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Business of Home Podcast
The secret to Young Huh's success? Patience
00:57:05
The celebrated interior designer shares the story of her career
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- [00:04]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Yeong Heng. He went out on her own in 2007 and spent the first decade in business building a firm and honing her skills. In 2019, her room for the Kips Bay Show House was a breakout success, taking Young's career to the next level. Since then, she's been named to the AD100 and her first book, A Mood, A Thought, A Feeling, comes out. In March, I spoke with Young about helping to launch the Asian American Pacific Islander Design alliance, why she handed off social media to a consultant, and why her advice to young designers is be patient and try everything. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. At Ernesta, there's a true belief in the transformative power of interior design. Founded with the desire to make getting the custom size rug easier, faster and more affordable. Ernesta simplifies the process by hand, selecting quality materials and styles that appeal to nearly every sense and delivering each rug in as little as two weeks. Join Ernesta's trade program to lay the foundation to your projects with ease. Apply for membership today@ernesta.com BOH and now on with the show.
- [01:52]
B
This is also just so funny because remember at Holiday House, you had taken my faucet handle and it was one of those goosenecks things and you were like using it as a microphone and you were entertaining everyone in the room and I was like, you need to be an entertainment.
- [02:15]
A
And Young Ha said, you need a podcast, young man. And I honestly. And I have a picture of that moment because I think we shared it on social I. I think that's actually when the business of home Podcast was born, was me speaking into the gooseneck faucet of your room.
- [02:33]
B
The Holiday House.
- [02:33]
A
Yes.
- [02:34]
B
Yes. So you should thank me for your flourishing career.
- [02:37]
A
Well, I do, Young Ha. And I give thanks to you at the beginning of every year. Similar to the Korean ritual which I want to talk about with you and your family, I bow down before you and give thanks to you playing such an instrumental role in getting all of this started. But I do actually want to talk about. So is it sebe? Is that.
- [03:05]
B
Yes.
- [03:06]
A
So tell me about. Because I was so charmed by the images that you shared of this ritual of showing respect to your elders at the beginning of the year. Tell me what that's all about.
- [03:19]
B
So the way we celebrate New Year's is you clean the house, the Day before you prepare a feast. And as soon as you wake up, we all wear, you know, nice clothes and we bow to our elders and receive New Year's blessings from them. And then we give them New Year's wishes as well. And they give us money.
- [03:48]
A
Love it.
- [03:49]
B
And then we do that for the next generation. Our children bow to us and then at the end, the contemporaries bow to each other. So everyone of that generation, so if I had cousins, we would bow to each other and wish each other good luck and you know, and we, that's a time for us to say like, hey, good luck with the book, good luck with your new venture, good luck with school and stay healthy and well. So it's really a lovely way to start the new year. And then we all have rice cake soup and we have like a big meal afterwards to celebrate.
- [04:34]
A
Well, I think that's wonderful that you're sharing that with your own children. And it seems as if that Korean heritage is a central part of who you are and how you come at the world. I loved the pictures of you as a little girl in your book in your grandparents garden. But tell me about the early days. Being born in Seoul and then later coming to America.
- [05:01]
B
I still have memories of my grandparents home when I was three and playing there and then coming to the United States. My parents immigrated. Actually half of my father's medical school class immigrated to the United States. The Asian Exclusion act was lifted and so the United States was looking for foreign doctors. They didn't have enough doctors in the Midwest. So basically half my father's medical class ended up in Michigan. So there was a really high number of Korean doctors in Michigan. So they had a really nice community. But everyone was sort of spread apart. So I was really surrounded by American culture. And you know, in the Midwest people are so kind. There's so much like upset about how Americans behave and blah, blah, blah. But go anywhere else in the world, no one is as welcoming or as kind as Americans. So, you know, I grew up with that Midwest warmth, you know, not to say there wasn't racism and struggles, but overall people were very warm and kind. And I grew up in Michigan being the only Korean kid in school. As I got older, it's something that my parents really instilled in me to love the culture, the Korean culture. I went to Korea every summer growing up, so I saw my grandparents every summer and extended family. So it was definitely a part of me that I wanted to express and enjoy and share as I grew in my business and in every single way.
- [07:14]
A
Well, and let's talk about growing in your business, because you, like many who have come to the world of interior design, had a different career path originally. Perhaps some family pressure to be a doctor or a lawyer was applied to you in your youth. Yes.
- [07:34]
B
Oh, yeah. When I was growing up, my parents said I had two choices for a career. It was either doctor or lawyer. And they always said, no one's going to hire an Asian woman who's anything but a doctor or a lawyer. So, you know, the plan was for me to go to law school, but unbeknownst to them, they sent me to one of the finest art schools in the country.
- [08:02]
A
I was going to say Cranbrook is not filling your head with notions of being a lawyer. Yeah.
- [08:08]
B
So they had no idea that it was such an important art school. And, you know, they had no idea why I was taking so many art classes. But, you know, when I went to Smith College afterwards, I did take some classes in government, and I thought I would go to law school. But I also took a lot of art history classes, and they were profoundly inspiring. And I sort of pretended they weren't as important as they were, but they were just unbelievably rich classes that still inspire me today. So, you know, I always knew I wanted to come to New York, I think, to be close to the arts culture. So I went to Fordham Law School. And the first week of law school, I knew it wasn't for me. I was like, oh, my God, this is such a mistake. It was just, you know, the introduction, and I was like, this is. This is so not for me.
- [09:24]
A
Just even hearing them explain what it was going to be like. And you were immediately, nope, nope, not for me. But you were so dutiful. You were so. I mean, you were trying to please your parents, and you stuck it out. You could have walked out that very minute.
- [09:39]
B
Yeah, well, to be honest, they also bribed me. They were like, we'll pay for. We'll pay for your rent and your living expenses if you finish the semester. And I was like, well, I'm going to go out on my own next semester. And they're like, well, just this semester, you know? And so that's how I actually ended up finishing. And then it was like, oh, well, you finished school. Why don't you take the. The bar exam? And then I was like, you know what? Yes, I'm going to take the bar exam because I. I put so much into this damn schooling. Yes, I'm gonna. I'm gonna pass the bar. So I Actually passed the New Jersey and New York bar. And my husband was driving me to the New Jersey bar exam, and he was like, you know, this is a waste of time. You're never gonna practice. I know you. You're gonna do something creative. This is a waste of time. Nonetheless, my parents were so proud of me that I passed the bar. And, yeah, I guess I did it for them. Really?
- [10:41]
A
Yeah. It's a remarkable story. And you carried it all the way through. And if I remember, you clerked in the New York Supreme Court, right?
- [10:49]
B
Yes.
- [10:50]
A
So, I mean, you did practice law for a time.
- [10:55]
B
Yes, for a hot second.
- [10:58]
A
For a hot second. And then the story goes that you're at a cocktail party and you meet a chat with an interior designer. Is that right?
- [11:09]
B
Yes. And, you know, I was really trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. And when I met this designer, I was like, oh, wow, I could do this. And it just, like light bulbs flashed.
- [11:26]
A
Do you remember who this was or do you remember what they. What they said?
- [11:29]
B
Yes, yes. His name was Jarrett Yoshida. He was a friend of my husband's. And I begged him for an internship. And, you know, basically he gave me an internship for a very short time. And then, you know, I took classes at Parsons and eventually went out on my own.
- [11:57]
A
So you passed the bar in New York and New Jersey, but nonetheless, 2007, if I recall, you hang out a shingle. And what was the thinking at the time? Did you have a project? Tell me how it was all going to happen for you?
- [12:14]
B
I had friends who wanted me to work on their homes, and I felt that I wasn't quite ready to do this. But, you know, my husband being he actually is a practicing lawyer, he said, you know, you really need to have a business structure because, you know, you need to be protected from liability and all that proper grown up stuff.
- [12:44]
A
Good for him for laying all that out, all the liability issues.
- [12:48]
B
He was like, you can't just go to people's houses and start helping them and exchange money, not have a business. And he was like, okay, you're probably right. So he actually helped set up my llc and he gave me a little seed money and I hired an assistant. And I just remember the first day of my business being so overwhelmed because I had to open something like 200 trade accounts with all the different fabric houses, et cetera, that I just lay on the floor and started crying.
- [13:29]
A
Did you?
- [13:30]
B
Yes. It was so overwhelming. It was so overwhelming. But, you know, we got it done and we survived opening all Those trade accounts.
- [13:43]
A
And back in the day, people wanted bank references and all of that.
- [13:49]
B
Right.
- [13:49]
A
And they weren't always so friendly to young designers that hadn't placed any orders yet or didn't really have a history.
- [13:57]
B
It was extremely intimidating because, first of all, back in those days, I didn't see any Asian designers. And, you know, and people were like, who are you? You know, it was a very, you know, generally WASPy business, and it was a good thing that I grew up with a lot of WASPy people. So I went. So I knew how to navigate that. But it was not a welcoming space necessarily.
- [14:30]
A
Do you remember when it became more welcoming for you or. I mean, did that really take a long time or.
- [14:38]
B
I mean, it was definitely, like, there were definitely people who were so kind to me when I was, you know, an intern and then assistant. And those relationships were always. They kept growing and people move showroom to showroom. And as you know, our business is all about relationships. So, you know, those relationships were built over time. And, you know, just like you and me, we remember that first holiday house where you're, you know, playing around with.
- [15:16]
A
My faucet slash microphone, interviewing you with kitchen faucet. Yes, that is. That is true. That is true. That was part of our bond. Part of our early bond.
- [15:28]
B
Yes. Yes. So those relationships really grew and grew and. And. And eventually flourished and became very close and warm.
- [15:38]
A
I'm always trying to think of what. What are key turning points for. For people, and I feel like you're one of those people for whom the Kips Bay Show House, you had two very memorable rooms. One which I think really jettisoned you into a different stratosphere. But even the previous room, and I can't remember if that was around 2014.
- [16:03]
B
Yeah, 2014. Basically, I applied to do Kips Bay, and Nazira called me and said, I have some good news and I have some bad news. The good news is we'd love for you to do Kips Bay. The bad news is we're giving you a freight hallway and, you know, maybe come take a look and make sure you want to do this.
- [16:30]
A
Come and inspect this area that you may or may not find suitable.
- [16:36]
B
But yeah, it was a freight hallway with two service bathrooms and lots of metal doors for storage. And I was like, listen, I'll take it. And my idea was to cover everything up and upholster it in some really fabulous hollyhock hand block print. And miraculously, Lee Jofa agreed to do that with me. It was a lot of hollyhock, but the funny thing is, Tony Ingrow had the room just outside of mine and his contractors, you know, because it was a freight hallway, they assumed that was where all the garbage got dumped. So every single day, there were bags and bags of garbage from Tony in Grau's room. And eventually I found Tony. I'm like, tony, guess what? What? This is actually a room. It's not the garbage room. It's my room. And he's like, oh, my God. I'm so sorry.
- [17:41]
A
I didn't imagine that this is actually the Hollyhock Lounge. Okay. This isn't the garbage room, Tony.
- [17:49]
B
This isn't the garbage room. They were all very embarrassed and then also felt very sorry for me.
- [17:57]
A
Yes, yes. But also, I'm sure they no doubt admired how you transformed that freight area into the Hollyhock Lounge in the way that you did. Once the garbage was finally removed, it turned out to be a lovely space.
- [18:13]
B
Yes. Everyone was so kind. So kind.
- [18:16]
A
And then fast forward years later, I think it was five years later, if I recall the room that was the star of that house. And honestly. And I don't know how you feel about this, and you're very modest. I know, but I feel like that room, the 2019 room, was the last time that there was just something that really blew up and everybody was talking about that space. And we should. Yeah, no, no. It was incredibly memorable. And all your friends who helped.
- [18:49]
B
Yeah, yes, I definitely enlisted. Requested a lot of help.
- [18:57]
A
There were a lot of artist assistants for that artist studio.
- [19:01]
B
Yes. I basically, you know, we were still a really small studio at the time, and, you know, we. We ran out of money. Kips Bay is very expensive. We had to spend. We had an unexpected electric problem. And even though we had lighting donations, the actual electrical work was our responsibility. And it was something like $40,000. And that was on top of all the other things that we had to pay for. So I asked my friends, like, would they paint some lampshades? And it was Alberta's idea. He's like, we just need to get some, you know, tempera paint and some cheap lampshades. And we just all. I think my studio was like 250 square feet at the time. We all squeezed in. It was Danielle Kolding, Nick Olson, and Audrey Marguerite. And we all just painted these lampshades. And. And I remember when we were taking the house, when the house was done at the end, people were asking me if they could buy the lampshades, and I just started giving them as. As gifts to people.
- [20:15]
A
Well, it was very Tom Sawyer's Fence. And you just enlisting everyone to help paint the lampshades and the caliber of people, as you just described, that were doing this on your behalf. It was such a great scene. And as I say, that room, I mean, that room was just such a huge hit, got so much press. This was back in the day when the Kips Bay room still got so much attention and photography. And did it mark a meaningful turning point for you?
- [20:48]
B
Yes. I mean, we decided to just do something wild to please ourselves. And, you know, the first round of Kips Bay, I spent so much time at the house, and my husband and I decided right after the opening we were going to go to Sweden. So the next day we flew out and when I arrived. When we arrived in Sweden, my phone blew up and it was just like, there were so many posts about the house and about the room, and I was just not expecting that. And everyone was like, where are you? Where are you? We're looking for you. Where are you?
- [21:33]
A
This is a moment where Nazeera would like to come on and say, please don't leave the country after you've just launched your Kips Bay room.
- [21:42]
B
Yes.
- [21:42]
A
Don't fly off to Sweden when it turns out you've got the star room in the house and everyone wants to talk to you about it.
- [21:50]
B
Yeah. And we had no idea. And we were. And people were messaging me and saying, like, oh, people are crediting your room to this French designer, and blah, blah. And everyone was trying to correct. All my friends were on it and saying, this is Young Hu's room. She did this room. But it was. It was very exciting. And we were really surprised. Really, really surprised, because I just wasn't really expecting people to. For it to resonate so much because.
- [22:25]
A
At that point, I mean, had people seen that many projects from you? Did people really understand the work that you were doing?
- [22:31]
B
Well, I think that, you know, your reputation is something that grows over time. There are definitely people who become, you know, overnight stars. I'm sure I am not one of them. It was just a very slow step by step, by step build and by the. You know, and. And the thing is, like, the reason why you do something like Kips Bay is that, you know, you. You get a chance to express yourself in design in a way that you can't do with a client. And, you know, for me, those projects and, like, my own home, those are places where I can really stretch my design wings and do something that's entirely imaginative. I don't have a client to please. I Don't have even necessarily the practical considerations. So I can do something that is just completely imaginative. And I think that's why people should do show houses. Not only to support the important charities, but this is your time to stretch your design wings and really go for it.
- [23:52]
A
And I'm surprised to that point. Young, how many designers say to me, I actually struggle without having the client, without having this person to please or a very clear directive of what they want. Many designers have said to me, truth is, I struggle. And I had to make up a whole story. I had to make up a whole client and everything that they wanted.
- [24:14]
B
Yeah, I mean, we did kind of make up a story for that Kipps Bay room. We imagined there was an eccentric, a really eccentric aunt, like an Auntie Mame who lived in the attic and was an artist and did kooky, weird things.
- [24:29]
A
And hand painted lampshades all over the place.
- [24:31]
B
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think for some people that works. And you know, you hear this a lot. A lot of decorators say doing their own home is the hardest because they can't choose. And I think I understand it's because you love so many things. There's so many things that we love and so many different ideas and you have to pick one. So for me, that's always been freeing rather than scary because, you know, it's not forever. Your home doesn't always have to be a certain way. You can change it. And a show house is expressing, you know, a moment in time, something that you're really feeling at that moment.
- [25:18]
A
You just referenced not being an overnight sensation and toiling away as you did for years. And, and earlier when you were talking about the overwhelming aspects of getting started, thank goodness the husband consigliere got the LLC in place and protected you from all of the potential liabilities. But even the process of just thinking about how you're going to charge for your time and how you're going to structure how the firm works, where did you eventually land on how you charge and what you do? You have a design fees, all of that.
- [26:00]
B
Yeah. So I basically the way I landed on all of that was from I started using studio designer from day one. And there was a person who sort of managed my studio designer and he basically gave me the template for how to charge. You know, at that time it was a design fee per room and then commission. And I have to be frank, I was never great at the business part. And you know, my husband was like, honey, if you don't care about the money, this is A hobby. And I was like, I just don't know how to do that. And he was like, you know, someone who's a real businesswoman is counting the pennies. And I was like, I just don't have time to do that. I really don't. So when I met Brett Williams who started running the business, you know, that's, that's really when I think we really changed. They always say hire the things you can't do. So if you're not great at social media, hire someone to do that. If you're not great at pr, hire someone to do that. You know, and of course, all of that takes funding too, so. And a lot of financial planning.
- [27:38]
A
We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Immerse your clients in elevated design with Ernesta's curated collection of custom sized rugs. Explore a vast variety of options that work for your creative vision through complementary unlimited samples. Gain access to exclusive trade discounts and receive personalized project support through Ernesta's dedicated team of consultants. To apply for membership to Ernesta's trade program or to learn more, visit ernesta.com Ernesto Boh and now back to the show. Well, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned about social media because one of the issues that is coming up a lot in conversation is the demands of social media, the expectations of social media today, and that you, in addition to being a world class designer and creative person, has to also be this celebrity personality and share a great deal behind the scenes or of what's going on with you. And I wonder how you think about that and how you manage it for yourself.
- [29:02]
B
Yeah, I think it's really hard because it's a job. It's hard not to get bored with it. It's hard to think about doing social media when there are other really pressing important things. So we actually had hired a social media consultant, Christie Tonneson. She sort of managed our social media account for a while. And Christy said something to me once that really resonated and that was like, you are not an influencer, you're a designer, so you don't need to worry about the performative aspects like don't do that. And you know, that that really, I think is true for me. I don't enjoy that and that's not what I do. So I think there are design influencers and they're great at it and they bring joy to the world and they should continue doing that. And there are some of us who are just designers who want to get the word out of what they're doing and share with colleagues what they're doing. It's also the reality is social media is a big marketing tool to get clients and to get the eyes of possible collaborators and business partners that. So you do have to do some of it, but I think do it in a way that's really true to you.
- [30:44]
A
And has it been helpful to you in that regard? Has it brought you clients and. Or business partners and collaborations?
- [30:51]
B
Yes, absolutely. I'm someone who always forgets to check the DMs. I get really overwhelmed. But every now and then, if I check there's someone I actually want to work with or do something or, you know, possibly do a product line with. You know, we're so lucky to work with Elizabeth Blitzer. She really sort of our PR guru. She really sort of thinks through some of these partnerships and for us. But some partnerships are just. They're just created organically because we're friends with these brands or they DM me.
- [31:35]
A
On Instagram and eventually young will read the DMs and. And partnerships are born. So that is great. And has that been because you've done some various partners acto and fromental sort of come to mind. But has that been helpful to you in terms of growing awareness of the business or been rewarding for you creatively as well?
- [32:00]
B
Yeah, I think what's really amazing about doing a product line is seeing these things used by other designers in really unique ways. I think that's just so gratifying, like, to see. Wow. I never thought of using that tile this way. I think, like, Joanna Gaines took my Ecto line and used it as a fireplace hearth in her castle project. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. I never would have thought of that. You know, those are really, like, just fun, wonderful things. And another way to express design creativity.
- [32:44]
A
And for designers who are wondering if it's worth doing partnerships or if it's financially rewarding or does it become a whole other business for you, what have you found? Has it been meaningful for you in that way?
- [32:59]
B
I think it's really meaningful just in and of itself, itself to become a creator. You know, royalties are nice. I don't get enough royalties that I can stop my day job.
- [33:17]
A
It hasn't altered Young's lifestyle yet.
- [33:23]
B
But I do hear that some people make really amazing royalties.
- [33:29]
A
I hear that as well.
- [33:30]
B
But it's. It's also difficult to manage all these different pockets of what we do. We're about to do. Wow. House, which we're so excited about. So it's a show house in England with the Chelsea Design Center. We're partnering with Benjamin Moore, and we want to be able to bring a lot to that. We want to bring creativity to products, and then, of course, we want to bring the best of design to our clients. So it's a lot of things to manage. So, you know, we're really careful not to spread ourselves too thin and do only what we can manage.
- [34:20]
A
And I wonder, to your point about being selective about what you say yes to and how you think about the size of your firm and how much you want to take on, because that's often another big challenge is how big do you let your firm grow and how much do you want to be spending your time managing and developing people? So where have you landed with that?
- [34:42]
B
That is something that we are continuing to learn and develop. I think in the early days, it was really hard figuring out how to manage people. And I think now we really enjoy having colleagues to work with. They're our collaborators. They bring more creative energy, more just fun to the office. So we love having lots of people in the firm. And it's sad when people move on and explore other avenues. And then, you know, I think the thing that does get hard is constantly looking for new talent and, you know, people, and then people move on, so finding that balance. But, you know, we have a core group of people who have been with me for a very long time, and we also always have to student interns from nisid. And as a board member, I really enjoy that interaction with students, and that's just been super rewarding for us to show them, give them a glimpse of what it's like to actually be in a firm and to hear what they're thinking about. This is how we stay informed about Gen Alpha.
- [36:20]
A
Yes, exactly. Something that you and I need to work on is how we stay informed about Gen Alpha and how wonderful. I mean, yes, as you say that you're on the board of directors at the New York School of Interior Design and how wonderful that you bring interns in every semester. And I know you have some strong thoughts about design education in general, and I think last time you and I were at a dinner party together, we were talking about people having a better understanding of how people really live and sort of an appreciation for all of that. But I wonder what you think about what we see people are learning in design school and what you think can be improved or worked on as you've seen so many students come through your office.
- [37:11]
B
I think students are really learning these core technical skills, which are incredibly important. Now, interior design has become highly technical. When we first started, everything was done by hand, and now everything is computer. So these design skills are really important to be able to present things digitally and quickly and accurately and beautifully. You sort of have to have, like, a graphic design touch to do design these days. The thing that I think people forget in their pursuit of technical knowledge is that we're creating environments for people. And in order to create environments for people, you have to understand culture, the culture of different places, the culture of your clients, the culture of what you're trying to create. And, you know, I think that can be informed by art history education. I'm really surprised by how little art history is being taught. It seems so. You know, at the very least, I think it's really helpful to read magazines which every single magazine has at least a little primer on some aspect of art history. I mean, you need to know this. You need to know all the different eras and styles in order to understand when mixing antiques is thoughtful and when it's, like, really bad. And you can't understand how things work and break the rules and be avant garde if you don't have a solid understanding of what. What is traditional, what's historic, and what's historic to different regions and places. So I think I would love to see more of that sort of education, because then you really become armed with knowledge. And, you know, something that I think about a lot is being a person of color, being someone who is born outside of the class of people who form the pinnacle of culture. You have to learn all of this. You have to learn it from education or experience. If you're sort of not learning this from your wealthy family, you need to learn it through school or through internships.
- [40:10]
A
Yeah, well, speaking of you being a person of color and you've talked throughout the conversation of always feeling a little bit of an outsider because of your heritage. I know that you were one of the founding members of the aapi, this Asian American Pacific Islander Design Alliance. And I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about that organization and how it came together and what it's all about.
- [40:40]
B
Yeah, so it really started with COVID when there was so much Asian hate and violence happening to Asians in that time. I still cannot figure out why and how all of that was happening. So my friend Jess Lee, who's based in Atlanta, reached out and said, you know, do something positive for our community. What can we do? And I said, well, we're designers. I Can't opine on the larger politics, but I can at least say that it would be great to create a support network for Asian designers. Our hope with APITA is to really give young designers some mentorship and talk about how you can promote yourself. How do you grow a business? How do you have access to clients who can help you grow business? How do you manage all of that? How do we get together and support each other and become a voice for the industry? We have our first gala in LA May 6th, and we started out with, like, you know, five of us just talking, and then we had, like, a New York group. And then, you know, people said, hey, we heard you're doing this. We're in la, we want to do this, we're in Seattle, we want to do this. We're in Philly, Texas, et cetera, et cetera. So we went national so fast, and we have about 2,000 members who are signed up. We have far more people than that that attend events. And, you know, we're still. We grew faster than we've created, necessarily the structure. So we're still working on all of that. And Jess is our president and working so hard to give structure and order to the organization while publicizing it. And, yeah, we are growing very strong.
- [42:57]
A
Yeah, no, it sounds that way. I didn't realize you had that many members already. So that's very exciting. And it sounds like it's gonna be a big party in May out in la, so look forward to that. Something else we're looking forward to. Young. That's about a month away. Yes. Is the book finally arriving, your first book? A mood, a thought, a feeling?
- [43:24]
B
Yes. I'm so excited. The actual Release date is March 24th. I put so much love thought everything into this book. It took me four years. Thankfully. Kathleen Jays, my editor, is extremely patient and kind.
- [43:47]
A
She's very lovely and very patient.
- [43:49]
B
Yeah.
- [43:50]
A
What was the genesis of it? How did it first come about that you were going to work on this? And what the heck is taking you so darn long?
- [43:58]
B
Well, Kathleen actually reached out and said, hey, do you want a book? And I said, I would love to do a book. I was an English major and at one point thought that I would love to be an English professor, and I enjoy writing. I think what I. What took so long is figuring out what I wanted to say and clarifying that. And, you know, I think what I. My idea was you really have to approach design through emotion. It's emotion and then it's intellect. And how do you parse that out how do you put that together? Together? And I wanted to kind of dive into that so that any homeowner could pick this up and okay, I'm going to go on my own design journey. Something that I think about is one of my early clients said, I learned so much about myself through this design journey. And I thought that was just so profound. And I want people to really delve deep and see what they're about and bring that to their homes. Also, how to not feel stifled by rules and being proper and all the things that people get hung up by.
- [45:32]
A
Do you find that people get hung up by a lot of rules or notions of being proper?
- [45:38]
B
I think Americans especially love, you know, they're very concerned about being period proper, about what is the formula for proper living room, what's the proper table setting. I think Americans are very concerned about this maybe because we have a relatively short history and we compare ourselves to the English who make this all very effortless. And I just feel like, be an American, we have created so many cool things. Why are you going backwards?
- [46:20]
A
The forward to your book was actually written by Zooey Deschanel and Jonathan Scott. Right. Who were clients of yours. And a project that so many people were thrilled to get to see in 2025. And. And they sort of suggest that they might not have been the easiest clients in the world because they had a lot of ideas, I'm sure, and notions of what they wanted. And plus, they're busy celebrities and all, so tell me a little bit about that.
- [46:50]
B
They were the easiest because they had so much personality and so much taste. You know, I think a lot of people assume that Jonathan, cause he does Property Brothers and does hgtv, cannot, you know, that he would do something sort of very rh. And the first words he said to me was, we want nothing new in this home. We want nothing modern. Everything should feel older and unique. I want everything to be special in this home. And Zoe has such a incredible taste and she's fearless. It was really everything that I would want to put in a really colorful home. So it was really fun. And it also shows the power of digital media and what's foremost on digital. Right?
- [47:56]
A
Yeah. And it's interesting in thinking about how the design industry has evolved and what is driving the industry today. So many people are talking about artificial intelligence and what impact that looks like it may have on our industry. And how do we see it, friend or foe? And is it a tool? Is it a help? Is it a way to grow our business? Or is it something to be feared. I wonder how you think about that and also how you perceive young people coming up through Nicet and elsewhere are thinking about it and using it.
- [48:35]
B
I feel that we should not be afraid of technology. I think we should be afraid of how humans use it. For instance, social media is a great tool, an amazing connector, but what we've learned is that the way people use it and the way algorithms work, we become siloed. Your algorithm serves up only what you were looking at, so you become extremely siloed in your worldview. And I think for AI, it's the same thing. You know, if you use it to determine all your creativity, then I think it becomes very dangerous. I think it's very helpful as a thought starter, and I think it could have incredible applications for democratizing design. That's something I think about because I feel really beautiful design is not always accessible to everyone. And isn't there a way to be able to see what good design would look for you? So I think there's a way that this could be extremely helpful and useful for everyone. It helped our team the other day. They were trying to do a rendering with a bed, and they were trying to put bedding on the bed, and they couldn't get it to lie flat. So they used an AI tool, which a nice student knew how to use.
- [50:08]
A
There you go.
- [50:11]
B
Tatiana, who's our intern, she said, oh, we can put it through AI and boom. Flatbedding.
- [50:18]
A
I wonder, young as you think about your career and the many wonderful things that have happened for you already, and just wait till March when that book comes out. But I wonder, in thinking about advice that you would give to not only the young nisid students, but so often I get notes from designers who have left a great big firm and have decided to go out on their own, and they're wondering how you've come to think about what is important in running a firm like yours.
- [50:54]
B
You know, the thing that I think about most is, you know, I think there are a lot of people who give really clever advice, but the word I come to most is patience. It took a really long time to learn. Interior design is a trade. It's like learning how to be a master craftsman. You don't start out as an intern, and then you suddenly make this gorgeous chair. You have to feel what it's like to carve wood and what species of wood and what species are better for certain chairs. And, you know, but you understand the complexity as you delve into it, and I think you have to be curious about your craft. And be willing to practice it patiently. It just takes a really long time. None of us have. You know, maybe some people are born with perfect scale vision, but everyone learns from making scale mistakes, from making color mistakes. And, you know, sometimes I. I joke. I joke in the office that I've learned every single way to get my ass kicked. And so I'm gonna, you know, teach you what not to do. Don't do that, because I did that and. And everything failed. So, you know, and that's actually really important that experiences is what gives you the confidence for how to do something as complex as interior design. And interior design, there's a million parties involved, a million hands, a million ways. You know, things can go wrong. As my husband says, you have a million points of failure, and that's why you need an llc. That's exactly right. And so I think you have to be patient. And, you know, people think you'll get an accolade, and then it's done. Now it's like, these are building. As you mentioned, the first Kips Bay. It wasn't even just the first. Like, in 2010, I won the IDA Award for Interior design. And literally, I was so naive, I took the next day off because I thought my phone would be ringing off the hood. I sat by the phone all day waiting for people to call me, and no one called me. So, you know, these things take time, and they, you know, your reputation builds and it's. You know, maybe some people are overnight successes, but for me, it was really about patience and building and improving my craft in every single way.
- [53:51]
A
Yeah, well, and you mentioned the great Elizabeth Blitzer earlier in the conversation. And so often there's this debate about, oh, just is it worth it to have the PR person? Do I need the PR person? At what stage in my career do I need the PR person? I know that you've worked with PR for some time. Tell me how you think about it.
- [54:09]
B
I think it's so essential, especially for where we are now. There's absolutely no way we could function without Elizabeth and Nicole who manages us. They will think through and. And bring opportunities to us that we just wouldn't get on our own. You know, we wouldn't think to do a party with Fromental or this or, you know, there's just so many ways in which a PR person can be helpful, and the time to do it is as soon as you can afford it, you know, because it's another salary. But. But it's incredibly helpful for growing your business and staying in the public eye.
- [55:02]
A
And in terms of staying in the public eye and all of this PR support and what it can lead to. What do you want it to lead to for you? What are you longing for, dreaming of wanting to have happen next?
- [55:20]
B
Well, it's funny because when we started work in the new year, we just got this gorgeous book on Burley House that was gifted to us by Ferguson Shamamian and it's on my desk and I am manifesting a giant castle right now. I would love to do, you know, a thousand room castle. I think that would be amazing. That's sort of the next dream.
- [55:53]
A
So a giant castle is hopefully in your future. We wish that for you. Thank you and I hope that comes to pass. Young I'm such a huge fan of yours, as you know and admirer, and I'm thrilled to get to talk to you and excited for all of the wonderful things that are happening for you.
- [56:15]
B
Thank you. You're too kind.
- [56:19]
A
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have another for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.