens and cottons, lofty cushions overstuffed with ethically sourced feathers or recycled fibers, all without the use of harmful chemical coatings. Since launching in 2017, Sixpenny has been featured in the New York Times, Wirecutter, Time and Architectural Digest says their best selling Neva collection is so comfy it doesn't feel real. And best of all, their President's Day sale starts on Wednesday, February 11th. Visit sixpenny.com BOH to enjoy. 20% off orders over $1,000 using the code HIBERNATE that's S I X P-E-N-N-Y.com B O H Code Hibernate this podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. Custom sized and delivered in as little as two weeks, Ernesta offers design forward rugs where function truly meets beauty. From their sun dried Persian collection to the 100% premium wool styles, their expert craftsmanship is unmatched and when you join Ernesta's exclusive trade program, their team of dedicated consultants will manage everything from ordering samples to to generating quotes, connecting all of the dots to support and streamline your business. Apply for membership today@ernesta.com BOH and now on with the show. We're all just back from Paris.
- [03:07]
B
You and I were talking just before we came on air. I was hoping that you had a chance to rest and recover a little bit before today's conversation. I know it's a lot going on. Tell me what you do at Deco off so we show up and we're just going around seeing product and saying hello to people. Right. You've got a much more important job. High pressure.
- [03:29]
A
Tell me.
- [03:30]
C
Yes, so Deco off is really the event of the year, at least for us, because we don't do any trade shows in North America. We feel that there's plenty of US clients and press coming to Deco off, and it has grown quite a bit over the years. Now we have a home advantage because we're a French company. So we have our showroom right in the Deco off area, which is very convenient. And I think it's still a very significant show. I don't feel like there was any less attendance than prior years. If anything, we had a lot of people mentioning how many actually Americans they were seeing and hearing when they were walking around. It's a really fantastic show and very unique in the sense that you're not in any convention center. The fact that you're in St. Germain in Paris, that you can have a coffee or lunch next door with a client or with any contact, is just very, very pleasant.
- [04:35]
B
Well, that's what I'm always wondering, if you get to go and get a little bit of a read of how the show is going for everyone else and what everyone else is showing and if, if you pay attention to that or if that's significant to you to see what everyone else is doing.
- [04:53]
C
Yes, absolutely. So I think that's really part of the show is you have to be curious and keep an eye out of what is everyone else doing, what products are they launching, how did they style their windows in their showrooms? And it's important for us and the design team to explore, see not only what competitors are doing, but there's usually always a lot of museum exhibitions going on. I think for clients, it's really the perfect excuse because not only do you get to go to Paris and you see all the novelties, but everyone's really taking the time, a few extra days before or after, to see, even to go shopping, to see.
- [05:45]
B
Sure, some good sales are being hell.
- [05:49]
C
So, you know, and as. As you know, it's pretty convenient to get around, to get around Europe by train. So, you know, within two hours you're in London. Within an hour and. And a half you're in. You're in Brussels. So it's, it's pretty easy to get around.
- [06:02]
A
Don't bring a lot of luggage if.
- [06:04]
B
You'Re taking the Eurostar. That's what I learned on this trip, Olivier.
- [06:07]
C
Oh, really?
- [06:08]
B
Yes, I, I took that train to London and I Might have had too many suitcases, frankly. And somehow I thought magical people were going to appear and take all your luggage for you and escort you. But that doesn't happen on the Eurostar.
- [06:22]
C
Not yet. Maybe that's an option.
- [06:24]
B
Lesson learned there. But as you say, the rest of Europe is so accessible. And I see many designers will tack on an extra trip this year. Many of us, of course, went to London for Design Destination London, which I'm curious to hear your thoughts on as well, because that seems to be another event that's gotten a big following and a lot of people are going to. You might have to show up there, Olivier. I don't know.
- [06:46]
A
Do you have a presence in London?
- [06:48]
B
How do you show up there?
- [06:49]
C
We do have a presence. We have a showroom in the London Design Center. But for now, Paris is still the main draw for international crowd.
- [06:57]
B
So the rest of the year, that beautiful showroom of yours in Paris, what's.
- [07:02]
A
Going on the rest of the time?
- [07:04]
C
Well, it's unlike in the us it's a ground floor showroom. And so in Europe, we actually still have a significant retail business, whereas in the US the majority of the business is to the design community. And that's why it's really a flagship. We change the decor at least twice a year. There's another design event, Paris Design Week in September, which is also during Maison Objet, which is another very, very important week. And we actually see quite a few designers from the US going around that time as well.
- [07:44]
B
I'm so curious about that, Olivier. The retail aspect it in Europe. And so as you were just describing, you're servicing these retail clients. So what are Parisians buying and doing? Are they coming in and having curtains made? Are they buying? I mean, tell me how they're interacting with wall coverings and fabric with you on their own.
- [08:07]
C
It's not uncommon in France for an end user, for example, wanting to redecorate part of the house, maybe just change a wallpaper or maybe reupholster a so and what they'll do is they'll contact an installer or they will contact a workroom and they'll select a fabric or wallpaper themselves and then basically contract the workroom or the installer to execute the job. I think in the US the system works a little bit different. We're to the trade only typically it's all through designers. So it's a bit of a different, I think, culture.
- [08:48]
B
Yeah, I'm so curious about it because in the US there's this prec that people wouldn't know where to go to your point. Somebody who's going to make the curtains or someone who's going to come and install the wallpaper, it's much more challenging. Do Parisians just know people? Do they have contractors and people that they can just call in and say, hey, come and hang some wallpaper for me? Or friends?
- [09:11]
C
Well, there are actually quite a few retail stores that carry various wallpaper lines and fabric lines and you can actually just walk in. They're like boutiques, ground floor boutiques where you can walk in even work rooms that have, like a really nice window and they've got a wonderful display where you can basically walk in and have a coffee, select a fabric, select a wall covering and yeah, without actually the intervention of the designer.
- [09:39]
B
It's so interesting. I mean, it seems like such an opportunity in the us but it never has materialized into something meaningful. And I don't know if it's a big percentage of your business in par the retail customer, but it sounds like it is.
- [09:54]
C
Yeah. Actually, the retail business is still very significant in Europe, but in the US it's close to non existent.
- [10:02]
B
Exactly.
- [10:03]
C
There are, obviously, if you go especially, you can see that in Florida, but I would say anywhere across the US you do have quite a few wallpaper resellers that do offer installation services. So it's not that you do have to come to the Elite's showroom. There are resellers where you can perfectly walk in, select a wall covering, and yeah, more often than not, they'll offer installation services as well.
- [10:33]
B
Yeah, well, I don't know. One day when agentic AI is just shopping for everyone, I wonder, right, if we're going to have to figure that out. We'll talk more about that later. But coming back to Paris, what was your sense? So a lot of American designers came over. Did they seem like their business was doing well? Were they in high spirits? They usually are when they come to Paris. But what was your sen?
- [10:55]
C
Yes, they usually are. And I feel, you know, the great part of the US market is everyone is always very enthusiastic, very positive. They're always very excited to see new things. And so the atmosphere, I will say, is always great. And we feel that they are very busy. You know, we had a great year last year and it feels like we're off to a great start. So, you know, with all of the, you know, tariffs and everything that happened, where obviously everybody was holding their breath, you know, in the end, you know, it turned out to go pretty well.
- [11:34]
B
To go pretty much. And did that surprise you were you anticipating it to be a more challenging year? I was certainly anticipating it to be a more challenging year.
- [11:42]
C
Yes. Yes. And I think. I think we all were. I think we all were anticipating it to be. To be a rough year, but in the end, it turned out well. And, you know, I guess, you know, the market has proven to be very, very resilient. And I think as long as demand is there, it seems like at least the stock market was, you know, keeping up.
- [12:04]
B
Yes.
- [12:05]
C
We're in the luxury segments, so I think in that respect, you know, people were just, you know, they just kept going and. Yeah. And the demand was there.
- [12:15]
B
Yeah. Well, hopefully the recent stock market correction doesn't, doesn't throw any of this off, off course. And, and how quickly will the product arrive in the state? So it used to be you'd come to Paris, and part of the reason you went to Paris, because it wasn't going to be another three months, six months before you saw it in the U.S. right. But now it's a much shorter lead time.
- [12:37]
C
Yes, correct. So typically for us, Europe is now about a month, I would say ahead. So they have a bit of a head start, but usually by the second half of February, we're shipping out all of the novelties to our agent, to our reps across the country. Once it hits end of February, early March, they have everything in hand to go and see clients. And then we're installing this place and the wings and the boards in the showrooms.
- [13:05]
A
Right.
- [13:06]
B
So will the D and D showroom get some. Get a bit of a facelift with all the new things coming in?
- [13:12]
C
Yes, the facelift usually happens around March because, you know, usually we also have to get some furniture in. It's not just about changing the wall covering and. And the fabrics. Usually we change the furnishings as well. So, yeah, we just expanded the New York showroom, so now we have additional display. Luckily, we have a great team in France who helps us with all the proposals and the stylists helping us with setting all that up.
- [13:42]
B
Let's tell people a little bit. Many of our listeners might not be overly familiar with LEDs, and it's a relatively young company. Often we're talking to heritage brands that are going into the archives and going back hundreds of years. Tell us about the origin of El Atisse and what we should know.
- [14:00]
C
All right, so, yes, you're right. Elitist is not a heritage brand. We are celebrating almost four decades, though. So the company started in 1988 and was founded by Patrice Maraude Grotte, who still Today is actually very active in the company, especially on, you know, the supplier side and the sourcing side and product. And it started off as a company only doing wall covering. He had worked in textiles and wall covering before. Wasn't very happy with the direction it was going and a little frustrated with the product that was coming out. And he saw really an opportunity to build his own company. And it's the classic story, starting in a space that he was allowed to use from a friend, packing boxes, picking up the telephone, going around retail stores with wallpaper, trying to sell rolls. And it was very, very successful from there on. A few years later, started textiles and. Yeah, so we've actually been doing fabrics and wall coverings for almost four decades.
- [15:10]
B
So I was trying to think, and maybe you can help me, Olivier, what was Patrisse seeing that he was frustrated with? Where did he think this opportunity was? It seems like such a crowded space, right? There's tons of wallpaper, there's tons of fabric. What do you mean? You've got something new, you've got something different. What did he not like about what was out there at the time in the late 80s? What was he seeing and what was he frustrated by?
- [15:38]
C
Yes, I think it's not that he didn't like. I think it's more of seeing an opportunity to do things a little more contemporary and a little bit more forward thinking, rather than, for example, doing traditional damasks and traditional prints and working from archives. He felt that there was so much inspiration out there through the art community or fashion industry and from traveling. He was already, when he was working for a fabric company, he was traveling in India in the 60s and the 70s for months on end, sourcing silks and different fabrics. So he's very well traveled and he had a lot of inspiration and he just felt like there was an opportunity to do something a little more forward thinking.
- [16:27]
B
Well, that's it, isn't it, really? He wanted to be more innovative, he wanted to be more contemporary. He was willing, it seems like, to experiment with different materials. I know at one point he had reached out to this company that was working on manufacturing brassieres to better understand how they were studying their fabrics and materials and how they, how they interacted.
- [16:50]
C
Yes, yes. And even to this day, we actually really love pushing the artisans and the mills in doing new things. For example, we've worked with suppliers that had never produced any wall covering and that used to work in the fashion industry. And then through having a good relationship and through working closely together, we've been able to develop, for example, 3D thermoform wall coverings. And that's all.
- [17:23]
B
So what does that mean?
- [17:24]
C
What does that mean? 3D thermometer? Yes.
- [17:26]
B
So.
- [17:29]
C
In the garment industry you have a womenswear that is made out of styrofoam that is covered with jersey like fabric and very interesting material. And we were able actually to convert that onto a non woven backing. And with thermoform embossing, we were able to do our own designs. And that's how we got 3D acoustic wall coverings. Our designers and I think that's really what's at the core here is they're true artists. So they're constantly making prototypes. For example, they're hand beading, they're sculpting plaster, they're working maquettes made out of clay that we sent to suppliers to then convert into papier marche designs and so on and so on. So it's really what's at the core is really that creativity because there's I think a lot of jobbers out there who select what's available at the mills and they'll make their own color story. We're a little bit on the opposite end of the spectrum and we're always very keen on doing our own thing and alter things and so on. You know, that being said, there's often really nice things to be found at some of these mills who can be very, very creat, but we have the tendency to always alter it and bring our own designs and do our own prototypes.
- [18:55]
A
We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta beautiful interiors. Start with the right foundation. Get custom sized rugs from Ernesta designed to your project's precise dimensions, delivered in as little as two weeks. Join Ernesta's trade program to also receive complimentary unlimited samples, exclusive discounts and personalized support. To apply for membership to Ernesta's trade program or to learn more, visit ernesta.com boh and now back to the show.
- [19:34]
B
So when does it transition from poor Patrice having to go door to door with the wallpaper and. And is it the showroom that opens? And tell me how the business grows from those early days.
- [19:46]
C
Yeah, so in the early days obviously the focus was very much on France, which is a relatively large market in and of itself. And still today it's our second largest market.
- [20:00]
B
It is.
- [20:01]
C
So the US is our number one market, but Europe as a whole obviously still leads. But yeah, it's developing France in the early years and then little by little, the adjacent Countries. We export to over 100 countries today. And we've been active in the United states for over 20 years. As things go, at some point you transition in your most mature markets to starting your own entities, starting your own flagship showrooms and having your exclusive rep site, which is the case in most major markets today.
- [20:42]
B
Yeah. Which I want to talk about because you come over to the States and. Was Dongia your first showroom partner?
- [20:51]
C
Actually, it was not. We first started off at Kalamandre in the very, very, very early days.
- [21:00]
B
Okay, interesting.
- [21:02]
C
Yes. But you know, that was really before my time. But as you know, at some point with Kalamandri, it didn't go so well. And then, then we had to transition.
- [21:12]
B
Right. Had to jump off that ship and.
- [21:15]
C
We had to jump off that ship. And then we, we joined Dongya in most markets and that was actually very successful. It allowed us to have broad distribution across the United States. And at some point you do start to reach a level where you hit a ceiling. That was the case in New York, for example, where we felt there wasn't much more room to grow. Where the brand just needed to be to have more focus, dedicated team, especially on the road, but also having our own showroom. So we started exploring where do you open the showroom in New York? Obviously there's the DND, there's 200 Lex and even still today, I think for wall covering and fabrics, D and D is the destination. So yeah, we explored if there was any available space, space there. And yeah, lucky enough there was two spaces. Which one was the perfect size?
- [22:14]
B
Well, I'm always curious to your point about outgrowing your multi line showroom in, in a market and maybe you, you get a sense, I never know, is it a dollar amount? Listen, if we hit a million dollars in sales, we're going to go out on our own. Is it, is it just a sense that you're working with enough designers that you can sustain really having your own show?
- [22:35]
A
Think about it.
- [22:36]
C
Right? So it's always a risk. And, and there isn't, there isn't a fixed dollar amount. I would say it's just, you know, you feel the atmosphere, you feel, you know, how much time is being dedicated to your brand. How is your display, you know, how's the, how's the team? I think if you're in a multi line showroom and you feel that the potential is still there and, and, and you're getting the, the right attention, then I don't think there's any reason to move out. It's Just when you start. Start seeing that it's plateauing and when you want to take certain actions or more activate the brand inside the showroom, and when you feel a certain reluctance or resistance or people not really going along, then that's when I guess you have to start exploring options. And that's what we did in New York. And then about four years ago, we opened Florida and Los Angeles at the same time, and we're now about to open Dallas in the spring. And I think our timing was. Was great because we signed our leases in 2020 for Florida and Los Angeles, and we basically opened in 2021 right when the market was roaring back. So we were able to ride that wave. Yeah. So that was lucky for us. Great timing. And yeah, now in Dallas, it's a major market and I think hopefully we'll do quite well there.
- [24:02]
B
Well, I mean, as you say, you've had great timing all around. Sadly, Dangia in 2020 goes away. And really, I want people to remember Dangia as it once was, because back in the day, it was such a powerful showroom. All of the top designers were coming through those doors. And I think, as you and I have talked about, you were lucky in the early days to be there and to have. Have that exposure. I don't know if on your own, you could have built up that designer following.
- [24:32]
C
No. So it's definitely much more complicated to knock on doors of independent agents one by one and set up representation. So the fact that we were able to be present across major markets in the US Definitely helped. Dongyo had fantastic showrooms, fantastic attendance, fantastic brands, and they had a very good team.
- [24:58]
A
Team.
- [24:59]
C
Even today we have a few ex Dongya employees at the company who are really stellar. So, yeah, so that was definitely great for the brand. But then, as you know, it started plateauing for them. And then they had a really, really large spaces, so very, you know, intense, intense leases, and they had to start scaling it back. And, you know, we felt it wasn't going in the right direction, so we started moving to independent agent showrooms in some markets and then in other markets, we felt it was the right time to open our own.
- [25:36]
B
So you got a sense that things weren't going in the right direction with Dongya even before you. Because you left years before they actually filed for bankruptcy.
- [25:43]
A
Yeah.
- [25:44]
C
Yes, yes. So we had left for a while already in New York, and then we started moving to independent showrooms in other markets because we felt that was the right move, transitioning from more to more independent showrooms that don't have their own brand, because obviously for Dangia, there was always a big interest to push their own brands, which Rubelli, Dongia, Dominique, Kiefer.
- [26:11]
B
And so forth, which is always challenging when the showroom has their own stable of brands. And of course, they want to promote those.
- [26:18]
A
Right.
- [26:19]
B
And there's a feeling that there's a competition with the house brands, and that's. That's never ideal.
- [26:25]
C
Yes. And it's actually quite unique in our industry. Right. Sometimes, when you think about it, that all these brands are being represented essentially by competitors. It's not that we have the same offering. It's a very different look. But at the end of the day, some of the offer overlaps. But this is how it goes in our industry.
- [26:47]
B
It's one of the many quirks of our industry, which is sometimes confusing. But coming back to you, opening showrooms, and we mentioned expanding in the D and D, which is a big commitment in and of itself. And I know lots of challenges around the D and D building, but even this showroom in Dallas, I wonder. I assume that this means you imagine showrooms continuing to have an important role in how designers interact with product, how they specify, even though we're told attendance is down around the country at all these different design centers. I take it that for you, it's still worth this investment because it's such an important revenue generator and just exposure for you.
- [27:38]
A
But tell me how you think about it.
- [27:39]
C
Yes. So I think showrooms really give you the opportunity to showcase and also, you know, radiate the DNA and the look of your brand. We also try to create showroom spaces where people feel very comfortable and they feel like they want to stick around, maybe have a coffee. Clients often telling us that they really love coming into our showroom, and they actually, sometimes they sit down, they have a conversation, so they don't just walk in, shop and walk out. And that's really the atmosphere that we want to create and recreate in Dallas. Because a lot of showrooms these days, I feel when I go out and about and I explore, I can easily walk into five different showrooms and nobody saw me, nobody said hello, and it feels a little cold. So we really want to counter that and create a warm atmosphere. And you'll always have designers that don't go to showrooms, whether they're too far away or they feel that they're too busy. But there's a large segment that still loves to go to a showroom, and they want to feel the fabric, they want to have a conversation in person. And take the time to really see and feel because at the end of the day, everything is very tactile. You know, how does the color look in artificial light? How does it look in daylight? Yeah, maybe shop for alternatives and have someone really assist them in person with their project. So we're definitely doubling down on this and, you know, especially in major markets. But the key is you. You know, as for every business, you need to have the right people and the right space, and people want to do business with people that they like and they want to go to a space that they enjoy.
- [29:25]
B
And at the same time, as you're investing in showrooms, you're also heavily investing in the website and online and social. I mean, so tell me how you think about those investments relative to the showrooms and how important they are.
- [29:45]
C
Right, so we invest a lot in photography and in video because as we just discussed, there's also a whole segment that potentially only shops online or explores online. You know, some people do both. But it's important that we can make the people dream and that we can really showcase different settings of how our product can be used. So we very often rent beautiful spaces or a house in the Mediterranean where we have stylists and photographers sending product installation, as you can imagine, very costly. But it really allows us to really stand apart and make people dream and see different settings. And I think that's something that we'll definitely continue on doing. Even today, I would say with all the 3D renderings and AI products and all that, you can create videos with a prompt. But, I mean, to this day, I still haven't really seen any of those photos or videos, at least for our industry, that are really up to the level where it needs to be, especially the fact that it's all texture and tactile. You just can't have the same effect as photographing.
- [31:06]
B
The real problem, nothing can rival you. Renting the house in the Mediterranean.
- [31:11]
A
Right.
- [31:11]
B
And bringing in the stylus and all of that. No, I completely agree. What I'm curious about, because I'm frustrated sometimes, Olivier, when I see companies not investing in photography where they're not investing enough, where they're skimping out on that, where the product is incredible, but the photography is second rate. And I wonder, what is it culturally about your company? Who's setting the tone for what an important priority that is? Is that you? Is that patrisse? Is that. Who's saying this is where we're gonna spend our money? Because this is. And I love the way you said radiate the DNA of your brand. This is how people need to see you through these impressive images.
- [31:55]
C
Right. It's really a team effort. Obviously, we have our marketing department and we have our artistic director and there's obviously Patrice that contributes to that. But it's almost impossible today to really have all the talent in house. So we do work with agencies and we do work with stylists and obviously photographers that really help us translate the message or the image that we're trying to bring. We have to explain to them obviously what the collection is about. And then we have people sourcing different locations. They have sourcing different types of furniture. Could be modern, could be mid century, really, depending on the collection, depending on the location, and then really put something together where you can really sell the product. And designers, they're often really complimenting us when they go through our collections and they see the photography and they're just, wow, the photography is just so amazing. And it really helps me sell the product also to their client because we very often are asked for the photography, sometimes in different colors than the ones we shot. Unfortunately, we can't shoot every single color. We do it the best we can.
- [33:07]
B
Well, what I'm wondering about is the percentage of how you look at it as a line item on your budget. Do you say, okay, we're gonna spend 5% of our revenue on marketing or how do you think about. Because it's a lot of money today to feed the website, to feed social media, to create. Right. It's a lot of money. How do you arrive at the amount you're comfortable spending is I guess, really my question.
- [33:35]
A
Question.
- [33:35]
C
So it's really a percentage. It's really a percentage. You know, you see where your annual sales are. You know, how much is the business has grown, and it's a, it's a ratio. Just like, what's the percentage?
- [33:47]
B
What do you use? What do you say? You say 5%, you say 10%.
- [33:52]
C
What is it? Yeah, that's something that we're going to keep in house. Okay, okay.
- [33:55]
B
But it's a, it's a bunch of money.
- [33:57]
A
Yeah.
- [33:57]
C
Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a substantial budget, obviously, as you can see, because video and photography does not come to cheap. And. Yeah, but you know, we want to embrace new technology as well. So, for example, with the Paris Olympics, we did a little AI video where we had an. An air balloon take off in the streets of Paris. And you know, the, the balloon itself was in. Is one of our fabrics. So I think, you know, you have to embrace new technology. I don't, I don't think, I don't think we should neglect it, but I think there's, there's, there's certain formats, there's certain opportunities, and I think you really have to judge where it's appropriate to deploy it.
- [34:39]
B
It certainly seems as if AI, which is getting increasingly better by the minute, it's probably improved just since we started talking. Claude has probably introduced some new tool just since this conversation began. So of course you're going to start to incorporate it in some way. I'm sure your marketing team is trying to find clever ways for AI to create animated images or help them in any number of ways. And I don't know if you can imagine in back of house artificial intelligence creating efficiencies for you. I don't know if you're experimenting with that or not, but I would assume that's coming.
- [35:13]
C
Yes, it's definitely a hot topic. And I think especially for productivity, for productivity, it's something that everyone should be using, but I don't think we should be using it just for, just for sake of cost, pure cost cutting or taking shortcuts. I think there's like certain things that really have to stay intact. Yeah, like I said, just making a fun little video for the Olympics or for the Christmas holidays. I think that's a great way to.
- [35:41]
A
Use it and other technologies in our industry.
- [35:44]
B
For example, digital printing has gotten wildly popular and lots of companies here in the States are putting out digitally printed.
- [35:52]
A
Textiles and wall coverings.
- [35:55]
B
Is that showing up in your world in a meaningful way?
- [35:58]
C
Yes, and actually I dare say that we were very early, very early with.
- [36:03]
A
That.
- [36:05]
C
Almost 15 years ago, we started adding digitally printed murals on our textured grounds in at least two or three in each collection. So we've been working that technique for a very long time. Obviously that has accelerated really fast, especially over the last seven, eight years.
- [36:25]
A
Years.
- [36:25]
C
And so we've continued to have more offerings with every launch. And then at some point we actually launched a few digital only collections with murals instead of blending it in with regular wall coverings. And yeah, it's been very successful. I think people really love it. It's great as an artwork, as a focal wall, and people can adjust the dimensions and there's no minimum. So, you know, it offers a lot of flexibility. And yeah, clients are really enjoying, really enjoying that. We just try to bring it on more of a textured ground, not just print it on a smooth or flat ground just to make it a little more interesting.
- [37:11]
A
We're taking a quick break to remind.
- [37:13]
B
You about Sixpenny, imagine for just a.
- [37:16]
A
Moment having a state of the art furniture brand as your very own bespoke manufacturer.
- [37:22]
B
Imagine the look your clients will give.
- [37:24]
A
You when they realize you mean custom, when you tell them their unique specs won't be a problem. Sixpenny is more than just a furniture brand. They're a custom shop for trade members, offering customizations on any catalog pieces to suit the exact specifications of your next project. Add in a fabric catalog made entirely of all natural and recycled materials, and you're well on your way to something truly special. And best of all, their President's Day sale starts Wednesday, February 11th. Visit sixpenny.com BOH to enjoy 20% off orders over $1,000 using the code HIBERNATE. That's S I X P-E-N-N-Y.com B O H Code Hibernate. And now back to the show.
- [38:21]
B
You know, we mentioned samples earlier, and one of the biggest issues that the fabric industry struggles with is the runaway.
- [38:30]
A
Costs of fabric samples.
- [38:32]
C
Right.
- [38:32]
B
And I'm guessing, I'm guessing that with many of your product, your samples are even more expensive than someone who's. Right. Who's just cutting a piece of linen or cutting a velvet. Right. So how, how do you deal with that? And, and have you found any innovative.
- [38:49]
A
Way to control costs in that area.
- [38:52]
B
Or come up with some kind of a, a substitute for just a plain sample? What do you do?
- [38:58]
C
Sampling is, is really cost of doing business. And it's, it's really, again, it's a ratio. It's a ratio that you build in. We know this X percentage that, that is being spent on, on giving sampling away, especially sampling goes out for free, which is not the case in all markets. But, you know, in the US we don't sell any books, we don't sell any samples.
- [39:20]
B
And do people back home think that's crazy, that in the US you're just giving away all these samples? Do the people in Toulouse go, what are you doing in America?
- [39:28]
C
Right, right. But then they see the numbers and then they see like, okay, this is the cost of doing business and this is how it works. So they've come around. Yeah, but the volume. The volume is substantial. Yeah, the volume is substantial, but yeah, that's how the market works and we have to work with it and we have to factor it in.
- [39:46]
B
So it's just a cost of doing business and that's what you come to. But I mean, again, I'm just imagining, Olivier, that some of your samples just Must be so expensive. And you're not getting them back.
- [39:58]
A
Right.
- [39:58]
B
Or even if they're coming back, they're not coming back in the great shape. You're not gonna be able to.
- [40:02]
C
No, exactly, exactly. I mean, we do have. Especially in the D and D, we have people that come back with bags of samples, but, you know, we consider them gone. We consider them gone, yes.
- [40:13]
B
I don't know what's ever gonna change there. I really don't. I mean, mercifully, we don't do books in the US Cause imagine in the US if you were giving away all these books the way you do, the way you sell them in Europe and elsewhere in the US we'd want them for free. So that would really be. Right.
- [40:28]
C
And then there's also the CFAs.
- [40:29]
B
Well, exactly.
- [40:31]
A
So how does the CFA show up in your world?
- [40:33]
C
Yes, the cfas is, you know, is something that I'm not going to say doesn't exist in Europe, but it's quite. Quite rare. But, yeah, in the us, more often than not, people request the cfa.
- [40:45]
B
And why.
- [40:46]
A
Why do they need the CFA in the us?
- [40:48]
C
Well, I guess.
- [40:49]
B
Is that a question you're asking yourself all the time?
- [40:54]
C
Sometimes it's just part of protocol. You know, it's. That's just how it is. You have to request the cfa.
- [40:59]
B
It's just checking a box.
- [41:00]
C
That's just how it is. Checking a box.
- [41:01]
A
Correct.
- [41:02]
B
Okay. And the whole issue of performance fabrics.
- [41:05]
A
And solution, dyed acrylics were very worried about spilling wine. I would think the French are drinking far more red wine, Olivier, than the Americans.
- [41:13]
B
Correct me if I'm wrong. And they don't seem as worried. Exactly, exactly. Americans are drinking less.
- [41:18]
A
Right.
- [41:19]
B
I thought this problem was going away. So is the demand for performance fabric.
- [41:24]
A
Still such a big issue?
- [41:25]
C
It is. And I think especially designers that have clients with children and.
- [41:31]
B
Do the French have children? Do they also have children over in France? They do. Right. The last time I checked.
- [41:37]
C
Yeah. They still do. They still do.
- [41:38]
B
Okay. Do they. Are they not allowed on the sofa in France? I mean, what's the difference? Help me understand.
- [41:42]
C
Well, actually. Actually, it works very well in Europe as well. Yeah. Yes, it's. Yeah, I think it's. It has blown over to. To Europe.
- [41:49]
B
Oh, so they see it. They see it now and they want it. They want the performance fabrics of French as well.
- [41:55]
C
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [41:56]
B
Got it. All right.
- [41:57]
C
But, you know, there's a. There's. There's often this ecological aspect to it where people say, you know, it's. It's A poly and so on. But then again, when people use a linen and then they, if they have to change it out after two, three years because, I don't know, they can't get the stains out and maybe they're able to last longer with the solution dyed. I mean, you know, there's pros and cons to every product and every product has its place. Me personally, I would go for the natural, the linen, but that's a personal thing.
- [42:29]
B
Yeah, yeah. No, no. And I always say, you know, wool, an amazing performance fabric that's been around for hundreds of years. But I sort of joke about the performance fabric. I get it in certain applications and I certainly for hospitality and elsewhere, I completely understand. But I just, this whole kids and golden retrievers and climbing on your sofas, I think it's just part of life, right? Get a beautiful throw from Rosemary Hallgarten or something and there you are, you're, you're all set. The dog can just curl up there in that lovely alpaca and be happy. But we mentioned the fact that 2025 was a, it seems like across the board, from what I can sense from the high end fabric houses, seems to have been a pretty good year for most people unless they were doing something terribly wrong. But I'm tired of talking about tariffs.
- [43:22]
C
Yes, me too.
- [43:23]
B
Right? Everyone's getting tired of talking about tariffs. Have we just gotten used to it it and it's not having as meaningful an impact anymore. Have you made whatever adjustments you're making to your pricing? For a hot minute, Europe looked like it was going to have an additional tariff because of Greenland. That seems to have gone away. How are you thinking about pricing and how are your partners thinking about pricing? Are you getting a lot of price increases that you're having to deal with?
- [43:51]
C
Well, yeah, we keep a close finger on the pulses and I've always consulted with different people in the industry, especially also regarding the tariffs, like who was going to do what, how are we going to handle it, price it in or have it as a surcharge and so on. And I think luckily it was all over the news all the time. So we never really had to explain ourselves towards the client because everyone knew what was going on. But yeah, it was substantial and still substantial. So it's not something you can, can just easily entirely absorb. So, you know, we had to do an exercise in like, you know, how do we, how do we bake it in at least partially and then absorb another part to, you know, to dampen the shock. But all in all, I Think we've been able to really navigate it very well. And, you know, all partners and clients have really been. Have really been great. You know, we had no pushback whatsoever. So I think we've been able to overcome it. And as we mentioned, in the end, it was a pretty fantastic year. So on and upward.
- [45:00]
B
Well, I mean, that's the hope. And maybe we get some of this behind us. Everyone kept saying last year, oh, it would just be so great if we knew what costs were going to be and we knew what conditions were going to be like, maybe we have a little bit better sense of that this year. Although, stay tuned. Who knows what the next shock will be? But it sounds as if American designers were apparent in Paris. It sounds as if you're feeling expansionary opening some new showrooms. Florida has turned out to be a really strong market for you. Right. And so that's ended up being a good thing. Is there any area that you're concerned about or hasn't been behaving as well? Are there any areas that make you think, oh, gee, things are changing a little bit in this market?
- [45:47]
C
No, I feel very encouraged because also on the hospitality side, this year and last year, we're seeing some very strong activity. We have a significant performance product offering, actually, across the U.S. you know, through Los Angeles, through Vegas, through New York, hospitality has been very active, and we've had some really wonderful projects, which has also really helped to contribute to having a great year in challenges. I think, you know, we just need the stability. I think people really want to know where they're at, how to plan, plan, and for things to be consistent and stable, because obviously, changing tariffs and new threats and having to navigate all that doesn't make it easy to really plan for the future.
- [46:33]
B
Coming back to this whole conversation that we were having about people that are only going on the website, and I talk to so many designers who say, oh, I wish my team was getting out there more. I wish they were getting to showrooms. And you try and make the website. Website as good as you possibly can. I get the sense that orders aren't being placed. Sample requests are being placed on a website. Right. But you're not going all the way through and ordering 100 yards of something without somebody coming to the showroom or at least picking up the phone, I'm assuming.
- [47:04]
C
Yes, yes, exactly. So even for sampling, we sell only to the trades, and we only offer samples to the trade. And so, so we do need to qualify and see if the person in question or the client in question is in the system before we hand out any samples. Yeah. And then for the orders, we do sell a lot of product by the yard, not by the roll. So not just for fabrics, but also in specialty wall coverings. Anything that is handmade or fabric wall coverings and so on, it's sold by the art. So usually collectively, we need to know what the elevations are, what the minimum cut sizes are. So we have to walk clients actually through our stock and really offer them exactly what they need with the advantage that there's minimal waste.
- [47:53]
B
So what do we do collectively as an industry to get people to come to showrooms more? What does the industry have to do? And I was talking about this with a new gallery owner the other day who said, I just whipped. They would be this return to foot traffic. He's got a gallery a block away from the D and D building. He wants the D and D building to be active so that they come to his gallery afterwards. And I get that. And there used to be a time where that's what designers did. They would go to the D and D and then they'd shop around a bunch of the galleries around the neighborhood. What do we do to get people back into stores, into showrooms?
- [48:30]
C
Yeah, it's a great question, and I do think maybe it's a personal impression, but if I can speak for myself, you know, having the online tool and explore things online is fantastic, but just really enjoying. To go to a showroom and to go to a store, especially if it's well put together and they have a great team and they have a great offering, I think that's all you can do. And I think you really need to do good outreach, update people on when there's novelties in the showroom. And overall, having a great customer service and a great customer experience inside the space, and I think that's where would make people come and come back. I think most clients have maybe top five showrooms in mind when they go to the D and D. Yes. They're not going to go floor by floor and explore every showroom. So I think it's more of a question of how do you remain top of mind? And to be top of mind, I think we're going back to doing great photography, offering great product, great customer service, and a great experience overall.
- [49:33]
B
Well, I almost feel, particularly with your product.
- [49:35]
A
Product, it's like, look, if you love how it looks online, wait till you.
- [49:39]
B
See it in the showroom. Like, it's going to be even better. Like, if you're excited about it on your freaking Phone. Wait till you actually are in front of it in the showroom. But I know that that's not always a connection that people make.
- [49:51]
C
No. And then they can order a sample, but a sample is only not very large. So I think when. Especially when it's a pattern, I think at some point they have to come to the show and really see the large piece. You know, some people are just very good, and they can perfectly, I guess, project on how it's going to look on an entire wall. On a large piece or a large sofa.
- [50:12]
B
Yeah, no, no. And many designers are incredible at that. And obviously, they have great visual skills and they can. They can see it and they don't need to. But I just feel something gets lost in the translation. And I. And I. And I guess romantically, I just long to go back to a day where we were talking about department stores the other day and how they're all going away. And to me, that's so sad. Sad, because department stores are often this incredible experience where you discover new product, you see merchants putting together incredible displays, you meet someone for lunch, you buy a new watch, whatever it is. You just have a different experience. And Amazon does not deliver that experience, Olivier.
- [50:53]
C
No, it does not. I will say I do love, like, the London Design center because you have that large, open atrium. You can see people sitting in the center at the cafe, having lunch or drink, and then go up to the showrooms. And I think that's a building format that is very, very appealing. But unfortunately, we do not have that in New York.
- [51:14]
B
No. And it's such a great point. And Chelsea harbor, there's a great cafe and there's lots of light, and you just feel like there's a lot going on there. And that's some of what we need.
- [51:25]
A
To bring to the D and D building. I don't know if it's going to.
- [51:27]
B
Be Mr. Cohen that's going to deliver that for us, but I think hopefully another. A new owner one day will make that transformation. My last question for you as we wrap up, Olivier. I'm wondering often when I talk to people in the fabric and wallpaper business and many parts of our business, our industry seems like we've been doing business in much the same way for decades. Nothing's all that different from when Patrice was going around with his wallpaper. Right. Than today, despite all the technology that we have and AI and all of that, is there anything you can imagine that could come along to really transform or change how this business runs?
- [52:15]
A
Do you look out on the horizon.
- [52:18]
B
And see something coming that's going to disrupt all of this. What's your sense? You've been in the business for a long time now, right.
- [52:25]
C
And I don't really see it changing because I feel you, you know, we're in the luxury segment. It's a very tactile product. And I just don't see how technology or even, you know, the online business can really change that. I think, you know, people have just more tools at their disposal to see and explore. But at the end of the day, I just don't see how it can really, really change in the, in the near future. And I think we also really like the way it is. Sure, there's differences in different markets, like the US versus Europe. In Europe, we don't really have these trade prices like we have in the US we're open to everyone, but for now, I think we are where we. I think it's here to stay. I know we've had places like Material bank showing up and all that, trying to disrupt, Disrupt the business. I, I just do feel for our segment that really hasn't had much of an impact and people still want to do business and explore the brand directly rather than through a platform like Material bank, where things get very commoditized and that's just not where we're at.
- [53:40]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. And that was one of the, that was one of the things to come along to your point that I think many people thought, oh, this is going to be a real, real game changer. And it turned out it wasn't in a meaningful way. I mean, perhaps on the contract side, it's a great efficiency tool and all of that, and I understand that. But as you were just suggesting, many companies felt it was just commoditizing their product in a way that they didn't welcome. And here you are renting homes in the Mediterranean and trying to take great photo shoots and separate the look and feel of your product and suddenly you're next to everybody else's. It doesn't feel quite the same, and I can understand that. And I don't know what's going to lead to the return to design centers if they just have to become a much more compelling experience. I do feel that people will show up for something spectacular. I feel like the Printemps store that opened downtown. Right. People come from all over to see that. Or the Frick Museum reopened and people were standing in line for days to go see that. So I, I mean, I do feel that if you build Something wonderful. They will come.
- [54:49]
C
Yes. And that's actually how we're trying different approaches. Like we are actually developing a new office space right across the Queensbridge in Long Island City, where you also have Atelier Jouffre and Somerset House and you have sample house there. So there's a lot of actually headquarters of design companies that, that have a.
- [55:12]
B
Footprint there and tell me what you'd like to see happen there. So in Long Island City, you've got a space and you're hoping that it's going to become an activation space of sorts.
- [55:21]
C
Yes, yes. Instead of just building out an office space, we really want to see it as an activation space where you can do, you know, host drinks, host dinners within the design community. Anyone that wants to do a product launch, for example, in furniture or in light, is to really bring design community together for various events in a really appealing space. And I think it's an opportunity to connect with designers in a different space also at a different time, because it's very hard to get clients into the D and D after 5pm so we're thinking a lot on co branding collaborations. As I mentioned, Atelier Jouffre is there. It's a great experience to see, you know, SOFA being upholstered potentially in their space or in our space. So there's a lot of like, cross branding that we can do and create a very appealing program to clients to have an experience.
- [56:22]
B
Well, I'm glad to hear that you're doing that. And I'm all for anyone trying anything to create more of an atmosphere. I'm frustrated by the current state of the D and D building as everyone in the industry is well aware of my frustrations and, and I listen and it's frustrating for the industry. So I hope that it will change because we need design centers to be a compelling place for people to come for the next generation. Because I don't want this young generation of designers to grow up thinking that design centers aren't meaningful. And I guess that's part of my concern.
- [56:54]
C
Yes. Or that is for a different generation. And I also hope that something happens where there's again, I don't know, a nice restaurant and a cafe and people feel like they can hang out there for half the day. But now people are basically zipping in and out and just there for the essentials and they're not sticking around.
- [57:12]
B
No, no. That's why I want it to be a whole hospitality experience. You look at what RH is doing, opening giant restaurants in all their stores and people are flocking to the place RH Paris. They were turning people away.
- [57:26]
C
So, I mean, people now go just for the restaurant? Yes, yes.
- [57:31]
B
I think a lot of people that were eating in RH Paris had no idea which was even a furniture store. Really. They were like, oh, this is lovely, but if that's what it takes, I mean, I'm all for it. And the D and D certainly used to have a restaurant. Okay. It was never a great restaurant, but it was a place where you could go and meet people, and people did. So I hope we get back to that. Anyway, I hope we return to more people just showing up in person. In a lot of ways, I think that would be good for our entire industry. Olivier, I thank you so much for making the time. I'm so delighted to get to speak with you.
- [58:03]
C
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me on the show. Dennis.
- [58:08]
A
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with.
- [58:10]
B
The latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join.
- [58:18]
A
Our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more.
- [58:25]
B
If you have a note for the.
- [58:26]
A
Podcast podcast, drop us a line@podcastbusinessofhome.com if.
- [58:31]
B
You'Re enjoying these conversations, please leave us.
- [58:33]
A
A review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show.
- [58:38]
B
This show was produced by Fred Nicholas.
- [58:39]
A
And edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.