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Business of Home Podcast
Salvesen Graham is taking English style to new places
01:08:01
The celebrated design duo share the story of their partnership and career
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- [00:04]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm your host Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guests this week are Nicole Salveson and Mary Graham of British design studio Salveson Graham. The two first met at university and then went in different directions. Mary worked for Sidney Levison and Nicole for iconic English decorator Nina Campbell. Then in 2013, they came together to launch their own firm. Since then, Salveson Graham has become known for creating English interiors with a fresh, approachable feel, spaces full of layered pattern, quiet color and a touch of nostalgia. The two have also launched a product line including a fast growing fabric business which is set to expand here in the US I spoke with Nicole and Mary about the differences between American and British clients, why they don't mind being known for a house style, and why they entered their partnership slowly and deliberately and why that's helped it stand the test of time. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. If you miss them at Vegas Market, Laloy's newest summer introductions keep design at the forefront, pieces that are beautiful in your home and ethically crafted. The new collections are handmade in India and goodweave certified, which ensures they come from an ethical and transparent supply chain. See those collections and more@leloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com follow them on Instagram and TikTok at laloy rugs to see the rugs from even more angles. This podcast is sponsored by Blue Dot, Minnesota's premier modern design brand. If you're a pro, you're going to want to know about Blue Dot's newly updated trade program. Members receive 20% off every order. Every day you get a dedicated trade concierge, AKA a real human being who can assist you with product info, samples, ordering and fulfillment. You'll also get early access to new designs and special finishes reserved just for the trade. There's even more, so head over to BlueDOT.com to learn all about it. That's B L u d o t.com and now on with the show. One of the things I'm wondering about and we'll talk about who you both worked for in the past, but in coming together and starting your firm back in 2013, I wonder how clear a vision you might have had when you first got going.
- [03:09]
Mary Graham
I looked at an original business plan in the loosest of terms the other day that we'd written and it said something like, you know, if we reach 10 years, we will want to have two or three senior designers with other team members working below them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, gosh, had we known, you know, that's pretty accurate. We're probably slightly bigger now than the 30 whatever year olds we were had predicted. But yeah, I think we were always ambitious. I would say not in a sort of aggressive way, but we knew if we were going to do this, we're both hard workers and if we do things, we do it properly. So I think we knew right from the beginning that we wanted to make this a really proper, successful business. And we've touched upon before this idea that creativity and business acumen are not mutually exclusive. And I think in our industry, sometimes being businesslike is a bit frowned upon because then people think, well, you're probably not that creative if you're interested in the business side. But we wanted to set out to prove that you can do both.
- [04:13]
Nicole Salveson
And when we started, we'd both been working for 10 years before we started Salvis and Graham, and we had been working for some greats in the industry who we were slightly in awe of as well. So that didn't necessarily feel achievable or attainable, actually. So it was just about setting out our goals to be working on really great projects and to have a nice team supporting that. It was never necessarily hugely more ambitious than that. And I think that if we're honest, we probably always did want to do a book and we wanted to create a product line, but we never really voiced that because it was always. We would have to get to those stages to then for those things to develop. And when we started the business, the industry generally was going through a period of change. You know, when we started, everyone was using fax machines. I mean, I think some of my early jobs, I didn't have a computer.
- [05:04]
Mary Graham
Taking checks to the bank, clients that you would cash.
- [05:07]
Nicole Salveson
So, you know, it was different. And I think that, like Mary says, this idea of very businesslike interior design practices wasn't quite so established as it is today. I think we look around and all our peers are completely fantastic and have such a high level of professionalism within their businesses, as do all those greats that have been around for a very long time. But there was still an element in the industry of people going to a client's house and laying out fabrics on a table. And that was how you created the interior. And CAD was still relatively new. Certainly more on the interiors fit outside of the business, less so obviously architecturally, and it was being used in quite basic ways at that time, certainly in the sort of firms that we were working for that were much more creatively driven.
- [05:55]
Mary Graham
The interior design business in the UK is much more in its infancy than it is in the States. You know, as a. The concept of it being a profession is a relatively new thing. There's definitely still a way to go. And I think, I mean, that's why we love American clients, because they do understand that the business and the service element of the industry and they are happy to go out and buy new product or tell their friends about you. And we find the understanding that I think an American client brings to a project really refreshing for us because so often for a UK client, it is the first time they worked with a designer. It's a relatively new experience. Maybe they haven't got friends who have worked with designers, so you're sort of educating them on the process as well as decorating the house. Whereas with most of our American clients, they have a level of understanding already, which can just make things easier at.
- [06:49]
Nicole Salveson
The beginning when you are starting a firm. And because there are so many different ways of doing this, and there are lots of people that start one man bands from, you know, without going to design school or just doing design school, they don't work for anyone else, they don't gain all that experience. And there's definitely a huge place for that in the industry. But I think also when you're setting yourself up to do the sort of projects that we do, you have to set yourself up in a different way because the level of service that you're providing for that client is very different and very high level and detailed. You know, you're doing a lot of backend work behind the scenes for them because this sort of level and size and scope of project requires that. So I think that's the other thing that we have seen change a bit in the industry, or it's certainly the side of the industry that we're working on. And you have to differentiate yourself from those. You know, when you go to a dinner party and someone says, oh, my wife, she's done our house. And I keep telling her she'd become an interior designer, there's nothing wrong with that. But equally. And there's absolutely a place for that, but it's not the sort of work that we do and that most of the people, all of the people that you're talking do. So I think that's what we found when we were setting it up. There was also Quite an explosion into the industry of those that. That sort of interior decorator. And we needed to make sure that we were setting ourselves apart from that and how to do that. And I think, as Mary said as well, the client's sensibility has changed. They are much more willing to talk about the financial side of it now. So you have to have really strong conviction that you know what you're talking about as well. So I think that's been really important is to, you know, to be able to show them that you have a very clear grasp on that. Because, you know, there was always those rumors back in the day and the industry had been marred by people buying Picassos for their clients and putting markups on it and, you know, all those stories, stories that you hear in the early days. So I think that was the other thing that, you know, you had to be more transparent.
- [08:49]
Mary Graham
But you're also now, you know, usually part of a team with landscape gardeners, contractors, architects, professional people around the table. And you've, you've got to be as professional as them and as clear about how you are going to run the project or charge all those elements as well. I think there's still. I like to think there's still a special relationship with the interior designer and the client. I think we're, we're a little bit more privy to, to their sort of personal life. That's what a lot of architects. Well, a lot of architects, yes.
- [09:22]
Dennis Scully
A lot of architects will say, no, no, the interior designer will get a hold of my client's ear and they will make the decision.
- [09:28]
Mary Graham
Oh, I see, yeah.
- [09:29]
Nicole Salveson
Oh, they agree with us.
- [09:30]
Dennis Scully
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. They think the interior designer holds the sway.
- [09:35]
Mary Graham
Exactly. But we, we extract all the useful information so they, you know, it's, it's important.
- [09:41]
Nicole Salveson
I think the important thing with that and absolutely, you know, we hugely value and love the collaborations that we have with everyone else in the team and we have come up against it over the years where an architect comes onto a project and thinks that as a decorator you're not going to want to or be able to collaborate and you're not necessarily going to share all those things that you're being told. Obviously some of them you're hop because you're being told them personally for a reason, but, you know, it's to inform the project and to, you know, make sure that everyone is getting, or the client is getting the best out of everyone on the team.
- [10:16]
Dennis Scully
I wonder, we've talked before about when you first started your firm and this notion of Wanting to really dive in. And you had big plans and energy and wanted to get yourselves on the map and in a way, come out from under the shadow of big people that you had worked for. I wonder how one sets about doing that. How do you get yourself known? How do you get the word out there? What did you find worked for you or helped in that effort?
- [10:50]
Nicole Salveson
Yes, because you're absolutely right. The first thing that you're aiming for is really to get those projects to be able to working with those amazing people that you're going to be able to collaborate with. So you want to be able to get there as quickly as possible. And projects take a really long time. So it's also very hard at the beginning of this industry to get your work out there, because actually a project might take minimum 18 months, mostly three years or plus. So actually, that is a real challenge. And I think one of the things that actually, as a partnership, we gave ourselves confidence with early on is we would go to events, you know, we'd go to the parties at Chelsea Harbour and we'd challenge ourselves to make sure we'd go and talk to someone in the press, or we'd have a bit.
- [11:33]
Mary Graham
Of a hit list. We're like, we can't leave this home.
- [11:37]
Dennis Scully
Until we're to stand here talking to each other. We've got to go and we've got to meet some people, we've got to make an impression.
- [11:44]
Mary Graham
And actually, one of the, you know, quite strategic things we did, I think when we started, we realized exactly what you're saying that actually projects take a long time, they might not necessarily get published. You know, how are you going to get your name out there? And even when you were more established, the fact that projects take such a long time, and then magazines quite often sit on imagery for six months as well. It can be years between, you know, features in publications. So we started to dip our toe into product after about five years, I think, of the business.
- [12:15]
Nicole Salveson
Collaboration.
- [12:16]
Mary Graham
Collaboration, yeah, because we realized that if we could design a product that then went into the product pages of a magazine, that was another way of getting your name out there, keeping yourself visible whilst you're waiting for the next project to be finished. And that, I think, was a really good decision.
- [12:33]
Nicole Salveson
Yes, especially because, actually, you know, you want them to know who you are and what you're doing, and that starts to highlight to them that you're working hard as well. So I think that's all the industry wants to know, is that you're willing to put the hard graft into it. So we, we did a furniture collaboration with David Seyfried, who's based in Chelsea Harbour. And it was just a very small collection, but it just gave us something to be able to talk to them about and to bring up. And at the same time, obviously we were working and we were doing a lot of projects and so then we were building up a bit of a body of work. But the other challenge that you come against right at the beginning is that people will come to you because they want an interior designer. And when you don't have your work out there, they are not necessarily choosing you because of what you do. So you do have to be quite careful about, even though you just want to work and do everything that you're offered, you have to be quite careful about making sure that you are still working on the right projects to be pushing you in the right direction so that then you can have some photography.
- [13:32]
Mary Graham
Which is hard at the start. I mean, I think candidly we said.
- [13:37]
Nicole Salveson
Yes to everything.
- [13:39]
Dennis Scully
As one does, as one has to do.
- [13:41]
Mary Graham
Totally. And I think, I don't know, what do you think, Nicole? Maybe the seven year sort of mark was when I think we really felt a shift in our confidence to say no to projects or to spot the red flags of projects, that we weren't going to be a right fit for projects or clients.
- [13:58]
Nicole Salveson
MARY yes, well, that's what I was going to say. No, I think that it was earlier on that we started to really feel the change. Probably more like the five year mark or four or five years where we felt, wow, we're really now able to, we're being asked to do what we love and that is so fantastic. You know, we're not a huge practice. We have eight designs, designers in our team and then Mary and I and then. So it's certainly a sort of middle size, mid sized practice. It's always changing and growing a little bit and there's a few plans in that. But you know, I think essentially it is about. So you're not paying hugely over the odds, but it means that we should as a practice be taking on a certain level of project because those are the ones that we're going to be most useful to the client on. So, you know, yes, there's that. So we pushed ourselves out there, we did the collaborations and then after a while it started ticking over a lot more. And you know, the first project that was photographed for House and Garden was a project we had such a brilliant time doing. We absolutely loved the client, it was great, but it was all gray, which is something that we are not known for.
- [15:06]
Dennis Scully
So it didn't represent.
- [15:08]
Nicole Salveson
No, it did not represent Salvis and Graham. And when it came to sort of the interview for the article, the Jealous, who actually was David Nichols, who we then did the book with, and we've known him since the very early days.
- [15:20]
Mary Graham
Oh, yeah.
- [15:20]
Dennis Scully
Full circle.
- [15:21]
Nicole Salveson
Yeah. And he. And he said, right, you know, how are we going to swing this? You know, because it was so different to what we'd become known for and what we've been really sort of peddling and pushing out there to sort of, you know, to build our brand. And I think that's also what's so important. You can't. I think there's a lot of shame in this industry to say that you. You have a house style. I don't know why. Because actually, that house style, you know, we definitely have work on so many different projects for so many different clients. And I like to think, or we like to think that our projects look quite different, but there's absolutely a thread running through those, and people will come to us and say, I could just tell that was Salvs and Graham. It just had your sort of hallmark on it. And actually, we went to a project. We did a project in Mayfair, again with absolutely gorgeous clients. And they very kindly invited my family and I over for Christmas drinks. And when we got there, my daughter said to me. She sort of whispered. She said, mummy, I can tell you did this. It feels like you. And I think that's that sort of thing that runs through. It's quite gentle, I think, and I hope that's what she saw in it. I'll quiz her a bit more when she's old enough to.
- [16:33]
Mary Graham
We did laugh when we were approached to do the book. Very much the idea. She said, oh, you know, you guys are so known for color and pattern. And as we started putting the imagery together for the book, we were thinking, uh, oh, you know, I don't think this is the brightly colored, multicolored book that they're expecting. Because it was almost. It was interesting to us, as we looked at all our images together, to think, actually, yes, we're not as colorful as people think. It's much more sort of nuanced than that. Very classic, but still colorful.
- [17:06]
Dennis Scully
Well, and one of the things, and I'm curious about how this is perceived in the uk, One of the things, sadly, that happened during various periods in America when real estate would be booming and people would be flipping houses and people began to neutralize the appearance of their homes. With the idea that they weren't gonna have it very long. And I need to be conscious of the fact that we're gonna sell this house in a couple of years. And so it can't be too personal or too colorful. Right.
- [17:39]
Mary Graham
It's so depressing. Exactly.
- [17:42]
Dennis Scully
Which is so demoraliz. And what do you mean this is your home? But people really did. And that's where all of this beiginess and a lot of the neutrality crept.
- [17:54]
Mary Graham
In and then suddenly stayed.
- [17:56]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. And then never left. And then people began to think, oh wait, I'm not gonna sell this home. I am gonna be here for a long time. And the funny thing is, I mean, what happened here is interest rates rose up and suddenly people realized people couldn't realize people couldn't leave.
- [18:11]
Nicole Salveson
Right.
- [18:12]
Dennis Scully
Oh my gosh. This is our fore.
- [18:15]
Mary Graham
So you're stuck in your beige house.
- [18:17]
Dennis Scully
Exactly.
- [18:18]
Nicole Salveson
Yeah.
- [18:18]
Mary Graham
I think we're quite lucky in that the people who come to us, obviously if they're making the investment in interior design, one would assume it's because they want to stay in the house for a while. So they don't tend to be looking at it as an investment. And that makes it so much more enjoyable for us. And when you hear someone pipes up and says, well, hang on, let's just think about the future and should we do this in a neutral way or. Or whatever. We just say, look, even if it's only five years, you're going to be here and the likelihood is more like 10 plus you're living here. This is part of your life. You will wake up every day and go into this kitchen or look at this room. And your children will spend so much time in their bedrooms. This is to enhance your life. And a house can do that. It sounds over the top, but actually good design can radically enhance the way people live. So we will always push for actually just a design full of personality. Whether that means bright colors, colors or muted colors, lots of pattern or texture, but that it really, you've got to be looking at the importance of that in your home rather than just something conservative that will be non offensive when you come to sell it.
- [19:26]
Nicole Salveson
We find this funny and interesting. I find it with lots of my friends as well, that people might dress in the most colorful way and they.
- [19:33]
Mary Graham
Might with real confidence as well about their style.
- [19:36]
Nicole Salveson
Confidence. And they dress, you know, pattern, color, you know, different shapes and, and scales in their outfits and their accessories. And then when it comes to their interiors, they completely lose confidence in it. And that's so much of what we need to educate our clients with. It's like, just have confidence with this, you know, we'll keep going. We never, you know, we don't like to push them too far out of their comfort zone. But where would the value in us be if we're not pushing them to a level that's beyond what they would be able to do themselves or they would be able to choose themselves. So, you know, a lot of our clients will come to us sort of saying, oh, you know, you know, I love this, but can we pair it back? And, you know, we normally get at least to that level, if not further, because I think that's what's so important. And actually I think they do then realise a bit like, you know, my daughter pointed out, she's quite calm. You know, some of the interiors that we do that might look multicolored on a screen, actually, because you have that visual balance which is so important to arrive at. I think this style of interiors. Whereas, you know, those very modern, slick apartments was what appealed to the younger client historically. I think a lot of younger people still want that, that real emotional connection now with their homes. I think a lot of what's happening in the world is creating that. So those who want to, who potentially have the access to spend more on their homes are turning to a different sort of aesthetic now than they were before. We've really noticed such a different change in that with huge relief. Yeah.
- [21:03]
Mary Graham
Why do all these, you know, high net worth clients only want interiors that look like hotels and now suddenly it's changed.
- [21:10]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. And that's just what I was going to say for so long. And I remember it, the W hotels were a huge sensation in the States and that was a period and everybody. Oh my, yes, I absolutely want my home to look just like this. And you thought, really, you want your home to look like this hotel that says absolutely nothing about you and totally impersonal.
- [21:32]
Mary Graham
Yes. I mean, it is actually interesting thinking about that, the role I think that hotels and hospitality plays in interiors trends. Because then you think, think the reaction to that, I would say, was Kit Kemp's Hotels. And then suddenly everyone was thinking, oh, I want color in my home and I want a pattern on my headboard and all those things. And you know, we find often clients now are referencing those kind of places as their inspiration. And the people that were wanting the sort of faceless hotel now want a kind of English country house style, which is music to our ears when we've.
- [22:05]
Nicole Salveson
Done a lot of work over the years in the hospitality sector. And it's certainly somewhere that we would like to do more work.
- [22:15]
Dennis Scully
Do more.
- [22:15]
Nicole Salveson
Yes, you know, definitely. And when you think about, you know, storytelling, both in our interiors and certainly that idea of telling a story when someone's going to a hotel or being involved in that experience, I think that really resonates with the way that we work and do our projects. So I think that they're really seeking that environment that leaves a sort of lasting impression on them. And I think that's what makes such a difference. We always, when we choose a hotel, want to go to somewhere that feels a little bit better than our home.
- [22:51]
Mary Graham
Yeah, like home, but better.
- [22:53]
Nicole Salveson
Yes. And so when you go to, you know, so then when you get to the point where you can invest in your home, that is what you're seeking. And I think that those commercial spaces that still feel really intimate and have character has just become increasingly important to people. So, yes, Dennis, promote that. Lots more hospitality.
- [23:11]
Mary Graham
Yes.
- [23:16]
Dennis Scully
We're taking a quick break to talk about Bluedot's new trade program. Designers receive exclusive finishes, early access to product launches, and a 20% discount on every order. No minimums required. A dedicated trade concierge is there to help with quotes, samples, and getting things done. Right. Its smart, modern support for how you really work. Learn more@bluedot.com that's B L-U-O-T.com and now back to the show. Take me back. Because the two of you, if I recall, first met at university, Right. Both studying sort of slightly different things and going different directions and. And it was years later that you got together.
- [24:10]
Mary Graham
I mean, I do always love hearing. Cause I can never remember what Nicole started studying. And I love it when she tells people, because I did. I do want you to say it, because I did English and history and with a side portion of architecture, so not surprising where I then ended up. But Nicole said, share your path.
- [24:32]
Nicole Salveson
I, Dennis, did Middle Eastern studies in Arabic, and then I did theology and sociology and anthropology. So I had a sort of checkered experience at university with lots of different learning.
- [24:45]
Dennis Scully
And in your mind at the time, what were you imagining?
- [24:49]
Nicole Salveson
What were you thinking?
- [24:50]
Dennis Scully
Where were you going with all of that?
- [24:52]
Mary Graham
Perhaps what your parents were also asking you.
- [24:55]
Nicole Salveson
No, I think I was always very, very creative. And that is what shines through with the way that we approach our interiors. So I think that we, you know, I certainly. I used to paint my room constantly. And we both grew, going to lots of historic houses. And so I think that actually, what I didn't know at the time really, was that this industry really existed. I think I certainly didn't grow up in that environment. And so. And then it was only after leaving university that I then started to really think about this as an option and interiors as a career I would like to move into.
- [25:31]
Dennis Scully
So tell me, you meet in school.
- [25:33]
Mary Graham
Yeah.
- [25:34]
Dennis Scully
And I don't know how friendly you become in school and then you leave. So it's not as if, oh, great, we'll go off and work together.
- [25:42]
Nicole Salveson
Yeah. Well, we used to hang out a lot, sort of chatting about the industry. And because of the university we went to, lots of our friends went off and became lawyers mainly, or went into finance. So they were all doing something quite different to us.
- [25:57]
Mary Graham
And I think mainly making quite a lot of money. Exactly, I would say was the key.
- [26:01]
Dennis Scully
To coming from rich. They were. They were becoming wealthy.
- [26:04]
Mary Graham
Nicole and I were wondering why. Why we weren't.
- [26:07]
Nicole Salveson
Yes, we were biding our time for them all to become our clients. So we then. So we would sort of chat about the industry and then, you know, life. Life changed. You know, marriages happened, babies started arriving, and I think that that is what sort of then changes your path a bit. So I think that's why we sort of, you know, decided to start thinking about what we wanted the future to hold. And I think a partnership is an interesting point as well. You know, should we do that? That took a while to decide. Less for me. I like to jump into things.
- [26:42]
Mary Graham
Nicole had to really woo me.
- [26:44]
Dennis Scully
Is that right? So Nicole had to sell you on the whole idea of, come on, we can go out on our own, we can do well.
- [26:50]
Mary Graham
I think also she was working on her own at the time and I was still working somewhere that I really loved. And, you know, I'd been there a long time and it was definitely right for me to leave, to develop, you know, move on myself. But every time I thought about it, we landed another great job and I.
- [27:06]
Nicole Salveson
Was like, oh, I don't want to.
- [27:08]
Mary Graham
I don't want to give this up. But. And also, I think, as Nicole said about partnerships, you know, by that point we were really good friends. And I think you'd already had your first child, who I was godmother to. So there's a lot at stake. You know, if this doesn't work, not only has a business failed, but potentially a friendship's been damaged as well, and children going hungry.
- [27:28]
Dennis Scully
I mean.
- [27:28]
Mary Graham
Exactly right. Awful things.
- [27:31]
Dennis Scully
Yes, terrible.
- [27:33]
Mary Graham
So we did, you know, really seriously think about what might happen if things did go south, you know, so eventually, you know, I. I did. I did sign up and here we are 13 years later.
- [27:47]
Nicole Salveson
And not to touch back on this wooing point, but it is very, you know, it is very much like a marriage. You have to have constant check ins with each other. Our lives have changed personally since we started. You know, Mary's now based in Yorkshire, I'm still in London. I have three children, Mary has two. You know, but the absolute positive of all that is you have someone in your corner and someone supporting you. So I think that that is what's made this such a, you know, in our mind such a great partnership is there's been moments where one of us is, you know, anxious about something and for some reason and we've been very lucky with this, the other one isn't. And it's always been the case with us that when someone's stressing someone else isn' and I think that's what's been so great and it means that we can help solve those problems together.
- [28:34]
Mary Graham
And then actually the times when we're both thinking everything's awful, then it's quite funny and you just laugh and go and have a glass of wine, you.
- [28:40]
Dennis Scully
Know, well, and, and I, and I wonder, I mean to that, to that point because of course back 2013, I mean it's 1212 years, lots of ups and downs and. Right. And challenges along the way and how lucky that you were, were friends, good friends to help get. And so often in couples they talk about, well, obviously you recognize neither is always going to be at 100% and so you hope that when one person is at 20% the other person can quickly step up.
- [29:14]
Nicole Salveson
We make 100. I'd like to say we make more than 100 together.
- [29:17]
Mary Graham
We're a combined 150 on a normal.
- [29:20]
Nicole Salveson
Day, on a good day.
- [29:23]
Mary Graham
But yeah, and actually so often at industry events or if we're speaking on panels or things like that, people come up to us afterwards and say, I'm thinking about, you know, I do it on my own. And actually it's really lonely. I'm thinking about setting up with someone, you know, what would your advice be? How, how does that work? And I think it is really brilliant. But I think you have to be really clear at the outset of what your goals are, what your expectations are so that both people are aligned, which is what we took time to do. Because if you, if you find out sort of later that someone's got a different vision, I think that's when the cracks appear and things start falling apart. But definitely it can be a lonely experience when you're a single one man band and that's. I think the one comment we hear so often from people is it's really lonely and creatively I don't have anyone to bounce ideas off. So we often recommend, if people aren't looking to form a partnership, to form a little gathering in their area, whether it's WhatsApp, whether they're meeting for a coffee once a month or something like that. Because it is so, so comforting to talk to other people in the same industry and hear that other people are having problems with suppliers or issues with staff or tricky clients or whatever it might be. To have that network of support, I think is really important. And it is an industry where people are very supportive. We find that compared to some other creative industries, it's actually very collaborative, very supportive. People are generous with their information and it's, you know, you have to ask. But people will sort of support and help. And that's really lovely.
- [30:58]
Dennis Scully
No, and I'm glad to hear that. And a lot of designers do talk to me about, again, I don't want to call them support groups, but friend groups and where they can. And it's interesting because partnerships are very challenging and some very, very famous partnerships haven't lasted, didn't work out for various reasons and as you were alluding to, really have to be on the same page and it turns out you've gotta stay on the same page, which is the harder part. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, and again, similar to marriage in a remarkable way. And that, you know, you both have to grow and want the same things for your future. And as we were talking about earlier, the two of you had some visions. I love that you had a vision. Oh, of course we want a product line and of course we wanna do a book in the future. And I wonder to the point about the book, what did you think the book represented or what? When you think about wanting to have that in the future, what's the significance of that?
- [31:58]
Nicole Salveson
Well, I think it's interesting. First of all, I was going to say that the book, doing the book has also been a bit like therapy and marriage. And I think we weren't necessarily expecting that to come out of it.
- [32:07]
Mary Graham
Tell me about that.
- [32:08]
Nicole Salveson
And it's been so when we were approached to do the book, initially, I think it was interesting. We wanted to feel that we were giving a fresh perspective in some way and we really wanted to explore this idea of moving away from this historical view of English interiors as only being grand estates and Georgian piles. But we really wanted to Explore that. Actually, this style can be incorporated into any number of properties, with the common thread being layering and pattern and antiques. So I think when we were thinking about how we were going to approach the book, that became very clear. And then this new English style. That is what we're trying to say. We're not trying to say that it's a completely new version of English interiors.
- [32:57]
Dennis Scully
It's a completely redefined English style.
- [33:01]
Nicole Salveson
Well, if you say so, Dennis, it.
- [33:03]
Mary Graham
Turns out you can reinvent the wheel.
- [33:05]
Nicole Salveson
Yes, exactly. But that, you know, actually, if you think. You know our thought when asked about what is English style? It is an evolution of interior styles, and it's a collection of those things. So. So for us, this is part of that evolution, and it's the next stage of it. So often, especially when we're doing really regarded homes, certainly in England, because we do obviously have quite strict planning regulations, what our clients are often doing is putting their generational stamp on something. And I think we really explored that when we were thinking about what we were trying to say here and that it's okay to put that stamp on it while respecting what else has happened and what else has come before.
- [33:48]
Mary Graham
I remember reading a brilliant quote, and I always kind of saved them on the notes of my computer. I'm just looking at one now that was Nancy Lancaster saying, tradition is not a matter of sticking to the past, but living with it. And I think that exemplifies it so well that it doesn't mean you have to live in a museum or you have to be absolutely historically accurate, but you want to live with those things, make them livable for the 21st century. You know, so often the houses we work on have got kitchens miles away from dining rooms and are just set up in an archaic way for how people live nowadays. So it's about keeping the spirit of a home, but making it relevant for today.
- [34:28]
Dennis Scully
Do you find that the book itself, the existence of the book, speaks to a milestone in your careers and how far you've come, and does it put some things in perspective for you?
- [34:46]
Nicole Salveson
Yes, definitely. I think that being approached to do it in the first place was sort of surprising. You know, it wasn't surprising. It felt. It did feel the right time, but equally, it became a moment to sit down and really think, okay, do we actually have the body of work to do this? You know, can we. Would we feel very. It feels very permanent. So we want to make sure that we feel very proud of all the projects in there. And actually, we questioned that. It went back and forth of quite a bit. But actually, when we sat down and got all the photos out there, we felt really proud and excited that we had this. You know, I mean, the publisher has. It's. It's. There's a reprint happening and, you know, we've. It's a hot title right now.
- [35:27]
Mary Graham
It's been listed as a hot title. So we just got that news last week, so we were really thrilled. But as Nicole says, it was funny because when. When the idea first came up, I think. I think we both felt like this, but I certainly felt suddenly very British and very female in that I was questioning, are we good? You know, is anyone going to want to look at these things? Should we shout about it? You know, oh, this doesn't feel. You know, this doesn't feel right. And the whole process was really cathartic and, as Nicole said, quite emotional, looking back at what we'd achieved over the years. And I think one of the surprising things about the book and taking this time to reflect was that when your business is busy and going well, you just don't stop. You don't stop to pat yourselves or your team on the back. You're always onto the next project or onto the next magazine feature. You don't stop to think, do we need to update our business plan? Because you're being so reactive, because you're so busy. Which is great, obviously. But the thing that was just brilliant about the book was it afforded us time to stop and take a step back and think. And I think that was actually almost the greatest gift of the book, aside from having this product in our hands. And I don't think we would have done that had we not been preparing the book. So now it's a moment to think, well, what's next?
- [36:50]
Dennis Scully
So what does the updated business plan.
- [36:53]
Nicole Salveson
Well, exactly.
- [36:54]
Dennis Scully
What's in there?
- [36:55]
Nicole Salveson
Yes. I mean, to that point of not having endless hours in the day to achieve everything. And we haven't even talked about yet about our product line, which when we first started the product line, we thought, oh, this is just, you know, being inspired by Nina and especially who we sought advice about doing fabric. Fabric collection early on in our careers. The answer to which was not necessarily hugely positive.
- [37:27]
Mary Graham
But we did it anyway.
- [37:28]
Nicole Salveson
But we did it anyway.
- [37:31]
Dennis Scully
What do you know exactly, Nina say? Because I know that she wants to be encouraging, but also knows how challenging it is.
- [37:40]
Nicole Salveson
She. I mean, if anything, she taught us. I mean, a. Well, to me, a. She taught me to work hard and to be willing to get stuck in and do anything that was required to get a project over the line and done, but also to support others. And I think that is something she does do so beautifully. And, you know, I saw it when I was working for her and, you know, she sent the most lovely email of congratulations about the book recently, which was, you know, quite an emotional moment. So I think that actually when she did tell us that perhaps doing a fabric line was, you know, quite a huge undertaking, we perhaps should have listened.
- [38:20]
Mary Graham
Because we can now confirm that it.
- [38:22]
Nicole Salveson
Is when we first started, you know, and you have, you know, an odd design here and there. It doesn't feel such a big, big part of the business, but what it has become is another business. And actually, you realize that, you know, essentially you are running to, you know, not separate because they are very much still together and under brand stuff. So. Graham. But it. It is a whole nother business. And so that 150 that Mary and I have.
- [38:47]
Dennis Scully
Thank goodness you've got.
- [38:49]
Mary Graham
Thank goodness for that.
- [38:50]
Nicole Salveson
Yeah.
- [38:51]
Mary Graham
But, you know, you realize product and service are two entirely different things. The way you make money from them is entirely different. The way you manage those businesses is entirely different. And there's only so much kind of headspace and hours in the day. So that's something that has been challenging. But we both relish a challenge, so it's been exciting.
- [39:12]
Nicole Salveson
Exactly. And we thought long and hard about it. And bearing in mind there are already two of us, we have actually bought in a consultant to help us really think about how we're going to approach the next three to five years, really, to really solidify that. That business plan for the coming years, because we have to be there for our clients and we have to stay doing that. And the interiors is our absolute passion. But this other side of our business, the product, has become also so gratifying and exciting that we want to make sure that we're giving that what it deserves as well.
- [39:50]
Mary Graham
Yeah. And I think from a business perspective as well, the service side of the industry in some degree is quite out of your hands in terms of a client might get divorced or decide to sell a house, or with the economic situation, it can be so tumultuous. And obviously, selling product is also at the mercy of the economy. But to have a product line where you can scale it, where you can forecast much more accurately, we're really enjoying that as a sort of business model that you've got. This one side of the business that is. Is you're working a lot harder for less profit on the service side, but it's very gratifying but on the product side, you can forecast sales, you can set ambitious targets. It's much more definable. And I think it's really nice having that balance of the two. And we just wanted to have that kind of stability across the business that we weren't relying on only one income stream and one source of revenue.
- [40:51]
Dennis Scully
So many people fall in love with the idea of doing a fair fabric line. Right. And it's one of my favorite conversations with people because I love hearing what it means to them, what the white space that they saw out there in fabric land that they desperately needed to fill. But also, I mean, and again, so many people have described Dennis. If nothing else, I needed a creative escape from the service side of taking care of all these clients and delivering all these projects, and. And I respect and admire that. Absolutely.
- [41:28]
Nicole Salveson
I mean, when we first started the collection, so. And I think really now it is very much focused on fabric and wallpaper that is the future of what we're doing. When we originally started the collection, we saw it more as a way. It was in Covid. It was also that time that this felt more appropriate, more as a way for an end user to access a little snippet of joy, you know, and a bit of Salvis and Graham in their own homes. And. And as it's now developed and evolved, it has grown up a bit. And while we still absolutely love those earlier fabrics, the collection has changed, and it, you know, it's a bit more grounded on what we want and what we use. So I think, yes, you know, we are never arrogant enough, ever, in our way we approach everything, to think that we are reinventing the wheel. But we did want to make sure that we were at least filling a void that we. Or something that we just felt was really beautiful and wanted to use and felt excited that we could do that.
- [42:27]
Mary Graham
I think, as Nicole said when we started, we were thinking, what do we think the customer wants from us? And tailoring our designs to them. Now we're very much doing what do we want to create with the assumption that those who like our style will therefore like what we like. And actually, that's feeling a lot more comfortable and a lot more authentic. And I hope the recipe for success.
- [42:51]
Dennis Scully
Yes, and that's that going back to an earlier part of the conversation, is that fine line that you walk with the house style issue because you want people to have enough of a recognition of what your style is to desire it, particularly if you're developing a collection. Oh, here you go. You can have some of Thomas and Graham, and here's wallpapers and fabrics. And if this resonates with you, here you are. And so I do think that is the value of, and I hate using that term brand, but brand building, because I do think that's in a lot of ways, whether we like it or not, that's what we're all doing. We're all building brands, whether it's a personal brand or a business brand or both. And certainly today we're all expected to appear on social media regularly. And you've built a sizable following through, I'm certain, no small effort. And, and I don't know. And, you know, so often in the States, we're asking designers who tell us, oh, I'm getting so much of my business from Instagram, or I'm getting so many of the leads. Is. That certainly sounds like it's the case for you.
- [44:06]
Mary Graham
It's a very important tool for us. Absolutely. We find, I'd say it's very rare that you. You get a client directly from Instagram that then converts into, you know, a sizable job. But what you do get is people who are already interested in you validating their decision via what they see on Instagram. And it's the same with being in top 100 lists on magazines. There are a few clients actually, and I would say more so international clients who literally go down those lists, pick three companies, interview them and choose one. But more often it's people that have maybe been recommended you by someone else, and then they use Instagram and the interiors magazines as a way to. To confirm their suspicions and to confirm that they want to go ahead with you. So they're so useful in that respect. And also, as we were saying earlier, magazines take a long time to publish projects, so you need to make that call. Do you want to hold back a project and give it to a magazine to publish, or do you actually want to be in control of it and send it out to the world via social media, where you're going to get much more immediate response. So I think there's a balance. Both are valuable to us, and you need to be doing a bit of both, I think, to reassure any publishers out there. The thrill you get from having your work in print press is still, you know, the absolute best. So I think that's what we all kind of COVID and love. But in between those published pieces, you need to be doing all the other things as well.
- [45:39]
Dennis Scully
And in the States, we are wildly envious of your publications.
- [45:45]
Mary Graham
Yeah, we're very lucky.
- [45:46]
Dennis Scully
British House and Gardens and World of Interiors and Homes and Gardens and Living, et cetera. I mean, all of the much glossier paper than we have in the States and the much thicker shelter magazines than we have in the States. No, it's a very challenging time in media. My wife worked for Architectural Digest during the heyday of Architectural Digest when that was a three or often 400 page magazine. And I think I would be quite concerned if she would lose her temper and hurl one in my direction.
- [46:20]
Nicole Salveson
But I think you, and to the point where, you know, even going back to the fact that we run two businesses, one's a service, you know, or two sides, our business, one's the service side and one's a product side, you also have to look at that in a different way and how you're promoting it. So I think that's also been a part of the journey of how we work.
- [46:42]
Dennis Scully
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- [47:40]
Mary Graham
It's an ongoing discussion, isn't it?
- [47:42]
Nicole Salveson
Absolutely, yeah. And I think as part of, as part of this reassessing the size of the business, we can't have them both continue to grow in the way they are and then be allocating the same amount of time because there are only so many hours in the day. But I think also the other thing we've got a lot better at in terms of a partnership, we very much finish each other's sentences. There's very little. But even if we don't completely agree on that, we haven't reached an understanding on. So I think that we've got a lot better as well at just getting on with something separately and making things work. And I think that's immediately given us more hours in the day. So I think those sorts of elements. But in terms of the other side of it is that it Also doesn't just need to be us. We have now some wonderful people in the team who work very hard to ensure that the social media presence is still there and that each new product launch is having its moment in the sun and being seen. And I think that's really important. So, you know, we rely on them to come to us, to report to us, and the creative element of that absolutely will always come from Mary and I. We, you know, we think that is incredibly important and our client relationships always are with Mary and I because that's very important that they still get that side from us. So we've sort of ring fenced certain non negotiables and then we've brought brilliant people on to work with us to help us achieve what else needs to be done. So that's become a new frontier, I think, for Savs and Graham in recent years.
- [49:26]
Mary Graham
And also when you've got an eponymous famous firm, we obviously have some form of lifespan, who knows how long or short that is. And you've talked about this, I know, with other guests, about legacy and things like that. You do have to think you can't have a business that is entirely reliant on, on the two of us, because in one shape or form, at some point the two of us won't be here. So we're starting to think now, I think about what does that look like? Does the product line need us as the face of it? We know some textile designers who are also interior designers who are sort of not physically attached to their product line at all or their Persona, as it were, isn't part of that. And I think that's quite an interesting discussion. And I definitely think we haven't landed on the final answer of how tied to us as people it is or not.
- [50:20]
Nicole Salveson
And it's affected some of the decisions we've made with how we run the fabric collections, how we style, for example, we've been working with multi line showrooms in the us, for example, so in the uk it all goes through South Graham and we have one roving external sales rep that helps us, which is quite a recent acquisition. And then we in the us, as I said, we work with multi line showrooms and we specifically chosen that route because it suits how our business is structured because we are based in the UK and we currently work with James in Dallas and Houston and New York, we're with Temple and we've recently also started working with Greco, who are in Madrid actually. So that's the sort of European side of it. But, you know, definitely as Part of this growth, we are looking to continue to work with more showrooms across the US because, and rather than, you know, we have given it a lot of thought, we could send people out and do it more direct to the designers. But actually we feel like that support that you get from working with those showrooms is invaluable and we are delighted with a, the sales and also with the relationships that we're building with the teams there. So we were in New York recently with Temple and that was fabulous.
- [51:45]
Mary Graham
And actually it was so exciting when we were there. A packet from us arrived literally into.
- [51:51]
Nicole Salveson
The studio when we were there. So we suddenly were like, stop what you're doing, we gotta film this.
- [51:56]
Mary Graham
This is for Instagram. So you know, film some samples being opened. And it was just really great to see the enthusiasm from the team there. And I think also a trap that people can fall into, particularly UK textile houses, is that America is so much bigger than the uk. The, the different regions have such different personalities. A style that's going to work in LA is not ne in Charleston. So yes, we can understand that on a, on a fairly basic level. But actually that's where we're finding the benefit of these showrooms is they really know their audience in the way that we know the UK audience. So because then, you know, we listen to your show enough, Dennis, or the Thursday show as well to know that multi line showrooms is also a hot topic.
- [52:41]
Dennis Scully
Love the multi line showroom conversation. How fascinating to learn what a difference there is between Dallas and Houston just in terms of. Right, it's the same state and yet.
- [52:52]
Mary Graham
It'S often a very different client to us Brits. That's almost incomprehensible because it's so dissimilar over here. So yeah, we see a great, for us, we see a great value in that and the knowledge that they have. And yeah, we've got a pretty hefty expansion plan in motion for next year.
- [53:10]
Dennis Scully
So look, rolling out into many other markets in the U.S. yes, well, we're.
- [53:14]
Nicole Salveson
Already seeing really encouraging sales coming direct to us from those areas. But it just seems to make more sense rather than that to continue just coming to us to work with these showrooms who can facilitate it in a better way. So you know, we want to monopolize on those sales we're already receiving and then work directly more with those areas.
- [53:32]
Mary Graham
Yeah, it's a big focus for us for the next two years, I would say.
- [53:36]
Dennis Scully
Well, a great multi line partner and you've got some great partners already. I'm crazy about Temple and I'm. And the James people are some of the best. And I have huge admiration and great multi line partners and as you say, who really understand the markets, who know the lines and can just nurture and grow your business in a way that you couldn't possibly be over here. Right.
- [54:05]
Mary Graham
I mean, you have to be realistic about these things. And I think that's another thing of growing up and growing in a business. You've got to start letting go of certain things and recognizing when there's someone with more expertise.
- [54:20]
Dennis Scully
And has that been hard? Has it been hard to let go of that? Because it is naturally.
- [54:24]
Mary Graham
We're naturally what you might call control freaks.
- [54:30]
Dennis Scully
You said it.
- [54:31]
Mary Graham
If you were being rude.
- [54:33]
Nicole Salveson
I think we like. I think we like being. We started this business because we like, like running a business and we like being involved in all the different elements of it. So I think. And you know, reflecting on our experience and our learning over the years, we've been so lucky to learn from both those we worked in our early days, these really inspiring female founders and then also some of those people we've collaborated with. We've done a trimmings collection with Sanderson. And I know Lisa was, I think, on this podcast at some point, and, you know, she has. Working with the team there. They were so generous with their. Their experience and their knowledge and their.
- [55:19]
Dennis Scully
Advice, their vast archive and all of the.
- [55:21]
Nicole Salveson
Exactly. So in that sense, it was just fabulous to work with them because of that archive and the history. But also just that, you know, they actually really wanted to impart that they, you know, that knowledge on us for our own collection. So that was, you know, we want to feed off anything that anyone will give us.
- [55:38]
Mary Graham
There's constant learning.
- [55:40]
Nicole Salveson
Yeah.
- [55:40]
Mary Graham
Well, in which we love.
- [55:42]
Dennis Scully
Right. And we've touched on the people that each of you worked for in the past. But let's spend a little bit of time with that because so often there's this notion that one can come out of design school and immediately start their own firm. And surely you've learned all you need to and you can just jump right in. But the two of you went a very different route and both worked for, as you say, these powerful female founders. Mary, you worked for Cindy Levison, and Nicole, as we've suggested, worked for Nina Campbell. But tell me, Mary, I mean, tell me a little bit about Cindy Levison and what you learned there. And I know, you know, sort of.
- [56:29]
Mary Graham
Great big projects and, yeah, amazing projects that, you know, I think when you start out and you're Young, and you think, oh, this is what interior design is. You don't realize that not everyone is working on castles. You just think it's normal. And then you have a rude awakening when you start doing, you know, terrace houses in London, that you've got a way to go. But I think one of the things I learned from her, she was a great. And actually her mother, who was. Who was still alive when I worked with Cindy, was also an antique dealer and a decorator and still working, you know, in her 80s until the day she died, really, she was still working. So almost I was having two generations worth of mentorship and advice. I learned really everything, I think I know about antiques from Cindy and developed a real passion for them thanks to her. When I started with her, I was the only person working with her, so really she just shared with me everything thing that. That she knew. And. And it's. It's an absolutely invaluable way to learn. And I actually went to klc. I did design school as well. So I've done both. And they each have their merits. But I think in this industry, you really can't learn without working on the job and seeing a project through from start to finish, which may well take three years. So if someone says, oh, I've done, you know, a couple of years in the business and set up on my own, you can think, well, how many projects can you have actually seen from. From concept to completion if you've only done a couple of years? So I think, you know, investing that time working for someone else is. Is the smart move in my book. And we also joke with people that if you're going to make a mistake, make it on someone else's, you know, dime rather than your own, because, you know, it is a constant learning process. Things go wrong. I think that idea that you want to get some of those kind of things, of mistakes or learning curves under your belt early on, you know, before you're the only person responsible for that. I think that's a really wise, wise move. But, yeah, I think learning from someone experienced. And we were lucky that both of our previous employers were very traditionally schooled, so they were able to share with us some of those techniques which rather fell out of fashion when we were starting out in our careers. And it was very much the bay beige era of the sort of 2000s, but we were lucky that we were working with people who had resisted beige and was still, you know, working with damask and bullions and wonderful trimmings and lacquer paint finishes and Antiques and all these kind of things which really no one else was talking about, you know, in terms of the magazines and things like that. Everyone was about paired back and beige and neutral. So we were lucky to be getting the other side of the story as it was.
- [59:18]
Dennis Scully
Well, and. And Nicole, we mentioned about you working for. For Nina Campbell, who. Who at one point was John Fowler's assistant in her early days. So, I mean. Right.
- [59:28]
Mary Graham
She proves the point of learning. Learning from your. Your employer.
- [59:33]
Nicole Salveson
Yeah, absolutely. I think those days, you know, she would often reference that, you know, those days of sort of walking around with a, you know, as a bag carrier for him, you know, certainly, you know, left set her in good stead. And I think it's also about working for people who have really built up this incredibly incredible body of work and variety of work. And Nina is known, and certainly it's one of the things I respect her for, the reinvention and being able to, you know, reinvent herself while maintaining that ethos of who she is and the way that she's decorating. As I think so many of those great, great did, you know, John Feller and Civil Coverts and so many others that they have been able to reinvent themselves and create these interiors that are able to endure while still having space to move to a sense, do change.
- [60:30]
Mary Graham
We all bandy about this word timeless so much, and it is one of the things we try to create is timeless interiors. But regardless of that, there are sort of the more subtle shifts which happen over generations or periods of time. And when you do look back on someone with a long body of work, I think it is quite clear to see that even when you are creating timeless interiors, they still change and have a slightly different flavor to them over different decades. And I think, yeah, that's something that we are definitely trying to emulate as well. This idea that you have a sort of core set of values and stylistic beliefs, as it were, but you can still adapt and be flexible, whether that's to the period of time or to the type of house you're working in or the continent you're working on, you know, things within that sort of English interiors remit can still be flexible and can change well.
- [61:30]
Dennis Scully
And I wonder, and as we recognize, wrap up starting your own business and really taking it all on yourselves is still very different. You think you've seen it from this perspective. You think you've absorbed a lot of knowledge and surely you have. I wonder what ended up surprising you both about what taking on really running your own firm meant. What what ended up being more challenging or you ended up spending? Oh, I thought I was only going to need this much time to do this, but really I need this time. Or I, I wonder what was the biggest learning or surprise in all that.
- [62:08]
Mary Graham
I mean, I think you probably hit on it with the word time. You think about work all the time. It is relentless. And I think if you don't think about it all the time, probably you shouldn't have your own business. But equally, I think having been thinking about it all the time for 12 years, we'd quite like to think about it a little bit less. So that's why we're trying to navigate, get advice, be more strategic, and I think to make time for creativity. I think one of the things, again, I wouldn't say it's surprised me, but I find a challenge increasingly is the demand for instant responses to things, instant communication. We live in a world where people value immediacy of everything, whether it's binging on a TV series rather than watching it every Saturday night for two months, or it's your food arriving immediately or it's an email being responded to immediate. Immediately. Everyone wants an immediate response. And that's quite hard to square away with the principle of good design, which really requires considered thought and consequently time spent on it. And I think finding that balance for a client between fighting to keep your creative time, but also servicing the client and enabling their project to keep on track and the program to run smoothly is a very sort of fine design balancing act. But I think it's important to fight for your time to be creative because that's one of the things that a client is paying you for.
- [63:38]
Nicole Salveson
And you're only going to be a better designer for them if you're given it.
- [63:42]
Mary Graham
Yeah, but it is hard when you've got WhatsApps pinging at you all day long from clients and builders and everybody.
- [63:49]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. The form of communication seems to require the immediate response. I mean, we joked at the beginning of the conversation about fax machines and.
- [63:59]
Mary Graham
Well, now I'm thinking quite fondly of them. Having said, I'm terrified by the dial tone.
- [64:05]
Dennis Scully
Wait a sec now.
- [64:06]
Mary Graham
I long for the dulcet tones of the fax machine.
- [64:10]
Nicole Salveson
It's funny, actually, we, you know, something that was so part of our creative process in the early days of our careers was sitting around a table with books and looking through them and gaining inspiration from other projects or, you know, or even books that weren't necessarily interiors, books, you know, just other things to create. That first step on a project. And we've really brought it back to that, as in the office now and really trying to make the team sit down and we have a, you know, a launch off meeting for every project. And like, let's just sort of get the juices flowing and think about. Because we also to want, we go back to this point of there being an aesthetic or a thread running through the project, but actually we have to be thinking, you know, right, who is this client? Who is this project? What is appropriate, what is the house, you know, what is it saying to us? And let's start pulling together some ideas and then, you know, and then we can then come back with those ideas to where it will feel most comfortable. But I think you've got to look outside that box. And I think that disappeared for such a long time. It's quite alien to some of our younger.
- [65:20]
Mary Graham
You've got to step away from the community computer, you know, and. And as much as something like Pinterest is a really useful tool in many ways for work and Instagram, there's an algorithm, so they're feeding you. It's not creative because you're just being fed the same stuff.
- [65:35]
Nicole Salveson
And it will only ever take you.
- [65:37]
Mary Graham
Exactly. Will only ever take you to a place that you sort of want to go to anyway. So to get out from behind your desk, go to a design center, to Pimlico Road, to wherever, look at books, do those things. You're then confronted with things that you weren't already expecting to see. And I think that's so important. But again, it goes back to this idea of immediacy and demand and speed. It can be very hard to step away from your computer because that's where the work is happening and people are asking for things. So you really have to consciously carve out that time to either look at a book or take yourself out to showrooms and shops and galleries and music museums and things like that and kind of reconnect with inspiration that isn't being fed to you.
- [66:21]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm thrilled to get to speak with you both and I'm so excited that you're coming to the US in an even bigger way in the year ahead. And I'm eager to hear what else you learn from this fabulous consultant that you've hired and what the new business plan is going to look like. But it sounds like lots of exciting things for people, so. And congratulations on the book.
- [66:45]
Mary Graham
Thank you, Dennis.
- [66:46]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. And everything that's happening for you.
- [66:47]
Mary Graham
Thank you.
- [66:48]
Nicole Salveson
Yeah, I think it's been, it's, you know, bearing in mind we've been reflecting on what a process it has been doing the book as part of sort of rounding out our stage of our career and then, you know, now doing this podcast. It all feels like part of that as well. So thank you so much for having us.
- [67:04]
Mary Graham
We've always been a huge fan of the show and we really don't have anything like this in the uk, so we're very grateful that you've let us Brits in on the act. So thank you.
- [67:14]
Dennis Scully
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the POM, drop us a line at podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.