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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Are great rooms always photogenic? Plus: Sarah Harrelson on Cultured's new home publication
01:02:23
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Cultured magazine founder Sarah Harrelson joins the show to talk about her new home publication.
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- [00:07]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on I'll be speaking with Sarah Harrelson of Cultured magazine about her new home design issue. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including Kelly Werstler's new venture, a housing check in and a look at whether great rooms need to be photogenic. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nicolaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:34]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:35]
A
Great. How you doing?
- [00:36]
B
I need to be photogenic.
- [00:39]
A
And you are. You're so photogenic. I'm a little bit envious.
- [00:42]
B
Truth be told, I am not photogenic, but thank you, Dennis. It's going good. It's autumn finally, at long last fall has arrived. I can break out my 600 sweaters I buy in the middle of June and finally wear at least two of them. North Carolina is calling though. High points coming up fast. Dennis, you're headed down. What are your plans?
- [01:04]
A
Headed to High Point. There's going to be so much going on. They're going to be in such a good mood when we get there, right?
- [01:08]
B
I mean, not like anything big is going on that.
- [01:11]
A
Oh, not like they are going to have their minds preoccupied but mercifully they're going to have a bunch of fun business of home panels to distract.
- [01:21]
B
That's what the world needs now. But you do have two pretty big ones. So what Tell the good people if they're making their High Point calendar. Now put these two down.
- [01:29]
A
That's right. If you're making your High point, the first thing you want to write down is Saturday at 4 we're going to be in the Woodbridge showroom at 200 steel. We're having a conversation. Some never before seen Morris & Co. Prints and patterns are coming out from Sanderson & Morrison Co. Which is an exciting new collection that they've got some unfinished work if you will. And. And I'm going to be chatting with none other than Stephanie Sabi and Katie Rosenfeld on a panel talking about three talkers. Well, it's gonna be a lot of energy in that room.
- [02:05]
B
Very high energy room that is looking.
- [02:08]
A
Forward to that one. And then Sunday I've got a panel that I'm doing at Global Views which is in the IHFC building and I'm talking with David McEachin from Workshop APD and Naz Nazawa and Christine Carney from BlackBerry Farm is joining as well. We're gonna be talking branding and all sorts of things. So, again, another very chatty and fun group. So I'm looking forward to that.
- [02:33]
B
And I think you can probably make it through both of those panels without using the T word. So that'll be a welcome break from every other conversation happening in North Carolina next week. Anyway, I, sadly, will not be down there. I'll be holding down the fort here in New York. But I'm excited to hear about how it all goes. Let's quickly look back on Monday's episode of Conversation with Corey. Damon Jenkins, back on the show after a long break. We first talked with Corey when we thought we were headed for a recession. Actually, we returned for the biggest boom the home industry has ever had. So that shows our predictive powers. But Corey is always a great interview, such a great storyteller, lots of good business insight. What were your favorite takeaways from this conversation?
- [03:10]
A
And perhaps having him on Fred will lead to another big boom.
- [03:14]
B
Right?
- [03:15]
A
He can be our new indicator. Things are about to turn. We're having Corey on the show again. And who has faced more setbacks in this industry than Corey Damon Jenkins? And yet look at the level he has risen to. And a really interesting. I don't want to give away all of the emotional moments from the conversation.
- [03:36]
B
They were. It was an emotional conversation.
- [03:38]
A
Corey does really open up, not just about the doors being slammed in his face or the husky dogs chasing him down the driveway, but also some other issues that he's had to contend with as his star has risen.
- [03:51]
B
Yeah, no, it's a very emotional conversation. There's also good business stuff in there, too. My personal favorite is the Mariah Carey principle, which Corey explains is kind of a way that you get paid as an interior designer. Get paid like Mariah Carey. I think Corey will break it down if you listen to the conversation, but I think that's probably good advice for anyone trying to get paid. So I like that as well.
- [04:12]
A
Such a great lesson. And he has a lot of great metaphors that he uses throughout the conversation. I need to work on my metaphors. Corey is definitely reminding me well.
- [04:19]
B
That's why he has a masterclass and you don't. Dennis.
- [04:23]
A
Precisely. Fred. Thank you for driving that home. But it was a great conversation and I really appreciate it. I know many people have written saying how much they enjoyed it, so I appreciate that as well. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Chelsea House. Celebrated designer Amanda Lindroth is bringing her signature island style to High point. Amanda is introducing her line of furniture, accessories and lighting in partnership with Chelsea House, the storied North Carolina based company. Think sun bleached neutrals, breezy verandas and Old World charm. From hand woven trays to scalloped side chairs, each piece captures the effortless elegance of island life. The Amanda Lindroth Home Collection debuts during High point Market on October 23rd through the 29th. Preview the line at amandalindroth.com or chelseahouse inc.com and come celebrate with Amanda at her book signing Cocktail soiree on Saturday, October 25th from 4 to 6pm this podcast is sponsored by Newport Brass. For over 35 years, Newport Brass has handcrafted solid brass kitchen and bath faucets made to last for generations. Inspired by coastal elegance, these fixtures balance east coast tradition and with west coast ease, offering timeless silhouettes and uncompromising craftsmanship. With a pallet of 22 finishes and endless configurations, Newport Brass gives every project presence, purpose and distinction. See what's possible@newportbrass.com and we're back. We cannot escape the T word here, Fred on the show. So we're going to talk about tariffs.
- [06:21]
B
So we just play an old episode here. Just use the, use the conversation from three months.
- [06:26]
A
Exactly.
- [06:27]
B
The president's latest tariffs went into effect on Tuesday, covering lumber, upholstery and kitchen cabinetry. Meanwhile, there's talk of a new trade war as Trump floated a 100% tariff on Chinese goods. Fun stuff. Dennis, what are your thoughts?
- [06:44]
A
Yes, fun stuff. And we should, we should break it all down. I mean, the 100% tariff was the first, first time that the market had a really strong reaction. I feel like the market had been taking it in stride up until, up until Friday where that just seemed, wow, that seemed pretty dramatic. But let's go back and sort of talk about where we are because some have actually started to kick in this very day.
- [07:07]
B
Yes, the 100%. It's kind of like a fantasy tariff. There are real tariffs that we should talk about just to try and break them down as concisely as possible. There's a lot of them. So starting with upholstery, there's now across the board, 25% tariff on upholstered furniture, which will kick into 30% starting January 1st. So that's everywhere in the world, with a few exceptions, the UK, the EU. There's also a 25% tariff on kitchen cabinetry, which is going to pump up to 50% on January 1, again across the world, with the exception of those regions. And there's a flat 10% tariff on lumber. So those are the three big new tariffs that have gone into effect this week. There's lots of intricacies to it because for the most part, these tariffs don't stack on top of the country specific tariffs. Like, for example, Vietnam, which has a current 20% tariff on everything else. It's not 25% plus 20%. So it's just the higher number, the upholstery. 25% is what's currently being charged. So I do apologize for getting into the weeds, but bottom line, those three categories are affected. The numbers are going to go up a little bit on January 1st. Have I already lost half our audience, Dennis? I apologize.
- [08:16]
A
Exactly.
- [08:16]
B
It's hard. There's a lot to keep track of. No, no, no.
- [08:19]
A
There's a lot to keep track of. And again, these are very meaningful and they. And they're hitting all sorts of parts of the industry. And as we've talked about repeatedly on the show, once we started to talk about lumber and kitchen cabinetry, we start to really get into the makeup of home prices. And so it becomes very real.
- [08:43]
B
It's interesting because there's sort of like a two sides of the brain when it comes to these tariffs. Let's kind of home in on the upholstery tariffs. So if you look at China, for example, most people have been trying to aggressively move out of China already. So I'm just going to leave that aside, move over to Vietnam, where a lot of upholstery production has gone from China. Now, Vietnam already had 20% tariffs, so it's not like you go from zero to 50. This is 20 to 25. So it's a little bit of a hike with the 30% on the horizon. So one way to look at this is like, okay, same as it ever was. You know, we're just going to have to raise prices. On the other hand, you know, when you go from 20 to 30 over the course of a few months, that that's a big jump. And so, you know, I do think a lot of people there are sort of wondering what their next move is. I speak to so many people, I don't know if you hear the same that just don't believe that these numbers are permanent. There's a really pervasive sense when you talk to people who import from Southeast Asian countries, India in particular, that just do not believe these numbers are real. And I don't know if they know something. I don't. But the numbers are currently getting charged right now. So real in the long term. Or not they're real right now.
- [09:48]
A
Well, and I think again, that's why we haven't seen even more dramatic declines with some of these companies. If we look at the stock price of RH and Williams Sonoma and even Wayfair, which has had a great big run, didn't have an enormous pullback on all of this. But at the same time, these charts certainly looked better a few months before all of this was announced. So whether or not we're really going to see the full dramatic extent of all these tariffs remains to be seen. There is a great deal of skepticism, but a lot of people are wondering, are we shifting to these very product specific categories instead of countries? Because some of the countries country tariffs might later get overturned. And this is a way of ensuring that these tariffs are put into play one way or another.
- [10:37]
B
Yeah, that's a whole other question. I mean, I can't believe we're talking about the Supreme Court, but that is part of it as well, I think for the time being. And this is obvious, and we say this every time, but look, prices have already gone up. They're going to keep going up. You know what I mean? No one can sit on an increasing 5 more percent, 10 more percent. And even though people believe long term these might get negotiated down, they've been on long enough that people have gone through their warehouse in the United States. So you are going to see prices on upholstery go up. The other side of this is the intended beneficiaries of this, of course, the domestic upholstery manufacturers. Last week we talked, or maybe the week before we talked about how cabinetry manufacturers. There actually is a constituency of people who are very happy about these tariffs. It's much harder to find that in the domestic upholstery world. Most of them have very mixed feelings about these tariffs. I think that the general consensus is that on the one hand it is exciting because they all get lots of calls from retailers who are like, well, can you take my business? How much is it going to cost? But most of them, even with the tariffs, are still more expensive than a Southeast Asian supplier. There's kind of a disconnect. They get calls, but none of it really turns fully into business. And then there's the concern that it's just going to drag down the overall market, make people buy cheaper, make people buy less. And that's the one thing nobody wants wherever you are on the market.
- [11:57]
A
Well, exactly as we've talked about, we tried and you reached, reached out to a lot of people to Hear who was feeling positively about all of this.
- [12:06]
B
The search, the quest for that opinion.
- [12:08]
A
And the answer is that most people in the industry just don't feel it's going to be good for the entire ecosystem. And so that's the big concern. So even if there are pockets of people and companies who will benefit, I think in general they just fear this brings the whole industry down. And your point about inflation? People keep trying to say that this isn't going to be inflationary. Okay, it isn't, except everyone's raising prices. So whatever you want to call that, if you don't want to call that inflation, okay. But I guarantee you everyone's raising prices. There you go.
- [12:42]
B
Especially within our world, there may be other consumer goods that are going down. I don't follow the price of gasoline that much because I live in Brooklyn, like an elitist hipster snob. But prices of furniture are going up. So that is one certainty we can take away from all this uncertainty.
- [12:58]
A
Exactly. And that's the final word. Prices are going higher. Look for that at a furniture market near you. Moving on, we're gonna talk about Kelly Wurstler. The multi talented designer has a new venture, side Hustle, dedicated to collaboration across artistic disciplines. It's a little bit gallery, it's a little bit E commerce, it's a little bit. Please don't tell me it's NFTs, Fred. No, I can't go back there.
- [13:22]
B
I think Kelly has moved on from NFTs. It's one thing we know more about what it isn't than what it is. Yes. So this is Side Hustle, which is a new venture from Kelly Wurstler. I think it's basically a gallery. She's assembled a group of artists who largely make kind of what you would call collectible design or art furniture, some people might call it. But she's kind of encouraging them to collaborate across disciplines. There's also a performance component as well. And the press release talks about bringing in people from all different. There was jewelry, culinary artists, or the automotive designers. I think she kind of wants it to be again. Gallery. Yes, but a little bit a gallery plus, I think is the idea here.
- [14:03]
A
I've often looked at Kelly Werstler and her portfolio and thought, this woman needs a side hustle. This woman doesn't have enough going on. Right. You know, she's obviously got a lot of time on her hands. I'm sure she could use a good side hustle. And apparently, I mean, as you say, she's. She says she's going to Tell us more about this in her substack on Friday. So I'm sure we'll be talking about this again in the near future, but it does sound like perhaps a lot of industrial designers are going to have an opportunity to collaborate again. Not only do I not want it to be about NFTs, but I hope none of this happens in the metaverse or like a. Right.
- [14:42]
B
Well, it's the opposite of the metaverse. It's happening in Kelly Wearsler's pool house in her bever. No, sincerely, that's the first exhibit is. It's.
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A
That's where it's being shown.
- [14:50]
B
Exactly. In her Beverly Hills, which is the opposite of the metaverse. Yeah. I don't know. It's interesting. I mean, I think, like, as you said, I sort of felt like Kelly Wirth substack was her side hustle. So here's the side hustle on top of that. I mean, she definitely is like a restless talent. She does all kinds of different things. She always experiments with the new new. And I think that. I wouldn't say that her interest in collectible design or whatever you want to call artsy furniture is new. She's been working with these people for a long time. But I think kind of bringing it all together under one banner and making it her project is kind of new. I mean, I think, as always, I think Kelly Oersler is an early adopter of cultural stuff. And I think that we talked about either last week or the week before about how there needs to be more merging of this, the collectible design world, the kind of artsy salone world, and the high point working interior designer world. And I think this is a perfect example of that. I think Kelly Werstler is someone who's known to both sides of that Venn diagram. So I'll be candid. I don't know exactly what this is. I think we kind of need to see more, but I suspect that it will bring together a lot of people from both sides of that equation. And I'm all for that.
- [16:00]
A
No, I agree. And I love the way that she sh. Shines a light on a lot of different cultural aspects. And certainly her conversations about AI and how she's been incorporating it into her work has done a great deal to raise awareness of perhaps the good and the bad of what might be happening there. But I would love it if she can shine a light on some great designers who might not otherwise get as much attention. And so it'll be really interesting to see the collaborations that come out of this, and as you say, we're gonna learn a lot soon, so stay tuned for that. In the meantime, we're going to move on to talk about housing. Fred?
- [16:42]
B
Yes, the spring and summer buying seasons are over and they were both duds, but now we're in autumn, the Fed is lowering interest rates. And it seems like a good time to look at a few stories from the housing market, starting with the very tippy top, the luxury market. How's the luxury market doing, Dennis?
- [16:58]
A
Is it slowing down a little bit? Has it, has it come off the high heat? The numbers certainly suggest that, yes.
- [17:05]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think we should do our little caveat we tend to do before housing stories. Housing is not a national news story. We may be saying, oh, luxury is slowing down. And you may be listening to this going, that's the opposite is true for me because it's market to market, it's region to region. But when you look at these big national numbers, and Redfin just released a big study that was covered in the Wall Street Journal and it showed that the luxury market, which has really been the one bright spot over the past two years, everything else is frozen, not really moving, but the 1% has been doing relatively well and humming along. Their recent numbers show that actually luxury is starting to slow down. The Nationwide sales dropped 0.7%, which doesn't sound like a lot, but is a low point. It's the lowest level for this sort of end of summer period since 2013. Actually, prices are kind of stalling. Inventory's piling up a little bit. So the luxury part of the market is at least in a bit of a freeze alongside the rest of the housing market. Why do you think that might be, Dennis? Any possible guesses as to what's going on there?
- [18:07]
A
Well, I love the Realtor who was quoted in that article as saying that the luxury buyers are moving as slow as molasses. And I think a lot of the reason for that is, guess what? All of this tariff news, all of this market uncertainty, we always say that, oh, it doesn't affect the high end home buyer because they don't take out mortgages. So what do they care about rates? Well, you know what? They, they care about a lot of things that are going on in the world right now. And there's just a lot of uncertainty with regard to policy altogether. And as everyone who comes on who is familiar with the high end of the market, they talk about how it's all about mood and it's all about feeling and it's all about emotion. And so if the news is, oh, my gosh, there's gonna be 100% tariffs on China. Yeah. Even the high end of the market just slows down and says, let's see where this settles out. And I think that there's a lot of that feeling going on.
- [19:08]
B
Yeah, it's really kind of the VI slice of the market, which is really interesting, actually. And I would agree with all of that. There's just so much uncertainty. People are talking now. AI has really been keeping the stock market soaring to new heights. And there's ever more conversation. Are we in a bit of an AI bubble? And I think people are looking at that and wondering if now is really the perfect time to buy and sell a home. Now, I do think that this, more than any other housing news matters for interior designers, because that's the target audience is the luxury home market. And I think that it's tough to rely on anecdotal evidence, because for every designer you talk to, there's one who has the opposite experience. But I will say little drips and drabs of people saying, oh, my pipeline hasn't been really good. I haven't got as many new projects as I thought I would. I need to find my projects for 2026. I've been hearing that more and more, and I do think it comes down to people being a little bit gun shy about making a big decision. I hope if you're listening to this, that the opposite is true for you. But if you're hearing this and you're like, yes, that's me, know that you're not alone. There is a little bit of a slowdown, at least in what I'm hear anecdotally, and I suspect it's related to this.
- [20:16]
A
You know who's also been impacted, Fred? Home builders. Home builders have been quite impacted.
- [20:22]
B
Yes. Those poor souls, those home builders. So, like, one of the interesting things about the home building world is that when the market is kind of cool or cold, as it has been for the past couple of years, what home builders do to try incentivize people to, you know, purchase their services and build a home or buy a home that's already built, they offer what's called an incentive. So they'll offer like 5,000 cash back right away or. Or they'll buy down the mortgage rate. So instead of paying 8% or whatever, you're effectively paying a 5%. There's all these incentives. And those incentives are a sign that the market is not doing great. Because if it wasn't doing great. They wouldn't need to offer them and they're like an all time high or a five year high. I think right now the 66% of home builders are offering some sort of incentive. So much so that recently Lennar, one of the big high end home builders, told its investors, we gotta pause on this cause we're losing money. You know, it's become such a, you know, a modus operandi for them that it's really hurting their margins.
- [21:15]
A
Well, exactly. And as you and I were talking about right before the show, home builders have been building in these incentives, whether they be buying down mortgage rates or offering basically lower mortgage rates for the first few years to help you get that house for a lower price and settle in for a little while before that rate starts to creep back up. But they've also been throwing in washers and dryers and all, I mean, all sorts of a new car. There's all sorts of promotions that home builders have been offering and they've been doing it for far longer than they thought they were going to have to. Remember, we thought rates were coming down dramatically a year ago and they didn't. And so home builders have been offering these incentives for far longer than they had imagined. And it's eating into their margins, of course. And guess what? The houses aren't moving. So they're offering these incentives and, and there's still a lot of properties left to sell. And the administration is saying, hey, you need to build more homes. But between the tariffs and just the overall market confusion and the fact that rates haven't moved down, there's just a lot that's moving in the wrong direction for home builders.
- [22:30]
B
Yeah, the tariffs really do matter for home builders. Right. Because steel and aluminum are really key homebuilding materials. Lumber obviously, which got a new 10% tariff, is a key home building material. So prices are definitely going to go up for them and they're concerned about that. I guess the ideal, the silver lining or the hope is that if the Fed continues to cut interest rates, it will bring mortgages down evermore in the months ahead. And maybe in 26 we can get some stability on the tariffs so at least people can plan around them. It's not like there's no potential good end in sight. There are things that could go the right direction, but right now they're really gritting their teeth and trying to get through this period without, without losing the, losing the farm. It's a, it's a weird time for them.
- [23:15]
A
It is. And it's also a weird Time for younger people. We're going to talk about Gen Z buyers. A lot of, a lot of press recently about the fact that Gen Z is investing in the stock market, which is at all time highs instead of buying homes. But that's only part of the story there and certainly housing affordability is another big part of it.
- [23:36]
B
Yeah, just some interesting data from the Wall street journal. So 37% of 25 year olds used investment, they buy stocks themselves versus 6% in 2015. I don't think it's too complicated. Why? I think there's all kinds of apps like Robinhood now that allow people to buy stocks. But it's also like you think about somebody who's 25 years old. With the exception of the COVID dip in March of 2020, stocks have been on a crazy tear. It's so much more lucrative to own the S and P than it is to simply own a home which kind of ticks up year by year slowly in value. The caveat to that is you can't live in your stock. Portfol. I do think that it's not as simple as kids today are spending it all on Avocado toast and Tesla options. I think it's definitely an affordability issue. Is it first time buyers? Is it a very low percentage, maybe an all time low percentage of the housing market? It's largely older people who are buying homes. Millennials really haven't quite caught up yet. There's all kinds of questions around if this continues to last, what that's going to do down the line for, for future design clients, frankly.
- [24:43]
A
Well, exactly. And this is where the trouble really begins. Because if young people coming up in the world start to believe that homeownership is out of their reach and they prioritize putting their money elsewhere, then they don't start to move up the home buying ladder. Buying that first entry level home and then selling that and buying the next home when it's time to raise a family. And if we start to convince young people and if we as a nation start to no longer believe that home ownership is an important part of building our future, then you know who's gonna be in trouble is furniture makers and fabric companies and everybody who is outfitting those homes as people move up the ladder. So it's a great concern if a whole generation believes that this isn't for them and there are other things that they want to do with their money. There's so much that's written today about young people want to have experiences and they care more about that than investing a home or they're buying stocks instead. And that's great, but it's a real concern longer term for the housing industry, for the furnishings industry and certainly for interior designers as well. Because these are your future clients or maybe not.
- [26:09]
B
Well, this is a very glum little end to end. I think there's lots of very present concerns around housing market. I do think that Gen Z is still young. It's not crazy that they're not buying up homes in droves. But your point about climbing up the housing ladder is a good one. And they need to get on that first rung if they're going to get up to the rung where they hire a designer. So let's hope the stock market crashes and people put all that money into a house. No, I think it's an interesting little wrinkle of the market, but I'm knocking on, on wood that it's not a, you know, permanent state of state of play.
- [26:42]
A
Well, I hope so as well. But, but as you pointed out, the, the average age of a first time home buyer has moved up dramatically in, in recent years because young people just don't feel that it's within reach and we need to figure that out. But we're gonna move on. And talk about a hot take from House and Garden. The other week, writer Claudia Bailey explored whether a good interior needs to be photogenic, posing the question, do we design for the lived experience, the perfect shot or both? What do you think, Fred?
- [27:15]
B
That is a hot take. That is a. These are the pressing questions of our day. No, I actually, I think this is actually truly a fascinating issue. I know you posted about this on Instagram. What did the people say? What did the designer say, Dennis?
- [27:26]
A
So first of all, they seem to feel very strongly that no. 70% say no, it doesn't need to be photogenic. Darn it, 30% say yes. But many a thoughtful designer said to me, well, it depends what you're doing. So everyone told me, if you're doing a show house, then yes, you need it to be photogenic because that needs to work overtime for you. And our friend Billy Seglia weighs in and says that yes, if you're doing the show house, then it needs to be photogenic. But he says this photogenic thing has been the downfall of our industry. Too many overly styled photos, impractical setups with captions like, I love the way we live. You can't possibly love it. No place to put down a drink, he said. So he's very passionate about it. And a Lot of designers feel the same way. They feel as though, can it be livable and also brilliantly photogenic? And the answer is no. What do you think, Fred?
- [28:29]
B
I think we need to get Billy Seglia podcast. I think that's a great take. Yeah. I mean, in all seriousness, I do think this is actually a fascinating issue because I agree with most of what your poll respondents said. I've been in many, many lovely homes that feel wonderful when you're in them, you pull out your iPhone and take a picture, it just looks like nothing. You know what I mean? Whereas you look at some of the photographs that are on the COVID of Architectural Digest or any magazine, really, and you look at them, and they're wonderful images. But then you think about, like, well, what would it actually feel like to live in that room? And it probably would feel a little weird. I do think there is. Is this strange because we've become such a visually oriented culture. We're pelted with images all day long. Something has to be so extreme to stand out. I think it has pushed interior design, at least sort of the editorial version of interior design, towards something that is so stylized that it really is a little bit divorced from reality and divorced from livability. And I think that gap just grows wider by the year. I think this is a real weird little interesting challenge.
- [29:31]
A
I think it's such an interesting conversation. And so many designers. Designers shared with me and have shared with me in the past that they marvel sometimes when the photographer comes in and the stylist and they bring all these props and branches and ducks and geese and all of these catamaran thinking and wasn't my room beautiful to begin with? And they feel a little bit. And so many photographers talk about, oh, you know, it's so challenging when I'm doing the shoot and the designers that. And I have to move that chair because that chair is just in the wrong place for this shot. And that's where I think this issue of is it livable? Is it photogenic? And can they be both? Is challenging, but I think there is a lot of sensitivity around. Boy, they have to do a lot of work to get a photo of my beautifully designed room.
- [30:26]
B
Well, I mean, but I mean, I think on the flip side, that's kind of like an argument for why for tomorrow photographers are so valuable because I think that they really do bring a lot to the table to make an image of a room, something that can be sold and put into a magazine. Because, as you say, there is a lot of tweaking that goes on. I think photographs, they're kind of lies. They're beautiful lies. But there's so much that's tweaked to get it to be something that sort of works as a photograph, and I think it's really intriguing. I think most designers, frankly, don't really design with the photograph in mind. I think they're designing for the lives of their clients. Clients. I think at the end of the day, that's what really matters. And I think most people sort of understand that. But I do think we've developed a visual culture where people just sort of consume interior design, and most of what they're consuming is like a weird, hyper manicured, hyper stylized, unreal. Do we have some sort of unrealistic body image problem with unrealistic interior design? I do think it must be infecting the culture in ways that are maybe hard to understand while we're in it, But I think we'll look back on this age as kind of a weird one.
- [31:30]
A
I think it's very challenging, and I do think that you have to take photography into account much more than you did, certainly in the pre Instagram age. I think that now that tool is so powerful that it's perhaps a mistake to not really be thinking about that more.
- [31:48]
B
You know, by contrast, if you look at old shelter magazines, sometimes it's like, almost underwhelming. You're like, okay, this looks nice, but what's really special about it? And I think that it's because our eyes have been become so desensitized to sort of a normal, nice, regular, old, beautiful home that we need something that's kind of extreme and crazy. I don't know. I clearly could talk about this for a long time. I think we're running out of time on the podcast here, but kudos to House and Garden and Claudia Bailey for bringing this up because I think it's a fascinating issue.
- [32:17]
A
I agree, and I'm grateful to so many designers who wrote in to share their thoughts with me. It's a really interesting issue. And maybe, maybe it's a panel that I need to put together and have some people at High Point or elsewhere to talk about it, because it's a fun one. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including four designers on how they advertise their services and our guide to High Point Market. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. This break is brought to you by Newport Brass trusted by designers. For more than three decades, Newport Brass has handcrafted solid brass kitchen and bath faucets made to last for generations. With a palette of 22 finishes and endless configurations, Newport Brass gives every project presence, purpose and distinction. See what's possible at Newport Brass. Imagine having the hottest products in home furnishings right at your fingertips and at your doorstep in days. Imagine walking through a showroom where every turn of your head is an aha moment and every turn of a corner takes you into a new world of inspiration. Stop imagining and start experiencing. You'll find the best of today in the best place at High Point one Market. Stop into the Chelsea House showroom at High Point Market, 200 North Hamilton, October 23rd through the 29th, or visit online at Chelsea House Inc.com and we're back. I'm joined now by the founder and editor in chief of Cultured magazine, Sarah Harrelson. Sarah, thank you so much for us joining.
- [34:08]
C
Thank you so much for having me on today.
- [34:10]
A
For those who might not be familiar, tell us about Cultured and we'll get into a little bit of the history of how it came about. But just tell people what it is.
- [34:19]
C
It is a print magazine first and foremost, chronicling covering the art world. And then from there we do we branch out. We touch film, we touch food, we touch literature, and we often look at how the those creative industries intersect. And of course, we're a very print first product. I started the magazine in 2012 and I invested in paper. That was something that was very important to me early on. Had I known how expensive it would have been, I maybe would have reconsidered that first leap into my very luscious matte paper. Of course we have a robust digital platform as how could we not? But I do tend to think about Cultured as a print first publication and a storytelling platform that is really interested in emerging talent, is really interested in covering people that perhaps have been overlooked by mainstream media. And as we're on deadline now for my 10th annual Young Artist list, which has been something that has been incredibly important to me and to the mission and ethos of the magazine. And, you know, I always feel as if, you know, you're holding someone's career in your hands or you're holding their story and that's dear to them and how you tell it, you know, really matters.
- [35:47]
A
And let's talk about what had informed that vision that you had.
- [35:52]
C
I am a lover of print magazines. I am an absolute utter fan and lover of print media media since I was in college, maybe even before the art world was more new to me. I didn't grow up in the art world. I hadn't necessarily covered the art world until a few years before I started the magazine. And when I started the magazine and, you know, I was really excited and I was really, truly and sincerely interested in all these parts of the creative world and the contemporary art world. So I think my, you know, I had two lenses, right? So I think my lens for content was that. And then also I had. Although I had been an editor in chief in several different scenarios, I never really had full creative freedom. Right. And so all of a sudden I had visual freedom. And so my other lens was like, I just want to kind of like, do this a little bit differently and lay it out a little bit differently and kind of truly break some of the rules that had been ingrained in me.
- [36:53]
A
Well, and I'm curious to that point, what you have learned, it takes. So having a passion for print magazines and having 80 pound paper stock and a great big oversized book, what does it take to support that in today's world where everyone wants to tell you all the reasons why print publications don't work in the same way that they want and that the economics of it are just vastly different, what did you discover you had to do to continue to make the magazine you wanted to make?
- [37:30]
C
It takes a lot. Yeah, but I believe anything takes a lot. This constant, like, print is dead does tend to drive me crazy because I just don't really think it's accurate. Not necessarily for cultured, but for anyone. I mean, I go to the newsstands in New York City and I constantly discover new amazing titles. I see stacks and stacks of magazines. I wait in line to buy magazines. So is the print world what it was when I entered it? Unrecognizable? Not even close. But does it still matter? Absolutely, 100%. We're not treated the same way that we were 20 years ago. It's not valued the same way. And doing it is hard work, no matter what level you do it on. So I think it takes being a good listener, being agile, being flexible, being able to move quickly through things. I mean, I've been called on a Tuesday and said, can you do an event on a Friday? And I'm like, sure. I've been called on a Tuesday and said, can you shoot in the outskirts of Italy on Thursday? And I say, sure, you know, so it's like, you know, we, we're, we're able. I mean, and again, that's what I love about a Small company, we're able to move quickly, we're able to turn things around quickly. And, you know, sometimes I think when a small team comes together and they have a shared passion and a shared goal, you, you really, you, you know, you pitch above your weight. And, you know, print is, Is still our, you know, it's 51% of our revenue. So I think that, sure, I know everyone says, oh, you know, it's a brand or this one's a brand. And to me, it's semantics. But I think what is important in a magazine today is to really have a relationship with your reader base.
- [39:07]
A
So let's talk about the art world, because the art world has changed a great deal. And so from the people that you talk to and what you see lots of media coverage in the last few months about, oh, the art world prices aren't going for what they were a few years ago. Everyone perceives there's this shift or slowdown in the marketplace. Is that how the art world tends to see it? Is that what is really happening?
- [39:35]
C
Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly.
- [39:36]
A
Right now, what do you think or what do your colleagues think is. Is at the center of that?
- [39:43]
C
I mean, I think that's complicated to answer, and there's a lot of factors going into that. And I also think that let's call it end of 20, 20, 21, 22 was an art world like no other. Right. There were, as you know, been well documented, you know, 500 people waiting lists to get a painter that no one's heard of. And so it kind of, it reached this fever pitch. And so I think, of course, it had to normalize. Normalize. And I don't believe that we are in a place of, you know, I think a lot of people are concerned about young people being more interested in experiences versus objects. The kind of the next generation of young collector of young philanthropists, however you want to look at it. I meet a lot of really and even some last week young collectors, you know, call it under 40 people who are really intrigued by the, you know, I think in my opinion, it will continue. The young collectors will continue to grow and have interest. And, you know, as I leave from London tomorrow night, I feel like every single person I know is going to, you know, the art fairs and will be in London and Paris and there's a lot of amazing things to see and, you know, have people to come together. So I believe strongly in that. And I also believe strongly that a little correction is good.
- [40:59]
A
So when you go to London, are there, are there events that cultured is doing as part of the art fairs that are going on.
- [41:06]
C
Yeah, I mean, this year we're just doing. We're doing a very small breakfast at the Dorchester, and that will bring together, you know, curators and artists and dealers and collectors. And then in Paris, we are launching Cultured at Home, our new magazine, More Paris at a collector's home on Wednesday night. So those are our two events.
- [41:28]
A
Well, so let's talk about that. So let's talk about this Paris introduction, and let's talk about Cultured at Home. And so, I mean, I think, you.
- [41:36]
C
Know, I thought long and hard before, of course, I started another print publication. But my editor is a woman named Alexander Cunningham, who I have known since, I think since before I started the magazine. She was involved with Design Miami early on. She's incredibly talented, has incredible vision, and we work well together. So I kind of had all of these things making me feel comfortable to take this leap into another print publication. And also, I think a little bit just about the design world on a whole. And I think there was room for something a little different.
- [42:14]
A
Tell me where the white space is in the home world that you felt that you were coming into.
- [42:18]
C
I mean, I think it's just kind of like, you know, kind of looking, you know, what's out there and what does very well and figuring out, is there another path? Is there a different way to look at this world? Are there different kinds of people that we want to cover? And, you know, Aaron Knutson, who was our creative director and Alexandra came together, and we've just. We've kind of looked at it in a really unique, I think way instead of necessarily just through, like, you know, a designer lens, it's more of how, like, people who've had this rich life or creativity and how they choose.
- [42:56]
A
But are the Kardashians represented? I mean, really. I mean, is there room for that?
- [43:01]
C
I'm not gonna say that I would kick a Kardashian out, but there are no Kardashians in cold.
- [43:06]
A
The first issue does not have Kardashians. We can confirm that.
- [43:11]
B
Okay.
- [43:11]
C
We can confirm that. But anyway, so I'm very excited to bring this. I'm very proud. I'm very proud of what we put together. And I think it's important to keep pushing. I think it's important to keep challenging yourself. I think it's important to keep, you know, forward momentum and. And that's, you know, that that's what this is. I mean, it's. It's not a not calculated risk, but.
- [43:36]
A
It'S A risk, sure. And, and how much is a copy of Cultured at Home going to be? What's the, what's the $50 price? 50 bucks?
- [43:44]
C
I thought you were making fun of 30, so this one's even more.
- [43:49]
A
But I mean, that's interesting. And you've listen and you've chosen to go that route and to say, look, this is how much it costs and I don't know what your subscriber base is for Cultured, but I know you've got, you know, a core subscriber base and then I'm assuming you sell a lot of one. Off course, how big Newsstand is for you. But.
- [44:09]
C
And also, I mean, I think it's kind of, you know, I mean, I launched also the paywall for, for the Cultured site in June. And you know, I think it's just also signaling kind of there's a lot that goes into this and it matters and it costs money. You know, I think it's kind of that simple and most people show up for it. But yes, no, I mean, look, it's all scary, of course. I mean, we're all battling for eyeballs every single day and listeners and all of the things. But yes, no, it was great. I'm thrilled. I did it. I wish I did it.
- [44:40]
A
Is that how you feel? You wish you had done it sooner.
- [44:42]
C
Now that it's like a year ago.
- [44:43]
A
Sooner, so because it's leading to that many conversions for you? Well, so to that point about competing for eyeballs and what you have to do, what are you finding today is what generates the traffic, what's getting people's attention?
- [44:58]
C
I mean, I think for us it's a combination, right? It's old fashioned service journalism. Here are 14 shows you need to see in London next week. Here are 10 solo shows not to miss. And seeing where traffic comes from is really interesting. I tend to look at Instagram newsletter, web print. I tend to look at them kind of as little tiny mini businesses and on occasion one feeds to the other. You know, I think it's kind of that constant conversation. Do you want someone to stay on your newsletter? Are you trying to drive them to your website or you want, you know, And I'm always like, well, both. Well, it depends. Well, it depends on the story. It depends on, you know, so I think, obviously newsletter drives a lot of traffic. I think Instagram, from what I understand, drives a little bit less to our site than industry standard. But I know that as I'm sure, as you know, these things change.
- [45:44]
A
Sure.
- [45:45]
C
I mean, we try you know, headlines are so important. You know, I just recently looked at our top stories of the year. And of course, cult 100, as of right now, is a top story. Our Walton Goggins story is very high up, but I think in what month are we. In October? I think in the month of September, our top 10 stories, eight of them were literature stories, writers, new books, and food is a growing vertical for us. We just did a story on 25 chefs giving recommendations, which was widely shared. And that's the other thing that I think is exciting, frankly, about media is how these metrics change. It's like, now we just want certain amount of shares, and we want to. It's just looking at what people respond to and why in a given day, we do some news within the art world, but we don't do, like, all news, which is a little bit unique. So we just feel if it's something that's very important to our audience, like, of course, the big Amy Sherrill announcement with the museum with her painting getting censored. We obviously immediately posted that. But we don't always post breaking news within that world. But when we do, it does very well.
- [46:51]
A
And criticism fairly new.
- [46:54]
C
So Criticism is about 14 months old. We started that, and it's done unbelievably well. I mean, it's another thing that it's like. I think our top stories were. Like, three of the top stories were from the critics table, which is a platform. And it's funny because when I started the magazine, I didn't want to do criticism. I was like, I want to be different. I don't want to do what I want to do. I want to be very, you know, profile led and do it a different way. And then, of course, the media landscape shifted, and I felt like this was such an important moment and this is such an important thing to artists. I mean, if you look at our subscriber base at the critics table, it's almost half artists. I mean, artists want this, and I'm so lucky to work with people like Johanna Fateman and John Vinsler. And then, of course, they also hire certain critics each week to do our weekly in briefs and our roundups. And that platform has exceeded all of my goals.
- [47:47]
A
So why did art want the criticism?
- [47:51]
C
Of course, they want someone to tell them how they feel about their work and to read about other artists critically.
- [47:56]
A
And to read about other artists and what they're saying about them. It's interesting. And part of the reason that I ask is because we often talk on this show about the fact that we don't have criticism in the home world. I know there's nobody who's writing, hey, this is a great interior and here's why. Or this is less great. And here's what I think they're trying to do, but they're not doing it. Whatever. We don't have that. And, and it's one of the few areas where it doesn't exist and people are very divided about whether they want it or don't want it, or how they feel about it or don't. But. So it's interesting to hear you say that the artists wanted that.
- [48:35]
C
I mean, I think obviously the dealers do too, but I think the artists really want it. I mean, you know, it's such an important part of the landscape. It's in such an, you know, to have such important writers talk about your work is. It's invaluable and it needs to be supported.
- [48:55]
A
One of the things I want to come back to is I love the fact that you mentioned good old fashioned service journalism, which we actually talk about quite a bit on the show. We do. And yes, and this used to be such an important role that publications played. Now, interestingly, somebody in the editorial world was saying to me recently, well, if ever anything is going away because of a AI, it's service journalism that will all be replaced by some AI bot that will have been trained on all the answers that you can get to whatever. And we do see that lots of traffic is going away to sites that used to answer various questions right on the site. And if that was all that was leading traffic to your site instead of great editorial content or whatever else, then sure, you've probably taken a great big hit because Google, Gemini or ChatGPT can answer all those questions for you now. But you have to come up with the better content and the better answers of things you need to do at this show or what you need to pack for London and Paris, you tell me.
- [49:55]
C
I mean, sure, I mean, I think we had a partnership recently with Samsung and I sat next to one of the executives who was partly responsible for launching YouTube in Asia. And he was a little bit older than I am and he was talking about certain, certain tech revolutionary moments and he was saying he's never ever seen a technology like AI and how it gets better every single day. But I think, you know, of course AI is going to, I mean, let's hope, be additive to whatever, maybe figure out how to, I figure, I have no idea. But, but I also think, and of course, like our service Journalism has such a lens, right? Like, it's, like it's kind of a little, I think. But interestingly enough, one of our top stories this summer was we were all brainstorming and my team came up with this idea and they said, we want to do the temperature of the museums at certain museums. We want to do, you know, here's the temperature at, you know, the seven best museums in New York City. And I thought, are you sure? Are you crazy? Anyway, it was one of our top stories of summer. So I think also having that you can take an editorial tone to service to journalism, right? And of course, when we do top stories, we do quite a bit of research into what stories are being included and what store, what, what shows. Excuse me, what shows are being included and what shows aren't being included and why and parts of the city and what kind of artist and level career. And, you know, we take a lot into that list. I'm sure AI could come up with a great list, but it would be a different list. So we'll see. We'll see what role this all plays. And I think that kind of goes back to having a small enough company that you can be reactive. I think it's important to, to watch the trends and see how people, what people react to, why they react to it. Not that you always know, but I think that's really important. I mean, obviously podcasting is such a wonderful medium too, and we've seen that grow a lot, but it's also now very crowded, too.
- [51:53]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. A lot of people have come into the space and it seems so easy to do, and people think, sure, we can have that as well. It's interesting. That's a medium that they thought was going away for a time. Oh, you know, but then some. Suddenly it's skyrocketed. And so to your point, you can never really tell.
- [52:11]
C
You can never really tell. But it's also like, I mean, they all have such an important place. I mean, like, when I listen to a podcast, I just have such a different feeling than reading an article. They're all important. I mean, we don't have. We need a podcast, but we don't have.
- [52:28]
A
Well, we'll talk. We'll talk.
- [52:29]
C
Exactly.
- [52:30]
A
But it's interesting because. And we were talking about earlier about print media. And so when I worked at Conde Nast, one of the big company wide presentations was the point of passion. And every publication was talking about how, whether you were reading Golf Magazine or the New Yorker or Architectural Digest, people just felt so passionate about the particular subject matter that they bothered to pay a subscription for, that they looked forward to the arrival of this thing in. In their mailbox. And it was something that they made time for, sat down, got their drink, whatever it was, got their cup of coffee and said, now I'm gonna spend time with this magazine. That feels so personal to me. And podcasts are the same way. If you listen to the same podcast, chances are you like that person's voice or you like how that person presents information or whatever it is, and it becomes comfortable. It becomes like, oh, yes, okay, the world is pretty stressful right now. Let me go escape into listening to this. And I think that's the opportunity, again, that whether it's print or digital, you have the opportunity to make this very deep personal connection that people become really, really passionate about.
- [53:51]
C
I think so too. And I think that is. I mean, obviously lifestyle media or things that are maybe too broad have had. Maybe they've had a harder time in recent decades. But I think, I mean, I would imag that the golf magazine still does well, or, you know, like, you know, these. These slightly more niche and targeted content lenses appealing to people's passion in certain areas they feel like they have to read. Those are. Those are important things and incredibly important, I think, to, as a media platform, continue cultivating, you know, and I mean, look, we talk about change. Like, the style of writing has changed.
- [54:29]
A
Yes.
- [54:29]
C
You know, I mean, the way people read newsletters, the way people write newsletters, the way people write profiles, like, you know, all of these things evolve. I mean, I'm always asking everyone on my team, what do you read? How do you read? When do you read? Why do you click on that? Why'd you click on that? Would you click on this subject line? Like, I'm constantly intrigued by different people, different age groups and what they read. I know my kids are all. They're big readers and they pay for subscriptions. I mean, they've never even thought that they could. Couldn't pay. They have all the subscriptions. And I think now with the rise of substack and that has a place too. But I still argue that people's media diet has changed. So when we started, or I started, it was like, you read a magazine or you watch tv, and now I think people's media diet's really different. It's like a podcast here, a substack there. And I honestly think that's.
- [55:21]
A
But before I let you go, tell me about how you're thinking about cultured at home. So the first issue is coming out in Paris. And you're gonna see it any day now. When you finally sent it off to the printer, are you thinking, okay, this is something we're gonna do a few times a year? This is something. How are you imagining it?
- [55:38]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think next year we're gonna do it once again. I mean, it is truly an object. It is truly something that. That is kind of like a little bit of a time capsule. And I think that my team is small and there's only, you know, there's only. You have to really think about where you put your attention and where you put your energy and how much you can handle before there's a breaking point. And we do a lot, and it was a big book to get out the door. And we're thrilled and we're proud and we think that next year, one time of year is the right choice for us with how much we publish everything else and obviously all the content we will, of course, roll out on coldred's digital platforms over the next three to five months. And next year we'll do it again, and then we'll kind of have a reassess and see if we want to go to two times a year.
- [56:30]
A
And do you want a bunch of designers to be sending you projects? Is that how you're putting it together? Or is it more that you're creating things and selecting things through your own lens?
- [56:40]
C
To your point, I've always been that kind of editor where it's kind of like it's somehow more rewarding to find the. But I mean, of course, people pitch us all the time, and we're constantly reviewing and friends with many designers and trying to find interesting projects. And the reason why we would publish them in a different way than, say, another shelter magazine would. And I think what we will do is we will continue a steady stream of content online. There will be a cultured at home dropdown menu on our website, and we will continue to do some of the digital verticals, create some of the content within our digital verticals and roll it out so there's a consistency throughout until the next print one comes out.
- [57:24]
A
And do you imagine showing up in the home world in much the same way that you have the art world? Can you imagine being at various furniture fairs or markets? Maison Objet, for example, or Deco off the big fabric show in. Can you imagine being there?
- [57:41]
C
Let's see. I mean, we will. We have special issues going to Pad London, and I think, you know, obviously Design Miami is very important to us. So I think we'll see. I mean, we'll see what opportunities present themselves and where it makes sense to have the magazine.
- [58:01]
A
Okay. Okay. But it sounds like we won't have to wait long to see Cultured at Home.
- [58:06]
C
You can order it online.
- [58:07]
A
You can order it online right now, and it's only 50 bucks, so, I mean, why not get more than one copy, right? I mean, but I'm so glad to get to talk to you, and I can't wait to see the magazine, and I appreciate your time very much.
- [58:21]
C
I really appreciate your time, and I hope to meet you.
- [58:27]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye forever. Caught your eye.
- [58:35]
B
I'm gonna swing it back to Kelly for a second. So we were talking about Kelly's new side Hustle Gallery, and one thing that really caught my eye that I have to sort of do a deeper dive on was in a Financial Times article about this gallery, they said that Kelly Wearstler's revenue from her product business was $150 million. Now, I don't know if that's an annual number, if that's a lifetime number, if that's everything in the California Kelly Werstler bucket, including her visual comfort, license, and everything else. But you so rarely see numbers like that in these kinds of articles that it really jumped out at me because that is extremely high. And, you know, kudos to Kelly for you know, being an excellent business person in addition to a creative talent. But I'm really going to try and find out what that number means, because that one certainly caught my eye. I don't know if it got your eye, Dennis, but it jumped out at me.
- [59:21]
A
It certainly did. And makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong. She's making that.
- [59:24]
B
Why is our furniture business only making $10 million a year? Anyway, the other thing that got my eye was a great article by our friend Leonora Epstein of Shmata, the Substack. Excellent substack. She actually was writing for Architectural Digest an article called Artech Bro Homes, the New Gilded Age Mansions, which I think is a great subject. It's just talking about, like, you know, we look back on, you know, the robber barons as these great patrons of architecture and a hunter hundred years. Are we going to look back on, you know, the Silicon Valley homes and giant modernist, you know, cubist mansions the same way? There's an interesting sort of exploration of that, that idea, and a good reason to check out Leonor's work. Actually, she's having an in person meetup for her substack here in New York later in October. I'll be going to that. So come on, swing on by for the substack IRL events as they come. Dennis, what of kind you are this week?
- [60:15]
A
Well, I love that. We'll have to find out more about that. I was fortunate enough yesterday. I was at the New York Design center and I got to pop into the newly opened Christopher Farcloth showroom and chatted briefly with the founder and creative director McCall Silver and she gave me a quick tour of the new space. Very exciting to have them there at the New York Design center that's on the seventh floor. And then I got to race up to the 10th floor for an event for Dovetail, which was having a big kickoff event there. They were giving some tours around the building to highlight all of the English and British makers and designers that were involved. Hats off to Sabine Rothman and Victoria Murray who are co founders of Dovetail and guest on the show. Sarah Spiteri from Homes and Gardens was there as well. She was taking some pictures, people around and and that was great to see. Get off the ground. Also, I wanted to mention we talked about Corey Damon Jenkins at the top of the show. I will be chatting live with Corey at the New York School of interior design on October 30th at the NISUD Auditorium. You can get tickets for that because I am kicking off my dialogues on design season for nisid. We've got a lot of amazing guests that are are lined up. In addition to Corey, we've got Andre Malone is coming, Nicole Hollis is coming and and even Ken Folk will be joining us in the spring. So looking forward to that. We've got a lot of, a lot of good people lined up and always a good conversation. Raising money for scholarship funds at nicet. So I hope as many as possible will join me live in New York. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneva. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.