Susan Ferrier on finding the strength to start her own firm after 18 years of acclaim at someone else's

Summary

Business of Home Podcast: Susan Ferrier on Finding the Strength to Start Her Own Firm After 18 Years of Acclaim at Someone Else's Release Date: August 11, 2025

In this engaging episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully sits down with renowned interior designer Susan Ferrier to explore her remarkable journey from being a pivotal force at architect Bobby McAlpin's firm to establishing her own successful design practice. Susan shares invaluable insights into her career transitions, business philosophy, the integration of technology, and the evolving challenges within the interior design industry.

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Early Career and Career Shifts

Susan Ferrier's career trajectory is marked by a series of diverse roles before she found her true calling in interior design. She candidly discusses her multiple career changes, each lasting between three to ten months, which ultimately led her to the design world.

Notable Quote:

"[03:15] Susan Ferrier: Well, I couldn't have stayed in any of the things that I had tried because I was on about a 10 month rotation, about 10 months in. I Have a complete and utter career change."

Highlights:

• Varied Roles: Susan's pre-design careers included waiting tables, bartending, managing a temporary agency, overseeing a pizza restaurant (where she met her husband), and managing an infertility clinic.
• Learning Experiences: Her time at the infertility clinic was particularly formative, allowing her to develop strong people skills and financial transparency, which later influenced her design practice.

Discovery of Interior Design

Susan's transition to interior design was driven by her innate visual sensibility and a desire for a more creative and people-oriented profession compared to her previous experiences.

Notable Quote:

"[07:26] Susan Ferrier: And I felt like art history was going to put me in a more academic world. And I don't know if I have the personality to manage that."

Highlights:

• Finding Her Passion: Susan realized her passion for visual aesthetics and the balance of beauty and functionality in spaces.
• First Encounter with Designers: An internship at a design firm and attending a reception at the High Museum of Art solidified her decision to pursue interior design.

Role at Bobby McAlpin's Firm

For nearly two decades, Susan played a crucial role at architect Bobby McAlpin's firm, where she was instrumental in building the design division into a powerhouse.

Notable Quote:

"[15:12] Susan Ferrier: And I was working on interiors, and Ray was also working on interiors in Nashville."

Highlights:

• Collaborative Environment: Susan appreciated the collaborative dynamic with Bobby McAlpin, where architecture and interior design seamlessly complemented each other.
• Leadership and Growth: Under Bobby's mentorship, Susan advanced rapidly, eventually being offered a path to partnership within the firm.

Defining Purpose in Design

Susan emphasizes that interior design transcends mere aesthetics, aiming to create spaces that evoke emotional well-being and foster meaningful relationships.

Notable Quote:

"[17:20] Susan Ferrier: I think that if your interior spaces evoke other senses besides just being visual, I think that then you kind of transcend being a great shopper."

Highlights:

• Holistic Experience: Interiors should be healing, calming, and provide a sanctuary that brings peace and reflects the inhabitants' identities.
• Generosity in Design: Susan believes in creating multi-layered experiences within a room, encouraging clients to engage deeply with their spaces.

Transition to Independent Firm

After 18 years of acclaim, Susan made the courageous decision to start her own firm in 2018, seeking recognition and the freedom to fully express her individual design philosophy.

Notable Quote:

"[21:31] Susan Ferrier: I decided it was time for me to be recognized... it's the next step in the evolution of your art form."

Highlights:

• Maintaining Individuality: Susan wanted to preserve her unique voice and creativity, which she felt could be diluted within a larger firm structure.
• Strategic Decision-Making: Despite fears of failure, Susan weighed the pros and cons thoughtfully, ultimately affirming that starting her own firm was the right move.

Business Philosophy and Transparency

A cornerstone of Susan's business approach is complete transparency with clients regarding costs and project management, ensuring trust and clarity from the outset.

Notable Quotes:

"[30:54] Susan Ferrier: One of the defining business principles that I established was complete transparency, so there are no hidden charges."

"[33:20] Susan Ferrier: I think one of the things that I communicate is that I only receive compensation through my clients."

Highlights:

• No Hidden Costs: Susan is upfront about all expenses, from materials to fees, fostering honest relationships with clients.
• Eliminating Kickbacks: By avoiding vendor kickbacks, Susan ensures that her recommendations are unbiased and solely in the client's best interest.
• Preventing Budget Overruns: Detailed budgeting prevents clients from overspending unexpectedly, maintaining project integrity and client satisfaction.

Embracing Technology and AI

Susan acknowledges the transformative role of technology and artificial intelligence (AI) in the interior design industry, utilizing these tools to enhance efficiency and creativity.

Notable Quote:

"[39:55] Susan Ferrier: Well, I'm just going to say that when you want to get the perfect tone when you're writing and you want to get the information out, but you don't want to spend three hours wordsmithing, so it's just smart."

Highlights:

• Efficiency in Operations: AI assists in tasks like content creation, allowing Susan to focus more on the creative aspects of design.
• Team Dynamics: By surrounding herself with a younger team adept in technology, Susan stays current with evolving trends and tools.
• Adaptability: Susan views AI as a valuable tool rather than a threat, leveraging it to stay competitive and innovative.

Navigating Industry Challenges

The interior design industry faces significant challenges, notably rising costs and perceptions of exclusivity. Susan addresses these issues and their impact on both designers and clients.

Notable Quote:

"[42:48] Susan Ferrier: If it's so expensive, then no one can buy it, you know, or no one can see the value in it."

Highlights:

• Rising Costs: Post-pandemic inflation has drastically increased material and labor costs, making high-quality design less accessible.
• Perception of Exclusivity: High costs risk positioning the industry as exclusive, limiting access to a broader clientele who can benefit from professional design.
• Quality vs. Budget: Susan advocates for investing in quality to ensure longevity and satisfaction, warning against cost-cutting measures that compromise the integrity of the space.

Advice for Aspiring Designers

Drawing from her extensive experience, Susan offers valuable advice to those entering the interior design field, emphasizing hard work, continuous learning, and genuine passion.

Notable Quote:

"[50:09] Susan Ferrier: You've really got to believe in what you're doing. You have to be really sincere. You have to be generous."

Highlights:

• Belief and Sincerity: Passion for design and genuine care for clients are essential for success and fulfillment.
• Continuous Learning: The ever-evolving nature of design requires designers to remain curious and adaptable.
• Humility and Confidence: Balancing humility with confidence, built through experience, enables designers to effectively communicate and execute their vision.
• Work Ethic: Success in interior design demands dedication and a willingness to tackle complex challenges creatively.

Conclusion

Susan Ferrier's journey underscores the importance of authenticity, transparency, and adaptability in building a thriving interior design practice. Her commitment to fostering meaningful client relationships, embracing technological advancements, and maintaining high standards despite industry challenges serves as an inspiring model for designers at all stages of their careers. Through her story, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the multifaceted nature of interior design and the resilience required to excel in this creative and dynamic field.

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Notable Timestamps and Quotes:

• Career Shifts: [03:15] Susan Ferrier discusses her multiple career changes before settling into interior design.
• Discovery of Design: [07:26] Susan explains why she chose interior design over art history.
• Collaboration with McAlpin: [16:12] Susan describes her collaborative relationship with Bobby McAlpin.
• Purpose in Design: [17:20] Susan elaborates on the sensory and emotional aspects of interior spaces.
• Starting Her Own Firm: [21:31] Susan shares her motivations for establishing her independent practice.
• Business Transparency: [30:54] Susan emphasizes her commitment to complete cost transparency with clients.
• Embracing AI: [39:55] Susan talks about the practical applications of AI in her work.
• Industry Challenges: [42:48] Susan voices concerns about rising costs and their implications for the design industry.
• Advice to Designers: [50:09] Susan offers key advice for aspiring interior designers, highlighting sincerity and generosity.

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For More Insights: Visit businessofhome.com to stay updated with the latest in the interior design industry, access job listings, and join the BoH Insider community for exclusive workshops and resources.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Susan Ferrier. Susan's career is somewhat unique in that she reached acclaim working for another firm, in this case architect Bobby McAlpin. Susan spent nearly 20 years there, winning awards and building the design side of the business into a powerhouse. In 2018, she finally went out on her own and has quickly built up an impressive firm, collaborating with Baker on a collection and creating rich layered interiors inspired by a global palette. I spoke with Susan about how rising industry costs have made it harder to do great work, how she uses AI, and why her secret to success is being fortunate, prepared and always saying yes. This podcast is sponsored by BlueDOT, Minnesota's premier modern design brand. If you're a pro, you're going to want to know about Blue Dot's newly updated trade program. Members receive 20% off every order. Every day you get a dedicated trade concierge, AKA a real human being who can assist you with product info, samples, ordering and fulfillment. You'll also get early access to new designs and special finishes reserved just for the trade. There's even more, so head over to BlueDOT.com to learn all about it. That's BlueDOT.com this podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. If you miss them at Vegas Market, Leloy's newest summer introductions keep design at the forefront. Pieces that are beautiful in your home and ethically crafted. The new collections are handmade in India and goodweave certified, which ensures they come from an ethical and transparent supply chain. See those collections and [e-mail] that's L O L O I rugs.com follow them on Instagram and TikTok Laloi rugs to see the rugs from even more angles. And now, on with the show. I was thinking of you the other night. I was at a dinner party and the conversation turned to before you became what you are now. Was the premise right? Yeah, the conversation was if about what was your favorite job that you had before or what job did you think, oh, I could have stayed in this field and I felt like you had explored some different avenues before coming to design and I wonder what your answer to that question would be.

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, I couldn't have stayed in any of the things that I had tried because I was on about a 10 month rotation, about 10 months in. I Have a complete and utter career change.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so. And what brought that about?

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, usually three months into it, I had already gone as high as I could go within the organization. It was a regular pattern. If I was hired to answer the phone, three months later, I was managing the office.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Susan Ferrier]

And then 10 months later, I was, I've gone as far as I can go. This is boring. I'm going to move on to the next thing. So once I landed in design and made that big decision, you know, 35 years later, here I am.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so what were some of the things that you tried that only lasted between 3 months and 10 months?

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, waiting tables and bartending at various establishments.

[Dennis Scully]

All right.

[Susan Ferrier]

I managed a temporary agency. Of course, managing a pizza restaurant is where I met my husband. And then, of course, there was the infertility clinic that I was actually quite well suited for.

[Dennis Scully]

Tell me about that.

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, it was really interesting because it really spoke to the side of me that wanted to help people and also interested in science, you know, So I liked the fact that I worked with an andrologist who is a sperm expert, in case you guys didn't know.

[Dennis Scully]

Thank you for educating us about that word. Because I'm guessing many in the listening audience didn't know what an andrologist was, including myself.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yes. And he would bring me into the lab and I would look through the microscope, and I just found it fascinating. I got to talk to people because I was managing the office. You know, 10 months in, I was managing the office because I was hired.

[Dennis Scully]

Saying, she's running the place. Right. Okay.

[Susan Ferrier]

And I had to talk to the couples about their insurance coverage and how they were going to pay for things. So there's an awful lot of problem solving, and there was a level of intimacy, and I learned a great deal about people, how people's hearts are attached to their wallets.

[Dennis Scully]

Interesting.

[Susan Ferrier]

Even though it should have been a black and white or cut and dry conversation, it always turned very emotional and people's vulnerabilities surfaced. It helped me, I think, in design. It informed how I talk to people about what things will cost.

[Dennis Scully]

So the infertility clinic. And it sounds like you were forming a lot of intimate relationships with people, but that was another one where you reached a ceiling of sorts.

[Susan Ferrier]

It's very draining, and it's not as creative as I needed it to be. I would have had to have gone back to school and gotten a degree. And of course, at that point, I thought, if I'm going to go back to school, I should go back to school. For something that I'm going to enjoy.

[Dennis Scully]

Was interior design a world that you had in any way been exposed to or had an image in your head of what that might look like?

[Susan Ferrier]

You know, I really didn't know what it was going to be like. I just knew that I was really interested in it. And I'm very visual and it fed me. And I always was, I always felt good and happy resting my eyes on things that were of great beauty and actually balance. It was never just one thing. It was a collection of things. It was either that or art history.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Susan Ferrier]

And I felt like art history was going to put me in a more academic world. And not that I have a problem with academia, it's just that I don't know if I have the personality to manage that. I think I would want things to be a little bit more active and people oriented.

[Dennis Scully]

So was it challenging for you to come back to school after trying? And you've talked in the past about all of these things being failures or not working, but it doesn't sound. Is that looking back how you see it or have you rethought that? Have you reframed that since that time?

[Susan Ferrier]

I think they were steps in the process so that when I finally made the decision to go into design, it was just an easier move to make. I didn't come from a house, a background that necessarily thought going into the arts was going to be lucrative and that I would never be able to take care of myself. So it was like a last resort.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and so, I mean, in the house that you came from, was there any expressed desire for what you were going to become or do or be? Was there anybody trying to mold or shape your thinking about that?

[Susan Ferrier]

Yeah, I think that definitely your choices were doctor, lawyer or engineer. Those were the choices. You know, I played the violin when I was in high school and I was pretty good at it. But as I got into my senior year and you know, I thought, well, is Juilliard, you know, a place that I should try to get into? Is that something that. I don't think I was supported in that direction because again, it's creative. And so at the very tail end of my short lived career that was kind of shut down as well. So definitely. And I think it just, it comes all, all this comes out of fear. You know, your parents just want you to be able to take care of yourself.

[Dennis Scully]

So then you said, well, I'll show you. I'm going to get a fine arts degree instead.

[Susan Ferrier]

I struggled anyway.

[Dennis Scully]

Turns out, did I take an Easier path? I'm not sure.

[Susan Ferrier]

Oh, God. I'm going to tell you. When I finally landed in a room full of designers at an event, I felt like I had met my people.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay, well, so tell me about that. So when. So when did that happen for you?

[Susan Ferrier]

I was interning at a design firm, and I was at the High Museum of Art, and it was some kind of a reception, and it was all these interior designers. And I just remember for one of the very first times in my adult life, feeling completely comfortable with everybody in the room. We were all talking about the same things. We were all attracted to the same things. I understood the short attention spans, and I was not bored with any of the conversations. And I thought, wow, who are these people?

[Dennis Scully]

These are my people. Who are they? And what do they do for a living? But that gave you. It sounds like it gave you a sense of clarity, maybe, that you were on the right path, that you were pursuing the right thing for you.

[Susan Ferrier]

It helps relieve the doubt whenever you're going forward and you're a young person and you always wonder, oh, should I would have coulda, you know, kind of thing. It helped relieve some of that doubt, and it only made me pursue the direction I was going into much stronger. And I think at that point in time, I then realized that I needed to position myself and be prepared for anything, any opportunity that came my way. And somebody asked me, would you like to, you know, come and work part time at our firm? And I said, yes. He goes, would you like to know anything about our firm? And I said, no.

[Dennis Scully]

And who was. And who was that?

[Susan Ferrier]

That was Fred Brooks.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Susan Ferrier]

He used to have a firm in Atlanta, and it was my very first interior design job. It was an internship that turned into a design position that then turned into a project management role in their company really very quickly. And it was the job that I had before I accepted a position with Bobby McAlpin's firm. So honestly, I only really worked as a straight employee once in design. And then when I joined Bobby's team at McAlpin, and I think it was maybe six or seven months into it that I was offered a path to partnership. You know, it was like, I want to. I don't want to call it the golden age of design, but it wasn't a time.

[Dennis Scully]

But, you know, it was a good time.

[Susan Ferrier]

It wasn't a time where, if you were. If you had a background in anything other than interior design that could help you, because interior designers really come on. But we're not known for being great Business people. So I think when somebody sees that you have different experiences that are going to make you a great fit, I think those opportunities, like I said, being prepared, I think those opportunities arise well.

[Dennis Scully]

So that's interesting. So what do you think they saw in you or what did you reveal about your knowledge or expertise that made them realize that you were more. More than just a good designer?

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, you know, first, of course, it starts with talent, and then it rolls into being able to close the deal, being able to say you're going to do something and then do it. So what was the word? Oh, Suzanne Kastler once said to me, susan, we're capable. That's one of our best qualities. And that's why things have happened for us the way they've happened for a few people in design. And it has to do with being capable. And I think that I brought capability.

[Dennis Scully]

So interesting. So, I mean, and as you say, there were lots of iterations of what is known today as McAlpin, but I mean, it sounds as if they had an eye on you pretty early on, and you get on the partner track and how remarkable. And end up staying there for. For many, many years, despite it not being the most easy to get to office, if I recall, geographically.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yeah. Well, and that's another thing. When Bobby wanted to move the practice to a different city, I said yes. I went home, I talked to my husband. We would figure it out. You know, a lot of other people did say no, but I said yes. I put myself on that path. And we started off in Montgomery, Alabama, but soon after I joined, we ended up opening offices in Nashville, Tennessee. So for three or four years at least, I was in my car on Mondays and Fridays, driving back and forth between Atlanta and Nashville. And I had an apartment in Nashville that I stayed in during the week. And then, because the practice was based kind of nationally, after a while I said, well, I've got to drive back to Atlanta to catch a plane to fly to this other location, so why don't I just work out of Atlanta? Because the airport was here, and that's when I opened up an Atlanta office.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Susan Ferrier]

And we were strong enough, I think, as a firm, that it could support that. I mean, it did support that.

[Dennis Scully]

And you were the one that was really building the interior design side of the business.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yeah, I was working on interiors, and Ray was also working on interiors in Nashville.

[Dennis Scully]

Ray Booth. Exactly. Yes.

[Susan Ferrier]

So I would say that we both worked very hard to develop that part of the business.

[Dennis Scully]

And we should say. I mean, and again, Susan, for Listeners who might not be familiar with the remarkable Bobby McAlpin and, and you and Ray, I mean, and the work that everyone at that firm was doing. But there was something really magical about Bobby. And so many people refer to him as sort of a poet when it comes to architecture and how he both talks about it and thinks about it. What was it like working with him? And I wonder what you learned took away what was part of all of that for you?

[Susan Ferrier]

I think one of the great things about him was he was never threatened by the power that a great interior brings into a space. I think that we also fed on each other when it came to design. You know, I don't like to use the word no. And he would make a suggestion and I would go, yes, and let's do this. Or I would make a suggestion and he goes, oh, my God, that's great. And we can change that. I mean, so it was very nice to collaborate the way we did. It was a great evolutionary step that brought me to who I am right now. I can say that I'm fortunate to be a person on this planet that has been able to pursue maybe one of the reasons why they are here. I feel very self actualized in design.

[Dennis Scully]

So when you think about that and you talk about your purpose, what do you think your purpose is as related to what you were just describing?

[Susan Ferrier]

I think that if your interior spaces evoke other senses besides just being visual, I think that then you kind of transcend being a great shopper, you know.

[Dennis Scully]

Which is sometimes how designers, right. Are compartmentalized.

[Susan Ferrier]

I have good taste and I know how to shop. And it's really all about the relationship, not only of the pieces that are in the room and the textures that are in the room, but also the relationship that you are striking between the people that you're doing it for. Your client, the homeowners, the resident, you want to make sure that you're elevating their experience. You know, interiors should be, you know, if you're doing it well, it should be healing, it should be calming. You know, it should give you some kind of peace inside. You know, if you want to be agitated by your environment, you should go to a nightclub, but I think that.

[Dennis Scully]

But that shouldn't be your home environment.

[Susan Ferrier]

I just think that everybody has their purpose. And so much of what we do in our daily lives out in the world knocks us off center. But it's nice to be able to come back to a place that recenters you and reminds you of who you are. And hopefully that you're safe and loved. You know, some interiors have a little bit of a sense of humor to them. They make you laugh, they make you think. I think they can do anything. They just don't have to be pretty.

[Dennis Scully]

You mean they can be so much more. They can be pretty and they can do all of these other things.

[Susan Ferrier]

They can.

[Dennis Scully]

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[Susan Ferrier]

Well, your interior designer loves you. At the very least, if your interior designer loves you, they're going to do a really great job for you.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes, yes. Which is why you want to be nicer to them. I think than often some clients are right. I feel like some clients don't get the love thing.

[Susan Ferrier]

We're just trying to love you more and more better. We can't possibly work with that budget.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. We want, we need more love to make this work.

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, it has to do with generosity. I think that you have to have a generous spirit and you want to give it a multi level experience in a room and not just a quick flash or the surface. You want to be able to sit in a space for a while and have your attention drawn to things that you may not have noticed at first.

[Dennis Scully]

I want to come back to this discussion, but I want to talk a little bit about so we said earlier, 20 years moving around, opening offices, growing this amazing firm and you decide it's time for you to go out on your own.

[Susan Ferrier]

I decided it was time for me to be recognized. You know, when you work so well with other people and you're so in it, I didn't want to lose myself, my individuality. So it's the next step. You know, it Is the next step in the evolution of your art form, of your capabilities in design, the independence. I don't want to be a failure to launch.

[Dennis Scully]

I don't want to be a failure to launch. Well, so did you feel. I mean, you were a partner in the firm. Did you feel as if there wasn't enough. Sufficient recognition of you and the work that you were doing?

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, it wasn't necessarily. You know, it's always recognition. You want to be recognized, but it's also, you get to be a lot more agile. And when it's just your feet rather than a whole group of people that you had to move, turn their head to look in a certain direction, sometimes you just get too big, and you can't get as much accomplished when there's just too many voices. It's like a committee versus an individual. And I think we can all agree that decisions based on committee sometimes aren't as good as decisions that are made by one or two people. But like I said, you know, it is the next. It's the next step in my development to be independent and believe in what I do, have the confidence to execute it. I believe in what I do. I've never tread water. And so I wanted to grow. And I thought, you know, they could all take care of themselves. They didn't need me there.

[Dennis Scully]

This firm will be fine.

[Susan Ferrier]

I'll be fine. They don't need me.

[Dennis Scully]

They don't need me.

[Susan Ferrier]

They won't even notice.

[Dennis Scully]

I'm going to notice and grow. They won't even notice. So was this a long time that you were thinking about this? Was this a big, heavy debate going on for you?

[Susan Ferrier]

Of course it was for a while.

[Dennis Scully]

Of course it was.

[Susan Ferrier]

Of course, it was not a light decision. And I think that I would not be considered a very patient person. But when it comes to the really big stuff, I think I like to have a lot of Runway, and I like to slow play something, you know, because I think there's a part of me that's conservative like that. I don't want to, in my wake, damage, you know. So I think that it was a very. You know, you talk yourself into things. You talk yourself out of things. I think it was a very long time. And it was a hard decision. It was really hard. It was scary. When you make a decision like that, you have to know that I could fail, and I have to be okay with me failing. And I can only say now, after seven years, it was the right decision for me. I think it was the right decision for everybody. Maybe it opened opportunity up for others. Maybe it didn't, you know, maybe it was a lot of things. But at its highest level, if you're gonna think about it in grace at its highest level, it is the natural next step for a developing human being that has a voice and has talent and wants to again, self actualize and be who they can be and never wonder. And I'm going to tell you right now, I couldn't be who I am right now without all of that and all my experiences. But they should be proud, you know, I was able to take it and turn it into something, you know, and.

[Dennis Scully]

Do some beautiful work and look what they had such a huge role in helping to turn out. Right.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yeah, I'm not. I don't ever want to diminish that experience. So much good came out of it. So much beauty came out of it. It was great. But, you know, you get bored doing things the same way all the time. I mean, you want to experiment a little, you know, you want your eyes to have a little bit more of a twinkle in them maybe.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I'm so glad that you're talking about it in this way because so many people struggle with this decision, going out on their own or setting up their own shop or leaving a firm where they've been for a long time. And like, you have found great success and learned a great deal. And just to wrap this up, I mean, you go and you. I assume you have a conversation with Bobby and is it a lot of back and forth? Is it an emotional, Is it a drama?

[Susan Ferrier]

No, I don't think it was a drama. You know, I think that the drama came from the people that were one or two steps or degrees away from the conversation. I think the drama came from the smaller players.

[Dennis Scully]

I see the peanut gallery.

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, I don't want the peanut gallery have themselves peanuts. They think of themselves as cashews, you know.

[Dennis Scully]

Right. Exotic Brazilian nuts.

[Susan Ferrier]

Right.

[Dennis Scully]

They're much more sophisticated. Yes. Okay.

[Susan Ferrier]

But I think that. I don't think that it was dramatic. I mean, there was sadness, there was confusion, there was, you know, there's always going to be that uncomfortable moments. But, you know, it's what happens in the years afterwards that people should look at and examine. You know, I have no reason to not look them all in the eye. Straight in the eye, you know.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Susan Ferrier]

So there's. It definitely comes later in dribs and drabs, any drama. And I think that it probably happened like that because it was time. You think things are forever, but sometimes forever is lazy you know, sometimes you have to kind of push. But, you know, I think that there's a lot of things that I'm doing now that I never could have done, you know, if I had stayed there.

[Dennis Scully]

Like, what are you able to do now that you couldn't have done?

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, I think that when an opportunity comes, came my way for the collaboration with Baker Furniture. I have a furniture line that's just come out this year. It was presented at market. I think that one of the really great and rewarding things about that is that it is solely me. And there was never any consulting anybody. Well, what do you think about the leg of this chair kind of a thing? It was 100%.

[Dennis Scully]

There was no design by committee.

[Susan Ferrier]

None. But, you know, I think it was a really good exercise for me, I'm sure, because it was like. I mean, how many people get to walk into huge spaces and every single thing came out of their head or through their hand that is in that space? You know, it was very. It was like a legacy thing. It was very rewarding. It was a great collaboration. You know, I think that that was something that would have been maybe watered down, shared, divided up. You know, those kinds of things kind of happen. And then you just don't get the pure voice, you know, that pure voice. You know, I had some experiences that led me to believe that that was this. If I wanted to do anything else, this was probably the best way to get the purest tone out there in the world. You know, I think that if you are put on this earth and you don't do what you were put on this earth to do, and I've probably said this before to you, I feel like that is one of the great sins. I feel like that is a sin. I would give that advice to any person in any field. You know, are you doing the best that you can do? Does it resonate in your heart? And are you making a difference with your work or with your creation out in the world? I've been very fortunate. I've been really fortunate, and I'm very grateful. Very grateful.

[Dennis Scully]

Susan, I want to come back. I want to ask you about how you thought about setting up your own firm when you finally did, and what notions you had about what you wanted the firm to feel like and both the scale and size of it and the kinds of projects. But I especially want to come back to an earlier part of the conversation where you talked. Even before you were in design, you talked about having a heightened sensitivity towards people's money relationship. One of the things that seems so challenging about our industry is having money conversations, talking about how much designers charge and the way that they charge and what the contracts say. And I imagine you might have some opinions there, Susan.

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, I think one of the defining business principles that I established was complete transparency, so there are no hidden charges. I try to be honest upfront, and sometimes I don't get projects because I'm too honest up front about how much.

[Dennis Scully]

It'S going to cost.

[Susan Ferrier]

I tell them how much it's going to cost, they think, oh, she's really expensive. Then they hire somebody else, and then it ends up costing what I said it was going to cost. And that designer comes back to me and says, I'm so glad you told them how much it was going to cost, because when it did end up costing that much, I just referred back to what you told them. And I'm like, great, I didn't get that job.

[Dennis Scully]

That's really helpful.

[Susan Ferrier]

Thanks. Thanks for that.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks. That makes me feel great.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yeah, that was a real conversation. So I think transparency and being really honest about how much things are going to cost. Yes, initially, my shoulders go up, their shoulders go up. It's disbelief. But I try to be very holistic and all inclusive and not have anything hidden. So I want to be as open as possible. Again, when I would talk to people about infertility treatments, you have to tell them how much it's going to cost. You can't get to the 10th step and then not get to the baby step, you know, and no pun intended.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. And by the way, to actually deliver this child will be $25,000.

[Susan Ferrier]

Right. So we would have to have, really, where are you going to find that money? And this is really what it's going to be. So I think that it's really important to identify the entire nut and then be honest about it as early as possible.

[Dennis Scully]

So tell me what that means, because sometimes when people say, oh, I want to be fully transparent, they break out. Listen, this is how I, as a designer, make money on this job. I charge 35% markup on the products that I buy, or I charge a design fee, or I charge hourly, or I do all or any of the above, and that's how I make my money. Is that what you. Is that what you mean in sort of talking about how much? All of this, really, in addition to, oh, by the way, that door hardware that you love is. It's like $10,000. And you may not understand that door hardware costs a lot of money.

[Susan Ferrier]

One of the things that I communicate is that I only receive compensation through my clients. I think in the way back time, interior designers used to get things called kickbacks. So they'd get paid by their client as well as the vendor they were specifying. And that is maybe not as transparent. Maybe they don't know you're getting that because now you are incentivized to do maybe what's not best for the project or the beauty of it. So I'd like to take all of that off the table completely. The other thing that I like to do is identify every single line item, from the final cleaning to the installation, to the tax, the freight, the shipping. We will be having conversations about tariffs.

[Dennis Scully]

I'm sure one can't avoid it these.

[Susan Ferrier]

Days, but you know, and what that means on the bottom line number, you know, this is what something costs. This is my fee. This is possibly in projects of the same similar scope and size as yours. These were the hourly charges that can be added into this. I try to think of every time you write a check that it's going to fit into one of the categories that I've pre identified for you and have a target number because in the end you want to close the deal and in the end you want to cross the finish line with a complete interior. And if you can't complete the interior on your budget, then I will tell you, you might not be able to do the whole house. You can do part of the house, but I want to take all of that into consideration so that you don't get 2/3 of the way through and then you kind of run out of money. So you have to have a brain that thinks about those things as well. If you don't, then maybe you shouldn't have your own place. You know, you can maybe do something else that doesn't require both halves of your brain or partner with somebody that does have that.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break to talk about bluedot's new trade program. Designers receive exclusive finishes, early access to product launches and a 20% discount on every order. No minimums required. A dedicated trade concierge is there to help with quotes, samples and getting things done right. It's smart, modern support for how you really work. Learn [e-mail] that's b l u d o t dot com and now back to the show. So with that in mind and understanding that you are one of those people who is fortunate enough to have left brain, right brain skills, and most people don't. Was there a concern or a challenge you went back to school slightly later in your life. Right. You were no doubt there with people who were younger than you.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yep.

[Dennis Scully]

You started your own firm at a point later in your life than many people do. Was that particularly challenging for you? Did that present challenges that you hadn't considered or that turned out to be surprising to you? You're shaking your head, you're like, no, I got this.

[Susan Ferrier]

I'm a late bloomer and I told you, I like to slow play things. I like to know and build on all those experiences. So I am going to say that I. No, I never thought about it. And here's the other thing. I surrounded myself with a lot of people that were younger than I am, and I don't know why I did that, but it's really worked out well because I think I'm younger than I am now. I mean, now I'm not because, you know, getting sore.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I noticed that you have a young team. You have some interesting portraits of your team members on the website. There's a very artistic flair to the look and feel of your site and the portraits of the team. And they are, they look young.

[Susan Ferrier]

I like being able to hear new ideas and, you know, the world is changing and at some point, you know, you have to get off. You have to say, okay, it's changed so much that I'm not going to bring the value that I used to bring to the planet. And maybe I just need to sit back and let somebody else take it from here. But I think that when you have people that are younger, they keep you current, you. You understand things and not just design, but just the way the, you know, what's happening, what the trends are, you know, and I just don't like being with people that kind of get set in their ways, you know, and, you know, it gets kind of boring.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, that says it all right there. Well, and that is the wonderful thing about working with, with young people. And I. And I think it does help to keep you young and as you were pointing out, to keep you close to the things that are changing so dramatically in our world today.

[Susan Ferrier]

And how people live, you know, how people live today is much different than how they lived when I first started out. I think that we have to be able to respond to where we are right now. Currently, the layouts of spaces, how rooms are assigned, you know, socially, we've changed. Technology has completely put us on our ear, you know, and fortunately, my husband's in technology.

[Dennis Scully]

Is he. Is he fooling around with AI?

[Susan Ferrier]

Is he actually is, yes.

[Dennis Scully]

And what does he have to say.

[Susan Ferrier]

He says people that work with their hands are going to be in a sweet spot.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay, well, that's encouraging.

[Susan Ferrier]

But yeah, AI is like anything else. It's a tool, and I think that people should use it.

[Dennis Scully]

Are you using it in some meaningful way in your firm, in your work, in your back office? I mean, is there?

[Susan Ferrier]

Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay. You seem hesitant.

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, I'm just going to say that when you want to get the perfect tone when you're writing and you want to get the information out, but you don't want to spend three hours wordsmithing, so it's just smart. I'm not going to dig my heels in and say I'm never going to use it and then be not only left behind, but you kind of have to keep up. And I'm not even that good at it. I'm terrible.

[Dennis Scully]

But you're using it and you're exploring it.

[Susan Ferrier]

I condone it.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, that's an important step. And I would imagine that the young people in your office are using it a great deal.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

And you're seeing that usage.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yes, yes, I support that. Wouldn't you rather be designing?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. So finding the efficiencies so that you can get back to doing more design, it sounds like, is what you're saying.

[Susan Ferrier]

And you learn from it. You know, I'm like, oh, that is a softer way to put to make that point. You know, you learn from it. You've got all this knowledge in one place. I'm going to choose to not be threatened by it right now.

[Dennis Scully]

Right. It's not coming to kill us just yet.

[Susan Ferrier]

Not yet.

[Dennis Scully]

So right now, while it's still in the tools phase, where it is helping humans. Yes. So that's interesting. Okay, so your perspective, it's here and let's learn about it and let's get into it and see how it's going to help shape our business. I wonder when we were talking earlier about. We were talking about the costs of things. One of the issues that comes up a lot today. Yes, tariffs, of course, but also just the rising cost in general of our industry, how much more expensive it is to build a house or furnish a home. And all of the things that go into that are just so much more expensive than they've ever been.

[Susan Ferrier]

Thoughts What I have seen happen pre pandemic to now, with costs going up and then not coming back down, it's hard to get the results and create the beautiful spaces that we could create seven years ago. I think that things have, in some cases Things have doubled. At the very least it's 10%, but it goes to 25% increase. It's been a little limiting. I don't know why. I mean, I do know why. I suppose if I picked it apart and thought about it. But I just think it's not really good for the industry. You know, I think that we're kind of shooting ourselves in the foot a little bit.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, that's what I worry about as well. So elaborate on that. What do you, what do you think that means?

[Susan Ferrier]

If it's so expensive, then no one can buy it, you know, or no one can see the value in it. So you're not going to have your vision fully realized. Everything's going to be abbreviated or the thing that you can afford. And this is the real sin. The thing that you can afford will not last as long and then you end up throwing it away. There are lower end pieces of furniture that 100% of the time are what my clients call me back and say the leg fell off or, you know, the arm is broken and it's like clockwork. You can say, well, that was a value engineered piece that has a dent in it. That was a piece that we kind of knew that we were going to try to spend a little less so we could buy this magnificent ceiling fixture. We decided to make your kids bedrooms out of cardboard and paperclip. So it was.

[Dennis Scully]

Those bunk beds. They really shouldn't sleep on those because they might not.

[Susan Ferrier]

They look great, but don't sleep on that bottom bunk.

[Dennis Scully]

Those were the little cost cutting measures that we decided to make. But look at that ceiling fix.

[Susan Ferrier]

Yeah, but you know, just look up because you'll be on your back because you won't have a chair. But that's the real, that's the real problem that I see is that we're put in a position where we're buying maybe not the best quality just to, to meet a budget and to have something completed. Whereas previously things were still much more affordable. They were still expensive. It was still expensive, but it was good value and it would last a lot longer. A lot of things have really climbed. It's shocking to me. And it's not just furniture. It's food, it's everything. It's just we're going to feel that pinch at some point.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. No, no, no. We really did let the inflation genie out of the bottle.

[Susan Ferrier]

We did.

[Dennis Scully]

Right. And as you say, we've always been an expensive industry, but there's just, it's been exponential in these past. Even just the Past few years.

[Susan Ferrier]

Have you seen that?

[Dennis Scully]

Oh, absolutely. And I talk about it with people constantly. And what I worry about is that, first of all, I don't want this industry to be perceived as one that is only accessible or available to the top 1% of the 1%.

[Susan Ferrier]

I agree with you.

[Dennis Scully]

Right. And we think, oh, this is only for billionaires who can afford to have designers. I want everyone at every level to be able to have a well designed home and to experience all the things that we were talking about earlier. The joy, the happiness. Happiness, the feeling of belonging. But also, I just think that I see so many wealthy people who choose not to hire an interior designer because again, as you were saying, they don't see the value or they think we're just going to be jacking up the prices or they think we're going to get ripped off somehow, it's expensive enough as it is. And then so many designers will tell me, oh, they buy a $10 million house and. And then they have no budget or not a proper budget to do the interiors of said house.

[Susan Ferrier]

Correct.

[Dennis Scully]

And that's equally heartbreaking and disturbing and sad.

[Susan Ferrier]

So one of the things that I've done is I've looked back at projects that I've done over the years and I then do some fancy division and I figure out, so if you want it to look like this, you have to spend this per square foot. It dictates what your budget is. Now, this is very beautiful as well, but it is $100 less a square foot.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Susan Ferrier]

I have had to take those numbers and almost double them in the last seven years. I mean, it's just, it's. Your interior designer has to be like a super sleuth. You know, you've got to be, you know, you've got to find these things.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes, yes.

[Susan Ferrier]

You know, there's several skill sets that you need to really develop in order to be an effective and good interior designer. You pretty much have to be a jack of all trades. You have to be an excellent problem solver. Every part of my brain is firing.

[Dennis Scully]

Which in a way, I mean, and I'm so glad you said it that way because so often we have this conversation about, oh, I wish they had taught that in design school, or, oh, I wish I had been prepared for the money conversations, or just the psychological conversations in general. But I think in a remarkable way, without perhaps ever realizing that this would be as fulfilling and rewarding this way, I think a really great interior designer's brain really is firing in that way you just described, because you are having to be this super sleuth, as you were just saying, and kind of find this way to how can we get this piece? Maybe we get to spend a little less on that. Maybe I have to hunt a little further, look at some other options outside of my normal comfort zone and come up with the right thing. And be constantly keeping your client on the hook or engaged and writing those checks without feeling miserable in the process.

[Susan Ferrier]

And presenting it in a way that people will hear. Different people need to be presented information in different ways. You gotta make sure that how you are saying something is going to be received in the way you want it received. And I used to think that if I were going to have another life, I would love to be a judge. I used to think that that was really, I would love to be a judge. But now I'm wondering if I would be good at hostage negotiation. Because you've got to hear the things that aren't being said. And also, you know, I have learned that you can almost hear a facial expression when you're talking to somebody and they're smiling. Their voice sounds different.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Susan Ferrier]

And I don't know if many people are aware of that, that people can hear your expression on the telephone. So you have to be mindful of that. And it's great to have all this history in this field because I see the patterns, and it's not just my experiences. It's the experiences of others, you know, that you listen to and apply and hopefully learn from without having to go through it yourself, like, take their word for it.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, that's why I wonder. I mean, and again, there's no shortcut. But when I think of. And you and I have talked about this in the past, when I. When I think of the design students at the New York School of Interior Design, or I think about people who are thinking about stepping away from the jobs they're in now and becoming a designer. And so many do later in life, like you. I wonder, what can you share with them? What can you help them think about that turns out to be so important?

[Susan Ferrier]

You've really got to believe in what you're doing. You have to be really sincere. You have to be generous. You have to believe that what you're doing is going to make a difference for the people standing in front of you. It is a lifestyle, and you can almost never let your guard down because you're constantly learning and picking things up. It's like tools for the craft in everyday life because you are expected to be an expert in everything. If I were standing in front of a room of students. I guess the first thing that I would say is, you have to be prepared to work really hard. I would almost say that to anything, because if this was easy, everyone would be doing it. And not only a precious few of us are practicing, but it has such a aura of glamour around it. So many people want to do it and fantasize about it and think, oh, I can do that. You know, your clients are very smart. You have to be able to talk to them about a lot of things. You want them to think that you know something, that you've experienced things. You have to speak intelligently. And if you don't know something, by all means, don't fake it. Just by virtue of the fact that they can afford you. They know stuff, they're accomplished. They're very good. They're experts in their field. Learn from them. Listen to them. Sometimes you need to be quiet.

[Dennis Scully]

Not a skill that some people have. Just learning to be quiet.

[Susan Ferrier]

That's right. And you might think you're worldly. You have no idea the access some of your clients are going to have. So I think it's important to remain humble. I think it's important to be confident. Yes. Because people can sense you're confident. But the only way you're truly going to be confident is if you accomplish things and you learn it. You're not just guessing or repeating it. You have to know it and learn it. It has to be part of your fabric. So, I don't know. It's really hard. I think it's hard for people, young people, getting out there right now.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, I think, of course, we're all faking it in the beginning to some degree. Right. To get in the door. We're often saying, of course I know how to do that, or, of course I can take that on. Right. That's how you rose to the top of so many of the places that you worked for when they hired you to answer the phone, and then suddenly you were running the office because you said, sure, I can take that on. Right?

[Susan Ferrier]

Well, sure, but I was a little older.

[Dennis Scully]

Which helped. Which helped.

[Susan Ferrier]

But that also speaks to. I want to surround myself with younger people because they bring so much to the table about the way our world is changing and growing and what people prioritize and think is important. But there's also absolutely no substitution for experience and somebody well seasoned in the field that has been through all the lessons, or at least a lot of them. There is. Absolutely. I would go toe to toe with anybody based on my experience. And that right there translates into dollars. Not that I'm charging, but what I'm saving my clients, you know, mistakes in construction or, or in an interior. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. I see that much wasted all the time. And if you get somebody that's experienced, that knows what to look for, to know the right question to ask, it's a safety net. If you don't make mistakes on the front end, you'll have that money to spend on your interior.

[Dennis Scully]

My experience is saving you potential hundreds of thousands of dollars for this project. You're going to be able to afford the landscaping because of my vast experience in this industry.

[Susan Ferrier]

Honestly, I know you're smiling, but I'm telling you no.

[Dennis Scully]

That is your great sales pitch. I was hoping in this conversation, Susan, that we would get the great Susan Ferrier wisdom in this, and I believe we've just gotten to it. Susan, I'm so grateful for you to have made the time to, to talk with me. And I've, and I've so enjoyed our conversation.

[Susan Ferrier]

I've thoroughly enjoyed this.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.