← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
Rodman Primack and Rudy Weissenberg want to turn clients into collectors
00:54:25
The couple behind Ago Interiors and collectible design gallery Ago Projects share their story
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- [00:04]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm your host Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guests this week are Rodman Premack and Rudy Weisenberg, the couple behind the firm Augo Interiors and Collectible Design Gallery. Ago projects the business started with Rodman, whose career has jumped between art and design, including stints working for Christie's, Gagosian and Peter Marino, not to mention his own AD100 firm. Rudy, whose background is in finance and TV, joined the business more recently. Together they do a little of everything from high profile design projects to collaborating with artists and artisans on bespoke pieces for their Mexico City gallery. I spoke with Rodman and Rudy about the rise of collectible design, why online discourse about design is so frustrating, and why their work isn't for everyone. And that's just fine. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta at Ernesta. Great design starts from the ground up. Created to make finding the right custom size rug easier, their thoughtfully curated materials and styles reach your door in as little as two weeks. From their new coastal collection to rugs made with families in mind, Ernesta has everything you need. And through Ernesta's trade program, you'll also gain the necessary tools and support to move your project forward with confidence. Become a member today@ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh this podcast is sponsored by Kohler. Kohler has always embraced the belief that design is more than a cent aesthetics, it's a powerful force to shape experiences. Kohler Smart toilets are proof of the power of design and its ability to elevate how we live and feel. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet with its sculptural curved silhouette is like nothing you might imagine when picturing a toilet. And that's the point. Transform a bathroom into something extraordinary. Discover Vail and all Kohler smart toilets@kohler.com and now on with the show, I want to tell people a little bit about both of your backgrounds so they understand the context of all of this. And I wonder, should we tell people the meat cute story of the early days of the two of you? What do you think Rodman?
- [02:52]
B
Let's go for it. So Rudy and I met at a Christmas party in New York City, and I think that a lot of people will remember that feeling when you first come to the city and everything you think about New York has been kind of mediated or predicated by having watched too many movies about New York City as a child. So every Time you go to something, you think it's going to be like a movie. And I remember distinctly thinking I was basically going to, like, a New Yorker Christmas cocktail. Like, I was positive that it was going to be filled with, you know, writers and artists.
- [03:25]
A
It was going to be a gathering of the Algonquin Roundtable. Exactly.
- [03:28]
B
Seriously, like, I thought that I was going to be sitting next to, you know, I don't know, PJ o' Rourke was going to gale me about, you know, a recent adventure. Anyway, it was not that, of course. It was just like a normal Christmas party. And I met Rudy as I was walking in, and he was leaving the party, and luckily for me, he came back to the party and started talking to me. And the reality is that we really saw each other again for three more nights and for the next 28 years. So it literally was one of those unusual meetings that we basically have been together since the day that we met.
- [04:08]
A
And. And Rudy, what. What were you doing at the. At the time when you guys first met?
- [04:13]
C
I was a commodities trader. A very junior commodities trader. It was my first job and just, you know, also really taking it all in in the city. Like, part of the reason of moving to New York City was because it was this enormous metropolis of our imagination. Growing up in Guatemala City, it was like the. The city that inspired me the most.
- [04:32]
B
And I have to say, I. You know, I grew up in. In Idaho. My family's from Los Angeles, but I grew up in Idaho and all, and, like, a little ski resort in the mountains. That was incredible. All I could think about, I think every morning that I woke up, was how I was one day closer to moving to New York. And I hated Los Angeles as a child. Like, I thought Los Angeles was so, like, not a real city. New York is the. The real city. And, you know, like, at a certain point, Rudy and I moved to Los Angeles from New York. And I would come back to New York a lot for work. I worked for Larry Gagosian at the time. And I would come back to New York and I'd, like, go to a cocktail party, and people would grab me by the elbows and look at me, like, really sadly and, like, as though I had cancer. And would look at me and be like, are you okay? Like, as though living in Los Angeles was this terrible curse because you were living in la. In la, it was like a Woody Allen movie. Like, they would just be like, oh,
- [05:29]
A
how are you, the poor thing?
- [05:31]
B
Oh, how are you standing?
- [05:33]
A
All that sunshine day after day? How do you endure?
- [05:36]
B
And I have to admit, the moment we moved to Los Angeles, I was like, wait, what have I been missing? This is the most amazing, fantastic city. It's so great. And at that moment in the early 2000s, LA was so amazing. It was filled with artists and designers and architects. Like, it just was like a great city. Like it is.
- [05:54]
C
It's always been amazing.
- [05:55]
B
It's always been, it's a great city,
- [05:56]
C
it's a fantastic city. We're constantly thinking about how can we move and be in 10 places at the same time. And I think if it were up to Rodman, there would be three Rodmans running around. I have a very different pace. I like to be slower in movement.
- [06:14]
A
Well, I love the push pull of that dynamic. And tell me, so you meet, you get together and then how does it become a. A professional relationship? Tell me how that evolved.
- [06:27]
C
It took a. It took quite a long time. My career took. Was different. I went to business school, then I worked in television. I had a career in television for 14, 15 years. I went home for a couple years to Guatemala and then I went back to school to get a degree, a master's in art in public space, which included a conversation about design and architecture. And I had already started curating design.
- [06:52]
B
I think in my mind, I've been in the art and design space since I was a little kid because I only, you know, my first drawings, the first things that I could, like, do with intention. I started drawing floor plans and I would get hired sometimes, like my sister and her friends would not let me play directly with their Barbies, but I could be Barbies decorator and architect. So. And I would get commissions to do that. So I. I started really young and I really knew from, you know, I think I basically came out of the womb, sort of talking about Mario Botta and Mark Hampton at the time I had it. I remember that in the third grade, my big Christmas present was an annual subscription to Architectural Die Cut page rents of Architectural Diagnostics. And I love that magazine and would, you know, pour over it, you know, coming home from school and like all the time.
- [07:50]
C
And for me, I grew up with an architect uncle that was super talented. My grandfather had a sawmill in Guatemala and he did a lot of homes. My viewpoint was more macro. It wasn't so much about just interiors, but I've always been fascinated by the construction process and thinking about possibilities. But I was always fascinated by a museum or a gallery or whatnot. Always looking at details, always looking at how it works, always trying to think about the intentionality of things.
- [08:22]
A
Yeah. And I want to have that discussion, but let's first explain for everyone listening who might not be familiar, the different operations that the two of you run together on the interior side and the project side and the gallery and all of that. So. And let's talk about how that came to be before we get too much deeper into it.
- [08:49]
C
We have a collectible design gallery in Mexico City, based in Mexico, Mexico City, called AGO Projects. And Raman and I decided we wanted to embark on this adventure in 2019. I have been doing curation of collectible design and Rahman was the director of Design Miami. And we thought, why don't we just try to do this? And instead of kind of following certain trends, we wanted to really start a new conversation. And we thought because I'm Latin American, because I had worked a lot in the region, we wanted to come here and kind of create a landscape language of contemporary Latin American collectible design. And that's what we've been doing since. So we work with a lot of artists, designers, architects, working together to launch collections of collectible design.
- [09:39]
B
Then on the other side, I worked for Peter Marino at a certain early stage of my career. Very luckily it was such an inform, like such a foundational and wonderful experience. And you know, I went back and forth between the worlds of, of the auction world at Christie's and I at a Phillips. And at a certain point when we lived in Los Angeles, a number of people saw our house in LA and started asking me if I would decorate for them. And I was so excited to be given that opportunity. And I had this firm, this kind of decorating practice alongside doing other jobs, alongside being the chairman of Philips, the auction house based in London. At the time I was working with Tom Kundig, you know, doing a house in Hawaii from London. So it was like this passion project to do interiors, but always alongside other kind of art world based jobs. And at a certain point I realized I really wanted to double down in interiors and I really started to focus on that. And then when we moved to Mexico and I left Design Miami and realized that we're going to. Moody and I were going to work together on this, I was so excited to be able to really focus on bringing those practices together.
- [10:58]
C
The interiors part of working together was almost an accident. We got a project in Mexico, a very large beautiful home, during Pandemic and they asked us to do it really quickly and with a lot of handmade and bespoke and collectible. And I just kind of fell into working with Rodman because Our brains work really differently. And so Rodman kind of took a cre creative for all. And I was more like project managing and making sure things got done. And so rather was kind of like doing the inspiration and whatnot. And I was driving the making and making sure we could deliver something because it was so challenging. You know, I don't know if you
- [11:38]
B
remember, people can't see my smile. People can't see my smile and sort of the redness coming into my face, which is like Rudy's very subtle way of saying that he, he observed my practice and, and, and a need to collaborate.
- [11:55]
A
He found ways to, to, to improve some things. It sounds like Pandemic changed in the nicest way.
- [12:01]
C
The Pandemic changed everything, right?
- [12:03]
A
Yes.
- [12:03]
C
It was so complicated to do and get anything. And, and I come from, you know, I worked in television, I did production and I ran many productions at the same timing is very obvious to me.
- [12:15]
A
Well, and tell us a little bit more, Rudy, about what you did in television, because so much of what you did came to inform how you come at the world and think about things.
- [12:27]
C
Well, during business school, I did something most people went to do, consulting and banking. And I did films. I went and shot two little films. And I realized that it was an intuitive process. I got hired because of business school to do finance at a, at the time the fastest growing media company in the US it's called Univision. It's Spanish language content. And I started doing mergers and acquisitions. But slowly they realized that both sides of my brain worked and I got on this project to do a soap opera.
- [12:59]
B
They realized you had some flair, let's be honest.
- [13:03]
C
Well, that and then my life is a soap opera. You know, I produced and worked on soap operas for over a decade and rather used to find them over the top and ridiculous. The Latin American soap operas just overacted. But once Ronald met my family, came for dinner, he realized like, oh, no, it's not fiction.
- [13:23]
A
Wait, these are real people.
- [13:25]
C
We bring the drama, at least in my family.
- [13:29]
A
But you learned a great deal from that.
- [13:31]
C
Yeah. And I worked in production for many, many years. And I think what helped me was that I did have that because I'm a double Virgo, which, you know, it's not easy for anyone around me. I believe in deadlines, and that's. Those deadlines are very clear to me. And that's where I bring projects down to earth. And I'm like, you know, this needs to get done. I think it also helps with trying to understand family dynamics, like things seem to be one way. And then you get deeper into a relationship with clients, and you realize, like, oh, the dynamic is different and what they want is different.
- [14:05]
A
Yes, I completely agree. And it seems to me that often your job is breaking down that initial facade that they try to create. For some reason, people want to show you some idyllic version of themselves at first, and then you have to sort of pierce that shell somehow to really get to. No, no, no. What do you really need from me? In part, because you have to show them. I can give you what you really need, but you've got to tell me.
- [14:32]
B
You've got to be honest. You've got to be honest. And sometimes it's like you've got to be honest with each other as a couple. And we're. Our job is to kind of help you get there without getting divorced along the way. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of people that are listening to this know this, that it. To build a house or remodel an apartment or decorate. Like, I think it's a very challenging thing to do as a couple, as an individual, but particularly as a couple.
- [14:57]
C
And I would say Ralman also is getting more expensive to do so. So I think that the financial pressure of doing this, as you see construction costs and shipping costs and whatnot, doing projects now, is such a financial commitment that the stress level goes up even further. Right. Like, a mistake can be very costly.
- [15:18]
A
Rodman, take me back to the early days of your career and this iconic designer that you worked for at such a young age. And I wonder how that formed your thinking and sensibility and what you took away from that.
- [15:36]
B
Oh, that's such a nice question. I had this really lucky circumstance that I was hired by Peter Marino away from Christie's, and it was incredible. And so much of my perspective and the work I do is based on having been in Peter's office and based on the fact that Peter was so focused on building collections with. With collectors and with clients and not just decorating. And, you know, at the time, I got to work on my fate. Like, one of my favorite things to do was that I was given the responsibility of kind of maintenance and upkeep at the Agnelli's apartment. And I would have these, like, monthly meetings with their housekeeper. So I'd be able, you know, to walk over and spend time in this.
- [16:24]
C
How fantastic.
- [16:25]
B
I mean, it was amazing. It was, like, the best thing in the world. And. And I just. I had always been in love with. With art and objects and furniture, but I don't. Even after having been at Christie's for a little bit, I don't think I had understood the power of collecting and the way that you.
- [16:45]
C
Not just collecting, but I would say rather than commissioning. Right. Like, that's the amazing thing about Peter.
- [16:50]
B
Yeah. And also make it, you know, like really like looking at something and being able to look at Peter and say, oh, I met Michelle Okodono the other night at a cocktail party. She's amazing. I went down to her loft downtown and she showed me these things and we got inspired and thought that we should make door handles. What do you think, Peter? Oh, that's an amazing idea. Let's, let's talk to Michelle Okadonor to make door handles. And like that process, that, that ability, the willingness and the desire to say again, like, oh, we're doing something so special for these people. Let's do something really special. Let's take it the next step.
- [17:26]
C
He has such as an expansive mind. I've been very lucky that I've visited a lot of projects and through Rodman, I've met him many times and I've learned of his process. He's a market maker, if that makes any sense. I mean, so many people that.
- [17:40]
A
Tell me, tell me what you mean.
- [17:41]
C
Yeah, I mean like he was working with the lalanne's, you know, Rodman. When Rodman was working on a project, I came to Visit and the LaLannes were on this step. Ladders, hanging lamps and you know, where people were not looking at the LaLanne at the time.
- [17:54]
B
I mean, Peter really resurrected that market and was really buying and commissioning them in a time when people were disinterested. I would also say, Dennis, that the other thing that Peter made me really see and get excited about is kind of how you could build this library of textiles and found objects and just wait until the right moment. There was this kind of closet very near my desk that was filled with vintage and antique textiles that were just kind of stacked and waiting for, for usage somewhere. And that, that kind of thinking about not having to have something immediate. But like, you know, you. When you find something really, really beautiful and just know that it's beautiful, you just, you need to have it and have it wait for the right place and the right client. But it just was like this very mind opening thing to be there and realize that, that this could also be kind of an artistic practice in a way and not just like, oh, I've got to check this box, and I've got to check this box and we've got to make sure here there was so much artistry and as Rudy was saying, commissioning from artists, but also craftspeople and, you know, embroiderers and, you know, like, making curtains with Lesage or this person or that person. And like, you were on a trip and you found that. That kind of like what Rudy and I call now, squirreling. Like, we're squirrels and we're in these cities and we're, like, digging and finding things like that really became clear to me about the magic of Peter. You know, there's only so much capital in any project. And I think Rudy and I both look at it and think, like, okay, it's so exciting that we can take some of this capital and use it in someone else's practice, that their practice can advance because we have the opportunity of doing this. Like, we could go buy something, we could find something, we could place it there and spend that X amount of money. But if we take that X amount of money and take it into someone's studio and allow them to do something that they haven't done before or do something at a scale or like, that is so great. And that is such a win for the client, that's such a win for the maker, that's such a win for us. And so understanding that and being able to put that into practice, not all the time, but in lots of moments in the project, I think we walk away and feel really good about having impacted an artist or a designer or makers, you know, their practice, but also in many cases, having created the opportunity for the client to have. Have made money down the road, which, you know, is also kind of exciting through the.
- [20:36]
A
Through the appreciation, you mean, of the collectible pieces and the things that.
- [20:40]
B
For sure, we've done it now where we've had, you know, Christie's are one of the auction houses. Come in and take a look at a collection. And we've realized that for some clients, we have really made a lot of money for, like, we've created a lot of value by collecting furniture. And it's wonderful to see it. And I think it really, like, kind of underlines this point of how kind of practical it is in the long term for many people. And if you have the means to be not just decorating, but collecting.
- [21:14]
A
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- [22:08]
B
I think that's in the early 2000s and sort of the first decade of this century and maybe just at the kind of the turn of the century that we stopped shopping so much for antiques, stopped collecting so much in the antique world, and started really focusing on 20th century design, collectible 20th century design, and contemporary collectible design. And there were these terms for it. There was, yeah, I think you'll remember. And people remember that there was like auctions that were like, called Design art Design. Like there were all these different monikers in the early 2000s that finally settled on collectible design. And it was kind of a combination really of Philips Auction House, which I was really involved with at the time, being the leader in that market and really defining that space alongside the advent of design. Miami coming out of Art Basel and people like Craig Robbins and some other collectors, recognizing that there needed to be a kind of bracketing and an understanding of what this market was going to look like, which was not the 18th century French furniture market, not an English furniture market, but it was this, this other market that was looking at modernism and even mass produced furniture that was holding value. And it established a different way and a different kind of taste. And it also, I think, comes of a shift in taste where people, the people that used to collect 18th century French were like, oh, no, no, no. Now I'm, I'm collecting. I just want, I want or perion or like, you know, it was like, that's a kind of a taste thing. And now, you know, I think it's actually pretty common that people talk about collectible design work that, that comes out of a studio practice of a designer that probably does industrial work, but is also doing studio work and sign things. So these are kind of precious, but they're not so precious that you're not able to interact with them. And I think that trying to get more people to understand how truly special it is to have something handmade and that something handmade will most likely take longer than something that's not handmade, both in the production of it and the sourcing of it, blah, blah, blah. But that, that is like the truest luxury at this moment. To actually have something that you can see the hand of the maker the time of the maker, the. Their emotional investment in the piece, like, it just is so radical and I think brings such an energy and a difference into a project. Like when you're able to bring the handmade. And there's an artist that Rudy and I have worked with in Mexico called Pedro Reyes, and his wife, Carla Fernandez, she's a fashion designer, he's an artist. And one of the things that they've said over and over again is the future is handmade. And I love that thought so much that if you're in, again, this place of privilege where you can make choice, choose the handmade, our job is to keep looking for those opportunities and keep pushing for those opportunities and hoping that clients will slow down with us long enough to. Yes, to, you know, like, let's hand loom. Let's footloom a rug that's going to take six months over, you know, something that can be fabricated like that, to me, is like the extraordinary gift of being able to do this.
- [25:48]
A
Well, I wonder, coming back to this piece in the New York Times recently about your gallery in Mexico and talking about both some of the artists there, but also the collaborative process that goes on there, I was curious because, Rudy, I'm wondering, there was a quote from you. The article focused somewhat on some drama around Mexico and artists and all of that. Right. And they were trying to just stir that pot a little bit, as people do. And I get it. But in that piece, you expressed sympathy for this particular artist. And in that, you said, you know, we've been such heavily bullied people ourselves, and we understand what that moment can feel like. And I'm curious what you're speaking to there.
- [26:41]
C
There's an American artist living in Mexico that is doing the Venice Biennial, and the process has been quite controversial. Alma Allen is someone that we work with and we represent in design, someone that Rahman and I have admired even before we started collecting his pieces, I think, 20 years ago. And it was controversial. And, you know, nowadays the social media and opinions get augmented really quickly without any measure. And what I was saying is, what I was trying to say is that Raman did and I did grow up being bullied, Right. Because of her flair and interests and where we grew up. And it was obvious, I think, from a young age for both of us that we were gay and it was different times. And we both have felt being bullied, and it's not pleasant. And, you know, this is, even again, social media. We could find, in theory, respite if you went into your bedroom and close the door. And I think that's what a lot of us did. Some of us had bouts of depression and could just stay in your little room playing decorator for Barbie or whatever. But nowadays it's much more intense because it doesn't stop. And so all I was trying to say is, when someone's down, we don't kick them in the back again. We wait. And I think pausing is very important to kind of think, let things blow over. And if you believe in someone, you've been working with someone, I think it's important to. To just understand what's. What the truth is, right, and where it lies and how you support someone and you stick with someone. And it's hard to navigate nowadays, all these very intense opinions, intense and public.
- [28:26]
B
And the ease with which people post opinions and comment.
- [28:30]
C
I always find it wild. Like, if you go, you know, like Architectural Digest, Instagram, I tend not to want to read the post. Not just me, but I think there's things that people say that are just wild. I sometimes think they do it as a provocation, like, as a joke. To be mean. Our spirit is not to be mean. And so what we do is to offer friendship and moments, to kind of gather and think, right, this is what's happening, what's real, what's not, what's your intention, what's not. And in this case, I thought it was very important to support someone that we believe in, and we believe in a lot of people.
- [29:05]
A
I'm surprised how quickly people today jump to judgment or to criticism. And the harshness with which they will bring that criticism is often striking as well.
- [29:17]
C
We prefer not to criticize our peers. For example, there's very talented peers where someone say, like, oh, that house is not so great. And I'm like, well, we don't know what happened when that peer was doing that house. And what happened with the clients and what happened with the budget and what happened with the execution, and did someone change it and what happened with the builder? I mean, there's so many things that come into play when you're doing projects that until you hear what happened, you know, sometimes we'll hear the other side from our friends, and you hear that it was a nightmare story, or that's what the client wanted, or it didn't work and they're going to change it. So a little kindness goes a long way.
- [29:51]
B
I don't mind criticism. Like, I think criticism is super healthy. I think that is part of culture. I think that's what moves things forward. But I think what ends up happening on platforms like Instagram is that people have lost civility or don't actually know how to frame criticism in a way that is critical as opposed to just being like mean, but just flat out sort of, sort of mean. And I, I say this jokingly, that sometimes when a story, one of our projects will get published, let's say by ad, and then it goes into their Instagram feed and blah blah, blah, and that's an invitation for a lot of comment. And I don't mind what I find to be like real criticism or real questions or something like that. But what, what literally burns me into like, into like a fiery mess is when someone will write something as simple as nope, N O P E. Because
- [30:46]
A
it's so totally just a flat nope.
- [30:50]
B
Just a flat nope.
- [30:51]
A
Not the whole thing. I'm just rejecting the entire thing.
- [30:54]
B
I'm rejecting like, nope. And there's something about it that I just want. I don't. But I want to say to that person, like, I don't mind that you don't like my work or you don't like this project, but have you not thought about the fact that hundreds of people dedicated time and effort and my team and blah blah, and for you to just be so dismissive and in a one word thing that you would not realize that that would be. It's not like, I'm a grown up, I can handle it. But I'm like, that's just so rude and dismissive and people say a lot worse things. But I'm like, guys don't treat each other this way. Or even with this thing about Alma, like, if you don't like Alma's work, talk to us about what you don't like about Alma's work.
- [31:34]
C
It wasn't even about his work. It was about the process of being picked. So let's just discuss that rather than dismissing the whole thing. I've been many art crits and architecture crits and I think that's super important to push back and to point out moments in a project that don't work. And my favorite art professor was Steven Prina. And he wouldn't come and say this is good or bad ever. He would just keep prodding and prodding and prodding and asking why and why did you do this? And you could tell that there was things that he thought were unresolved or not interesting or going in the wrong direction. He would never say that. He would just keep asking and going into it. And it just made for an interesting conversation to get you thinking about your own Process how you can improve. And it just made the project that much more thoughtful. And so I think crit is important, but in how it's released into the world is also important.
- [32:30]
A
Well, I found myself thinking after the last conversation that the three of us had, is it safer for people to choose the things that haven't been created by artists to fill your home with? Are you less likely to be judged harshly because the things that you'll be surrounded by will be far less specific and therefore feel more neutral and safe and like what everybody else's Instagram looks like?
- [33:06]
C
Real estate agents would tell you. Yes, right, right.
- [33:09]
A
Well, exactly. We have a whole resale culture that pushes you in that direction already.
- [33:15]
C
Correct.
- [33:15]
A
But also, I mean, to select these different artists and to have far more interesting, unique, but also risky in that context pieces is a much bigger statement to make.
- [33:31]
C
A friend of ours has an apartment in New York, or had an apartment in New York, and she's one of the great collectors, without exaggerating, in Latin America and the world, sits on many boards. She was trying to sell her apartment, and people and the real estate agents kept saying, was very specific, and that means a little maximalist. And so through AI, they painted everything white and they took out all the work and it sold. And it was shocking to her, to me, when she told me the story. But I guess, you know, nowadays, I guess you can paint the whole thing white to. To sell via AI for real estate, but for living. That texture and those colors and that uniqueness is what's going to make your space you and yours and hopefully make you happy.
- [34:17]
B
But I think Dennis is getting at something. I think Dennis is getting at something that's. That's bigger is about, like, the kind of, like, anxiety that people, that we feel about judgment. And because, like, to what I was saying earlier, because the judgment is so freely offered and oftentimes so ugly in its delivery that I do think we kind of are in this kind of censoring moment where we censor each other and we censor ourselves and we're kind of on pins and needles because of the rapidity and the ferocity at which we get taken down on these platforms. Like, people are nervous and the hyper
- [34:55]
C
competitiveness of seeing, you know, when people told you, I'm going to Italy, you never saw their pictures, most probably, but now, you know, every step they take, where they stay and, you know, sometimes it's real, sometimes it's not. I find that it's all super mediated. And so if you don't understand that, you're either jealous or judgy or whatnot. And that didn't used to happen because you didn't see people's worlds like that.
- [35:22]
A
We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesto. If there's one thing we've all experienced, it's the difficulty of finding the right rug. From awkward sizing to not quite right colors, the discovery of a rug that works in your client's space can be tricky. Or at least it used to be. With Ernesta, you get custom sized rugs delivered in as little as two weeks. And as a trade member, the unlimited samples you receive ensure that you and your clients will find just the right color and material as well. Become an Ernesta trade member today to explore the full assortment, receive dedicated one on one support, and gain access to preferred pricing. To learn more, visit ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh and now back to the show. So people are gonna hear this conversation. They're gonna say, wait a minute. So these guys, wait, oh, wait. They've been together all these years. They're finishing each other's sentences left and right, right. They're running a gallery, they're running a design firm, they're traveling all the time finding. How's the business working? How's this whole thing working? Who wants to talk to me about that? What kind of operation we running here?
- [36:46]
B
So I gotta get off this call now.
- [36:49]
A
Oh, Robin suddenly has to go now.
- [36:51]
B
Oh, it's hard. It's hard. Like, this is. It's a hard thing to keep all these balls in the air and do all these things and be committed to something that isn't. Like, I don't want to go out and say like, oh my God, we're retiring on AGO projects. Like, our collectible design gallery has bought us an island in the Caribbean. It's not like that is out of passion and love and desire.
- [37:16]
C
And finding clients is difficult. You know, placing new furniture is very difficult. And, you know, Ramen and I always go against the grain in many ways. Like, you know, we love the ugly pretty. Like sometimes people say, like, oh, that's bad taste. And I'm like, oh, my God, that's perfection. So we also have a point of view that is not the most streamlined. So it's tough. You know, we're in a region that has few design galleries. It's a new conversation that we're starting or that we are adhering ourselves to. We get invited by the big fairs and all these things, but it's really expensive. Moving furniture to design fairs and art fairs. It's very complicated and expensive. And, you know, we really support our designers making things, so we invest in these pieces.
- [38:02]
A
And yeah, it sounded like you were putting a bunch of money up to help people make things. It sounded like you. Right. You were.
- [38:08]
C
Well, you know, like I always say, I never thought we were starting a non for profit. I think we should have done a 503C.
- [38:15]
B
That's.
- [38:15]
A
That's what I'm wondering.
- [38:16]
C
We've been told that galleries take five years to get going. We're hitting that mark. Let's hope if starts working financially, you know, in interiors, they work. But we always are looking for more work. We always need more work. You know how it is. You hear it all the time.
- [38:29]
B
And I would say to Dennis's earlier point, Rudy, that, that I think our work is really distinctive in many ways. And so it's not for everybody. And so we don't get everybody's calls. Like, there's like, it's, it's a very. It's not all the same, but it's kind of a particular spirit. And so I don't think it's definitely not neutral. It's definitely not easy.
- [38:51]
A
And so Rodman, to that point, who is coming to you and how are they coming to you?
- [38:56]
B
Almost everything that comes to us in Rudi, correct me if you feel differently, comes from word of mouth and normally through, you know, a relationship with a client that we've worked with before and that leads to a new project. I don't think we've gotten a single thing from as much as I love being published and thank you. Thank you, Amy and Elisa. Like all these people love being published, but I don't think anyone's ever picked up the magazine and called us.
- [39:25]
C
Yeah, because it's harder nowadays. Right. Like it's changed. And our book has helped and given us credibility. We did our first book a year ago. We launched it with Monica.
- [39:33]
A
And do you feel like that was really worth it, Rudy, to that point, giving you credibility?
- [39:37]
C
I do, because I think it kind of sums up. It really kind of shows our work all together. You can see what we do. You know, I'm, as I said, I went to business school and I help many people put together business plans for their business and stupidly, for hours. It's harder for me.
- [39:54]
A
But so did you. Did you put a business plan? I tried this whole operation.
- [39:58]
B
Have you.
- [39:59]
C
It's very. It's much easier to do it on the cost side, which is something that I look at Where I said that, you know, we're spending too much here or there. Storage is going to be the death of us. But then it's very hard to project. You know, if I could project, three new projects come in, and this is. With the revenue that's going to come in, it's to be so much easier. And I would love to get there, but. But it's. It's getting there in the business. If we get a project, we know the scale more or less, how much we should or can make, I. I'm good at that. At the budgets. Right, right. But it's always getting those projects and executing them flawlessly that become challenging. And so the hustle is real, you know, finding clients, getting the jobs, because we now understand the business. And also there's all kinds of clients, and we don't turn in a client, we don't turn away a client. That said, I cannot do collectible design. That's fine. That means we're going to make less. Right. So that means we need another project to complement it because we have overheads. And so this is something I look at all the time and how we build teams and what does that mean? And if you bring in someone, we want to groom people to stay with us for a long time. So if you bring in someone, it's a serious decision because you're making a financial commitment. And so you start adding cost, and how is that going to be paid for? And it's, you know, it's not easy.
- [41:18]
B
But, Rudy, but I think you have to also be honest that I think part of growing a practice and growing our practice is also being able to recognize when the client is not the right client for us. And you can feel like, oh, you know, yeah, we got. We got to get more business in the door and we got to do this. And. But really getting to the maturity personally and as a business of being able to say like, and it's not necessarily personal, but just being able to say like, this is not the right client for our firm. And the way that we do things and our. What we value is not going to be valued by this client. We're going to be in a company in a battle from day one.
- [41:56]
A
And what do they do? What do they do to tip you off to that? Rodman, to that point? Like, how do they. How does that reveal itself?
- [42:02]
B
I don't think it's anything specific or like, there's a code word of, like, oh, you know, red flag. There's certain. Definitely, there are. We all probably have red flags. For each other. But it's something, there's something that you realize like, oh, we're not on the same path and we're not going to be able to. We're not going to be able to do what they want us to do or they think what we do is what they want. And actually through conversation, you realize we are totally not what they want and we're not going to do it in the way. Like we can't do that.
- [42:33]
A
Yeah.
- [42:33]
C
And if we talk about business, I think it's very important that we think about creating assets and value. Right. So if you're creating, I don't know, there's companies you can create and they can trade. So you build a company, you build it up. There's embedded revenue, let's say furniture. All of a sudden you're selling $100 million a year. Your profit is 20%. Your EBITDA is 10 million. It sells times 2.3. All of a sudden you have a valuation 50 million, you sell the business. That's great. That's a traditional business.
- [42:58]
B
Oh my God. Algo's doing amazing.
- [43:01]
A
That's incredible. Congratulations on getting the business to that scale.
- [43:04]
C
But if you think about a decorating business, if you think an interiors practice, you're not creating a value. That's an upside. You know, it's not like your stock is going to, it's not like you hold stock and it's going to go up. It's not like you deliver a house and someone looks at you and says, here's your million dollar bonus you were not expecting. You know, you have a service, it's a service industry and it's a company that has revenue through service. And I think justifying service in modern world is hard. Like some people don't believe they need to pay for service. What you think you deserve, and that is the dance you need to dance. And that's a very difficult conversation of saying, this is what you need to pay me. And if you like decorating, you're usually a people pleaser and it's hard to charge sometimes if the person pushed back. Right. And that happens all the time. But that conversation, not just for us, but our industry is, it's a service. This is how much we should get paid to pay our expenses and have a decent living. And you, the client should recognize that and you should pay does.
- [44:05]
A
And I'm so glad that you said what you did, Rudy there, because you're so right about the people pleaser part. And the people pleaser part is exactly the part that's lowering the fees and giving in in the negotiations.
- [44:17]
B
And.
- [44:17]
A
And how does one simultaneously build the strength and the confidence, but also continue to be able to call upon the people pleasing nature that's so necessary, crucial to the whole process.
- [44:33]
C
And in the negotiation, you have very different powers. One person has the money that's gonna pay for it, the other one's offering a service. So you're in a different position. But you need to understand that you state your case of, this is what I do for a living, this is what I need to get paid. And I hope that we can reach an agreement where you understand why you're paying what you're paying to get what you want.
- [44:55]
B
That is one of those red flags. If we're really talking about red flags, as I think the negotiation process sometimes really makes it clear if a client respects the work that actually goes into something. And I think that people negotiate to get the best deal, et cetera, et cetera. But there are moments where you can see a real glimmer of character and just understand, oh, this is a person that's not just trying to get the best deal. They don't respect what other people do. They don't respect what people do outside of making money or outside of doing this thing. And there are moments that you can see that.
- [45:31]
C
And because I have the business brain, I have my spreadsheets, and at some point I look at ramen, and I'm like, we're not going to make money. We're actually going to work for free. And I don't think that's fair either.
- [45:42]
B
No. And that's the wrong person, and that's the wrong client. It's like, because. Because what we're talking about doing, what we love to do, and what we're talking about doing we've been talking the last hour about, is like, you know, valuing and respecting the making. So the right client for us is someone that actually values what other people do, that values chefs, that values clothes that, you know, like, that values other people's contributions, but also values us.
- [46:08]
C
Right, Robin? Because we might present, because of the way we present that we don't need much, but this is what we do for a living, and this is where we eat from. Does that make sense? So. So.
- [46:17]
A
Well, that's a great point, Rudy, because do you think the two of you come across as so terribly successful that the clients look at you and go, oh, these guys don't really need to get paid that well, because they're doing just fine. Right. They got a gallery In Mexico and they're got this jet set life. Look at how well they're doing.
- [46:32]
B
They don't really need my jet set in 23F.
- [46:36]
C
Yeah, I don't think there's anything, I mean, if you call big airbuses, jets and jet set, that might be true. But I think people make assumptions all the time.
- [46:46]
B
Time.
- [46:46]
C
You know, we all think that how people present themselves, we all compare and think, make jumping to conclusions. But the truth is that being small business owners, it's always a struggle. And so it's about being very open about the fragility of what we do, but on the other hand, how exciting it is to what we do. And it is a great business. I mean, you know, we've been talking to even people that have been on your podcast that are consultants, and if you know how to do it right, you can have a wonderful life, you can make a living. But it's that moment when you understand who you need to work with, how much you need to charge, and when you say yes and when you say no. Because below a certain threshold, your practice is not. You're not going to make money for your practice. You're going to be struggling, and eventually you're not going to be able to continue doing what you're doing because it's just not enough.
- [47:40]
B
Right.
- [47:40]
C
Revenue. And sadly, until there's a better system that the neocapitalist system that we know today, we offer service and we get paid for it. Right. And there needs to be a fair compensation.
- [47:54]
A
A great designer said to me recently that designers are artists asking their clients to buy their art supplies for them so that they can create. It's like, please let me show you the incredible work that I can do. Invest in me, invest the time, and let me show you how my work can transform your life. But you need to get them to let you buy the things that you know can do all of that.
- [48:25]
C
I mean, I'll tell you, like, Rodman's brain, you know, I didn't know this side of it. Rodman lives in this very beautiful world full of sparkle contemporary design and unicorns. And his design solutions are so incredible. And I admire it. And sometimes I'm stuck and he'll come up with a solution. I'm like, that's just so poetic and beautiful. But money to Rahman, is an abstract. And I do see Robin as an artist. And when you see the way he draws things and designs things, he's an artist. And I think that it's hard for people to see that. Right. And that's I think our yin and yang, where I'm like, Robin just spent. Spent three days designing a tile concept for a house. Clients don't know that the ramen spent the whole weekend doing.
- [49:07]
A
And you can't bill for that property.
- [49:09]
C
No, we don't build time.
- [49:10]
A
That's true.
- [49:11]
B
We don't build that at all. That's just because I'm a crazy person. What?
- [49:16]
A
Crazy, crazy, talented, creative person. Exactly. That needs to be allowed to flourish and spend all that time doing that. And thank goodness Rudy, he has you and the other side to help help try and monetize that.
- [49:30]
C
Well, you know, we just started working together not too long ago, so we're starting to understand our formula and also how we put ourselves out in the world. And for people to understand that what we do is also like a pleasure and a treat. Like, I think we both do this because we like it. And as I said, we don't stop because we don't feel like we need to, because we enjoy it so much. You know, every weekend, I go to galleries. Robin and I go to galleries, and we go to museums, and we. I'm cruising the auction sites. But because I'm. I like it. It's a pleasure for us. And it's. You know, it's. The creative process is. Is just. It makes me feel so honored that I can be part of it. When you get to work with people you admire, when you get to sit with an artist and talk about a project, and that magic starts happening, and the client understands when that starts gelling, it's really probably some of the most beautiful things that can happen in life, because nothing. The darkness goes away, and you're just thinking about possibilities.
- [50:32]
A
So to that point for the two of you, as we wrap up, to the designers and the listeners to whom this world feels out of their comfort zone, perhaps, or it seems out of reach for them both in the collectible design world, but also just the gallery
- [50:50]
B
world and the art world.
- [50:52]
A
But they want to learn more. They want to engage more here in this space. What's the advice? What's the counsel you give Rodman?
- [51:03]
B
I want to always remind everybody that there's this almost performative thing about galleries of being kind of, you know, like, snotty or, you know, exclusive. And like, these people want to sell things, it's part of the sales technique to create that barrier.
- [51:19]
A
But the reality is they think that's part of the business.
- [51:23]
B
They think that's part of the business thing is to make you feel so lucky and making you feel insecure and, like, you've gotta spend more to get their respect. But I think the reality is actually when you are comfortable enough to say, I don't know what that is. Can you tell me about it? People want to tell you. They do want to tell you. They want to. Like, I think that the dance that goes on is like, when you try to say, like, oh, I've seen that before, blah, blah, blah. And then the person talking was like, you've never seen this before. Like, all this kind of performative stuff is just so stupid. And the real way to get there is just to say, oh, could you tell me about that? Tell me about that painting? Who is this artist? Who is. What is that work? I think it's so disarming the moment that someone actually just says, could you tell me about this? And also you realizing, like, this person just wants to sell you something, whether you can buy it or not doesn't matter, but they're just a salesperson. Nine. Nine times out of ten, they want to sell you.
- [52:22]
C
I would say that there's art worlds and design worlds, and what you have to remember is that you can belong into part some of those worlds, right? Like, there's corners of the art world that I don't connect with or people that I don't connect with, and that's okay. But then you meet the other person, or you go to the other gallery, or you meet the other designer, and you start building community. So it takes time, but it also takes effort. So I think if you show up in a gallery, they treat you, they don't treat you nicely, and you leave and you think the art world is terrible. That's just the wrong way to look at it. There's wonderful people in this world of art and design. There's incredible galleries, there's incredible makers, there's incredible moments, and it just takes a minute to keep at it. And meeting, being in the right place, going to the right places, but you have to keep at it. Like, Rodman and I have been gallery and museum squirrels since we were teenagers, and that's what happened.
- [53:18]
B
Okay.
- [53:19]
A
Okay. Well, great advice, gentlemen. Such a pleasure to get to spend time with both of you and I, and I'm so grateful to you for. From. From different locations and different time zones, perhaps making the time to. To talk with me.
- [53:32]
C
Thank you. We're fans and we're super grateful to be invited.
- [53:34]
B
It's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much.
- [53:39]
A
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.