The Thursday Show: Billy Cotton on his latest collaboration. Plus: The rise of the Togo sofa

Summary

Business of Home Podcast

The Thursday Show: Billy Cotton on His Latest Collaboration. Plus: The Rise of the Togo Sofa

Hosted by Dennis Scully with Caitlin Peterson

Date: November 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Business of Home Podcast covers a variety of timely topics for the design community. Host Dennis Scully and editor-in-chief Caitlin Peterson discuss the design industry’s economic slowdown, evolving housing market trends, the overdue importance of accessible design, and the cult of the Togo sofa. Later, designer Billy Cotton joins to unpack the unprecedented reach of his recent projects, his new architectural partnership, and his much-anticipated product collaboration with Soane. The show weaves industry insight, personal experience, and candid debate, with a mix of data, humor, and honest takes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Weathering a Slowdown in the Design Industry

(Start: 06:20)

• Industry Concerns:

  • Designers are increasingly worried about a slowdown, with many asking, “How do I build my pipeline? How do I let people know I’m open for work without sounding desperate?”
  • 75% of recent listener questions revolved around pipeline dryness and business generation.

• Advice from Business Coaches:

  • Cash Reserves: “You should have a cash reserve, right? ... Sandra Funk said, Look, 18 months in reserve is actually really the dream.” (B, 08:07)
  • Stay Focused on Ideal Clients: Rather than lowering fees or chasing unsuitable clients, coaches suggest, “Keep that ideal client that you’ve carved out for yourself and just look at ways to serve them differently.” (B, 08:30)
  • Tighten Operations: “Do a software audit” (B, 10:14), and use the lull to improve systems, automate tasks, and ensure profitability.

• Adopting New Technologies:

  • Caitlin reflected on integrating AI into her own workflow: “Turns out it has a really big learning curve... Slowdown is a really great time to play with something like that.” (B, 11:09)

2. The Housing Market Stalls—Implications for Design

(Start: 12:52)

• Current State: Despite mortgage rate cuts to the lowest since 2022, the housing market is “stalled,” impacting client confidence.
• First-Time Buyer Shift: “The median age of the first time homebuyer... [has] risen to a record high of now 40 years of age versus 29 when they first started tracking.” (A, 13:50)
  • Implication: This delays furnishings and renovation spending.
• Cancellations & Adjustable Rate Mortgages: “15% of home purchases were canceled in the month of September...” and increasing use of adjustable rate mortgages harken back to the ’08 crisis. (A, 14:28)

3. Accessible & Aging-in-Place Design

(Start: 20:51)

• Industry Neglect: While “75% of adults who are 50 or older want to stay in their current home as they age,” fewer than 4% of homes have basic features for it. (A, 21:42; B, 22:08)
• Designer Challenge & Opportunity:
  • There’s little attractive, non-“hospital” feeling product on the market. “I feel like I’m not getting pitched on sexy grab bars and easier to get out of bathtubs.” (A, 22:25)
  • Thoughtful product selection—not just specialty products—can make homes accessible.
• Personal Stories: Designers and clients often face these issues with their own families, begging for better-designed, uplifting solutions.

4. The Enduring (and Polarizing) Allure of the Togo Sofa

(Start: 25:16)

• Togo Sofa Love: The Togo is celebrated for its versatility and comfort; some designers, like Summer Thornton, rave about it as “just such a classic design.” (A, 26:22)
• Polarized Opinion: Caitlin admits, “That blows my mind. I hate this sofa, but wow.” (B, 25:52) She explored internet forums (Reddit and TikTok) and found kindred spirits.
  • Comfort and breaking free from mid-century modern are cited as pluses, but others find it impractical.
• Social Function & Accessibility: The Togo’s extreme low profile is noted as problematic for anyone with mobility issues, tying back to accessibility.
• Trend Questions: Even the latest “It sofas” have an expiration date as overexposure wears on designers and clients alike.

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Featured Interview: Billy Cotton

Introduction & Viral Success

(Start: 34:06)

• Viral AD House Tour: Lily Allen & David Harbour’s townhouse, designed by Billy, became a sensation with 8.5M+ video views and a shout-out in Allen’s album.
• Billy’s Reaction:
  "I'm super proud of the work we did together... Wild that it continues to resonate... I was sort of [surprised] with everybody in the universe as this all happened." (C, 34:47, 35:16)
• Impact:
  • Exposure to a global audience has driven dialogue about craftsmanship and the value of unique, less-commercial design. “People were engaging in a dialogue about design... and seeing craftsmanship.” (C, 36:32)

Rising Costs & Industry Shifts

(Start: 38:10)

• Cost Increases: Construction costs up ~30% since COVID.
• Challenge: “We do not have this type of [skilled trades] education and apprenticeship ... it has made the matrix of how we produce things of quality ... a greater challenge.” (C, 39:08)
• Designer’s Role: Designers must be upfront with clients, constantly recalibrating costs and expectations.

New Ventures: CTK & Collaborative Practice

(Start: 41:54)

• CTK: Billy co-founded architecture and project management firm CTK with Ilya Korolev and Jorg Chun.
  • Intent: “To create a standalone company that can work in concert with Billy Cotton but that also is... architecture in its own right.” (C, 44:05)
  • Not Always Intertwined: The firms sometimes operate separately or together for flexibility.
  • Advice for Designers:
    • “Depends on your bandwidth for, for challenge...” (C, 45:29)
    • Managing two firms is “complex,” but enhances collaboration and project intelligence.

Signature Style? Or Not

(Start: 56:25)

• Multiplicity Over Signature:
  • “I do not shy away from all of these different facets of the world of design and decoration ... the things that I like to design are ... quiet ... there’s a great depth, and often you have to look closer.” (C, 52:49, 56:48)
  • Clients rarely want a repeat—sometimes they don’t even like his previous work but seek his mind and process.

New Product Collaboration with Soane

(Start: 47:07, 50:08)

• Collaboration Excitement:
  • Billy views Soane as “the Everest” of craftsmanship.
  • “There’s no limits on your dream ... you just don’t have the same limitations” in the collaboration as compared to mass retail. (C, 50:34)
• Process & Philosophy: Billy and Soane’s team pursued “an open runway of what could happen from a design standpoint.”
• Level of Craft: Details like a chair’s frame made entirely of hand-stitched leather (“the queen’s ex-saddler, like stitching these leather pieces”) are emphasized as evidence of ultra-high-level craft. (C, 52:49)
• Personal Fulfillment:
  • “The things that I've always wanted to make are actually relatively quiet... the things that I like to design are [quiet].” (C, 52:49)
  • “I want to have a longer conversation. I want to have a deeper dialogue.” (C, 56:48)

On AI & Design Homogenization

(Start: 60:20)

• Homogenous Trends:
  • “It’s so interesting ... how much of the work today seems to be narrowing and looking so similar. Right. And whether that’s the algorithms or whether it’s that we’re all seeing those same pieces...” (A, 60:25)
• Billy’s Take:
  • “We are always going to be in a place of creative challenge and thinking about how we evolve. So it’s… more like, okay, that exists, so now this is a sort of new... reality and how do we work within that framework?” (C, 61:07)

Giving Back & The Next Generation

(End: 63:26)

• Billy’s passionate about education and mentorship:
  • “It’s really one of my big passions and I hope that the more that I develop in this business, I’m able to give back back in that world.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Caitlin on clear-sighted business advice:

  “Resist the impulse to chase work that hasn’t up to this point been right for you.” (B, 08:30)

• On viral exposure:

  "It was a different scale of reaction and engagement about it, which I thought was so wonderful that people were engaging in a dialogue about design..." (C, 36:32)

• Billy on artisan/craft education and cost:

  “Apprenticeship has moved into a very specialty category into, what we would say is like a luxury thing. ... It has made the matrix of how we produce things of quality... a greater challenge.” (C, 39:08)

• Billy on “signature look”:

  “We've long left. That has been left behind. But I do hope that that is the signature ... requiring the second look.” (C, 57:47)

• On product design freedom with Soane:

  “There’s no limits on your dream, like when you are working for a more a company that is servicing millions of people and working on a retail level. ... [It’s] just a really open runway of what could happen from a design standpoint.” (C, 50:34)

• Togo sofa as pandemic icon:

  “I feel like the Togo is actually very designed to have you like slouch into it on your own and curve your spine so that you're looking at your phone. And I wonder if that is what makes it the perfect pandemic [sofa].” (B, 29:28)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 06:20 – How designers are coping with a slow pipeline/mindful business practices
• 12:52 – Housing market stall & impacts on design
• 20:51 – Accessible design and aging in place: urgent yet overlooked opportunity
• 25:16 – The Togo sofa debate: popularity, critique, and what’s next
• 34:06 – Interview with Billy Cotton: viral AD tour, exposure, and professional evolution
• 38:10 – Construction costs, craftsmanship, and designer-client budgeting
• 41:54 – Formation and philosophy of CTK architecture/project firm
• 47:07 – Product design with Soane: freedom, craftsmanship, and joy
• 56:25 – Billy’s philosophy: multiplicity over signature, embracing depth and complexity
• 60:20 – Design homogenization, AI, and nurturing future talent

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Final Thoughts—Industry Items of Note

• Caitlin is collecting candid designer opinions on manufacturer relationships for a major industry presentation.
• Dennis is watching First Dibs’ markets and the Supreme Court’s review of Trump-era tariffs, which may affect costs for the whole industry.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode blends practical advice for designers navigating headwinds, a lively look at “It sofas” in design culture, and Billy Cotton’s compelling perspective on adapting, collaborating, and staying true to nuanced, craft-driven creativity. Through it all, the importance of adaptability, continual learning (from AI to artisan craft), and valuing both quiet and bold design contributions shine through.

For designers, the recurring messages are:

• Stay true to your business’s identity—don’t lower standards out of fear.
• Now is the time to refine your processes, whether with technology or more meaningful client conversations.
• There’s business—and joy—waiting in addressing accessibility with both innovation and compassion.
• Great design, whether in a viral video or a bespoke chair, comes from engaged collaboration and continuous reinvention, even (or especially) when it bucks the trends.

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“The things that I've always wanted to make are actually relatively quiet... the things that I like to design are [quiet].”
—Billy Cotton, 52:49

Transcript

[A]

This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with designer Billy Cotton about his latest collaboration. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including the latest on housing, how to get hired in a slowdown, and our designers finally paying attention to accessibility. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's editor in chief, Caitlin Peterson. Hi, Caitlin.

[B]

Hi, Dennis. How you doing?

[A]

Great. It's so nice to have you here. Thanks for stepping in. Appreciate it.

[B]

We've got Fred away at Madrid for the Design Leadership Network Summit, and I am honored to slide in and take his place this week.

[A]

Well, they're big shoes to fill, but we know that no one is more capable than you. Fred is in Madrid, as you say, no doubt listening to the show. So we send Fred our best, and we. We hope he's suffering through day after day in Madrid. It's a rough assignment, but someone had to do it, so I hope he's having a good time.

[B]

Well, Dennis, you and I are going to be hitting the road next week as well. You're off to Chicago. What are you up to there?

[A]

That's right. I'm going to be visiting with Visual Comfort Thursday morning. Come on by their space if you're in town and say hello. We're going to be talking about, you guessed it, lighting. What's coming up for you?

[B]

I'm going to be heading to the Shade store next week in New Orleans, so I'm going to be moderating a panel with three designers about how to talk about your creative process and how to pitch your business in today's economic climate.

[A]

Okay, well, that sounds fun.

[B]

Also spanning the globe is your podcast guest this week, Mark Fung from Marcor. The scope and scale of his business and the way he really described how his family has built that business over the decades. I've known Mark for quite a while and thought I knew his story, and it absolutely took me by surprise. It was a great interview.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I appreciate that very much. It was a great conversation. I've been wanting to talk to Mark for a while and share, as you say, the fascinating story of his father, who very much an interior designer himself and an artist and someone who started an export business in the most landlocked city in all of China. So that was no small feat. And then Mark himself coming to the States at the young age of 14, not speaking very much English and yet rising to become the CEO of the company. So a lot of interesting stories and as you know, Mark likes to talk AI as well. So there's quite a bit on his new product that he's developed for applying artificial intelligence to the design industry.

[B]

My favorite part might have been when you asked him, you know, oh, Mark, is there a chance that we get to this point in the future where AI can do all of these different things for us? And he goes, well, I think we're there already. We're doing it already. And it was such a stop you in your tracks reminder of just how fast this technology is moving, just how fast it's going to change the way all of us work. And I really appreciate you asking that question on behalf of all of us listening just so that we could be sort of taken completely by surprise.

[A]

Well, it was sweet. Just before coming on air, I got a note from a listener who just said, actually, thank you for making me feel a little bit more comfortable about AI. Hearing that conversation, I felt a little more optimistic and hopeful. I never know really how to land on the whole AI conversation. Hopeful, scared, all of that. But Mark made clear the many ways that one can use the technology and we'll see if the rest of the industry embraces it.

[B]

I mean, your conversation made me feel hopeful. I think it was both clarifying, certainly, and I think Mark has done a really good job of charting a course for kind of where. Where the opportunity is. I love that he said that. You know, we're already in the industry, so we know what problems to solve, we know what questions to be asking. And I think leaning into those strengths, that just feels like the right path for so many others in the industry to take as well.

[A]

Well, and also interesting for him to have the perspective of several different very large furniture companies and also working with some of the major retailers in just having a broad perspective of where things are going. And so there's a lot in the conversation and a lot that he takes in. So it's a good conversation. I hope people enjoy it. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Eicholz, the European luxury designer brand with globally inspired appeal. Discover their whole home offerings in furniture, lighting, accessories and outdoor. Eicholts makes it easy to create timeless interiors with in stock pieces shipping in one to two weeks from their North Carolina warehouse. And a customizable upholstery program delivering us made bespoke pieces in just four to six weeks. Explore new introductions, unlock competitive trade benefits, and find your local [e-mail] that's E I C H-O-L-T Z.com this podcast is sponsored by Renewal by Andersen. Hey, designers, here's a quick tip before we dive in. If you're juggling client projects that include replacing windows and doors, you need to know about Renewal by Andersen's interior designer loyalty program. It's a game changer. They take care of the window and door replacement side so you don't have to. You'll get trade discounts, exclusive rewards, and a team that truly knows what they're doing. Enjoy having a trusted expert who makes your projects run smoother. Apply today at renewalbyandersondesigner.com Terms and conditions apply. And we're back. First up, weathering a slowdown. Kaitlyn.

[B]

That's right. This week, boh's managing editor, Hayley Chouinard, spoke to interior design business coaches about what designers can do to protect their firms from a shaky economy. There's so much conversation about the economy these days. It was time, I guess, to take a look at how. How that ripple effect is kind of coming for the design industry.

[A]

So is that what led to you assigning this story to be. To be written? Was there. Were you getting a lot of feedback that people were concerned?

[B]

Yeah, you know, I think it's. It's been a conversation, it's been a talking point for the last couple months, especially. You call a designer to talk about something else and they sort of casually mention, you know, business is really slow, or, I'm busy now, but I don't have the next job. And, you know, I think you start to hear that enough that you take note and you start to think, you know, well, is this happening everywhere? What does this mean for the firms that are weathering this? What does this mean for the industry as a whole? And then, funny enough, a couple weeks ago, I sort of submitted a request for questions for Ask us Anything. And, you know, we got a lot of great questions from designers in, but I would say about three quarters of them were some version of, I have no jobs. How do I build my pipeline? How do I let people know that I'm open for work without sounding desperate? It was all variations on this idea that the next job isn't there. And so we really thought, you know, here at Business of Home, we can't really create the next job for you, but. But maybe we could offer some insights on what it means to, you know, strengthen your business so that you can at least ride out maybe a pretty slow or lean period for new work.

[A]

So, as we said, at the top. Hayley spoke to several different business coaches to sort of ask some of their best advice. What was their advice?

[B]

I mean, I think there's. You can put a lot of this into two camps, right? Some of it is the stuff you wish you had done before things got slow. You know, you should have a cash reserve, right? You know, a lot of business coaches recommend three months. I've heard six months. Sandra Funk said, Look, 18 months in reserve is actually really the dream. Look, if you're coming into this slowdown without that, you can't magically manifest a pile of cash to get you through. But I think, you know, if you are in a, in a place to sack some cash away, then that's good, Great. I think the takeaway that was most interesting to me was to really resist the impulse to chase work that hasn't up to this point been right for you. That there can be an impulse to say, well, maybe I lower my fee or maybe I go after a different client because my client isn't biting. And there were a couple different approaches in the article to really say, no, no, no, keep that ideal client that you've carved out for yourself and just look at ways to serve them differently. Look at, look for ways that maybe aren't full service design, but keep your core client front and center in your business. And that surprised me. But that, I think is really powerful advice. What did you think?

[A]

Interestingly enough. So we had just had Corey Damon Jenkins on the show and funny enough, we were having a laugh about when we had last had Corey on the show. It was right at the start of COVID in that period where everybody thought business was going to be melting down. And Corey was going to come on and tell us his remarkable story of starting his business during the great financial crisis. And he was going to give us some hope and some insight. And then of course, the business took off and we didn't have to worry about that. And it is sort of funny to be talking about an article that's getting ready for a slowdown when markets are at an all time high and we hear all of the, I mean, there's so many conflicting data points that we're getting and yet so much feedback from designers, as you mentioned, about this slowing pipeline and a lot of the, a lot of the tips about just sort of even being more buttoned up about operations. Right.

[B]

Do a software audit.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And use this time to say, are we billing properly? Are we sure that we're including everything in the hourly billing? I was thinking about A recent conversation with Ralph Churchill that we had on the show where he talked about you've gotta make so certain that everybody is billing for their hours and making sure that you're projects are really profitable and that you're just no freebies. Exactly. Just so you're really disciplined about this. And that that very much came through in this piece.

[B]

It's interesting too. I mean I think you can use this slowdown as sort of a learning curve. You know, I think the coaches recommended, you know, are you using calendly already to schedule your meetings and you know, are you using software that automates your invoices? Stop sending manual follow ups for stuff like that. I just welcomed AI into my inbox.

[A]

Yes, I know, I know. How is that going?

[B]

So it turns out it has a really big learning curve. But I was thinking about that a lot as I was reading this article because I think so much of this innovation takes a little bit of time. In my case, teaching my inbox how to sort itself, how to write back to things for me, how I want it to schedule emails for me. There is an incredible savings and benefit I think at the end of the road. But it turns out I'm going to spend the next couple months teaching this thing how to do the job that I need it to do. And slowdown is a really great time to play with something like that.

[A]

It's a great time to, as you say, to learn new applications and software. It's a great time to look at the kinds of projects that have been most profitable and why and also as many clients came to designers for in various other slowdowns what are some smaller things we could do together and what would that look like? So I mean again, it's impossible to know where all of this is going, but it certainly seemed as if this was great advice and things to think about whether or not a meaningful slowdown arrives or not.

[B]

Yes, totally. I mean I think we talked about this last week when we were talking about market but you can ask 10 different people and you can get 10 different temperatures on the economy, on the opportunities that are out there. And I think there are just as many firms who say oh no, like we've never been busier but I think in certain pockets of the industry, you know, this is real. And hopefully the designers listening, the designers reading to this can find strength in the future by, you know, getting mindful right now.

[A]

No, absolutely. Moving on. We're going to talk about real estate which may or may not be softening. We'll see the latest Round of rate cuts brought borrowing costs to their lowest level since 2022. But for now, the housing market remains stalled, which is the big challenge in all of this.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think it actually is kind of tied part and parcel with that, that conversation about a slow pipeline. So many of the things that keep clients frozen, that keep clients nervous about embarking on a long term renovation project or design project, are a lot of the same factors, I think, that are making them more cautious about getting a mortgage and buying a home in this market. No.

[A]

Well, here it is. Caitlin and I are talking the day after election day, and I don't recall an election in the past where housing affordability was more of a campaign issue. New York just elected a mayor that.

[B]

Campaigned on the cost of land because.

[A]

He said he was gonna somehow bring housing costs down. And various governors who won around the country had a similar platform. So it is a huge issue in the country and everyone is feeling this in one way or another. What's been striking in all of these numbers that we get? And again, we always start off these conversations by saying, of course, real estate discussions depend on where you are and what part of the market we're talking about. But when we're talking about the average consumer trying to buy a home, what is striking about this period is that we continue to see the median age of the first time homebuyer rise. It's recently risen to a record high of now 40 years of age versus 29 when they first started tracking this number. So that's very significant because what it means is that that first time home buyer misses out on 10 years of appreciation in the value of their home and that potential savings. And as we've also talked about on the show recently, that person is just much older by the time they're making those investments in furniture and fabric and lighting and all of the things that go into the home industry. So it's a concern from that perspective. We've also just seen an uptick in more people walking away from a signed agreement. There was about 15% of home purchases were canceled in the month of September, which is up several percentage points, according to Redfin. And there's also this indication that more people are starting to seek out an adjustable rate mortgage, which became very popular during the, you know, great financial crisis when many people lost their homes because they were so overextended. So there are some things to be concerned about in all of this.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. It was interesting. Some of the articles that are coming out this week, one of them touched on how 52% more homes were delisted in September. That was a stat that jumped out to me. Just also how frozen this market is and how much it seems like sellers are willing to say we'll just wait, you know, that there. There isn't. That both sides are really sort of stuck looking for kind of a different outcome from the other side.

[A]

Exactly. And I think there's a growing perception that it's becoming more and more of a buyer's market, and we'll see how that plays out. We desperately need the market to move and for more homes to turn over. We thought that the recent rate cut would be the first of several rate cuts that were coming, and that was going to begin to grease the skids for much of the industry to sort of get ready for this next housing cycle. But what we learned instead on the day of the rate cut was that, first of all, the Fed chairman said that he's not at all certain that December is going to be another cut. And we also learned that there were actually two dissenting governors, one who we know was the recent Trump appointment, who we know was eager to lower rates even more. But another of the Fed governors thought there should be no rate cut at all because inflation is still so high. And there was a concern around that. So there's a lot of sort of conflicting data and messaging coming out of this, but certainly not the certainty and clarity that rates are headed dramatically lower in the near future.

[B]

What does it take to really make a change or shake things up here? Dennis, what do you think we need for the housing market to pick back up again?

[A]

So rates have come down to again, on any given day, somewhere between six and a quarter, 6.15. Many think that it needs to somehow break below six for it to be really meaningful. And part of the reason that these adjustable rate mortgages are a little appealing to people is that many of them have that rate that is a little bit lower.

[B]

Enticing.

[A]

Well, so people are willing to gamble. They're taking this lower rate in the hand now, knowing that in the next several years that rate could rise back up and it's built into the loan that it will unless rates come down dramatically. So it's a little bit of gambling. It's a little bit of. But it's the same way that we've talked about that where homebuilders have been attempting to lower the costs for potential buyers by buying down their mortgage for the first several years of the. Of the mortgage. And that has certainly been helpful. But again, those Rates creep back up after a couple of years, depending on the agreement. And it's again, it's just not at all clear. It's not at all clear that inflation is under control. It's not at all clear that an aggressive rate cut policy is about to happen. And therefore, for everything else to change, you've seen little or no reaction. In fact, I would say, if anything, you've seen the home building stocks and some of the big furniture companies that we follow quite regularly on the show. They've actually gone down in price, share price since the rate cut, which is counterintuitive and suggests again, that it's, that it's not smooth sailing.

[B]

I will say, I mean, just the fact that there are so many people who are eager for that adjustable rate mortgage does seem to suggest that there are so many people who are eager to be buying a home. You know, I don't know if that's a little bright spot on the horizon or not, but it just seems like the desire is there and there's just not quite the market conditions to make it happen.

[A]

Well, and I think that's a great point. And so often we talk about, okay, so what does this mean for designers? I think we always have to remember that designers are also people who also have homes of their own and may want to buy or sell them. So they too are sort of in this mix. And just because they tend to be servicing what we consider to be a more wealthy clientele that perhaps isn't as concerned about rates or other issues, there isn't anyone who doesn't have a challenge around housing in one way or another. So that's why we talk about it so much. That's why it's such a big issue, and as I say, was such a big issue in the recent elections. We'll see if anybody who was elected last night can actually do something meaningful about housing affordability. Lots of promises made, and we'll see what they can do. Stay tuned for that. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about accessible design.

[B]

Yeah. So for the New York Times last week, Dena Cheney wrote about the growing design options for homeowners who are aging in place. I love this article. We write about aging in place periodically on Business of Home, and it always feels like screaming into the void. It feels so important. And I just think that, you know, so many designers tell us how important it is to them to really help their customers live beautifully, live meaningfully, you know, find the support that they need from their homes. And it always Blows my mind that helping them age gracefully at home and helping them age safely at home and comfortably at home isn't more of a talking point in the industry or with clients.

[A]

Well, exactly. And striking to see the numbers that came out of AARP talking about 75% of adults who are 50 or older want to stay in their current home as they age, and 73% say they hope to stay in their community. So it sounds as if there's this overwhelming message from clients. Hey, I'd really like your help in.

[B]

Yet fewer than 4% of American homes have some of the basic features you would need to really do that safely. You know, there's a. There's a. I mean, maybe that's how you drum up some new business in a slow economy as you really start to focus on helping people age in place.

[A]

Well, it's interesting that I can't call to mind a lot of great product that is out there. I feel like I'm not getting pitched on sexy grab bars and easier to get out of bathtubs. I always thought, like, if things didn't work out for me with the pod, that I would be one of those guys that would be selling the bathtub with the door that swung open. Cause I feel like that's gotta be the next big thing for this whole group that we're talking about and. Sure, at least someone can design that better. Waterworks, I'm looking at you. Can we get like a copper version of that with the door that opens for something?

[B]

We were talking about this, though, right before we came on air, and I think this article does a really great job showcasing really beautiful interventions that feel less like, I don't know, like those like yellow and black caution gripper things on your stairs and more like artful solutions to help orient someone in a space, help someone navigate stairs, help someone navigate, you know, changing elevations or, you know, changing kind of terrain to pull a drawer open easier. You know, I love this idea that you can change your doorknobs to levers and use your doors a lot longer, you know, and kind of avoid a lot of the challenges of gripping and twisting a doorknob. You know, a lot of these changes don't necessarily require. Require a special product. They just require really thoughtful product selection and maybe a thoughtful conversation with a client as you're sourcing for their home.

[A]

Well, exactly as we were talking about before we came on air, I had shared a post not too long ago of a shower seat that a neighbor very kindly lent during a time where it was needed in our household. And I was bombarded from notes from designers who says, I'm going through this with my mom. I'm going through this with my dad. I thought, oh, my gosh, can't we have softer, better design things that. Things that are more uplifting. And I think we still have so many. There's so much paraphernalia around this industry that feels very hospital, surgical, clinical, right? Yes. Just very cold. And part of the reason I feel like people don't talk it up is, I don't know. That doesn't sound glamorous or cool or, hey, our new collection is helping people of a certain age get out of a chair. But I think more and more you go to high point. There's a lot of people of a certain age, so they could use help getting out of a chair. Somehow. This all needs to be brought to the public's attention more and I think also celebrated for when there is great design in this space, because I'm certain that it's out there. And again, I just want to be pitched about it so that I'm aware. So we can talk it up more.

[B]

No, we want to see it.

[A]

I know the custom sofa you're doing, but show me some of the custom hardware that you're doing to make all of this possible. So hopefully a lot more to come on that front. Moving on, we've got to talk about the next IT sofa, which means first we have to talk about the current IT sofa. In a recent piece for Dwell, Sammy Reese explored how Linea's Togo sofa shot to popularity during the pandemic and what might replace the must have piece as interest cools off. I don't know. Many people who wrote to me said the Togo is gonna be hard to replace.

[B]

Caitlin, I mean, you put a poll out on Instagram kind of about what comes after this sofa, but it sounds like, yeah, you've got a lot of warm love notes to the togo. Spoiler alert. That blows my mind. I hate this sofa, but wow.

[A]

Okay, Coming in hot. I like it.

[B]

Well, no, that's not. Not fair. I don't understand it, I'll say that. But it sounds like a lot of people in your DMs found a lot of appeal, and I would love to know what they loved about it or why they thought it's had such a moment.

[A]

You know, a lot of people think it's just such a classic design. Summer Thornton wrote in and is a big fan and. And loves to. Loves to throw some pattern textile on a Togo. The thing I See, the thing that a lot of people like about the Togo sofa is that you can do so many different things with it, right? And so many projects. You can throw some bright color. That cute little corduroy on there, look how cozy and warm that is. Caitlin. You can do leather, you can do.

[B]

I mean, but that's any sofa.

[A]

But does it look like a tube of toothpaste that's been sort of halfway gone through in the same way as the Togo? I don't know.

[B]

That was a very clever reference to the inspiration for this sofa. I don't know. So I went a different way. You pulled designers on Instagram. I went to Reddit and TikTok to see if I was alone in my dislike of this sofa. And I found some friends on the Internet. I'm not sure Reddit is always the best place to find friends on the Internet, but one of the things that I did take away sort of in appreciation for this piece from some of the pretty boisterous Reddit defense of it, was that, like, one, it's incredibly comfortable, it has a lot of style. I get that. And I think, like, that 70s aesthetic is definitely back in full force. Like, the appeal makes sense. I also think, like, aesthetically, there's maybe no other piece that could have like, broken from that sort of like retail driven, mid century modern look that's been everywhere for so long. So, like, I get it. I still don't. I don't know. I don't understand how this became the it sofa. I don't know why everyone loves it so darn much.

[A]

So let's give Michel Ducaroy, who designed the sofa for Lena Rose all the way back in 1973, let's give him his due. It wasn't wildly popular at first. There was some skepticism around it in the beginning. Others, like you out there, Caitlin, who couldn't wrap their head around it.

[B]

I read an interview with the great, great grandson of the Lean Rose founder, and he said that at the time, people thought the company had forgotten to build a base for it or ran out of time to finish it before the show. Like, that was the initial reception to this. And I will not lie. I read it and I was like, that trash. I like my sofas to have legs too.

[A]

You see. Now, interestingly, you bring up, and we're gonna bring this back to the conversation, we were just having the concern that many have.

[B]

It's hard to get out of.

[A]

Exactly. And imagine you're again this person of a certain age, or forget certain age, you're Just someone who has a hard time getting out of low sofas, as many designers wrote to me, is not a small concern. It sits low. You sort of sink into it a little bit and it's not always so easy to get in and out of. So that was a concern. And it sounds like that was a concern from the very beginning. To your point.

[B]

I was just thinking about though too, like the shape that your body takes to sit in. This sofa is so solitary. And I actually wonder for people who have lived with this sofa, is it a social sofa? So often at High Point we have conversations about how a piece lives, you know, in a group setting, how you can entertain with this piece. But I feel like the Togo is actually very designed to have you like slouch into it on your own and curve your spine so that you're looking at your phone. And I wonder if that is what makes it the perfect pandemic.

[A]

It's the perfect phone sofa. Right, there you go.

[B]

You're kind of like in this little like egg shaped cup looking down at your phone. But could you lean forward to engage in a conversation? Can you, you know, like, how does it, how does it move in a group? How does it support a social setting? I don't know, I have questions.

[A]

Well, I mean, it's interesting because. And many people had worked at a furniture store and had sold the Togo over the years before they became a designer or what have you. So they have all of those sentimental attachments to it.

[C]

But.

[A]

And also lots of it sounded like people's first apartment or. And the whole resale market for Togos is massive. I mean, there's a massive auction market, there's a massive resale. I mean, interestingly, many people weighed in and said, no, no, no, wait a minute. The it sofa is really, of course, the Mario Bellini Candeliona sofa. And everybody all agree with that notion. Another sofa that's also low and also hard for some people to get out of. And so again, another consideration, but that is the one that many people. I was surprised how many people were willing to weigh in and say, no, no, no, I'm totally over that and could I please you tell? So, I mean, listen, it did get a lot of exposure. It is a darn good looking sofa, particularly when you build one of those really long ones, right? And you just run it across the whole. I like this one, it's a good looking piece. But I think truthfully, people are going to get sick of anything that they see over and over again. And that is one of the challenges that so many designers have is that they say, oh, they used my favorite fabric. Now I feel like I can't use that anymore. And apparently the Togo and the Camellia Dylan sofa fell into that category that they just. They're just feeling perhaps overexposed. Their agents have been too good getting them bookings, and that's really the problem. But I'm so glad to hear your true feelings on all of this, Caitlin. You're kind to share, and hopefully I'm.

[B]

Making so many friends on the Internet.

[A]

I think you are. I think you are. And it's great that you've got some new friends on Reddit. I. I can't wait to hear more about what they have to say. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the latest industry new hires and Sean Lowe's advice on outsourcing procurement. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. Windows and doors might not be the flashiest part of a design project, but they can completely change the look and feel of a space. And when you're working with a trusted name like Renewal by Andersen, you know it's done right. Their interior designer loyalty program connects you with a dedicated expert who manages every detail so you can focus on your creative vision while earning exclusive rewards and trade discounts. It's smart, simple, and saves you time on every project, plus could be an additional revenue stream for your business. Apply today at renewalbyandersondesigner.com Terms and conditions apply. Coming soon to a design destination near you, Eichults is truly global now in 110 countries and expanding across the US shop European luxury furniture, lighting, accessories and more in New York, Miami, Los Angeles, Dallas and Atlanta, with Southern California and Las Vegas opening soon. Find a showroom or an authorized [e-mail] stores. That's E I C H-O-L-T Z.com stores. And now back to the show. Glad we're back. I'm joined now by designer Billy Cotton. Billy, so glad to have you back on the show.

[C]

Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

I'm delighted. And there's been a lot of buzz about you lately. Billy, let's get to that first. We have many things to talk about, but first and foremost, a video that people have seen apparently 8.5 million times is this incredible Architectural Digest house tour of of Lily Allen and David Harbour's home. That was such a big project for you and it's now suddenly back in the news in a big way. And you're mentioned in Lily Allen's latest album, Tell me how all of this showed up in your world and what you've made of it.

[C]

I'm super proud of the work that we did together. It was a beautiful home and a beautiful moment. We did, I think, something really special. And it's, you know, wild that it continues to resonate and be out there in the world. And, you know, I'm just, you know, I. As I said, I'm just really proud of that work.

[A]

When the album came out, did you know beforehand that she was planning to sort of tell some of that story? In the beginning, I had.

[C]

No. Yeah. No. I mean, you know, I know them both well, but, like, I didn't, you know, I was sort of of with everybody in the universe as this all happened.

[A]

Well, and how did you hear about it? At first it was funny when the album dropped, and then suddenly Billy Cotton gets sorted and the whole story of the townhouse, it's wild.

[C]

I mean, my ride in general has been pretty wild. So this is another amazing moment in the journey.

[A]

Well, and you're right, has been so wild. But the project itself getting viewed on such a large scale. I was thinking about when you and I last spoke, and early on in your career, there wasn't a way that people would have seen in such detail a video of your work and 8.5 million people, many of whom sort of weighed in with comments. Oh, I love this room. Oh, my gosh. The carpeted bathroom or the. The swans or all of that. And I wonder what it was like for you, seeing your work viewed on such a massive scale by such a wide audience.

[C]

I think it was special because of what it was. I think that there were so many important vendors and craftspeople and all this stuff that were in that project. I had these collaborators that didn't do what everyone else did, and I was sort of interested. I thought, oh, this is not really what's sort of being consumed on a large level right now within the design world. Yes. It was a different scale of reaction and engagement about it, which I thought was so wonderful that people were engaging in a dialogue about design and whether they liked it or they didn't like it, and that they were seeing something that they potentially had not seen in that place before, like on a mass scale, and they were talking and seeing craftsmanship.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

You know, like Sher Wagner and all these, you know, incredible vendors that are not, you know, that are not in spec houses and, you know, things that get more, maybe get more play in the zeitgeist. As designers, our portfolio and what we're known for is so often driven by the project that we did before, because that's what begets the next one. And so this was exciting in the way that I was able to work with New Bear and Pierre Frey in a way, these companies that I work with a lot, but just in a different palette than we'd worked with in the past.

[A]

The other thing that I'm curious about, so in the song lyrics of West End girl Lily Allen also talks about how it was feeling so expensive or it was more money than she thought she had or could spend. And it made me think about how I talked to so many designers lately who talk to me about the fact that things have gotten so expensive, a new build house is just so much more expensive than it was a few years ago. And everything along with it just seems to have really shot up in price and that it is causing some clients to pause or conversations to go on a little bit longer around the timing of projects. And I wonder, has that shown up in your world at all or if it's something that's noticeable to you in a meaningful way?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, of course, I mean, you saw what was it? I think. I mean, I'm not an economist, but, you know, my understanding is that in Covid, you know, construction costs, like on average went up around 30%. And the issue is, is that, you know, the market kind of reset in a way, so all of a sudden sort of new benchmark of what certain things cost. And so then when you have this type of inflation on top of a baseline quality problem, where we do not train skilled tradespeople in America in the same. We do not have this type of education and apprenticeship has moved into a very specialty category into what we would say is like a luxury thing. It has made the matrix of how we produce things of quality and how we sell things of great quality in a different way. It just has provided a greater challenge of how you think about designing because you do have to think about the cost per square foot and what that's going to mean and what that sample. And you're just not able to do it anymore just purely from a cost standpoint. So also, what is in this sort of dovetails into, you know, the conversation that we're going to have about ctk. But that was a lot of my. The genesis also of making sure that we were super involved in the back end of what was behind the walls because you're also dealing with a. You're dealing with an inflation of actual service costs. So having an understanding of what that is and making sure that you're communicating that with the client and going through that process and also level setting what the expectations of them, what their walls are going to be finished and the hard choices, you know, whether you deem them hard choices or whether you literally are just saying it's just going to look a little different and we're going to have to be more creative. You know, I think that that's now become part of our job as designers, is we just have to work with whatever reality we're working with, you know, and you can sort of fret over it and say, oh my God, this stuff has become more expensive or just deal with the real. You know, every project has a budget and that's part of our creativity.

[A]

So you referenced CTK and the firm that you formed in part to have greater control over many of the aspects of these projects. Tell us what CTK is and what it's all about.

[C]

CTK is an architecture firm, you know, and project management firm. And my two partners, Ilya Korolev and Jorg Chun and Ilya and I had worked for many years together when we were the interior designers or had been hired to do that. And we needed an architect in Ilya's sort of single person firm, would work with us and our clients often. And then I over the years had an architecture team within Billy Cotton that was drafting and doing things. I trained as an industrial designer early in my career. I. Part of the reason I went into interior design was because of my interest in construction and my interest in not only how the curtains looked, but how the walls, how you, how you switched on the lights in a room. Like all of the stuff that plays with the world of architecture. So it always had been sort of this collaborating with outside people, collaborating with Ilya, trying to build a team of people in, within our office who could straddle these different worlds. And Jorg and I had known each other for some years and then he came, you know, he came into the fold and me and him and Ilya said, look, this is really, this is something more. This is, you know, we have the chance to really build something special and be able to create a standalone company that can work in concert with Billy Cotton, but that also is going to be able to create architecture in its own right and in a dialogue between the three of us and our clients.

[A]

So the two firms coexist and you're involved in both and not. Right. And each firm might be working on separate projects or are you always working? I mean, is Billy Cotton the design firm always brought in to a CTK project or. Not necessarily.

[C]

Not necessarily. I mean, we. We work with many architecture firms, you know, that are not ctk. Many people bring us in just to do decoration. And, you know, I like to think that we're good collaborators with. With architects. And part of what CTK has also been able to provide is that. That we are better interior designers as well for those architecture firms that we're collaborating with, because we're able to aid with drawings, you know, we're able to aid with the interior side of the drawing sets in a much more comprehensive way and just be a more informed and intelligent collaborator. But it's exciting. I mean, we're just. Every week seems to bring a different chapter. So.

[A]

Well, so having had this other firm now for a while, is it something that you would recommend to peers, to colleagues? Would you say, hey, yeah, you should do this, you should bring an architectural firm into the mix?

[C]

I mean, look, I don't. Yeah, depends on your. Depends on your bandwidth for, for challenge. I mean, I think every, you know, I was re. This is such a unique situation that I had this, you know, over a decade of working with Ilya, you know, alongside him, working with me, him understanding me. Same with York like that. This is sort of like merger of these three things and to create a, you know, to own. To be at the helm of two companies is complex, you know, and. And I don't know whether I'd recommend for those, you know, I don't have children, so that's, you know, if you want to.

[A]

If you have more commitments and broader life that you need to have, then, yes, maybe don't do that. But. Well, and. And as you referenced, and also sandwiched within all of that is the Billy Cotton product side of the business. And there's always. I mean, there have been times where that was a huge part of what you were doing. And the design work, I get a sense, has taken a huge role in things. But tell me a little bit about what's going on on the product side. And specifically, I'm. I'm interested to learn more about this collaboration with good friend of the show, Lulu Little at Sohn, and they're very excited about your collaboration. So tell me about that.

[C]

No, it's been a dream. It's just been. It's honestly, like, I really feel like I'm sort of. If I'm Somebody who, if we use the metaphor of mountain climbing, you know, and I'm somebody who like, loves to climb mountains zone and what she does and what she's, you know, and what Lulu's does and as built as kind of the Everest, you know, like, it's really extraordinary, the level of care and commitment to what to the earth and to design and to making of things. Yes, as I said, it's the core of how I started. It's, you know, where I. Where I began. And yes, that was sort of always the thought that this was going to be what I did. And the rest was kind of in effort of that. The universe has wanted different things for me. And it wasn't for me to be, you know, wasn't for me to be solely making goods for the home. That was part of my journey to Ralph was to sort of, you know, and blow my life in product design and all of that. Before I did that, I had a company which we made things. And Jonathan Pastier, who is the lead industrial designer here at my company, he's really been my sort of. In the same way that Ilya and York are my partners in the making of buildings, Jonathan is really my partner in the making of things. And what we do together is so special. He was with me at Ralph. He was with me for six years before that making things. And so when Lulu came to me and said, here's this idea, and both Jonathan and I just said, well, we cannot pass this opportunity to make things in this way because there really is a handful of companies that are making things at this level of quality and this level of craftsmanship. There's even a smaller group of companies that are doing them across categories. And what I did think was exciting is I said, lulu, you know, this is. I feel like, you know, you're making new things and you're designing new things, and you're one of the few companies that are able to do this. And I really, I want you to be known as a design company, you know, not just a company that makes tools for decoration, but a company that is making innovative new, you know, design and is able to dialogue with that other, with the more sort of traditional product design world that exists in Salone and exists in the business of home of it all on some level, but is also as kind of its own conversation happening outside of the world of the decorator.

[A]

I'm curious knowing all of the product design work that you've done in the past at a whole range of different price points, and obviously you've partnered With West Elm and others in the past. What is different in this kind of a collaboration where you just have such a wide range of craftsmanship and product.

[C]

Available to you, you just don't have the same limitations, you know, it's just not, and it's not even, I mean, and that's the way that Lulu works is like there's not, there's no limits, you know, there's no limits on your dream, like when you are working for a more a company that is servicing millions of people and working on a retail level. Because Lulu, you know, son, is primarily for the trade. And so, and it's made to order, so it's less of an inventory based, you know, business which has a completely different matrix. You're not dealing with merchants who have the same pressure of like, what it means for them to order, you know, for us to design something and have the inventory and have their jobs on the line if like die inventory doesn't sell. And there's like a lot of data and science that's going into making sure that that collaboration is a success on a commercial level. And so of course we talked about that and we talked about the customer and we talked about, I always will ask that. I mean, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to be the cause of a detriment to anyone's business in my, in my collaborations. But, but, and so we talked about what sold well and what people, you know, reacted to and things, but she really allowed for just a really open Runway of what could happen from a design standpoint.

[A]

Well, and as you were just describing, it's so interesting to come out with a collaboration that touches on so many different product categories. Here you are having fabric and wallpaper and lighting and there's leather and there's rattan and, and I wonder for you, thinking about the work that you're doing right now or how you're feeling creatively right now, what did this collection mean to you? How were you thinking about it? It sounds as if you had worked with Soane in the past and that was part of why it felt natural to approach you about making product. But what does it tell us about what, what Billy Cotton is doing these days?

[C]

Everything, you know, like it's everything, you know, like I, you know, maybe to my detriment, but I do not shy away from all of these different facets of the world of design and decoration, you know, and I, I, I love diving into a floral archive, you know, just as I like, you know, obsessing over designing a custom screw head. Like it's not the, the chaos and the beauty of my brain. And what it allows when you look at the totality of the collection is that it allows for you to see into those different worlds of how we're able to think about color and textile and texture and all that stuff and then how we're able to think about structure and form and function and in a super way. And so it's like really being able to see it all. And one of the things that it's very hard right now in this world that we're in, there's a lot of stuff around noise. We're just confronted with so much noise from media, from this new technological thing that we're all in. And the things that I've always wanted to make are actually relatively quiet, you know, and I knew, I knew where the world was going. Like I saw the world of art design mix and this kind of like more craft based design happening at a really high level. People that I admire greatly. But that is not necessary. That was not who I was. You know, I did not, I was not making things myself. I was not interested in that personally in terms of the design work. Like the stuff that I was drawing was much more simple and much more quiet. And that, that's a hard thing from a commercial standpoint. You know, that's. It's just, it just purely is because of the way that we are right now, you know, unless it, unless you are in a big company, you know, unless it's like a utility company or something like this. And nobody would hire me to design a basic sofa but Lulu, her customer is because of the intimacy of the sales experience and because of, because of the business that she built, it allowed, you know, for us to really create these things that you have to get close to them to understand. You know, like you. The lounge chair, like a lot of people don't see, but like the superstructure of that is all stitched leather. You know, they say, oh, it's metal frame. I said, no, no, it's leather. Like she has literally the, the queen's ex, you know, saddler, like stitching these, these leather pieces. I mean, this is totally wild. And, and, and so I think that that is also what this sort of opens the portal to. And what you can sort of see is these details, you know, and this. I think a lot of people would laugh to think of me as quiet because I'm not really the quietest person in the world, but the things I like to design are. I Don't know what that means, but.

[A]

You know, well, there's a quiet. But there's also, to your point about the leather and the seat that you were just talking about, there's a great depth, and often you have to look closer. You have to take a second look with your work to see the full depth of it.

[C]

That's a huge compliment, and I really appreciate it. And. And I don't take that lightly. And that is, in some ways the goal, you know, is that I think that there's. And even from the beginning that I knew. I always knew this even about myself, like, personally. From a forgetting personal here like that. It's just not that I want to go further, you know, I want to have a longer conversation. I want to have a deeper dialogue. I want it to be harder. I want it to be more complex. And I think for a long time I was concerned that this was a negative because I knew from a portfolio, you know, just from a purely aesthetic standpoint, it was difficult for a customer maybe to process that. You know, it wasn't the easiest thing to sell. It didn't lend itself to a signature, you know, signature look.

[A]

Yeah. How's that signature look coming along?

[C]

Yeah, it's not going very well. It's not. We've long left. That has been left behind. But I do hope that that is the signature, in many ways, that we are requiring the second look. They sort of know that from having seen the work before.

[A]

So they know there's again, I mean, we joke. There's no signature look. There's no house style at Philly gotten right.

[C]

That would be the hope. I mean, if you say that, I'm going to accept that and say it's the highest compliment, you know, because. And I think that that's. That's what I say with the people who are not wanting to facsimile. No. You know, I. I don't think I've ever had a client ever come to me and say, I would like what I saw in that X project in your book, like, or. Or from this magazine, like, please create that work again. You know, I've had clients say, like, I don't even like your work.

[A]

But what do you mean?

[C]

Like, I mean, I've had, you know, I have one amazing glad. Who's like my. One of my best clients. But she pushed me and she liked me as a person, and she liked my brain and she liked my rigor and she liked the way that I did things, but she did not necessarily like my taste. This person hated Old things. Things pages.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

And I love, you know, I love old things, you know, and because I love old things, a lot of what is in my portfolio is like, you know, there's a lot of antiques in. All of my dealer friends will tell you the same. But, like, you know, and so she. We would joke about this like, that she did not like, but we then created something that was amazing and that was hers, you know, and she knew that I could do that. She knew I had the skill and the resources to be able to pull together what she needed.

[A]

So she says, despite the fact that I'm not really crazy about your work, I like you so much and believe in you that we're going to be able to make this work. And then you did it sounds like.

[C]

Yeah. Not that everyone likes me, but she does.

[A]

Well, I mean, I can imagine that some people might find it a lot to understand. Right. You're complex, Billy. You're not. Right.

[C]

You're not your average Joe. That's another kind way of saying it.

[A]

Well, but I do think, I mean, and you were talking earlier about the algorithms. It's so interesting to me to see how much of the work today seems to be narrowing and looking so similar. Right. And whether that's the algorithms or whether it's that we're all seeing those same pieces and gravitating towards those. And the challenge for the industry is how do we stay ahead of that or step away from that and keep changing the work? I mean, and not even to mention AI, which is just generating all of these images based on all these. Of this work that we've seen. Right. I don't know if that's showing up for you in a. In a meaningful.

[C]

Well, this is why we depend on, you know, and I'm glad that you do a lot of work with the New York, you know, School of Interior Design. And like, you know, I'm. I'm very focused on, you know, the next generation of creative people. And I think that we are always going to be in a place of creative challenge and thinking about how we evolve. So it's. It's more like, okay, that exists.

[A]

This.

[C]

So it's not like, oh, it's over. Like, it's. This is. Everything will now be the same. It's just like, okay, this happened, you know, and now this is a sort of new. A new challenge and a new reality and. And how do we work within that framework? And I think there's, like, you know, there is just a million people doing such beautiful, incredible, original work. Look at Soane. They're thriving, they're growing, they're doing all of these things. And it's the complete opposite of all of this. You know, Lulu's building a village for. For apprenticeship and craftsmanship and the whole thing. So there will always be multiple routes in this world. I'm excited by it. I like, you know, I like learning about it. I don't, you know, I'm super un tech savvy myself, but, like, I love being surrounded by people who are and like, like, you know, I just always think of it as, like, if there's more ways to be able to communicate an idea, then great. That's always going to be our biggest challenge, is to take what is in our head and be able to hand it over to somebody who is not. Who did not go through our training and is not looking at, you know, thinking about things exactly in the same way. So the more tools that we have to do that, then the better and the more efficient. I do like efficiency.

[A]

Yes, well, and I like that take on all of it. I promised your team that I would get you out of here on time, Billy. So I sadly have to wrap up this conversation. But it is always great to speak with you and I thank you so much for making the time and I'm going to get you to nice it. So I'm glad that you mentioned that because I'm going to.

[C]

I'm a big fan of what you do there and what they do there. And, you know, I do think it's so important that we are. That we are investing in training and in our design and arts education here in our country. It's really one of my big passions and I hope that the more that I develop in this business, I'm able to give back back in that world.

[A]

And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Caitlyn, what caught your eye?

[B]

This is less something that caught my eye and more of a shameless plug. But I am looking for some strong designer opinions this week as I put the finishing touches on a presentation presentation I've been working on. So I offered some strong opinions earlier. Now I'm looking for yours. I am speaking next week at the American Home Furnishings alliance annual meeting, and I'll be talking about a surprising gap that we found in a recent industry survey. We polled manufacturers and designers about their relationship with one another and found that While the vast majority of manufacturers felt overwhelmingly positive about their relationship relationship with their designer clients, designers didn't report feeling the same way. And that gap is really interesting. I've been holding a couple focus groups that explore what trade program perks are valuable versus what designers couldn't care less about. I've been asking a lot about what inspires brand loyalty, what makes you want to shop with a brand, what's a deal breaker that makes you say, I'm good for now. And basically, if designers listening have anything that they want their manufacturer partners to know about how you wish the industry worked, but how you wish they sold product to you, I really want to hear from you. So my DMs are open, my inbox is open, and I just, I'm ready for the hot takes. But, you know, I'm excited because going to this annual meeting, the audience for this presentation really, really are the leaders of some of the biggest furniture companies in the US who can take that feedback and make meaningful changes. And that's really what I'm hoping to kickstart next week. Dennis, what caught your eye this week?

[A]

Well, a couple things. One is we're on First Dibs earnings alert on Friday. We're going to hear from the company. And we're so curious because as we mentioned in a recent show, First Dibs stock has been jumping out of its recent base and is up, depending on the time of day, more than 30% in in recent weeks. And so we're curious, is this some big news that's coming or is somebody just trying to position themselves ahead of earnings? I don't know. We'll see. But it would be fun if there was something exciting to report. I've been eager to have some some good news to share about First Dibs for some time. So stay tuned for that. Exactly. In the meantime, as we've been coming on air, something that has been happening in real time is is a riveting live stream from both the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times and even NPR is live streaming the the testimony that's going on on in front of the Supreme Court about. Yes, that's right, President Trump's tariffs. And early signs are that apparently some of the conservative justices on the court are a little skeptical that the president indeed has the power to employ tariffs in the way that he has. So stock market was down earlier in the day and has actually completely turned around and gone up several hundred points on speculation that maybe some of the tariffs will be rolled back. That is a big fat maybe. And nobody should be counting too much on this, but it is, it is a major case in front of the courts and, and something that many people have been pinning hopes to that perhaps some of these tariffs get dialed back one way or another. Heaven knows on here on Tariff Talk. We'll be tracking it and, and following up on it quite, quite carefully. But we, it sounds like the courts won't actually be ruling on this for a while, so we'll be waiting with bated breath. But early, early indications sound like they're a little skeptical, so it is definitely something to watch. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us [e-mail] if you want to get in touch with the show, write to [e-mail] this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.