← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
Studio Dearborn's Sarah Robertson creates kitchens that light people up
01:08:47
The celebrated kitchen designer shares the story of her career
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- [00:04]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is kitchen designer Sarah Robertson. Though she was drawn to design from an early age, Robertson took a more practical route, at first earning an MBA from Northwestern and then working as a consultant at McKinsey and Company. But eventually her creative side won out. After purchasing properties and renovating historic homes in Chicago's Wicker park neighborhood with her mother, she left consulting behind and launched Studio Dearborn. Since then, Robertson has built a reputation for kitchens that are as functional as they are beautiful, earning recognition as both an award winning designer and a thoughtful voice in the industry. I spoke with Sarah and her son Owen, who recently became Studio Dearborn's second employee from the garage studio of their Mamaroneck, New York home, about her roundabout path to design the Amish cabinet makers she can't live without and the organizational ethos that guides her. This podcast is sponsored by Krypton Home Fabric. Famous for its luxury indoor performance fabrics, Crypton revolutionized the category 30 years ago by creating beautiful, easy to clean upholstery fabrics for interiors. Today, Crypton provides fabrics that meet the conscientious considerations of designers offering performance upholstery that's beautifully designed and responsibly made, with many fabrics made right here in the US Listeners are invited to click on the Our fabric tab on krypton.com to find a fun test kit that also makes for a great client presentation tool. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta at Ernesta. Great design starts from the ground up. Created to make finding the right custom size rug easier, their thoughtfully curated materials and styles reach your door in as little as two weeks. From their new coastal collection to rugs made with families in mind, Ernesta has everything you need. And through Ernesta's trade program, you'll also gain the necessary tools and support to move your project forward with confidence. Become a member today@ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh and now on with the show. We should describe for people before we even jump in. We should where are we, Sarah? Where is this that we are recording this conversation?
- [02:57]
B
Yeah, so we're so fortunate to have had you come to us today.
- [03:01]
A
Dennis made a house call and we're
- [03:04]
B
here in our studio. It's just in Mama, our converted garage which kind of came into our lives in 2022. It was time for me to have my own space and all the magic happens here. So we have client meetings. We connect to the screen behind Owen there. When we're sometimes. Sometimes, yeah, when we're working through plans with clients, we'll sit down and. Yeah, I mean, we'll have some very long working sessions out here, bring in lunch and, you know, crank through a lot of decisions. So it's been a fantastic space.
- [03:43]
A
Yeah. What I wanted to do. Sarah, before we, before we get into all of the aspects of the business and everything that you've built, you and I were having a conversation earlier about the fact that you took a very different path into this industry, but a path that seems to make absolute sense when you put the pieces together of everything that you were doing and what it revealed about who you are and how you come at the world. And I wonder if you could take us through a little bit of your history and some of what you did before you came into the world of design and kitchens.
- [04:26]
B
I remember as a four year old sitting in my preschool and looking at the walls and thinking that this lunchroom area would be so much more just welcoming and hospitable if they painted the walls a different color. And so fast forward there. And I went about painting my own house, just every single room. That was the only tool I was given. And so that was my toolkit. Try to transform my own parents home as I was growing up. So there were signs that I had this just sort of innate interest in interior design. But I decided that a more practical approach to my career would be to go to law school. So I denied myself the fun of going into interior design for a long time and pursued, you know, went to undergraduate at Northwestern, which wonderful school, and planned on going to law school. I worked as a paralegal, going through business school at the same time. Met my husband at night school business at Kellogg, and from there went down this journey of business consulting. So I went to McKinsey right out of business school and immediately realized this wasn't what I wanted to be doing. It was so hard. But interestingly enough, so kind of in parallel to all of this, I started renovating properties right out of college. So kind of rolling back to, you know, when my parents divorced when I was 16. So my mother was a schoolteacher. Okay. My dad was advertising executive, but my mother was also this very kind of creative, entrepreneurial type who, you know, she was scrappy and, you know, found ways to make a living and she saw an opportunity. She wasn't teaching anymore. We sold our home in Barrington and we moved into the city. And a friend of hers was in the process of kind of buying up properties in Wicker park. And they were, you know, for $3,000, $5,000, you could get an empty lot. And she got into the business of purchasing these properties, and I kind of hopped on board. I was like, that looks like fun, right? I mean, the architecture, the Victorian architecture in Wicker park, it was just like nothing we'd seen, and just all of these homes just, like, begging to be restored. So I got onto that. I started, you know, I worked for her initially. I eventually moved over and was working for myself and my own projects. I remember there was one evening when the whole crew was getting together from McKinsey, and they called me, they said, can you come out for drinks? And I was literally, like, in the bathroom laying tile on, like, a Friday night for this rental property that I was, like, restoring. Like, I'm kind of busy right now, so lots of DIYing in there. So at a certain point in corporate life, you know, several years into it, I just said, I can't do this anymore. Sat down and took an inventory of what I wanted to do. And I said, you know, let's. I'm going to make a break from this and go back to renovating properties. So renovated several rental properties, became a landlord, had a lot of tenants.
- [07:59]
A
Oh, my goodness. Really?
- [08:00]
B
Yeah. So, you know, taking care of tenants, and then moved over to starting to do new construction. And then we got hit by the recession, so we were building in Greenwich. We had just built these gorgeous condos. Recession hit, we couldn't sell them, rented them, and that was fun. And back to my. My life as a landlord. But this time, it's a luxury landlord, which is very different thing. In between all of that, I decided to host a party because I had put so much effort into building these condos. I said, you know, I just want to have fun in one of these spaces. Let's use it as a party space. So we did an art installation. A friend of mine is an artist, and we installed her art. We had a whole bunch of friends come up, and one of those friends took a look around the kitchens, and she said, you know, I love your kitchens. I want you to do my mother's kitchen. And I said, no.
- [08:58]
A
Like, you know, I'm not a kitchen person.
- [09:02]
B
I was like, I don't work for other people.
- [09:03]
A
Million things going on. I'm a landlord.
- [09:06]
B
Right. I know.
- [09:07]
C
I had.
- [09:08]
B
Certainly had plenty of things going on. I had two. Two kids under the age of six, you know, and I said, no. And the no turned Into a. Yes. Is that so often happens? It was such a wonderful experience working with her mom. I had no idea that working with clients could be that much fun. And it was a lovely breath of fresh air to not be paying for everything myself. Yeah. So that project turned into another project for friends. Turned into another project. And I said to my friends, I said, does this mean I'm printing business cards now? And there it was. Yeah.
- [09:49]
A
And when that person saw your personal kitchen, what jumped out? What had you incorporated in that kitchen? What had you done that made it stand out from what I assume she had seen before?
- [10:05]
B
Yeah, that is such a good question. I think it was a combination of the quality of the millwork. We had really focused on architectural elements in this. In these particular condos that we built up in Greenwich that we wanted it to feel Georgian, So we were looking for Georgian Revival. Look, she was probably, to a certain degree, reacting to that. We'd focused, you know, really hard, of course, on the layout was not a huge space. So there was also a lot of attention to making the layout really work. Right. And I think, yeah, probably over investing in terms of time and attention is kind of what I do for a living.
- [10:46]
A
That turns out to be the skill that you have.
- [10:49]
B
Turns out to be my superpower. So. Yeah, so I think it was all of that. And, you know, this is a very dear friend, and I think she. She's the sort of person who sees more than. Than the next step. She sees it like a chess game, several steps ahead. And I think she saw that I had potential and, you know, was like, let's push Sarah in this direction, too, so.
- [11:17]
A
And you were willing to be pushed, and you said, sure, let's do this. Let's get business cards.
- [11:22]
B
I figured, what's the risk? Yeah, right, right. And the beautiful thing is I had this relationship with our cabinet builders or our Amish builders, and so I had fortunately met them, and they were who I was working with when we were in the construction business. So I felt like I had a leg up because had such a strong start with working with them.
- [11:54]
A
And it seems like you had a very specific sort of organizational notion about the kitchen as well that I imagine became a bit of a signature for you and what you were able to provide.
- [12:06]
B
Yeah. And, you know, my focus on what's going on inside the cabinets is really an outgrowth of. It's outgrowth of a couple things. I mean, first of all, you know, I've always really appreciated efficiency in so many aspects of life. And so, you know, my Sense is if you're buying a cabinet and you're building a cabinet, you want to use that cabinet for as much as you possibly can. So there's that element to it, but it's also about the efficiency of your routine and your day. So I love how it plays into just making a space that's more functional and gets you through the cooking process in a way with the least amount of resistance. Right. I mean, you want to enjoy what you're doing. You don't want to be struggling to find things. But what I also saw all of what's going on inside the cabinets as an opportunity to make the kitchen space more of a living space. Like, the more cabinets I think you take away, the more you can open up the windows and add artwork and open up your doorways and make the space feel more connected, make it feel more like a true living space. And I think that really starts with reducing the numbers of cabinets and making them really work hard. So another one of my main focuses is really how to make the kitchen relate back to the architecture of the home. That's a huge priority for me. And you can't do that without making custom profiles. And you need to have more than, like, three different crown moldings. And I'll be up on a ladder and evaluating, you know, how. How are the beams made in this old house? Because we want to bring that exact beam and crown molding combination into the kitchen, you know, to make it feel like it was always there, and then
- [14:06]
C
reference that on the like of the island and.
- [14:10]
B
Yeah, exactly. Bringing. Bringing that those themes through is what makes a kitchen feel like it really belongs in a space in a home. And that leads to, hopefully, that kitchen still, like, feels like it belongs there in 20 years.
- [14:26]
A
So when does. So you get the business cards, you're off and running. You're. You're doing kitchens. When does the business. When do people start to really learn about you, discover you. When does. When does business really, really start to happen?
- [14:39]
B
So there were a few kind of pivotal moments I think I learned about Houzz. So the Houzz platform was tremendous in terms of my. My building. My building awareness of the business. I also, I joined the NKBA and, you know, entered their contest. I think we won the best kitchen design with the NKBA's annual contest three times, which was very exciting, and, you know, and also kind of put me on the roadmap, you know, with the. With the NKBA folks. And so they started and what role.
- [15:16]
A
And we should explain the National Kitchen and Bath association and what. What role does the NKBA play in the. In the kitchen world? What does that association focus on or make their mission?
- [15:28]
B
It was. I mean, it opened up a lot of doors in ways that I never would have anticipated. The nkba, the kbis, gives you the opportunity to connect with people who are doing the same thing that you are, and that's really key. And I found that out when I started meeting people on actually getting out and understanding how to network and talk about how do we Bill and what do margins look like for you? And all of these really core questions that you're running a business on your own. You don't necessarily have access to what are best practices.
- [16:04]
A
Yeah. And that's part of what. What I'm trying to understand in terms of even how the kitchen designer works relative to the rest of the project. And who typically brings you into a project? Are you being brought in by the homeowner or the client? Are you being brought in by the designer or the architect? And is there. So often we talk about the timing of all of these different people being at the table is so important. Can't have a whole series of discussions about the house without bringing the kitchen person in and really talking about what needs to happen there.
- [16:44]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's such an interesting dynamic. And I get this question a lot, actually, from interior designers who haven't worked with kitchen designers. It's sort of like, yeah, how do you get brought in? How do you collaborate? And, you know, the answer is, I'll be brought in by the homeowner. Sometimes I'm like the first person on the job, you know, before they even have permits, before they even have an architect, they'll bring me in just because they've seen me on Instagram or wherever. But the key is, obviously, that you want to work as a team. And so we will typically have, whether it's weekly meetings or whatever it takes for us to all be talking about what we want these spaces to look like and how they need to all speak to one another. And I think that is the challenge as a kitchen designer, when you're just responsible for this one space. But that one space is so important and so complex that there is kind of overflow and impact on, you know, everyone on the team. Right.
- [17:47]
C
And it also. It ties into your ethos as a designer.
- [17:51]
B
Right.
- [17:52]
C
Because you have a lot of expertise in the kitchen. But that doesn't mean that whenever someone walks into a kitchen that you've done that, it necessarily screams Sarah Robertson to this kitchen. Right. The way it would if, you know, maybe some other designer or another brand had done the cabinets. Right. So it's the willingness to kind of play a part in the goal of designing the whole home if the whole home is being done.
- [18:16]
B
Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up, Owen, because I think that is kind of the crux of it, is that, you know, the big brands oftentimes have. They do have a look, and I think that's different for me. I think I ideally love to see my kitchens blend in with the home. I want them to feel, you know, very much a part of the personality of the homeowner and the personality of the home itself. So I don't mind that we're creating new millwork profiles, and I don't mind that. Yeah, we have to come up with new finishes and new door styles and, you know, because that's kind of all naturally part of the process.
- [18:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. So you were. You were telling us that Houzz played an important role in the beginning, and being the number one kitchen designer on Houzz was important to you. And. And then that shifted a little bit, and I'm imagining other things became more important. So tell me about that.
- [19:11]
B
Yeah, I mean, it was. Obviously, social media has been. Is. Is always a moving target, and some friends of mine started talking about Instagram and how they were, you know, using it for inspiration while they're standing in line at the grocery store checkout.
- [19:26]
C
Yeah, so did your son.
- [19:27]
A
Yeah, exactly. Owen.
- [19:30]
B
Yeah. Owen was on the platform, and we decided to go ahead and set up an account. I remember when I hit a thousand followers, I was so excited, and at some point, I actually started trying to put together good content and initially very focused on photographs. But along came 2020, and we were all home, including the kids, and TikTok was booming, and we kind of. Owen and I just sort of decided, well, let's. Let's try to make some. Some video content. I think I told you that we were inspired by a very early TikTok that house beautiful did of one of my kitchens. Oh, right.
- [20:15]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:15]
B
So they had. They had come in, done some filming for a YouTube series and decided to. They put together a video and put it up on TikTok. And, you know, I said, well, shoot. You know, you, like, took my. Like took my project and, like, put it on your TikTok. And I was like, wait a second. This is social media. Like, we need to get on this because, you know, we can do this, too. So we jumped on that, put it Together for. Yeah, a bunch of my kitchens, kind of following the theme of, you know, five things about this kitchen that just make sense. And it was a huge hit. So we took that, and then along came reels and pulled. Essentially, I kind of pulled myself off of TikTok at that point and felt like reels, Instagram in general reels in particular, were actually bringing in real client leads. We've done things all the way out on the west coast now, and, you know, it's given us the ability to reach people in a way that, you know, a small business owner like myself just wouldn't have otherwise. So.
- [21:17]
A
Well, and as we've talked about before, Instagram and social in general can create the illusion of scale and size. And people see your tremendous following and might have no idea that your operation is relatively small, I would say, in that most of the key players are right here in the garage with us right now. So, yeah, let's talk about that.
- [21:45]
B
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think when I explain to people who reach out on Instagram that we really are, you know, I've been a solo operation basically for all these years. I mean, people kind of can't believe did make sense to run my business that way. You know, I was raising two kids, and obviously that's the priority. But, you know, running a business on the side meant having to have a lot of flexibility, and it can be hard to have a lot of flexibility when you have employees. So kind of ran with it and kept it that way until.
- [22:20]
A
Until son Owen steps in. Tell us.
- [22:23]
C
So we're now at two employees. We're not at the Magic Five that. That gets referenced a lot on the podcast.
- [22:29]
B
Exactly.
- [22:29]
C
If you include the Corgis, we're at 4, so we're almost there. So I graduated from school in May. I graduated from college, and after graduating from school, I did two degrees. I got one in finance, and I got one in environmental studies. And I was like, well, mom, it's literally just you, and you've got such a huge brand that I feel like you can be capitalizing on, like, why don't I try to help you out with that? And she was like, okay, sure. So we took a trial run at it, and thankfully, we have a really good dynamic as parent and kid, which is I'm extremely grateful for. A lot of people come up to me when I tell them that I'm working with my mom, and they're like, you're so, so lucky that that's the case. Yeah, I kind of joined from having this finance background you know, I had done internships with, you know, the likes of private equity firms and investment banks and venture capital firms. So that was kind of my background, you know, pitching businesses and thinking about how you can scale them and monetize them. Right. So I was like, well, mom, I want to do this with you. And then I joined and I was the second employee of two. And so obviously it's grown in scope, right?
- [23:48]
B
Yeah.
- [23:48]
A
I mean, double the size of the business.
- [23:50]
C
Way to go.
- [23:51]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [23:51]
C
And now obviously I'm not just doing the finance side of things. I am totally enjoying the design side. And that's something that I'm kind of trying to grow my knowledge base on. And many people have been very patient with me in regards to that.
- [24:15]
A
We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. If there's one thing we've all experienced, it's the difficulty of finding the right rug. From awkward sizing to not quite right colors, the discovery of a rug that works in your client's space can be tricky, or at least it used to be. With Ernesta, you get custom sized rugs delivered in as little as two weeks. And as a trade member, the unlimited samples you receive ensure that you and your clients will find just the right color and material as well. Become an Ernesta trade member today to explore the full assortment, receive dedicated one on one support, and gain access to preferred pricing. To learn more, Visit Ernesta. That's ernesta.com boh and now back to the show. And have you just been absorbing that all along? Have you been watching what mom was doing and just say, oh, I get this, I understand this probably to an
- [25:23]
C
extent, if I'm going to be honest. It has been more so from the business angle, a large part of our business, which is our, our consultation angle. And there have been a couple times where I've been, mom, you need to be charging way more for what you do. And you know, there were a couple times where she was getting ready to submit, you know, final presentations with regards to price for these clients. I'm like, you're not charging enough. So that's.
- [25:52]
A
And how did you have a sense of that when you said you're not charging enough? What was your perspective on that?
- [25:58]
B
Partly the amount of time I was spending on these projects.
- [26:03]
C
It was that. And I knew the work that she was doing was special. I knew it was incredibly detailed. And the amount of time that she spends talking and texting to these clients is just simply ridiculous. I'm like, you need to be charging way More for what it is.
- [26:19]
A
Well, so to that point, were you charging hourly so that you were able to at least charge for all of those texts and calls and all of that, or was there just a design fee or was there an overall price? I mean, tell me how it was working.
- [26:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, it was a design fee and then markup on cabinets, and that's really still what it. What it is. But yeah, Owen and I are both in the. In the process of kind of working together to figure out if there's a more nuanced approach and figuring out how, you know, do we put a cap on those hours associated with the design fees, and if so, what does that look like?
- [26:55]
A
And are you. And are you tracking your. I mean, as a paralegal, you always had to track your time, and so did you.
- [27:01]
B
Such a good point that I am. I was so wired for, for keeping track of hours, and I've talked to Owen about that, and no, of course I'm not keeping track of my hours. I hated it.
- [27:13]
A
Well, and so many designers tell me that, that they hate that part of it. They don't want to be tracking their hours. But at the same time, that's just money going out the door if you're, if you're not.
- [27:22]
B
Yes. And. And, you know, part of you and I have talked, you know, a lot about being adhd. Part of what you have going on when you're ADHD is you are switching what you're doing constantly. Right. You're switching from task to task. So how do you bill for 1 minute and 5 minute increments? But that's kind of what your whole day looks like. And I think the ADHD brain just feeds on that. So it's partly you need to kind of take a step back and redesign the way you work, to focus in bigger chunks of time and not allow yourself to get distracted. But we're kind of trying to do a hybrid and be more focused on doing those sorts of chunks of work that are dedicated to a specific project, maybe on a half a day basis, and it's more billable.
- [28:07]
A
And I ask in part, and I want to come back to the consulting part, Owen, because often when we talk about working with clients and asking them what they really want, it's challenging for clients who don't often have the language to articulate what they want. And I would imagine that's exponentially more when it comes to the specifics of what they want in a kitchen, unless they're highly engaged cooks, chefs that really know exactly what they need and what they want. But if they aren't, do they have the ability to tell you that in, in words that make sense?
- [28:47]
B
Well, I think, you know, over, over the years, I've been able to figure out how to kind of translate what it is that people are telling me into, you know, what, what I think are going to be good solutions for them. I think the harder part is for people to imagine the, the architectural sorts of details that we can bring in the millwork. And I found that a really nice approach with clients is to really focus on the function of the kitchen first and get all of that kind of figured out, because that's hard enough to get through that discussion, which is. Can often be, you know, several meetings worth, but then to start to kind of play with architectural ideas. Because I think once you're sort of grounded in like, okay, I feel comfortable now that we're going to have a functioning kitchen, then I think clients are more comfortable sort of starting to nuance these aesthetic details, whereas if you'd sort of hit them with that up front, I think it's a little bit too much. It can be overwhelming because they still don't feel like, you know, the basis of the functioning aspect of it is figured out. So we kind of approach the space first, figuring out all the changes that we might want to make to the space and then the functionality and then get into the kind of the details. So it's iterative and time consuming.
- [30:04]
C
Yeah. And to your point, Dennis, I think it's a, it's a combination of repetition. I mean, the fact that you, mom, have done this so many times in your career, you are really good at sussing out what is going to be the best for clients. And then it goes back to the fact that we spend so much time on each project. Right. For better or for worse, you're able to end up with the right solution at the end of the day, even if it takes a couple refinements.
- [30:29]
B
Yeah. And I think I would just add to that. It's been very interesting on the consulting side to see when people come into a consultation, they are often really already quite educated in terms of what they want in terms of a layout. Even the cabinetry.
- [30:45]
C
Well, they think they are.
- [30:47]
B
Well, it's a starting point, though, and I see a huge difference in where people are now as opposed to three or four years ago. So people are coming into this now with more knowledge about how the space is going to work, and it gives it a huge leg up.
- [31:04]
A
We weren't focused on functionality before, but we were just. We were just sort of creating kitchens that looked pretty and really didn't serve us well in the past. You can say it, Sarah.
- [31:14]
B
It was. I think it was different. Okay. And I think, you know, obviously the functionality of the space has changed so much over the decades. Decades ago, it was just a utilitarian space. It wasn't even necessarily used by the homeowner. A lot of times there were staff. Right. So it just. It needed to function. And there was really no aesthetic aspect to it. There was no socializing aspect. Roll forward to, you know, what would you say, 60s, 70s, when you started seeing, like, real kitchen cabinetry. It probably even came about a little earlier than that. And then it became a social space. Right. So things changed after the war, and homeowners were now cooking in the kitchens themselves, and it became sort of the hub of the home. And I think that the aesthetics kind of kind of jumped to the forefront. And whereas everyone was having to sort of adapt furniture, I think this whole look of having a cohesive cabinetry style in the kitchen felt really luxurious. Everything matched. You know, you'd have kind of wall to wall cabinets, and I think. So that became sort of this sign of sort of the luxury modern kitchen. And now we're all pushing back against that. We wanted to feel individual. Right. You know, we're bringing back freestanding pieces into the kitchen, you know, and we're bringing back, you know, non matching finishes and so much more so than ever before. Right. Used to be we had sort of the accent Island. Right. For 20 years there. And now it's just, you know, people are really getting creative. So it's hard work coming up with,
- [32:56]
A
you know, a creative to how to make that really function.
- [32:58]
B
Designing it. Yes. So the design of that, from an aesthetic standpoint is hard work. And also from a functional standpoint. Yeah. To your point, trying to make a hardworking kitchen island look like a table. Well, and it seems it's challenging.
- [33:15]
A
Yeah. And to your point, there was this moment that suddenly the kitchen became this communal room, but then it also became this statement room. I was talking with Christopher Peacock not too long ago, and he was sort of sharing with me, hilariously, that he's got male clients, especially, who love to boast about how much they spend on their marble slab. Oh, your marble slab was only 100,000. Well, mine was 150,000. And there was, like this competitiveness around who's got more marble in there and how much they're spending on it. When did all of that happen? When did people get so excited about that.
- [33:53]
B
Oh, gosh, truly. Historically, it probably started 80s 90s, but I honestly think. I think Christopher Peacock probably had a lot to do with that. Right. In terms of bringing the kitchen really to the forefront of people's awareness of what is a luxury household. Right. So we have luxury appliances now, and just these. These things that people covet, you know, in the same way that they. They covet luxury cars in the garage. So, yeah, it's not as much my mindset, I have to admit.
- [34:29]
A
My clients not competing over how much they're spending on their slab.
- [34:33]
B
Yeah. I mean, most of my clients for. For whatever reason are. Are mindful of the spend. They will do it. But it's. I think that there's probably a certain type of client that comes to me that's looking for things that are sort of this hybrid of a true focus on function and aesthetics. So I kind of tend to focus on it as the functionality is the luxury in my world. So I like to start with my clients and just really thinking about, let's walk through your imaginary kitchen, and let's walk through how you're going to use each space and thinking very hard about what we call the anchor zones, which is the cleanup area and the cooking and your refrigeration and your prep zone and how all of those areas work together. And so we sort of start with that, and, like, let's make absolutely sure that these things, they're exactly where they are optimized. Right. I mean, we can't always get what we want, especially in renovations, but even in new construction, we're having to make compromises, but we're going to make. Make the best we can in terms of this layout. Sometimes that involves moving things. Windows, doorways, you know, so. So we try to be in touch with the architect team, like, very early on, just say, can we move things if.
- [35:55]
A
By the way, we love your design, but also we're planning to move a few things.
- [35:59]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I mean, more often than not, they're lovely about it. They work very closely to us. We try to make. We try to. No, it's an important process. Right. I mean, we need to have that.
- [36:16]
A
Those are diplomatic skills being brought to.
- [36:19]
B
Yeah. And we need to be able to have that flexibility in order to optimize whether a cabinet fits in a corner or not. Can just make or break the whole design. So sort of once we're through that and we lay out that. We lay out the functionality zones, then we'll kind of go through and kind of break down Everything that goes into each one of those. But it's a lot of it. There's a lot of kind of imagining yourself in the space and kind of role playing. And that's what we'll do, Both in the 3D drawing process as well as just working off the floor plans. But it takes work and it is iterative and it's exhausting. I have this really fun vignette story of a client many years ago, and we had been working for probably two hours working on designing her kitchen, and her husband called and, you know, she took a quick break to pick up the call and she's like, yeah, I'm here with Sarah. We're working on the kitchen design. And I have such a headache.
- [37:20]
C
Oh my God.
- [37:23]
B
And it just killed me. And at that point I realized Sarah's
- [37:27]
A
giving me such a headache, basically is what she's saying. I'm migraine from the frosting.
- [37:31]
B
She's so annoying, basically what she's saying. And you know, this same client said to me at the end of this whole process, she said, sarah, I was telling her, you know, oh my gosh, aren't these cabinets wonderful? And we were admiring how lovely, beautifully they're made and so on. She said, sarah, I just want you to know that I love the cabinets, but the reason I hired you was for you. And I had never had anyone say that to me before. And this is the woman who I gave this migraine headache to, right? And I realized, like, you know what, I need to place more value in that. And that's been a lifelong journey, right? But we're still working on it, right? But to realize that the luxury is in this process of getting to understand your client and their needs and every client's going to be different.
- [38:21]
C
And it goes beyond the primary, right? It's not just the refrigeration, the cooking, you know, this stuff that everyone has, but it's understanding what about the client's lifestyle is totally unique, right? And then having to incorporate that, that into what happens for everyone, which is how it gets so personal and iterative. Because we've had clients who have done just a bar zone for ice cream and coffee, right? And that is not something you go into a project expecting to do.
- [38:55]
B
Right?
- [38:56]
C
But over time, as you learn what is important for each person, you have to incorporate that into your design. And that's what makes it such like a drawn out process.
- [39:05]
A
Well, and that seems to be the opportunity for delight. Did you know that I could create a space for you for your ice cream and coffee? Once I get to know you that well and realize that's important, and then they're just blown away. What I can have this special area that's all my own for. I mean, because again, I imagine that clients can't even begin to understand what you could make possible for them if you knew that was a desire that they had.
- [39:36]
B
Right, right. And I mean, and that's the part of the process that just gives you chills when you realize that, like, oh, my gosh, because we moved the freezer to this area, now we have the opportunity to build someone something amazing like a beautiful china cabinet or something where their only vision was that the freezer had to sit there. So just these moments of realization just, you know, make it all, like, so special when you realize that you can, yeah, tailor something that they couldn't have even imagined, but it's, you know, hopefully going to be part of the kitchen that they're interacting with daily. It just feels special. That takes, you know, a considerable process to kind of get to know the client and see what they're willing to do, you know, what they're. What they're brave enough to do and where we kind of push them out of their comfort zone.
- [40:26]
A
And so what's the bravery element? So what's the risk or the leap that they have to take or that you are trying to push them to take?
- [40:34]
B
Yeah, it can take so many forms. Whether it's a new design of something that we've never done before. We're working on an island right now that is a complete departure, which is completely based on furniture references. So getting someone to have comfort in that, even though they've never seen it before on Pinterest or Instagram. Or it could be like what Owen was describing, where we decide that maybe we don't need a full size freezer because this person doesn't have much of anything other than ice cream in their freezer. So why would we do that? And those decisions can be scary, especially when people are thinking about resale.
- [41:14]
C
A lot of clients, when we pitch these really personalized things, are very concerned about resale value. I mean, it's a correlation versus causation question. But a lot of what we've seen is, you know, when houses do go to sale, it's definitely not. It's not a damper on the price.
- [41:32]
A
You know, take me back, Owen, to the consulting side of the business and what that has become or what you imagine that becoming more of.
- [41:39]
C
It's been such a great aspect of our business because I think it really kind of, you know, we can only take on like maximum five projects per year, but because of, you know, the reach that mom has developed, there are just such a number of people that want a product from her. So we are able to create a lot of value for these people in a very short amount of time. And I think that really touches on the fact that you have created mom in such a niche for yourself in terms of not only really understanding how a kitchen should be laid out, but then furthermore, understanding what the dimensions of every single cabinet should be and what should go into each of them. And then furthermore, being able to touch on the finishes and the aesthetics. And we are usually able to deliver all three of those things to someone who hops on a call with us.
- [42:36]
A
Can you accomplish much in a quick hour long consultation? Or how long do you end up having these sessions for? And do they turn into clients?
- [42:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, all of the above. So I will do 45 minutes or 90 minute calls and then we'll do packs of three calls. They've certainly turned into clients. I mean, very often we like to actually start any potential studio client. So studio client is someone where we do the whole soup to nuts, cabinets, everything. So we'd like to start the studio clients with a consultation because it's also a great way to see how we work together. Right.
- [43:16]
C
Test out the relationship.
- [43:17]
B
Yeah. In some cases we will actually be working with the architectural firms will be on the call with us. Sometimes interior designers are on the call. Sometimes even kitchen designers are on the calls.
- [43:30]
C
Yeah, that's always fun.
- [43:32]
A
What do you mean other kitchen designers who want to hear from the master about what we do?
- [43:37]
B
Well, it wasn't always their idea to bring me in.
- [43:40]
A
Got it. Okay.
- [43:40]
B
But I have to say, I mean, I'm sure you'd love to hear that there's been drama. I want to hear some of this. Because you love the drama. Yes, but there hasn't been that. True.
- [43:49]
A
Names.
- [43:49]
B
Are there names of people?
- [43:51]
A
I mean, come on.
- [43:52]
B
No, I mean, it's. Honestly, it's fun because we can bounce ideas off of one another. It's a fresh project for me. I get to be that fresh pair of eyes. I'll spot things that, you know, they just didn't think of because they'd been looking at it for so long. Right. So, yeah, it's been such a journey to see what the value that we can add in like 45 minutes. So, yeah, yesterday we cranked through one where, you know, you start with layout and then 15 minutes later we're going through the functionality of the cabinets. You know, we're set on the layout now. Let's go through cabinet by cabinet. Let's talk about what those cabinets are going to look like. And then 15 minutes later, we might bounce and do color combinations. And it's just, it is rapid fire. And, you know, we prefer to have more than 45 minutes. But having O in there has really been a game changer because, yeah, I can focus on the call and then he can focus on the follow up, which allows me to move over back over to the studio projects and that, you know, side of the work and what we have going on that day.
- [45:04]
A
We're taking a quick break to remind you about Krypton. Krypton Home indoor performance fabric is easy to find, sample, and specify a trusted partner to some of the top names in design. Krypton's beautiful indoor performance fabrics can be found at Pindler, Schumacher Fourhands, and Row, to name a few, as well as through retail furniture trade programs such as the newly relaunched our house trade program. For inspiration and design news, follow Krypton on Instagram at Krypton Fabric. And now back to the show. So tell me, help me understand the. So the profitability side of a kitchen. So what can go wrong that suddenly makes this an unprofitable project for you? Is it that you're spending way too much time with this client? Are they revising things over and over again and you. And you haven't built enough of that cost structure into it? Often that's the case with designers. They haven't built in all of that extra time.
- [46:13]
B
Right. I think it is when projects get really drawn out, which so often happens with renovations. Right. And it's, you know, no fault of mine, but, you know, they are going through these iterations of what's going to work for them for the renovation. They get it all priced. They realize they have to redesign, which in some cases means the kitchen now is going to get redesigned and we're starting over. And also just the fact that as these projects go on and on, I mean, all designers know this, that the decisions, it's not like you just sort of stick a pin in it and walk away for six months while they're working on the architectural drawings or something. They're, you know, constantly churning and saying, well, you know, what if we do this, maybe we make these changes. So there's ongoing work. So the more time you have, the more work there is. But it's usually for me, because I love the millwork. It is we Will spend a lot of time working out details. And then when the pricing comes through for that, you realize that, or the client realizes that they didn't really realize how much of an impact that was going to have on pricing. And then we're sort of figuring out, is there a way that do we need to value engineer this? But then we're going to take away some of the special aspects. So we have the basis now to just basically give people a better heads up in terms of what that's going to look like up front and so that people can understand what millwork looks like and what the pricing is going to look like. I also find that I am often drawn into conversations that go well beyond the kitchen is another problem. And it's a problem. I mean, I love it. Right. I mean, I used to build houses, so of course I want to come and help you figure out the best location for the mill mud room. And if you need to move the mud room, I want to help you figure that out. But how am I getting paid for that? Right. So those hours do add up. And yeah, so it's managing for that. But also a lot of times clients become friends and then you want to help with all aspects.
- [48:22]
C
Sean Lowe talked about this. A lot of the value that we bring to clients is the fact that, that we are able to rearrange the layout and the floor plan. And yes, we were able to do it pretty quickly.
- [48:37]
A
Yeah.
- [48:38]
C
But that's still an extremely valuable thing. And just on a per hour basis. I mean, it's on our website, it's public. A 90 minute consult is $3,000. It's like we are not charging $2,000 an hour for our project.
- [48:50]
A
That would make Sean Lowe so happy, by the way.
- [48:53]
C
It's like we are just.
- [48:55]
A
It should be.
- [48:56]
C
We understand that.
- [48:57]
A
Here's my level of expertise. It's $3,000 for 90 minutes of my time.
- [49:01]
B
Yeah.
- [49:01]
C
Because we give you so much more than that.
- [49:02]
A
Yes.
- [49:03]
B
The consultations also just really do kind of skim off the cream of your high level ability to really add value, I think, to a project. And I think that's why I enjoy it so much. We get off that zoom. I'm like, wow, we really did a lot.
- [49:22]
C
Sean would probably tell us to charge 10, but.
- [49:24]
A
He probably would. He probably would. Probably.
- [49:27]
B
Yeah.
- [49:27]
A
It's not enough. Because that's. I think that's always his answer. That's not enough.
- [49:31]
B
Well, and Sean also brings up the fact that, you know, in different roles, our time is kind of more valuable and less Valuable. Right. And we have to kind of figure that piece of it out as well.
- [49:43]
A
It's a great point. And Owen's time versus your time was a great example.
- [49:47]
C
Absolutely right.
- [49:48]
B
But, you know, if you're standing around on the job site in a meeting, you know, is that as valuable as this high level design work? But as you know, keeping track of your hours is a pain enough. But then what type of hours? Right.
- [50:01]
A
Exactly. What kind of thing was I doing at that time? And it's so challenging.
- [50:05]
B
Yeah.
- [50:05]
A
Oh, and you mentioned you referenced this ethos around your mother's work. And I wonder, are there certain absolutes in a Dearborn kitchen? Are there certain things that you just insist are part of what someone is going to be getting? Is the concealed paper towel holder just an absolute that's gonna be. I mean, what are elements that are just. And part of why I ask that is understanding better what makes your kitchen stand out and why people seem to covet them in the way that they do.
- [50:46]
B
So for me, one thing, if we wanted to point to one thing that I value more than just about anything, it's natural life. So I'll go into every space and try to figure out, can we make the windows bigger? Which is of course not what people think they're hiring me for. They think they're hiring me for organization. But when.
- [51:07]
A
But you've come to learn that that's such an important element of what makes the kitchen feel the way it does.
- [51:13]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I am, you know, so driven myself by being, you know, in a space with natural light, which I discovered so many years ago when I was in an office space without a
- [51:25]
A
natural light, when McKinsey deprived her of natural light.
- [51:28]
B
Thank you.
- [51:28]
C
And gave her a smoking roommate.
- [51:30]
B
Yeah.
- [51:30]
C
Mind you.
- [51:33]
B
Right. A tiny little office with a roommate who smoked and no windows. And you realize there's something wrong with this picture. So, yeah, it's always been a huge focus of mine to make sure that people are getting natural light in their kitchens. And then as a natural, you know, outflow of that, we have to make sure that the cabinets are well organized. Right. Because we've just taken a few away. So that's kind of that first level of kind of thinking through the space, and then the next level is really going through, moving through that kitchen. You know, let's imagine that whole process. And so that is the piece of it that is non negotiable for me is that we have to go through that whole process with the client and really, really make sure that. That we've thought about all of these potential situations, these potential uses, and that it's just. Yeah. That it's going to function well for them.
- [52:28]
C
I need to add onto this as well. Mom. With this cabinet vendor who's been in business for a hundred years, she has come up with her Dearborn standard of what in addition to their base standard, needs to be included to bring it to our base standard. And. And that goes down to the level of detail, such as what do the shelf pins look like Traditionally they're going to be made of plastic or wood. And that's not acceptable for us. That's not acceptable for her. Ours are made entirely of brass. And when it comes down to layout and floor plan, 80% of our cabinets, if not more, have inserts. And that is a product of having fantastic manufacturing, but also a really thoughtful process in terms of how you lay that out.
- [53:14]
B
Yes. Summarize what Owen was saying. I think it's really about those furniture grade details. We really think about cabinetry's furniture.
- [53:23]
A
Yes.
- [53:23]
B
And like you were saying, my cabinet guys, honestly, they. I think they do love it. Cause it gives them these new challenges to kind of problem solve.
- [53:32]
A
Let's shift gears and let's talk about what's happening in the world of kitchen. So you mentioned you were just at kbiz and I mean, in sort of a lightning round kind of way, like, what are some of the things that are happening in kitchens today and how do you feel about them? A lot of tech and AI coming into the kitchen space. Does that make sense for you? How do you feel about that?
- [53:56]
B
Yeah, I'm not smart kitchen. Right. I mean, you know, I take a bit of that with a grain of salt.
- [54:06]
C
We like dumb kitchens.
- [54:07]
B
Yeah, we don't, you know.
- [54:09]
A
Yeah. I mean, a lot of designers like dumb homes, so. I mean. Yeah, I get it. How smart do you need your refrigerator to be?
- [54:16]
B
Right. I mean, we really like a paneled refrigerator. We think it can be really fun to get creative with the paneling. So, you know, if it has a screen on the front of it, that doesn't really work so well for us.
- [54:27]
A
Does it disappear?
- [54:28]
B
Because. Okay, it's got, yeah. You know, camera inside the refrigerator. Don't really feel a need for that. Styling the inside of your refrigerator too, that movement. What a funny trend. Oh, my God. So much fun looking at what people are doing, styling the refrigerators.
- [54:44]
A
But also.
- [54:44]
B
No, no but, no, no but I did just spend about a week reorganizing my pantry cabinet, I have to admit. But I think it comes down to one of those things that when the world feels a little bit out of control, you sort of turn to the things that you feel like you could control. And it was time for me to reorganize my pantry and I did not style it with flowers or turning celery into floral arrangements. Yeah, no, I'm not quite there. But I did get a lot of satisfaction out of tidying it up and decanting into jars and things of that nature. But yeah, I don't really see that as a major trend going forward.
- [55:29]
C
I mean, it's just not really our thing.
- [55:31]
B
Right.
- [55:32]
C
We tend to lean more traditional.
- [55:34]
B
Yeah.
- [55:35]
A
Right. So the smart component. Not important.
- [55:38]
B
I mean, we're sort of looking to the things that work for us.
- [55:41]
A
The design is going to be smart, but appliances don't need. Need to be.
- [55:45]
B
Yeah.
- [55:46]
A
I mean, not looking for companionship for your appliances. Right. And relationships and being able to talk back to them.
- [55:51]
C
No, they don't need to run check.
- [55:53]
B
Not at the moment. I mean. Yep. Potentially in the future, who can say? It depends on how nice they are. Yeah. Whether they say all the right things.
- [56:01]
A
How about gas versus induction? What's happening there? Is gas just going away and we need to accept it. Is that, Is that the deal or
- [56:08]
B
what's your sense that. You know, I think there's, there's been some really important research done lately on, you know, how much much toxins gas really does bring into the household and that I've. I've found that research to be pretty alarming and worth taking note of. And we are actually switching our range from gas to induction next week. My.
- [56:31]
A
Oh, so it's happening right now.
- [56:33]
B
Literally. It could have arrived today during this interview, but my new. Yeah, my new Fogger Milano range is going to arrive next week. It is. Not only is it induction, but it is. Is French culinary, just beautiful, decorative, custom color. I could not be more excited about it.
- [56:53]
A
I'll bet.
- [56:53]
B
So it combines the technology of induction and the beauty of old fashioned range.
- [57:00]
A
And what is the technology? What is so alluring about induction? What is so magical that the fans of induction.
- [57:07]
B
Oh, it's just easier to control. You don't have the heat or the toxins.
- [57:12]
C
Right, Right.
- [57:12]
B
Yeah, well, exactly. We kind of start with the toxin and go from there. But you don't, you don't have the heat while you're cooking, so you're not necessarily burning your hand over the flame, which it's kind of, you know, that tends to be. One of my great strong suits is to sort of singe my hand while I'm cooking things. I don't know why, but yeah. And it's easier. Easier to control. And, you know, I guess this is going to be a learning process for me too. But some of my clients have moved over to induction. They're really, really happy that they did. So I'm excited, excited to embrace the new technology, but I think that the free power chargers are really interesting in certain cases. Yeah. And I think that we'll continue to see that technology develop. And also he's working on making wireless appliances that will work with the free power unit. So that's some interesting technology to watch. We saw so much color, you know, kind of switching gears to like just. Just the amount of real, kind of retro saturated colors that we're seeing in the marketplace now, which I'm excited because maybe my clients will sort of stop or get beyond sort of the creamy kitchen with wood details.
- [58:27]
A
So is that sort of where so many clients are still stuck is in this sort of creamy.
- [58:32]
B
Yeah. Yes.
- [58:32]
A
Right. We were told we had to move away from the white kitchen. Right. The Carrera marble and all of that.
- [58:38]
B
So they went to cream.
- [58:39]
A
So they went to a big leap to cream. Right.
- [58:43]
B
Very brave.
- [58:43]
A
Okay. But I feel like you go to a show and they show you all this color, but then does it. Does it come to the client? Does the client say, oh, yes, I want that rich?
- [58:54]
C
I would say so a little bit more.
- [58:56]
B
So, like, not as much as we would like, but it's creeping in there. And I think the more. And the longer it's out there, the more comfortable people get with it. And I think they need to realize that it's not gonna hurt resale. And I don't know that you get tired of color any more than you get tired of all white, honestly. I mean, look at the color that we're surrounded by here in our studio, which is beautiful.
- [59:20]
A
I love this color.
- [59:21]
B
Thank you. So I hope people will get a little more out there with. With their color selections and realize that it can really. Yeah. Light them up, you know?
- [59:32]
A
Well, and we've talked about how the sort of notion of this English kitchen has been around forever. But I mean. And do people want that or are people still asking about that? That sort of un kitchen is the way we think of it here in
- [59:46]
B
the States more so than ever.
- [59:48]
A
Really?
- [59:49]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's been a really enduring trend, and I think it's going to continue for, are guessing probably another decade. I mean, the thing about it is that what are the trade offs of it really? I mean, it brings in this sense of charm, and it's welcoming and cozy. And what are the downsides? Right.
- [60:12]
A
Yeah, what are the downsides?
- [60:13]
B
Exactly. So I think the challenge as a designer, really, is to get all of the functionality, especially if you're talking about furniture style, you know, islands and that sort of thing, to try to get the storage into these kitchens. So that's the challenge. But what. Right.
- [60:30]
A
So if they have the. Right. So if they have the table and the chairs and all of that.
- [60:33]
B
Right.
- [60:34]
A
And the island goes away.
- [60:36]
C
Right.
- [60:36]
A
So where are you putting all that stuff?
- [60:37]
B
At the island? Exactly. Yes, exactly. So that's been our challenge, to keep that active storage in the space while giving it a furniture feel. So. But once you kind of figure that out and you figure out the things that you can kind of play with proportionately, it's well worth the effort.
- [60:57]
A
So there's a book coming out in 2027?
- [61:00]
B
Yes, yes. April 2027.
- [61:01]
A
April 2027. Okay. And why. Why do a book. What's the book going to do for you? Hopefully. What's the thinking?
- [61:11]
B
Oh, wow. Why do a book? Yeah, I mean, I've been thinking about doing a book book for, like, five years, ever since Caresha Swanson said I should do a book.
- [61:20]
C
She won't tell you this, but Clarkson Potter also came to her, so.
- [61:23]
B
Yeah, so. Exactly. So that made it pretty easy was they approached me a year ago, and I had kind of come to the conclusion that, you know, a book wasn't going to happen unless it sort of fell in my lap. And. Yeah, about a year ago, it kind of did. So they approached me and said, you know, put together a proposal and. And they helped me find a wonderful agent with Highline Literary. And I had reached a point where I felt like I wanted to have some sort of way to sort of share a, you know, concise form of, like, what I've learned over the years in kitchen design. I wanted. I wanted to have a way to communicate really kind of what I'm communicating in consultations. And from that standpoint, you know, I always want to approach things in a way that, like, I want people to take something away from me. It. I really want people to learn something where they can then translate that into a better kitchen for themselves or a better life. And so the book A Better Life Through A Better Kitchen, Better Life, there's the title. We've been working so hard on it. Thank you. There it is. It's a little wordy, but we'll edit that down. Put that into Chat GPT and just
- [62:33]
A
edit that down a little bit.
- [62:34]
B
I think we can work with it.
- [62:36]
A
Yeah.
- [62:37]
B
So, yeah, it offers up that opportunity. And so as you can imagine, it's been an incredible amount of work. And sort of taking a step back and evaluating your own process has been the hardest part of writing this book. And to figure out how do we explain these aspects of what we do, what to include, what to not include, so that it is a great reference without overwhelming people.
- [63:01]
A
Well, and I'm curious, as we wrap up and thinking about that very notion of, of what is it we are not thinking about or that we're not thinking big enough about when it comes to what can happen in the kitchen that you want to impart to people and make them realize and see.
- [63:22]
B
Yeah, I think the piece that really gets missed so often in people's pin boards and Instagram accounts is this whole functionality about how all the parts need
- [63:35]
C
to work together for you as an individual.
- [63:38]
B
Exactly, yeah. And so it's not going to be formulaic, it's going to be specific because your space is going to be different than everybody else's probably you'll have limitations in terms of you have doors and windows and all of those things are going to be different from anything you're going to be seeing online, probably. So you're starting from a different spot and then your lifestyle is different as well. So you're having to layer in all of these, these individual considerations and then go at it and figure out what is the best way, what's the optimal layout for me, and then to optimize each of those zones. So we start with the overall layout, then we dig in. Right. So there's really a lot to it and I think it's that hard work that you really have to be pushed to do. And how do you find inspiration for that on a 30 second Instagram post? How do people help you through that with a pin? They don't. So everything that we see online and we turn to online for so much of our inspiration ends up being about the aesthetics. And I want people to really turn their focus first on the function of it, because that's what's going to make for a really lasting space. I had the most fun ever with a client's daughter who is about 8, who wearing a tutu, gave me a tour of the kitchen that I had designed for her. She wanted to give me a tour of what was in every single drawer and she took me on like a 10 minute tour and she knew what was in every single drawer, every Single space. And I mean, it had me practically in tears because there was such joy for her that she knew where everything was and the logic and the function behind all that. It was just one of those moments. You're like, this is why I do what I do.
- [65:41]
A
Exactly. This is your raison d', etre, is that you get to do this for people and then imagine if they feel like at least there's some area of their life that they can have this level of control over when everything else seems just out of our ability.
- [65:56]
B
Yeah. And I think people really do need to think about that and about how that plays into your day to day psyche. And obviously I do. And that's when I go and redo my pantry. Right. But it is, you know, you're interacting with your kitchen more than any other space in your home. And if it doesn't, if it's not playing along and supporting you, then you've got that friction in your day that you don't need, you know, and I, you know, you want to have that space feel like it is supporting you. The kitchen serves so many roles, doesn't it? And, you know, you're talking about questioning kind of long term trends and what are we seeing. And I think that that's a trend that's, you know, happening around us. And it all is, it's so obvious almost that we don't even think about it, about the evolution of how much more kitchens are doing even now, just since COVID and. Yeah, and there's, there's a lot more focus on pets now.
- [66:51]
A
Yes.
- [66:52]
B
How many of us got pets during COVID You know, I mean, the pet world exploded. Right. So, so now there are pet stations and, you know, all of those considerations as well to kind of layer in which goes well beyond kind of those main cooking zones.
- [67:06]
A
So, yeah, that's another big priority for people in, in kitchens is the pet
- [67:11]
B
stations and everything else that, I mean, I've had clients hire me because they saw one of my pet stations on Instagram.
- [67:18]
A
Really?
- [67:19]
B
Yes. And yeah, and now we're, you know, working on, you know, second kitchen, third kitchen, that sort of thing. But brought me in because we, you know, we're thinking about it in an innovative way, you know, and it was just because I wanted a space for my cat.
- [67:37]
A
Well, I love, I love that. And thank you so much for letting me come to your studio and to your home. And Sarah and Owen, thank you so much for making the time.
- [67:46]
B
Oh my gosh, this has been such a pleasure, such a thrill and such an honor. To be on your podcast?
- [67:53]
C
Well, yeah, we're big fans, so.
- [67:54]
A
Well, I really appreciate it and I'm delighted to spend time and thank you.
- [67:57]
B
Thank you, Dennis.
- [68:01]
A
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.