A (3:33)

Yeah.

B (3:34)

I even see my father was. My parents came last week and that was so amazing. And. Yeah, how was that? It was incredible. Oh my God. But it just gives. It goes back to the element of time. It's. It's crazy. It's. Even my dad said it. I was like, oh my God, Neil, you're like an older man. Like you too, dad.

A (3:54)

Well, exactly. And you're both seeing each other in such a different role than you. Right. And at a different stage in your life. Did it take you back to your childhood and tell me a little bit about your childhood growing up in rural Ohio.

B (4:11)

Definitely. I love my childhood. I grew up on a farm. It was actually my father's farm. So two generations grew up there. My father grew up there with livestock and that's how they made a living thing. My parents took over that farm when my grandparents retired. And you know, it's a good. Also a great story of kind of America history because my grandparents grew up on a farm. My father and my mother both had part time jobs and then maintained the farm pretty much on weekends. It was kind of a part time thing. I grew up very middle class and my father was a butcher. My mother was a part time babysitter and librarian. I love my childhood. I also learned at a very young age, like I was different in terms of my sexuality. So I kind of hid myself in the basement and that actually made me very creative. I kind of dove into this world of crafting and woodworking and painting. I kind of withdrew from, I guess, my classmates. I knew I was different. I was kind of getting made fun of. Like, were you? Oh, definitely. It wasn't aggressive, but you know, I think every child has that. Of course, sure. But I just knew I was different. I was not good in most of the quote boy activities and my resolution for that was I'm just going to kind of stay away and do my own thing. I was also a very much of a loner. Like I'm very shy. I was, I still am, I think, shy. This may be. Shocks a lot of people, but I'm much more of an introvert. Work has made me quite different, but it still affects me quite a bit. I feel like I'm quote on a lot, but then I need those elements to Charge. Yeah. Which is kind of a. Definitely an element of our industry. You have to be on and selling and being that, quote, personality and, you know, clients are looking to you even. Even your energy level, like, is this the right thing? So, like, I've definitely learned to embrace that, but that was hard for me at the beginning. 100%, it was.

A (6:28)

So you were. So you were hiding out in the. In the basement, sort of exploring creativity.

B (6:34)

And my father actually bought me a band. So the age of six or seven, I forget.

A (6:40)

Wow. Yeah.

B (6:41)

So I was like, it's a pretty

A (6:42)

dangerous tool to be giving a child, but okay.

B (6:46)

Especially giving my dad. Now I'm like, I would never, never. But I loved it. And I started making all these things, woodworking and crafts and painting. And that's how I became a creative. And that's how. When I knew I was even in, like, elementary school and junior high, like, I was like, oh, I definitely want to be an architect, because it mixes creativity with logical thinking. I just knew I was always a creative. In addition to the bandsaw, there's another very important factor during my childhood where my parents renovated farmhouse, which was a very critical element that was like, aha, this is exactly what I want to do.

A (7:31)

And were you weighing in on decisions about the renovation?

B (7:35)

To be honest, I was very young. I was like seven or so, probably. I mean, I don't think I had much of a.

A (7:42)

You weren't called in to consult at age seven, right?

B (7:45)

No, I wasn't a designer at that point. Even now, I don't think my parents would take my ideas.

A (7:55)

I wondered. I wondered so often. It takes so long to us to prove ourselves, right?

B (8:01)

Yeah, exactly.

A (8:03)

They're like, what do you do again now?

B (8:04)

Exactly. But definitely it was that moment where it was a click for me where like, okay, this is a creative field that I could get into. That intrigued me immensely.

A (8:20)

So. And that's great. And I'm so glad that they were supportive. And it sounds like they really encouraged. And so when you thought about, how do I get to the big city? How did you ultimately leave the farm?

B (8:33)

I looked at several schools around Ohio and Indiana. I decided to go to Ball State University for architecture. Their program was very fascinating to me in that it had a great mix of professors that were very creative and also very technical. And looking back at it, I think that was very wise and very rare, to be honest. I remember going to some schools, and some schools were very. Either one way or the other, you know, I feel you didn't have that mix. They also Knew they were in the middle of America and they had great programs around the US and the world that I took full advantage of to see other cultures and situations and get outside my bubble. Went to Italy first a semester. Went to Miami, Florida actually for two and a half semesters. So we had a Cuban professor that developed a program down here and we were working with the city of Miami beach and I joined that with my friends and I loved it and it was an incredible opportunity and especially one of my big connections to the city to this day. We have a place down here and I am very fond of it. The history of the Art Deco and the whole. I mean this is back in the late 90s. I was going to college so it was hopping and Miami south beach was just happening and we were working with the city of south beach to document Art Deco buildings and obviously doing other works. It was incredible time. And so having those pieces of like, of that college and get, especially getting to Miami beach was really that nice stepping stone to then get to New York. Eventually worked for Architectonica, which was the first step to my career and tell me about that.

A (10:35)

I mean, and for those who aren't

B (10:36)

familiar, it was fantastic. They were working on huge scale projects. I mean it was like. It also was very creative and it was a huge office. It was a great way to really dive into the world of architecture. Instead of just drawing wall sections, I mean we were researching. This was back in the late 90s. They were doing a lot of work for Disney. I'm sure they still do, but they were doing the decade themed resorts. So each wing of this hotel complex was dedicated the 80s and the 90s and the 70s and the 60s. So I was, I was working on researching all these decades, like what was the most iconic element that could be put out of foam.

A (11:23)

What would convey that it was right.

B (11:25)

So I'm like, this is what we get to do. Amazing how many I chose, right?

A (11:32)

This is going to be a great career.

B (11:34)

This is incredible. I love this job.

A (11:37)

And here I thought architecture was going to be so dull.

B (11:41)

I know. Fast forward to the next job where I'm drawing.

A (11:44)

Where your soul is done.

B (11:48)

Yeah.

A (11:49)

Well, it's funny because often when I, when I talk to architects who make some kind of, of a pivot at some point in their career and move more into interiors, they, they find that the grind of, of architecture, first of all, I mean a lot of people find the math so challenging and a lot of the other components of it. Was that. Was that challenging for you, was it?

B (12:16)

No it's not challenging. I love, you know, I went to school for architecture. I still practice interior architecture. I'm not a licensed architect. I know there's a lot of, like, difference between that. So I'm not saying I'm anywhere near being a licensed architect, but we do a lot of, quote, architecture and interior design. Interior architecture and all of that. It's all kind of gray. Obviously, we work with a licensed architect to do all our work. Do I enjoy that aspect? Definitely. I definitely have a split left and right brain. I'm a Virgo, which I think a lot of designers are Virgos, so you need to have that organizational element because you're dealing with a lot of things. So with being a Virgo, I think it helps a lot. So studying plans and making sure plans all coordinate. I love that. It gives me goosebumps. I'm weird that way. But I also love, on the flip side, I've learned over the years, I, you know, interior design was something that was new to me at one of my first jobs and it took me out of that kind of rut of, oh, no, I'm actually doing a wall section to. This is fascinating. So diving into the world of carpets and fabrics was incredible. And I also geek out about that. And I love, you know, just debating a welt size and a, should it have a welt after deciding the half inch welt. So that is, that's the fun of what we do. And I love the design decisions and I love those details. The details are where the magic happens, in my opinion. I think a beautiful, incredible project has a lot of details. And that doesn't mean it's overdone. I think even the most minimal space has amazing details. Or, you know, there's that fine line of being minimal, which is boring. You know, I think, you know, those details make it rich and gorgeous. Whether it's the patina on the wood or the wood species or all above. It's that layer that we add that's so important.

A (14:22)

And how, how did you learn to think about what you, what you just articulated? We've been having a lot of conversations recently about this notion of how does one come by their, their taste?

B (14:38)

For me, I really am a strong believer it's repetition. No offense to my parents and my genetics, but I was not born with taste.

A (14:47)

I, let's just start there. Mom and dad, you're the best, but

B (14:52)

also love you better.

A (14:54)

Love you.

B (14:54)

But you, I don't think they have exceptions. Okay. It was trained.

A (15:00)

I, I, after, after the renovation, when you Were seven. Did you look around going, not, not the choices I would have made here.

B (15:08)

It's, it's been trained. I, it's repetition. It's repetition and exposure to that. And it's not just repetition though. It's also. And that's why I say exposure, because if it's just expo, you have to comprehend, see, try, do, fail, win. And so it's that you have to do things and fail and see things and succeed and then improve on that and that constant repetition. And that's why I'm a big believer that because I've been doing this since I was very young and painting and drawing. And so it's a continuation of all that. Even to this day, the work is continually growing for me. I'm constantly learning, constantly thinking of new ways and evolving based on that skill set.

A (15:59)

And when you go to learn, I mean, I want to, I want to come back to your, to your career path and the people that you worked for and with before you went out on your own. You worked for S. Russell Groves for I want to say, 10 years or so.

B (16:13)

10 years, right.

A (16:14)

And had your hands in a lot of different parts of, of, of that operation. And, and what was the, what was the zeitgeist at that firm? What, what was the, what were you telling people was the kind of work that you all were doing at that, at that time?

B (16:29)

I mean, we were doing, I mean, it was much different than what I do right now. We, we're doing a lot of high end retail.

A (16:35)

Right.

B (16:36)

And corporate work, which I loved. It's a different type of work though, to be really honest. And yes, we were also still doing some high end residential, but they were, I would say, a small percentage compared to the overall project flow there. And having my exposure to those small residential, but not small, the small projects, I guess in that office that were residential. I loved it. That also was a key moment for me where I like, oh, this is what I need to do. Like, I enjoyed the discussion of where socks and underwear go and talking about the, the linear footage and just how they, how people live and helping people how they live and showing people how to live. You know, I think that takes a certain type of mindset and I don't know what that is apparently, but I must like it. I think it's about creating, you know, definitely in any design, whether it's a retail or hospitality, you're definitely creating a mood. I think in your private home you're doing it at a greater scale. Scale in terms of you can, it's a much more intimate experience. Of course, it's much more personalized, of course, for a couple or a single person. So I think that's what really was fascinating to me, to kind of not only get into their lives and see what they are drawn to, but then filter all that through your lens.

A (18:00)

Well, I also think. And you just use the term showing people how to live. I think that that is one of the gifts of what designers give to their clients. Let me open up a world of how you could live and let me invite you to begin to live this way. And then suddenly they realize, oh wow, he didn't just buy me this beautiful sofa with a tasteful welt added, but also he showed me a whole way to live that has changed how I come at the world.

B (18:32)

Definitely. Most definitely. I think that's.

A (18:35)

Do you have to be a Virgo to be able to do that or can you? I mean, I'm a Scorpio. Is there any hope for me? I mean, I don't know.

B (18:41)

I don't know. Maybe we should do a full polling of volunteer. I feel a strong sense that there's a lot of Virgos.

A (18:50)

I get that sense as well. I get that.

B (18:52)

Yeah. Like everything in life, you don't have to be one thing or another to succeed. So I don't believe that. I think it does help you, but I.

A (19:01)

But I do think, I do think that element of helping people to see how to live better.

B (19:07)

Yes.

A (19:08)

And is often an undersold or under articulated aspect of what designers.

B (19:14)

Thousand percent. Thousand percent. I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of this profession. It's more than obviously buying things and even just curating things. It's this lifestyle that, that we are creating through our brand, our home especially, that really resonate with people that hire us, our clients, they want that lifestyle as well. In terms of how we live and how we approach our home. In terms of what does that feel like? You know, I mean, so like I think that's super important about creating that and expressing that to your clients.

A (20:00)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. If there's one thing we've all experienced, it's the difficulty of finding the right rug. From the awkward sizing to not quite right colors, the discovery of a rug that works in your client's space can be tricky, or at least it used to be. With Ernesta, you get custom sized rugs delivered in as little as two weeks. And as a trade member, the unlimited samples you receive ensure you and your Clients will find the right color and material as well. Become an Ernesta trade member today to explore the full assortment. Receive dedicated one on one support and gain access to preferred pricing. To learn more, visit ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh and now back to the show. So coming back to the career arc here, Neil. So you were doing a bunch of retail with S. Russell Groves. You discovered I love the residential even more. You finally leave that firm and go out on your own. What finally got you out the door and starting your own firm and tell me about that.

B (21:19)

It was just time. It was just the right time. It was during the economic downturn, which is historically when people start businesses.

A (21:29)

The great time to start a business during. Exactly.

B (21:33)

And it was 2010 and which for the interiors, I mean, I remember 2008, the financial crash, but it didn't really hit the design because we're so delayed in projects until much later. So during that point is when I started to start off, which actually was the best thing I've ever done and very happy I've done it. And I was hopping, I, I left and a few people found out and they reached out and started asking for help. And I quickly thought, okay, is this going to be something in the first week? And by the end of the month I'm like, I can't work from home. I need an office because this is crazy. And by, I think it was like by the second or third month, had five employees. It was, it was happy. I mean, but also, you know, remember this, when you're young and you start an office, you don't have like the Hamptons estate. You don't, you have small projects, you take what you can and you should and you use those to become a better designer and create your office. And that's what I did. And it was an incredible period. I loved it. It was very overwhelming at times, of course, but at the same time, when you own your own business, I feel like you always feel like you have to pivot at a certain point. I feel like we're pivoting now again with the times changing with AI and just overall how things are done. So you constantly have to pivot in your career. But that first time doing your launching your business, it's a scary time. It's a whole nother mindset. Even you know, being a studio director at other offices is doing it for yourself. It's a whole nother level of pressure and it's your full name on the door and just having that element and Level to it was incredible but also very exciting and something I still have amazing fond memories of to this day.

A (23:43)

The early day scrambles and all of that.

B (23:46)

Yes, yes.

A (23:47)

And getting a business off the ground. And I'm wondering what helped you to. So as you say you had been running or helping to run a very well known firm and a big team and then going out on your own. How did you get yourself out there? I know that Mitch Owens wrote about you back in 2012 saying one to watch.

B (24:13)

It was a lot of networking. I also did Kiff spay early on. Oh yeah. And that was incredible. My first kiss, Bay. When was that? Many, many years ago.

A (24:29)

I think it was like 2012. I think it was the same time.

B (24:32)

Right. Thank you. Good research.

A (24:33)

Yes. Yeah.

B (24:35)

And so then that's where Peggy Myra Russell saw my room and then I think the year after she put me on the ones to watch NAD back in the day. That was, was and that was so Kips Bay has been incredibly helpful for my career in many the whole all of it. So that happened the first time I

A (24:55)

go ahead and make Jim Druckson so happy now.

B (24:57)

Go, go, go say oh my God,

A (24:59)

I wouldn't be here today without Kip's Bay.

B (25:02)

And then the next room I did, I, I met Amy and that's when she, I literally met her in my room. So it's been incredible. It's really has helped but not only the industry, it helps me build a portfolio. It helped me build a brand. You also have to figure out who you are aesthetically, which is a huge thing when you first start. Of course I had no idea who I was aesthetically and my projects were all over the board.

A (25:34)

Well that's what I'm so curious about. Like how were you articulating who you were and what your aesthetic was? And yes, this whole notion of how having a brand, I mean who's got a brand in their pocket, they just whip out and go, here I am.

B (25:47)

You don't. You figure it out and it comes together like a good stew. It stirs and sits there for a long time.

A (25:58)

Hopefully at a low heat, but a high enough heat that it gets going

B (26:02)

so it's not made overnight. And it comes together over trial and error. And that's what Kips Bay Show Hosta gives you opportunity to do. It frees you you from a client to even work out all your ideas more succinctly in a room which doesn't happen anywhere else beside your own home. And when you're first starting out, you are not making that much money. So you're not going to be able to do, like, a football and cut renovation. So Kiss Bay provides that opportunity to help build your brand, help build your. Your career and your style. Everything. It's. It was a great opportunity. And it also tell you how to actually beg, borrow, and plead with the design industry.

A (26:49)

Right.

B (26:50)

Right. I mean, I remember those for that first Kiss fam. Like, oh, my God. Like, I have to, like, it's like, I have to do this. This is. This is what I'm doing. So I called up showrooms, and I'm like, Aaron. And then following up with an email, and I was like, oh, my God, these showrooms are going to let me. Oh, my God. So I. That. That was incredible. But you have to put yourself in situations to grow. And it. It paid off. And. And now we buy from these vendors, and now we have a great rel. You know, even better relationship with them, which is fantastic. And you be. You insert yourself into the design community.

A (27:29)

Well, and it. And it's why I always try and encourage vendors to, yes, go ahead, be generous. Lend your stuff to this upcoming designer.

B (27:38)

Absolutely.

A (27:39)

Who's doing Kips Bay.

B (27:40)

Because. Right.

A (27:41)

Because one day he's going to be a big client of yours and be grateful that you helped him in the early days. Right. I'm always shocked when I hear stories of, oh, they wouldn't lend me this or they wouldn't give me 12 yards of that.

B (27:55)

And I'm thinking, and the exposure, too. Exposure's everything.

A (28:00)

Huge lesson in all of that. So great that the show houses helped, and then the firm grew and grew. So fast forward, Covid comes and your firm gets bigger and bigger and you get wildly busy. And I take it from our earlier conversations that maybe you didn't love the

B (28:20)

firm getting that big.

A (28:22)

Tell me in your words how you felt about that.

B (28:24)

I would say that's safe to say. You go to school for being a creative, and all of a sudden you find yourself with a large amice. And it was also during COVID So it was a lot, I must say. And you're also, obviously, you know, you can look back at it and be like, oh, that sounds obvious. And it is obvious. But when you're in it, you're kind of just obviously dealing with it all. You're. When you first start your office, you're obviously taking. Not obviously, but you're trying to take as much as possible. And you also feel honored to get a job. And.

A (28:58)

Sure.

B (28:59)

And, you know, the pendulum is just shifts where you can't take everything or you get to the point if you realize when you try to take everything, it's too much or, you know, everyone has their limit. And there's definitely people that. And designers and creatives that have huge companies and my hats go off to them. And I. I appreciate that and love that. But for me personally, I think everyone has their own ideal. I realized during all of that this was too much. I do not want to deal with more back of office things. I wanted to be in it. I wanted to talk about the wealth size. Back to the wealth size. I'm really fascinated by this, but I wanted those details and I wanted to ponder them and I wanted to have time to ponder them and not have to look at, you know, this spreadsheet and that spreadsheet instead. So that's what I want. That's how I wanted my life to go. So I. We purposely scaled back. So since COVID we've taken on less work, which has been great, and it really allows me to get more into the projects.

A (30:10)

And what did you have to do when you say you scaled back?

B (30:13)

Well, luckily that worked well with economy. So we blew up with during COVID for one week. I thought, oh, no, no, this is going to be awful. But literally by Friday of that week, it was like, oh, no, it's the opposite. We are so busy. Every client literally called and I. My. It was the wildest week of my life of, like, my clients were even calling me that week, being like. And every time, like, I saw my voice or my cell phone ring, I'm like, oh, my God, we're gonna lose a project. And they would call like, we just bought a townhouse. I'm like, oh, my God. So it was just like, it was the opposite. Like, our was ringing off the hook. Everyone was moving or renting or doing something, and they were great projects, and it was hard to say no to all of it. And we took it on and we got through it and we did it and. And since then, we just, you know, I think there's been less work coming in. But I also been more picky and more selective. I should say say, I guess we've just been more selective of what projects that are right for us and what projects are perhaps just too small. And that's how we got to where we are today.

A (31:32)

Well, and so did you have to let everyone in the firm know, listen, kids, we're gonna, we're gonna downsize or we're just gonna start taking fewer projects, or did people sort of. Some people Leave on their own. And you just didn't fill those positions.

B (31:43)

How did it. Yeah, it was a case of a lot of just not filling positions and just downsizing naturally. And that's why it definitely did not happen overnight. It was a very slow process.

A (31:56)

Okay. So people would leave and you just wouldn't fill those positions. Because I'm always curious, when people say, oh, we went from 15 to five people, what did that mean? Had to change in terms of how the firm worked and people's workloads. Your own workload, perhaps? I mean, how all of that happened?

B (32:13)

Yeah, it was a slow transition. Very slow. Over several years. And you also learn, or at least I did. Things have also. This also is happening over. The technology has shifted where back when I first started school, you would. Or in my career, you would have sets of drawings and there would be so much time into each presentation. That still happens, of course, but not to the extent, at least from my side or from my. How we work. So things have just changed as well with technology to make that. That happen. You know, instead of having, you know, a team collect tons of things for you to find, I'll just find it. So, like, there is just. I just shifted the. The needle and the perspective of how to really get this done. And, you know, I love shopping. I love finding those things. For me, if the client starts, if we need something, I'll start finding it. And it comes really naturally and easy, and I love that. So for me to outsource that, yes, there's definitely designers in our office that can help, insist or assist and fill in and do that, but that is mostly coming from me, so. And I really wanted to enjoy my job, so I really took those elements I really love and want to do and did those and all the elements I didn't want to do. We have other people working on it or outsourcing. I think that's really key when you own your business of understanding what are your favorite things to do, do and do those well.

A (33:53)

And. And that's often easier to. To say than to. Than to actually put into practice. Right. Because I think when the firm gets busy, you start to see so much of what you love doing slipping away.

B (34:03)

Because. No, it's. Yeah, it's very hard to do. And it took me many years to figure that. I'm still learning. By no means I'm an expert, but yeah, it's. That's kind of how we got where we are today.

A (34:16)

Which is a much smaller firm than you were a few years back.

B (34:20)

I mean, correct.

A (34:21)

Have you gotten to the magic five number?

B (34:23)

We are five. You are five. Yes.

A (34:25)

Okay.

B (34:25)

See that? We are five. Magic five.

A (34:27)

The magic five. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but one of the things I'm wondering about Neil. And we've been having a lot of conversations recently with a lot of the industry advisors who work with. Right. With a lot of the AD100 designers, Seth Kaplowitz, and we just had Sean Lowe on the show. He was talking about Vicente Wolf's big fee that he charges before he does anything. And I'm wondering where have you landed in all of that? How do you think about what works for you and your clientele with billing?

B (35:07)

Where have we landed? Things shift in terms of. We used to have a lot of architectural related projects in our office. Now we have more decorating projects. So we're not doing as much of the growth the interior architecture. So your fees and your structure have to shift or won't work and have found. But we, we definitely work on kind of a mixed bag, which I think I'm hearing from a lot of designers where it's hourly and a fee, percentage fee. And I think that works well with clients because they understand that, you know, it's our time is important, but also, you know, it's the time to cover the purchasing. We also approach fees and cost of projects up front. At the very beginning. It's one of the first conversations. Obviously what we do in this business is a lot about money. It takes a lot of money. No matter what budget, no matter how many thousands or millions or billions of dollars you're spending, there's always a budget. It. And how are we going to resource that and how are we going to talk about that? And if a client is nervous or is hesitant to talk about money, it's a red flag. There has to be something about composition because there. Because as I keep saying, there is always a budget. Even from my own clients, I know who would do that and who would not do that. So like in terms of where to spend things so you get to know them. And so that conversation about money is really important for. Right.

A (36:48)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about resource. When clients need to make the most of their space, Resource Furniture has the solution. Their Italian crafted transforming furniture turns one room into many. Think wall beds that disappear, dining tables that expand and desks that fold away when the workday is done. Their showrooms offer hands on experience with these systems and their trade program provides special pricing and dedicated support, including 3D renderings on site measurements and white glove installation. Follow resource on Instagram @resourcefurniture to discover the possibilities. And now back to the show. What I'm curious about with the. With the charging structure, and I wonder, I mean, first of all, listen, it sounds like one client might be different from another and how they think about money and what. Right. And what they need to know. And some clients want to know everything you're spending every minute of the day. And other clients seem like they're more comfortable getting some monthly bill and saying, sure, yeah, we moved forward with the project and we bought, you know, know, $100,000 worth of stuff.

B (38:03)

Correct. Yeah.

A (38:04)

So what I'm. What I'm wondering about for. For you, did you have to figure out how to get comfortable with your own worth and what you knew your work was worth and then how to present that to. To clients?

B (38:23)

Oh, absolutely. I mean, definitely. I mean, just like figuring out your own design aesthetic or your brand or, you know, you have to develop your confidence. Confidence related to your own worth, your own value. Meaning you still, yes, you're a creative, but you still need, you know, to make money to live and support your team. Right. So, like, that is super critical and not being afraid to talk about that and very, very plain, common language. And I think, you know, clients appreciate that. Of course, they appreciate being valued. And putting in that terms, I think goes a long way.

A (39:10)

I wonder. Part of, part of what I'm curious about is so many designers say to me, listen, Dennis, you've got to remember, this is a service business. We're here, right, to serve the client. And, and how do you walk that line of you're in a service business? One designer always used to say to me, dennis, I'm going in the back door.

B (39:33)

Okay?

A (39:33)

I'm going in the service entrance. And I just have to get over that. And I just have to deal with it. And I just have to remind myself that, yes, this is a service business, but at the same time, having the confidence, as you were just suggesting, to say, listen, by the way, I don't know if you've noticed this firm that I have here, but we have a certain amount of overhead, and this is how much money I charge to pay for the firm that I have and be able to do the work that I do. And that. That Sag Harbor House doesn't come for free, too. And I've got a baby now, for heaven's sakes.

B (40:03)

I mean, right?

A (40:04)

So.

B (40:05)

So, I mean, that won't. That would not work. I would not advise saying, do you

A (40:10)

bring Chloe into it? Do you say listen, you probably.

B (40:13)

No, no, no.

A (40:14)

But, but how do you, how do you walk that line of acknowledging, listen, I'm working for you, I get it, I'm in service of you. But also. So here are some things that I

B (40:24)

need and it looks like this correct, Definitely. I think, you know, a listening to your clients, what they're, what they're bringing up, whether it's a frustration or a topic or something's more expensive, it's that listening and being open to that is step is step number one. Clients like to be heard, heard. Human, humans like to be heard. I have found people in general, yes,

A (40:52)

they like to be heard.

B (40:53)

Giving them the platform to be heard on that and then address that and then you can go back to them whether it's. There is a lot of time on this. And then you're like, oh yeah, well let's talk about that. I'll show you like actually in more detail what we all did. From my experience and with clients, I think time is super valuable and they understand that, that. And I also think there's a better understanding of what things cost. Whereas many years ago, a few years, you know, maybe even a few years ago, people were not well informed and they needed that full budget to be understanding of where things are or you know, and also so I think people are, our clients are more aware of like oh, a side table actually caused this. And it's also, I think it's. Having said that, I also think it's just where we are as a studio and we have more repeat clients and we have. Where clients have. It's not their first rodeo and they've done other homes and, and so it's a well informed client. So they know like what an average side table costs and such. So there's that. That's layered into all of this to, to, you know, with my responses and such. I think back when I first started, my response would be totally different. We. Where you had to do a budget and show everything and go through it all and how are we going to skimp here and put it here? So it just, it changes not only with time but obviously with your career and where you are in it and

A (42:25)

are boundaries more challenging today? Do people have a greater expectation of you being available to them?

B (42:32)

Oh yeah. They expect me.

A (42:36)

Oh yeah.

B (42:37)

Oh yeah. I mean. Mean. Yeah. We live in a world of texting and if you don't answer your text or then there's email, then there's phone, there's. Yeah. You should be available. You should be. You are. You are available to your clients into. Into your vendors and to all the people you work with. So that is very important. Are there boundaries that are different than 16 years ago? Yes, very much so. But you're also involved in their home, and sometimes you have to kind of, you know, understand that I. How I perceive it or understand it. And definitely, like, I think it does cross a line at certain point and be like, okay, let's respect their weekend and all of that, and you can. You can subtly add that in and layer that in and learn. Let's not text right back. Let's text Monday morning. Yeah, let's have it all crafted.

A (43:42)

Right. Let's be ready to go.

B (43:44)

Let's be ready to go. But set those boundaries.

A (43:47)

But it's a lot different than it was when you were first starting.

B (43:50)

Definitely, definitely. And. And to be really transparent, I think also I realized that during COVID when we got really busy, you know, I used to just. I was a single man, and I worked all the time, and I'm like, what am I doing? And what am I doing? And having Covid. And then you're really not around anyone. You're like, oh, my God, this has got to change. So I really had a moment, an aha moment of we need to shift this dynamic. I need to figure out what I want to do. And what I wanted to do is have, you know, I love what I do in design, but I also wanted to be with someone special and build a family, and I put that on my mood board, and I made that happen. So, yeah, it's been a huge, dynamic shift for me. And I, you know, got married. I. We had our first child a few weeks ago, and it's phenomenal. I highly recommend it. And it's made work even better. It's made those decisions that you kind of labored over. It just feel it kind of puts a bigger spin and angle on everything where you can really not stress as much as. As over the small things and see bigger picture. And I think that's been really incredible. Really incredible.

A (45:11)

Baby. Chloe is helping to put things in

B (45:13)

perspective, changing my life.

A (45:17)

Well, and, and listen, and, and, and. And your marriage changed your life in huge ways. And it sounds like you guys also have of a working partnership.

B (45:27)

We do. Yes.

A (45:28)

Yes. And so tell me about that.

B (45:31)

Yes. Paulo runs our gallery, Antigua Galleria, which is up and running, and we're very excited about it. It's something I've always wanted to do. He comes from the world of finance. And banking. So I convinced him to come to this side of the world. And all of that great knowledge of finance and banking is paying off because now it helps on both our gallery and our studio. So we're a perfect team over here and loving getting this all launched, which is great.

A (46:06)

And, and what do you want the shop to. To be? What do you want it to grow into? What do you. How are you thinking about it?

B (46:14)

The shop is definitely starting off as all the collections I've had over the years. Just all the. Some of my favorite pieces. I love shopping. Let's just get right to it.

A (46:27)

Have we made that clear?

B (46:28)

Neil? I think you should enjoy shopping. You should enjoy shopping if you're an interior designer. If not, I don't know how that would work. I would love to meet interior designer. You don't like shopping, but I love finding things. I love the hunt of shopping. And I found myself with a lot of things somewhere else. And I was like, I always love the idea of having a shop someday and it's always on my mind. And we finally found a spot in Brooklyn to really make that happen, which is close to our apartment there. And having that become a selection of our brand and our identity. And it's another amazing way to grow professionally in terms of not only on the business side, but even on the aesthetic side. It's that, that it's creating your own personal laboratory other than your home to really experiment with design and scale and juxtapositions and color. I was always kind of doing it in our office. We'd have like a little, you know, you'd start with a seating area, but all of a sudden the whole office is filled with accessories and. And so it just became natural that the next step was to have a gallery. Definitely layering in some custom furniture that I'm working on. We have big plans. Think one of my.

A (47:53)

Well, that's what I was wondering.

B (47:55)

One of my strong students is having a lot of ideas and then just being like, how am I going to do all this? So like, then you realize, yeah, all those ideas are like a five year plan. So yeah, we want to layer in custom furniture line. We want to create a lifestyle. We candles everything, a whole brand. We're also working on a collection for CB2 that's coming out next year. So that will be our collection that we're working with them on. But we're doing an own collection for ourselves in our own gallery as well.

A (48:29)

So is this sort of a high, low kind of thing? Your gallery will have the custom Furniture option. And then CB2 will be the. The more entry level versions.

B (48:39)

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

A (48:41)

Look at you leaning into a whole brand and lifestyle and. Wow. So. So it sounds like the. The whole infrastructure is being created to build this out. And a book. Are you and Jill Cohen in talks and making things happen there or do we need to.

B (48:59)

A book that's been on my mind for many years. I'm finally. Maybe it's my own very critical eye, but I'm finally in a position where I feel like we should get one going. So I've been in talks with a few people, but it's by a few years out yet. I know they're a long lead time. Sure.

A (49:20)

They take a while.

B (49:21)

I kind of, you know, I don't know. I want to do what something that's much more. I've had projects I've been working on. I want to make sure those are in it. And there's a few things else we're doing and I just kind of figured I need to figure out what is the right time. I think it's soon, though. I think it's soon.

A (49:39)

And what's your sense of. I know you mentioned, you know, coming out of COVID business slowed down at some point and that helped to sort of restructure and resize the. The firm. What's your sense of. Of where things are at now? I mean, it's a. It's kind of a crazy time in the world at the moment. But I mean, business wise, it sounds like things picked up again for you.

B (50:04)

Business wise, 2025 was a slow year. Very slow year, at least for us. I've heard, you know, many different things from many different designers. But for, for us, it was a year of waiting or of holding even for some of our current clients. It was a hard. It was. It was hard to sell things, it was hard to pitch things. People were nervous and rightfully so. And there was a lot of terrorists and not terrorists and potential terrorists and no more terrorists. So. And I think, at least for me, I feel like there was. That changed only a few months ago. And people have either. I don't know what it. What happened, but I feel either it's just a timing thing and people are just tired of waiting and they've realized they're just going to do their home anyway or move anyway. But in the last few months we have gotten a lot of calls, a lot of calls and we got a several new projects. So it shifted dramatically and. Which is a great thing. Definitely. It also was the beginning of the year. And there's always calls at the beginning of the year, even on major holidays. It's. It's those times I equate it to. I'm sure the spouses are talking and sitting down in their home together. Finally, honey, we have not purchased that house yet. We're going to call this designer and get this going. So there's a lot of that that happens, you see. I see it a lot. It happens on July 4th for us, on after Labor Day. You know, it's like, there's shifts in everyone's life. There are milestones and like, oh, no, no, the kids are back to school. We still haven't started this. So people get on it during those major moments. And this new year was a major shift, at least from what I witnessed. And there's a lot of phone calls still today. It's. A lot is happening feel issues a year. People are doing things at least reaching out to us, which is incredible. Yeah, yeah.

A (52:04)

No, that's. That's great to hear. And to your point, I mean, one does wonder how long can people wait to make those big, big choices or life decisions that they need to, to make? It just seems like people have been putting it off for a long time.

B (52:17)

Right?

A (52:18)

Yeah.

B (52:18)

But in the scheme of things, it's. These are big projects and once in a lifetime moves and. Yeah, you know, I. It's still. I mean, our look. You get a lot of calls or emails where people are like, oh, I remember seeing this in. In a magazine. And I'm following, finally, call calling. It has a huge shelf life, much longer than I think it does. It's pretty incredible. People see you or your work, I should say, and they're not ready to move for several years. And so then when they're ready, they are ready to go, which is great.

A (52:58)

It's interesting that you say that because for all the talk about the rise of Instagram and Pinterest and even the rise of AI of late, I'm struck by how many designers I talk to that still tell me the story of. I ripped the page out from Architectural Digest or wherever and held onto it in some file and. Right. For all the advancements in technology, I still feel like people are sitting with some image that they saw. Right.

B (53:24)

Definitely. Definitely. It's a lot more. I saved your project to my Pinterest board, and then I realized you or projects were 50% on the picture on the Pinterest board. That happens a lot. Yes. Like, then you should really trust your Pinterest board and hire us. Right. There's a theme there. Like, I mean, so even I hear what also shocks me. It makes me laugh a little, too. It's like, there's a lot of, I pinned this and they didn't know who we were and, or the fact that they pinned 50% of our work. And I, when we meet and I see their board and like, well, that's. We did that. And then you're like, oh, this is a match and this is what we do. So this is. There's a lot of that and it does take a while. And homes even more so, you know, the people are putting more into their home. Homes are more than just where they eat and sleep. It's where they work out in their wellness center. It's like, so homes are even taking more important. So, yeah, I, I don't foresee that ever just changing or it's going to become faster. I mean, back to your point, though, maybe AI will make certain things faster for sure. But creating a home, it's a craft. It takes time.

A (54:36)

Neil, it is, it is such a pleasure to get to speak with you and I, and I thank you for your time and I'm glad that I could catch you in Miami. Hopefully you'll get out of there eventually. Hopefully.

B (54:46)

Definitely. Definitely. It was a pleasure speaking with you, Dennis. Always a joy. I'm a huge fan.

A (54:55)

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast@businessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.