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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Bernie de Le Cuona on her brand’s big move. Plus: A new deadline for the pause on tariffs
00:54:12
Host Dennis Scully and BOH editor in chief Kaitlin Petersen discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Bernie de Le Cuona joins the show to discuss her brand's big move.
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- [00:08]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to Bernie Delicona about her brand's big move. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including the latest on tariffs, a first look at the summer issue of BOH magazine, and a designer podcast that puts clients in the spotlight. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's editor in chief, Kaitlyn Peterson. Hi, Kaitlyn.
- [00:34]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:36]
Dennis Scully
Welcome back to the show. It's going great. Delighted to have you.
- [00:39]
Kaitlyn Peterson
It's always so good to be here. Thanks for having me.
- [00:41]
Dennis Scully
Well, it's a pleasure. Did you have a lovely fourth?
- [00:44]
Kaitlyn Peterson
I did. You know, a little bit of fireworks, a little bit of kayaking on the Hudson River. What about you?
- [00:49]
Dennis Scully
No kayaking on the Hudson river, sadly. But it was a lovely weekend otherwise. Very quiet. Did have the traditional barbecue outside and that was quite pleasant.
- [01:01]
Kaitlyn Peterson
It's funny how quiet everybody got this week. I feel like by the middle of the week last week, you were like, oh, no one wants to send emails. We're all just tiptoeing quietly away from our computers. Did you feel that sense of relief, too?
- [01:13]
Dennis Scully
I got a lot of notes from people hoping to catch you before you leave. Oh, were a lot of notes.
- [01:19]
Kaitlyn Peterson
I'm already gone. Yeah.
- [01:21]
Dennis Scully
Little do they know. I'm so bad at getting back to emails anyway that it doesn't matter whether it's a holiday or not.
- [01:27]
Kaitlyn Peterson
But we have that in common.
- [01:29]
Dennis Scully
Yes, I'm working on that. That's a problem I'm working on. Caitlin.
- [01:32]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Well, let's take a quick look back at Monday's episode. It was an interview with textile legend Christine Vanderheard. Her coming of age story to me was nothing short of extraordinary. The people, the places that she went, the things that she was doing. What was that conversation like for you? Just to kind of peel away the layers of her experience and her story.
- [01:54]
Dennis Scully
It's a remarkable story and it was such a privilege to get to go through it all with her. She's one of those people in the industry, Caitlin. And you were so right to use the word legendary. So many people wrote to me and said, oh, what a legend. I remember meeting her here, or I remember she showed up at my booth here, or I remember the first time I got to visit her studio and all that I learned and all that I got to see. She's one of those people that has had such an impact on the work of so many designers, so involved in Kit Kemp's work and she mentioned about Rita Koenig and so many others that have been in and out of her studio. I know last year at Destination London, some people got to come. I did, you included, and got so much out of that. So she's one of those people that people love to tell you the time that they met her or something that they learned from her. So it was a real privilege to get to interview her in that long form way that we get to on the BOH podcast.
- [02:57]
Kaitlyn Peterson
I mean, I think being in her studio, her firm has such a unique approach to doing custom work. And the way that they jump in with a design firm to really partner with you the entire way on anything you can possibly imagine is just so extraordinary. She gave this presentation and I think it, it was the first time I'd ever seen someone illustrate so clearly what it means when you say you can have whatever you want. That's such an arbitrary concept. Sometimes you're, well, what do I want? Anything. I don't know. And she showed just how they sort of hold your hand to unlock kind of this world of possibilities and you couldn't help but leave excited.
- [03:35]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, that's such a great point. I think so often, as you say, we talk about, oh, you can create whatever you like, but sometimes that's harder for people to even work with. Right. But she guides you through it and in such a kind and graceful way that I think she allows designers to really open up. And so she's a remarkable woman. It was a really fun conversation and so many greats were in her life over the years. Robert Mapplethorpe works his way in there and Andy Warhol's in there.
- [04:11]
Kaitlyn Peterson
A casual portrait with Annie Leibovitz.
- [04:13]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, there's some high class name dropping that goes on on the show and it's a good one, so I hope people will enjoy it. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by June Laloy. You likely already know Laloy, a prominent name in the design world known for rugs, now made its sister brand, June Laloy, a total home furnishings destination that expands on Laloy's expertise, adding furniture, lighting, decor, and, of course, more rugs. If you know Laloy, you know their collection leads with quality craft and great design. And June Laloy follows suit. With June Laloy's trade program, designers receive exclusive pricing, priority, customer support, and a seamless online sourcing experience. Visit junelloy.com today to explore the collection and sign up for A trade account. That's J o o n loloi.com and now on with the show. And we're back. Just when we thought we wouldn't have to talk about tariffs for a while. Caitlin, they're back.
- [05:33]
Kaitlyn Peterson
They're back. President Trump's 90 day pause on reciprocal tariffs was set to end this week until an executive order pushed the deadline back to August 1st. Now the US is threatening levies of at least 25% against 14 different countries and counting if trade agreements aren't reached. Dennis, what do you make of all this?
- [05:55]
Dennis Scully
Well, just when we thought the tariffs had gone away and that maybe this, this prolonged period of peace and quiet about all of this was, was meaning that they weren't really going to happen. This is a terrible reminder that, oh no, the president seems quite worked up about tariffs and, and is throwing a great many of them out as he did this past week.
- [06:15]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Absolutely. I mean, I think back in April we had Liberation Day. We covered that very closely. And when those tariffs that had been rolled out were put on pause, it was this 90 day pause. And I think the administration came with this idea that they were going to reach 90 deals in 90 days. Right. I believe there have been two deals so far that were announced, maybe three. And so it seems like as that July 9 deadline sort of inched closer and closer and closer, the Trump administration has really been looking for ways to jumpstart those talks and really get a deal on the books.
- [06:49]
Dennis Scully
Let's say that we should point out that we are. So we're recording because we need to timestamp this cuz it's ever changing. But we're recording Wednesday the 9th at almost 4 o' clock in the afternoon. And what we know so far, it seems like we've got some greater clarity on Vietnam. That seems like 20% tariffs so far we're feeling like tariffs on Japan, South Korea and Malaysia look like they're ending up at around 25%. Hard to know if any of this is going to really end up being the hard and fast. Japan has responded by saying that they're really not interested in playing this game. It sounded like. And so perhaps those tariffs are in fact going to go into place. I don't know if that has a huge impact. The Vietnamese tariffs, that seems like a sizable tariff, although far less than was originally proposed the day of that RH earnings call when all of this first got rolled out. But what's your sense of whether that will be meaningful?
- [07:48]
Kaitlyn Peterson
I don't think anybody who is importing out of Vietnam is excited about a 20% tariff. I do think they're breathing a sigh of relief that it's not the 46% tariff that it was announced back in April. That drop, though, from 46% to 20% is pretty notable. The Trump administration has been sending out these letters sort of reminding countries that, here's the rate we're going to charge you on August 1st if you don't reach a deal with us. And I think, notably, a lot of those percentages are very similar back in April. So it'll be interesting to see if this idea of playing ball with the administration making a deal by August 1 means that those rates go down the same way it did in Vietnam, or if those rates that they're sort of doubling down on this week are really what we're going to see when these tariffs go into effect. Also, maybe they get delayed again. Right? Like we don't know.
- [08:43]
Dennis Scully
Well, no, exactly. And so we're pushing them off until August. For now, the market, the stock market is remarkably complacent. So the market sort of fell on the day that all of this started to come out, but then has very quickly rebounded. And in addition to all of the tariffs against specific countries, the Trump administration has now announced a 50% tariff on copper. So that's pretty surprising and not great news if you're a home builder or if, if you're using copper in any number of ways. But there, again, just before we jumped on the show, I looked at Toll Brothers, the big home builder, and they're up 3% on the day. So, I mean, again, I don't know if that is more because also, just before we came on the air, we got the minutes from the most recent Fed meeting last month, and it sounded as if many on the Federal Reserve Open Market Committee were keen to move on rates, even without the greater clarity of the inflationary impacts of the tariffs. And I think the market may be now hanging its hat on that, which any port in the storm is, I think how the market's feeling. But it's really interesting how all of this is playing out. I think a lot of people thought the tariffs were really going away. It doesn't look like they are. And we're back with a lot of uncertainty.
- [10:07]
Kaitlyn Peterson
I think it's also worth noting those copper tariffs come on the heels of tariffs on steel and aluminum, other materials. The process to get to that tariff has been, you know, an inquiry by the Trump administration taking kind of a broad survey of what imports and what use look like in the U.S. similar inquiries are in progress for pharmaceuticals and semiconductors, but also notably for us in the home industry, lumber. So not to be a total storm cloud, but I think we should expect more to come just in terms of those tariffs on raw materials.
- [10:40]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, the housing industry is already facing so many, so many headwinds. The thought of lumber and copper also being an issue is really sort of hard to fathom. And again, the Wall Street Journal editorial board is voicing its displeasure about the whole thing, as they have throughout the course of this whole tariff experiment. But again, a renewed energy around all of these tariff conversations. So somebody is keen to make them happen. We'll see what sticks. But at this point, we look now towards August 1st, and perhaps we'll know more, but we've got to move on because perhaps related markups is the next topic of conversation. Boh's summer print issue debuts this week. In the first story to hit the site, our show producer, Caroline Burke explored everything you need to know about markups. Now, we're not actually talking about tariffs here. It's actually markup on product and a big part of how the interior design industry works.
- [11:44]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Yes, Caitlin, absolutely. So this is a great piece. It dives into a particularly kind of thorny industry issue. We sort of joke all the time that if you want to get people mad, talk about markups, the issue usually includes one really meaty how to article. And I think this one really delivers on that. It's this pretty comprehensive primer on how markups work and how you can use them to benefit your business. I think one of the interesting things about markups is sort of there is no one right way to do it. Right. How do you calculate it? It depends. When and where do you apply it? It depends. How do you talk about it with your clients? Up to you. And so I think Caroline has done a really wonderful job of breaking down not just here's how you do this, but saying here's a survey of how a lot of different firms look at making money on product. Here's why it matters for their businesses and avenues that you can take if you're looking to streamline the way you profit from your procurement process.
- [12:45]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I mean, I think it was interesting in reading Caroline's incredibly thorough piece that really, as you say, gets into all of these different discussions. And I think for many who might be trying to think about changes that they should be making, it was interesting to hear the certainty from some of the designers that were referenced. Well, if you're only charging markups, then you don't really have a business. But also if you're only charging hourly, then you're just trading money for time. And people really sounded very clear headed about all of their different positions. But I think, as Kevin Isbell pointed out in the article, you ask 100 designers and you get a hundred different answers about the whole thing, which often is one of the challenges about our industry in general and what we worry about when we think about people wanting to work with interior designers and they get all of these different answers or they get all of these different models. I remember you and I had a conversation ages ago when you were thinking you were going to get all these answers from designers, right? And you were going to come up with the perfect, here's how you need to do it. And you discover it depends on so many different variables, right?
- [13:57]
Kaitlyn Peterson
I think actually the story you're referencing, it was going to be an article on how to charge. So, like, ambitious much? I don't know. I think I walked away with a really clear perspective on this. Really guided, I think the way BOH approaches issues like this since that time, which is we're not going to give you one answer, but we're going to say if you can find what feels comfortable to you, if you can find an idea that you can hold onto and confidently talk about with your clients, that's the right path. I think I've come around to the idea that an industry standard wouldn't actually serve the design industry as much as we think it would, and that our superpower is that we get to tailor these incredibly bespoke businesses to the strengths and weaknesses of the firm and of their founder. And so you know what I hope actually that this article delivers is a moment for every person who reads it where they say, that's how I do it. And I still think this is the most legit of the options presented here. Great. Don't change anything. But if you read something and you say, oh, I don't do it that way, but that sounds awesome, that's what I hope actually happens when someone reads this article is they see something or hear something that either reaffirms what they're doing or encourages them to try a new model that maybe helps them make more money.
- [15:13]
Dennis Scully
You can certainly imagine designers reading this piece and either learning a different way of doing it or causing them to rethink what they're doing. Currently hearing every designer who spoke in this piece seemed so certain of themselves and of their position when often, I think, in the early stages of your business, particularly you're not Certain, you experiment. And you. And I have spoken to so many designers. I have spoken to so many designers who said, oh, my gosh, I used to charge like this.
- [15:47]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Or I've tried everything. Right?
- [15:50]
Dennis Scully
Yes. Or I've redone it multiple times. And some designers say to me, of course, it's a little bit of everything. This project I do by time, because I know that person is going to take forever. Right. And so I want to make sure that I'm getting plenty of hourly charges going there. But other projects, I know exactly how much this is going to cost. And I'm happy to say here's your fee for this whole thing. And I think it really just depends. But I think the really smart firms that I speak to are incredible data gatherers.
- [16:20]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Yes.
- [16:21]
Dennis Scully
And they have so much information that is informing their decision of how they're charging and how they think about charging, because this discussion around making sure you really have a margin and that whole notion of not just trading money for time and all of that, but really having a business that makes a meaningful profit regardless of how you end up charging.
- [16:47]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Totally. I think another thing that you talk about how in the beginning, nobody's really confident saying, oh, and also there's an extra 35% on product. Like, you know, I think one of the funny things that I really appreciated in this article was just how many people basically said, yes, I have a markup, but you're never going to hear me say the word markup. You know, whether they're calling that a purchasing fee or a procurement fee or a commission. And how they're really, when they talk to their clients, tethering the value of those dollars to all of the work that goes into getting a product, you know, from a purchase order into your house. I thought that was actually a really interesting takeaway as well, is that, you know, we have this thing called markups that when we talk about it, sort of makes everybody either angry or uncomfortable. But maybe one of the secrets is just not to use the word markup anymore.
- [17:36]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. The whole conversation around language is really interesting to me as well, and how designers think about it, what they say, what they won't say, how they want to characterize it. And again, I think you read this piece and there is a lot to learn for everyone before we move on, Caitlin, there's a lot of other features in the magazine as well, and I wanted you to just talk quickly about them to tell listeners what else they might find in the new issue.
- [18:04]
Kaitlyn Peterson
We're doing something a little bit different for boh Magazine, this issue, we're actually publishing four projects. There have been so many industry conversations about photography, right? Like how we capture projects is changing. The fact that designers pay to capture those projects is certainly changing. And I kept talking to designers who knew that their photography, the photography they were commissioning, mattered more than ever. But when they looked at who to hire for those jobs, you can look at somebody's portfolio and say, okay, what of this picture is incredible design work? What of this picture is very successful styling? And what of this picture is great photography? And who the heck am I supposed to hire to create something like this? And I think what I really wanted to do with this issue was kind of unbundle that, to break apart these amazing images that we're publishing in the magazine and to talk to the designer about what that shoot day was like, but also to the stylist and the photographer who were just as essential in creating those final images that are going to really help a firm get noticed, get the next project and have something lasting that showcases what they achieved.
- [19:15]
Dennis Scully
Such an important subject. And we talk about it so often, and all the magazine edits, editors that we talk to just stress the importance of photography and the value of stylists and good photographers and all of that. So I'm really excited that you've gotten into all of that in the magazine, and I look forward to reading it. Moving on, we're going to talk about a new designer podcast. Caitlin. Another podcast not allowed.
- [19:40]
Kaitlyn Peterson
This week, BOH managing editor Hayley Chouinard wrote about why designer Lindsay Olsen is putting her clients in the hot seat on her new podcast, which is called Interior Design Diaries. Dennis, we both listened to the show. What'd you think?
- [19:53]
Dennis Scully
Well, Caitlin, I always get pretty worked up when another podcast comes into the home scene, and I feel, Wait, what? And I'm a little bit jealous because this is a conversation that we've talked about wanting to have is talking to some end users, some homeowners, about what the whole design experience was like. This designer talks to some of her clients and gets into the whole experience. It's interesting. What did you think?
- [20:23]
Kaitlyn Peterson
I thought it was really fun. You know, I listened to a couple episodes where she was really breaking down how the client felt throughout the process. And, you know, just to zoom out for a second, Lindsey Olson, she's a designer based in Newport Beach, California. Her company is Lulu Designs. She's been in business for more than two decades. And I think, you know, the article kind of explained that she realized that the images in her portfolio sort of going Back to those, you know, the importance of those images. But also the language on her website wasn't really communicating what it was like to do business with her firm or to have her kind of holding your hand, guiding you through the design process. And so that's where this podcast came from. It's basically, I think she launched in February. She's put out 13 episodes so far, and they are living, breathing testimonials, basically, from her clients about how they felt seen, supported, and how they feel grateful for her presence, shepherding them through the design process. It's a really interesting way to get someone to enthuse about your business.
- [21:27]
Dennis Scully
Well, that's what I'm wondering. So you think this is a marketing effort on her part? This is better than the Google review or something that might appear somewhere. This is. This is really getting to hear from the client and the experience they had because it seemed like she was pretty chummy with these clients when I was listening to the episodes. Right. Things seems like they become thick as thieves during the process, which isn't always the case, as we know.
- [21:56]
Kaitlyn Peterson
That's true. There's a great episode where she's talking to this client. They had done a kitchen renovation together, and I think the client sort of like, was her own gc, sort of. And there's a moment where Lindsay asks, how did that go for you? And the client goes, not great. That's why when we did our bathroom renovation, we hired you to do all of it. And it was. That, to me, was a really powerful moment of saying, you know, here's somebody. Here's a client who went on a journey of realizing just how much that designer could do for them and could support them. And then they doubled down when they had another project and haven't looked back. You know, I think the moments like that have to be really reassuring if you're a potential client listening and kind of wondering what this experience is going to be like for you.
- [22:37]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. And I wonder if end users will tune into the show who might have been on the fence. I mean, I wonder if it's something that. Well, listen, if you're thinking about working with me here, why don't I send you some episodes of this show and you can hear from some clients. I mean, that's a really interesting way to build that out and better than just sort of calling somebody out of the blue. Hi, tell me what you thought about.
- [23:00]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Totally. Totally. I mean, by the way, as a marketing initiative, if that's what this is, it's not inexpensive. She hired a production crew. She's got editors. You know, there's a team creative. You know, this isn't just like, oh, I hopped on GarageBand and made this thing myself. You know, she's absolutely investing in the production here.
- [23:17]
Dennis Scully
No, that's the part I didn't like. That's the part I didn't like. She's got this whole crew and team and everything, and it makes it sound like it's coming for me.
- [23:24]
Kaitlyn Peterson
And I don't know. I don't think this show is coming for you.
- [23:27]
Dennis Scully
All right.
- [23:28]
Kaitlyn Peterson
No, I don't. But I do think that there's. And I actually don't know that this would work for everybody, but I think that if you've got, you know, if your relationship with your client is one of the main selling points in the value that you're delivering in your business, this is a really interesting maybe spark for an idea of a way that you can communicate that to your clients and your potential clients.
- [23:48]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting coming at a time when we're hearing so much about how SEO is not working in the same way it once was. Right. Because of AI and other factors as well, and algorithmic changes. But. So here's another way to sort of put the word out and attract some listeners again, hopefully not too many listeners, I hope, but enough to possibly win over as clients. It's very interesting and we'll have to keep an eye on it and see how it does. And I'd love to hear from people what they think once they get a chance to listen to it. Finally, we have to move on to some sad news. Longtime design industry veteran Janice Langral passed away last month at the age of 71. Janice kicked off her career as marketing director for institutions like Interior Design Magazine and Schumacher before establishing her own namesake marketing and PR firm in 2008. In 2013, she teamed up with Carolyn Solis to form Langral and Solis. Along the way, Janis also spent many years serving as a member of industry organizations like like the Decorators Club, Diffa and the Alpha Workshops. Her passing was met with an outpouring of grief from the design community, encapsulated by a message from Carolyn. Janice touched everyone she met with her keen intelligence, quick wit, and endless generosity. She was a quiet force and a true professional. She will be missed. Very, very sad. Longtime friend of the lovely Mrs. Scully's, Mrs. Scully and and Janice actually worked together at Interior Design magazine back in the day. And I've known Janice for decades. Smart, funny, great writer and I know you've had some interactions with her as well. Caitlin.
- [25:40]
Kaitlyn Peterson
She's a wonderful woman. I think, you know, it was always a delight to work with her and I will absolutely miss her at industry events and on the phone and in my inbox.
- [25:50]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, she was a remarkable woman and will indeed be missed. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a roundup of the industry's newest hires and tips for fostering employee growth. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break to tell you a little bit more about June Lalor. As a sister brand to Lalloy, June laloyloy maintains the same design acumen, high standards of quality and value, offering furniture, rugs, lighting and decor. For today's home, the June laloy trade program is designed to make doing business a breeze, offering exclusive benefits to designers that include special pricing priority, customer support and a seamless sourcing experience. Visit junelaloy.com today to explore the collection and sign up for a trade account. That's J-O-O-N L O L-O I.com and now back to the show. And we're back. I'm joined now by Bernie de la Cogna, the founder of the luxury textile brand that bears her name. Bernie, so lovely to see you.
- [27:13]
Bernie Delicona
Hi, Dennis. Good to see you.
- [27:15]
Dennis Scully
I'm eager to jump into a big move that you've made recently, but before we do that, let's tell people a little bit about your business that you've built over the years, what it's all about and what it's come to represent in our industry.
- [27:31]
Bernie Delicona
Well, I've actually been working to grow this business for the last 30 years. Would you believe? Does make me feel super old. But I started and I really didn't know what I was doing. I'd studied architectural design in South Africa. I knew nothing about weaving, but wanted to create something beautiful, of high quality. No business plan, just me at home with a kind of crazy idea and a fax machine.
- [28:02]
Dennis Scully
Tell us how people think of you today and what is so special about the things that you offer to designers around the country and around the world?
- [28:12]
Bernie Delicona
Well, what we do, we weave premium natural fibres. So we weave everything from linen to wool to, to cashmere to. To silk. We weave them all, but I would say about 88, 90% of the collection is linen. And we weave the linen in Europe because in Europe, they have A huge long history of, you know, the artisan craft of weaving linen. So we're very, very protective of the European linen because I've just been to see the farmers actually and they are so dedicated to the craft and they are so dedicated to growing premium high end flax. And then we produce fabric by the meter which is woven, we don't print, so it's all wove. And then our warehouses are in the UK and from there we distribute all around the world.
- [29:12]
Dennis Scully
So you and I had a conversation a while back and we were somewhat bemoaning the decision of the UK to pull out. The whole Brexit moment in the UK's history was not great for a lot of businesses, particularly those that imported and exported quite a bit. Has the impact of that settled down or how are we feeling about that today?
- [29:39]
Bernie Delicona
You know, certainly from those beginning stages things have settled down, but I really don't see, except for the tariff situation, I don't see a benefit. It's been tough going and it's been difficult, particularly for the Europeans. Of course, we had to navigate this getting product out of Europe and then in our warehouse quality checked and back into Europe, which wasn't easy. We've worked that all out, but it's not easy. The benefit to us right now could be the tariff situation.
- [30:13]
Dennis Scully
Really there's a benefit to the tariff situation.
- [30:15]
Bernie Delicona
Tell me more to a degree, because in the UK at the moment, but we're not sure for how long we have a 10% tariff. Yes, Europe was given a 20% tariff and that was put on hold for a couple of months, but they were looking and they don't seem to have negotiated out of it as yet the 20% tariff. Now the fact that all our goods come from Europe means the country of origin is Europe. So we will have that 20% tariff if that's what goes ahead. But any finished goods, and you know, we do quite a lot of finished goods, that it's the country of origin then becomes the uk. So it's a minefield. But we are hoping that things progress well. But I think with the tariffs, I actually understand why President Trump would impose a tariff. If there's a trade deficit, the way to get out of it is to impose tariffs. I understand that bit. I think the difficulty is the uncertainty because we're not sure is it 10%, is it going to be more? Is it going to change? Won't it be anything? And I think that affects us, but more so our customers because there's this level of uncertainty.
- [31:33]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, no. And we should timestamp this conversation so that people. Because it's all changing so rapidly.
- [31:40]
Bernie Delicona
I know.
- [31:41]
Dennis Scully
So Bernie and I are talking the morning of July 8th, but coming back to the US and you mentioned the fact that business is strong in the US for you. But the news hook for this conversation, Bernie, is the big move that you've made that I want to hear more about leaving the D and D building and coming to the New York Design center at 200 Lex and knowing that you are a thoughtful and deliberate person. I imagine that you had thought about this for a long time. And so I want to hear your thoughts.
- [32:18]
Bernie Delicona
You know, it's been a fabulous home for us and a fabulous start for us for the last 15, 16 years. But I think the world changed during the pandemic and everything that's gone on since then. And the D and D has changed. A lot of people in the D and D said to me, it's going to turn around. Give it two or three, four years. You know, I don't want to wait two or three, four years. I strongly believe that the future is 200 Lex.
- [32:47]
Dennis Scully
The future is 200 Lex. Jim Druckmann is going to love you for that. Maybe he's going to have T shirts made. I think of that. But I wonder, what, in your words, what did you see begin to happen at the DD building? What made you finally decide, enough is enough, we've got to make this move?
- [33:08]
Bernie Delicona
You know, the building started to have a lot of empty showrooms. So on our floor there were quite a few empty showrooms, which is not conducive to business. Also the footfall, which used to be enormous when we first moved in, you couldn't get into an elevator. You know, you were always waiting. Now the footfall has dropped dramatically. I think in order to succeed as a showroom in a design center, and I've had experience of so many across America and the ones in the uk, in order to succeed, you need the support of the landlord. You really, really do. And with 200 legs, as you mentioned, Jim. Jim is giving us a lot of support. And that is fundamental to the success of a company. I think. You know, not only that, 200 legs seems thus far to be attracting a younger customer base, which is something we really need. We totally value our existing customers who've been with us for years and years and years. Of course, they're the love blood of the company, but we need the younger people and we have that opportunity. I believe in 200 legs more than the D and D well, so tell me about that.
- [34:24]
Dennis Scully
What are you doing differently? And I mean, you've built this beautiful new showroom, but tell me what you're imagining doing differently there.
- [34:31]
Bernie Delicona
Well, you know, we were lucky enough to get quite a big space, which was great on the top floor, which is right next door to the cafe, which helps a lot. I think it's a really good space. We put an awful lot in it to create an ambiance. But even more than that, what we wanted to do was not have the traditional wings, the way, you know, American decorators, designers work. I think that's great. So, of course we're honoring that and we've got some wings, but we've also got what we call headers, which are meter square pieces of fabric. And that's the way we work in Europe and in the UK because what it allows the client and the customer to do is to actually throw out these meter pieces on the very long table that we've got, pull it together with perhaps some paint colors or wood finishes, but have these big pieces on the table that they can see and visualize, and their clients can visualize exactly what things are going to look like.
- [35:31]
Dennis Scully
I wonder, do you feel. You referenced Covid earlier and often there's this perception that so much has changed or the industry has evolved quite a bit since then. Do you feel that designers are asking you for different things or working in a different way? I mean, what seems to have shifted a little bit in the way that you're servicing designers?
- [35:56]
Bernie Delicona
You know, there are quite a few things, but one thing that I've really noticed is that designers seem to have no time at all. Much more so than before the pandemic. I don't know. Why has our time become more precious? I'm not really sure. But they seem to have less and less time, which was another reason why 200 Lex was really attractive to us. Because in 200 Lex, they have everything. They don't just have furnishings and fabrics, but they have furniture, lighting, kitchens. So it gives the decorator, the designer, the opportunity to see everything in their limited time in one space.
- [36:38]
Dennis Scully
And they can have lunch at the cafe right next to your space.
- [36:42]
Bernie Delicona
I mean, and we'll make the coffee. We have good coffee. That was one of the things that changed. And the other things we used to be able to. And this goes for the UK as well. We used to be able to visit designers in their own space really easily. They wanted that. Now they would rather come and see you. Or they request cuttings. I think you call them memo Samples in the US So we send out more than double of the memo samples and cuttings than we did before the pandemic.
- [37:15]
Dennis Scully
Really?
- [37:15]
Bernie Delicona
Yeah. And I think now not only do designers have less time, but they're online. So things are done over the website, over the Internet, and you don't even see the designer. The order pops through, but you haven't even met the person. Whereas in the old days, you know exactly who you're talking to, you know what projects they're working on, and we don't have that anymore. But that is what I'm trying to encourage in 200 legs, you know, is that interaction, again, rather than looking at wings against a wall, you standing opposite somebody, and then you're able to interact with them. So that's what we're trying to encourage because I think it's harder for the designer, and it's harder for us and our products. We honestly, we work with amazing artisans who have generations of experience behind them, and the effort that is put into our products is just totally remarkable.
- [38:14]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. And you can write the most wonderful description in the world of that and put it on your website, but it's. Right. But it's nothing like coming and experiencing.
- [38:24]
Bernie Delicona
It and feeling up a piece of it, you know?
- [38:27]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. No. It seems as if it has always. There's always been this pull to try and get people to the showroom over decades. And the role that showrooms have played, or how we think about what services a showroom can potentially offer to people, have evolved over time. But the urgency still exists around seeing and touching and laying out, even seeing how it drapes or how it drops.
- [38:59]
Kaitlyn Peterson
And how it dries.
- [39:00]
Dennis Scully
Right.
- [39:00]
Bernie Delicona
Yeah, completely. It really is so important. So it's about finding how can you help customers come into the showrooms rather than just click on the website and ask for a sample. I think, you know, if you have a printed product which has a very particular design printed on it in particular colors, I think it's easier on a website. But when it's all about weave and texture and fall, you have to experience it.
- [39:31]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. But you do find that there's been an uptick. It sounds like a meaningful uptick in the online interaction with designers.
- [39:40]
Bernie Delicona
Yeah, huge. I would much rather do it face to face, but maybe that's just me. But, yes, there has been huge.
- [39:48]
Dennis Scully
So the fear was for years, if I move down to 32nd street and Lexington Avenue, those there was a certain caliber of designer that was just never coming downtown. They didn't even know where below 42nd street was in Manhattan. Right. There was that assumption. And so you thought there were certain clients that were just never gonna make that trip and where you're gonna lose them or how are you gonna tell everyone that you've moved and that you've relocated and they've gotta come find you here? Because so often you walk through the D and D building, oh, that showroom's not there. Oh, I guess they're out of business. I guess they're gone. Right. You make this terrible leap and assumption and why wouldn't you? Because often that is the case. But there are so many reasons why people have been hesitant to make the leap. And I'm sure all of those things ran through your head in thinking about this. How are you planning to address all of that is I guess what I'm wondering.
- [40:40]
Bernie Delicona
All of those things came to mind and I spoke to some of the MD CEOs of some of the big companies in the building and they said, whoa, that's super brave. Because, you know, there's a kind of comfort in all high end fabric companies being together.
- [40:56]
Dennis Scully
Yes.
- [40:57]
Bernie Delicona
And that's what was in the D and D. People are starting to move, but that's what it's been like. But I just, just got excited about the opportunity and the chance, taking a chance and just sort of going for it. Because you know, we did it in Chelsea Harbour in London and you can see how that design center really, really works. And I think it's going to be like that in 200 lakes in the not too distant future. You know, there are quite a few fabric houses, high end fabric houses in Jim's building now. So I think that's the way it's going to go. But of course I consulted everybody. Some of them said, well, I've got a seven year lease and sure, and all those sort of things. But it's a scary thing. It really is a scary thing. But it's super exciting. As I was signing the checks, maybe I wasn't feeling so happy, but right now I'm completely delighted. I've got a great team in the us you know that I'm there all the time, but I've still got a really good team and I'm super, super grateful and lucky about that. But I think it's going work, I really do. I mean, the first full month we've had has been a fantastic month.
- [42:09]
Dennis Scully
In terms of orders, in terms of.
- [42:10]
Bernie Delicona
Traffic, I mean in terms of orders, traffic is good, but in terms of orders, I think traffic will continue to build as well. But in terms of orders it's been a great month. So onwards and upwards.
- [42:23]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, in a way. And listen, listen. The summer in any design center is always a little bit of a scary time because. Because you often see the traffic drop dramatically and you start to panic. And then September rolls around and it comes right back. So you can't really think too hard about July and August. But it's interesting for all of the distractions, the tariffs and everything else that's going on, business, particularly the high end, still seems as if it's pretty steady and strong. Is that your sense of.
- [42:55]
Bernie Delicona
It is. I must say that people feel a little unsettled, but we are not seeing it in the numbers at the moment. But I do know that people are a little unsure. You know, when the tariff thing happened, obviously the first thing I did was to look and see whether we could weave the fabric in America if it became necessary. Because if, for example, we were to get a 50% tariff or something, that would be tricky. So I did. But what the mills in America do is extraordinary and fabulous, but they don't have the sort of history that we have and that we can harness in Europe. So it would be difficult for us to reproduce the product in the US So I'm really hoping if we have a small tariff, I think we can all live with it.
- [43:47]
Dennis Scully
Well, and when you say live with it, do you imagine eating some of that price increase yourself and seeing if you can absorb it within your own margins rather than raising prices? Because there's this sense that maybe people are tired of price increases and more companies are trying to be mindful of that.
- [44:08]
Bernie Delicona
Well, I tell you what, as soon as the tariff was introduced, people were really quick. I mean, some people noticed, put a separate line on the invoice, 10% tariff or 20% tariff, and they immediately, immediately pass that tariff on to the American customers. Some people increased their prices. We decided we would hold for a three month period and just see how the land was lying then and how things settled. And we have not added that 10% tariff on. We did absorb it. And after three months I thought, oof, this is really hurting. So we put a small amount on. Nothing like 10%, but a very small increase in the price. So I think at this stage we certainly are taking more than half our share of the cost of the tariff. But, you know, we'll have to see what happens because of course we have to be a business, we've got to run it. But I would, I would hate to put 10% or 20% or whatever it is on top of the costs, we have to find a way to support our customers, you know, and we're going to be really transparent with our customers and tell them what's going on.
- [45:22]
Dennis Scully
As time moves on, I'm wondering, Bernie. So the big move to the New York Design center is the big New York story. And I'm imagining that New York remains the biggest market for you in the us you can tell me, but I wonder how you're thinking about the rest of the country and where else is doing particularly well for you and if we can learn anything about other parts of the country that are doing well during this somewhat confusing time.
- [45:54]
Bernie Delicona
You know, we've got 14 showrooms across the US and as you know, partners in big showrooms. Los Angeles is very good for us. They always do extremely well. And we're with Thomas Lavin there and he's wonderful. We recently hosted him and his guests in Windsor and we've also got in Laguna who do well for us. That's also Thomas Levin. But we've got other parts of the country like Boston, Atlanta, you know, these, these cities are also doing really well. It's only, I would say the smaller ones that are finding a little more difficult at the moment. And also we are a very specific product.
- [46:40]
Dennis Scully
Yes.
- [46:41]
Bernie Delicona
You know, but Touchwood, we have really good representation across the US and you know, now with the New York showroom, it' got to be onwards and upwards. And of course we've got what's new. What's next is coming, Jim?
- [46:55]
Dennis Scully
That's right, the big event. The big back to school event for the industry in September.
- [46:59]
Bernie Delicona
Absolutely. We're really looking forward to that. So I'll come from doing the event in London, in Chelsea Harbour, straight to what's new, what's next, what's going to be an exciting time.
- [47:09]
Dennis Scully
That is very exciting. What are you doing in Chelsea Harbour? What are you doing in the London big design centre?
- [47:13]
Bernie Delicona
It's called Focus.
- [47:15]
Dennis Scully
Sure. Okay.
- [47:15]
Bernie Delicona
And they have so many events in Chelsea Harbour, but it is over a period of a week. So there's loads of panels. Actually, I think you and I were on a panel once. I think we weren't we one of the Focus thing. So, you know, they do loads of panels in showrooms and also in the, in the big amphitheater type places that they've got. They do lots of dinners, lots of events. So that's happening there. And then what's new? What's next in September? I'm really looking forward to it because I've never been. I've Never seen it.
- [47:51]
Dennis Scully
Oh, I've never experienced it in person. Okay, well, have you? I have for many years. And it is a crowded event, so brace yourself.
- [48:00]
Bernie Delicona
I'm looking forward to it. So we have lots of plans in the pipeline for this event.
- [48:05]
Dennis Scully
Well, and again, that's what I'm curious about. Bernie, when you think about all of the things that you have to do to let people know that you've made this big move to get the most out of having this showroom, I'm always curious. Does one think about it as partially as an event space? Does one think about it as a place where you're doing other things to get people there and create excitement? Because again, you both have to let people know you've moved. Plus you have to remind people all the time that one has a showroom. People are so distracted today. You just have to try and capture their attention. And I wonder how you think about that.
- [48:48]
Bernie Delicona
You know, I think that's got to be marketing. So it has to be, you know, we have to continue to market it, but I think it's a big space so we could have events. When we first started in the D and D, we used to cater dinners in the showroom and they were fabulous. We had, you know, designers and we had press at the dinners and they were really successful. So that's on the cards. But we do have some interesting events coming forwards. What's next? I can't tell you what they are right now. I do know, but we're working on them. So they're going to be super exciting and we'll have them all day. Actually, we're not just doing a slot. It's going to be an all day thing, really.
- [49:31]
Dennis Scully
Okay. So there'll be lots of different activities. Okay. So mark your calendars for September 18th at Bernie's new showroom at 200 Lex. Bernie, thank you so much for making the time. It's such a pleasure to get to, to speak with you.
- [49:44]
Bernie Delicona
It's been great. Dennis, thanks very much and see you at 200 Lex.
- [49:53]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that caught our eye. Caitlyn, what caught your eye?
- [50:02]
Kaitlyn Peterson
An acquisition in the kitchen and bath world caught my eye, Dennis.
- [50:06]
Dennis Scully
Okay.
- [50:06]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Emerald holding, which is the company that produces cake. Kbis, the kitchen and bath industry show, announced on Wednesday that it acquired Kitchen and Bath Canada Expo, which takes place every November in Toronto. According to the team at Emerald this partnership is going to bring the NKBA's programming to our neighbors up north and create new opportunities for Canadian design professionals to learn and grow. The NKBA has been expansionary of late. They've entered into that partnership with High Point Market Market Authority and it'll be popping up at Fall Market. They sponsored House Beautiful's Next Wave program this year. They seem just really active in getting out into the design community, getting in front of designers and really kind of showcasing their programs and kind of learning opportunities. And so, you know, now they're going to be headed to Canada. And I think it'll just be interesting to see how this acquisition sort of fits into those big plans.
- [51:01]
Dennis Scully
I agree. I look forward to hearing more. As you say, the NKBA just, they've.
- [51:05]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Been on the move, on a roll.
- [51:07]
Dennis Scully
They are, they are feeling expansive. No question about that.
- [51:10]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Dennis, what caught your eye this week?
- [51:12]
Dennis Scully
Well, the. The latest issue of the Current, the in house magazine from Urban Electric arrived at my door with some fanfare in a big beautiful box. There. There might have been a trumpeter who played at the door. When the beautiful box arrived. It was tied with a beautiful sash and trim and inside hundreds of pages long is this really incredible publication. Kudos to Dave Dawson and the incredible marketing team there that puts this out. But you know, we often talk, Caitlin, and we were talking to Scott Hudson just recently from henrybilts about how he decided to scale back on a lot of his marketing efforts and instead focus on a publication that he hopes was speaking to some of his potential users. The Current is. It's a design magazine, it's a travel magazine, but it's also, as you and I were talking about before we came.
- [52:11]
Kaitlyn Peterson
On air, it's a visual feast.
- [52:13]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. It's a cornucopia. And it is so beautifully executed. Executed and, and is on just such an incredibly high level that it makes you just think if this is how they put together their in house magazine, just imagine what those light fixtures must really be like. I dream myself, you know, about those.
- [52:36]
Kaitlyn Peterson
But as a paper nerd, as a print magazine nerd, the things that they are doing are so inventive and also so expensive.
- [52:44]
Dennis Scully
Absolutely.
- [52:44]
Kaitlyn Peterson
Paper styles, the paper variety, there are.
- [52:47]
Dennis Scully
Blow in inserts, there are magazines within magazines.
- [52:51]
Kaitlyn Peterson
It comes with a custom box.
- [52:53]
Dennis Scully
Yes.
- [52:54]
Kaitlyn Peterson
No. The investment and the execution are both pretty staggering. It's also big. It keeps growing. We used to chart the health of the industry right. By how big the RH Sourcebook was. And maybe it's supposed to. Maybe the Current is the new source.
- [53:08]
Dennis Scully
Book yeah, no, no, it arrives in.
- [53:10]
Kaitlyn Peterson
The mail and you, like, put it on the, put it on the kitchen scale.
- [53:13]
Dennis Scully
It's, it's funny because it's one of those companies, when I talk to designers, it's. It's one of the top companies that comes up when, when they point to people who are. Seem to be doing it right from sort of every perspective. And, you know, we talk about marketing. They don't, they don't do a lot of marketing beyond this. And, and so it's, it's interesting. We might have to have Dave Dawson back to talk about all this, but it's quite impressive. And designers, if you don't have your own copy, go on that site and request a copy because it is, it is an impressive presentation. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com. if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this show was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Carol Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.