← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: A New York trade show shakeup. Plus: The return of the sleeper sofa
00:58:51
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Julia Haley Montanez joins the show to talk about ICFF, Wanted, and New York's design week.
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Julia Haney Montanez about New York's design week. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including big news from icff, a surprise foam shortage, and why sleeper sofas are making a comeback. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nickelhaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:33]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great.
- [00:35]
A
How you doing?
- [00:36]
B
Doing good. It was good to see you last
- [00:38]
A
week to see each other in person. Yes.
- [00:41]
B
We met up in the clouds as well. This really great event thrown by the dln, the Design Leadership Network. They do it at this restaurant, or it's more than just a restaurant. It's at the very top of a downtown skyscraper, a place called Manhatta. I love going there. You really see, see the whole city. You hear from real estate guru Leonard Steinberg, you get a New Yorker writer weighing in on AI Slop. It was a great event all around.
- [01:08]
A
It was a great event. It was thoroughly enjoyable, a very productive day. You got to hear from some substackers as well. And then at the end of the day, some giants in the industry came together and told us about their early childhood.
- [01:24]
B
It was good. Yeah. I feel like we're wading into inside base ball here. But Peter Salak, the. The CEO of Waterworks talked about his teenage years and that was really, really fun. Really fun to hear about. We'll get into Dennis Gully's teenage years in a. In a future episode.
- [01:40]
A
Can't wait.
- [01:41]
B
But in the meanwhile, kudos to everyone at the deal. And it was, it was great fun and very informative. Let's look back on Monday's episode, a conversation with designer Leiden Lewis. Great designer. Always love chatting with him. And I loved hearing you chat with him as well. What was your take on the convo?
- [01:55]
A
A fun conversation. I'm so grateful to him for his candor. And he was just very real about so many issues, including. Listen, just because you see me on the AD100 doesn't mean that I'm rich. Okay.
- [02:10]
B
I just want to make clear every project is a million dollars or whatever it is.
- [02:14]
A
Yeah, I mean, I thought that that was. I thought that was very. As I say, I thought it was real and great clarity. And just because you see someone's posts on social doesn't necessarily mean that every job they're doing is huge or has some NDA attached to it. What did you think?
- [02:30]
B
Yeah, I thought it was a really thoughtful take on that issue because I do think some designers say like, I don't get out of bed for less than a million dollars and like, if that is you, like, kudos. But I do think there's a reality that most designers are doing those really big projects and also kind of building their network. Like you have to take the smaller job with the young person who's kind of up and coming in their career to then cash in on the other side when they get that big raise. So I think it's you. You have to do all different kinds of jobs for all different kinds of reasons. And I think Layden really got that across really clearly. I also just loved how nonchalant he was about AI. He's like, oh yeah, I don't worry about it at all. It's going to help me do my job and it can't do the most important part of my job, so why worry? I thought it was just a very self assured take on the whole AI thing, and given that I wake up every other day freaked out about my own job, I was relieved to hear someone else isn't worried. Let me do the worrying. Leyden, that's right.
- [03:24]
A
No, I think he made it clear why designers perhaps have less to worry about than they often do. But you're right that anxiety levels are high and it's clearly an issue that has people worked up for good reason. But I also think he was just very philosophical about a lot of issues, so it's an enjoyable conversation. I really appreciate, as I say again, his directness and candor and I hope people enjoy the conversation. We're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first we'll take a quick break. This podcast is sponsored by Resource Furniture. This May during NYC by Design. Visit Resource Furniture at Afternoon Light Design Fair, New York's premier home and design show in Lower Manhattan. Resource is partnering with Human Scale Living to showcase how transformable wall beds and ergonomic home office solutions work together to create spaces designed for living well and beautifully. Experience firsthand how thoughtful multifunctional design allows your home to shift seamlessly between work, rest and everything in between. Visit Resource Furniture's booth at afternoon light May 16th through the 19th at 161 Water Street. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, a family run company known for thoughtfully designed rugs, pillows and wall art, and for building lasting partnerships across the trade. For anyone sourcing product right now, laloy just came out of High Point Market with a wide range of new collections, including the Highly anticipated and honestly stunning rain collection plus the latest from Rifle Paper company by Laloy collaboration with along with new pillows and wall art. The idea is to give customers more to work with on the design side while keeping everything else from ordering to support. As straightforward as possible with dedicated sales reps, showrooms nationwide and an easy to use website. To learn more or to connect with a Sales rep, visit laloyloyrugs.com that's Loloi rugs.com. And we're back. First up, Fred, some big news coming out of ICFF.
- [05:53]
B
Indeed. This week the news broke that in 2027, that's next year, the annual trade show will move from its longtime May slot to November. It'll be held alongside Boutique Design New York, better known as bdny. This actually is pretty big news in sort of the landscape of New York's Design Week and its trade show world. You know, it's been in the since 1989. So this is a big shift.
- [06:16]
A
It's a big announcement. It sounds like it's a conversation that has been going on for years and I think we should get more into some of the details. But perhaps people need a reminder about what the International Contemporary Furniture Fair is and what it's all about.
- [06:32]
B
Yes, it's been a while since anyone broke out that acronym. But yes, icff, the International Contemporary Furniture Fair is like New York's annual design trade show, sort of more focused on the residential market. BDNY is focused more on the hospitality and contract market. And it's always been in the spring since it first started. And it's a show that we have at our big conference center here in New York, the Javits center. And it's got a very long and storied history. I feel like there have been so many people on this podcast who launched their business at ICFF. It's like a common thing. I go, I bought one booth at ICFF in 2007 and my business was never the same. So it really has been the launch pad for a lot of the smaller, mid size, kind of cooler, hipper design brands that we talk to all the time. That's kind of what it historically was. It's changed a lot over the years. What's your own history with icff?
- [07:20]
A
Dennis well, I mean, I've been going to icff. I don't want to date myself, Fred, but I've been going for quite a while. I feel like I practically grew up at icff. It was a place where you would just come every year and it was a Very global show. So you'd see brands from Scandinavia, you'd see brands from Europe, and a lot of student participation over the years as well. It was, at its peak, a really quite enormous show. And I know it's one of those shows that everybody loves to say, oh, it was so great, you know, 10 years ago, or, oh, it was back in the day. This was the show. And I think that was part of the challenge that they were facing in all of this.
- [08:01]
B
Right, yeah. Just like New York itself, it's like, oh, you know, it's not like the city used to be when I was 21, but. But I do think there's a reality to it. Like, it's certainly especially Covid. Like, Covid has decimated the trade show world, and it definitely had a big impact on icff. Like, the numbers, while they've, you know, stay steady and even grown a little bit since COVID are not what they used to be back in 2017. And so I think there's a desire to shake things up from that perspective. There's a desire to shake things up from the perspective of people's nostalgic memories of ICFF are sort of maybe poisoning their appreciation of what the show actually is. But even bigger than that is the kind of calendar reality of ICFF has always been a little inconvenient because it comes sort of at the end of this big marathon run where people go to High Point Market, they go to Salone or Milan. And then increasingly now, a lot of people are going to Copenhagen's Three Days of Design, which is held in June. And so it's like right in the middle of a lot of international events that people feel like they have to go to. And the organizers, at least a big driver of this is the sense that it was just one more thing. And a lot of the international brands who show in those shows kind of felt like, oh, okay, just one more thing. We can't make it this year. So they felt like, let's bite the bullet and move it to a less crowded time in the design calendar.
- [09:20]
A
Yeah, I agree with all of that. And interestingly, this notion of holding it at the same time as bdny, BDNY has grown into such a big show over the years, and this last bdny, I mean, the line was going around the block to get into it. And it seems, in terms of attendance, it's overtaken ICFF over the years. And so I love the thought of putting these two together. There seems to be very little overlap in terms of who's going to each show. And this might be an opportunity for a lot of cross pollinization that might be really constructive and I think helpful for the hospitality industry to have this other interesting furniture show going on at the same time. I think this could be a win win for everyone.
- [10:08]
B
Well, you say win win, Dennis, but there is one other player in all of this, which of course is New York's sort of Design Week that happens in the spring around icff. You know, it's organized by this nonprofit called NYC by Design, NYC X Design. And they put on their own panels and of course, showrooms and independent galleries put up their own events around the week that ICFF has traditionally been the big tentpole event. Now it's its own entity, it has its own things, it draws a lot of people just on its own. But there's always been sort of an understanding that ICFF is this big official trade show and that people come around that. And when ICFF moves to the fall, that presents a very different landscape for New York's Design Week. And the organizers aren't going to move it officially. So in 2027, NYC by design will still be in the SP. And there's a lot of questions from people sort of all around New York's design ecosystem of, you know, will losing ICFF be like a death blow for NYC By Design? Will it lead to a new reality that's even better for Spring Design Week? I don't know. It's really uncertain. I'm very curious to see what happens.
- [11:08]
A
I'm curious to see what's gonna happen as well. Are they really not going to move New York Design Week? Hard for me to imagine. I wanna look on polymarket. I wanna see what the betting market is saying about this. But I think to your point, listen, it's entirely possible that maybe New York Design Week becomes even better when it's freed from this show at the Javits center, to the extent that it ever felt like it was somehow held back by that. But on the other hand, ICFF was a reason that a lot of people traveled to New York, and I'm not sure they're traveling to New York. Nothing against New York Design Week, but I'm not sure that they need to make the special trip to see what necessarily happens during that time. But again, much can happen between now and November of 2020. My hunch is they might have said they're not moving or they might have, they're not making big changes because they honestly didn't even have time to get all the principles together and say, what does this mean? How should we think about this? I bet that a lot of conversations have to happen between now and then, and I'm sure some more big announcements are coming.
- [12:15]
B
Yeah, no, you could be right. But, you know, to some degree, it's also like, it's not just under their control. I mean, I think about, like, for example, Afternoon Light, you know, the independent trade show that sprung up last year that was sort of not too far from icff. Like, they're going to stick around in the spring for 2027. They could be kind of like if they grow and expand and, you know, trying to come like. So, you know, it just, it just shuffles the deck a little bit. And it wouldn't be shocking if a lot of events move to the fall to be on icff, but it wouldn't totally shock me if, you know, Design Week just sprung up, new entities and new reasons to come to New York. So this is just an interesting shuffle of the pack and I can't wait to see what it. What it looks like next year. Now we should say this also is happening at the same time as another big piece of news, which is the fact that Emerald, the big trade show organizer that owns ICFF and bdny, was just acquired by Apollo. I struggle to even explain what Apollo is. It's the company that has all the money in the world and they bought Emerald recently and combining with this other company called QuestX. So it's interesting. It's really a bet on, you know, trade shows as an ongoing. As an ongoing thing. What'd you make of that news?
- [13:24]
A
Well, it's fascinating that private equity, and Apollo is this massive private equity company, is interested in being a player in these. In these live event spaces related to our industry and obviously lots of other areas as well. But Blackstone's obviously a big player in High Point and Vegas, and so private equity has. Has looked at this space for a long time. And I think it's interesting thinking about some of the reasons why in person, live events in a time of AI may be very desirable to people. We'll see what it means. But what's your take on all of that?
- [14:00]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's my initial read too, is like, you can't do a trade show with AI. People want to come together. I think if you can put a bunch of them together, you have a pretty defensible business, no matter what happens digitally. I wonder if that even played a little bit of a role in the combining of ICFF and bdny. You know, I know that Emerald sold New York now recently, so maybe they're trying to sort of trim up or they were trying to trim up in advance of the sale. But I think in as much as trade shows are having a weird transitional moment, I think they're like a durable business. Otherwise, Apollo wouldn't put umpteen billion dollars behind, you know, buying these. These companies. So, you know, I think it's a. It's a positive sign for people who like trade shows.
- [14:41]
A
Yeah. I mean, and as you said earlier, I think it could be really interesting to see what happens with New York Design Week and maybe, listen, maybe it becomes much more of a collectible furniture market or maybe it becomes something else. It's possible that it could be a triple win. Not just a win win, but, I
- [14:59]
B
mean, there we go, right? Finally got to the win, win, win.
- [15:02]
A
Everybody could benefit from it. It's definitely a. Stay tuned because lots more is going to come out about all of this, and I, for one, am excited about it. We gotta move on to talk about foam, though, Fred, because this is a more serious issue. Perhaps last week, boh's Aidan Taylor unpacked how a fire at a chemical plant in Texas led to a shortage of polyurethane foam and what it means for the design industry.
- [15:28]
B
I think nothing is more serious than the moving of ICF after the fall. No, but, yeah, this was a great story by Aidan. This is a really good example of the kind of chaos theory effect. The butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil and we get a storm. Manhattan. Here we have this fire in Texas and all of a sudden sofas are more expensive. And Aidan explained this so clearly in the piece, but this one plant in Texas is one of the biggest producers, or if not the biggest producer of this one chemical called propylene oxide, which I had never heard of, but now I know is very important because it's used to make foam. And foam is a really interesting material. Right. Because there's lots of companies that manufacture foam cushions and there's a whole diverse landscape of providers if you want to buy foam in its sort of final form. But the actual chemicals that are used make it, are made by like five people. And so if any one of those five companies has a fire, has a storm, it really sends all these ripple effects down the supply chain. And that's what we're seeing now. You know, you and Caitlin were in a high point the other month, and everyone was talking about this fire at this one chemical plant was making their foam prices go up and you know, I do think we will see at least, you know, moderate prices increases because of it. What's your own personal history with foam, Dennis? Where do you come in?
- [16:42]
A
I have a rich. And there's a lot of, a lot history with foam. You know, interestingly, why I think it was so top of mind for the people in High Point is I am certain that for many of them, they are only just now recovering from the post traumatic stress of the 2021 foam crisis. If you were anywhere near the furniture industry in 2021, you will remember that lead times had had gone out to a year and they were already having all sorts of supply chain issues. And then there was Hurricane Yuri, blew into Texas and froze the facility in Texas this time and foam production had come to a halt. So I think a lot of people were thinking, oh my God, please don't tell me it's going to be anything like this again with this foam crisis. Luckily, I don't think this is nearly as serious as the crisis that we faced in 2021. But that's part of why it was so top of mind, because this material is so vital to the cushion fillers and even everything that gets wrapped around the furniture to get it delivered. So it's an important material.
- [17:54]
B
Yeah. As you pointed out, it seems like the repairs at this factory are going well. And I think that the thing about foam is it doesn't make up an enormous part of the cost of a sofa or a chair. It's like 5 to 8%, as Aidan pointed out in the piece. So it's not like foam going up 20% is going to make a sofa 20 times more expensive or anything like that. But what it does do is it just kind of adds one more wrinkle to the process. And right now, all the manufacturers in High Point, everybody is dealing with well, the price of fuel is going up and down left and right, like gas prices are high. Inflation is up. We just got an inflation print this morning that was 3.8, the highest in a long time. And so I think everybody's looking at their price list and going like, okay, all my numbers are going up. I should probably raise my numbers up too. So I think even though this foam crisis is going to be resolved, I think you will see the effects of it in upholstery pricing for sure.
- [18:46]
A
Yeah. Again, going Back to the 2021 situation, part of what was so unbelievable about that time was you couldn't believe there was a foam shortage in the midst of all of the other craziness Covid supply chain. And that's very much how this foam issue feels. Now to your point, suddenly we're dealing with the diesel costs are through the roof and all the and jet fuel prices are through the roof. And so that's impacting things. And everybody is just feeling it's that 1970s misery index feeling that's come back to a lot of people back when they used to combine sort of consumer sentiment and inflation. And as you know, consumer and sentiment is extremely low right now. And so that index, which few are still tracking, but I sort of glance at it every now and again and guess what, the misery index is pretty high these days for people because they're just not feeling great about it and companies don't want to have to raise prices. That's a conversation they are tired of having. But it's definitely something that has come up yet again.
- [19:49]
B
You've got your misery index, I've got my Ivory boucle index. It's just one more thing, you know what I mean? I think is how people are seeing it. So don't expect prices to double next month because of this foam shortage. But it's just another, another little drip drop of ho hum news and I think that's going to play into how furniture suppliers are thinking about their own prices. So watch this space.
- [20:12]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And inflation news flash, not under control yet, sadly. Moving on, we're going to talk about our house, Fred.
- [20:19]
B
Indeed. It's earnings season. Our house's numbers are out. What'd you make of them, Dennis?
- [20:23]
A
Well, our house, they are trying hard, that is for sure. I mean, the numbers came in lower because of so many conditions. They blame the weather, among other things,
- [20:36]
B
but the weather, honestly, the weather is, it's a common thing. Even Wayfair was talking about how like yes, weather does affect an E commerce retailer because people are stuck at home and they don't, you know, they're dealing with.
- [20:49]
A
It's hard to get to that computer keyboard in bad weather.
- [20:52]
B
Yes, exactly. But I mean, in all fairness, the weather, especially in the Northeast, well, was truly difficult. So I don't think it's just an excuse. Their numbers actually would say were okay. I mean their revenue, they hit their targets, their net revenue went up a little bit. Their margin decreased, I think partially because of fuel costs. That's affecting everybody. But even though I would say they had kind of a fine quarter by all reasonable standards, the stock is dropping. It fell almost 10% after the report came out and it's near its year low or if not at its Year low. So why do you think Wall street is reacting so negatively to our house's numbers? What's going on here, Dennis?
- [21:29]
A
Yeah, I mean, to your point, a new 52 week low market just closed as we come on air. Fred. Stocks below $6 a share. The market, I think, is wishing that our house was communicating whatever problems they're having, whatever shortfalls they're anticipating, they wish they had told us about it. And by us, I just mean the analytical and trading community. They wish that those numbers had been shared a quarter or two ago. And that's unfortunately still a problem that our house is facing. The stock topped out in August of last year, let's call it, and then they proceeded to come out with some disappointing numbers and some shortfalls and some things that just could have been communicated more effectively. And I think Wall street is wishing that our house would simply kitchen sink it. In other words, throw all of the bad news out, whatever. The increased costs are gonna be around, tariffs and freight costs and everything else, and just say, here's what we're seeing, here's what we're imagining, and even if the number needs to be worse than anybody wants to hear, just get it out of the way. Instead, what you're getting is just the trickle out of these numbers. And that's why the stock is trading as low as it is.
- [22:38]
B
I also think an important thing to think about here is just the overall sector is doing so poorly. It's like last week we talked about Easton Allen, which is a totally different kind of company than our house. Its stock is very low. Our house is stock is very low. Rh, which is the exact opposite company in terms of strategy. Also, its stock is low. It's just not a great time on Wall street to be a furniture retailer. And I think we should, whatever we say about these companies at the moment, we should bake in the understanding that just right now traders are not dying to buy these shares for a whole host of reasons.
- [23:10]
A
Well, and that is such an important point. And Ethan Allen also hitting a 52 week low today. So I mean, yes, point taken. Everyone is buying AI and selling furniture and home stock. So that that is clearly the message of the market. And unfortunately, when there are so few buyers to your point in the sector, you see, in order to have those shares trade, because there has to be a buyer and a seller to match up those orders, you see how low the price has to go before someone is willing to step in and buy.
- [23:40]
B
Let's talk about a few points from the call. One thing that was interesting was that they said that they're seeing a big shift in their own data away from neutrals, towards color, towards pattern, towards more interesting shapes, towards more traditional design. I feel like I sort of see that anecdotally. And, you know, when I. When I look at retail brands, when I talk to designers as well, I do really feel like, you know, all joking aside, we are moving out of the ivory boucle era. And, you know, our house is obviously positioned to capitalize on that. A lot of RH's new collections seem to be positioned to capitalize on that as well. Do you think that's actually true? Do you think they're talking their own book? What's your read on that?
- [24:11]
A
Well, I thought it was interesting that the CEO, much like you, Fred, had just returned from Milan and thought that. Thought that his furniture was looking better than anything he saw in Milan, which I thought was an amusing quote from him. So he's feeling pretty good about his designs. And I do think that as the Business of Home podcast predicted, we finally are seeing white boucle buckling, and that people are moving on from that. And what's so poignant, Fred, is that I think our house, particularly in upholstery, has such a huge opportunity in the marketplace, which is why, I'm sorry, that their stock is struggling the way it is, and I'm sorry that they're not getting their story out as effectively. Because another conversation that was even bigger than the foam conversation in High Point was how many CEOs said to me, oh, I'm buying our house stock. Oh, absolutely. Oh, this stock is priced to move. And so a lot of the high point CEOs think that our house is going to, at minimum, double in production and volume from where they are now in the coming years. And so they're big believers in this Our House story. And so it's unfortunate to see Wall Street's reaction to all of this, but if anything, it makes me think that a lot of High Point CEOs are probably buying more on the dip, because, I mean, and these are people that are very close to the market and think that our house is positioned very well. And again, in the upholstery category, it's almost all coming out of North Carolina. But we have to move on and talk about. Wait for it, Fred. Sleeper sofas. That's right. Another story from boh's Aidan Taylor revealed a new wave of sofa beds with sleek designs and more comfortable materials. They're back, Fred. Sleeper sofas.
- [26:01]
B
But are they sleeper sofas See, this is an interesting debate we were having before we started the podcast.
- [26:06]
A
It's a hot one.
- [26:07]
B
Dennis, you say sleep sofa. That's what you say, right?
- [26:11]
A
Well, you know, I used to sell many a sleep sofa, Fred. Back in the day I worked for Avery Boardman and Carlisle and, you know, that's what we called them, sleep sofas. And, you know, we were in the business. That's all I'm saying.
- [26:25]
B
Well, exactly. Yeah, maybe that was sort of like industry lingo. And it's funny, our producer Caroline Burke calls them sofa beds. I call them sleepers. I don't know if that's a California thing.
- [26:34]
A
Sleepers. Creepy to me. That's all I'm saying. Sleepers a little. Makes me a little nervous.
- [26:38]
B
Sleeper creeper. But yeah, I mean, this was another great story by Aidan sort of talking about the, you know, I don't know if they truly ever went away, but certainly there is like a resurgence of, of new, better options when it comes to sleepers. Sleeps, sofa beds, whatever we want to call them. It's interesting. It's another category, kind of like recliners, where there's almost like a stigma around it. There's this sense both that, okay, the product itself is kind of chintzy and cheap because you used to have these sleeper sofas that were really creaky and were heavy and the mattress was horribly thin. I think a lot of people have been sort of burned by that experience. And so that's the, the association around it. But I also think there's kind of a latent snootiness around the idea that it's like, what do you mean? You don't have three guest rooms. You need a sleeper sofa. Why? And I think that kind of has dogged the category a little bit. But there is, I think there are really high end good sleeper sofas. So Aidan wrote a good piece sort of exploring it. What do you make of the thesis? Do you think they ever really went away or. Where are we on the sleeper investor, the sleeper debate?
- [27:43]
A
I do think that just justifiably many models got a bad rap because there was that long metal support bar that was quite uncomfortable, that was underneath the mattress. And a lot of people just didn't get a good night's sleep. Also, many of them were just difficult to operate and many of them weren't attractive. Interestingly, some of the fabric companies have been working overtime on the furniture side of their, of their business. Kim Skodrow, friend of the show and designer out of Chicago, actually was just talking about she just installed one from Kravit for a client and it has a pump to fill it so that the mattress kind of blows up, kind of like an air bed. And I think a lot of people had their nose in the air about sleep sofas, but I was delighted as my DMs filled up with, oh, yes, using them all the time. And why have that wasted space? A lot of people, that home office, why shouldn't that have a sleep sofa in it? And so it can be a guest room as well. There you go.
- [28:47]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think as Aidan pointed out in his piece, like, there is like a real driver for the demand, which is, I think part of it is just Covid, you know, everybody, and it's the answer to everything. But I think it's true here and that people kind of were looking for new ways to utilize their space, you know, in different ways. I also think that, you know, the rise of like Airbnbs and rentals created this sense of everybody's, you know, tricking out their home or rental property with a sofa and why not turn it into a bed? And also just, you know, the contemporary, you know, real estate landscape, it's, you know, people are staying place in their homes longer, you know, they may not be able to move into a bigger house with that extra guest bedroom. So when the in laws come, you need a sleeper sofa. So there's a lot of like, you know, outside factors that are pushing this rise. In addition to some of the stuff you were talking about of, you know, just the technology has gotten, you know, so much better. I mean, I remember I grew up with the clunky thing that kind of felt like a rodent trap when you were getting into it. And now, I mean, the ones from American Leather, incredible. The mechanism is great. The mattress is really incredible. All kinds of high end Italian brands have their own very sleek sleeper sofas. The style has gotten so much better. The technology has gotten better. I shopped for one a couple years ago and I was blown away by the option. So I think it really is a category that. But I don't know if it's totally lost all of its stigma. It needs a better name. It can't be Sleep Sofa. It can't be. So it's gotta be. We need to come up with like a high end name for it. I think once we get that, it's gonna be the hottest. It's gonna be on the COVID of ad.
- [30:12]
A
I agree. And I can't wait for designers to write in and tell us what the great name for sleeper sofas should be, because it can't be sleeper sofas, please. But I do think it's a category that is worth revisiting. I was surprised by the number of designers who said, yeah, I'm looking for one right now, so let me know what you hear. And I do think that it's come a long way and I'm so glad. Thanks, Aidan Taylor, for giving us most of the show today. Shout out to Aidan. That was great. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the best product launches from Milan and a guide to NYC by design. But first, a quick break. If you're in the middle of sourcing. Laloy's latest introductions are now available online. That includes the new Rain collection, many other new collections from the brand, and the newest designs from Rifle Paper company by Laloy. You can explore it all, connect with a sales rep, or find the showroom nearest you@leloyrugs.com as hybrid work redefines how we live, the home office has become essential. This May during NYC by Design Resource Furniture is partnering with Human Scale Living at Afternoon Light Design Fair to demonstrate how intentional functional design improves everyday living. Their shared booth showcases transformable furniture paired with ergonomic solutions, proving that spaces can work as hard as they look. Beautiful. See how these two leaders in sustainable multifunctional design help create homes that adapt to how people actually live and work. Visit afternoon light May 16th through the 19th at 161 Water Street. And we're back. I'm joined now by Julia Haney Montanez, the co founder of the design release. Julia, thank you so much for joining me.
- [32:22]
C
It's an honor and a privilege. Dennis, I'm so happy to be here.
- [32:26]
A
Well, delighted to have you and at such a busy time as we're just about to kick off New York Design Week and ICFF and oh, wait, icff. So much to talk about there, which I want to get into, but really quickly. Big reactions to the news coming out about the move.
- [32:45]
C
Honestly, when I got the news, I thought immediately, this is a fantastic idea.
- [32:50]
A
Okay.
- [32:51]
C
I think everyone felt a little bit like it was a little too squished between Milan and Copenhagen, and Copenhagen getting so much attention these days. Obviously, Milan is growing enormously. So I think that we deserve a little break in May.
- [33:07]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. So it sounds like a great idea and I want to discuss it further. But before we get into all of that, let's tell people about you and the design release and even a little bit of your background, because you and I were having a fun conversation before we got started about your time at the Ad Home show when you used to run the maid section there. Take us back, Julia.
- [33:30]
C
Oh, my gosh. Well, I suppose I could say my design career started when I lost my finance job right after graduating in 2008 and took my severance package, went to Paris, discovered the decorative arts museum there, and it changed my life. So I moved to Los Angeles, rebranded, told people I was an interior designer. They believed me. It all worked out in that way. Went back to New York, long story short. And I saw, actually it was an interior designer that I was assisting. Kishani Perera. She sent me a listing.
- [34:06]
A
Gosh.
- [34:07]
C
Could it have been on business of home? I'm not sure, but it could have been. And it was a job listing for the Architectural Digest Design Fair. I clearly did not read it. I just said, oh, Architectural Digest ad.
- [34:22]
A
That's great. I'd love to work at that magazine.
- [34:24]
C
Yes, exactly. I show up to the interview. Jeff Peterson was interviewing me. He was the director of the fair. I sat down with him, he explained the show, and I said, I'll take it. This sounds great. Sounds perfect. And he looked at me. I didn't offer you any job, but okay. So a few months later, or maybe a few weeks later, he offered me the job, and I received my own section of a whole trade show. I was able to take 200 exhibitors, curate this section year after year and really build it up into something beautiful. And I had so much fun. It was such a huge part of my career. And so I did the ad show from. From 2013 to 2020, when unfortunately, sadly, because of issues at Pier 94 and because of financial situations and Covid. It ended. So RIP To Ad Show.
- [35:25]
A
Yeah. No, no, no. I was very sad having been at the AD Home show for many, many years when the lovely Mrs. Scully, of course, was at AD and Jeff Peterson is a longtime friend, and he did such a great job of pulling that all together. So what happens for you you after the sad closing of the AD Holmesh show? What do you do next?
- [35:45]
C
Oh, my gosh. Well, during AD Show, Mr. Peterson, Jeff gave me such a long rope, and I told him, jeff, the show is in March. It's now April, May, June. No one wants to talk to me. No one wants to see my email in their inbox reminding me of their next trauma. Four days of. Of stress. Right? So is it okay if I travel the world and start scouting exhibitors for the fair and just, and, and just look at other trade shows, look at their production value and just check it out. And so I started traveling first to Milan and then to Copenhagen. Toronto does Toronto was huge one for me and I started collecting all the offsite information. I came up with the idea to create a design world calendar and then Covid hit and of course, where are the exhibitions? Nowhere. And then I decided I wanted to move to London and it really reactivated my first love, which was always writing. And I started our design release, Substack, and it took off.
- [36:55]
A
And so the design release lets you know about all of the upcoming shows. What's worth seeing. It seems like you've done a pretty elaborate outline for NYC by design, for example, Right?
- [37:09]
C
Yeah, exactly. So the design release, the website itself is essentially a listing and a guide for design weeks, for fairs, for exhibitions around the world, everywhere. I think Leo, my business partner and I, our biggest value in this whole world of design is that we love the community.
- [37:28]
A
And that's just what I wanted to ask you. So what is this community?
- [37:31]
C
Community?
- [37:31]
A
Who's reading the design release? Besides myself, of course, and people who want to stay informed. Who's coming to this and who's going to all of these shows?
- [37:42]
C
Well, a lot of it is interior designers and a lot of it is designers themselves, furniture designers who want to see what their contemporaries are doing. A lot of galleries read us, a lot of journalists read us. I know that a lot of journalists use us to create their own roundups. So I like to think of us as sort of like almost a press release in certain ways. And then now a lot of fashion people are trickling in and reading it. Some. Some other substacks that write about fashion are starting to, to take note of what's happening in the design world. They find it very interesting. So the world is growing.
- [38:19]
A
And how do you like being on Substack and what's that experience been like for you?
- [38:23]
C
Well, well, I had always been looking for a new platform since we had a mailchimp that we were sending out pretty, you know, once a month, let's say. And I really. It was such an expensive platform and I just wasn't happy with it. And I started noticing David Nishan's substack and I reached out to him, which
- [38:42]
A
we quote often on the show.
- [38:43]
C
Absolutely. And I reached out to him for advice and I said, you know, I'm curious about Substack. Can we have a little chat? What I. What he told me, which I really appreciated Was that you really need a voice. And I, I have a voice. I have opinions. I think, you know, depending if I'm grumpy or happy, you know, my voice can take on different types of personalities. But I, I think I have a voice. And I said, okay, you know, I think I can do this. And I've loved being on Substack because it's seen a lot of growth. I just think it's a really wonderful platform. I think more and more design world people are joining and it's becoming again, a lovely community.
- [39:24]
A
Yeah, well, so let's talk a little bit about your voice. And you said that sometimes you show up a little grumpy. I noticed that in the most recent note. There's a little bit of a rant actually going on. There's a little bit of a rant. And let's talk about it because Milan has become this great big thing. And I know you've got, got, you've got opinions on that, but tell me.
- [39:46]
C
Well, you know, I think my opinions have somewhat changed. I think about a year ago, last Milan, last May of 2025, is when I started noticing these very shallow fashion exhibitions taking place. And it was sort of like, okay, there goes the neighborhood. And at first I thought, okay, this sucks. Like, this is why we can't have anything good in this world. The design world's been, this is why
- [40:13]
A
we can't have nice things.
- [40:14]
C
Exactly. The design world's been co opted. Now it's like the Real Housewives are gonna go in and shoot an episode there and it's just gonna be them at Gucci. And it's definitely enough to make someone a bit grumpy. Right? But then you realize that who is paying the bills of all these, these design publications, right? Who's paying the bills at Conde Nast, who's paying the bills likely at Gallery, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's the fashion brands. So I don't think I see it anymore as a problem, but I see it is that if they want to participate in a design dialogue, authentically do it. It's a little meaningless, it's a little shallow. And I think design world people, we pride ourselves on not being, being very shallow because design itself requires so much research and development and especially the handmade nature of design. It requires craft, it requires skills, it requires love and passion. It's like art. And to see it become a little bit become shallow is not fun to watch.
- [41:26]
A
And the other challenge is that often there is an overlap or a near overlap with the High Point Furniture Fair. Despite the fact that High Point actually puts its dates on its website going all the way out to 2029, the people who seem to plan Salone don't seem to pay much mind to that. And already I see that next year it's actually going to be at the very same time as High Point. So that will be a choice that designers will have to make. But it's interesting coming back to this ICFF conversation. It's interesting that that conversation led to what I gather has been a conversation going on for the past several years about should we really take the bold move and move ICFF to November, which is what's planned for next year, as we've talked about, and have it run concurrently with bdny, which is a show that from the past few years that I've seen going to that show has been building quite dramatically and a lot more people have been coming to that show. What's your take?
- [42:32]
C
Well, BDNY has never really been on my. Well, it's always been on my radar, but it's never really been something that I personally look to as a cultural event.
- [42:47]
A
Hasn't been cool enough for you, Julia? I get it. No, no. All right.
- [42:50]
C
It's not that it's not cool enough. It's just that the design release is not really just for trade. The design release is for lovers of design. And I consider myself, before trade, before anything, a lover of design. And bdny, the last time I went was, you know, a really proper trade show. And it's funny because I think it's actually a really great place for people, for independent studios to show because there's not. Because it's a little bit, dare I say, it's a little generic, the product on view. So I think there's a really great opportunity to showcase your unique designs if you can produce enough for hospitality. So I think it's a great show. I think that it could be cooler, dare I say, but I think that the alignment is very smart.
- [43:48]
A
Well, and perhaps being the next door neighbor to ICFF will help make it cooler.
- [43:54]
C
Hospitality designers more than ever, if they're not, they should be sourcing unique product for hotels. Hotels should not be. I mean, this is a whole other. Com conversation. But hospitality is having a huge moment right now. Wellness, hospitality, everything. These days, if you pay $1,000 a night for a hotel, are you getting a five star experience? You don't know. You just don't know anymore. So I think hotels are really, are really aiming to stand out in Many different ways. And a lot of them are doing that with their designs, of course, having more of beautiful interiors that are more unique and art and working with art consultants, design consultants, that sort of thing. So I think it's in their best interest to check out ICFF and see the emerging or independent design there, and vice versa.
- [44:52]
A
Well, so speaking of icff, you're involved with icff and let's talk about your role and what you're doing there. And let's tell people who might not be overly familiar what ICFF is all about and what it's going to look like this year.
- [45:09]
C
So ICFF has always been a huge trade show that I, let's say in the beginning of my career at Ad Show, I would walk through ICFF and I would say, oh, my God, Wow, this is what I want Ad show to look like. And I think, unfortunately, because of COVID and then again because of tariffs, it just seems like trade shows in general have taken lots of hits. Right? And especially the time of year with Milan getting stronger, Copenhagen getting stronger, I feel like ICFF has become more of a local show, which I think is actually really great as well. New York has so much good design. And icff, Claire and Odile, the brand directors, reached out to me and we started talking around November and they wanted to refresh ICFF to bring in a new section. And we brainstormed, we talked a lot. They also were thinking about collectible design. I didn't think it was the right idea because I think there's too many options for collectible design right now. Meaning shows that present to collectors are their audience versus trade, which is a trade show. Right. So that's a differentiation. And so we started talking more and more. And there are so many incredible independent studios in New York City where they come from. Pratt Parsons, risd. I mean, really, really talented people making. Making beautiful furniture. And it's not necessarily collectible, not because it's not fine, gorgeous furniture, but just because that's not their business model. And I felt like after a few conversations over the years, that some of the designers felt like they didn't have a home, they didn't have a place to show. And so I wanted to create a space for those people within Lookbook, which is a section in icf. So I got to work starting in November and started building out the section and inviting people that I had worked with at Ad show or whose work I really admire. And it was such a pleasure, Dennis, because after Ad Show, I was a bit shell shocked. It's such A hard trade shows are a really hard job. It takes it out of you. It's like four days of abuse, and then you're in the fetal position for a month after. It's really difficult and stressful. And physically, everything and all your exhibitors are stressed out because this is so meaningful to them. So, as a sensitive person, it was kind of a lot for me. And I said, I don't think I'm ever going to do a trade show ever. But when this came along, when I spoke to Claire and Odile, I just sensed that we were so aligned in how important and meaningful it is that these designers get a platform that gets them in front of a lot of people, that has actual great ROI for them. And. Yeah. So I'm very proud to have been. To have been part of the show this year.
- [48:17]
A
Well, and we've had a lot of conversations in the past about. So ICFF is just one component of this whole NYC by Design that goes on with activations throughout the city. And there was always a little bit of sensitivity. Oh, I know we're not Milan. But there's a lot going on, and it seems to have gotten more traction, more momentum. You tell me what your sense of that is, but how do you describe what NYC by Design is and why, what it has become all about?
- [48:54]
C
Well, I don't love to call it NYC by Design. I really think they desperately need a rebrand. I think New York City deserves an amazing New York Design Week. And I think that NYC by Design hasn't been getting the word out as much as I think they should be. And I think that's. That's due to a few different factors. The fact that it went to Sandow and then Sandow gave me, it's now a nonprofit again. So there's a bit of change of hands. So, of course, when there's change of hands, it takes a little bit of time to get things going. And as of now, the Design Week is essentially just people independently doing exhibitions that align with the timeframe. So when there's 30 of those, when there's 50 of those, there's your Design Week. So does Design Week really need a platform that is just for New York Design Week? Yeah, sure. But it happens anyways. It happens. With or without New York by Design. New York Design Week is happening. So I have about 34 events on my radar. There are a lot more. And I'm noticing hotels collaborating with young studios, which I think is fantastic, because again, just like fashion, you got the fashion big bucks, you got the hotel Big bucks. Let's do something cool with the young people or with the emerging people. And so there's a showcase at 11 Howard that looks amazing with design hotels. There's a showcase that's really on the top of my list called One Night Stand. And it's a play on words. Dennis, don't get concerned.
- [50:37]
B
Okay? Okay.
- [50:38]
A
No, no, I'm sure it's appropriate. I'm sure it's.
- [50:43]
C
I saw you over there getting nervous, you know, and that one is taking place at Citizen M. And those are my friends, American Design Club, that partnered with them. And they're doing a showcase of nightstands.
- [50:56]
A
Okay.
- [50:57]
C
Just really fabulous stuff going on and it's not overwhelming. Like Milan.
- [51:02]
A
You mentioned Copenhagen, and it sounds like that show has gotten a lot of momentum as well.
- [51:08]
C
Yes, it's. It's absolute madness in Copenhagen.
- [51:11]
A
Is that right?
- [51:12]
C
It is, because it's teeny, tiny city. And the design week itself is really a giant press tour more than anything. So rather than having a trade show, every single showroom opens up and then of course, pop ups come. People from the usa, people from other countries will get an empty space and activate. And so the three Days of Design event itself is three days where this organization ships in journalists from all four corners. Every magazine is represented, and you are expected to wake up at the crack of dawn and go to every single showroom on your list. It's a very tough tour. You can't work. You. You are just there to take part, to absorb. Exactly. So some journalists don't want to do that anymore. But I went and I had a fabulous time off tour. There is so much going on. And I think that what's going to happen is that it's going to really be known as Copenhagen Design Week, because again, three days, which used to be everything, is now becoming just a part of everything. So it's really expanding a lot.
- [52:33]
A
Okay, well, that's exciting. Before we wrap up, let's talk about Paris really quickly too, because another situation where you've got Deco off and lots of people coming for all of the fabric and fun activations within the city itself. And then you've got this great big show, Maison l'. Objet. And I wonder what your take on how all of that is feeling these days.
- [52:58]
C
Paris is the best place in the world after, you know, Copenhagen in June. Paris. Yeah. Maybe not January. I've actually never been to Deco off, but I go to Paris about three to four times a year for different fairs.
- [53:15]
A
Okay.
- [53:16]
C
Maison Objet. I don't have business there, really. You know, it's such a big trade show and I think, I think Maison Objet is more, is more useful to someone who potentially owns a store, let's say, like more wholesale relationships. So I've, I've sort of lost interest in Maison Objet as a fair itself. But the Design week again used to be very strong.
- [53:43]
A
Yes.
- [53:43]
C
And I, similarly to New York Design Week used to be very strong and then sort of like came down a bit Covid times, maybe less foreigners like bringing work and pop ups and things like that. So it sort of dipped down a bit and like a pendulum, it might come back. We'll see. But I do think the most interesting thing in Paris and the most interesting trade show takes place now in Fashion Week and it's called Matter and Shape. And so I would say that if we have any fancy, fabulous listeners who are just looking for any good excuse to go to Paris, which you don't need one really, I would say that I think it's March.
- [54:22]
A
Okay, so it's warmer. Warmer than in January.
- [54:25]
C
Yeah, it is. But I have to double check on that. It's on the design release. But Matter in Shape in Paris is a fabulous show. It's very unique. Again, it's for the trade, which makes it interesting to me because it's sort of taking this trade show model but making it more elevated and what's being
- [54:42]
A
shown at Matter and Shape. So what are you seeing if you come over there for that?
- [54:45]
C
Independent design and collaborations. So you have Cerax showing collaborations with different brands as someone as like a bigger brand, I would say. And then you have some galleries which I think is very smart to showcase to a trade audience if you're a gallery and everything in a very contemporary way. They even had a section for fragrance, for perfume. It was a really, really fun show. I enjoyed it a lot.
- [55:09]
A
Okay, are you going to try and get to Copenhagen in June?
- [55:12]
C
I am 100% going to Copenhagen in June.
- [55:15]
A
Okay.
- [55:15]
C
And I'll see you in London in September, right?
- [55:17]
A
Well, I wish, I wish that I could be there in September. We'll see if my new overlords feel like sending me there. We'll find out. But we will definitely see each other. Should we not even call it NYC by Design? What do you want? New York Design Week?
- [55:32]
C
Design Week.
- [55:33]
A
Okay, we'll call it New York Design Week. Hopefully you and I will bump into each other at some fun event there. If not, certainly, certainly at icff. And I look forward to seeing you in person then. But in the meantime, thanks so much. For taking the time to talk with us.
- [55:48]
C
Thanks, Dennis. So much fun.
- [55:54]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. What caught your eye?
- [56:03]
B
Michael Anastasiada has caught my eye. He's great. I guess he was originally born in Cyprus, now he lives in London. A great international product designer. One of these guys who works with everybody from B and B Italia to Floss and everything in between. He closed his eponymous lighting brand, his brand with his own name on it, recently, which was interesting. I mean, I wonder if there's sort of an economic reason behind it, but he does a ton of work with these big brands, and I'm guessing that there's probably a factor of It's a lot easier to design the stuff and then hand off all the grunt work of making it and selling it to somebody else than it is to deal with inventory and all that. All that good stuff. So maybe. Maybe some. Some further conversations there. But he's a great designer and he makes great lighting, so it was interesting to hear that. Another thing also caught my eye, which is a social media platform that I actually like, which is this. This one called Rec League, which was recommended to me by Amanda Hesser of Food52, who's got a gangbusters account that she set up on Rec League. It's a really cool network where it's like. It's kind of like Instagram and there's a feed of images and stuff, but instead of images that are just random, it's things that you'd recommend. So some of it is, like, products. Some of it is like a book. Other times it's just drink a glass of water is the recommendation. So you get these kind of like, funny, abstract ideas with really, like, actual interesting product information. So I think it's really fun. I'm curious if it catches on in the design industry. I'd like to. I'd like to maybe work, write something about it someday. So if you check it out, let me know. Rec League is what it's called. Dennis, what caught your eye this week?
- [57:28]
A
Good stuff. This one is a story that was in the Weekend Financial Times in the excellent House and home section that they do at the ft. The headline was, does your home need a doctor? And this is a conversation I think we're gonna be having in the future. But it was a piece about medical specialists being brought in to diagnose some of the health issues in people's homes and weave longevity into its fabric. So I think this whole wellness and longevity conversation that we've been having a lot recently, oh, it's coming for the home. And it turns out that, that the air in your home might be worse than the air outside. So what are we going to do about that? The industry has to really figure that out. And so this article tells you some of the special who are working in the field. And again, I'm sure it's a conversation we're going to be having in the future.
- [58:18]
B
Sleeper sofas. That's the answer.
- [58:20]
A
More of those, definitely. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.