The industry has gotten more intense. Shawn Henderson has gotten more relaxed

Summary

Business of Home Podcast: "The Industry Has Gotten More Intense. Shawn Henderson Has Gotten More Relaxed"
Host: Dennis Scully
Guest: Sean Henderson
Release Date: January 6, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully engages in a candid conversation with renowned interior designer Sean Henderson. Sean, who has built an illustrious career after working with prestigious firms like Birch Coffee and Thad Hayes, shares his insights on navigating the evolving interior design landscape, the pressures of industry recognition, and his personal journey towards a more relaxed professional demeanor.

Early Life and Career Beginnings

Sean Henderson's introduction to the business world began in his family's hospitality ventures. Growing up in a bustling restaurant environment, Sean honed a strong work ethic from a young age. He recounts, “[00:05] Sean Henderson: ...all of us worked in our family restaurant together at one time,” illustrating how his early responsibilities shaped his approach to business.

Transitioning from hospitality to design, Sean worked under mentors like Chris Layton in Rochester, where he immersed himself in the technical aspects of interior design. This foundational experience was crucial, as Sean notes, “[06:11] Sean Henderson: ...learned a lot about the history of design and the history of furniture.”

Transition to Independence

Sean's ambition led him to New York City in 1996, where he initially joined a furniture company, John Boone. However, his true passion for design propelled him to work with Birch Coffee and later, influential designer Thad Hayes. A pivotal moment occurred when Sean, despite not securing an immediate position with Hayes, maintained professionalism by sending a handwritten thank-you note—a gesture that eventually led to his hiring over another candidate. “[09:56] Sean Henderson: I was so hungry to learn about design and to grow in the industry that I was…”

Impact of AD100 and Industry Recognition

Being featured on prominent lists like the AD100 has been a significant milestone in Sean's career. While he acknowledges the prestige associated with such recognitions, Sean emphasizes that maintaining these accolades requires consistent quality and relationship management. “[24:24] Sean Henderson: ...I think I was never really great at that kind of PR type of relationship.” He reflects on the evolving meaning of these lists in the digital age, where social media plays a substantial role in a designer's visibility.

Industry Challenges: Rising Costs and Increased Intensity

Sean candidly discusses the escalating costs within the interior design industry, attributing much of the intensity to factors like inflation and supply chain disruptions post-COVID-19. “[32:18] Sean Henderson: I think it's way more intense today. And I don't know if that is just a symptom of how fast we are moving in every aspect of our lives or if it's just industry related.” He highlights the challenges of managing client expectations and maintaining quality amidst rising expenses, noting that lead times for furniture can now stretch up to 24 weeks.

Work-Life Balance and Team Management

Reflecting on his own experiences, Sean shares the evolution of his management style. Early in his career, he struggled with authority and managing a growing team, leading to a midlife crisis where he had to downsize his firm. “[46:48] Sean Henderson: ...personal therapy. And also just the work that I have done on myself.” Today, he prioritizes a balanced and respectful work environment, ensuring his team remains motivated and supported without the excessive demands typical of the industry’s past.

Personal Growth and Overcoming Challenges

Sean attributes his resilience and personal growth to therapy and self-reflection. He recounts a challenging period around 2013 when overwhelming business pressures led to significant team layoffs. Through personal therapy, Sean managed to stabilize his professional and personal life, fostering a healthier work culture. “[46:48] Sean Henderson: I think it was probably therapy, personal therapy. I'm not even kidding.”

Design Philosophy and Aesthetic

Sean's design ethos centers on creating spaces that are both contextual and emotionally resonant. While he initially aspired to have a signature look recognizable at a glance, Sean has come to appreciate the adaptability of his designs. “[50:07] Sean Henderson: ...my work is a little bit adaptable, and that, to me, is so important…” He emphasizes the importance of appropriateness to the space and the client's lifestyle, ensuring every element serves a meaningful purpose.

Future Plans and Aspirations

Looking ahead, Sean expresses a desire to venture into licensing and product design, collaborating on collections such as rugs and bespoke lamps. He is also eager to tackle larger-scale projects like restaurants and hotels, leveraging his hospitality background to create inviting and functional spaces. “[54:47] Sean Henderson: ...working on a collection of these bespoke lamps with my friend and colleague Mike Ruffles.”

Conclusion

In this insightful episode, Sean Henderson provides a transparent look into the interior design industry's current landscape, marked by heightened intensity and escalating costs. Yet, his personal journey towards a more relaxed and balanced approach offers a blueprint for thriving amidst these challenges. Sean's commitment to contextual design, team well-being, and continuous personal growth underscores his enduring influence in the world of interior design.

Notable Quotes:

• “[00:03] Dennis Scully: ...We should have that designer versus decorator conversation because I still have people emailing me all worked up about it.”

• “[06:24] Sean Henderson: ...We probably just learned it through, you know, osmosis and just kind of being around the business.”

• “[14:53] Dennis Scully: ...I have a good team that I built, and I'm able to now focus more time on other things.”

• “[24:50] Sean Henderson: ...I think I have just gotten to a different place in my life and in my career, and I just feel calmer and probably a little bit more secure.”

• “[44:11] Sean Henderson: ...I think it is way more intense today.”

• “[48:27] Dennis Scully: ...there seems to be an inherent value in that also.”

This episode serves as a valuable resource for interior design professionals and enthusiasts alike, offering both practical insights and personal reflections on thriving in a demanding industry.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Sean Henderson. Shawn cut his teeth working for established New York names like Birch Coffee and Thad Hayes before going out on his own in the early 2000s. He's since carved out a shining career with industry accolades, high profile clients around the world, a monograph published by Monacelli, and thoughtfully layered projects regularly appearing in top shelter publications. I spoke with Sean about what being on lists like the AD100 does and doesn't do for your career, how runaway costs have impacted the industry, and how loosening up and relaxing his style has changed his work for the better. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta, your destination for designer quality custom size rugs. With a curated assortment of timeless colors, patterns and textures. Ernesta will deliver the right size rug in the style your client wants in only two to four weeks. And with Ernesta's exclusive trade membership benefits, you can get dedicated support, free unlimited samples and special discounts to help you achieve your clients design goals. To join Ernesta's trade program, visit ernesta.com boh this podcast is also sponsored by Ethan Allen. Ethan Allen is known for its classic good looks and reputation for quality. But did you know that most every piece of furniture is customizable? Designers can choose from hundreds of fabrics, an array of leathers, more than a dozen wood finishes, and most upholstery pieces can be made with contrast welts, dual fabrics, nail head trims and so much more. Design something one of a kind and Ethan Allen will bring it to life. To join their trade program, go to ethanallen.com and now back to the show. And we should have that designer versus decorator conversation because I still have people emailing me all worked up about it. I spoke to Bill Sofield about it. He said, you know what, I just like designer. Let's just go with designer. Nevermind. Interior designer, Never mind decorator. How about just designer? I'm like, sure. Works for, works for me. Legendary Bill Sopholi.

[Sean Henderson]

Right?

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Sean Henderson]

I think it's going to be whatever you want, Bill.

[Dennis Scully]

Whatever you say, sir. Yeah, yeah. He was also funny enough thinking about my conversation with you. He was talking about the similarities between the hospitality industry and the design industry. And I think a lot of people, as you and I have discussed, think hospitality is a great way to learn some of the basic skill sets that you need. Right. To be a successful designer. I'm not saying Everyone has to be born into a family of six or seven, if I recall with you. But speaking of that. And you did grow up in the hospitality industry, right? And that your father ran a successful restaurant and you and family members were all put to work in various ways. Tell me a little bit about that.

[Sean Henderson]

Well, yeah, I mean, I always joke that my parents had so many kids so they could have a built in workforce. Right? Built in.

[Dennis Scully]

That was very smart of them.

[Sean Henderson]

I know.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, I think your mother had any number of children right before she was 30, if I recall.

[Sean Henderson]

That's right. My mom had five kids by the time she was 28. And then I came along seven years later. Surprise, surprise. Yeah, no, it was. So I'm.

[Dennis Scully]

And did they tell you that you were a big surprise? Actually we weren't planning on you, Sean.

[Sean Henderson]

No, they actually never told me that. I mean, I think some of my siblings have told me that. Yeah. But I, you know, I think technically it makes me an only child, right, to have had that, that big of an age difference between the next oldest and me. But yeah, I mean, by the time I came around I, you know, they were exhausted and thank God I was a really good kid because I never really got into any trouble. But so, but yeah, I mean, I could do whatever I want, I wanted, basically. But we all did work in this, in our family restaurant together at one time. All of us worked there. But my dad had many different businesses. He had a mobile sort of cleaning unit which is basically like a car wash on wheels. And he had contracts with, you know, government. The government or like, you know, Sears, Roebuck and Cisco. And he would clean like tractor trailers and stuff like that. And he eventually sold off many of the trucks and he had, he kept one and he gave it to my brother Keith, who insisted that I work with him on the weekends. And Dennis, if you can imagine.

[Dennis Scully]

I want to imagine. I love this thought of you in the mobile cleaning unit. Please tell me more.

[Sean Henderson]

10 years old, literally 10 years old in the middle of winter. My brother would call me at 6:00 in the morning and I would pick the phone up off the cradle and just drop it and hang it up because I knew he was calling to wake me up to go to work and you know, at 6:00am it was crazy. So of course like he would pull the truck up in front of my parents house and he would pull the horn and which would wake up the entire neighborhood. So I'd have to get on my clothes and go wash tractor trailers in the middle of winter for $10 a weekend. It was full on.

[Dennis Scully]

That's what he would give you, $10 a week?

[Sean Henderson]

Yes, full on. Child labor. It was crazy. But, you know, I think it all helped to build a good work ethic.

[Dennis Scully]

And did your father ever talk to you about business or. Son, let me tell you the ABCs of being an entrepreneur. Running a business or not at all? Not at all.

[Sean Henderson]

No, no, not at all. I think, you know, we probably just learned it through, you know, osmosis and just kind of being around, you know, the, the, the business. But, you know, I, you know, I think I, I learned much of what I, you know, of how I practice from, you know, my mentors and the people that I have worked for over the years.

[Dennis Scully]

So tell me about that.

[Sean Henderson]

I worked for three different design firms before starting my own. One was this really great guy, talented guy in upstate New York and Rochester where I went to college. His name is Chris Layton. Chris was really well known for doing all of the local restaurants and he also did residential design. So I worked for him for about a year and a half or two years. And I really learned a lot about the sort of technical aspects of interior design. And so it was an incredible experience. But my long term goal was always to move to New York. I always knew that I wanted to be here. So I moved here in 1996 and I had a brief stint working for this furniture company called John Boone. I used it as an opportunity to get to New York because I wanted to be here. Turned out, like being a salesperson wasn't really, I didn't love that. And I really missed designing. So from there I went to go work for Birch Coffey, who was an amazing guy. In fact, I mean, he was, you know, I was kind of using him as an advisor. Like when I had my business back In, I think 20, like 13, 14, 15 or so, you know, kind of, kind of.

[Dennis Scully]

Oh, really? So you would reach out to him for advice and counsel. Okay, interesting. So what was he good at? What, what, what made him a good business person or a good design business?

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, I think the way that he was able to, to manage clients and the way that he kind of moved through projects, I think was super admirable. And I just remember him being so machine like and he was kind of unafraid. But, you know, learning, learning that was, was super valuable. But you know, ultimately I wanted to work for somebody whose design aesthetic that I really connected with. And that's when I was able to go work for Thad Hayes and so.

[Dennis Scully]

How did that happen? How did. How did Thad end up hiring you?

[Sean Henderson]

A funny story. So I can be pretty lucky sometimes, and I like to say that I can manifest things that. That I want to happen. So I remember seeing Dad's work in the. In the kind of front of book of Architectural Digest, and it was like one or two images of a townhouse or a brownstone in Brooklyn. And I looked at the picture and I thought, well, that. That is really pretty. I love this guy's work. I want to go work for him. And I saw this two days later, my friend Arthur Dunham, who used to run Jed Johnson, he called me up and said, hey, my friend Thad Hayes is hiring. Are you interested? And I was like, yeah, that's funny you should be calling me. So I interviewed with Thad and did not get the job. So I wrote him a handwritten thank you note, and about two weeks later, I got a call from them. They wanted to meet with me, and they offered me a job because the person that they had hired did not.

[Dennis Scully]

Work out so quickly.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, I know.

[Dennis Scully]

Who knows what happened with that person? And you were number two on the list. So you got the call.

[Sean Henderson]

That's right, I did. Yeah. I was so hungry to learn about design and to grow in the industry that I was. I. I worked really hard for him for over four years. And, you know, I did a lot of custom furniture designs for him. And that's, you know, where I started, like, designing a lot of furniture and. But I really learned a lot about the history of design and the history of furniture.

[Dennis Scully]

Hmm. Well, and I know that Thad's work resonated with you a great deal. Did you have a clear sense of your own work? Did you have a clear vision of the kind of work that you wanted to do in the early days?

[Sean Henderson]

I think I did because I was so drawn to Thad's aesthetic. I mean, I think I kind of was much more rigid. I'm not saying Thad's work is rigid. That's coming out.

[Dennis Scully]

No, but there. But there is an exactness to Thad's work.

[Sean Henderson]

There is an exact. Yes, that's a better word for it. And I think I was more like that when I first started. And I think it's fair to say that my interiors are a little bit more relaxed. I mean, there's.

[Dennis Scully]

Have you loosened up a little bit, Sean, over the years?

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, I definitely have loosened up over the years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's. It's been. It's Been a little bit more interesting for me to be more collaborative with, with my clients. You know, I, I, it's, it's so important for me that they are a part of the process and that they feel like their space is a reflection of who they are and how they want to live. And, you know, I certainly have clients that want me to create that for them and that are a little more removed from the process. And that's fun, too. But I think some of my better work is actually where clients are engaging with me and have a little bit more of a knowledge of design.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I'm always curious because, and I don't mean to point out Thad specifically, because I think a lot of designers represented this, but I felt like Thad felt like, you're going to get my work and what I do. Right. And that's why you're coming to me. And I mean, I want to hear a basic outline of what you'd like, but that, you know, you're not going to be that involved in the process. Right.

[Sean Henderson]

As a vibe I got, that is, you're exactly right with that. And, but I think that that was very much of like, that, that was how the whole industry was.

[Dennis Scully]

I feel like that was of the time, right? Yes.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah. And I mean, now, you know, for better or worse, I mean, clients are involved, right? Clients, yeah. Whether they want them to be or not.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and was that a difficult. So after Thad, was that a difficult transition for you to make with clients wanting to, or clients seeming. We talk a lot about how the Internet or how the availability of design has made clients at least think they're more knowledgeable. Whether they actually are, I'm not sure. But a lot of people think they have a lot more information and therefore knowledge and want to bounce ideas around with you. I don't know if you love that or don't.

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, well, it works when it works.

[Dennis Scully]

Says Sean very diplomatically.

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, it can be really challenging at times when, you know, a client kind of feels like they know what they're talking about, but they don't. And so, you know, that education process can be, can be really challenging at times. But, you know, I think that that's important. Like, you know, we kind of vet that out and, you know, in the interview process, so, you know, it's, it's very rare that that that kind of situation would come up where it's actually a struggle that way. Right.

[Dennis Scully]

So you get a sense in the interview process how much this person wants to participate or what they're I mean, tell me what. You. Tell me what you try out in that process.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, I think it's just listening to them and hearing them and, like, how they're talking about design and, you know, what. How they want to be involved in the project process and who makes the decisions in the house and do they come to an agreement. If it's a husband and wife or, you know, two partners, like, have, like. I want to know how that all is structured. And I think it's more of. I think it's like more of a sixth sense that I have and probably working in the restaurant business my entire childhood life that I'm sort of able to kind of pick up on people's different energy. So I know when to. When to run.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, as you were saying earlier, you worked pretty intensely for Thad for. I forget. Was it four years or five years?

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, just over four years. Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. And at the time, were you mindful of wanting to go out on your own? Was that always in the back of your mind? I remember you telling me a story when you were in school with your teacher asking, raise your hand if you want to be a famous interior designer one day. And you were the only person in the class, if I remember, who raised their hand, which I don't understand that class. And I'm glad you got out of there. But also I feel like, yes, of course you raised your hand. You're like, yes, that's why I'm here. I want to be. Of course, I want to be a big old interior designer.

[Sean Henderson]

That's absolutely right. Just really, I knew what I wanted to do from an early age, and I always just had an arbitrary goal of having my business, my own business by the time I turned 30 and I was 31, and it just felt like the right time to do it. Right. I had a couple of freelance projects that I was working on, to be exact, but it was early days. I was out of debt, and I had a little money saved, and I figured, well, I can do this. So after I quit, I promptly lost one of the projects, and I went into a panic attack. Could not leave my apartment for a weekend. So that was. That was challenging. But, you know, I persevered and things got better. And I think early on that year, I got a little bit of press. I was in House Beautiful as, like, one of the top young, you know, 25American designers or something like that. But it was good.

[Dennis Scully]

And were you thinking, what have I done? Why? Why did I leave? I mean, was it. Or was it like, oh, my goodness, I just need to figure this out.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah. Oh, my goodness, I need to figure this out. Like, how am I going to. Like, how am I going to pay my rent? How am I going to live and last, you know, with. Without this money coming in? But, you know, that's when I, you know, I remember taking on pretty much anything I could do at the time. Right. Actually, going back to Arthur Dunham. I think he recommended me to somebody that he used to work with. And, you know, she. He was kind of too busy at the time, and they were still very close friends, and so he recommended me for this. This project. And, I mean, it was not my aesthetic, really, but I. I had to do it. I needed the money. And, you know, so I did a lot of that back then.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and. And a. There's no shame in that. You got to do what you got to do. Right. And also, I mean, I've rarely spoken to someone who's found success, who can't tell you the days I had to say yes to whatever came along. Right. And hope that it led to some bigger opportunities. And in your case, it certainly did. Do you remember. I mean, you mentioned the House Beautiful press, and that certainly helped. Do you remember sort of meaningful turning points for you in the early days when you thought, oh, this is going to work. I am going to have a business and make it? Because it was a while before you hired even your first employee, if I recall.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, I mean, I think I had. After I was a year in business, I think I hired my first employee. Actually, my second employee that I hired is still working for me to this day. She's been with me for 21 years. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, I feel like I've had these conversations lately with designers who tell me about some of the early jobs that they have that looking back, like, now, we laugh, but in today's parlance, we realize, oh, my goodness, this was maybe a little toxic or a little intense or. Right. Or, I mean, crazy.

[Sean Henderson]

Yes. Do you remember the stories of Naomi left where she would, like, throw pencils out at her staff from her office or something?

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. I. I do.

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, God rest in peace.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. No, no, no. And I feel like there. I'm. I'm told that there are still a handful of firms out there where some pretty. Some pretty bad behavior is still going on. Some of them might be on. On a few of the celebrated lists in our industry. I don't know. But I was speaking recently who told me I need to be Spending more time on Glassdoor, looking up firms and reviews from former employees. But I do feel like there was both an intensity to what was expected of you at work. I remember talking to Andre Malone just recently, and he was talking about, in the early days of working for Robert Stern, you weren't leaving before 11:00 at night. And here he was, this young man in New York in a very similar situation to you, right? I mean, yeah, and it just. It seems like that was the norm, both in terms of the intensity and the hours and all of that.

[Sean Henderson]

Very much the norm, yeah. Very much the norm. And I mean, it's. I think it's. It's much different now. I think, you know, I think I want my team to have a balance. Right? I mean, I don't want them to be stressed out. And I think it's important that we're focused and getting work done within the allotted number of hours. And on the occasion that we have to work late and kick it in, then we do that. But I want to have a. Just, I don't know, I feel like I want to have a happier, healthier work environment.

[Dennis Scully]

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[Sean Henderson]

I think while I was working for Thad, you know, I was probably the last generation of designers that had to actually get out and physically shop. The Internet wasn't an option to shop back then. And, you know, we would go out and shop and take pictures with the office camera. I mean, the whole process was so long from the time you were out shopping to the time you got an answer back from the client, whether they were going to buy the piece. I mean, now it's. It's Instantaneous. Right? But those days were amazing because, you know, I was out shopping at, you know, everywhere Lobel, Modern, Donzella, Hauser, Burrows, which used to be called Antique back in the day, you know, our company, I mean, back in there when they first started out and they had a little shop in Brooklyn.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, all these people. Fred Silberman, I mean, my God, the most legendary, like, Italian design shop that, you know, I. I learned so much from Tommy, that salesperson. He's just incredible. But, you know, many of these people, like Evan Lobel, by the way, was responsible for me getting one of my very first clients. So that's, you know, I had. I had great relationships with these people. And you go back to my. My reference to being in House Beautiful. I was recommended by Anthony Mott, who used to own AM Collections. So those types of relationships are so important. And I think now it's. It's. It's very different. Right. Because everything is. Is somewhat transactional and it's, you know, over email and stuff. So, you know, I try to encourage my team as much as possible to get out and shop.

[Dennis Scully]

So coming back to the sort of turning points in your career, after you start your own firm, you get some good press. I can't remember when you first ended up on the AD100 list, something that you were recently named to the AD100 again. And congratulations on that.

[Sean Henderson]

Thank you.

[Dennis Scully]

But I feel like that happened for you. Will you tell me?

[Sean Henderson]

I think the first time that I was on the list was back in 2015 or 2016, I can't quite remember, but I was with Margaret Russell on the list, I think, once or twice. And then the first year that Amy was editor in chief, I think she had just come on board. I was on the list, then taken off the list, then back on for the past couple of years.

[Dennis Scully]

And did they tell you you were being taken off the list, or did you just certainly discover it in the magazine? Or was it.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, no, they don't. They don't really tell you. And so suddenly it's like, you see the announcement, you're like, well, and at.

[Dennis Scully]

That time, did you have an understanding of why that was? Had you not submitted projects, or was there something. I mean, I'm always curious on your end what you think goes into being there.

[Sean Henderson]

I think it's doing consistent, good work, but I also think it's. It's a relationship that you sort of have to have to maintain. And, you know, I think. I think I was never really great at that kind of pr type of relationship. And, you know, I say all this because, you know, I don't. I'm not at all a disingenuous person. And so, you know, I. I have a great relationship with Amy and everybody at ad, but, you know, I. I think I have just gotten to a different place in my. My life and in my career, and I just. I feel calmer and probably a little bit more secure and. And I feel like I've got, you know, an amazing team that I built, and I'm able to now focus more time on other things. And, you know, PR is an important thing. It really is.

[Dennis Scully]

You got to do it, it turns out. Yeah, you got to do it.

[Sean Henderson]

You got to do it.

[Dennis Scully]

You drop off the list if you're not doing the outreach. That's right. Right. And, yeah, I mean, it's a real thing, but it's interesting. It sounds as though, not that it means less, but it has a different meaning for you today. We've been talking about it recently on the show, how the impact or the meaning of that list and what it means at any given time. It's clear that it is still so significant. Even in a shelter media world, that has changed a great deal. And most designers will tell you, oh, a project gets published, it doesn't have nearly the impact, maybe in terms of making the phone ring or the new projects come in that it might have 10 years ago, but still, there's something about the AD100 that has a certain cachet, a stamp of approval that is meaningful no matter where your career is.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, it definitely does, for sure. I feel like every time that I have been lucky enough to get published, that you don't necessarily see the direct impact of being published or even being on one of these lists. I think that what. What has happened to me throughout my career is that, you know, back in the day when things were less online, like, somebody would have torn out my project from a magazine, and they're calling me, you know, five years, you know, later or three years later, you know, when their children have moved out of the house and they're actually ready to do a new project, or after their pet has passed away and they need to, you know, replace everything. And so that's like that. That, I think still kind of happens. Right. So, you know, the. I think general awareness of me and my business has certainly grown right, by, you know, by being published and by being included on these lists. And, you know, I think with, of course, social media and Instagram, like, you know, a lot of us are in Charge of our own sort of editorial, sort of npr. But so it's great, I think, to kind of have these things to kind of to feed into Instagram and stuff. And it's nice to kind of keep that ball rolling, to have fresh, new, interesting stuff to be talking about versus just showing pretty pictures over and over again.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, no, no, no, absolutely. One of the things I'm curious about is I feel like, particularly this past year, but in the last few years, a lot of younger, lesser known firms showing up on some of these lists. And I wonder what your reaction is to that and if that makes sense to you.

[Sean Henderson]

I think that I just want to reiterate. I think for these younger firms to be on the list is so amazing. I know that we all know the feeling to. To have been, to be included. And, you know, I think that what AD is great at is kind of forecasting things that we may not even necessarily know, like, what's happening. Right. Like, I, you know, I think I'm in like this, you know, I think an old school sort of mindset because of, you know, when I started my career and who I worked for and, you know, that, you know, I feel like I've kind of put my time in and earned my stripes and. But I understand certain people have a different path, and so I think that they are. Everyone at AD is probably looking at different types of design trends, and I would assume that's how they're making their decisions to include people on the list. I think there's a different thirst for new, fresh, young, different.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. So it sounds like you feel like it just represents something different today because it's got a. It's got a mix.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, that makes sense. I'm curious about it. I mean, often when I'm. When I'm at the New York School of Interior Design and I. And I interview designers there, we inevitably end up having this question about better to go work for another designer for. For a handful of years to get that experience. I always feel like most seasoned designers feel like, yes, if you can go work in Bunny Williams office or David Kleinberg's office or Thad Hayes's office. Absolutely. Go do that if you can.

[Sean Henderson]

Dennis, I could not agree more. And I think, you know, I've said this so much over the years that I think it's so important for everyone to apprentice. Right. I think that to understand how a business is run, to understand the history of design and, you know, I know some of some of this stuff can Be. You can be. You can kind of learn and absorb on your own if you have a hunger and thirst, you know, for that type of knowledge. But you know that the practical aspect of working in a design firm and you know, to understand how projects are run and managed and you know, is, is I think, super, super important. I talk to people all the time who want to switch into, you know, switch careers, get into interior design and you know, I give them as much advice as I can. And one of the, one of those things is, is go work for somebody, be their librarian, be their intern, do whatever you, you can to get in the door and start, you know, learning and, and growing and absorbing everything.

[Dennis Scully]

And you, and you, you don't discourage them from coming into interior design.

[Sean Henderson]

I would never do that. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I mean, I think it's, I mean, listen, it's not for the faint of heart, but.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, because it is intense, right?

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, it is intense and it's very different than it was, you know, 20 years ago when I started my business. It's, it's, it's a really challenging time, I think, to, to, to start a business and be a decorator. I mean, it's hard.

[Dennis Scully]

Does it feel like the industry itself and the demands of the job are more intense today? And if so, how so?

[Sean Henderson]

I think it is way more intense today. And I don't know if that is just a symptom of how fast we are moving in every aspect of our lives or if it's just industry related. I mean, I think it's. Stuff is so expensive right now. Everything is so much more expensive than it ever used to be. And so I think that the pressure for things to go right and is, is immense. Right? And you know, it's, it's really, it can be an intense process, you know, while working on a, on a project and making sure that, you know, you can, you can have gone and seen, you know, the, the pieces in the workroom, but then when they get to the, the project and you know, wherever it is across the country, you know, something could have happened to it and it's, it's. Yeah, that's always the scary part for, for what I, for what I do.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so, so help me understand that better. Help me understand the relationship between how much more expensive things are and how much more intense it makes everything. Is it. Because you have to work even harder to convince these clients to be okay with the fact that, yes, this is really, really expensive, but it's going to be Worth it. Do you feel you have to sort of sell it more to people today because things are so much more expensive and therefore it creates this tension around it or how do those things go together? I guess is my question.

[Sean Henderson]

Dennis, I think that's a really good question. And I'm wondering now, I feel like this is a therapy session. But, you know, I'm wonder now if this is just more self imposed, right. Because I know what these things are costing and I can't believe they're paying $20,000 for a sofa. I want to make sure that this is going to be flawless for them. Right. They don't need to see how the sausage is being made. I want them to think it's all magic and that just comes out pretty and they're going to live happily ever after in their home. But, you know, so I think, I think it's. I think it's all more self imposed. Right.

[Dennis Scully]

So you're feeling that?

[Sean Henderson]

I'm feeling it, yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes. Because you know, how, how much, how much it is. Listen, I mean, people outside of our world and you talk about a $20,000 sofa and they look at you like you have three heads. Who would ever. Who would do that? Why would someone have a $20,000 sofa? And yet to us, it's like, well, what do you mean? You gotta go to the workroom. How much do you think sofa's gonna be?

[Sean Henderson]

I know, like absolutely crazy. I mean, I, you know, even like shipping, moving, storage costs are like two and a half times what they were a couple of years ago. So. Yeah, it's just suddenly like it has gotten very expensive to do interior design.

[Dennis Scully]

And not just a little bit. I mean, it was so interesting that inflation was such a talking point in the most recent elections and people were talking about the price of eggs and the incoming president referred to the price of bacon quite a bit during the, during the campaign. But I feel like in our industry, prices aren't just up a little. I mean, I feel double, triple in many cases. Even just from a few years ago.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, absolutely, yes. I mean, ever since COVID Right. I think things have gotten crazily expensive.

[Dennis Scully]

And I don't feel as though the demand. Take a workroom, for example. The really good workrooms still seem to be very busy. They have a backlog. They're charging what they're charging. And I don't see those prices going down.

[Sean Henderson]

No, not at all. The prices definitely are not going down. And in fact, they're all so busy still. I mean, lead times are astronomical right now. I mean, it takes us 24 weeks to get a sofa made.

[Dennis Scully]

So does that create an opportunity? And we were just recently talking about RH because they just came out with their recent earnings and they were talking about they're opening up an interior design business and they're doing, and they're opening up all these big new galleries. Does that create an opportunity for a retailer like rh? Because sometimes maybe you don't want to have to wait that long. Or is there a client that would be willing to settle for RH in lieu of what you might make for them? What's your, what's your sense?

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, you know, I do think that there is an opportunity there, you know, to, for. Because people don't love waiting. I mean we, we are working on a lot of ground up construction so we can plan ahead and like we have the time and the luxury to wait for, you know, 24 weeks for, for a sofa. But you know, there are, you know, projects that are probably, you know, where it's kind of straight up decorating and you need stuff immediately. I think there's definitely a hole in the market for, for readily available stuff, whether it's RH or CB2 or whatever it is. You know, it's, it's, it's often nice to kind of work a little bit faster in that sense. I mean, you know, my early days in New York, I remember, you know, I mean, it was, I would do these little, little projects and we would, we were so organized about them and super efficient and you know, I was super profitable in my, in my early days with a very small team and low overhead and, but you know, I was able to kind of burn through these projects really quickly, which was, which was fun and great, you know, but, but kind of smart and profitable too.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and, and so is that, is that harder to do today because you've got a bigger team and you've got a bigger. Everything is just more overhead for you.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, I think we are. And we are also just working on, you know, much different projects, much larger scale stuff and you know, that, that we, we have time and you know, I have a big team and so our projects, we will take on projects of all different budgets, depends on what type of project it is and how interesting it is to me and where we are with our workload. Right. So yeah, so it's, I think, I think that's, that's part of.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta, Ernesta's designer quality custom size Rugs are the foundation to an elevated space. Help your clients transform their homes by joining Ernesta's trade program. As a member of the Ernesta trade program, you'll get preferred pricing, free unlimited 12x12 samples, and dedicated services such as a personal account manager and a trade only website. To learn more about joining this exclusive program, head to ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh and now back to the show. Coming back to our therapy session, I want to talk about you. I want to know. I want to talk about. Because coming back to how much more intense the industry feels today. I was having a conversation recently with an advisor to high end interior designers and I was asking him, are designers looking for an exit in the same way? I sensed that many designers that I was speaking to over the years, they were trying to develop some kind of a side business, hoping that one day they wouldn't have to perhaps have as many clients or any clients and they could do their own thing and that would be their escape from this very demanding world. Is that how you think about it for yourself? Do you have some end goal that looks very different than what you're doing today or is this what you want to be doing and this is what you want?

[Sean Henderson]

I am right now doing exactly what I want to be doing. But I do talk to my financial planner and I call it dabbling in decorating. So that's, that's what I want. That's the stage I want to do in the future.

[Dennis Scully]

You want to be able to just dabble?

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, exactly. I want to be able to work on the projects that I want to work on and for whom I want to work with. Right, that's.

[Dennis Scully]

And so with your financial advisor. Not that I want to get into the intricacies of your personal finance, but so do you say, okay, listen, I need to have X million in the bank and then I feel like I can step back and I mean, is there some level that you feel you'll get to and then you'll feel comfortable?

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a strategy in place to get there.

[Dennis Scully]

There is, yeah. Okay.

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, I've got a lot of work to do.

[Dennis Scully]

Well. And so in the meantime. Okay, so that's great. So you've got this go. And so part of it is to dabble in design. Right. To be able to take on what you want. How do you not burn out in the meantime?

[Sean Henderson]

It happens sometimes. Right. And I find when I overextend myself in those moments that that does kind of have a ripple effect into how well I tolerate the more stressful situations at work. You know, if I'm not properly rested then, or not exercising or not eating well or had too many cocktails at a client dinner, I feel like that will always impact my performance. So I try to have a nice balance as much as I can with.

[Dennis Scully]

All of that stuff and also keeping that long term goal of yours in mind. And do you find that helps just knowing that, yes, I've got this plan and this is intense right now, but I know what I'm looking forward to 10 years from now.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, that definitely, definitely having that goal in mind is, is sort of a good driver for me. I mean, you know, it's also like, you know, why I have built my team up to, to, you know, where we are right now and you know.

[Dennis Scully]

Which is where for. For people that aren't familiar.

[Sean Henderson]

So I have 14 people that work for me, including myself full time and then I have a few freelance part time advisors.

[Dennis Scully]

Advisors.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah. So I have a bookkeeper who's a, who's got freelance, who does all the financial stuff and a freelance business business person as well. Business director.

[Dennis Scully]

So what does the business director do?

[Sean Henderson]

So mostly HR stuff right now and she is kind of my, my go to slash therapist when, when there are issues with clients and contractual things that we need to review. But a lot of HR stuff. In fact, we have known each other. Tricia and I used to work together at Thad Hayes's office. So I've known her for. Since 1998. I mean incidentally, my studio director Jim is he and I also work together at Thad Hayes.

[Dennis Scully]

Jim Fairfax.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, Jim Fairfax. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

A name I remember. Well, that's interesting that you've got quite a few people in your orbit. It sounds like who you've been with for a long time. Yes, because one of the things that I've spoken about with a lot of people recently and whether it was Covid caused this big shakeup and lots of people moved or lots of people became focused on other priorities. I sensed from a lot of people that there was tumult in the workplace of one kind or another. And I wonder if you had to go through that or figure out some different things with your team. I wonder and I ask that in part trying to better understand what people want and need today to stay.

[Sean Henderson]

Wow, this is such a big topic for me, I think because I think over the years I've evolved so much. Dennis was never a great manager with my team that, you know, I would always try, right? And. But I was, you know, I was a little afraid of telling people what to do, you know, being too bossy. And, you know, I didn't really own my authority, for lack of a better word, you know. Yeah. And, you know, and then I've had. I've had, like, some real ups and downs. And, you know, I remember, I think you and I talked about briefly, like, back in 2012 or 13, I had. I had started to grow my business, and I. I think I went through, like, a little midlife crisis. I. I got to a point where I was so overwhelmed with. With the size of my business and my overhead and, you know, the rent that I was paying. And, you know, I had done this massive build out of this office space on West 36th street, and I hated it all. I. I was not ready for it back then. You know, this was back back in 2000 and 2013, I think, or so. And I can remember, like, this was kind of when I was. Started getting really great projects and I started to get like Margaret was publishing me in ad. And I remember I did not take. I couldn't take on any new projects. I just was finding fault in everything and kept turning everything away. And I got to this point where I suddenly legitimately didn't have any work. And I remember having to lay off most of my team, except for, you know, Rachel, who, you know, is my one employee that had, had, had, has been with me for 21 years. And so it was. It was a really hard time. And fortunately, I had been profitable the years prior, so I, financially was okay, but, you know, I needed. I had to lay people off in order to. To save money. So since then, having grown my business and being, I think, just in a much better place, personally, I feel like now in my 50s, I feel like I've. I feel like the dust has settled.

[Dennis Scully]

What do you find helped you get through that period? Did you seek out counsel of some kind? Did you. Did you look to other places of learning to help you to figure it out and navigate, or did a partner help you? I mean, what was meaningful for you?

[Sean Henderson]

I think it was probably therapy, personal therapy. I'm not even kidding. Like, personal therapy. And also just the work that I have done on myself. I think I am just more settled and in my skin and present and, you know, I think there's. There's a beauty. There's such a beauty in that, that. That comes with. With age and growing. Getting older. So, yeah, for. For better or worse, right? I mean, it's it's nice because I. I feel like the stuff that bothered me, you know, back in 2013, I mean. I mean, it's just. I just. I wish I had had a better. I was in a better headspace to manage it all, because it's never fun to go through those moments. Right. It's never fun to lay anybody off. But, you know, I think, you know, I try to be. You know, I think I'm a. I try to be a good person, and, you know, I'm not a monster to work for. So, you know, and just kind of speak from the heart. And, you know, ultimately, you know, the onus is on me to, like, decide who I want to be, how I want to run a business, and, you know, what kind of message am I sending out there? Right. You know what? But I think, as I said earlier, it's important for me to be respected and to be respectful, and I try to. I think if you behave that way, if you communicate that way, if I communicate that way with my team, I hope that they will then carry that on and do that to others as well.

[Dennis Scully]

Right. It seems like, in part. And I'm going to bring this back to an aesthetic conversation that I want to have with you. You've developed a recognizable look that I think many people admire, and now I'm going to butter you up. But I think that I rarely speak to someone that doesn't say, oh, yeah, Sean Henderson's work. I mean, his work is amazing. And I think there's a value in the level of work and the look of the work that you have created that goes beyond what the nuts and bolts of how many clients you have at any given time, but to just be able to have all of that work as part of the. The value of a firm going forward, and so many people recognize it and admire it. And I wonder, part of what I'm trying to ask is there seems to be an inherent value in that also. Hey, Sean, have you noticed how people have really come to recognize your work? And how does that feel? And do you feel stylistically that you set out to create a certain look and feel over the years?

[Sean Henderson]

Oh, my God, Dennis, this is really funny. So I have struggled over the years, and not so much anymore, with this very thing. I always wanted to be one of those designers that if you opened up a magazine and you saw a picture, you'd be like, oh, that's Sean Henderson's work.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Sean Henderson]

I don't think that I'm that type of designer.

[Dennis Scully]

You don't think You've done that.

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, you look at Shelton Mandel's work, you look at Stephen Gambrel's work, you know that immediately when you see one of their projects, right?

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Sean Henderson]

Two things happen, though, like a. I've come to terms with the fact that I, you know, my work is a little bit adaptable, and that, to me, is so important for me as a designer and just my. My desire to keep learning and growing and, you know, kind of evolving. Right. But when I did my book back in 2021, it was published, I can remember Stephen Kent Johnson photographed my projects, and that's the first time that I looked at all of my work, like, on. All at once. I was like, oh, wow, there's a common thread here. And it really was the first time that became. I became aware of that, and it was, you know, it's. You know, for me, I think it's more about the feeling that I create in these interiors. And, you know, because, like, some will skew more modern, you know, some, you know, mountain house and some more country, but there's. There's a sense of appropriateness, I think, to the space that I want to create. Right. I think that's why I call my book Interiors in Context, because it's all contextual. Right. It all has to have make sense for me. I think anything other than that for me is. Is like just decorating for decorating sake. Right. You know, I have to have a reason behind everything that I'm doing. Otherwise, I can't really pitch it or sell it or stand by it to a client.

[Dennis Scully]

Earlier, you were talking about when you were working for. For Thad was when you first really began to design a lot of custom furniture. And I feel as though your furniture selection is such a key part of what is identifiable and consistent about your work. There's a sophistication level of the pieces of furniture that you mix in so seamlessly. And that's, I think, part of it. And I'm trying to articulate it, but, I mean, I can't put my finger on it.

[Sean Henderson]

I know it's a little nuanced, and I think it's. You know, that was. That was. I think partly it's innate, and I think it's from learning specifically from Thad, really, about proportion and scale. And it's one thing that I think is. Is it that many people are challenged with and they can do, like, a pretty interior, but, boy, the arm on that sofa is kind of fat. You know what I mean? I mean, maybe it's just my personal taste, but I feel like. I feel like that's one thing that I really focus on. Yeah, they don't tell you that in school at all. Yeah, no, I mean, the design portion is a very small percentage of what we're doing on a day to day basis.

[Dennis Scully]

And is that a struggle for you? A lot of designers say to me, when I tell you how little time I actually get to spend doing design versus X, Y and Z, a million other things. Does that make it harder for you or you recognize, oh, well, welcome to the world. This is what it's really like when you have a business.

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, I've come to terms with that. It's very different than how it used to be. Right. So right now I delegate more and I have more internal meetings with my team who are really doing the groundwork for me based on our conversations or what. You know, the inspiration is that we're setting for a project. But, you know, as I mentioned, I'm focusing on so many other aspects of the business, you know, trying to keep all the balls in the air that, you know, it's. It doesn't always make sense for me to, you know, just be sitting there like drawing a sofa. I sometimes miss those days where, you know, I would sit with, you know, graph paper and, like draw these things out and it doesn't happen that much anymore, you know, and a little bit of this kind of laziness and kind of wanting it done faster and I could like do a horrible hand sketch and give it to somebody that can draw it on the computer for me, you know. Yeah. But, yeah, it's definitely very different now.

[Dennis Scully]

In saying that where do you wish things were going? Do you want to do. I think you and I have talked in the past, you would love to be doing some furniture collection for somebody or doing some more licensing. You're doing a bit of that?

[Sean Henderson]

Yes, I'm doing a bit of that now. I did a collection with Ilbasante Leather where I designed two different collections of leather trays and storage boxes. And right now I've got a couple of things in the works. I have a rug collection that I'm doing with Alt for Living, and I'm also working on a collection of these bespoke lamps with my friend and colleague Mike Ruffles. Stuff, some interesting stuff. So. But I want to do more. I would love to do more of the licensing and design and I think that is, I mean, more than to just have like a licensing agreement. I think it's really fulfilling creatively to do these things. So I think it's that that could be something that, you know, develops over the next few years that will also help, you know, help me dabble in decorating.

[Dennis Scully]

Dabble in decorating. Well, exactly. And that was related to that earlier conversation about what's the long term goal. Somebody was referring to it as mailbox money to me the other day, you know, just having.

[Sean Henderson]

Right, that's a great, great term for it. Yeah, yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Just that nice check coming in from whatever licensing deal. I noticed in your AD100 video you said, no, boucle is not going away. Who. Who was asking you that question and what. Who was ever suggesting it? What?

[Sean Henderson]

Haven't you heard that like everyone. Like you see it everywhere, that boucle is dead. And I think it's so stupid. Like it is so stupid. Like who what? No, stop.

[Dennis Scully]

I mean, I. I don't know where people are getting that idea.

[Sean Henderson]

I know.

[Dennis Scully]

I just look no further than Anneliese Taft or. Or Rosemary Halgarden and they are selling.

[Sean Henderson]

Lots of boucle right there of.

[Dennis Scully]

That's a lot of boucle that's in those circles. Absolutely, yes. I think people might have been referring to that perhaps overexposed ivory boucle that everyone sees on.

[Sean Henderson]

That's exactly what they're talking about. I know, I know. But you know, I think the entire category of boucle got folded into that, in my opinion. And so somebody needed to stand up for Boucle.

[Dennis Scully]

I loved that. Was you taking possession on it. I. We have the footage of it now and that will be. We'll be playing that back on a regular basis. No, according to Sean Henderson, no, boucle is not going away. And I think it's only getting elevated, which is what it needs. It needs to distance itself.

[Sean Henderson]

It does indeed. Right. Yes, yes.

[Dennis Scully]

And that's really what it is. And I think you can help with that. Boucle could ask for no better spokesperson than you to.

[Sean Henderson]

Mission accepted. I'm on it. Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

I wonder, in closing, Sean, we just were talking about licensing and we were talking about other things you'd like to be doing from a creative perspective. I wonder, is there a kind of project that you wish would come your way that you're longing to take on?

[Sean Henderson]

Yeah, I definitely want to do a restaurant and. Or a hotel. I think that that is the kind of next logical thing step for me. I think just given my background and knowledge of the hospitality industry and you know, I think that the sort of trends and what's happening in the hospitality world and, you know, these sort of, you know, warmer, more interesting design focused spaces. I think that would be really fun and satisfying to work on.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I'm, I'm really glad about that and I'm glad we, we had this opportunity to talk and you're so kind to make the, make the time.

[Sean Henderson]

It's such a pleasure.

[Dennis Scully]

And I hope you don't feel it was too much like a therapy session, but also maybe really good that it was a bit of a therapy.

[Sean Henderson]

I mean, I might need a martini right now. No, I'm kidding. No, it was great. It was so fun talking to you. Thank you.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.